A single HD format does not stifle competition. Two formats hurt the consumer (us). Here's why:

For the sake of argument let's just assume that Universal goes neutral and consequently HD DVD dies off and we end up with Blu-ray as the victor (Or insert your own HD DVD wins scenario... it doesn't matter). Some of you argue that if this happens prices would remain high for both players and software due to a lack of competition.

This is not true.

While we have all been so wrapped up in this Red vs. Blu debacle, some of us have lost sight that there are really no "teams" in this game. It's every studio for itself fighting for your cash. Do you think Fox is happy when Disney sell a Blu-ray disc? They aren't. They're only happy when you buy a Fox disc. Hell, even Sony, while indirectly benefitting from any Blu-ray sales, still would rather you buy *their* discs. Universal is not happy when you buy a Warner HD DVD. The studios want your money and they don't care how they get it.

Competition has always been between the studios. Fox won't keep selling overpriced Blu-ray discs if everybody buys cheaper and better produced Warner Bros. Blu-ray discs instead. Sure, the movies are exclusive to the studio, but for all but the biggest blockbuster you're usually picking between a handful of movies you liked equally well from a handful of different studios. In these situations, you'll probably go with the cheaper/better disc. People choose on content and people choose on price. This is something all of us following red vs. blu should know all too well by now.

Same goes for the players. Even without HD DVD, Blu-ray manufacturers will all fight with each other over price. A $400 Toshiba Blu-ray player will be just as compelling as a $400 Toshiba HD DVD player. Sony's new player will necessitate lower prices from all Blu-ray manufacturers in order to stay competitive (except for Pioneer as they are intentionally shooting for the high/expensive end). It's not like Sony and Samsung and Panasonic and Pioneer are holding hands and skipping on the playground... they're going to fight each other tooth and nail to get your money.

DVD is a single format and the prices there are insanely good. Cheap discs, cheap players... all because everything is selling in such high volume. Just like DVD, there will be more than enough competition on a single high-def format to keep things reasonable. The only thing that will prevent a trend toward more reasonable prices is a stalemate. If high-def is relegated to a niche product, then there won't be enough volume to achieve the economies of scale necessary to reach DVD-level prices. We already had an example of this: Laserdisc.

A single format will improve pricing as it creates a chance for mass-market penetration and thus a chance for DVD-style volume. Two co-existing formats will fracture that volume and will essentially force high def to a niche and we end up with Laserdisc 2.0. Format neutrality is a short-term solution that causes a long-term problem. It's not the answer.

Yeah, but I already have an HD DVD plauer, so I'd like to see it succeed to avoid having to buy a new player that, currently, is significantly more expensive than the $300 I paid for my A1. Besides, I'm just having fun with the whole war thing. It's entertaining all on its own.

Format neutrality is a short-term solution that causes a long-term problem. It's not the answer.
Truth.

There's nothing wrong with neutrality for the moment as a HT enthusiast because the number of format neutral people is very very small compared to the whole, but the people who actually want format neutrality to become the norm are missing the big picture of what happens if they get their wish.

I don't think the format competition harms consumers. There still isn't a fully functional blu-ray player. Heck, if Toshiba hadn't released their fully functional hd-dvd players, we still might not have a hd player on the market yet. Due to the competition, both sides are forced to give firmware updates and compete on price.

Yeah, but I already have an HD DVD plauer, so I'd like to see it succeed to avoid having to buy a new player that, currently, is significantly more expensive than the $300 I paid for my A1. Besides, I'm just having fun with the whole war thing. It's entertaining all on its own.

Agree. I have HD-DVD and the financial means to afford Blu-ray (barely though), but it just sickens me to think that my money going to buy a PS3 and BD movies could push HD-DVD to an early grave. Even though I'm a hardcore gamer I'm seriously thinking of postponing my purchase of PS3 (and the BD movies that would go with that) until 2008 to deny Sony my HD cash. My DVD and HDTV upconverting methods yield satisfactory results; "Casino Royale" is SD will be plenty for me until HD-DVD can prove throughout the rest of '07 whether it has the resolve to stay in this for the long haul. If it can't then in '08 I'll go BD and enjoy paying less for the privilege. :D

I don't think the format competition harms consumers. There still isn't a fully functional blu-ray player. Heck, if Toshiba hadn't released their fully functional hd-dvd players, we still might not have a hd player on the market yet. Due to the competition, both sides are forced to give firmware updates and compete on price.

HD-DVD as we know it wouldn't exist if it weren’t for Blu-ray.

HD-DVD as we know it wouldn't exist if it weren’t for Blu-ray.

Yup, we would be watching red-laser 720p HD-lite.

This situation has to be some kind of record. It may well be the first time that A/V enthusiasts are complaining about having to buy a new fancy A/V gadget.

And if it weren't for HD-DVD, BR owners would still be savoring the grainalicious and wonderfully artifacted quality of the first BR releases...

Yup, we would be watching red-laser 720p HD-lite.

exactly

Yup, we would be watching red-laser 720p HD-lite.
No, most likely we would have 3 layer 15gb discs that could hope 2 1/2 hours of 1080p video with DTS and DD. Just like cable, but without the transmission issues. Make those discs some mpeg 4 variant and hello 3 1/2 hours.

Competition helps for the short term. You wouldn't see the cutting of prices in the hardware, software deals, more interactive features, bigger capacity, etc. without the current competition between Blu Ray and HD DVD. It's essential that it happened. In the end it may resolve itself to a winner and of course that's what competition is supposed to do. So us neutral guys are in fact helping in the overall competition. Who harms the consumer is people getting on their soap boxes and speaking down to the consumer as it they know what's good for them. Wonder who that could be?

I can see the point the OP is making. In the long term, this particular format squabble (I can't call it a war anymore...not with 6 82nd Airborn solderies dying yesterday), the competition would do harm to the viablity of HD discs to survive.

We're not at the long term yet. This issue should be settled in the next two to three years, which would give the technology time to mature and cheapen enough for J6P and his family to buy a HDTV and then want the 1080P DVDs.

Right now, since HD is still a niche (rapidly growing, but still a niche) market, the competition is good for consumers. Eventually, when the squabble over who'se format is better finishes, then the prices and HDTVs per household should be enough to support a large scale transfer to the new HD/BD production. By then, everyone will producing whatever the better HD disc is, and the other format will fade into obscurity.

OR combo players will become the norm because someone makes on cheap. Then it doesn't matter which format you choose, you have a player for it. I don't see the BD camp or the HD camp in any hury to give up.

The only problem is that of J6P. It's going to be a tough sell to get average users to fork over more moeny for the same discs they have for an improvement that might not really matter to them. IF both camps aren't careful, they will end up as a small niche market place while DVD continues to chug along.

No, most likely we would have 3 layer 15gb discs that could hope 2 1/2 hours of 1080p video with DTS and DD. Just like cable, but without the transmission issues. Make those discs some mpeg 4 variant and hello 3 1/2 hours.

Just like all of the three layer discs that we see now?

This situation has to be some kind of record. It may well be the first time that A/V enthusiasts are complaining about having to buy a new fancy A/V gadget.

We've certainly have seen endless complaining about the concept of spending the nominal amounts for that new fancy A/V gadget.

Gary

I would argue we all have gained by competition- and this competition may be the most important step in assuring the long term survival of one or both formats...

Lets recap-

Blu-Ray launched w/ $1000 plus players
Initial blu ray releases were of inferior quality
There was no incentive to price product because they already "won"

BOTH parties should be be extremely thankful for the "format war"-

Do you think Sony would have released a $599 player if toshiba didn't aggressively price their player?

Do you think FOX would sell a Blu-Ray disc for less than $30 w/o competition from HD DVD?

Do you think there would be a 50% off sale at Amazon w/o the pressure from HD DVD?

Do you think Sony would have packaged Talladega Nights and Casino Royale w/ PS3s w/o the HD DVD add on from MS?

Do you think Toshiba would be offering 5 free movies w/ a player if not for Blu-ray?

Do you think we would have 2nd generation toshiba players this fast w/o Blu ray?

Do you think the "value" players from Chinese firms would be courted this soon if not for the competition?

Do you really think you would be seeing day/date and tier one blockbuster releases if both sides were not trying to gain advantage?- look how long this took w/ DVD

Do you think you would have numerous firmware updates if there was no competition?

Ultimately if one side prevails or if both exist as "niche" products we will end up w/ sub $300 players, consistent quality releases, and reasonably priced software all within a YEAR OF LAUNCH.

This would not have happened if there were only "One Format"

Please don't believe Sony, FOX, Toshiba, or MS has your interests at heart- this is all about generating revenue- none of these companies care about you or deserve your blind support.

Cheers Kevin

I would argue we all have gained by competition- and this competition may be the most important step in assuring the long term survival of one or both formats...

Lets recap-

Blu-Ray launched w/ $1000 plus players
Initial blu ray releases were of inferior quality
There was no incentive to price product because they already "won"

BOTH parties should be be extremely thankful for the "format war"-

Do you think Sony would have released a $599 player if toshiba didn't aggressively price their player?

Do you think FOX would sell a Blu-Ray disc for less than $30 w/o competition from HD DVD?

Do you think there would be a 50% off sale at Amazon w/o the pressure from HD DVD?

Do you think Sony would have packaged Talladega Nights and Casino Royale w/ PS3s w/o the HD DVD add on from MS?

Do you think Toshiba would be offering 5 free movies w/ a player if not for Blu-ray?

Do you think we would have 2nd generation toshiba players this fast w/o Blu ray?

Do you think the "value" players from Chinese firms would be courted this soon if not for the competition?

Do you really think you would be seeing day/date and tier one blockbuster releases if both sides were not trying to gain advantage?- look how long this took w/ DVD

Do you think you would have numerous firmware updates if there was no competition?

Ultimately if one side prevails or if both exist as "niche" products we will end up w/ sub $300 players, consistent quality releases, and reasonably priced software all within a YEAR OF LAUNCH.

This would not have happened if there were only "One Format"

Please don't believe Sony, FOX, Toshiba, or MS has your interests at heart- this is all about generating revenue- none of these companies care about you or deserve your blind support.

Cheers Kevin

Good post. This is definitely a case where competition is beneficial to us all.
J

Yup, we would be watching red-laser 720p HD-lite.


And it would be adopted by the masses, who wouldn't notice the difference between it and blu-ray, but the players and disc would be at DVD levels in price.

That was probably what needed to happen, in retrospect. That was exactly what the consumers would have wanted at a price they could afford. Now we are left wondering why no one wants pay all the extra money to buy into these blue-laser fomat players and disc.

This thing could have been done and overwith 2 years ago.

And it would be adopted by the masses, who wouldn't notice the difference between it and blu-ray, but the players and disc would be at DVD levels in price.

That was probably what needed to happen, in retrospect. That was exactly what the consumers would have wanted at a price they could afford. Now we are left wondering why no one wants pay all the extra money to buy into these blue-laser fomat players and disc.

This thing could have been done and overwith 2 years ago.

True, but I prefer it this way, I like proper HD, with 1080line resolution. 720p can't cut it against a proper 1080i/p source.

Just think, are we the masses?

True, but I prefer it this way, I like proper HD, with 1080line resolution. 720p can't cut it against a proper 1080i/p source.

Just think, are we the masses?

I have a 720P projector, so it wouldn't matter to me. But I bet that 720P upscaled would look remarkably similar to 1080.

In retrospect, I wish this whole format war would have been solved 2 years ago by going to 720P, DD+, Advanced codec, with DVD interactivity. It would have been really cheap, and would have looked as good to 95% of the people as what we are getting out of the blu-laser formats. We would have $50 HD DVD players and pretty mass adoption by now.

I have a 720P projector, so it wouldn't matter to me. But I bet that 720P upscaled would look remarkably similar to 1080.

In retrospect, I wish this whole format war would have been solved 2 years ago by going to 720P, DD+, Advanced codec, with DVD interactivity. It would have been really cheap, and would have looked as good to 95% of the people as what we are getting out of the blu-laser formats. We would have $50 HD DVD players and pretty mass adoption by now.

When you update you projector to a 1080 line one, you will notice the difference pretty quickly, I did when we changed from a 720p 46" (Sharp) screen to a 1080p 52" (Sony) screen, I guess your screen size will be even bigger as you have a projector. It really is worth it, and not because Sony said so. 720p upscaled from SkyHD on my screen is not as god as 1080i from the BBC, and this is b/c HD.

IMO you are simply dead wrong.

Do you think Fox is happy when Disney sell a Blu-ray disc?

At this point in the ballgame, yes I do think they are happy, because it indicates an interest in the format. From the studios point of view, any sale is a good sale. If no one bought titles, then HD optical formats would be dead. So, the answer is yes they are happy.

A $400 Toshiba Blu-ray player will be just as compelling as a $400 Toshiba HD DVD player

While true, if that $499 Toshiba HD DVD player had never existed, then IMO you would not have seen the price drops in BD hardware that you have seen. All, or most of the players would have remained right around $1K. So the competition put some downward pressure on pricing.

I would argue we all have gained by competition- and this competition may be the most important step in assuring the long term survival of one or both formats...

Lets recap-

Blu-Ray launched w/ $1000 plus players
Initial blu ray releases were of inferior quality
There was no incentive to price product because they already "won"

BOTH parties should be be extremely thankful for the "format war"-

Do you think Sony would have released a $599 player if toshiba didn't aggressively price their player?

Do you think FOX would sell a Blu-Ray disc for less than $30 w/o competition from HD DVD?

Do you think there would be a 50% off sale at Amazon w/o the pressure from HD DVD?

Do you think Sony would have packaged Talladega Nights and Casino Royale w/ PS3s w/o the HD DVD add on from MS?

Do you think Toshiba would be offering 5 free movies w/ a player if not for Blu-ray?

Do you think we would have 2nd generation toshiba players this fast w/o Blu ray?

Do you think the "value" players from Chinese firms would be courted this soon if not for the competition?

Do you really think you would be seeing day/date and tier one blockbuster releases if both sides were not trying to gain advantage?- look how long this took w/ DVD

Do you think you would have numerous firmware updates if there was no competition?

Ultimately if one side prevails or if both exist as "niche" products we will end up w/ sub $300 players, consistent quality releases, and reasonably priced software all within a YEAR OF LAUNCH.

This would not have happened if there were only "One Format"

Please don't believe Sony, FOX, Toshiba, or MS has your interests at heart- this is all about generating revenue- none of these companies care about you or deserve your blind support.

Cheers KevinThanks Kevin. I was going to chime in as I completely disagree with the OP's thread title and statement, but I think you summed it up pretty well.

Someone (not me) said that the benefits of the format "war" were already gained by the end of 2006. This largely applies to HD DVD prodding Sony to improve their mastering/codec support and get off their asses with BD-J and Blu-ray keeping HD DVD prices honest (without Blu-ray, Toshiba would be a monopoly).

I will admit that the benefits of the opposing format are lopsided. Blu-ray has a healthy mix of studios and manufacturers to keep things honest. HD DVD is somewhat of a monopoly without Blu-ray.

There is no doubt the initial format threat reaped some benefits (mostly highlighting certain technical deficiencies). But now, in 2007, the technology has largely settled and there isn't much to compete on. At this point, we're losing more than we are gaining from the fight.

Kevink109 lists a bunch of events that have happened and attributes ALL of them to the fact that there is a format war. This is faulty logic. Again, competition is healthy on DVD. Why does it work there but somehow high-def needs two warring formats?

I would argue we all have gained by competition- and this competition may be the most important step in assuring the long term survival of one or both formats...

Lets recap-

Blu-Ray launched w/ $1000 plus players
Initial blu ray releases were of inferior quality
There was no incentive to price product because they already "won"

BOTH parties should be be extremely thankful for the "format war"-

Do you think Sony would have released a $599 player if toshiba didn't aggressively price their player?

Yes I do. Do you think Sony was happy to watch Samsung sell more players due to their lower price? There is already competition in the Blu-camp with or without HD DVD. Why is Toshiba a bigger competitor than Panasonic or Sony or Samsung just because the format is different?

Do you think FOX would sell a Blu-Ray disc for less than $30 w/o competition from HD DVD?

Yes I do. Don' t you think lower priced Warner and Disney titles on Blu-ray are a bigger concern to them than something that's happening in a format that they have nothing to do with? If Universal started producing Blu-ray discs do you honestly think that makes them LESS of a competitor to Fox and Disney simply because they are on the same format? That's just silly.

Do you think there would be a 50% off sale at Amazon w/o the pressure from HD DVD?

That this sale had anything to do with HD DVD is one of the more outlandish claims I see on these forums. Don't certain DVD's from certain studios go on sale as well? Give me one shred of evidence that this sale is due to HD DVD rather than the more likely explanation of studios liquidating excess inventory for certain titles?

Do you think Sony would have packaged Talladega Nights and Casino Royale w/ PS3s w/o the HD DVD add on from MS?

Ha. Do you think the HD DVD add-on would exist if not for the PS3. Sony was always pushing the PS3 as a Blu-ray device so it is not "crazy" to assume they would throw in a disc to help promote that. This is simple cross-promotion between their divisions (just like the coupon book that came with the PS3... I suppose that was caused by HD DVD as well).

Do you think Toshiba would be offering 5 free movies w/ a player if not for Blu-ray?

On this you have more of a point since Toshiba has no competition in HD DVD world. Since they have NO competition, it's obvious that their only enemy is the other format, but I think if Blu-ray didn't exist and everybody was making HD DVD players Toshiba would need to be even MORE aggressive.

Do you think we would have 2nd generation toshiba players this fast w/o Blu ray?

Yes. The early players were buggy and expensive to produce. They want to reduce cost as early as possible to make more profit.

Do you think the "value" players from Chinese firms would be courted this soon if not for the competition?

I'm not sure how much the hardware manufacturers want these players out there. Other than some HD DVD publicists threatening their existence and some CES prototypes, I don't see them really being "courted". Do you think Toshiba really WANTS to compete with these?

Do you really think you would be seeing day/date and tier one blockbuster releases if both sides were not trying to gain advantage?- look how long this took w/ DVD

The studios would do this to one-up each other. Has nothing to do with format.

Do you think you would have numerous firmware updates if there was no competition?

Yes. Unhappy customers are unhappy customers.

Ultimately if one side prevails or if both exist as "niche" products we will end up w/ sub $300 players, consistent quality releases, and reasonably priced software all within a YEAR OF LAUNCH.

This would not have happened if there were only "One Format"

Wrong. If HD sales are split down the middle between enthusiasts and J6P never jumps aboard because things are too confusing and insecure, we don't see reasonable prices because economies of scale don't apply (like LD). Did you not get the entire point of my original post?

Please don't believe Sony, FOX, Toshiba, or MS has your interests at heart- this is all about generating revenue- none of these companies care about you or deserve your blind support.

Probably the only thing we are in utter agreement on.

Padriac,

I'm not sure how much the hardware manufacturers want these players out there. Other than some HD DVD publicists threatening their existence and some CES prototypes, I don't see them really being "courted". Do you think Toshiba really WANTS to compete with these?

My hunch is that Toshiba would like to see the players out there if it "wins" to format war, because then they get all the money from the patents and royalties. So, in some respects, I dont think Toshiba sees it as competition.

It's every studio for itself fighting for your cash. Do you think Fox is happy when Disney sell a Blu-ray disc?

This competition only goes so far. Although the studios compete they also have common interests.

For instance Hollywood has a common an interest in moving consumers to high def both to reignite interest in disk sales in general and to get some stronger security in place so they can fight piracy.

The industry also jointly wants to make the highest prices as possible on their products and cannot neccessrily be "trusted" not to collude to maintain higher prices. This is why there is laws against such anti-competitive agreements because the free market by itself doesn't always lead to competition as intended, at least not without legal enforcments. (and often competition fails even with the laws in place)

Are users here really so naive as to belive that once a format dies the greater good of consumer interest will suddenly take hold on these mega corps? Do they really have such great record of championing the consumer interest in other areas?

Is there no chance that a less competitive landscape might not be seen as a chance to start recouping some R&D costs from HD hungry consumers and to start pulling back on some of these investments in pushing a given format forward?

I never stated that we "needed" this format battle- but it has accelerated the improvement of both formats- I do not want to claim that HD DVD causes Sony to do X, or Sony causes Toshiba to do X- it works both ways- overall the competition of the formats has caused both parties to move more dramatically than they would have otherwise. Now the actions that are being taken could end up harming either BD or HD DVD BUT the consumer wins- I wasn't trying to favor either format in my remarks, but just b/c some of these actions may or may not favor our format of choice the end result is that consumers are going to get better product at better prices much sooner than they would have otherwise.
Someone (not me) said that the benefits of the format "war" were already gained by the end of 2006. This largely applies to HD DVD prodding Sony to improve their mastering/codec support and get off their asses with BD-J and Blu-ray keeping HD DVD prices honest (without Blu-ray, Toshiba would be a monopoly).
I will admit that the benefits of the opposing format are lopsided. Blu-ray has a healthy mix of studios and manufacturers to keep things honest. HD DVD is somewhat of a monopoly without Blu-ray.
There is no doubt the initial format threat reaped some benefits (mostly highlighting certain technical deficiencies). But now, in 2007, the technology has largely settled and there isn't much to compete on. At this point, we're losing more than we are gaining from the fight.
Kevink109 lists a bunch of events that have happened and attributes ALL of them to the fact that there is a format war. This is faulty logic. Again, competition is healthy on DVD. Why does it work there but somehow high-def needs two warring formats?
Yes I do. Do you think Sony was happy to watch Samsung sell more players due to their lower price? There is already competition in the Blu-camp with or without HD DVD. Why is Toshiba a bigger competitor than Panasonic or Sony or Samsung just because the format is different?

The initial batch of BD players were all $1k plus- I am too lazy too look it up but one of the initial hooks of BD was that the hardware would be priced to allow healthy margins for manufactures- However- the real competition of the HD DVD format and its more aggressive price structure does lower the acceptable price points down for the next gen HD disc format- this affects all participants in the next gen. arena

Yes I do. Don' t you think lower priced Warner and Disney titles on Blu-ray are a bigger concern to them than something that's happening in a format that they have nothing to do with? If Universal started producing Blu-ray discs do you honestly think that makes them LESS of a competitor to Fox and Disney simply because they are on the same format? That's just silly.

Not really- at this point you can't separate BD/HD DVD as different media categories- they are both next gen HD discs- although incompatible w/ each other they are both competing for HD disc market share- so yes increased competition can push down prices- unless you are offering something of extra value being the most expensive HD disc in either format is not going to sway potential customers. I agree that studio competition will eventually lower prices- but right now the addition of the competing formats is accelerating this process- likewise, I think that the BD trifecta of Sony, Disney, and FOX are working on common strategies to ensure the success of their format- I would bet there is internal pressure here on each studio to release/price product in a manner that benefits not only themselves but the BD group as well.

That this sale had anything to do with HD DVD is one of the more outlandish claims I see on these forums. Don't certain DVD's from certain studios go on sale as well? Give me one shred of evidence that this sale is due to HD DVD rather than the more likely explanation of studios liquidating excess inventory for certain titles?

Come on- the sale is promoted as a BD sale- why not a HD disc sale for both formats?
I would guess marketing dollars were used for this promotion. If I were running the BD I would do it- I would be going for the kill right now in HD DVDs weakest release offering- I would be release everything I could and subsidizing everyone to start their BD collections.

Ha. Do you think the HD DVD add-on would exist if not for the PS3. Sony was always pushing the PS3 as a Blu-ray device so it is not "crazy" to assume they would throw in a disc to help promote that. This is simple cross-promotion between their divisions (just like the coupon book that came with the PS3... I suppose that was caused by HD DVD as well).

I agree the BD capability of the PS3 spawned the Hd DVD add on- competition works both ways- I'n not trying say everything is b/c of HD DVD- I am saying the consumer is benefiting from this competition- and whichever format emerges is going to be better for it- This initial competition has not harmed the consumer- players will be better and cheaper, software will have lower selling prices- and more titles will have been pushed out the door in the initial stage- compare this to DVDs assent-ion and you will see consumers in the HD format battle are miles ahead in the first 6 months.

On this you have more of a point since Toshiba has no competition in HD DVD world. Since they have NO competition, it's obvious that their only enemy is the other format, but I think if Blu-ray didn't exist and everybody was making HD DVD players Toshiba would need to be even MORE aggressive.

maybe- more likely price-points would come down more gradually- once again look at where pricing started w/ DVD- it took 2-3 years for players to get the prices we are seeing today

Yes. The early players were buggy and expensive to produce. They want to reduce cost as early as possible to make more profit.

Yes they would want to reduce cost- but add in the competition of another format and both sides are being pushed more aggressively to reduce cost, and increase quality.

I'm not sure how much the hardware manufacturers want these players out there. Other than some HD DVD publicists threatening their existence and some CES prototypes, I don't see them really being "courted". Do you think Toshiba really WANTS to compete with these?

Well- if it is part of their strategy to defeat BD, yes I think it is- Once again one of the cornerstones of the BD strategy was to entice OEMs that player prices/margins would be more robust w/ BD- I am willing to pay $500 + for a CE device but the general public will not. Toshiba is attacking the CE base of BD w/ this strategy- it doesn't mean I like it, endorse it, or that it will work- BUT the consumer will reap the reward of lower cost players- the accepted price-points will be set- so the consumer benefits.

The studios would do this to one-up each other. Has nothing to do with format.

It does b/c Universal and Sony are linchpins to each format- they not only have to compete w/in their own prospective format but also counter the "other format'

Yes. Unhappy customers are unhappy customers.

Yeah- but if you can remember- what did unhappy phone and cable customers get once upon a time? I think the general response was " pound sand" and you had to take it- there were no alternatives.

Wrong. If HD sales are split down the middle between enthusiasts and J6P never jumps aboard because things are too confusing and insecure, we don't see reasonable prices because economies of scale don't apply (like LD). Did you not get the entire point of my original post?

I do but at this point the consumer is still gaining more than he is losing. Considering the low % of households that even own a HD TV , mass adoption is most likely 3 years away- by then this will have sorted itself out or something else will have taken its place. There are also many valid arguments that consumers will just skip HD discs regardless- it may just be an enthusiasts format-
Most youngsters I know seem very happy w/ music downloads, ipods, and youtube-go figure ;)

Probably the only thing we are in utter agreement on.

Yes- please don't think of these companies as your friend :)

I don't think the format competition harms consumers. There still isn't a fully functional blu-ray player. Heck, if Toshiba hadn't released their fully functional hd-dvd players, we still might not have a hd player on the market yet. Due to the competition, both sides are forced to give firmware updates and compete on price.

It doesn't harm the consumers, it just has the effect of warding them off from buying either format. If the warding off goes on long enough, neither format will achieve mass acceptance and once again, we're looking at LD.

It actually seems like the "war" is helping protect "J6P" from HD discs and the enthusiasts that battle over them.

It actually seems like the "war" is helping protect "J6P" from HD discs and the enthusiasts that battle over them.

:) For the average person, anything that keeps dollars in their pocket is to their benefit, and keeping out of a format fray (which seems instinctive for most people) does that very well.

It should be interesting to see the lay of the land a year from now. My guess is the competition between dual format players will be heating up and the single format players will be converging towards flagships.

If all studios went neutral (including Sony, et al), we would have a true consumer win.

Competition has always been between the studios.
Just to address this point. How often do you pay a different price for a different studio's movie at a multiplex? You don't; they don't compete. They collude.

Just to address this point. How often do you pay a different price for a different studio's movie at a multiplex? You don't; they don't compete. They collude.
The theater sets the prices for tickets, not the studios.

I have a 720P projector, so it wouldn't matter to me. But I bet that 720P upscaled would look remarkably similar to 1080.
As a PS3 user who owns both 720p and 1080p game titles, and a 1080p display, I can say that unless your upscaler is extremely good, the 1080p will always look better. My Sony KDS-50A2000 does a very capable job of upscaling my 720p games to 1080p, but they still don't look nearly as crisp as the 1:1 pixel mapping on my 1080p titles.

I agree with several previous posts; competition helps in the short term but could harm things in the long term.

The border between short term and long term depends on corporate commitment. The worst scenario is if both sides give up at about the same time and choose a lower-quality alternative such as DVD only or downloads that are of lesser quality (720p, low-quality audio), leaving both formats to die.

We are a long ways away from the worst scenario, though.

SCD

I don't post much here, but i've been an avid reader for a short while. First off, i am AMAZED that this thread hasn't gone down the "Why won't HD DVD/Blu Ray just die" path yet.

I think that in the short term, the "war" helps consumers. If you compare this to when DVD's came out, Hardware prices have fallen far quicker. Software has increased in quality and quantity far quicker. There is more urgency for the hardware developers to refine their products quicker (via firmware upgrades, and new generation players). ALL of this benefits the consumer.

I think it's hard to say what effect there will be in the long run. In all honesty, i hope that fully functional combo players become the norm. Everyone *should* be happy then. Then we could all watch our already purchased media, buy whatever HD format the movie you want is on, and all go back to debating if 1080p is needed on a 32" screen when your sitting 9 feet away :)

The theater sets the prices for tickets, not the studios.
That's like saying the gas stations set the prices.

I don't agree with the Opening Post at all.

The competition between the two formats has already helped the consumer massively, and continues to do so.

The rapid drop in prices and the massive increases in features has made this next generation more attainable than DVD ever was in the first year.

Instead of starting at $1000 to $1,500, we are seeing players available at $400, with advanced features and audio codecs.

And if you look at the price of movies, they are incredibly low because of the competition. DVD movies started very high, and even DVHS/D-Theater tapes were over $40 each. Whereas you can get new HD/BD tapes at $20.

Anyone who tells you that the competition is not good for the consumer has not thought it through properly or honestly. I can almost guarantee that if it weren't for the competition between these two formats FAR fewer people would be enjoying these hidef formats as both the players and movies would be much more expensive and the features would be far more limited, in order to allow for future "churn" of the consumers.

First, a quick summary of the "anti format competition" argument:

1) Format competition is not without its benefits. However, the benefits of format competition have largely come and gone and the competition between studios and manufacturers is much more important now

2) At this point the benefits are dwindling and the costs of format competition far outweigh the benefits. The format competition is blocking mass-market adoption. Economies of scale are needed to drop prices to a reasonable level and to stop scaring J6P. Having two formats makes this much more difficult, if not impossible.

3) Competition will strive and be more fierce *within* a single format rather than between them. The studios and manufacturers will fight it out, whatever the format.


To those pushing that the format competition is necessary and good for the consumer, I'd love for you to respond to the following questions.

Q: If every Blu-ray manufacturer also made HD DVD players, would this push Toshiba to raise or lower the cost of their players?

Q: Which is more likely to cause Fox to lower their BR prices: Universal drops the price of their HD DVDs or Warner Bros. drops the price of their Blu-ray discs?

Q: If Universal went neutral, would they be more or less of a competitor to Sony/Disney/Fox?

Q: What is more likely to cause Blu-ray player price drops: the existence of Toshiba's $400 HD DVD player or if Samsung were to release a $400 Blu-ray player?

My answer to all of these is that the competition from *within* a format is always greater and more motivating than the competition *between* the formats.

Some of you argue that if this happens prices would remain high for both players and software due to a lack of competition.
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This is not true.
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Same goes for the players. Even without HD DVD, Blu-ray manufacturers will all fight with each other over price.

What you are missing in the whole analysis is the time component. Yes, prices will fall - but how long will it take ?

Is it okay if they fall from $1000 to $500 over 2 years and it takes 5 years for them to come down to $200 level ? Remember - this is not like going from fat CRT SD TVs to sleek HD flat panels. HiDef dvd is not that compelling to start with for the average consumer ....

If all studios went neutral (including Sony, et al), we would have a true consumer win.
This would be the worse possible outcome for consumers. The market would be fragmented. Mastering, production and distribution would be inefficient raising the cost to consumers. Consumers would be likely run out of inventory in one format or the other. I already hate it when I get to Target to buy a new DVD on sell and there is only Fullscreen available. Some of the people would have players that are imcompatible with what other people have. Sharing would be difficult and the BBs of the world would be packed with people returning HD media that is incompatible with their players.

Fortunately, this option is so unattractive to the studios that it is a non-starter.

Hasn't it been the stated goal of the BDA to keep prices high on their players to avoid what happened with DVD?

My answer to all of these is that the competition from *within* a format is always greater and more motivating than the competition *between* the formats.

As it stands don't we have both types of competition rather than format internal competition only?

As a PS3 user who owns both 720p and 1080p game titles, and a 1080p display, I can say that unless your upscaler is extremely good, the 1080p will always look better. My Sony KDS-50A2000 does a very capable job of upscaling my 720p games to 1080p, but they still don't look nearly as crisp as the 1:1 pixel mapping on my 1080p titles.

No wonder - a 1080p source consists of more than twice the pixelcount compared to 720p. I see quite a difference as well with a 1080p native display/projector. :cool:

Some mention that all HD-DVD/Toshiba has to do in order to 'win' the war, is to spit out $199 HD-DVD players before Blu-ray does. IMHO we have passed the point of cheaper players making HD-DVD looking more like 'the HD standard of tomorrow' compared to Blu-ray. They really, really need more studios releasing content in HD-DVD. When Casino Royale, POTC 1+2 and Cars are released in BD I expect Blu-ray to skyrocket further ahead - just with these four titles alone.

Some mention that all HD-DVD/Toshiba has to do in order to 'win' the war, is to spit out $199 HD-DVD players before Blu-ray does. IMHO we have passed the point of cheaper players making HD-DVD looking more like 'the HD standard of tomorrow' compared to Blu-ray. They really, really need more studios releasing content in HD-DVD. When Casino Royale, POTC 1+2 and Cars are released in BD I expect Blu-ray to skyrocket further ahead - just with these four titles alone.

That is only if HD DVD releases nothing while those came out. Even if they were super successful, they will probably sell at most, 100k. And that is to people who all ready own players. I am sure some will dive in at that point but not on a grand scale. The amount of std dvd that will sell will completely dwarf them by comparison. If Universal stays with HD DVD only, thru next year they have coming up, Bourne Ultimatum, Mummy 3, Incredible Hulk, Jurassic Park IV, Hellboy 2, and Flash Gordon. If people see that those are only available on HD DVD, and they end up being blockbusters and the 1st 4 listed very well could be, they just as easily would sell as many machines as your above titles. Especially if there was a $299 standalone. It may very well depend on Universal staying the course and Toshiba getting as many players in peoples hands as possible until even cheaper players become available. Do none of those 6 Universal titles hold interest to the blu-ray crowd?

May as well lean Blu then, since most of the major manufacturers and studios support it. Let's just stop delaying the inevitable.