Which is more durable for Rental: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray? [Text View]

MidnightWatcher

03-09-07, 10:30 AM

You've heard wrong. The hard coating applied to Blu-ray discs makes them scratch resistant. You may want to do a search for a thread that asked how rented discs did between the two formats. Most Blu-ray renters said this discs played great, while DVD renters had more issues with disc skipping.

Depending on who your client is, you may want to go with TDK. They invented Durabis, which is what all Blu-ray hard coating is modelled after.

http://www.durabis.com

Here is a graph where they showed how the disc performed after numerous passed with steel wool. They claim 300 passes before jitter makes the disc unplayable.

http://www.durabis.com/en/img/tec00202.gif

Blu-ray is the renters (and owners) choice for durability.
Blu-ray discs do NOT use Durabis. You need to get your facts straight. They use their own proprietary "scratch-resistant" coating. Though their coating helps to resist scratches, the fact remains that they still scratch. If the scratch is only 0.1 mm or deeper, then Blu-ray discs run the serious risk of damaging the data layer and are consequently irreparable. On the other hand, HD DVD discs have the data layer 0.6 mm deep, so it can withstand considerable scratches compared to Blu-ray and still play without issue. On top of this, HD DVD discs are repairable if scratches occur.

Also note that many Blu-ray discs are showing up with hairline fractures on the outer edge of the discs. I believe that this is a direct result of the harder coating that makes the discs less 'bendable' so to speak, so when a Blu-ray disc is removed from its case a slight bend will result in these cracks over time. Sometimes the discs play fine, other times they do not. The BDA should have kept their discs in a caddy as was originally planned. I suspect that in time there will be issues with these discs, both the cracking problem that some are experiencing as well as eventual scratches resulting in playability problems.

The question to ask is which format will give you more problems over time? HD DVD or BD?

Cain

03-09-07, 10:30 AM

BD definitely.

Maxpower1987

03-09-07, 10:37 AM

Blu-day discs do NOT use Durabis. You need to get your facts straight. They use their own proprietary "scratch-resistant" coating. Though their coating helps to resist scratches, the fact remains that they still scratch. If the scratch is only 0.1 mm or deeper, then Blu-ray discs run the serious risk of damaging the data layer and are consequently irreparable. On the other hand, HD DVD discs have the data layer 0.6 mm deep, so it can withstand considerable scratches compared to Blu-ray and still play without issue. On top of this, HD DVD discs are repairable if scratches occur.

Also note that many Blu-ray discs are showing up with hairline fractures on the outer edge of the discs. I believe that this is a direct result of the harder coating that makes the discs less 'bendable' so to speak, so when a Blu-ray disc is removed from its case a slight bend will result in these cracks over time. Sometimes the discs play fine, other times they do not. The BDA should have kept their discs in a caddy as was originally planned. I suspect that in time there will be issues with these discs, both the cracking problem that some are experiencing as well as eventual scratches resulting in playability problems.

I think you need to understand that Durabis is quickly becoming what Hoover became for vacuum cleaner. Durabis is basically interchangeable with the two-spin hardcoat process that all BDs must undergo.

On the durability side, HD DVD is pretty much the same as DVD, BD is way better, though some people have experienced slight cracking, that could be attributed to bad handling in extremely cold conditions (postal services in -20 degree weather).

I have rented a few BDs, all of them have been pristine.

sedaku

03-09-07, 10:42 AM

Blu-day discs do NOT use Durabis. You need to get your facts straight. They use their own proprietary "scratch-resistant" coating. Though their coating helps to resist scratches, the fact remains that they still scratch. If the scratch is only 0.1 mm or deeper, then Blu-ray discs run the serious risk of damaging the data layer and are consequently irreparable. On the other hand, HD DVD discs have the data layer 0.6 mm deep, so it can withstand considerable scratches compared to Blu-ray and still play without issue. On top of this, HD DVD discs are repairable if scratches occur.

Also note that many Blu-ray discs are showing up with hairline fractures on the outer edge of the discs. I believe that this is a direct result of the harder coating that makes the discs less 'bendable' so to speak, so when a Blu-ray disc is removed from its case a slight bend will result in these cracks over time. Sometimes the discs play fine, other times they do not. The BDA should have kept their discs in a caddy as was originally planned. I suspect that in time there will be issues with these discs, both the cracking problem that some are experiencing as well as eventual scratches resulting in playability problems.

Are you trying to imply HD DVD is more durable than Blu-ray ?

Btw, HD DVD scratch resistance, data layer 0.6mm deep and what not is no different than DVD. And we know how that goes.

abr27440

03-09-07, 10:45 AM

Ilka

03-09-07, 10:48 AM

BDs are much more scratch resistant than DVDs ... that I can personally attest to. Not sure about HD DVDs, but if they are the same as current DVDs ... well, you do the math.

At some point, we should get some industry-experience reports from the rental market.

Caurus

03-09-07, 10:48 AM

Well, if the client really wants the BEST solution for his movies, then there is actually only ONE solution. And this might come as a surprise to some people: it is HD DVD with hard coating.

You can apply the cheap BD scratch proof or the even better durabis coating to a HD DVD. The fact that nobody does this for HD DVD so far is pure economics. Scratches on HD DVDs simply do not matter that much. I have a HD DVD that jumped from its holding during its trip across the ocean. This HD DVD's surface looked REALLY bad when it arrived at my place. But it played just fine. A BD disc with scratches like that would have been broken and would have been beyond repair. That is why BD uses a hard-coating and HD DVD does not use a hard-coating at all.

But if your client wants his HD DVD with hard coating to be on the safe side. No problem. Get them with the durabis coating and then he will have the best solution available. And it will probably be still cheaper than the BD version.

You should talk to Amir. You find him in the insider thread. He can hook you up with the right contacts.

MozartMan

03-09-07, 10:53 AM

Blu-day discs do NOT use Durabis.
Sure.

http://images10.newegg.com/NeweggImage/productimage/17-131-062-02.JPG

Sketcha

03-09-07, 10:53 AM

Blu-day discs do NOT use Durabis. You need to get your facts straight. They use their own proprietary "scratch-resistant" coating. Though their coating helps to resist scratches, the fact remains that they still scratch. If the scratch is only 0.1 mm or deeper, then Blu-ray discs run the serious risk of damaging the data layer and are consequently irreparable. On the other hand, HD DVD discs have the data layer 0.6 mm deep, so it can withstand considerable scratches compared to Blu-ray and still play without issue. On top of this, HD DVD discs are repairable if scratches occur.

Also note that many Blu-ray discs are showing up with hairline fractures on the outer edge of the discs. I believe that this is a direct result of the harder coating that makes the discs less 'bendable' so to speak, so when a Blu-ray disc is removed from its case a slight bend will result in these cracks over time. Sometimes the discs play fine, other times they do not. The BDA should have kept their discs in a caddy as was originally planned. I suspect that in time there will be issues with these discs, both the cracking problem that some are experiencing as well as eventual scratches resulting in playability problems.
Had to figure it wouldn't be long before the spinning started up, with a topic like this and who better to champion the cause than good ol' Midnight.

PacificDisc (and anyone interested)

If you do some searching, as Grubert eluded, you will find MANY more complaints about HD DVD scratching/playing issues than BD and MANY more praises for BD durability than HD DVD. And all of this while HD DVD leads Blu-ray 2:1 in support on AVS. These are just the simple facts.

Maxpower1987

03-09-07, 10:55 AM

Jackinbox

03-09-07, 10:59 AM

I've never tried to scratch a BD, but I'm always amazed how flawless the surfaces of BDs look that I've received from Netflix.

homerx

03-09-07, 11:01 AM

I'd say BD so far is the most durable. In time we will see how the cracking will effect things. Some one should do a test.
Remove a BD disc from the tray sevral times over a week ro simulated a few months of rental use..

xradman

03-09-07, 11:05 AM

I see this as being similar to hardwood floors. I have both traditional full thickness hardwood floor as well as one of those prefabricated hardwood floor (thin strip of pretreated hardwood on top of wood composite). Prefabricated hardwood floor is tougher and more beautiful (smooth and shiny) when new compared to regular hardwood floor that is sanded, stained, and barnished. However, after couple of years, prefabricated hardwood floor gets various dings and deep scratches that cannot be repaired. Due to the thin strip of surface hardwood, no one will sand or refinish this floor even though the floor manufacturer stated that it could be resanded up to 3 times. With the traditional hardwood, you simply resand, restain, and revarnish and it's like new again.

As others have stated, the hard coating on the Blu-ray is only as good as the first big scratch, and then it's finished since the data layer is only 0.1mm away from the surface. No matter how good the coating is, do you really believe that it cannot be scratched? Furthermore, we have no way of knowing what the long term stability of this coating surface or its interaction with underlying plastic matrix is. For those of you that have collected LDs, you remember laser rot, right? Already, there are reports of some Blu-ray discs cracking and therefore, I would not come to any immediate conclusions about which format is more durable. With HD DVD, its strengths and weakness are well known since it's construction is virtually identical with SD DVDs.

abr27440

03-09-07, 11:25 AM

Well at the moment HD DVD companies would have to get an expensive license from the BDA to use the two-spin process so not for a while yet.

ROTFLMAO... You think the BDA owns the rights to that??? :rolleyes: Don't quit your day job.

abr27440

03-09-07, 11:27 AM

Maxpower1987

03-09-07, 11:57 AM

ROTFLMAO... You think the BDA owns the rights to that??? :rolleyes: Don't quit your day job.

Considering it was TDK (a BDA company) who came up with the process, I would go with yes.

PS - I don't plan on giving up my day job, it entitles me to BDs at 50% off, why would I give it up :).

abr27440

03-09-07, 12:08 PM

Considering it was TDK (a BDA company) who came up with the process, I would go with yes.

PS - I don't plan on giving up my day job, it entitles me to BDs at 50% off, why would I give it up :).

Are you saying the BDA owns TDK? :rolleyes: Even if they had problems licensing it from TDK, thats not a problem since they are not the only game in town.

PacificDisc

03-09-07, 12:09 PM

Thanks for all the input -- I'm not surprised the customer is confused!

- Sean
PacificDisc

Maxpower1987

03-09-07, 12:10 PM

Are you saying the BDA owns TDK? :rolleyes: Even if they had problems licensing it from TDK, thats not a problem since they are not the only game in town.

Well, considering it is a patented process, TDK really are the only game in town. TDK being a BDA company will more than likely give other BDA members better pricing than non-members, which is what I was trying to get across.

DavidHir

03-09-07, 12:15 PM

Blu-ray discs are without a doubt more durable than HD DVDs. If you rent from Netflix, rent one disc of each format and see for yourself. The coating of Blu-ray can be felt by just touching it with your fingertip.

dialog_gvf

03-09-07, 12:16 PM

I see this as being similar to hardwood floors. I have both traditional full thickness hardwood floor as well as one of those prefabricated hardwood floor (thin strip of pretreated hardwood on top of wood composite).

It would seem that this analogy would work IF BD had a coating similar to DVD/HD DVD. But, that isn't the case.

If the veneer form had a urethane 100x more resistent than traditional hard hardwood varnish, then what would be the results?

With HD DVD, its strengths and weakness are well known since it's construction is virtually identical with SD DVDs.
Not quite. The geometries and the ECC are very different. We really don't know how close to tolerance HD DVD's are compared to DVD. We don't know how much better the ECC is.

An equal scratching of the surface of a DVD and HD DVD don't necessarily mean equal results. Especially considering how finicky the Toshiba players are to begin with.

I put up a poll a while back. It showed 20% or so of HD DVD rental people having problems with their rental discs, versus 4% of BD. And none of the BD people had serious problems.

In the end, it is the experiences of real owners that count.

Gary

abr27440

03-09-07, 12:20 PM

Well, considering it is a patented process, TDK really are the only game in town. TDK being a BDA company will more than likely give other BDA members better pricing than non-members, which is what I was trying to get across.

Correction, they are ONE of the MANY patented processes that could be considered a "Hard Coating"

Slim GoodBooty

03-09-07, 12:26 PM

Didn't I read something about Bluray discs cracking? Can anyone demonstrate that HDDVDs are anymore susceptible to errors from scratches than DVDs are? I haven't had many issues with scratched DVDs not playing.

b.greenway

03-09-07, 12:27 PM

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=807033

MidnightWatcher

03-09-07, 12:31 PM

Sure.

http://images10.newegg.com/NeweggImage/productimage/17-131-062-02.JPG
We're talking about movies. The blank recordable BD discs cost an arm and a leg, so they better have the real thing.

MidnightWatcher

03-09-07, 12:33 PM

As others have stated, the hard coating on the Blu-ray is only as good as the first big scratch, and then it's finished since the data layer is only 0.1mm away from the surface. No matter how good the coating is, do you really believe that it cannot be scratched? Furthermore, we have no way of knowing what the long term stability of this coating surface or its interaction with underlying plastic matrix is. For those of you that have collected LDs, you remember laser rot, right? Already, there are reports of some Blu-ray discs cracking and therefore, I would not come to any immediate conclusions about which format is more durable. With HD DVD, its strengths and weakness are well known since it's construction is virtually identical with SD DVDs.
Yep. DVD (and therefore HD DVD) is a proven technology. Blu-ray are beginning to show 'cracks' in their long-term durability, pun intended.

MidnightWatcher

03-09-07, 12:36 PM

Yeah, but do you understand how difficult it is to get that first scratch? Even intentionally?
Not difficult at all. Someone here accidentally dropped a Blu-ray movie and it hit one of their kid's toys. If left a huge scratch on the disc.

briankmonkey

03-09-07, 12:40 PM

Blu-ray hands down is the best choice for the OP.

Ilka

03-09-07, 12:42 PM

All -

As some of you know, we replicate DVDs -- all flavors (at great prices too... sorry, my boss told me to write that). But seriously.... a client of mine asked me a good question yesterday and I hoped that some of you could help in answering, from real-world experience.

He is looking to convert a large library of 35mm films to either HD-DVD or Blu-Ray and his main concern is which disc type will survive longest as a rental unit. I've heard that Blu-Ray's are easily damaged, but what's the practical answer here?

If you were having to chose, purely from the durability aspect -- which format would you use?

Any insight would be appreciated. Thanks

- Sean
PacificDisc

Since you're in the industry, why don't you contact Netflix and ask them about their failure rates for DVD, HD DVD, and Blu-Ray rentals???

Sketcha

03-09-07, 12:45 PM

Not difficult at all. Someone here accidentally dropped a Blu-ray movie and it hit one of their kid's toys. If left a huge scratch on the disc.
Must've been one of those, Krusty-the-Klown, Razor Dolls. :D

tindizzle

03-09-07, 12:57 PM

abr27440

03-09-07, 02:03 PM

I don't think HD DVD is any more durable than Blu-ray. If something is able to create a .1mm scratch into BD's hard coating, I wouldn't be surprised it would be able to get through HD DVD softer .6mm layer.

Ahh but it doesn't even need to be that deep, with dual layer BD's the first data layer is .025 mm from the surface.

tindizzle

03-09-07, 02:26 PM

MidnightWatcher

03-09-07, 03:35 PM

I'm saying that the force that it will take to get through the BD's hard coating would be more than enough to damage an HD DVD disc. TDK states that Durabis coated disc is 100x more scratch resistant than a conventional DVD. Even if Sony uses a hard coat that only provides half the protection of Durabis, it still provides better protection.
Speculative, at best. But let's keep it real. The point is that Blu-ray discs WILL scratch despite the resistance, and once they're scratched they have an INCREASED risk of skipping or unplayability all together. Coupled with this is the fact that Blu-ray discs CANNOT be repaired if the scratch is 0.1 mm and reaches the data surface (0.025mm for dual layer if the poster above is correct), and that some Blu-ray discs are experiencing hair-line cracks on the outer edge of the disc and you've got yourself a disc that may only seem more durable "on the surface" with their proprietary scratch resistant coating, but in reality this unproven format may end up being a real pain in the butt for collectors and gamers especially (we all know how kids/teens treat their console discs these days).

PacificDisc

03-09-07, 03:41 PM

Since you're in the industry, why don't you contact Netflix and ask them about their failure rates for DVD, HD DVD, and Blu-Ray rentals???

Already tried that. Netflix are being tight lipped.

ottscay

03-09-07, 04:02 PM

Owning a couple dozen disks of both formats, there is no question that (referring to stamped ROM movies) the Blu Ray movies are faaaaar more scratch resistant. In fact, I still don't have a scratch on any of them, while there are a couple of light ones on more than one HD DVD. How that translates to playing reliability I can't say; I know my A1 has more playback problems than my Panny, but that could be the machine rather than the software durability.

Either way, if I were backing up data, I wouldn't for an instant go with anything other than writable Blu Rays with the Durabois coating.

Macinheimer

03-09-07, 04:51 PM

I never had a problem with any HD DVD's I rented from Block Buster except Babel which the sound was cut off in some scenes, but I hated that movie

rdjam

03-09-07, 05:07 PM

Sure.

http://images10.newegg.com/NeweggImage/productimage/17-131-062-02.JPG
Durabis is only used on the recordable discs, not the pre-recorded BDROMs that the movies come on. The coating on the BDROMs is a generic "hardcoat" that is not as durable as Durabis, because they don't consider the BDROMs to contain critical data...

rdjam

03-09-07, 05:11 PM

I'm saying that the force that it will take to get through the BD's hard coating would be more than enough to damage an HD DVD disc. TDK states that Durabis coated disc is 100x more scratch resistant than a conventional DVD. Even if Sony uses a hard coat that only provides half the protection of Durabis, it still provides better protection.
Said force would certainly scratch the HD DVD surface, but it would not damage the data layer before. Also, because the laser focuses deeper on HD DVD, the scratch is less likely to occlude the laser beam and interfere with reads. On BD, the laser focuses so close to the surface that a scratch is more likely to interfere with data pickup. This is why it was so critical for BD to HAVE TO include the hardcoat - it wouldn't stand a chance otherwise, but is still far more sensitive to surface damage than HD DVD.

tindizzle

03-09-07, 05:22 PM

Said force would certainly scratch the HD DVD surface, but it would not damage the data layer before. Also, because the laser focuses deeper on HD DVD, the scratch is less likely to occlude the laser beam and interfere with reads. On BD, the laser focuses so close to the surface that a scratch is more likely to interfere with data pickup. This is why it was so critical for BD to HAVE TO include the hardcoat - it wouldn't stand a chance otherwise, but is still far more sensitive to surface damage than HD DVD.

Are you saying it takes more force to scratch through an HD DVD's .6mm layer of polycarbonate than BD's .1mm layer of pc and much harder hard coat? We need an unbiased person to sacrifice a BD and an HD DVD to a torture test to settle this once and for all :p.

TheLoveone

03-09-07, 06:09 PM

I echo the rest of everyone else in here: Blu-ray discs are FAR more durable that HD DVD discs. Anyone who has owned both formats for an extended period of time knows this because it becomes really apparent with rentals.

The specifics of the technology are unimportant to me. As an end user they could be coating the Blu-ray discs with childrens' tears for all I care, whatever it is, it is amazing stuff and keeps pretty much every disc looking brand new, even the PS3 video games at Blockbuster which have probably been through hell and back.

Sketcha

03-09-07, 06:25 PM

As an end user they could be coating the Blu-ray discs with childrens' tears for all I care
:D :D :D

talbain

03-09-07, 07:12 PM

Well, considering it is a patented process, TDK really are the only game in town. TDK being a BDA company will more than likely give other BDA members better pricing than non-members, which is what I was trying to get across.

this is not correct. there are many ways to apply hard (durable) coating to a disc. the hd dvd consortium is free to add it as they see fit...

Maxpower1987

03-09-07, 07:13 PM

this is not correct. there are many ways to apply hard (durable) coating to a disc. the hd dvd consortium is free to add it as they see fit...

After buying a license off a BDA member company.

xradman

03-09-07, 07:21 PM

I think experience of HT enthusiasts with their personal collection of discs have very little relavance to the question at hand. I treat all my discs with utmost care. Most of my discs have never been played more than once and then promptly put back into their cases for storage. However, I have seen some discs that my kids have borrowed from their friends or libraries that look as if they have been tied behind a bike and dragged down the street for several blocks. People don't treat rental discs with care that we render our own discs.

When they don't play, I know I can buff out most scratches with my hand held scratch remover. I don't know that Blu-ray despite their coating would be able to tolerate such abuse without damage to their underlying data layer. Rental shops all have expensive power scratch remover to repair DVDs. These would not work with Blu-ray discs. What would be the expected life of Blu-ray under these extremely hard rental conditions?

Furthermore, even the hardest substance known to man, diamond, can be cracked. Hard substance when subjected to stress beyond their tolerance breaks or cracks. Relatively soft material like polycarbonate scratches. They all have pluses and minus, and I am not sure which format will prove to be more durable in harsh rental environment.

randosel

03-09-07, 09:07 PM

I suggest that you make disc in both formats!:D

PacificDisc

03-09-07, 09:45 PM

I suggest that you make disc in both formats!:D

Now that's a great idea. I wonder if the client will go for spending double? LOL

- Sean
PacificDisc

Mr. Hanky

03-09-07, 09:56 PM

xradman

03-09-07, 10:06 PM

Think of it this way, if no one was concerned about hd-dvd getting scratches, you would think the topic linked below would sink like a rock, in its respective forum. ;)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=816368
No one denies that HD DVD gets scratches. HD DVD gets scratches but in most cases, it's repairable. Blu-ray is resistant to most scratches, but once it's scratched, it's not repairable. Which is better or worse?

For me as a collector, I am not worried about scratches. My discs are kept pristine and are seldom lent out. For me, the biggest worry is the stability of the discs, so any type of coating concerns me because I don't know if this will flake off with time or cause damage to the underlayer. Therefore to me, HD DVD is better, since we have at least 10 years of proven stability with the DVD disc format.

To a rental shop, I don't know which solution is going to be better. Discs that scratch but can be repaired, or discs that don't scratch easily, but can't be repaired. How long do typical SD DVDs from rental shops last before they have to be replaced due to irreparable damage? If Blu-ray discs last at least that long, then Blu-ray may be preferred since they don't have to repair it before they discard it. If it doesn't, then HD DVDs may be preferred since they can be repaired when scratched.

Icemage

03-09-07, 10:07 PM

I have yet to see a single dual format user on this format indicate that their HD DVDs were holding up better than their Blu-rays, but many who indicate the opposite (as evidenced in this thread). The rental condition thread also sheds some light.

Granted, it's all anecdotal, but as you say, Netflix isn't talking, and neither is Blockbuster. This is about the only relatively unbiased information that you'll probably find on the net. :)

Mr. Hanky

03-09-07, 11:27 PM

For me as a collector, I am not worried about scratches. My discs are kept pristine and are seldom lent out. For me, the biggest worry is the stability of the discs, so any type of coating concerns me because I don't know if this will flake off with time or cause damage to the underlayer.

If you take care of your discs, then you should have no more worry of a BR disc flaking up than you would have your hd-dvd delaminating down the center. It will become a moot point, anyway, if managed-copy or "forced-managed-copy" ;) ever gets off the ground. Then you can "data backup" to your heart's content. :p

To a rental shop, I don't know which solution is going to be better. Discs that scratch but can be repaired, or discs that don't scratch easily, but can't be repaired. How long do typical SD DVDs from rental shops last before they have to be replaced due to irreparable damage? If Blu-ray discs last at least that long, then Blu-ray may be preferred since they don't have to repair it before they discard it. If it doesn't, then HD DVDs may be preferred since they can be repaired when scratched.

They might be repairable when scratched. It is no guarantee. A scratch could be fatal even w/o reaching the data layer on an hd-dvd. So chances are you will be better off with a disc that implements a coating that repels scratches from happening in the first place.

It is also fairly well accepted that most of these disc repair machines are filling in scratches, not buffing them out by removing a layer of material. Hence, it is a bit duplicitous to assert that filling in scratches on an hdvd is a valid approach, but filling in scratches on a BR isn't. You are filling in scratches, either way. If you aren't removing a layer of material, then you don't need to worry about poofing a protective coating. ;)

obispo21

03-09-07, 11:45 PM

It is also fairly well accepted that most of these disc repair machines are filling in scratches, not buffing them out by removing a layer of material. Hence, it is a bit duplicitous to assert that filling in scratches on an hdvd is a valid approach, but filling in scratches on a BR isn't. You are filling in scratches, either way. If you aren't removing a layer of material, then you don't need to worry about poofing a protective coating. ;)

Not trying to be argumentative... but I haven't seen a CD/DVD repair device or service that operated by "filling in" scratches since the early days when you basically purchased a bottle of white paste and a towellette in a box.

Every scratch repair service that I see today at local stores and offered over the web (e.g. AzuraDisc, Disc-Go-Tech) operate by sanding, polishing and buffing the disc. Even the at home "Skip Doctor" device sands off a bit of plastic.

Mr. Hanky

03-09-07, 11:51 PM

Well, that's what I read in that "other" thread. ;) In that event, you should just opt for a treatment that only fills the scratches.

obispo21

03-10-07, 12:19 AM

Well, that's what I read in that "other" thread. ;) In that event, you should just opt for a treatment that only fills the scratches.

Got it - well that's very interesting. Looking at the thread you pointed out, it seems there are some newer machines on the market that work by heating / melting the scratches in instead of polishing. This is news to me and sounds like a good idea.

I don't think either polishing or heating would work very well for BD though. I think BD's hard coat is stupendous for the home & collector market... but I think the BD disc design makes it intrinsically difficult (perhaps impossible) to repair if something severe enough happens that it does damage.

Put simply, I think BD stands up to every day wear & tear much better than HD DVD, but if you have some accidental event, a BD disc would probably be lost, while a HD DVD might be salvageable.

I don't have any knowledge about wich would be more important in the rental market though. Intuitively, I would think BD would work out fine... and would last at least long enough for you to make returns on the disc. (Unless you had some really careless or very inconsiderate/negligent customers.) HD DVD I would think would work out just like DVD.

Mr. Hanky

03-10-07, 12:36 AM

Agreed...and who knows? The mother of necessity may eventually provide an official "BR repair" solution, just as a whole family of repair products for dvd's have appeared. ;) Maybe somebody will come up with a home kit that buffs through the coating, buffs out scratches, and then applies a new protective coating (albeit not the same stuff as the original coating, but something fitting for the personal use market). :) You never know...

talbain

03-10-07, 02:16 AM

its funny this thread should pop up again...tonight i had my first bad rental disc. hd dvd version of pulse was scratched and was unplayable...

AnthonyP

03-10-07, 12:26 PM

The BD people have all drank a bit to much of the kool-aid. Of course Blu-ray disks resist scratches, because even the smallest scratch could be fatal.

Let me put it this way, do you think DVD's survive long enough in the rental market? If so then HD DVD disks have all the same characteristics, and will likely last just as long. But hey if thats not good enough, you always have the option of adding a hard coating, for even longer life (yes even longer then Blu-ray).

if DVDs survivedf long enough I don't think peo-ple woulkd be asking about durability. The problem is that yes something tough enough to scrath at .1mm BD can make more damage to BD then HD DVD but that same force would decimate the HD DVD long before that.

AnthonyP

03-10-07, 12:46 PM

there is also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5jEbZt6AIQ

Sketcha

03-10-07, 12:47 PM

that same force would decimate the HD DVD long before that.
Funny that you don't hear about that in the spin that is the "other side" of this debate.

Yes guys, we get it, BDiscs CAN get scratched. :rolleyes:

Sketcha

03-10-07, 12:54 PM

there is also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5jEbZt6AIQ
This is old, as Anthony knows. For any of you who don't, the question of why the disc is not being held while punished, was answered within the first few minutes of the first thread.

IT'S A ONE-MAN SHOW!!! The steel wool is in one hand, the camera in the other!

O.K. Sorry, but I couldn't believe the haters didn't figure this out the first time this was posted. They would try to discredit the demo by ASSuming that this guy is biased because he is not even trying to hold the disc with his other hand while he scratches. Apparently he just doesn't have any friends that could hold the camera.

talbain

03-10-07, 02:05 PM

it would probably have been better then if he didn't keep saying "we" if he was a one man band...and invest in a tripod

also, just because the movie boots up doesn't mean there won't be problems. my hd problem disc from last night was scratched to hell and played great right up to chapter 7...

Supermans

03-10-07, 02:19 PM

I can honestly say that out of around 10 HD-DVD's I've rented at Blockbuster, more than half of them had scratches which were permanent since I clean all of the discs before playing them. I believe those scratches caused some freezes and skipping with those particular titles if they were big enough. With Blu-Ray, cleaning the discs with a "paper towel" and water doesn't leave any micro-scratches at all and leaves the discs looking brand new. Since I rent the Blu-Ray discs, I did test out its hardness and I wasn't able to scratch it myself with the paper towel and no water. Try using a paper towel on an HD-DVD... When cleaning the HD-DVD's, I have to use the same "cotton cloth" I use to clean my glasses and digital camera lens for it not to do any harm to the disc. There are many threads here on AVS forum that speak of this issue and every now and then you get someone trying to figure out why HD-DVD doesn't match Blu-Ray's coating with something of their own.

Slim GoodBooty

03-10-07, 02:29 PM

Truth is that thanks to Durabis, Bluray is just as tough as DVDs and HDDVDs.

talbain

03-10-07, 02:30 PM

There are many threads here on AVS forum that speak of this issue and every now and then you get someone trying to figure out why HD-DVD doesn't match Blu-Ray's coating with something of their own.

i've wondered that myself...

WayneL

03-10-07, 02:32 PM

Icemage

03-10-07, 02:58 PM

Yoohoo! it's because BD is more susceptible to scratches than HD. Not only is the actual BD layer more vunerable because it can be damaged by the scratch, it is also closer to the scratch, which cant' be "defocused" as easily.
Real world experience disagrees with you. There are zero reports of what you claim on this forum, and this place is full of people who would know.

AnthonyP

03-10-07, 03:25 PM

Real world experience disagrees with you. There are zero reports of what you claim on this forum, and this place is full of people who would know.

Because his claims are not based on reality. If BD was not BD and did not have the hard coat what he claims would be true. The difference between fan boy and not is that claims are based on reality.

He also forgot one issue that pit size also matters and HD DVD and BD have smaller pit size then DVD so the equivalent size scratch on an HD DVD and a DVD will have more of an effect on HD DVD.

Johnsteph10

03-10-07, 03:51 PM

Something I haven't really seen yet...

IF HD-DVDs are more easy to scratch AND the data is located deeper...couldn't they be repaired more easily as well? More plastic to sand or remold...vs. BD which would have as little as .025mm plastic protection...likely not a candidate to attempt a repair.

If you data is THAT sensitive, then I would rather have a format that could be repairable with the data located under more plastic. I'm not going to be that careless with the discs, anyway. I didn't scratch my DVDs in the past and I'm not going to scratch my HD-DVDs and BDs, either.

AnthonyP

03-10-07, 04:34 PM

IF HD-DVDs are more easy to scratch AND the data is located deeper...couldn't they be repaired more easily as well? More plastic to sand or remold...vs. BD which would have as little as .025mm plastic protection...likely not a candidate to attempt a repair.

yes, like DVDs today, but there is a limit because disks need to be 1.2mm. On the other hand isn't it better not to have scratches in the first place?

shift_grind

03-10-07, 06:43 PM

Blu-day discs do NOT use Durabis. You need to get your facts straight. They use their own proprietary "scratch-resistant" coating. Though their coating helps to resist scratches, the fact remains that they still scratch. If the scratch is only 0.1 mm or deeper, then Blu-ray discs run the serious risk of damaging the data layer and are consequently irreparable. On the other hand, HD DVD discs have the data layer 0.6 mm deep, so it can withstand considerable scratches compared to Blu-ray and still play without issue. On top of this, HD DVD discs are repairable if scratches occur.

Also note that many Blu-ray discs are showing up with hairline fractures on the outer edge of the discs. I believe that this is a direct result of the harder coating that makes the discs less 'bendable' so to speak, so when a Blu-ray disc is removed from its case a slight bend will result in these cracks over time. Sometimes the discs play fine, other times they do not. The BDA should have kept their discs in a caddy as was originally planned. I suspect that in time there will be issues with these discs, both the cracking problem that some are experiencing as well as eventual scratches resulting in playability problems.

you must work for or have some affiliation with HD DVD, all your posts you say this. fact remains, BD is more durable then HD

MidnightWatcher

03-10-07, 08:23 PM

Real world experience disagrees with you. There are zero reports of what you claim on this forum, and this place is full of people who would know.
There are reports of people having issues with seemingly minor scratches on Blu-ray discs. Do a search.

MidnightWatcher

03-10-07, 08:28 PM

you must work for or have some affiliation with HD DVD, all your posts you say this. fact remains, BD is more durable then HD
No and no. And no I disagree. BD may have the perception of being more durable than HD DVD to some, but the fact remains that a relatively minor scratch will have a much more adverse effect on Blu-ray discs than they will on HD DVD discs. And BD discs will scratch, despite the resistant coating. The BDA should have stuck with a caddy system for Blu-ray discs.

MidnightWatcher

03-10-07, 08:33 PM

there is also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5jEbZt6AIQ
The only thing this video proves is that the "tester" doesn't know how to conduct a real test. Just because the disc appeared to load up does *not* mean that no damage was done. Who is to say that the movie would not have sputtered or stopped playing all together two minutes after it began? Not even a kangaroo court would allow something as laughable as this to be entered into evidence. :p

Sketcha

03-10-07, 08:43 PM

The only thing this video proves is that the "tester" doesn't know how to conduct a real test. Just because the disc appeared to load up does *not* mean that no damage was done. Who is to say that the movie would not have sputtered or stopped playing all together two minutes after it began? Not even a kangaroo court would allow something as laughable as this to be entered into evidence. :p
It's FAR from scientific. However, I would venture to guess that the way it was conducted, scratches should have been pretty uniform across the whole thing. After some of that punishment, no DVD would have started up.

MidnightWatcher

03-10-07, 11:34 PM

It's FAR from scientific. However, I would venture to guess that the way it was conducted, scratches should have been pretty uniform across the whole thing. After some of that punishment, no DVD would have started up.
Conjecture. If I were to venture a guess, I would say that some would.

Sketcha

03-10-07, 11:48 PM

Conjecture. If I were to venture a guess, I would say that some would.
Well thanks for the consent...

and the correction of my phrase. :p

MidnightWatcher

03-11-07, 12:02 AM

Well thanks for the consent...

and the correction of my phrase. :p
Didn't realize you phrased it that way, both are good, I guess :)

Sketcha

03-11-07, 12:07 AM

Didn't realize you phrased it that way, both are good, I guess :)
Thanks for the grace, but no, I'm pretty sure yours was the right one. :)

MidnightWatcher

03-11-07, 03:54 AM

FYI, for those interested, here is the latest thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=818014) that was just started regarding Blu-ray discs that are physically cracked. Apparently this user received 6 out of 10 discs recently from Netflix exhibiting these cracks, which had playback issues in his PS3 (ie, would not play back at all). If this is a sign of things to come for Blu-ray discs in the rental market it doesn't look good.

Mr. Hanky

03-11-07, 04:09 AM

low post count ===> could be a paid hdvd schill :p

MidnightWatcher

03-11-07, 04:43 AM

low post count ===> could be a paid hdvd schill :p
What about all of these?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9447442&&#post9447442
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9803409&&#post9803409
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9604036&&#post9604036
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9555732&&#post9555732

Mr. Hanky

03-11-07, 04:53 AM

They're all reporting the same 6 discs. :p

K.L.

03-11-07, 06:07 AM

but if you have some accidental event, a BD disc would probably be lost, while a HD DVD might be salvageable.Source? Or is it your conjecture?
Truth is that thanks to Durabis, Bluray is just as tough as DVDs and HDDVDs.Much more tougher than DVDs and HD DVDs.

Sketcha

03-11-07, 12:22 PM

What about all of these?
There does appear to be some anecdotal evidence, there. Would be nice to see more pics as per your request. The only one I saw was from a guy who presently has 12 posts. Who knows how many he had when he posted the shot.

Still, I would say this deserves some consideration.

It would not be "cool" if BDs are cold sensitive.

"Yeah, sorry, we at Netflix can only rent out BDs when the outside, temperature forecast for the route in question calls for 32 degrees F or above."

obispo21

03-11-07, 01:30 PM

Source? Or is it your conjecture?

No source, just my conjecture or "logical reasoning". My point was that the physical structure of BD discs is entirely reliant on it's hardcoat.

We all know that data on BD is much closer to the surface (like an upsidedown compact disc) and that without it's hardcoat would be very susceptible to damage (like the label side on a compact disc). Earlier versions in the Japanese market made use of disc caddies instead of a hardcoat.

For me the hardcoat looks to be *very* effective in normal circumstances and completely stops minor scratches and scuffs. However, the fact remains that if anything significant enough does happen to penetrate the hardcoat, there is effectively no room with which the disc could be "repaired" through polishing methods commonly used for DVD and CD.

The issue of "cracked" BD discs from Netflix is also not something that should be ignored. As MidnightWatcher points out, it *has* been discussed several times. My guess is these discs are experiencing side impacts during shipping, and that BD is vulnerable to such impacts because, despite the hardcoat being very strong, it is still very thin. We could test this out by taking a BD disc and giving it a good smack on it's side on a table corner. I don't have any I'm willing to sacrifice at the moment , but I think Best Buy is giving away free sampler discs one could try.

WayneL

03-11-07, 01:52 PM

Real world experience disagrees with you. There are zero reports of what you claim on this forum, and this place is full of people who would know.
Zero reports of what? There are no BDs out there without hard coat, AFIK, because as I said the format is more vulnerable to scratching and needs it, while the deeper data layer of HD-DVD precludes the need for it. If it was a problem for HD we would see a hard coat there too. Geez, fanbois.

WayneL

03-11-07, 02:00 PM

I can see any disk in any format shipped in -20 degree temps, being whacked by a 50# (20 kg) mailbag, cracking.

Sketcha

03-11-07, 02:18 PM

I can see any disk in any format shipped in -20 degree temps, being whacked by a 50# (20 kg) mailbag, cracking.
Yes, but are we hearing reports of that happening to HD DVDs?

WayneL

03-11-07, 02:22 PM

Yes, but are we hearing reports of that happening to HD DVDs?
I suppose the hardcoat could set up bending stresses when it gets cold, as it is a different material.

Icemage

03-11-07, 03:35 PM

Zero reports of what? There are no BDs out there without hard coat, AFIK, because as I said the format is more vulnerable to scratching and needs it, while the deeper data layer of HD-DVD precludes the need for it. If it was a problem for HD we would see a hard coat there too. Geez, fanbois.
First off, let's dispense with the personal attacks, shall we?

---

The only issue I have heard of with Blu-ray discs on this forum as far as rental services is cracking along the edges. This may be due to a combination of cold weather + some sort of mail sorting gear or processing gear putting too much stress on a disc; at the very least it appears to be a regional problem.

HD DVD discs, on the other hand, from what reports are available here, suffer from precisely the same problems that SD DVDs do. Sure, you can buff/restore some of the scratching, but not every user has access to a decent repair kit, and a lot of rental services will only use such under dire circumstances (as noted by several AVS members who have complained about scratched HD DVDs to their rental service and sometimes received the exact same disc back, unrepaired).

Whether you consider one problem to be more egregious than the other is an open question, but simply stating what the AVS forum users have reported does not make me a "fanboi".

AnthonyP

03-11-07, 05:04 PM

The only thing this video proves is that the "tester" doesn't know how to conduct a real test. Just because the disc appeared to load up does *not* mean that no damage was done. Who is to say that the movie would not have sputtered or stopped playing all together two minutes after it began? Not even a kangaroo court would allow something as laughable as this to be entered into evidence.

how do you know how long he played the disks. Or do you expect him to show us 2h (per test) of him watching a movie. Even better yet. Why don't you do the same test with one of your HD DVDs and then make a Youtube video of it.

AnthonyP

03-11-07, 05:11 PM

Yes, but are we hearing reports of that happening to HD DVDs?

yes (search the HD DVD forum- even in some of the BD threads from dual player owners) and even DVDs before that. It is just that HD DVD supporters and paid shills like to emphasize it more for BD. Though I don't think it is the cold. If you look at some of those threads you will see why. Some are from people in much hotter climates and even though cold for people is relative cold for disks is not.

MidnightWatcher

03-11-07, 11:21 PM

how do you know how long he played the disks. Or do you expect him to show us 2h (per test) of him watching a movie. Even better yet. Why don't you do the same test with one of your HD DVDs and then make a Youtube video of it.
Mon Dieu ami, from what we can see in the video and the lack of information stating otherwise, one can only deduce logically that his conclusion of "success" was based solely upon the disc appearing to load up, and nothing more. If the entire movie would have played successfully, he would have likely noted as much, oui?

yes (search the HD DVD forum- even in some of the BD threads from dual player owners) and even DVDs before that. It is just that HD DVD supporters and paid shills like to emphasize it more for BD. Though I don't think it is the cold. If you look at some of those threads you will see why. Some are from people in much hotter climates and even though cold for people is relative cold for disks is not.
There are virtually no reports of these exact outer-edge cracking issues occuring on HD DVD discs. The vast majority (if not all) are occuring on Blu-ray discs. I agree, however, that it is not the cold, but likely a rather unfortunate reality of Blu-ray's proprietary hard coat that was rushed to market.

WayneL

03-12-07, 07:45 PM

Considering just by clicking on the threads you linked to I can find quotes about DVD and HD DVD having them as well. For example
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9817277&&#post9817277
I found one report on HD cracking - a recollection, but several BD cases reported in that thread

AnthonyP

03-12-07, 09:17 PM

MidnightWatcher

03-12-07, 09:28 PM

no there is nothing logical about that. It is called jumping to a conclusion based on lack of facts. Or do you really think someone woykuld normaly tape second by second playback to make a 10h movie for you tube?
You do realize that it is you who felt the need to interject an ommitted premiss into the argument and felt the need to arrive at a baseless conclusion with the assertion that he may have played the entire movie but just decided to not reveal it to anyone. If that is the case, a serious question must be asked: WHY was it left out? The fact is that there is nothing to indicate that playback from beginning to end was successful. Nada. Something as significant as this bit of detail would not have been left out had the movie played back successfully from beginning to end. Being that is was such a poor 'test' to begin with, it is most likely that he did not bother to conduct a complete playability test at all.

well shows how much full of sh!t you are. Considering just by clicking on the threads you linked to I can find quotes about DVD and HD DVD having them as well. For example
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9817277&&#post9817277
Like I said, the vast majority (if not all) of the issues with the cracks that are being discussed are with the hard coat on Blu-ray discs. The crack described by your link may appear to be similar to what is being discussed, but since HD DVD does not require a hard coat it is most likely not the same type of crack and a photo of the disc could have likely ruled it out. The fact remains, however, that there are many, many more complaints about Blu-ray discs cracking than HD DVD. The question is WHY?

MidnightWatcher

03-12-07, 09:35 PM

that thread was in the BD section, obviously it would have more BD related posts. My point was I did not even need to look further then his threads to show that it is not format specific (as he has portrayed it). Some of the other threads also talk about it with DVD and HD DVD.
Ahhh... but the hard coat cracking IS format specific, because as we already know, only Blu-ray discs require this hard coat and the vast majority of complaints of this nature are regarding Blu-ray discs.

Mr. Hanky

03-12-07, 11:29 PM

...unless it isn't the hardcoat that is cracking, in which case either format could be susceptible to it.

AnthonyP

03-13-07, 12:15 AM

You do realize that it is you who felt the need to interject an ommitted premiss into the argument and felt the need to arrive at a baseless conclusion with the assertion that he may have played the entire movie but just decided to not reveal it to anyone. If that is the case, a serious question must be asked: WHY was it left out? The fact is that there is nothing to indicate that playback from beginning to end was successful. Nada. Something as significant as this bit of detail would not have been left out had the movie played back successfully from beginning to end. Being that is was such a poor 'test' to begin with, it is most likely that he did not bother to conduct a complete playability test at all.

1) I don’t think he watched the whole movie.
2) He does not need to watch the whole movie
3) You are assuming he did not play any of the movie
4) As he is doing each test you can see the disk and you can see that until the knife when plastic is staying on the knife) that you can’t see scratches

You are the one that decided there is some nefarious plot where the guy is not showing reality and how unplayable the disk really is.

Like I said, the vast majority (if not all) of the issues with the cracks that are being discussed are with the hard coat on Blu-ray discs. The crack described by your link may appear to be similar to what is being discussed, but since HD DVD does not require a hard coat it is most likely not the same type of crack and a photo of the disc could have likely ruled it out. The fact remains, however, that there are many, many more complaints about Blu-ray discs cracking than HD DVD. The question is WHY?

it is assumed by some (mainly you) that it is the HC. There is no proof that it is and none of the people that have seen it have said it is. For one thing since the HC thickness is measured in microns damage to it would not look like a crack but a scratch. You would need a magnifying glass to see it as something more

just for reference HC=2 microns, hair=90microns, paper is around 100 microns

Mr. Hanky

03-13-07, 01:44 AM

Excellent call, AnthonyP!

MidnightWatcher

03-13-07, 02:49 AM

1) I don’t think he watched the whole movie.
2) He does not need to watch the whole movie
3) You are assuming he did not play any of the movie
4) As he is doing each test you can see the disk and you can see that until the knife when plastic is staying on the knife) that you can’t see scratches

You are the one that decided there is some nefarious plot where the guy is not showing reality and how unplayable the disk really is.
The video speaks for itself, and on its own merit would not even be admissible in any court. Saying that one would not need to view the whole movie in order to draw a definitive, proof-positive conclusion is the zenith of incongruousness. Can you say, without any doubt, that the movie would play from beginning to end without issue, AND that any and all extras would be error-free? Can you say, without any doubt, that based on what you saw in that video the poster played the film from beginning to end, AND examined all extras? If you answer no to any of these points then the video is meaningless and worthless and a waste of bandwidth. This is compounded by the fact that the poster made no effort to show that the entire disc was ever tested, either explicitely or implicitely. Point to it all you like, but anyone with any sense of logic will know immediately that all it proves is that Blu-ray discs do in fact scratch despite their super-dee-duper coating. :p

it is assumed by some (mainly you) that it is the HC. There is no proof that it is and none of the people that have seen it have said it is. For one thing since the HC thickness is measured in microns damage to it would not look like a crack but a scratch. You would need a magnifying glass to see it as something more

just for reference HC=2 microns, hair=90microns, paper is around 100 microns
This is what we know:

1) Blu-ray discs employ a proprietary hard coat, out of necessity, to protect the data layer which is only 0.1 mm from the surface of a SL BD disc
2) HD DVD discs do not require a hard coat since the data layer is at least six times deeper at 0.6 mm
3) The overwhelming majority of outer-edge cracks that are beginning to cause problems are on Blu-ray discs
4) The primary physical difference between Blu-ray and HD DVD (besides the obvious data structure) is the hard coat that is being used on BDs

What conclusions can be drawn here? The obvious one is that the cracks on BD discs are likely being caused by (though not a primary cause since it does require an extraneous influence in order for the damage to occur) or exasperated by the use of their proprietary hard coat . Or the physical structure itself is compromised somehow in these cases making them susceptible to this type of damage. But why is it happening? No answers have been ascertained at this juncture, but no definitive answer does not negate the fact that these issues are happening, and are happening primarily on Blu-ray discs.

tindizzle

03-13-07, 02:56 AM

This is what we know:

1) Blu-ray discs employ a proprietary hard coat, out of necessity, to protect the data layer which is only 0.1 mm from the surface of a SL BD disc
2) HD DVD discs do not require a hard coat since the data layer is at least six times deeper at 0.6 mm
3) The overwhelming majority of outer-edge cracks that are beginning to cause problems are on Blu-ray discs
4) The primary physical difference between Blu-ray and HD DVD (besides the obvious data structure) is the hard coat that is being used on BDs

What conclusions can be drawn here? The obvious is that the cracks on BD discs are likely being caused by or exasperated by the use of their proprietary hard coat. Why is it happening? No answers have been ascertained at this juncture, but no definitive answer does not negate the fact that these issues are happening, and are happening primarily on Blu-ray discs.

#4 contradicts your #1 & 2. Your conclusion has no basis. Yes, some people are getting cracks but we do not know the cause yet.

MidnightWatcher

03-13-07, 03:02 AM

#4 contradicts your #1 & 2. Your conclusion has no basis. Yes, some people are getting cracks but we do not know the cause yet.
There is no contradiction. I've made an update to clear this up for you. The conclusion is drawn upon a direct correlation of the physical differences between the two formats.

tindizzle

03-13-07, 03:22 AM

The difference between the data depths of both formats is a bigger physical difference than the hard coating.

On a side note: The data layer on top of a CD is protected only by some lacquer and most of the time silk screening. CDs were pretty durable, no?

Nitron

03-13-07, 03:41 AM

What conclusions can be drawn here? The obvious one is that the cracks on BD discs are likely being caused by (though not a primary cause since it does require an extraneous influence in order for the damage to occur) or exasperated by the use of their proprietary hard coat . Or the physical structure itself is compromised somehow in these cases making them susceptible to this type of damage. But why is it happening? No answers have been ascertained at this juncture, but no definitive answer does not negate the fact that these issues are happening, and are happening primarily on Blu-ray discs.

Conclusions? More like speculations. The only conclusions I've seen in this thread is that blu-ray can be forcefully scratched with f**king STEEL wool and still remain functional. Yes there have been numerous reports of cracks in blu-ray discs, but the cause has not been explained. One person on the forums suggested that it is due to clumsy PS3 owners (PS3 = most popular BD player by far) who stand their systems vertically. The idea is that since the open inner ring of the discs is not accessible when the discs are fully ejected, it is easy for the discs to fall since there's no place to grip the discs. Since the system is stood up vertically, the disc falls on the edge and cracks. Again, this is only speculation, and is really the only potential cause I've heard about the cracks that makes sense.

And your sig. I'm sorry, but it made me literally laugh out loud. News flash, your format is losing on every possible front (inferior media selection both in quantity and [debatably] quality (not to be confused with PQ, although Crank on blu-ray has the best PQ if you want to go there), blu-ray has more international recognition (Japan is an example), blu-ray has the computing market (apple/dell/hp), hd-dvd is being outsold 2:1. Delirious much?

MidnightWatcher

03-13-07, 10:03 AM

Conclusions? More like speculations.
As I've already stated, nothing has been ascertained definitively. We still need to make conclusions based on the data we have. And the conclusion is that there appears to be an inherent PROBLEM with Blu-ray discs. The extent of it is unknown at this time.

The only conclusions I've seen in this thread is that blu-ray can be forcefully scratched with f**king STEEL wool and still remain functional.
Functional in terms of being recognized by the player? Yes. But functional in terms of the disc playing flawlessly from beginning to end? Absolutely not. To suggest otherwise is laughable.

Yes there have been numerous reports of cracks in blu-ray discs, but the cause has not been explained. One person on the forums suggested that it is due to clumsy PS3 owners (PS3 = most popular BD player by far) who stand their systems vertically. The idea is that since the open inner ring of the discs is not accessible when the discs are fully ejected, it is easy for the discs to fall since there's no place to grip the discs. Since the system is stood up vertically, the disc falls on the edge and cracks. Again, this is only speculation, and is really the only potential cause I've heard about the cracks that makes sense.
At least you admit that there is a problem with Blu-ray discs if they're this susceptible to cracking, despite a hard coat that should not only help resist scratches, but also inhibit this type of issue as well.

And your sig. I'm sorry, but it made me literally laugh out loud. News flash, your format is losing on every possible front (inferior media selection both in quantity and [debatably] quality (not to be confused with PQ, although Crank on blu-ray has the best PQ if you want to go there), blu-ray has more international recognition (Japan is an example), blu-ray has the computing market (apple/dell/hp), hd-dvd is being outsold 2:1. Delirious much?
You're more of a fanboy that I am, apparently. But, at least you found a reason to smile today. If you think that HD DVD is losing on every possible front, you're drunk on something Blu, and I'm not talking about Labatts.

Mr. Hanky

03-13-07, 11:59 AM

2) HD DVD discs do not require a hard coat since the data layer is at least six times deeper at 0.6 mm

This point is an example of not seeing the forest for the trees. It doesn't matter if the data layer is .6 mm or 1 mile deep, when scratches that affect playback, occur in the first few microns. The BR has a hardcoat to obviate this scenario, while the hdvd is left utterly unprotected. You don't need to scratch all .6mm of plastic to ruin a disc, anyway...and if the scratch is beyond the first 10 microns, it will be a difficult repair (if it can be repaired, at all). Again, this all leads back to the idea that it is better to resist scratches in the first place, rather than wait for it to get scratched and fix it later.

MidnightWatcher

03-13-07, 02:10 PM

This point is an example of not seeing the forest for the trees. It doesn't matter if the data layer is .6 mm or 1 mile deep, when scratches that affect playback, occur in the first few microns. The BR has a hardcoat to obviate this scenario, while the hdvd is left utterly unprotected. You don't need to scratch all .6mm of plastic to ruin a disc, anyway...and if the scratch is beyond the first 10 microns, it will be a difficult repair (if it can be repaired, at all). Again, this all leads back to the idea that it is better to resist scratches in the first place, rather than wait for it to get scratched and fix it later.
Wouldn't you agree that most of us here take care of our discs to begin with? I have over 600 DVDs and the small few that have ended up with a scratch are those where I've been careless, but they still all play perfectly fine. What needs to be noted is that Blu-ray REQUIRES a hard coat, otherwise the discs would likely be stuttering or unplayable with the slightest scratch, unlike DVD or HD DVD. Cracks, however, are an entirely separate issue. The hardness of the BD coat seems to be increasing the likelihood of this type of damage occurring, whereas HD DVD seems to have the added benefit of not succumbing to edge cracks nearly as easily, if at all.

Mr. Hanky

03-13-07, 02:49 PM

What needs to be noted is that Blu-ray REQUIRES a hard coat, otherwise the discs would likely be stuttering or unplayable with the slightest scratch, unlike DVD or HD DVD.

This is your own assertion that a given scratch will somehow affect BR, but not hd or dvd. No doubt you want this to be true, but it has hardly been substantiated that it IS true. The fact remains, BR has a hardcoat which will prevent scratches in cases where dvd and hd will get scratches. It is the latter 2 which will have more issues with playback in that scenario.

Cracks, however, are an entirely separate issue. The hardness of the BD coat seems to be increasing the likelihood of this type of damage occurring,...

Again, you have pulled this out of thin air. You have no idea if it is the hardness of the coating or not, or even that it is the hardcoat, in the first place. You are simply picking out a difference between 2 different media, and then assuming that difference must be a bad difference. It may or may not be true, or it may have nothing to do with the situation, at all. It's as ridiculous as assuming that since the laser has to shoot through more plastic in hdvd, that means the lifespan of the laser will be significantly shortened, requiring early replacement of the player. It is silly!

...whereas HD DVD seems to have the added benefit of not succumbing to edge cracks nearly as easily, if at all.

You are too quick to assume there is no problem there, as well. Ultimately, it may turn out to be a moot point, if it is just a matter of tweaking the manufacturing or adjusting certain binding elements.

MidnightWatcher

03-13-07, 03:12 PM

This is your own assertion that a given scratch will somehow affect BR, but not hd or dvd. No doubt you want this to be true, but it has hardly been substantiated that it IS true. The fact remains, BR has a hardcoat which will prevent scratches in cases where dvd and hd will get scratches. It is the latter 2 which will have more issues with playback in that scenario.
You do understand how close data is to the surface of a Blu-ray disc, and the inherent problem it presents when the laser has to focus on a layer that is so close to the surface, right? To use a loose analogy, take a pair of glasses that are scratched. If you are focused on something far away the scratch is hardly noticed. But focus on something much, much closer and the same scratch starts to become problematic. So, no, it is not my own assertion that a given scratch will somehow affect BR but not DVD or HD DVD. This is the nature of Blu-ray technology.

Again, you have pulled this out of thin air. You have no idea if it is the hardness of the coating or not, or even that it is the hardcoat, in the first place. You are simply picking out a difference between 2 different media, and then assuming that difference must be a bad difference. It may or may not be true, or it may have nothing to do with the situation, at all. It's as ridiculous as assuming that since the laser has to shoot through more plastic in hdvd, that means the lifespan of the laser will be significantly shortened, requiring early replacement of the player. It is silly!
Nothing was pulled out of thin air, the evidence is there. We have people complaining about edge cracks on their rental discs from Netflix and Blockbuster, and the overwhelming majority are with Blu-ray discs. Blu-ray discs have a different coating than HD DVD discs. From what I've been able to gather I can only extrapolate that the BD coat is AT LEAST partly to blame for this issue.

You are too quick to assume there is no problem there, as well. Ultimately, it may turn out to be a moot point, if it is just a matter of tweaking the manufacturing or adjusting certain binding elements.
Reports of Blu-ray discs exhibiting this issue and not HD DVD was not something that I assumed. It is from the reports on this forum, from Blu-ray owners themselves. Can it be something that is easily rectified at the manufacturing level? I would hope so. Wouldn't you rather that people raise the issue now, instead of remain silent? Until the problem is addressed people ought to complain, and complain loudly.

Nitron

03-13-07, 04:23 PM

At least you admit that there is a problem with Blu-ray discs if they're this susceptible to cracking, despite a hard coat that should not only help resist scratches, but also inhibit this type of issue as well.
I admit the discs crack, but how/why they do has not been explained. The example I gave would not be the fault of the disc. Maybe it is because of the hardcoating, but it isn't proven.

You're more of a fanboy that I am, apparently. But, at least you found a reason to smile today. If you think that HD DVD is losing on every possible front, you're drunk on something Blu, and I'm not talking about Labatts.
Eh, usually I wouldn't go out of the way to point out a sig, but when you have captions such as "HD-DVD wins" (when they're actually clear cut losing)...

Mr. Hanky

03-13-07, 04:38 PM

You do understand how close data is to the surface of a Blu-ray disc, and the inherent problem it presents when the laser has to focus on a layer that is so close to the surface, right?

Nevertheless, you have not substantiated that this would manifest itself as a problem in the manner that you describe. Again, you are simply taking things that are different between the 2 discs, oversimplifying a scenario, and then assuming it would be a problem. For all you know, a real size scratch looks a mile wide to the laser in either format, so focusing through .6 mm or not ends up a trivial difference in anything other than a simplified diagram suitably dumbed-down to mean something to the layperson?

You could also argue that since hdvd has a .6 mm cover layer, that demonstrates how feeble a construction it is to need that much plastic. It seems to "need" such protection, or they wouldn't build it that way, would they? Even then, it still gets scratches on the surface which in turn must be repaired by constant upkeep. These are ridiculously contrived talking points you are generating, and everyone here can see right through them.

From what I've been able to gather I can only extrapolate that the BD coat is AT LEAST partly to blame for this issue.

EXACTLY, you are extrapolating something, with very little other than your knowledge that 2 things are built differently. You want it to be true so badly, that you never even bother to ask yourself if there are other explanations, or if it even matters in the larger scope of things.

Wouldn't you rather that people raise the issue now, instead of remain silent? Until the problem is addressed people ought to complain, and complain loudly.

I doubt you are dwelling on the issue just to foster improvement. Clearly, you are trolling.

MidnightWatcher

03-13-07, 05:17 PM

Nevertheless, you have not substantiated that this would manifest itself as a problem in the manner that you describe. Again, you are simply taking things that are different between the 2 discs, oversimplifying a scenario, and then assuming it would be a problem. For all you know, a real size scratch looks a mile wide to the laser in either format, so focusing through .6 mm or not ends up a trivial difference in anything other than a simplified diagram suitably dumbed-down to mean something to the layperson?
Not substantiated? Oversimplifying? It is simple science, my friend. This is precisely the reason why early Blu-ray discs were initially enclosed in caddies.

You could also argue that since hdvd has a .6 mm cover layer, that demonstrates how feeble a construction it is to need that much plastic. It seems to "need" such protection, or they wouldn't build it that way, would they? Even then, it still gets scratches on the surface which in turn must be repaired by constant upkeep. These are ridiculously contrived talking points you are generating, and everyone here can see right through them.
It sounds like you don't understand how DVD and HD DVD discs are manufactured. DVD and HD DVD are two bonded 0.6 mm substrates in which the recording layer resides in between. The recording layer on Blu-ray discs sits on the surface of a 1.1 mm thick substrate that is protected by a 0.1 mm hard coat. HD DVD does not require a hard coat since protection is inherently "built-in", unlike Blu-ray. As I've said before, the BDA should have stuck with a caddie for protection. This would not only have prevented any sort of cracking issue with the hard coat, but would have also inhibited the push for dual-format players.

EXACTLY, you are extrapolating something, with very little other than your knowledge that 2 things are built differently. You want it to be true so badly, that you never even bother to ask yourself if there are other explanations, or if it even matters in the larger scope of things.
Then, pray tell, please reveal to us all why there are so many more Blu-ray discs exhibiting this issue than HD DVD?

I doubt you are dwelling on the issue just to foster improvement. Clearly, you are trolling.
Clearly, you do not want to acknowledge that there may be an issue with Blu-ray discs. Ignore it all you wish, but the problem will not go away and I suspect that it will get worse before it gets any better.

MidnightWatcher

03-13-07, 05:25 PM

I admit the discs crack, but how/why they do has not been explained. The example I gave would not be the fault of the disc. Maybe it is because of the hardcoating, but it isn't proven.
I agree, and we need more data. But the data we have so far seems to suggest that the issue is likely to be the hard coat.

Eh, usually I wouldn't go out of the way to point out a sig, but when you have captions such as "HD-DVD wins" (when they're actually clear cut losing)...
If we're to both be honest we would understand that neither is in a position to claim victory at this point. Let's revist this time next year to see where each format stands. I am confident that both will still be around and we'll have to say again at that time to revisit this time the following year...

Mr. Hanky

03-13-07, 05:46 PM

Not substantiated? Oversimplifying? It is simple science, my friend.

What science have you demonstrated? Creative storytelling, sure. Science, not so much.

This is precisely the reason why early Blu-ray discs were initially enclosed in caddies.

Early dvd computer media were in caddies, as well...but this doesn't count, right?

...but you are right, in this respect- a caddy does enable ultimate protection using very low-tech approach, regardless of the type of media that you put inside one.

It sounds like you don't understand how DVD and HD DVD discs are manufactured.

Yes, I'm well aware of the construction. You simply are failing to realize how your examples resemble the parody examples I give, as a demonstration of how silly they are.

The recording layer on Blu-ray discs sits on the surface of a 1.1 mm thick substrate that is protected by a 0.1 mm hard coat.

...yep, sounds like it is YOU that does not understand the construction. The protective coating is only microns thick, so already your example is missing a few things or has things switched around.

HD DVD does not require a hard coat since protection is inherently "built-in", unlike Blu-ray.

Evidently, hdvd does need a hardcoat if the surface can be scratched so easily. Also, by your logic, the hdvd "needs" a .6 mm layer of plastic, just like BR "needs" a hardcoating. One wonders how you are able to turn a blind eye at one while pointing it out as an inherent flaw in the other.

Then, pray tell, please reveal to us all why there are so many more Blu-ray discs exhibiting this issue than HD DVD?

How many? 6? You don't really know, yet you are ready to call the sky is falling. Make sense?

Clearly, you do not want to acknowledge that there may be an issue with Blu-ray discs. Ignore it all you wish, but the problem will not go away and I suspect that it will get worse before it gets any better.

I'm just clearing up your misrepresentations. :D

AnthonyP

03-13-07, 09:31 PM

Can you say, without any doubt, that the movie would play from beginning to end without issue

no but the question is how scratched it is. If there are no scratches and it is playing then all is OK. Can you say that an HD DVD taken out of a new wrapper might not have issues at some point?

The guy did not try and scratch a small part of the disk but put all his weight oin steal wool (or pizza cutter or....) all over the disk. If thye same test was done on an HD DVD the whole disk would be toast after any of those tests.

What conclusions can be drawn here?

that you like jumping to insane conclusions.

do you agree the hard coat is 2 micrometers

do you agree with

http://www.buildings.com/Articles/detailBuildings.asp?articleID=1699

In addition, normal eyesight can only see particles of about 40 microns in size.

do you agree 40um is 20x larger then 2um?

do you agree if it is the hard coat that cracked the crack would be 2um deep and so would not be anywhere near visible to the naked eye?

AnthonyP

03-13-07, 10:48 PM

Then, pray tell, please reveal to us all why there are so many more Blu-ray discs exhibiting this issue than HD DVD?

there are not. The reason is you post much more in those threads to make sure they are alive and make it lok worst i.e. in
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9447442&&#post9447442

you have 4 of 19 and don't even have a BD player or rent BDs (unless you do rent them to put cracks in them :))

for someone that thinks he is so smart you don't even seem to realize that it is much easier to pick 3 out of 10 numbers then 6 out of 49 or 100 out of several millions.

Netflix most likely buys a few tens of thousends (maybe even hundreds of thousend) of DVDs they probably just get a few hundreds of HD DVDs and BDs. Even if the cracking is the same you will naturally see it more in BDs because of the size of the disk pool.

As for HD DVD the opposite happen you have 5:1 the number of players the few hundreds disks are most likely going out much more.

Not substantiated? Oversimplifying? It is simple science,

no what you are doing is the same as lying on a beach for several hours and then saying it is simple science that since you were lying on the sand and did not move and since the sun went from your left to your right that the sun has moved. You took one over simplified statement (you did not move, which is true relative to the eartth but too simple for the univers) and one observation (the sun went from left to right) and did a majore jump to come to the wrong conclusion.

It sounds like you don't understand how DVD and HD DVD discs are manufactured. DVD and HD DVD are two bonded 0.6 mm substrates in which the recording layer resides in between. The recording layer on Blu-ray discs sits on the surface of a 1.1 mm thick substrate that is protected by a 0.1 mm hard coat. HD DVD does not require a hard coat since protection is inherently "built-in", unlike Blu-ray. As I've said before, the BDA should have stuck with a caddie for protection. This would not only have prevented any sort of cracking issue with the hard coat, but would have also inhibited the push for dual-format players.

no. in reality it is not. the whole disk is 1.2mm the data layer of HD DVD is not after .6mm but in the .6mm of plastic. And on a TL or hybrid the amount of plastic is even less between the surface and data.

For BD you are also wrong. The .1mm is the data layer. The hard coat is not .1mm thick, it is .002mm thick between .1 and .002 it is for the data. That is why BD can have up to 8 layers in theory.

Actually from the one pic, my guess some replicators are using two .6mm blancks to build the 1.1 mm substrate. Why? Because if you actually look at the pic you will see that it is not the .002mm HC that cracked nor the .1mm BD layer but looks to be close to mid disk

WayneL

03-14-07, 12:40 AM

If the cracks in BD are caused by extreme temperatures, it would make sense the cracks are concentric rather than radial. A difference in the coefficient of expansion of the hard coat and the substrate would make the disc deform like a cup. The side it cracks on depends if the hardcoat is on the inside or outside of the cup, and which material is weaker in shear. IMO Not my area of expertise

MidnightWatcher

03-14-07, 02:07 AM

What science have you demonstrated? Creative storytelling, sure. Science, not so much.

Early dvd computer media were in caddies, as well...but this doesn't count, right?

...but you are right, in this respect- a caddy does enable ultimate protection using very low-tech approach, regardless of the type of media that you put inside one.

I'm just clearing up your misrepresentations. :D
No need for creative story telling, switching things around or misrepresenations at all, just restating what BD owners are providing and analyzing what may be happening from what is being shared. It is actually good to raise issues like this to discuss a possible root cause and solution. From what I can tell so far, it is the proprietary hard coat, in which case the solution would be left to the BDA.

Yes, I'm well aware of the construction. You simply are failing to realize how your examples resemble the parody examples I give, as a demonstration of how silly they are.

...yep, sounds like it is YOU that does not understand the construction. The protective coating is only microns thick, so already your example is missing a few things or has things switched around.

Evidently, hdvd does need a hardcoat if the surface can be scratched so easily. Also, by your logic, the hdvd "needs" a .6 mm layer of plastic, just like BR "needs" a hardcoating. One wonders how you are able to turn a blind eye at one while pointing it out as an inherent flaw in the other.
Experts disagree with your assertions. For example, here is a scientific presentation to the industry presented by Hayatsu-san of NEC on June 12, 2003 (which Amirm posted for you here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8789094&&#post8789094) btw) :

http://ct.pbase.com/o5/08/632908/1/69525603.rYAHADW9.BD_HD_DVD.jpg

Whether the issue is scratches, fingerprints or dust the FACT remains (scientifically proven and exemplified by the millions upon millions of DVDs around the world today) that the HD DVD design is superior in that the reading depth of the data layer from the surface of the disc is much less obstructed by impediments that may reside on the surface, unlike Blu-ray. As was already stated, Blu-ray discs are fundamentally less robust at the physical level because of this. And when you also take into consideration the question surrounding the longevity of the hard coat that is being employed, a huge question looms over the long-term viability of the BD format all together in my mind, especially when edge cracking on Blu-ray discs are being reported this early in the game.

Out of curiosity, how long have you owned a Blu-ray player and discs, and how many of them have you rented from Netflix?

Mr. Hanky

03-14-07, 06:53 PM

Whether the issue is scratches, fingerprints or dust the FACT remains (scientifically proven and exemplified by the millions upon millions of DVDs around the world today) that the HD DVD design is superior in that the reading depth of the data layer from the surface of the disc is much less obstructed by impediments that may reside on the surface, unlike Blu-ray.

You have made the faulty assumption that the diagram you linked is a good representation of typical debris formation on a disc. In fact, it represents only a single scenario where debris happens to span less than a laser beam width (microns wide?). Now how often do you think this happens? Where do you place the likelihood that the kind of debris that you can see with the naked eye would span FAR beyond the width of a single laser beam? So that should lead you to realize that for typical scratches and debris, the laser is not going to be able to shine around it regardless if you are focusing at .1 or .6 mm into the media. That is what the diagram fails to tell you. Someone not knowing better (like you), simply looks at the diagram, sees it comes from "experts", and then assumes that is the only way the scenario ever occurs. This was indicated to you earlier when I said for all you know, a scratch may appear a mile wide from the respect of the laser, so how wide the beam is or how deep it focuses into the media ends up magnitudes of order out of scale to have a beneficial impact.

All this aside, you fail to realize the further ramification of this being that the media that has a protective coating that repels fingerprint debris and scratches is going to be in better shape than another media that courts fingerprint debris and scratches, where continued maintenance is required to achieve playback. So by your logic, again, you could say the hdvd "needs" to focus deeper and wider, since the cover layer it uses does nothing to abate occlusions from fingerprints or scratches. Even then it still seems to be vulnerable to bad read performance from micro-debris that is too small to see with the naked eye. This is suggested by the numerous topics in the hdvd section where a seemingly clean and pristine condition disc has trouble in the player, until you manually clean the surface of the disc, anyway. So the diagram you linked to seems to be indicative of something, but ironically it suggests another vulnerability of the design of hdvd, rather than something bad about BR.

TheLoveone

03-14-07, 07:34 PM

Whether the issue is scratches, fingerprints or dust the FACT remains (scientifically proven and exemplified by the millions upon millions of DVDs around the world today) that the HD DVD design is superior in that the reading depth of the data layer from the surface of the disc is much less obstructed by impediments that may reside on the surface, unlike Blu-ray. As was already stated, Blu-ray discs are fundamentally less robust at the physical level because of this. And when you also take into consideration the question surrounding the longevity of the hard coat that is being employed, a huge question looms over the long-term viability of the BD format all together in my mind, especially when edge cracking on Blu-ray discs are being reported this early in the game.

False. Lucky for you and the consumer, hardly anyone reads this forum and this thread and won't be subject to hearing these distorted lies.

If you want facts, the fact remains that most of us that own both formats find Blu-ray discs far more reliable. In fact it looks like you are the only person in here arguing otherwise, and wouldn't you know, look at your extremely one sided signature. How shocking.

Out of curiosity, how long have you owned a Blu-ray player and discs, and how many of them have you rented from Netflix?

I would like you to answer the same question.

It is pretty clear to me from your posts, signature, and general stance here that you don't have any experience with owning or renting Blu-ray at all. Am I wrong?

In fact it looks like you are the only person in this thread who is arguing that HD DVD's are more durable in the real world, the one we live in where HD DVD's are more easily scratched and result in more playback issues with rentals. Doesn't that tell you ANYTHING? That you are the ONE person arguing about all this, and you don't even own Blu-ray? I mean we are not all working for the BDA you know.

MidnightWatcher

03-14-07, 08:12 PM

You have made the faulty assumption that the diagram you linked is a good representation of typical debris formation on a disc. In fact, it represents only a single scenario where debris happens to span less than a laser beam width (microns wide?). Now how often do you think this happens? Where do you place the likelihood that the kind of debris that you can see with the naked eye would span FAR beyond the width of a single laser beam? So that should lead you to realize that for typical scratches and debris, the laser is not going to be able to shine around it regardless if you are focusing at .1 or .6 mm into the media. That is what the diagram fails to tell you. Someone not knowing better (like you), simply looks at the diagram, sees it comes from "experts", and then assumes that is the only way the scenario ever occurs. This was indicated to you earlier when I said for all you know, a scratch may appear a mile wide from the respect of the laser, so how wide the beam is or how deep it focuses into the media ends up magnitudes of order out of scale to have a beneficial impact.

All this aside, you fail to realize the further ramification of this being that the media that has a protective coating that repels fingerprint debris and scratches is going to be in better shape than another media that courts fingerprint debris and scratches, where continued maintenance is required to achieve playback. So by your logic, again, you could say the hdvd "needs" to focus deeper and wider, since the cover layer it uses does nothing to abate occlusions from fingerprints or scratches. Even then it still seems to be vulnerable to bad read performance from micro-debris that is too small to see with the naked eye. This is suggested by the numerous topics in the hdvd section where a seemingly clean and pristine condition disc has trouble in the player, until you manually clean the surface of the disc, anyway. So the diagram you linked to seems to be indicative of something, but ironically it suggests another vulnerability of the design of hdvd, rather than something bad about BR.
I understand your desire to gloss over the glaring drawbacks of Blu-ray, but I put more credence in what the experts have to say in this field and Blu-ray's drawbacks remain with respect to the physical design of the disc. As DVD is an already proven technology on the market today, years of market growth and reliability has already demonstrated the success of its design, and consequently so will HD DVD. Even PC Magazine, in their review of Samsung's BD-P1000, found it odd that Blu-ray discs were so sensitive in this regard:

"As for the Blu-ray discs themselves, I found them to be more sensitive to smudges and other nonpermanent marks than standard DVD videos and the HD DVD titles I've used, though they are more scratch-resistant than regular DVDs. I was somewhat surprised when the BD-P1000 ejected a Blu-ray movie with the message 'unreadable.'"

Fortunately, smudges can be cleaned. But who wants to worry about always having a pristine disc free from error when they're in the middle of watching a movie? Stutters, lockups, dropouts will often be a direct result of surface impediments on Blu-ray discs whereas they will be much less of a problem for HD DVD. Again, this problem is in addition to the issues that some users seem to be experiencing with BD's prioprietary hard coat.

Here are a few examples:

RyanHomsey (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9997077&&#post9997077) -- "So far I have rented three BR disks from Netflix, the first arrived in perfect shape. The second two arrived with a tiny crack at the edge of the disks. I've been renting from netflix for years and the only two cracked disks I have gotten were cracked right in half from some idiot at the postal service placing weight on them."

akbungle (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9998097&&#post9998097) -- "So anyway to add to the comments for this tread I too have had a large percentage of blu-ray rentals from BB had issues. I have rented like six and the copy of MI:3 and The Prestige have both been bad. Oddly with MI:3 I could not see a flaw but with The Prestige their was a sizable chunk missing ( it looked like someone put a small piece of tape directly on the surface of the disc)."

schaffer970 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9555732&&#post9555732) -- "I have now received two discs (out of about 15) that have had a small crack in the edge of the disc. Both discs played the movie ok (some of the extras wouldn't play on one of the discs). Has anyone else seen this problem? Any thoughts about why this is happening?"

userx (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9604036&&#post9604036) -- "Ok, I am getting a little upset here. The last two Blu-ray discs I have recieved from Netflix have been damaged and unplayable. Both of them have the same problem, a small crack formed on the edge of the disc. I live in CT and it has been pretty cold here in the for the last week or so (mid teens - near zero at night) and I am wondering if it is having an effect on the discs, making them brittle or something. The regular dvd's I have got in the same time frame are fine. Any body else experience this?"

userx (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9608570&&#post9608570) -- "The crack was only on the protective layer in both cases.... Both discs with these cracks would not play via the PS3"

JamesMH (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9620180&&#post9620180) -- "Got that same crack on Superman II from Netflix too, but was mostly watchable."

ThePrisoner (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9998368&&#post9998368) -- "I seen my first cracked BD from Netflix, it was Flyboys. Outer edge had small crack. Toward the end of the movie where they take down the German zeppelin the picture froze. Ejected it and cleaned the disc and noticed the crack. It played fine than another stutter but didn't freeze."

bdshort (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9999815&&#post9999815) -- "When I rented X:3 awhile back, it was cracked as well. It looked just like the picture that was posted. I'm wondering if it's an issue with the BD discs themselves (spontaneous cracking due to cold or a flaw in manufacturing, or something else), or if these discs are being abused in the mail, and the hard coat is actually keeping the disc from cracking further. Not that it matters, because the damaged discs wont play!"

sethhobrin (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9803409&&#post9803409) -- "I have been renting blu ray movies from blockbuster online total access since early January. I have probably gotten about 15 or so titles and I would have to say that about 50% of them have cracks on the edges going inward about 1/4 of an inch or so. How the heck does this happen? It makes the disc totally unplayable. I have been renting movies online for years and have NEVER seen this on DVDs."

mudfootLgt (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9907991&&#post9907991) -- "I receive The Covenant the other day from Netflix with the crack at the edge."

There are others who are reporting these issues as well on this forum alone. But just how many are also experiencing these issues that we do not know about? It certainly doesn't bode well, in my opinion, when a format that is renting a relatively small number of discs to a relatively small number of users is already having an unexpected issue such as this, especially when one of its "selling features" was a protective hard coat. One would think tha this would not only resist scratches, but prevent this sort of issue as well.

If you want facts, the fact remains that most of us that own both formats find Blu-ray discs far more reliable. In fact it looks like you are the only person in here arguing otherwise, and wouldn't you know, look at your extremely one sided signature.

I would like you to answer the same question.

It is pretty clear to me from your posts, signature, and general stance here that you don't have any experience with owning or renting Blu-ray at all. Am I wrong?

In fact it looks like you are the only person in this thread who is arguing that HD DVD's are more durable in the real world, the one we live in where HD DVD's are more easily scratched and result in more playback issues with rentals. Doesn't that tell you ANYTHING? That you are the ONE person arguing about all this, and you don't even own Blu-ray? I mean we are not all working for the BDA you know.

The only one? Hardly my friend, and yes I own HD DVD only. I've looked at the Blu-ray format in depth, and have decided that it is too risky to invest. The physical nature of the disc itself, their yet-to-be-proven proprietary hard coat, the questions that still surround Blu-ray's long term viability are still up on the air.

Whether it is DVD, HD DVD or Blu-ray users are bound to come across issues from time to time, but when a format proclaims itself as better than their competitor, why are these cracking issues cropping up so early in the game? DVD (and HD DVD) is a proven technology. There are millions upon millions of DVDs out there. Sure, Blu-ray may have their scratch resistant coating and some may perceive them to be more durable, but the only thing that Blu-ray is proving right now is that there is a definite cause to be concerned.

Mr. Hanky

03-14-07, 08:39 PM

Fortunately, smudges can be cleaned. But who wants to worry about always having a pristine disc free from error when they're in the middle of watching a movie? Stutters, lockups, dropouts will often be a direct result of surface impediments on Blu-ray discs whereas they will be much less of a problem for HD DVD.

Except just the reverse seems to be evident by examining the topics in the hdvd forums. Hdvd's have proven to be quite fussy when it comes to fingerprints and scratches, and even fussy when the disc looks utterly pristine. So clearly there is more happening then your simplified preconceptions of the 2 formats.

Mr. Hanky

03-14-07, 08:43 PM

But just how many are also experiencing these issues that we do not know about?

How many are having a troublefree experience, as well? YOU HAVEN'T BOTHERED TO FIGURE THIS OUT. So how can you have any concept of the problem being widespread or rare fluke? You can't, because you lack the information to make such an assessment.

TheLoveone

03-14-07, 09:15 PM

I understand your desire to gloss over the glaring drawbacks of Blu-ray, but I put more credence in what the experts have to say in this field and Blu-ray's drawbacks remain with respect to the physical design of the disc.

Actually the experts are on this right very thread, and most of us are finding Blu-ray far more durable.

I'm wondering why you 1) Ignore all of these people, people with real experience, and 2) Why you ignore any "experts" who happen to discuss Blu-ray's hard coat and its given advantages? Don't you find it a bit ironic to tell someone ELSE that they "gloss over the glaring drawbacks of Blu-ray" yet I haven't seen you admit one single drawback to HD DVD. In your world it appears there are none. But we all know they scratch more easily and are less durable with rentals. Go ahead--do a poll.

The only one? Hardly my friend, and yes I own HD DVD only.

Yes you are the only one. Actually it looks like there is one other guy, rdjam, but he shares an equally biased signature. I know you can understand why some of us might find it difficult to believe what someone says regarding Blu-ray when they 1) Don't own it, 2) Don't have any experience with it and 3) Have a link to an article in their signature entitled "HD DVD Wins" (which is ludicrous).

I liked at the Blu-ray format in depth, and have decided that it is too risky to invest. The physical nature of the disc itself, their yet-to-be-proven proprietary hard coat, the questions that still surround Blu-ray's long term viability are still up on the air.

As someone who owns and enjoys Blu-ray, I just find the above quote and the fear of owning it just absolutely amazing. I have to admit I read this quote in amazement. I am simply amazed that not only do you feel HD DVD's are more reliable, but you are saying this as someone who has absolutely no experience with Blu-ray beyond what looks like some VERY selective reading on this forum. But what really amazes me is that you have taken this all even further and, let me get this straight, are claiming that Blu-ray discs are not just less reliable, but they are inherently UNreliable and a RISKY product to own?

Just unbelievable stuff.

yellowlt4

03-14-07, 10:08 PM

As someone who owns and enjoys Blu-ray, I just find the above quote and the fear of owning it just absolutely amazing. I have to admit I read this quote in amazement. I am simply amazed that not only do you feel HD DVD's are more reliable, but you are saying this as someone who has absolutely no experience with Blu-ray beyond what looks like some VERY selective reading on this forum. But what really amazes me is that you have taken this all even further and, let me get this straight, are claiming that Blu-ray discs are not just less reliable, but they are inherently UNreliable and a RISKY product to own?

Just unbelievable stuff.

It shouldn't surprise or amaze you on this forum, his post was simple fanboy FUD.

MidnightWatcher

03-15-07, 12:32 AM

How many are having a troublefree experience, as well? YOU HAVEN'T BOTHERED TO FIGURE THIS OUT. So how can you have any concept of the problem being widespread or rare fluke? You can't, because you lack the information to make such an assessment.
There are many who are having a trouble-free experience with both HD DVD and Blu-ray. But that is not the focus of this discussion.

Except just the reverse seems to be evident by examining the topics in the hdvd forums. Hdvd's have proven to be quite fussy when it comes to fingerprints and scratches, and even fussy when the disc looks utterly pristine. So clearly there is more happening then your simplified preconceptions of the 2 formats.
Like I have already stated above, there will be issues with any format, be it regular DVD, HD DVD or Blu-ray. I did not claim that issues were never experienced with anything other than Blu-ray, only that the physical nature of BD makes it more prone to read errors, and that there were an unusually high number of users IMO who were experiencing cracking issues with their Blu-ray rental discs. As far as discs that look utterly pristine are concerned, yes, even Blu-ray has those problems. Here are a few examples:

* 50 First Dates not playing properly (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=816620)
* Speed refusing to work (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=763242)
* Descent not working (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=775370)
* Issues (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=774609) with Good Night and Good Luck
* Chronos refuses (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9701401&&#post9701401) to play
* Lip-sync problems (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=773542) with Christmas Vacation
* Talladega Nights not playing (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=768849)
* Kung Fu Hustle not playing (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=768115)
* Legends of Jazz not playing (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=761266)
* League of Extraordinary Gentlemen will not play properly (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=758019)

Actually the experts are on this right very thread, and most of us are finding Blu-ray far more durable. I'm wondering why you 1) Ignore all of these people, people with real experience, and 2) Why you ignore any "experts" who happen to discuss Blu-ray's hard coat and its given advantages? Don't you find it a bit ironic to tell someone ELSE that they "gloss over the glaring drawbacks of Blu-ray" yet I haven't seen you admit one single drawback to HD DVD. In your world it appears there are none. But we all know they scratch more easily and are less durable with rentals. Go ahead--do a poll.... Actually it looks like there is one other guy, rdjam, but he shares an equally biased signature. I know you can understand why some of us might find it difficult to believe what someone says regarding Blu-ray when they 1) Don't own it, 2) Don't have any experience with it
I am not ignoring anything. Again, the focus is on the issues that are present with a format that has the data only 0.1 mm from the disc's surface, AND the apparent issues that are present with Blu-ray's proprietary hard coat. Per a previous post, you can see that there are quite a few who OWN Blu-ray that are SHARING playback and cracking issues. (Do I need to own a gun to know I'll bleed if I shoot myself in the leg? By your own argument, someone like Mr. Hanky should not speak at all since it seems that he does not even own Blu-ray or even HD DVD to begin with!). I do agree that a hard coat has its advantages, but the issue is not a hard coat per se. From what others are sharing it seems that there is ALSO a disadvantage to this hard coat (which is absolutely REQUIRED for all Blu-ray discs). What people need to decide upon are the pros and cons of:

1a: The format that is more prone to read errors but comes with a scratch resistant coating
1b: The format that scratches more easily but is less likely to experience read errors
2a: The format that is unproven -- both the physical robustness of the media and proprietary coating employed
2b: The format that is proven -- longterm viability has been demonstrated for many years
3a: The format that is likely NOT repairable should a significant scratch occur
3b: The format that is likely EASY to repair should a significant scratch occur

I look at it this way:

1: I take good care of my discs. Scratches will be of little concern, therefore I opt for the format less prone to read errors. Choice: HD DVD.
2: I've had great success with my DVD collection (over 600, a few minor scratches on a few discs but all play perfectly fine) and rentals (dozens of rentals, I can count the few playback issues I've had on one hand. No cracks that I can recall on either my collection or rental discs). Choice: HD DVD.
3: I've not had to repair any DVDs in my collection, but it is good to know that the option is there. Choice: HD DVD.

Moreover, in terms of the overall price of each format, it was easy since HD DVD is still the lower cost format to get into. In terms of content, HD DVD has excellent films being released that will satisfy my HD needs for years to come.

As someone who owns and enjoys Blu-ray, I just find the above quote and the fear of owning it just absolutely amazing. I have to admit I read this quote in amazement. I am simply amazed that not only do you feel HD DVD's are more reliable, but you are saying this as someone who has absolutely no experience with Blu-ray beyond what looks like some VERY selective reading on this forum. But what really amazes me is that you have taken this all even further and, let me get this straight, are claiming that Blu-ray discs are not just less reliable, but they are inherently UNreliable and a RISKY product to own?
No. But you have absolutely no data that tells us that Blu-ray is more reliable, now do you? I recognize the BDA's propoganda machine when I see it, and refuse to be pwned by them by wearing the blue "rose-colored" glasses they love to hand out. They can make all the claims they like and try to convince me with their "psychological warfare", but no thanks. What I am saying is that there are some inherent issues with Blu-ray, which is an UNPROVEN format. Sometimes risks are good to take, but in this case, I'll pass.

onanie

03-15-07, 01:17 AM

obispo21

03-15-07, 01:50 AM

It ought to be an easy concept that the presence of a protective layer improves durability, regardless of what is underneath.

There isn't anything to contradict this natural expectation.

I don't agree with this really at all. BD is fragile without protection... we're all aware of this. The price paid for high capacity is a data layer that is very close to the surface and densely packed pits.

Without a protective coating, scratches and damage are a problem for BD, as evidenced by the use of the caddies for the original BD recordable format in Japan.

I do agree that it's protective coating seems really good. All of the BD discs I own and have seen have been pristine. But adding a protective coating to BD, which is by nature more fragile doesn't imply anything about Blu-ray's overall durability when compared to HD DVD.

Remember, HD DVD has 6 times as much material that must be penetrated before the actual data is damaged. The material strength is significantly less than that of BD's hardcoat, but 6 times less? To what kinds of force? I don't think we know for sure.

Certainly HD DVDs could be rendered un-readable with just surface scratches... but perhaps still repairable. If something is suffient to get past BD's hardcoat, it's effectivey un-repairable since the data is gone.

Does any of this directly imply that BD is as a whole more durable than HD DVD? I definitely don't think so.

MidnightWatcher

03-15-07, 01:57 AM

midnightwatcher,

Are we still talking about durability? It ought to be an easy concept that the presence of a protective layer improves durability, regardless of what is underneath.

There isn't anything to contradict this natural expectation. The onus is on you to provide good evidence of higher failure rate on BD discs, apart from the few anecdotal comments that may well be due to manufacturing or software errors, rather than a problem with *durability*. Please understand this concept.
It should be an easy concept, I agree, especially in the strictest definition of the word, but I believe that the question of what constitutes durability goes beyond the simple inclusion of a hardcoat = a more durable disc. There are other factor that should be considered in my opinion, such as Which is more prone to error? Which is more likely to be repairable if scratches occur? Which has a proven track record? Are any potential problems surfacing?

Maybe there are a few others to add to the list of criteria, but I am not claiming that BD discs fail more than HD DVD or have more physical issues. I am simply demonstrating that BD discs WILL fail, that they WILL have issues and that the physical characteristics of Blu-ray discs do have some drawbacks. Some would conclude that in the short term, BD may be more "durable", but in the long term HD DVD would endure better since they can be repaired. I just believe that people should be well informed as they decide for themselves which they believe to be more "durable". Like I said, I don't believe that it is simply a matter of a hard coat translating into a more durable disc.

Mr. Hanky

03-15-07, 02:33 AM

I did not claim that issues were never experienced with anything other than Blu-ray, only that the physical nature of BD makes it more prone to read errors,...

...in a specific scenario, sure, but how does this extend to real scenarios? The diagram you linked to seemed to skip over mentioning what happens if a series of closely spaced particles are encountered. In that event, a wide cone beam would be occluded on the sides (where it should "see around" the particle), and only a small amount of signal makes it in between the particles to read the data pit. A narrow cone beam would pass between the particles at nearly full signal strength. So a scenario certainly exists where one design will assuredly read better than the other. So it isn't a matter of BR simply being more prone to read errors. It depends entirely on the nature of the debris particles- one all by its lonesome or many spread out over a patch, for example. Honestly, which one do you think is more likely? I think your diagram can pretty well be considered debunked, by now.

...and that there were an unusually high number of users IMO who were experiencing cracking issues with their Blu-ray rental discs.

How did you quantify an "unusually high number"? Do you know the total number of users? If not, then you have no idea if the sampling you have is "widespread" or "rare fluke".

As far as discs that look utterly pristine are concerned, yes, even Blu-ray has those problems. Here are a few examples:

Do you bother to qualify that the problems with these discs are firmware/authoring issues? That's another topic altogether. I was talking about pristine hdvd discs that seemingly become playable only after you "wash" them, and then you deliberately give an example of something from an entirely different situation?

You seem to be applying a doublestandard to what is needed between the 2 formats, as well. You cite BR needs a hardcoat as a failing, yet ignore that hdvd also "needs" a .6 mm cover layer to protect the data layer. The reality is that the constructions are more similar than you are willing to admit, and your own biases seem to force you to find ways that one must be better than the other w/o considering how they really hold out in real use.

onanie

03-15-07, 03:38 AM

IRemember, HD DVD has 6 times as much material that must be penetrated before the actual data is damaged. The material strength is significantly less than that of BD's hardcoat, but 6 times less? To what kinds of force? I don't think we know for sure.

Thickness of the material is irrelevant, when overshadowed by the presence of purpose-built protection. Data readability could be affected by any surface abberation - it does not matter how deeply situated the encoding is. Hardcoat is meant to prevent this - not the underlying plastic that both format shares.

onanie

03-15-07, 03:41 AM

Some would conclude that in the short term, BD may be more "durable", but in the long term HD DVD would endure better since they can be repaired.

I don't know how something can be durable in the short term - that is an oxymoron. And you must be kidding to say that damaged HD DVDs could be repaired.

Supermans

03-15-07, 04:20 AM

So which is more prone to surviving a deep freeze or being torched? Which will last longer as a frisbee and still be playable? This is getting silly to read. Blu-Ray discs are simply stronger than HD-DVD...period.. It is quite clear that HD-DVD's are more prone to scratches because they lack a protective layer that is as strong as Blu-Ray's. Now, if you stick a blu-ay disc in the freezer and drop it on its side, you have issues and need a shrink to help you figure out the difference between a Blu-Ray disc and a frozen pancake.

Ilka

03-15-07, 10:20 AM

Too much FUD and speculation!

Can an insider contact a high-volume renter (e.g., Netflix) and ask them for their real-life failure-experience rates with the various formats? I'd be surprised if they didn't track that kind of info. IIRC, I read that DVDs average about 14 rentals before becoming unusable, but don't quote me on that :)

MidnightWatcher

03-15-07, 10:30 AM

...in a specific scenario, sure, but how does this extend to real scenarios? The diagram you linked to seemed to skip over mentioning what happens if a series of closely spaced particles are encountered. In that event, a wide cone beam would be occluded on the sides (where it should "see around" the particle), and only a small amount of signal makes it in between the particles to read the data pit. A narrow cone beam would pass between the particles at nearly full signal strength. So a scenario certainly exists where one design will assuredly read better than the other. So it isn't a matter of BR simply being more prone to read errors. It depends entirely on the nature of the debris particles- one all by its lonesome or many spread out over a patch, for example. Honestly, which one do you think is more likely? I think your diagram can pretty well be considered debunked, by now.
Not at all. Specific scenarios will indeed extend to real world scenarios. The purpose of the diagram was to show one of the drawbacks of the physical design of Blu-ray by demonstrating the effects of, for instance, a fingerprint. Other real world scenarios will include "closely spaced particles" as well. The bottom line is that this design will lead to increased read errors for Blu-ray discs.

How did you quantify an "unusually high number"? Do you know the total number of users? If not, then you have no idea if the sampling you have is "widespread" or "rare fluke".
I quantify an 'unusually high number' when I read things from different users such as:

** "I too have had a large percentage of blu-ray rentals from BB [which have] had issues", and
** "The last two Blu-ray discs I have recieved from Netflix have been damaged and unplayable... the crack was only on the protective layer in both cases", and
** "I have probably gotten about 15 or so titles and I would have to say that about 50% of them have cracks... I have been renting movies online for years and have NEVER seen this on DVDs", and
** "I've been renting from netflix for years and the only two cracked disks I have gotten were cracked right in half".

It does not sound like a rare fluke to me.

Do you bother to qualify that the problems with these discs are firmware/authoring issues? That's another topic altogether. I was talking about pristine hdvd discs that seemingly become playable only after you "wash" them, and then you deliberately give an example of something from an entirely different situation?
Yes. Whether the issue is with firmware/authoring or, as you like to call it, a "rare fluke" the point is that there will be times when a seemingly clean disc will not play, for whatever reason.

You seem to be applying a doublestandard to what is needed between the 2 formats, as well. You cite BR needs a hardcoat as a failing, yet ignore that hdvd also "needs" a .6 mm cover layer to protect the data layer. The reality is that the constructions are more similar than you are willing to admit, and your own biases seem to force you to find ways that one must be better than the other w/o considering how they really hold out in real use.
Any optical format will need to protect its data layer. HD DVD has this protection built in. I am not saying that the use of a hard coat is a failing, but Blu-ray is by its physical nature extremely delicate and MUST employ the use of a scratch resistant coat. This is an undeniable fact. The problem with Blu-ray is both the distance between the surface and the data, as well as the questionable longevity of the hard coat being used.

I don't know how something can be durable in the short term - that is an oxymoron.
Precisely.

And you must be kidding to say that damaged HD DVDs could be repaired.
No. HD DVDs can often be repaired just as standard DVDs can often be repaired. Try doing that with a Blu-ray disc.

Don Diotte, CEO of Venmill Industries which, among other things, repairs/resurfaces scratched DVDs, said the following in The Winnipeg Free Press, Page E5, Nov 15, 2006:

"Blu-ray may hold more data than HD-DVD disks, but there is a trade-off. To fit more information on the disk, Sony had to reduce the thickness of the protective coating. Consequently, the discs are much more vulnerable to scratches... In the USA there's a billion dollar buy-sell industry around computer games. I do not know how they're going to face the reality that Blu-Ray is an unrepairable format."

As I have stated a number of times, if a Blu-ray disc does get scratched (and they do scratch despite the resistant coating), they run the serious risk of damaging the data layer, and the physical nature of this disc does not allow them to be repaired easily, if at all.

Mr. Hanky

03-15-07, 11:57 AM

The purpose of the diagram was to show one of the drawbacks of the physical design of Blu-ray by demonstrating the effects of, for instance, a fingerprint.

...and the example I gave you as an alternate to the diagram shows the "drawbacks" of the physical design of hdvd. What you seem to be ignoring is that any sort of diagram can be conjured to show either format at a disadvantage. What it comes down to is that dust/debris/scratches will have an impact, regardless of the design of the format. A wide beam focusing deep into the media may do well in one instance where it can shine around a single particle, but then not work well the next instance where it has to shine in between 2 neighboring particles. A narrow, concentrated beam may not do well in one instance where it has to shine through a single particle, but then may do very well the next instant where it can shine between 2 neighboring particles. The design advantage swaps back and forth, entirely based upon how the debris particles are oriented, hence this is not a good basis to suggest one design will inherently have more read problems than the other. You need to come to grips with this, instead of clinging to an old, crudely drawn diagram that only shows a single scenario of beam obstruction. It only tells a small part of the story, and it isn't even clear if proper scale is observed between the various elements in the picture (the proper scale and orientation of things would be crucial to really determine if line of sight is truly obstructed or not).

I quantify an 'unusually high number' when I read things from different users such as:

So your assessment is based on someone else's hyperbole, rather than actual hard numbers. Sorry, you have no case. This is like saying BR disc sales are brisk because some people on the internet have posted they bought a whole bunch while at the store. Now we know, you would never accept that as "evidence", hence, your assessment of "unusually high" numbers is similarly faulty.

tindizzle

03-15-07, 06:42 PM

A few things on fingerprint resistance on BD-ROM:
From this link http://www.blu-raydisc.com/assets/downloadablefile/general_bluraydiscformat-12834.pdf

BD's hard-coating resists fingerprints as shown here:
http://www.smugmug.com/photos/136248768-O.jpg
AFP = Artificial Finger Print
(a) is a tradition polycarbonate surface
(c) is a conventional UV-curable hard-coat
(c') is a hard-coat with anti-finger print properties

Although only “fingerprint repellency” was described in this article, the discs (c) and (c’) are superior to
the disc (a) also in terms of “fingerprint removability”. It should be noted that the new hard-coat (c’)
combined with the spin-coated cover layer has good production ability and will achieve the production cost
comparable to that of recordable DVDs.
With BD's anti-fingerprint hard-coat combined with 2x stronger ECC described here (http://www.blu-raydisc.com/assets/downloadablefile/BD-ROMwhitepaper20051123clean22-13264.pdf), BD should have no problem with fingerprints/dust. Also, as mentioned in the white paper, BD has the same error correction properties as a 1.2mm cover layer.

This is also interesting (from the first white paper)
http://www.smugmug.com/photos/136256966-O.jpg

MidnightWatcher

03-15-07, 08:14 PM

A few things on fingerprint resistance on BD-ROM:
From this link http://www.blu-raydisc.com/assets/downloadablefile/general_bluraydiscformat-12834.pdf

BD's hard-coating resists fingerprints as shown here:
AFP = Artificial Finger Print
(a) is a tradition polycarbonate surface
(c) is a conventional UV-curable hard-coat
(c') is a hard-coat with anti-finger print properties

With BD's anti-fingerprint hard-coat combined with 2x stronger ECC described here (http://www.blu-raydisc.com/assets/downloadablefile/BD-ROMwhitepaper20051123clean22-13264.pdf), BD should have no problem with fingerprints/dust. Also, as mentioned in the white paper, BD has the same error correction properties as a 1.2mm cover layer.

This is also interesting (from the first white paper)
What you are pointing out is referring to BD-RE discs, not BD-ROM, but thank you for posting this. You are proving my point. To quote from the .PDF you provided, page 29 states:

"BD is much more sensitive to scratches and fingerprints compared with DVD. Slight scratch or fingerprints will cause deterioration of error rates and/or loss of tracking servo control." Hence the need for a protective hard coat.

I'm sure that Mr. Hanky and a few others will still want argue against that, however. But, again, this is evidenced when PC Magazine's review of the Samsung BD-P1000 pointed out:

"As for the Blu-ray discs themselves, I found them to be more sensitive to smudges and other nonpermanent marks than standard DVD videos and the HD DVD titles I've used, though they are more scratch-resistant than regular DVDs. I was somewhat surprised when the BD-P1000 ejected a Blu-ray movie with the message 'unreadable.'"

What you seem to be ignoring is that any sort of diagram can be conjured to show either format at a disadvantage. What it comes down to is that dust/debris/scratches will have an impact, regardless of the design of the format. A wide beam focusing deep into the media may do well in one instance where it can shine around a single particle, but then not work well the next instance where it has to shine in between 2 neighboring particles. A narrow, concentrated beam may not do well in one instance where it has to shine through a single particle, but then may do very well the next instant where it can shine between 2 neighboring particles. The design advantage swaps back and forth, entirely based upon how the debris particles are oriented, hence this is not a good basis to suggest one design will inherently have more read problems than the other.
As Amirm has already pointed out to you, the relative ratio of 526um beam spot versus 123 um is a constant. In case of HD DVD, the beam is 4X wider than BD, allow a laser to shine past obstacles that completely block the laser in BD.

Again, remember that what this graph shows, is in practice today in the form of billions of DVDs. So it is up to BD to show that much smaller beam spot size and finer pitch does not cause significant issues here with readability.

So your assessment is based on someone else's hyperbole, rather than actual hard numbers. Sorry, you have no case. This is like saying BR disc sales are brisk because some people on the internet have posted they bought a whole bunch while at the store. Now we know, you would never accept that as "evidence", hence, your assessment of "unusually high" numbers is similarly faulty.
Hyperbole? These are BD users who are renting from Netflix and/or Blockbuster who are giving specific numbers, and these users who are posting here is but a fraction of owners. If you want to claim that they're exaggerating, then why don't you ask them if they're inflating the number of issues they're encountering? Nice try. By the way, how many Blu-ray discs have you rented from Netflix?

ResOGlas

03-15-07, 08:35 PM

Why don't you guys just go to your local best buy and grab the free sample NIN Blu-Ray and HD DVD discs and find out for yourself.

HD DVDs scratch easily and Blu-Ray discs do not.

As for the cracks, why not give it some honest tests if it really bugs you. Frizbee, freezer, dropping...

WayneL

03-15-07, 08:53 PM

Midnight - hang in - you're proving there aren't 40 virgins awaiting them

tindizzle

03-15-07, 09:38 PM

What you are pointing out is referring to BD-RE discs, not BD-ROM, but thank you for posting this. You are proving my point. To quote from the .PDF you provided, page 29 states:

This does apply to BD-ROM. They both have hard coats. What's the difference?

"BD is much more sensitive to scratches and fingerprints compared with DVD. Slight scratch or fingerprints will cause deterioration of error rates and/or loss of tracking servo control." Hence the need for a protective hard coat.

This quote refers to BD-RE cartridges without a hard coat. BD-ROM with HC has superior fingerprint and scratch resistance. Yes, BD needs a hard coat, but all blu-ray discs have the HC now. Do I have to pay more for the hard coat? No. Do I have to worry about friends scratching my discs that I loan them? No.

Mr. Hanky

03-15-07, 09:54 PM

As Amirm has already pointed out to you, [I]the relative ratio of 526um beam spot versus 123 um is a constant. In case of HD DVD, the beam is 4X wider than BD, allow a laser to shine past obstacles that completely block the laser in BD.

...and in the same sense, a beam that is 1/4 the size will be able to shoot between neighboring obstacles with a surgical precision not possible with the hdvd beam. So it ends up being give and take depending on the congestion of the "obstacles".

Now here's a question for you- judging from the slides that tindizzle provided, how big do you estimate the spots are from fingerprint debris?

Again, remember that what this graph shows, is in practice today in the form of billions of DVDs.

It shows that your average rental dvd certainly is vulnerable to playback issues due to scratches and debris. The "shine around" mechanism doesn't seem to be the panacea that you suggest it is. So approaching from a different design is certainly welcome improvement.

Hyperbole? These are BD users who are renting from Netflix and/or Blockbuster who are giving specific numbers, and these users who are posting here is but a fraction of owners. If you want to claim that they're exaggerating, then why don't you ask them if they're inflating the number of issues they're encountering?

That's the point- you have no idea if they are exaggerating or not. It's a big guess. You have no control over the authenticity of any numbers being given. All you can ascertain is that there are some people who have encountered problems. That's it.

Now if you were able to poll how many people have had trouble with dirty/scratched rental dvd discs, you may then be in for a rude awakening as to which lasering technique truly has an issue to be concerned about...

MidnightWatcher

03-15-07, 10:31 PM

This does apply to BD-ROM. They both have hard coats. What's the difference?
BD-RE is even more sensitive and requires adequate "fingerprint resistance" in order to record data properly (so that the disc can therefore read properly recorded data). This is what the diagrams are referring to. There is a reason why BD-R and BD-RE have the actual Durabis coating. But be prepared to empty out your wallet if you want to buy BD-R or BD-RE discs in large quantities.

This quote refers to BD-RE cartridges without a hard coat. BD-ROM with HC has superior fingerprint and scratch resistance. Yes, BD needs a hard coat, but all blu-ray discs have the HC now. Do I have to pay more for the hard coat? No. Do I have to worry about friends scratching my discs that I loan them? No.
It refers to Blu-ray discs in general. The quote begins with "BD is much more sensitive to scratches and fingerprints compared with DVD" and tells us that the hard coat is therefore required as a consequence of such high sensitivity -- "Thus the hard-coat technology for the bare discs has been explored, aiming mainly at scratch- and fingerprint-resistances." If the cartridge is removed, the hard coat is an absolute must. One word of advice, however. Just because your Blu-ray movie has a scratch-resistant coating does not make it immune to all scratches and damage. If you (or your friends) are careless, they will end up getting scratched, or worse. Take care of them equally as well as your DVDs.

MidnightWatcher

03-15-07, 10:56 PM

...and in the same sense, a beam that is 1/4 the size will be able to shoot between neighboring obstacles with a surgical precision not possible with the hdvd beam. So it ends up being give and take depending on the congestion of the "obstacles".

Now here's a question for you- judging from the slides that tindizzle provided, how big do you estimate the spots are from fingerprint debris?
In a real world test, PC Magazine had their Blu-ray disc spat out with the player complaining it was unreadable. I'd guess that the 'spots' could be large enough to cause stutters, pauses, or dropouts of some kind, but surface imperfects can be more than just fingerprints. Regardless, HD DVD is much more adept at handling them than Blu-ray.

It shows that your average rental dvd certainly is vulnerable to playback issues due to scratches and debris. The "shine around" mechanism doesn't seem to be the panacea that you suggest it is. So approaching from a different design is certainly welcome improvement.
Except that the BD design brings with it increased capacity at the expsnse of new problems. Personally, I don't want an irreparable disc that is more prone to read errors.

That's the point- you have no idea if they are exaggerating or not. It's a big guess. You have no control over the authenticity of any numbers being given. All you can ascertain is that there are some people who have encountered problems. That's it.
No it isn't the point. It's an argument you've invented to again downplay the seriousness of a potential problem. If you don't want to believe them, you don't have to. I'm sure you live in a free country. But don't make them out to be liars. They're discussing their OWN format of choice.

Now if you were able to poll how many people have had trouble with dirty/scratched rental dvd discs, you may then be in for a rude awakening as to which lasering technique truly has an issue to be concerned about...
As you are aware, I've never claimed that DVDs never scratch. They do if they're not taken care of, just as Blu-ray discs will eventually scratch as well if they're not taken care of (or crack). Fortunately, DVD and HD-DVD can likely be repaired if need be. That's what durability means to me.