This thread is intended for people that have a fairly strict budget to live within, and of course someone else living with them that may see a new washer to be a better investment. I expect anyone here in the 3000 and under should qualify. The Ultra High end is another world which isn't in my foreseeable future. I don't even understand why the Ultra High end need a thread. If I was in that category I would be paying someone else to get me the best and make me happy with it.

I would like to see people start talking about projectors with exceptional or at least acceptable "out of the box" picture quality. Everyone can't be an expert at calibration. Most working families don't have the time it takes to do hours and hours of research. I also don't think we as consumers should have to either. Manufactures should be held to higher standards. Old analogue tube TV's never proved to be so difficult to purchase and have an acceptable level of satisfaction "out of the box".

The general public should not have to worry about getting into service setting menu's and even further into factory setting menu's. :mad:

We (the consumer with a budget) should only have to make minor and simple adjustments in color saturation, brightness, and contrast to achieve a picture that makes us feel satisfied. :)

I can't imagine the price we are all paying as consumers for the projector returns buried into our invoice. For the life of me I can't understand Manufactures strategies. Maybe they make more money by mass producing half finsihed products and recycling their returns. Maybe if you sell a projector enough times someone will keep it.

Infocus is renowned for its out-of-the-box calibration and overall PQ. I bought the 4805 2 years ago and have used it since with virtually no tweaking or tuning. :)

Yep IN72 can be had for less than $500 for 480p PJ. For 720p, it's tough to beat Mits HD1000u for under $900. HD70 is also a good deal but needs calibration.

Infocus is renowned for its out-of-the-box calibration and overall PQ. :)

I was about to say. But, times are changin'. Sharp is now following Infocus's lead.

The BenQ W100 scored very highly on OTB quality too.

I picked up an IN72 and am almost dissapointed that it needs no tweaking. Plug it in and enjoy. Best money I have spent in years.

avolfan,

I agree with your sentiments and we've seen a lot more manufacturers care about gamma, color and lumens even in the $3000 or less projector market.

The thing I would say though is that they are pretty much a commodity product. You're astute enough to be here asking the right questions, but much like walking into a brick and mortar store like Circuit C*ty, and seeing every hue of blue there is, with brightness up, knowing full well that 80% of the people will never adjust their set when they take it home (from factory settings with sharpness cranked and brightness cranked), manufacturers probably dont' think they need to pay attention to the market like this. (Holy deep breath for a run on sentence).

This should be a great thread. Thanks for posting it.

Richard

After spending maybe 12 hours total calibrating my last 2 projectors, I've been so thrilled with the OOTB performance of my HD1000u that I've only played with the gamma (change it to sports when the room is lit up, back to cinema for everything else) and I'm VERY pleased.

Man I found the OOTB performance of the HD1000u to be terrible. Almost unwatchable. After some serious tweaking it is looking VERY nice, but it needed a lot of work. The infocus 4805 was much, much better out of box. In fact my first projector a Panasonic 701u was also better than the HD1000u OOTB.

After spending maybe 12 hours total calibrating my last 2 projectors, I've been so thrilled with the OOTB performance of my HD1000u that I've only played with the gamma (change it to sports when the room is lit up, back to cinema for everything else) and I'm VERY pleased.

Nightfly, where'd you buy your HD1000? I'm about ready to buy one myself but everyone lately has been getting bad units.

It takes 3-1/2 minutes to stick an Avia disk in and do a basic calibration.

It takes 3-1/2 minutes to stick an Avia disk in and do a basic calibration.

Great point. OOB perfection would be nice, but I wouldn't limit my choices simply because a projector needs a few minor user adjustments. :)

Simple rule that requires monitoring AVS for a while.

If the PJ has a tweak thread that constantly floats to the top and been active for a year - don't buy into it.

If the PJ has a tweak thread that has a top sticky - don't buy into it.

PJ's that do not need any tweaking beyond your basic brightness/contrast - that come with defaults preset for gamma and color temp - have tweak threads that never make it beyond the opening post and thus sink very quickly.

Look for the owners threads that have a low survival rate of posters as well - because they moved on and are hanging out in the HT builders or HDVD players or HD gamers threads.

Also look for the owners threads with the lots of upgraders leaving to buy the new PJ that promises more pixels, more brightness, more contrast simply because they could never get the last PJ tweaked to their satisfaction so an upgrade certainly is the best solution. Then look for the same posters over in the spendy forum posting to its tweak threads.... if you want to tweak they are the best source for used PJs that are all screwed up!



Get the picture ? :D

With bulb decay rate trend specially the color of red, the term calibrated out of box means you are only good to go for a couple of hundred hrs. :D

Nightfly, where'd you buy your HD1000? I'm about ready to buy one myself but everyone lately has been getting bad units.

I got mine from Projector People. My experience concurs with Nightfly, great out of the box performance.

Simple rule that requires monitoring AVS for a while.

Look for the owners threads that have a low survival rate of posters as well - because they moved on and are hanging out in the HT builders or HDVD players or HD gamers threads.



I can think of several great projectors (for their time) where that rule does not apply:

InFocus 4805, InFocus 72/74/76, Sony VW50 Pearl, JVC RS1. There are plenty more but you get the picture. ;)

I can think of several great projectors (for their time) where that rule does not apply:

InFocus 4805, InFocus 72/74/76, Sony VW50 Pearl, JVC RS1. There are plenty more but you get the picture. ;)

He did say consumer witha budget, and mentioned under 3K - so you can scratch the Pearl and RS1 off there. =)

I am certainly a picky consumer. Though I can afford some 2k for a PJ
I never was willing, considering certain drawbacks of digital projection in my
opinion. Lets not discuss about those here as they may not be drawbacks to others.

Along came Infocus IN72 and thanks to all the 720P units that got cheaper.

I could get IN72 for $599 (MSRP $799-$200 rebate)

Out of the box terrific picture. Low fan noise, no light leak from front.
It cant get any better than this for $599+free 106 screen (though I opted
not to take the screen)

Played with the settings just to see what they do.

After that I never touched them.

The only reason I touch the remote is to turn it on/off and change
aspect ratio.

I have tried X1 and SP4805. So I know that Infocus PJ's have good picture quality and video processing. Only issue was fan noise. With IN72 fan noise is not an issue. I bought it direct from Infocus. So got the latest firmware which addresses the fan noise I believe. I table mount the PJ and my house is at 66F with some 20% humidity which is very comfortable for me. So heat is not an issue for any PJ.

Cant go wrong with IN72. Save your money now. Get OPPO 981 DVD player and also a good fixed frame grey screen which will also work for the future. Also get the $89 extended bulb warranty. You can get a 720P PJ after the IN72 bulb dies.

A couple of points, no one has mentioned the Sanyo Z5. lIt ooks great OTB as the review on Audioholics and others will confirm. However I have to wonder if PJ buyers are prone to tweaking in the first place. I'm sure that "most" PJ's look fine OTB to "most" people. Us PJ owners see all those cool settings and can't help diving in weather we need to or not. Then it's even more fun to come over to AV Science and share what you have found. Even though we know that a good picture is as subjective as sound where home theater is concerned. Let's face it we are tweak geeks!

Nightfly, where'd you buy your HD1000? I'm about ready to buy one myself but everyone lately has been getting bad units.

Got in from spinitar in mid-December, like a few dozen others from AVS so I wouldn't hold your breath on getting a magically better OOTB from them in March.

I should mention that I upgraded to HD-DVD at the same time as I upgraded projectors, so having a vastly superior signal fed to my vastly superior PJ surely contributed to my present glee, but yeah, I've got 3 calibration discs (DVE, Avia and THX optimizers galore) and I haven't bothered with any of them. Kicks ass on my 1.0 gain silver/gray screen. I'm looking forward to the lamp dying down (I expect this to level out around 100 hours, mid60s now) as dark/lightning scenes (Van Helsing finale) are almost painfully bright to watch.

One should presume that most review units have been cherry picked and tweaked - manufacturers don't want reviews saying it needed tweaked - and they claim they are helping the reviewers with their job if they pre-tweak them. This is very easily proved when the bright vivid high temp modes are in fact not found to be such in the review - and the reviewer has to calibrate them back to the 10000K they should be rather than 6500K the factory tweaker made them. Another indication is when factory presets are measured to be smack dead on - that simply does not happen unless individually calibrated at the factory - not something that is done for high volume budget projectors. The more believable review for budget PJ is when it was 10% out and only required a couple clicks to fix - something only the 10% that are videophile gearheads would ever notice.

User adjustments for basic video adaption to source is expected (i.e brightness/contrast/color/tint). However this is not tweaking - this is necessary source adjustment. If marketing would just follow the signal interface standards - that adjustment would not even be required.

Color Temperature presets being D65, gamma being 2.22 (DVD films), color gamut/decoder accuracy are all things that require calibration gear beyond a DVD test pattern. Those saying theirs did not need tweaked - clearly have never measured these. This is what usually causes a tweaking thread to survive - these measures being off - and delusion caused by not tweaking with gear - but stubbing in others numbers. gregr at Widescreen Review is the only magazine reviewer that considers all these metrics - aside from myself I cannot think of any website reviewers that measures all of these. Cine4Home.de uses ColorFacts charts and does a good job with those -but ColorFacts does not have a color decoder measurement.

Both the HD1000 and Z5 have surviving tweak threads - though they are not stickies. The HD1000 has been reported to not have a good D65 - the Z5 has reported to have red push - at least these are the most common complaints that people are trying to fix in the tweak threads. Certainly red push can be caused by new lamps - the question is has that been accounted for by statistical presets accounting for lamp age? Both of these have PJ have adjustments needed to fix. I do not trust any user reviews that say you must have a bad one - as "mine looks fine". I will take reports by DIY calibrators with gear over those reports any day!

Both the Pearl and RS1 have overextended color gamuts - without correction controls. So even if they may have good D65 presets - these other issues still impact color. The Pearl has a CMS but it is not a proper color decoder/gamut - while the RS1 has neither CMS or color decoder/gamut controls. They are pandering to the common market that is used to hyped up colors - yet look around - most people are not sunburnt with lipstick on llike you get with hyped colors! These controls are not needed if they are perceptually close to the standards - Infocus does not have them - but gets high marks on color even if color is not or cannot be made perfect. The new Mitsu HC3100 also is reported to have very accurate presets not requiring tweaking. You can't find a tweak thread surviving on these - despite their being plenty of tweakers controls - they don't need it.

Simple rule that requires monitoring AVS for a while.

If the PJ has a tweak thread that constantly floats to the top and been active for a year - don't buy into it.

If the PJ has a tweak thread that has a top sticky - don't buy into it.

PJ's that do not need any tweaking beyond your basic brightness/contrast - that come with defaults preset for gamma and color temp - have tweak threads that never make it beyond the opening post and thus sink very quickly.

Look for the owners threads that have a low survival rate of posters as well - because they moved on and are hanging out in the HT builders or HDVD players or HD gamers threads.

Also look for the owners threads with the lots of upgraders leaving to buy the new PJ that promises more pixels, more brightness, more contrast simply because they could never get the last PJ tweaked to their satisfaction so an upgrade certainly is the best solution. Then look for the same posters over in the spendy forum posting to its tweak threads.... if you want to tweak they are the best source for used PJs that are all screwed up!



Get the picture ? :D

Kras, obviously you have vast experience reading and anaysing posts on AV but isn't it a stretch to say to avoid PJ's whose posts are active after a year? There are many reasons that some posts stay alive compared to others. The most obvious is that there are more of some models out there than others hence more posts. Lower budget PJ's are bound to attract people new to the technology and hence more posts. If what you say is true then some of the best units to come out in the past few years must be no good because they still have active tweak threads. Such as Panny Ae900U, Sanyo Z4 both over a year old and highly regarded yet the tweak threads are alive and well. Using a posts longevity to rate a PJ may be a tool to help form an opinion but I don't think it should be considered a good reason to rule out a certain model.

It takes 3-1/2 minutes to stick an Avia disk in and do a basic calibration.


Unfortunately AVIA is geared for CRT and not digital displays. More and more I try to discourage people in buying AVIA until the new release comes out, its best to get something like GetGray which is entirely geared for digital displays..Im guessing there are alot of bad basic calibrations going on - contrast and brightness are not the same for digital.

Kras, obviously you have vast experience reading and anaysing posts on AV but isn't it a stretch to say to avoid PJ's whose posts are active after a year? There are many reasons that some posts stay alive compared to others. The most obvious is that there are more of some models out there than others hence more posts. Lower budget PJ's are bound to attract people new to the technology and hence more posts. If what you say is true then some of the best units to come out in the past few years must be no good because they still have active tweak threads. Such as Panny Ae900U, Sanyo Z4 both over a year old and highly regarded yet the tweak threads are alive and well. Using a posts longevity to rate a PJ may be a tool to help form an opinion but I don't think it should be considered a good reason to rule out a certain model.


The point remains - if the PJ did not need calibrated beyond a basic AVIA setup - there would be no need for a "tweak" thread. These are different from owners threads where owners talk about their installs - mounts, screens, related gear etc. I am talking about the threads that are specifically about calibrating a specific PJ - usually titled "tweak" so the nontweakers can avoid them.

The OP was not about what is popular - it was about what does not require tweaking. Tweakers threads cannot survive if the box does not require tweaking. Simple logical fact.

Unfortunately AVIA is geared for CRT and not digital displays. More and more I try to discourage people in buying AVIA until the new release comes out, its best to get something like GetGray which is entirely geared for digital displays..Im guessing there are alot of bad basic calibrations going on - contrast and brightness are not the same for digital.

The intro video on AVIA is oriented to CRT - it works just fine on digital displays - especially if you read the help files associated with each pattern so that you learn the features of the pattern. Color/tint works the same way. Only brightness/contrast are different - and the patterns include the near whites and near blacks that you can use to set your digital levels (it just does not have WTW/BTB - but you don't need that - it is just helpful - but likely AVIAII will have it.). Just as the patterns includes CRT features to set contrast looking for bending/blooming - it includes these features specific to looking for digital clipping which does not happen with CRTs.

To the point and factual posts by Kras.
Regardless of initial need for calibration sooner or later all pj's including CRT need periodic maintenance/calibration during thier sevice life.

Only trust replys from members with 5000 or more posts.

NOT!

I believe we are seeing more and more companies shipping with decently calibrated PJs. Lumen output, CR, and features have also handsomely improved as prices have dropped.

I can't think of a bad PJ manufactured today. Nuff said. (Well, maybe the Hasbro...)

I read the Audioholics Z5 review, and their comments regarding OOTB performance seemed to fly in the face of Art's review and Kras's views. Interesting. And AH claims to have been given an off the shelf unit.

Kras - is it possible that Sanyo has made some changes? Just curious as to what your thoughts are since I'm considering the Z5 (and the DT-500 and the Epson 400), and I don't want to get into a whole lot of tweaking...I don't mind some, but I don't want to spend countless hours making modifications and reading tweak threads.

INFOCUS Wins.

cheers

The projector is $499. The lamp is $30!!!
(lamps of other brands cost $200-$300, right?)

http://www.westbaycorp.com


:eek: 4:3 VGA resolution ...

(b) The warranty period for the LCD panels is 1 years from the date of purchase of the projector. LCD panels with less than 8 dead pixels is not considered defective.



edit - my 2 pennies on the calibration comment. Every display I own has been calibrated with nothing more than the THX Optimizer in my kids Nemo movie.

Could it be better? Sure ... but, nobody notices and nobody cares. And, it only takes 2 minutes - and is free. ;)

I read the Audioholics Z5 review, and their comments regarding OOTB performance seemed to fly in the face of Art's review and Kras's views. Interesting. And AH claims to have been given an off the shelf unit.

Kras - is it possible that Sanyo has made some changes? Just curious as to what your thoughts are since I'm considering the Z5 (and the DT-500 and the Epson 400), and I don't want to get into a whole lot of tweaking...I don't mind some, but I don't want to spend countless hours making modifications and reading tweak threads.

As I have said previously not all reviewers look at - or even know about - all aspects of calibration - grayscale, gamma, color decoding and color gamut - as well as psychovisual perceptual measures. The only one that does that gets my respect is Greg Rogers (gregr) at WideScreenReview - but he does not do the budget PJ. You are deluded if you think reviewers are buying random PJs from random vendors in a blind manner to ensure no possiblity of factory tweaks that the average buyer is not getting - no reviewer has that kind of budget. Manufacturers know the marketplace is buying blind - and marketers will do what they need to do to ensure their boxes are seen in the best light across fora. This includes holding reviewers hostage from getting the hot box of the month if they are giving reviews that shine the light where they don't want it shined!

Contrary to CMRA claims - I am seeing the result of a primarily online marketplace resulting in increasingly inflated brightness/contrast specs that have no bearing in calibrated reality. They increasingly use the same tricks that TV manufacturers use - blown gammas, bluish greyscale, redpush decoding, candy color gamuts. Manufacturers know they can pretweak the review unit - that most people will not hire an ISF to confirm the claims - and will not have any notion of a reference picture to compare to - and will simply be blown away with a 10' widescreen. But this thread was about best calibrated presets - not the brightest biggest picture that looks fine to Joe Schmoe.

Unlucky for the manufacturers the rise in affordable DIY calibration gear means that the truth eventually comes out in the tweak threads. How does one explain long tweak threads with numbers of the week from PJs that supposedly have "reviews" claiming it was perfect calibration out of the box? Even with DIY calibrators the tweak threads cannot die - because every calibrator gets different numbers which leads to the non-calibrators going help me tweak as the posted numbers don't work for me!

Even the Z4 had a very excellent grayscale selection - you can be sure to find one to match the screen and be plenty happy. Its issue was one of horrible color decoding presets - and I have not seen anything in the Z5 threads that convinces me the Z5 has changed in that regard - posters without any calibration experience saying I dunno it looked fine with me are not credible calibration reviewers. I had a Z5 lined up to do after burn-in - maybe they are reading this and will get it sent in - and I would be the first to say if it has changed! But I don't need hands on to know that marketed contrast/brightness numbers have nothing to do with the calibrated numbers. One need only to read the threads to see those with 133" screens which should have worked with their 1000 lumen spec - but they complain it got way to dim after the lamp burned in and they used the movie rather than vivid preset.

My calibration reviews are from paying calibration customers - a sure guarantee that no manufacturer can tweak it. If my review said don't waste your money on a calibrator - it is because the manufacturer did my job - I don't hesitate to say that. Unless of course you are a videophile worried your burnt-in lamp drifted 10% - calibrators like videophiles willing to pay for piece of mind!

Moonshine - keep drinking your namesake. Buy that BoxTV PJ and I will calibrate and review it for free. Only because it likely has the worst possible calibration and measured specs with no controls to correct it - and it would be fun to write a review that spills blood all over the floor....same deal for anyone that sends me a Hasbro ZoomBox....for a calibration shootout!

As I have said previously not all reviewers look at - or even know about - all aspects of calibration - grayscale, gamma, color decoding and color gamut - as well as psychovisual perceptual measures. The only one that does that gets my respect is Greg Rogers (gregr) at WideScreenReview - but he does not do the budget PJ. You are deluded if you think reviewers are buying random PJs from random vendors in a blind manner to ensure no possiblity of factory tweaks that the average buyer is not getting - no reviewer has that kind of budget. Manufacturers know the marketplace is buying blind - and marketers will do what they need to do to ensure their boxes are seen in the best light across fora.


Which is exactly why I asked the question...I was very hard pressed to beleive that AH got a regular unit, or that Sanyo had done some magic with newer units...

Often the magic hidden firmware upgrade is used to explain away review "differences" - but it always seems to be a magic hidden firmware upgrade - that is made of unobtainium - and the only people that seem to have gotten it is the "reviewer" and Joe Schmoe and MR. Buy M. Now who says I dunno about that oddball review - mine must be upgraded firmware because it looks fine to me....

BTW Moonshine I doubt you will be around to see that calibration shootout - someone with five posts solely so they can post a link to something for sale - gets quickly booted by the man with the gun.

The general public should not have to worry about getting into service setting menu's and even further into factory setting menu's. :mad:

We (the consumer with a budget) should only have to make minor and simple adjustments in color saturation, brightness, and contrast to achieve a picture that makes us feel satisfied. :)

.

I can't speak for every PJ out there but my last two Sharps qualify under this definition. Mits 1000 owners declare much the same. Infocus has a long list of happy campers.
I agree, specs are often blown to fictitious levels. I also perceive genuine advancements in OOTB performance, at least for the aforementioned.

What I don't understand is what benefit does a PJ manufacturer gain by cranking up settings? These units are not on showroom floors next to 30 other models where they want to seperate themselves from thier competitors. Surely they must also know that PJ owners are going to be more critical about PQ than the average Joe buying a new 27" for him the wife and the 2.3 kids.

Contrast and Brightness falls into the more specs per dollar on the click to buy listing - - blue greyscale, blown out gamma is easiest way to accomplish that. It is rare that they lie about the max spec - you can usually achieve it - somehow.

Cranked up color makes it look more colorful at the trade shows - with accolades from reviewers saying I could not believe how colorful it looked - hoping that will get them first in line for review units. Not to mention all the more colorful screenshots that show up in threads - with shills saying wow aren't these great juicy colors.

So even though they don't have the array of TVs to compete with the need to look "different" and thus "better" - for some reason they still do it. Side by side comparisons of FP is actually very difficult to setup - and no retail store is going to do it. So they know that nobody will ever actually have a reference to compare unless they have the trained visual memory of a calibrator.

Plus they probably buy all their video circuits from the TV dept engineers anyways to save money....and they don't want to fix what they already screwed up.

Sometimes review critiques make it past marketing efforts - look at the Mitsu HC3000 which was horribly off - even the staid Sound&Vision noted it - even though it was the best once calibrated. They actual did update the firmware in later models - but as noted in the HD1000 threads they targeted a green 6500K rather than the correct D65. This is most noticable to those who are upgrading from a brand that got it right. The new Mitsu HC3100 is supposed to be even better presets if you believe the reviews - but since D65 compliance makes for better sales in EU - that is where it is sold.

Contrary to CMRA claims - I am seeing the result of a primarily online marketplace resulting in increasingly inflated brightness/contrast specs that have no bearing in calibrated reality.



This is certainly worth repeating, stressing and not allowing to get lost in the long post. Very well said.

Folks, don't buy your projector based off brightness or contrast specs on a manufacturer's PDF spec sheet. You will be doing yourself a grave disservice.

:D

I have a feeling Moonshine's life expectancy around here is counting down fast ...


10 ... 9 ... 8 ... 7 ...

The man with the gun has no patience for even counting to ten - one shot - one kill....

I draw faster... sometimes ;)

I draw faster... sometimes ;)LOL!

Thanks, MP.

The best out of the box projector is the one you just opened.

The worst out of the box projector is the one other AVSers got before you and found all of it's flaws while yours is still waiting since you are on the bottom of the preorder list :D

Great point. OOB perfection would be nice, but I wouldn't limit my choices simply because a projector needs a few minor user adjustments. :)

You also need to calibrate for wall and screen properties.

Wolfie

I really liked my Panasonic PT-AE700 until I started getting blue discoloration after 8 months of use... I'd assume the newer PT-AE900 would be a great projector, its brighter, and getting cheap.

OOB performance on InFocus PJ is 1st rate. I used to own an IN76.

I did own a HD1000 for 6 weeks. It was bright but very inaccurate. Let it go and picked up a W9000 which had a fan defect. Waiting on the replacement but it had some modes that matched the IN76 in performance but at 1080 resolution with power controls for zoom, offset, focus and iris settings which I found I like most of all.

HD1000 is for cartoons and gaming OOB in my opinion. Animated movies were good but films with people and dark content were painful. Even wife said "this has to go" .... if that wasn't a green light to 1080p I don't know what is. Thank you HD1000 .... I only bought it to hold me over until the 1080p DLPs were in my price range.

k

You get what you pay for. IN76 and 1080p are much more than the HD1000u. It's an unfair comparison.

I really liked my Panasonic PT-AE700 until I started getting blue discoloration after 8 months of use... I'd assume the newer PT-AE900 would be a great projector, its brighter, and getting cheap.

You would be right! :D My 900 looked great "out of the box". I still couldn't resist doing a little Avia calibration, though my settings didn't change much. This PJ throws a great pic, is very flexible in placement, and IS getting cheap, around a $1000 to $1,100 new if you can find them, $800 to $900 slightly used.