To All RS1 OWNERS - Poll [Text View]

Wet1

03-14-07, 07:35 AM

I'm voting "Below Expectation".

There is a LOT to like about this PJ, but a few things have me feeling overall it's below my expectations given the hype and rave reviews. I have some uncorrectable MC on my unit (worse on red, slight in horizontal plain, enough I find it annoying in the vertical). While this MC isn't an issue watching normal material, it shows when print or menu commands are on the screen. It's not BAD, but slightly annoying. What REALLY has me disappointed overall are the oversaturated colors with no correct or inexpensive way of fixing the problem. Yellow cabs can look neon yellow, plants and grass can glow green, lips and flesh are often overly red and warm. While the superb CR is great, it's hard for me to get past the oversaturated colors as they often look unnatural IMO. Obviously the overscan issue is unacceptable. I would have thought simply adding CIH would have been fairly easy given the chip in this PJ, this would have been huge plus IMO.

Please don't think I'm completely taking a crap on this PJ, it's just FAR from flawless IMO. This PJ requires spending a lot of additional money on extra equipment to fix things that could/should have been done correctly at the factory.

Just my 2 cents.

tocan

03-14-07, 08:06 AM

my vote is above exp. i certainly dont see any over saturations or bright corners. the fan is very quite i dont even hear it.

dazzerxxx

03-14-07, 08:50 AM

dfrey

03-14-07, 09:12 AM

Wet1

Are you planning to keep the unit ?

Dazzer

I'd be curious about that as well. I do think the colors are oversaturated, but I also don't think it's "often" that it's noticeable. If it was, and it ultimately is determined there is no way to correct, I'd sell the machine.

David

dazzerxxx

03-14-07, 09:23 AM

I'd be curious about that as well. I do think the colors are oversaturated, but I also don't think it's "often" that it's noticeable. If it was, and it ultimately is determined there is no way to correct, I'd sell the machine.

David

David

If I purchased something and was as disappointed as Wet1 appears to be with his RS1 I would eilther 1) return it as unfit or 2) sell it whilst demand is high.

Dazzer

Wet1

03-14-07, 09:51 AM

Wet1

Are you planning to keep the unit ?

Dazzer
I'm sure this will disappoint you, but I still haven't decided yet. I know my concerns aren't overly welcomed by the fanboy group, but even my wife has noticed the oversaturation on her own... If she notices it, there's an issue! :D

There's a lot to like about this PJ, but I'm having a hard time accepting the unnatural oversaturated colors and the idea of spending almost what I paid for this PJ in other equipment to fix the problems. :o

I'd also feel a lot better if JVC wasn't so quiet all of the sudden. I haven't heard one word from them since issues started to come to light. The closest thing I've heard to JVC doing anything was Greg's comment that they are looking into the RGB signal issue. It would be nice to know what they plan on addressing (if anything), when, and how fixes will likely be implemented. If there will be minimal or no support this really bothers me, I'd certainly view this and future JVC purchases as a bad decision... hopefully this isn't the case.

I'd also like to know what their plans are regarding future models (evolutions) based off this current technology. I do realize they would likely announce this at one of the major shows, not here. BUT, if they are going to be releasing a RS2 that addresses many of our concerns in a timely manor, I'd dump this PJ is a second.... but my guess is we won't be seeing this until late fall at the earliest.

Tryg

03-14-07, 10:10 AM

There's a lot to like about this PJ, but I'm having a hard time accepting the unnatural oversaturated colors and the idea of spending almost what I paid for this PJ in other equipment to fix the problems. :o
.

This poll should have read "have you ever seen a better image?" I'm not sure I have especially since I've compared it to almost everything out there over the last few months. I encourage a lot more shootouts in your local areas.

I actually enjoy the oversaturation and I also think it's brilliant if purposefully done by JVC. It's brilliant for 2 reasons.

1. It looks fantastic right off the bat to the average consumer. Then grows on you. Just like a move to higher gain screen after I get used to these bright punch colors I likely will not be able to go back. Perfectionists be damned!

2. With a little light on in the room those oversaturated colors come down to more accurate color temperature. Most mortals have some light on in their rooms. Maybe not us vampires but definately the average consumer. The warmer colors add more definition and a better image with some ambient light. This will please 9 out of 10 normal people. Wont please perfectionists.

Wet1

03-14-07, 11:04 AM

This poll should have read "have you ever seen a better image?" I'm not sure I have especially since I've compared it to almost everything out there over the last few months. I encourage a lot more shootouts in your local areas.

I actually enjoy the oversaturation and I also think it's brilliant if purposefully done by JVC. It's brilliant for 2 reasons.

1. It looks fantastic right off the bat to the average consumer. Then grows on you. Just like a move to higher gain screen after I get used to these bright punch colors I likely will not be able to go back. Perfectionists be damned!

2. With a little light on in the room those oversaturated colors come down to more accurate color temperature. Most mortals have some light on in their rooms. Maybe not us vampires but definately the average consumer. The warmer colors add more definition and a better image with some ambient light. This will please 9 out of 10 normal people. Wont please perfectionists.

Tryg,
Part of what makes the oversaturation so obvious is I have a cheapo HD1000U in the same room I temporally set the RS1 up in. It's sad that this $850 PJ is even being mentioned in the same sentence, but when my father came over to check to see the two PJ's, he agreed the RS1 was noticeably oversaturated. I mention this because he's a very talented artist and photographer. His comments mirrored mine in that the HD1000U image was more natural looking and if not for the slight yellow/green push, the HD1000U colors look more true to life! He brought with him three sets of calibration pictures and images (pics and the digital images I loaded into the PS3) each containing a variety of colorful items which look very natural to the human eye. They contain stuff like faces, fruits, greenery etc.... stuff which looked very true to life. They were pretty neat, but I don't have any info on them. Anyway, the RS1 didn't look very natural due to the oversaturation. The HD1000U looked pretty good, but had the yellow/green push. If the oversaturation could be addressed on the JVC, there'd be no comparing the two PJs (like there shouldn't be).

Regarding your points:
1) While you and J6P might prefer neon taxis, glowing grass, and everybody looking like they are sunburned... I don't. I much prefer to see the image how they it's intended to be seen. I'd think the consumer should at least have the option of toning things down a hair if desired, and I don't see this option on the RS1. :(

2) Unlike yourself, I don't want lights on in the room, nor do I want to be forced into turning lights on in order to bring colors back in line... that kind of defeats the purpose of having 15,000:1 CR. ;)

dazzerxxx

03-14-07, 11:27 AM

I'm sure this will disappoint you, but I still haven't decided yet. I know my concerns aren't overly welcomed by the fanboy group, but even my wife has noticed the oversaturation on her own... If she notices it, there's an issue! :D

Why would your comments upset the fanboy group ? You and your wife see what you see. :) Not sure i follow your logic on keeping the unit but then that's probably just me.

I guess the lesson is don't buy blind or be taken by the hype real or imagined.

Dazzer

MikeSRC

03-14-07, 11:29 AM

12 votes in, where are the rest of 88 (?). Come on . . . :eek:

Well, oddly enough, they're probably not all members of AVS. :D

However, since I see a number of HD1 owners on the poll, the numbers may increase fairly quickly.

Bulldogger

03-14-07, 11:33 AM

I can't complain about the performance for the price. It's the best image I have seen even with the colors. I think when I solve the color issue with most likely a scaler then I'll be completely happy.

mrlittlejeans

03-14-07, 11:36 AM

Holy Jesus!

Wet1 - We all know you are very dissatisfied with the slight oversaturation of colors on the RS-1. Please spare us the constant posts bemoaning this point. The oversaturation is not as bad as you make it out. The colors are simply a bit rich sometimes. How do you know the colors on your HD1000 aren't undersaturated? Have your measured this? Is it possible the HD1000 gets more washed out compared to the RS-1 in your bedroom?

MikeSRC

03-14-07, 11:47 AM

John Ballentine

03-14-07, 11:49 AM

ctviggen

03-14-07, 11:49 AM

And if you can't fix the oversaturation using the projector, that's a problem. Perhaps the next version will allow us to fix this.

pteittinen

03-14-07, 12:22 PM

I voted "Below expectations" for one and one reason only: my expectations were sky-high. I'd spent months reading extolling previews and comments, and I can honestly say my expectations could not have been higher. There's no better way to lay groundwork for disappointment than being taken in by the hype. **it happens.

KenLand

03-14-07, 12:31 PM

If Wet1's unit is worse than the others as Mike says, then why not get it replaced?

Is this not an option? Once the wife gets annoyed its time for us all to pull together and help this guy out. :)

Ken

Mit07

03-14-07, 12:32 PM

And if you can't fix the oversaturation using the projector, that's a problem. Perhaps the next version will allow us to fix this.

Agreed. A big oversignt by JVC.

How bad is the oversaturation? Is Wet1 the only owner who is really dissatisfied? Could it be something about his setup?

Oversaturated colors can be pleasing to many people, however, I don't think anyone would accept glowing taxicabs and neon grass.

millerwill

03-14-07, 12:35 PM

Rob Tomlin

03-14-07, 12:39 PM

iwanrs

03-14-07, 12:40 PM

Don't forget to click that vote button, after you have posted your opinion/statement about your RS1.

This poll is also for owners of HD1.

pteittinen

03-14-07, 12:42 PM

Haang on, didn't Ekkehart @ Cine4Home conclude that HD1 and Ruby have very similar color reproduction, i.e. both would therefore appear evenly oversaturated?

millerwill

03-14-07, 12:46 PM

If, in fact, everyone who had an RS1 were seeing "glowing taxicabs and neon grass" you would be seeing a huge outcry from all of them, and people would be demanding their money back. That isn't happening. Even Wet1, who sees "glowing taxicabs and neon grass" isn't sure if he is going to return his projector. What does that tell you?

Agreed. I certainly don't see this as Wet1 describes it (HDMI from Comcast 3416 and Pio 59avi dvd player).

bobbi15

03-14-07, 12:47 PM

acegamer

03-14-07, 12:51 PM

Agreed. A big oversignt by JVC.

How bad is the oversaturation? Is Wet1 the only owner who is really dissatisfied? Could it be something about his setup?

Oversaturated colors can be pleasing to many people, however, I don't think anyone would accept glowing taxicabs and neon grass.

I love the colors that I'm seeing from my RS1. I have not seen anything glowing or neon grass on the material that I've watched so far. I personally wouldn't be concerned about oversaturation until I had seen the unit for myself if I were you. You may be perfectly happy with the image or you may be disappointed, in which case you can simply return the unit. At least that way you have made the decision based on personal experience and not from the impressions of others. I think that the JVC has gained enough great reviews to warrant at least a personal viewing before anyone would choose to bypass it without giving it a chance.

millerwill

03-14-07, 12:56 PM

For some of us, can you please explain:

1. What is MC? Misconvergence...but what is it exactly, how do we see it, etc.
2. Why can't the oversaturation be turned down by using the very basic picture/color adjustments that come with a projector like a TV set.
3. To take advantage of a projector like this with Blue Ray or HD DVD 1080p, dont most people have to connect the HDMI cable directly to the projector and then don't you lose the sonic advantage because you need to use a coaxial or optical cable to then carry the sound to the receiver/processor.

Re 3., yes you do connect things this way, but you don't loose any 'sonic advantage'. The coax or optical audio cable from the source (e.g. dvd player) carries all the 5.1 Dolby, etc., to your AV receiver.

acegamer

03-14-07, 12:57 PM

For some of us, can you please explain:

....
3. To take advantage of a projector like this with Blue Ray or HD DVD 1080p, dont most people have to connect the HDMI cable directly to the projector and then don't you lose the sonic advantage because you need to use a coaxial or optical cable to then carry the sound to the receiver/processor.

You don't loose any sonic advantage when using a coxial or optical cable to the receiver. And if someone with more knowledge comes in and says that you in fact do while siting numbers and graphs, then I can assure that your ears will not be able to detect what those numbers and graph might say.

Rob Tomlin

03-14-07, 01:06 PM

Well, actually, you do lose a sonic advantage by using the digital coaxial or optical cable if you are attempting to get lossless pcm or DolbyTrueHD etc from Blu-ray or HD-DVD. However, if your BD or HD-DVD player has analog outs, you can use those.

You could also use a receiver that has hdmi switching ability.

iwanrs

03-14-07, 01:12 PM

I agree with Tryg and some of the other posters above that the poll question is poorly worded, i.e., because it depends on your 'expectation', which is actually irrelevant. A better wording would be 'extremely satisfied', 'satisfied', 'not satisfied'.

What we try to bring up is the first impression of people who with high hope and expectation get the adrenalin rush when they first switch on the power button out of the box, without any tweaking and adjustments.

This first "expectation" pooling is so interesting to capture, kind of "first encounter feeling", the intense and curiosity of people when they finally get their long awaited and "uber expected" wonder projector.

In forum most recent history, I think there is no such "highly rated" and "highly expected" projector with so long cue of pre-orders and so many "promise & delay" of delivery, like this JVC RS1/HD1.

Satisfactory rating will come a while later when all the RS1 have sit or hang nicely at all HT, no more tweaking, or nothing left to tweak anymore. Then people can sit down and say if they are satisfied with their pride pj.

And by the way for $5,000, EXPECTATION is pretty much come in the bundle. :)

Tryg

03-14-07, 01:38 PM

And if you can't fix the oversaturation using the projector, that's a problem. Perhaps the next version will allow us to fix this.

If you feel oversaturation is not satisfactory to your eyes you can adjust the colors in the menu!

I repeat
ADJUST THE COLORS IN THE MENU!

Is this an oversight by JVC? no
Is this a problem? only if you dont take the time to make it look the way you want it to. This is not a problem with the projector

Wet1

03-14-07, 01:42 PM

In fairness to Wet1, I'd have to say that from his screen shots on the owners thread, the level of oversaturation is higher than normal for the RS1s that I've seen. The greens he's seeing are definitely normal for an RS1, but the skin tones are not. I've seen four different units now and all of them had good skin tones (no sunburned faces). Now there are a number of potential reasons for this, but it is possible that his RS1 is exhibiting a higher level of oversaturation than most.
Perhaps you're correct, I don't have another unit to compare it to. Based on Bulldog's and others comments, I think this might be a more broad problem than with just my PJ... but I don't know. The photos I posted are pretty accurate to what I'm seeing. Reds are certainly oversaturated, the photo which has the add for POTC is not exaggerating the colors at all... the case looks that oversaturated through the RS1. Same can be said for flesh tones. Obviously items such as taxis and grass don't have a glowing halo around them, but they do appear unnatural through my PJ, to a similar degree to what the pictures I posted earlier are showing.

To answer John's question, I'm running HDMI. I've tried HD-DVD and BR with the same results. RS1 settings are 100% OOTB other than very minor contrast and brightness tweaks.

I've also found those calibration photos my father gave me. I've included thumbnails of three of them. Obviously I can't post the physical pictures that go with them for comparison, but you can at least see the digital images attached. The first one is actually for printer calibration. If you have some way of uploading them to 1080P (such as with a PS3), I can email the full sized files to you if you're interested in a copy.

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/SS930/th_cal_tss_printer_test_.jpg (http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/SS930/cal_tss_printer_test_.jpg)

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/SS930/th_Cal_Test_Image.jpg (http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/SS930/Cal_Test_Image.jpg)

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/SS930/th_cal_4800test.jpg (http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/SS930/cal_4800test.jpg)

Tryg

03-14-07, 01:51 PM

For some of us, can you please explain:

1. What is MC? Misconvergence...but what is it exactly, how do we see it, etc.
2. Why can't the oversaturation be turned down by using the very basic picture/color adjustments that come with a projector like a TV set.
3. To take advantage of a projector like this with Blue Ray or HD DVD 1080p, dont most people have to connect the HDMI cable directly to the projector and then don't you lose the sonic advantage because you need to use a coaxial or optical cable to then carry the sound to the receiver/processor.

The third question was answered so here's 1 and 2

1. Its when all three panels offering the primary colors are not perfectly aligned. Get a 1080p test pattern and put it on, then go up to the screen. Can you see it with a video? Extremely unlikely, especially at proper viewing distances.

2. Oversaturation can be turned down by adjusting the colors in the menu

Wet1

03-14-07, 02:18 PM

The third question was answered so here's 1 and 2

1. Its when all three panels offering the primary colors are perfectly aligned. Get a 1080p test pattern and put it on, then go up to the screen. Can you see it with a video? Extremely unlikely, especially at proper viewing distances.

2. Oversaturation can be turned down by adjusting the colors in the menu
Here's slightly more accurate answers to your questions #1 & 2.

1) MC is when all three panels offering the primary colors are not perfectly aligned. Ideally all three panels are perfectly aligned (such as the image you see with a single chip DLP PJ), when this is not the case you see MC. Lets say red is off to the right one pixel. When you look at the image with this MC, the image will have green and blue in the proper place (which won't look correct since it's missing the red color portion), and the red portion will be off to the right one pixel leaving what looks like a red outline on that portion of the image. I hope this makes sense... MC can vary. When present, it's often worse form one part of the screen to another (often on the sides or top/bottom).

2) The oversaturation cannot be turned down on the RS1 w/o effecting the color accuracy. Several people (including Greg R) have stated there is no proper way of fixing this problem within the RS1 menu or service menu.

Tryg

03-14-07, 02:21 PM

[QUOTE=Wet1]

1). Sorry I left out "not" I type too fast ;)

2). I look forward to Greg's report because I already have done this.

The menu offers and incredible amount of adjustments. Now all I need is my own unit to really play with!

Wet1

03-14-07, 02:27 PM

2). I look forward to Greg's report because I already have done this.

The menu offers and incredible amount of adjustments.
I too have lowered the color setting to address the issue, but while reducing the oversaturation it introduces problems with color accuracy. I think Greg and others have addressed this already. ;)

Rob Tomlin

03-14-07, 02:31 PM

I too have lowered the color setting to address the issue, but while reducing the oversaturation it introduces problems with color accuracy. I think Greg and others have addressed this already. ;)

The issue, as I understand it, is that while it WILL reduce the over-saturation, it does so globally. As such, if green is more over-saturated than red and blue, if you get green where it should be, the red and blue might be under-saturated.

Someone correct me if I am wrong.

sfogg

03-14-07, 02:33 PM

I so wish I could take part in this poll.......

Shawn

(twiddling thumbs.... counting sheep......)

Tryg

03-14-07, 02:37 PM

The issue, as I understand it, is that while it WILL reduce the over-saturation, it does so globally. As such, if green is more over-saturated than red and blue, if you get green where it should be, the red and blue might be under-saturated.

Someone correct me if I am wrong.

you can make adjustments to each of the primaries individually along with other adjustments

Rob Tomlin

03-14-07, 02:44 PM

you can make adjustments to each of the primaries individually along with other adjustments

It has been reported by others that that adjustment only affects the lightness/luminosity of the colors, not the saturation.

Perhaps Ric (lovingdvd) can chime in here!?

And Tryg, believe me, I would LOVE to be wrong here! :)

mrlittlejeans

03-14-07, 02:45 PM

you can make adjustments to each of the primaries individually along with other adjustments

how?

Tryg

03-14-07, 02:52 PM

Menu, Image, Offset
Adjusts the respective brightness of the red, green and blue colors

Menu, Image, Image Adjust
Allows you to adjust Contrast, Brightness, Color (color density), Tint, Sharpness and the infamous Gennum Digitial Noise Reduction

John Ballentine

03-14-07, 03:08 PM

It has been reported by others that that adjustment only affects the lightness/luminosity of the colors, not the saturation.

Perhaps Ric (lovingdvd) can chime in here!?

And Tryg, believe me, I would LOVE to be wrong here! :)

Nope. Neither color nor offset lowers the saturation. I had to lower the saturation at the source (DVD / Blu-ray) player - which actually didn't work all that well as it lowerd the saturation of ALL the colors when only red and green needed to be reduced. Luckily (for me at least) switching to HDMI helped out a bit (for some weird reason).

bigjohn7

03-14-07, 03:16 PM

Last night my wife and I watched "Fantastic 4" (blu-ray, PS3 hdmi and RS-1). It was truly "fantastic". The overall experience was exceptional; no visible bright corners, no problem with projector fan noise, wonderfully clear, vibrant picture, easy to look "through" the equipment and enjoy the movie. We watched on a 133" diag. Da-lite (cinemavision?) screen, at normal lamp level. Our room is not a "bat cave", but it is a cave, with angled ceilings, 15 ft. high at the peak. Walls are a mixture of light tan, gray and open; floors are dark brown carpet. The projector is on a low table 14 feet from the screen and our primary seating is about 18 feet back.

My previous projectors include an infocus DLP (what a pos- I've even forgotten the model #) and a Sanyo PLV-Z2 (pretty good, but certainly no match for the 10' wide screen). I also have a JVC 71" rptv, also dila and also 1080p. The JVC rptv image quality is what led me to consider the RS-1; the rptv is great to watch and oh-so bright!

The only (minor) complaint I have with the RS-1 is the lack of a decent way to control the color over-saturation. My experience in photography, including making color prints the "old fashioned way" (with an enlarger, color analyzer & chemicals) probably colors my impression, but it would be helpful if the projector allowed for saturation control. This appears to me to be a big oversight on JVC's part, but imho has (most of the time) a small impact on the viewing experience. I guess I'm becoming a fan-boy, but overall, this projector makes me very happy. :D

Mark Petersen

03-14-07, 03:19 PM

It has been reported by others that that adjustment only affects the lightness/luminosity of the colors, not the saturation.

Yes this is correct and very wll known. There is no way to correct for the wider than rec. 709 color gamut for the JVC with the internal adjustments. All that the internal color control does is to change the lightness of the color so that colors are less vivid. The bias controls are used to adjust the relative balance of R,G and B to achieve the desired white point (D65 for example). Imho, though the oversaturation issue is being blown out of proportion. The degree of oversaturation on the JVC isn't that much compared to most other display devices being sold today that also don't have CMS, it's certainly no worse than the Ruby or Pearl for example. I think part of the problem may be that the default color setting for analog inputs is too high on the JVC and people haven't adjusted them down and they are confusing this easily correctable problem with oversaturated primaries. These are two different issues.

dfrey

03-14-07, 03:20 PM

Perhaps you're correct, I don't have another unit to compare it to. Based on Bulldog's and others comments, I think this might be a more broad problem than with just my PJ... but I don't know. [/URL]

I think the RS's colors are oversaturated, but I don't think neon taxis, glowing grass and red faces has shown to be a broad problem. If you're seeing that consistently or "often" like you said, then I don't even know why you haven't decided to sell the PJ or try an exchange.

I haven't seen the fan boy traits with respect to this PJ to be anything like Bob S. experienced with the Panny. But your statements on this color issue keep getting more dramatic and full of hyperbole daily.

David

javdog

03-14-07, 03:25 PM

If I purchased something and was as disappointed as Wet1 appears to be....

Dazzer

No Placebo effect happening for some, is what it looks like. While some here are still in enjoying the "honeymoon", Wet1 hasn't even had a taste. So, he comes on here posting his observations, which get dismissed, then calls over a relative with Photo experience who confims, and ends up voting his honest feeling. Then what happens?

A group of posts that have the intent to either discredit his experience, or talk him into the fact that the colors being oversaturated is actually a good thing!? Wasn't this predicted in that thread about how the phases of ownership will happen?

I don't have a dog in this fight but Wet1, don't get baited into entering into infantile masturbation. I can imagine the left side of your brain arguing over too much color and the right side saying, "but the guys on the forums say it's not THAT bad".

Like iwanrs says, post your VOTE, not your defense, That goes in the owners thread.

Rob Tomlin

03-14-07, 03:27 PM

Yes this is correct and very wll known. There is no way to correct for the wider than rec. 709 color gamut for the JVC with the internal adjustments. All that the internal color control does is to change the lightness of the color so that colors are less vivid. The bias controls are used to adjust the relative balance of R,G and B to achieve the desired white point (D65 for example). Imho, though the oversaturation issue is being blown out of proportion. The degree of oversaturation on the JVC isn't that much compared to most other display devices being sold today that also don't have CMS, it's certainly no worse than the Ruby or Pearl for example. I think part of the problem may be that the default color setting for analog inputs is too high on the JVC and people haven't adjusted them down and they are confusing this easily correctable problem with oversaturated primaries. These are two different issues.

Mark, this may be the most succinct post I have seen on the over-saturation issue. Probably worthy of posting in the first post in the owners thread. :)

Wet1

03-14-07, 04:19 PM

No Placebo effect happening for some, is what it looks like. While some here are still in enjoying the "honeymoon", Wet1 hasn't even had a taste. So, he comes on here posting his observations, which get dismissed, then calls over a relative with Photo experience who confims, and ends up voting his honest feeling. Then what happens?

A group of posts that have the intent to either discredit his experience, or talk him into the fact that the colors being oversaturated is actually a good thing!? Wasn't this predicted in that thread about how the phases of ownership will happen?

I don't have a dog in this fight but Wet1, don't get baited into entering into infantile masturbation. I can imagine the left side of your brain arguing over too much color and the right side saying, "but the guys on the forums say it's not THAT bad".

Like iwanrs says, post your VOTE, not your defense, That goes in the owners thread.
Thank you. Truer words have never been spoken! :D

BTW, so far the left side of my brain is winning this argument. ;)

dazzerxxx

03-14-07, 04:31 PM

No Placebo effect happening for some, is what it looks like. While some here are still in enjoying the "honeymoon", Wet1 hasn't even had a taste. So, he comes on here posting his observations, which get dismissed, then calls over a relative with Photo experience who confims, and ends up voting his honest feeling. Then what happens?

A group of posts that have the intent to either discredit his experience, or talk him into the fact that the colors being oversaturated is actually a good thing!? Wasn't this predicted in that thread about how the phases of ownership will happen?

I don't have a dog in this fight but Wet1, don't get baited into entering into infantile masturbation. I can imagine the left side of your brain arguing over too much color and the right side saying, "but the guys on the forums say it's not THAT bad".

Like iwanrs says, post your VOTE, not your defense, That goes in the owners thread.

javdog

I have no issue with Wet1's view of the HD1 or any desire to change his opinion. :)

Dazzer

Mark Petersen

03-14-07, 04:38 PM

Mark, this may be the most succinct post I have seen on the over-saturation issue. Probably worthy of posting in the first post in the owners thread. :)

Thanks Rob :)

rlindo

03-14-07, 04:51 PM

My vote would be between above and "just nice" as I had high expectations but I'd say of the two choices it is closer to the "above my expectations"

Only based on the hype would I say it was below expectations concerning full field black (people made it out to be the screen would be close to pitch black which it isn't) but the clarity of the image was far better than I was expecting as well as low APL scenes...I didn't think they'd be THAT uh "rich, clear, deep, etc" in look.

THe RS1 is simply the best image I have thus far seen in my life.

millerwill

03-14-07, 05:02 PM

I remember last year during the 'Ruby craze', for several months after they came out, that people couldn't control their bladders with all the oo'ing and ah'ing about the 'rich', 'full', etc., colors it produced. And then people realized that they were not 'accurate'--Goetterdaemmerung!

Bob Sorel

03-14-07, 05:06 PM

keithsimp

03-14-07, 06:34 PM

I voted 'above expectations' because of the difference between this projector and my old one are huge.
I'm a happy camper.

Rob Tomlin

03-14-07, 06:48 PM

there is one thing i don't know if ther is already talk about it
because there are so many treads about that pr.that i not read.

the pearl as the ruby and qualia show a big drop at high freq.
all that have a bd player and playback the second test pattern that is on each
bd from sony can see down in the middle that squares and no. from 1-10 .
10 is the
max freq. one line black one line white all 1 pixel wide.
there you can see easy the drop because the higher it gets the more gray
is it if there is a filtering.

now the hd1 is strange.
when sharpness is on 0 there is the same filtering the pearl have.
now if you go to 15 or above this filtering disappears!!!

so the sharpness control is more or less some kind of filter
and not the normaly sharpness that create problems.
very good we can decide if we like more details or not.

the bugs that can produce you cant see in the picture but you will get more
detail visible when you playback with a full hd pr. a good bd or hd dvd.

Interesting information regarding the sharpness control of the JVC. Some of the reports do seem to indicate that there is something "different" (better?) about the JVC's sharpness control.

fugueness

03-14-07, 06:48 PM

Coming from the Samsung H710 with its CMS, I was quite impressed with the color on my RS1. I put a few of my photographs through while referencing my Eizo, and the colors are pretty darn accurate. You can do A-B comparisons all day, nitpick subtle gradations of saturation, and fixate on numbers, but at the end of the day, how does it look?
My RS1 puts out the best projected image I have seen. I've held screenings just about every night since I got this, and here's a quote from a friend who works at one of the largest custom installers in Northern California (and runs the Meridian MF-1 himself) upon experiencing the RS1: "Dear God."

javdog

03-14-07, 08:09 PM

jasonDono

03-14-07, 08:56 PM

I think part of the problem may be that the default color setting for analog inputs is too high on the JVC and people haven't adjusted them down and they are confusing this easily correctable problem with oversaturated primaries. These are two different issues.

In fairness to Wet1, he is using HDMI, not analog inputs.

iwanrs

03-14-07, 09:03 PM

As far as my vote, I have no idea what to vote - I tried to keep my expectations low, but regardless they ended up being pretty high. In some ways the RS-1 performs as well as expected, but in other ways it disappoints, and in no area did it exceed my expectations. Right now I consider it a mixed bag and will refrain from voting until I can sort out all of the issues.

I should add one more vote : S A X = SLIGHTLY ABOVE EXPECTATION

fugueness

03-14-07, 09:04 PM

Take it or leave it, javdog. I already posted my impressions and screenshots in another thread.
Both Cam Man and I have found the colors very pleasing to the eye; we're both professional photographers. For example, I got to see The Matrix Reloaded from set to final print. Several of my guests over the past week are also professionals in the biz; they were all duly impressed. The point is, as Cam Man has stated more eloquently before, colors vary so much in the source material that scrutinizing them is a bit silly.
Sure, the lack of a CMS is a disappointment, so let's badger JVC to include one in the next revision.
The RS1 is not perfect, but what is? The imperfect nature of creativity begins when a cinematographer chooses a film stock.

iwanrs

03-14-07, 09:15 PM

58 votes . . . and counting.

Mark Petersen

03-14-07, 10:51 PM

^ What's all that about?

See this is where it gets shady. I can understand if you walk into a brand new DLP Theater with a curved screen and stadium seating, but c'mon.

Your friend was probably just being "nice" how all guests are when they are invited over.
At the PJ shootout, there weren't any "dear gods" uttered. I really want to believe that the RS is all it's cracked up to be, but lets try to quantify the differences. We all like to read impressions, but lets keep them fair and credible. ;)

The poster mentioned that the "dear God" comment was from someone coming from a MF-1 experience. Not to knock the MF-1 as it does have some great attributes but it is at best a 3000:1 on/off CR (and 100:1 ANSI CR) projector while the RS1 is a 15000:1 on/off CR (and a ~300:1 ANSI CR) projector. I can see why this person would make that sort of a statement. The difference in contrast, depth and crispness between these projectors is not subtle. If someone was coming from a Pearl, Ruby, Sharp 20K, 11S1, etc projector though the contrast difference wouldn't be as dramatic.

Mark Petersen

03-14-07, 10:52 PM

I should add one more vote : S A X = SLIGHTLY ABOVE EXPECTATION

How about 'S E X' and 'S U X' categories while you're at it? :D

Rob Tomlin

03-14-07, 11:19 PM

^ What's all that about?

See this is where it gets shady. I can understand if you walk into a brand new DLP Theater with a curved screen and stadium seating, but c'mon.

Your friend was probably just being "nice" how all guests are when they are invited over.
At the PJ shootout, there weren't any "dear gods" uttered. I really want to believe that the RS is all it's cracked up to be, but lets try to quantify the differences. We all like to read impressions, but lets keep them fair and credible. ;)

I have read enough of fugueness' posts to know he has credibility (with me), including his photography experience. Photography is a hobby of mine, so I know he knows what he is talking about. Including a fully calibrated "workflow". He knows about color and how it works. You have to have a fairly good understanding of these things when you work with Photoshop.

I guess I am not really sure what point you were trying to make.

Bulldogger

03-14-07, 11:25 PM

iwanrs

03-14-07, 11:31 PM

How about 'S E X' and 'S U X' categories while you're at it? :D

Mark,

YOU GOT ME ! ThankS for the in"deep" review or "In Put" should I say. :D

Bob Sorel

03-15-07, 12:05 AM

Both Cam Man and I have found the colors very pleasing to the eye; we're both professional photographers.
With all due respect, I spent 25 years of my life as a professional musician, logging a pretty fair amount of hours in recording studios...This does not make me an expert on speakers even though they were an integral part of my profession and I worked with them for many hours per day.
The point is, as Cam Man has stated more eloquently before, colors vary so much in the source material that scrutinizing them is a bit silly.
I respectfully disagree. The idea of having a calibrated standard is so that when a director picks a particular film stock, for example, that that stock will appear consistently from display to display. And if the color within a movie varies, then it will vary in a predictable and repeatable manner. If it doesn't, then what matter does it make which stock he picks? He might as well just pick anything that is handy if it is going to look different on every display device out there.

In the recording studios we very rarely recorded sound in an unmodified manner. Every sound, pretty much without exception, is subjected to various types and amounts of EQ, aural exciters, compressors, ADSR generators, etc., so one could make a similar argument to yours by saying "sounds vary so much in the source material that scrutinizing them is a bit silly", but we face the same dilemma once again - If we don't define a standard frequency response that we consider "ideal" and strive toward that level of perfection, we can never reproduce the artist's conception as he intended it.

Do you view a Van Gogh while wearing sunglasses?

I understand how you might find the people in this forum (some of us more than others...:p ) overly concerned about what you consider minor complaints, but this place is the Twilight Zone, and these people are the lunatic fringe. It's a hobby and a passion and an obsession.

Likewise when I hear a gearhead talk about how one type of fuel injection system can squeeze 1.5 extra horsepower and shave 0.01 seconds off its quarter mile, I say "Dammit, doesn't that car go fast enough already? Can't you appreciate it just the way it is?" so I can certainly relate to your point of view.

Once again I am not trying to pick on you, but rather to explain why this particular lunatic feels that color accuracy (among many other parameters) is extremely important in order to attain maximum enjoyment from my new display device.

smithfarmer

03-15-07, 12:08 AM

Originally Posted by iwanrs
I should add one more vote : S A X = SLIGHTLY ABOVE EXPECTATION

How about 'S E X' and 'S U X' categories while you're at it? :D
S A X
S E X
S U X

Final Jeopardy Answer -

Who is Bill Clinton

;)

iwanrs

03-15-07, 12:15 AM

S A X
S E X
S U X

Final Jeopardy Answer -

Who is Bill Clinton

;)

Hey Smith, that's good!

OK, enough for some relaxation. Get serious folks, give your vote !

Alimentall

03-15-07, 12:15 AM

all of the above?

Mark Petersen

03-15-07, 12:41 AM

S A X
S E X
S U X

Final Jeopardy Answer -

Who is Bill Clinton

;)

:D :D :D

I just split a gut laughing so hard :)

smithfarmer

03-15-07, 01:15 AM

I respectfully disagree. The idea of having a calibrated standard is so that when a director picks a particular film stock, for example, that that stock will appear consistently from display to display. And if the color within a movie varies, then it will vary in a predictable and repeatable manner. If it doesn't, then what matter does it make which stock he picks? He might as well just pick anything that is handy if it is going to look different on every display device out there.

Once again I am not trying to pick on you, but rather to explain why this particular lunatic feels that color accuracy (among many other parameters) is extremely important in order to attain maximum enjoyment from my new display device.
What happens when you have a film that is intended to have an oversaturated look and then this is compounded by the RS1? Does this film end up looking heavily oversaturated, slightly cartoonish?

It seems likely that there is a good deal of difference between the RS1's that have been released and just like some have better convergence, some have more saturated primaries than others.

Rob Tomlin

03-15-07, 01:16 AM

Wow, 60 votes! That's quite a few RS1's in the hands of AVS members! One question though: why am I not one of them?!?!? :eek:

iwanrs

03-15-07, 02:08 AM

Wow, 60 votes! That's quite a few RS1's in the hands of AVS members! One question though: why am I not one of them?!?!? :eek:

Yes why, Rob? I swear I saw you on red carpet at RS1 pre-launch ceremony. :p

And, only 60 votes? Where are HD1 owners? Please vote!

Bulldogger

03-15-07, 08:49 AM

Yes why, Rob? I swear I saw you on red carpet at RS1 pre-launch ceremony. :p

And, only 60 votes? Where are HD1 owners? Please vote!
Watching movies! No the RS1 is not perfect but it is still damn good and well worth the price. The RS1 is guaranteed to cut down on your internet time.

Wet1

03-15-07, 09:57 AM

I suspect that there is more going on here than just oversaturation of two of the primaries. As someone in another thread pointed out, sometimes the colors are terrific and extremely natural and accurate looking, and then the next minute I can see reddish skin tones, heavy oversaturation, and other color anomalies (for lack of a better word), all in the same source and over HDMI (I haven't even looked at the analog inputs). When I compared the same scenes from the same source gear to the colors from my Ruby (which most definitely has oversaturated primaries), the color rendition was better and more importantly...consistent. So this leads me to believe that something else is amiss here, though I won't pretend to know what it is. I think we will have to wait for Greg's report...;)

I agree with what you're saying regarding the fact that sometimes the image looks pretty good other times it looks heavily oversaturated, but I don't think something inside the PJ is changing. I suspect it's just the nature of the image being displayed. Even though much of the material I view on the RS1 looks oversaturated, some stuff looks excellent. For example, many scenes in The Prestige look very good on the RS1. I've noticed when the scenes are intentionally produced to have a cool or blue hue to them, they looked great. Other scenes from this movie look much worse, but these scenes have a warm nature which the RS1 over exaggerates making the problem very noticeable. In other material I've noticed the RS1 looks spot on, but when I review the same material on my other PJ or on my calibrated monitor, it's a little washed out... under these circumstances the picture looks perfect on the oversaturated RS1.

I'm not so sure the problem is dynamic, I suspect everything is oversaturated but the source material is masking the problem at times.

As far as my vote, I have no idea what to vote... In some ways the RS-1 performs as well as expected, but in other ways it disappoints, and in no area did it exceed my expectations.
I feel the exact same way. It did not excede my expectations in any way, in others it performs as I expected, and in some it's certainly below what I expected. For this reason I voted overall it was below what I expected. On the other hand, if JVC does something soon to fix these shortcomings, I'd certainly be very happy with this product. :)

Mark Petersen

03-15-07, 01:42 PM

Wet1,
I noticed that the gamma used with the RS1 seems to play a big role in the consistency of the RS1 with different content. I started this thread to see if others notice a difference too:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10035070#post10035070

As far as expectations go, I think the RS1 has exceeded my expectations because I never bought into the comments that others had said that blacks were completely black. In fact at the Expo I mentioned that I was easily able to cast hand puppets onto the screen with the video blanked and that I think most CRT owners would still want more on/off than what the RS1 delivers. So with using that as my expectations the production RS1 has exceeded what I saw. I can see how some might have had sky high expectations based on the hype though.

Rob Tomlin

03-15-07, 06:54 PM

Yes why, Rob? I swear I saw you on red carpet at RS1 pre-launch ceremony. :p

Nope. That was Mark Petersen!

Mark Petersen

03-15-07, 08:34 PM

Nope. That was Mark Petersen!

Yeah that pre-launch red carpet party was killer. Walking down the red carpet arm in arm with Britney Spears was well worth the price of the RS1. And yes I was able to verify after the party that she was not wearing any panties... :eek:

iwanrs

03-15-07, 08:57 PM

Yeah that pre-launch red carpet party was killer. Walking down the red carpet arm in arm with Britney Spears was well worth the price of the RS1. And yes I was able to verify after the party that she was not wearing any panties... :eek:

Was she BALD at that time? I mean her head. :p :p :p

Mark Petersen

03-15-07, 09:06 PM

Was she BALD at that time? I mean her head. :p :p :p

Yes and Yes! :D :eek:

Rob Tomlin

03-15-07, 09:54 PM

MikeSRC

03-15-07, 10:04 PM

And yes I was able to verify after the party that she was not wearing any panties... :eek:

The real shocker would have been if she WAS! :D

Mark Petersen

03-15-07, 10:39 PM

The real shocker would have been if she WAS! :D

How true!

Rob Tomlin

03-15-07, 11:58 PM

Yeah, that Britney Spears is just so hot! :eek:

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/2006/07/britneynomakeup2.jpg

smithfarmer

03-16-07, 01:09 AM

Barfolicious!

Dude, talk about hitting that wall, looks like she hit it about 15-20 years early. :p

iwanrs

03-16-07, 02:05 AM

70 and counting . . . I mean Votes not Her!

iwanrs

03-16-07, 01:34 PM

72 VOTES so far

Rob Tomlin

03-16-07, 02:04 PM

I don't know how others feel, but it really bothers me when people vote, especially if it is "Below Expectations" but they don't bother to say why.

There are several examples. One is "Bocapimp", who has another thread on the construction of his (amazing) home theater. In that thread, he indicated in January he had an Optoma HD81 coming in. No posts at all about the RS1. Yet he votes here "Below expectation" without comment.

Boca, can you provide us with some insight as to why you voted as you did, and if you own the RS1?

mrlittlejeans

03-16-07, 03:56 PM

javdog

03-16-07, 04:07 PM

Rob Tomlin

03-16-07, 04:14 PM

DomNY

03-16-07, 04:19 PM

I never drove a Benz, but they suck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :rolleyes:

Rob Tomlin

03-16-07, 04:23 PM

I never drove a Benz, but they suck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :rolleyes:

;)

mrlittlejeans

03-16-07, 04:25 PM

units

03-17-07, 09:19 AM

Rob and co.
People dont have to explain their votes. But there are plenty of posts that do give some background.

If you don't like their answers, moot. If you think they are wrong, moot. If you want to discredit or diminish or argue about their impressions, don't.
It's like your trying to protect your commission on RS1 sales.

The mob mentality should'nt of happened, but it did. The reviews are drying up, any browsers of these forums want info, not cockfights. Not alot of pearl owners posting anymore, they all "unplugged" and are enjoying their setups. When I can hear the crickets chirping and the RS1 threads are the only ones bumped with minutiae like the above post, you know the party must be almost over. Who's gonna help clean up?

First, the issue being discussed in the last several posts is the fact that a significant number of those that have voted "below expectation" DO NOT OWN THE PROJECTOR...

Seeing as how the the title of the thread is "To all RS1 OWNERS - Poll", this could seen by anyone of even average intelligence as a problem.

Regarding the goofy content of your post, I can only assume you forgot to take your meds...

The purpose of a public pole, which this is, is to allow for the most accurate representation possible of the result by means of discounting votes by those who have obviously placed votes in other than good faith, or do not meet the criteria for voting on the subject...in this case, ownership of and experience with the projector.

In any case, you stated earlier in this thread, "I don't have a dog in this fight". If this is so, I'd be interested to know what would evoke the emotional diatribe you spewed at Rob and others.... :rolleyes:

Phil_Johnson

03-17-07, 11:02 AM

Kroenen

03-17-07, 11:40 AM

dazzerxxx

03-17-07, 11:41 AM

Didn't this same poll take place when the Pearl came out and everyone that thought they knew someone that had one voted on it. I started to search some of the negitive posters to see why they didn't like the RS1 and found that many had no other posts or no RS 1 posts or no mention of seeing or having one.

Phil

Funny you mention that. I noticed at least one name on the "below expectation" vote that I don't believe is an RS1/HD1 owner. In fact we have been posting on a thread about his Pearl over the past week or so. Only mention of the RS1 was his opening post and a comment about "RS1 hype".

Just posted in the other thread to ask when he purchased the RS1/HD1. :confused:

Dazzer

javdog

03-17-07, 11:51 AM

To Fanclown, are you talking?

To Phil, I haven't looked up that poll, but thanks for bringing it up. I'll go check it. :)
I don't go spending my precious time researching other people's posts, but what I can speak to is that when I demo the RS1, I will post a vote, even if I don't buy it. I think that is fair. Especially since I am going out of my way to give it a fair shake.

Sorry if my text conveyed emotion. There was none, just observations. I can see there are territorial and confrontational kiddies here. I guess there always has to be a few in hiding in every cohort. I suppose this thread will wither until a new shipment arrives or some other person with their feelings hurt wants to tango. Till then, if the shoe fits.....

dazzerxxx

03-17-07, 12:13 PM

70 and counting . . . I mean Votes not Her!

Hi inwans

Maybe you should consider a new poll title instead of "To all RS1 owners" as that appears confusing for some. :)

Dazzer

iwanrs

03-17-07, 12:47 PM

iwanrs

03-17-07, 12:51 PM

77 VOTES so far

46 :)

19 ;)

12 :mad:

javdog

03-17-07, 01:05 PM

Like: To all RS1/HD1 Owners only, with legitimate invoice, with proper installation, have seen the picture with their own eyes, not for pre-orders, almost owners, still in the box not yet install owner, not for "may be" buyer later this year, not for other owners like Pearl, Ruby, all DLP, all LCD, all CRT and all projectors over $6,000 owners, and please help me with more "not" . . . :eek:

^ Damn, I guess this means I can't rock the vote!

Dazz, ever thought of changing your tag to "Biznaz dazz"? J/k :p

Or

46 :) "yay!"

31 :rolleyes: "meh.."

(+/- 2 % for error)

Rob Tomlin

03-17-07, 01:50 PM

First, the issue being discussed in the last several posts is the fact that a significant number of those that have voted "below expectation" DO NOT OWN THE PROJECTOR...

Seeing as how the the title of the thread is "To all RS1 OWNERS - Poll", this could seen by anyone of even average intelligence as a problem.

Regarding the goofy content of your post, I can only assume you forgot to take your meds...

The purpose of a public pole, which this is, is to allow for the most accurate representation possible of the result by means of discounting votes by those who have obviously placed votes in other than good faith, or do not meet the criteria for voting on the subject...in this case, ownership of and experience with the projector.

In any case, you stated earlier in this thread, "I don't have a dog in this fight". If this is so, I'd be interested to know what would evoke the emotional diatribe you spewed at Rob and others.... :rolleyes:

Thanks for taking the time to post in detail what I was thinking, but simply summarized with a :rolleyes:

;)

dazzerxxx

03-17-07, 01:51 PM

Like: To all RS1/HD1 Owners only, with legitimate invoice, with proper installation, have seen the picture with their own eyes, not for pre-orders, almost owners, still in the box not yet install owner, not for "may be" buyer later this year, not for other owners like Pearl, Ruby, all DLP, all LCD, all CRT and all projectors over $6,000 owners, and please help me with more "not" . . . :eek:

Better but jazdog may still be a bit confused. :) Probably all that infantile masturbation, running dogs and shoe fitting stuff he keeps quoting has him confused. :p Bad dog... down boy...

Dazzer

Rob Tomlin

03-17-07, 01:55 PM

I don't go spending my precious time researching other people's posts, but what I can speak to is that when I demo the RS1, I will post a vote, even if I don't buy it. I think that is fair. Especially since I am going out of my way to give it a fair shake.

Then you should change the title of the poll since it says OWNERS of the RS1.

Of course doing so would give the poll even less meaning than it has now, since any Bozo could vote even if they spent 10 minutes with the RS1.....if that.

iwanrs

03-17-07, 02:42 PM

EXPECTATION: The owner of RS1/HD1 are expecting performance of this projector.
Not only because they heard or read so many good thing about it, most of all because they have paid $5,000 plus. So they expect something worth for their 5 grand! Plain and simple.

Mark Petersen

03-17-07, 03:22 PM

Yeah I remember the same issues with the Pearl owner's poll.

I'm not sure why it's so difficult to be honorable enough not to vote unless you have the RS1.

Yup, I remember the same thing. There are always a few people who don't even own the projector being polled who feel the need to trash the polling process with a negative vote. I have no problem at all with Rob wanting to know who voted negatively. If they own an RS1 then there is no need for them to explain their vote, but if they don't own an RS1 their vote should be removed.

Mark Petersen

03-17-07, 03:29 PM

Like: To all RS1/HD1 Owners only, with legitimate invoice, with proper installation, have seen the picture with their own eyes, not for pre-orders, almost owners, still in the box not yet install owner, not for "may be" buyer later this year, not for other owners like Pearl, Ruby, all DLP, all LCD, all CRT and all projectors over $6,000 owners, and please help me with more "not" . . . :eek:

"Not" should also include the marketing department of competing manufacturers who purchased an RS1 to reverse engineer the product to play catch up. Or who purchased it to try and scavenge up some source material where the RS1 might look inferior to their product when they do demos. We want enthusiasts only to vote.

Lylepdx

03-17-07, 04:14 PM

I finally voted and mine was "just nice".

The reason for that is I do find the upgrade vs my previous projector to be a big (and expected) improvement. I am also glad I waited past my initial impulse to buy the Qualia, the Ruby, the HD81, and the Pearl. But I just couldn't wait any longer and the RS1 truely impresses.

On the other hand the RS1 was not totally ready for market IMHO (still has bugs)although certainly more ready than the Optoma or Panasonic 1080Ps. I am hoping that JVC gives us the controls we need to optimize the picture to our tastes not just their tradeoffs on our behalf to what they think the majority will prefer.

I think we are making excuses for JVC because the RS1 is a great value and breaks new ground in contrast and other areas and because they worked hard to keep us in the development loop.

While I don't think JVC should necessarily incur the expense to incorporate vertical strecth because that's not a basic or typical PJ attribute (altough it would be nice), the ability to adjust cuts and gains are certainly standard video fare on almost all projectors in this price range and is not breaking any new ground. Instead it's a step backwards vs what's typical on an otherwise exceptional advancement in performance and value. I would move my rating to exceeds if JVC gives us what are basically industry standard adjustment capabilities.

I like my projector and will keep it. I just liked my colors better on my old Virtuoso.
I got used to "real color" again in my opinion.

Lylepdx

03-17-07, 04:26 PM

I also agree that only owners should vote. If they purchased it, auditioned it at home and returned it they also qualify in my opinion. However,it's not possible to form a meaningful opinion unless one spends some time with their own PJ in theirown theater and get experienced with it and adjusted to their own tastes. There are just too many uncontrollable variables to make a legitimate evaluation based on a casual viewing outside their home theater environment or worse yet on screen shots posted on the internet.

I paid attention to owner's cooments on all the other 1080P projectors and saw as many of them as I could. I also formed strong opinions about them. However, I would never vote on an owners satisfaction survey without having spent time with that projector in my own theater. Furthermore, I would have felt misled and ill served by anyone who did vote on any projector without having had it at their theater. We have to rely on the honest input of each other to be able to make meaqningful decisions in a consumer market where it's impractical if not impossible to audition the competing, new technologies.

javdog

03-17-07, 05:09 PM

^ Sounds reasonable.

I have considered buying both and returning the "underperformer" but I feel like that is maybe putting the seller in too much of a bind. I mean, he will have to sell the "loser" as an open box, and I have a little guilt about that.

Bob Sorel

03-18-07, 07:59 AM

Lylepdx, two excellent posts! You covered roughly the same ground as I was going to expound upon...;)

I have been an RS-1 owner for about 2 weeks and I have yet to vote in this poll because it is still too soon to make an informed decision. As things stand now I am pretty much neutral in my opinion, as the JVC has met some expectations (sharpness and on/off CR), has disappointed (color accuracy, dark detail, user control and flexibility), but in all honesty I haven't experienced any of those "Wow, OMG!" moments that previous projectors have delivered. Whether this is simply because the gains from one 1080p to the next are not as great as when I moved up the last time or whether it is due to the failings of the RS-1 I don't know at this point.

Last night I finally got my new setup running (RS-1/139" wide 2.35:1 HP/ISCO III/Crystalio 2), so I sat down very relaxed and watched The Guardian on Blu-Ray and Lucky Number Slevin on HD-DVD. The huge, sharp, high contrast clear picture was amazing, but even then I couldn't help but be bothered by the inaccurate colors. Don't get me wrong, they weren't horrible, but they just were not as good as what I have grown accustomed to watching. And the dark detail in low APL scenes just wasn't there either. So I now have a picture that is both better and worse than before, so one area of improvement is offset by another area of declination. Is it overall better than before? Tough decision.

People who know me also know that I had some similar complaints (especially concerning color accuracy!) when I first got my Ruby, but eventually I tweaked and calibrated it to death and eventually I became very satisfied with the unit. The difference here is that there is nothing to tweak or calibrate, so to attain satisfaction I will be forced to use external boxes to *hopefully* get the level of performance up to where I feel it should be. If (and that is a big "if") I am able to correct the color accuracy and improve the dark detail through custom gamma processing, do I credit JVC for my satisfaction?

A side note on the color issue: I really don't know what the heck is going on. Sometimes the colors appear perfect...right on the money and accurate, while at other times the colors become neonish or cartoonish, with flesh tones having the greatest amount of variation. And this is all within the same movie or TV show, sometimes within seconds of each other. If I didn't have the Ruby RIGHT HERE and able to play the same scene a few seconds later on it, I would just chalk up the color issues to "creative color on the part of the director" or "bad transfer" or whatever. But when I can take the exact same scene played back through the exact same equipment on another projector and clearly see that colors CAN and SHOULD be better and more consistent, I have to blame the display device.

But like I said, the RS-1 is not even consistent - Sometimes it plays back scenes and the colors look exactly like the Sony's, and other times the colors just go over the top. This is not something that I have seen with ANY projector in the past. The normal situation is that the colors are ALWAYS good or ALWAYS bad, but never vary so much. BTW, I have now seen 2 different RS-1s, and this observation has been the same on both, so I don't think it is a defect in my unit. Could this be a decoding problem as opposed to a basic calibration issue?

dfrey

03-18-07, 09:38 AM

...The normal situation is that the colors are ALWAYS good or ALWAYS bad, but never vary so much. BTW, I have now seen 2 different RS-1s, and this observation has been the same on both, so I don't think it is a defect in my unit. Could this be a decoding problem as opposed to a basic calibration issue?

I agree with this. It just seems inconsistent. I haven't seen the extremes often, but there are anamolies and it's weird when talking about color.

Therefore, while I know the RGB/YPbPr analog issue gregr has identified isn't the culprit here, I can't help but think there's something else that just isn't right in the colorspace decoding across the board.

David

Pedro2

03-18-07, 11:13 AM

Bob Sorel, you obviously have very high expectations and standards and I respect that. Given that you already have a Ruby, why not simply wait for JVC to work out some of these problems and buy the RS2 when it comes out? Perhaps money is not a factor. If so, then you can simply upgrade from the RS1 to the RS2--which I predict you will do if you keep the RS1 and some of these kinks get worked out. You say you don't get the "wow factor" from the RS1 that you have gotten from other projector purchases. But isn't a big part of the RS1 "wow factor" that you can now get similar performance of a Ruby at a fraction of the cost? This what is most astonishing. Many posts on this forum seem to overlook that.

Tryg

03-18-07, 11:39 AM

Sometimes it plays back scenes and the colors look exactly like the Sony's, and other times the colors just go over the top. This is not something that I have seen with ANY projector in the past. The normal situation is that the colors are ALWAYS good or ALWAYS bad, but never vary so much. BTW, I have now seen 2 different RS-1s, and this observation has been the same on both, so I don't think it is a defect in my unit. Could this be a decoding problem as opposed to a basic calibration issue?

Bob, I think we have all noticed this.

Every projector design has it's own personalities. This is the personality of the RS1. If it makes you unhappy you should stop dating it and wait for something else.

I personally enjoyed the over the top colors.

Nobody knows for sure what the real colors on the set were unless you were there. I do know D65 colors often do not look real. Real is unfiltered and I look at plenty of D65 images where the colors are just dull.

jspielberg

03-18-07, 11:55 AM

Tryg,

All things being equal, I would say accurate colors would be better than inaccurate colors. I am sure the inaccurate colors look great! It is a pity that there is less tweaking options for the RS1. My old Colorfacts and One-eye tristimulus sensor are going to continue to collect dust once my RS1 makes it off the boat.

This probably isn't the correct venue to ask questions, but as the bulb ages, doesn't the color output drift? Is it possible that some of the green oversaturation will "age" out over time? Any good threads or reading on the characteristics of the UHP bulb output in color distribution over time?

iwanrs

03-18-07, 11:59 AM

Is that so call "Color Saturation" problems that many people complain or dispute about ?

Rob Tomlin

03-18-07, 12:22 PM

It will be interesting to see if Greg Rogers mentions anything about inconsistent color decoding that Bob mentions in his upcoming review of the RS1.

reincarnate

03-18-07, 01:04 PM

I have been an RS-1 owner for about 2 weeks and I have yet to vote in this poll because it is still too soon to make an informed decision. As things stand now I am pretty much neutral in my opinion,
Wow! How nice of you to begin asking questions now that you have done more than anyone else to disparage this wonderful breakthrough display.

Shoot first, then ask questions?:)

Bob Sorel

03-18-07, 01:52 PM

Given that you already have a Ruby, why not simply wait for JVC to work out some of these problems and buy the RS2 when it comes out?
I have already preordered the next generation RS-x from Jason...:)
But isn't a big part of the RS1 "wow factor" that you can now get similar performance of a Ruby at a fraction of the cost?
The Pearl delivers almost identical performance to the Ruby for significantly less money than either the Ruby or the RS-1.
Bob, I think we have all noticed this.
Thanks for the sanity check.
This is the personality of the RS1. If it makes you unhappy you should stop dating it and wait for something else.
Did I say I was unhappy with it? What I said was that it was more of a lateral move or minor upgrade because it is better than the Ruby in certain regards and weaker in others. I also believe that I have stated on numerous occasions that if I were to choose just one projector that it would be the RS-1.
Nobody knows for sure what the real colors on the set were unless you were there.
So people who don't work for movie production companies are not qualified to judge color accuracy? :cool:
This probably isn't the correct venue to ask questions, but as the bulb ages, doesn't the color output drift? Is it possible that some of the green oversaturation will "age" out over time? Any good threads or reading on the characteristics of the UHP bulb output in color distribution over time?
1. Yes, that is normally the case.
2. Not likely.
3. If this new lamp follows the same pattern as previous UHP lamps, red should be the limiting color.
Is that so call "Color Saturation" problems that many people complain or dispute about ?
It is all related.
It will be interesting to see if Greg Rogers mentions anything about inconsistent color decoding that Bob mentions in his upcoming review of the RS1.
Yes, it will be interesting. Greg already found a bug in the RGB decoding circuit which JVC has acknowledged and is working on a correction. I am not using RGB, though and still notice color errors, so my thought is that the decoding problem is more extensive than just in the RGB circuit.

Mark Petersen

03-18-07, 02:26 PM

Bob, have you measured the CT/ greyscale tracking on your unit? Some of the problem might be due to non-flat D65 color tracking. In other words someones face at say 90 IRE might be accurate but as the scene changes and that face drops to say 70 IRE it might color shift. Also what colorspace are you using RGB, 444, or 422? Fwiw, when I first got the RS1 I put on Chronicles of Riddick just to see the rich colors in the robes in some of the crowd scenes. The image on a HD10K with this material is just sumptuous and I was disappointed that the colors on the RS1 didn't look as good as what I remember of the HD10K. The contrast and performance in low APL scenes more than makes up for it though imho.

As far as the lack of shadow detail goes, I think this is the price of higher intra-image contrast and having much brighter whites. If the Ruby DI performs similarly to the Pearl the whites are diminished by 66% so the washout effect from these bright whites on the RS1 won't be insignificant. I know you prefer shadow detail over the brighter whites but this is a personal tradeoff that isn't really true to the source and something that the RS1 shouldn't be penalized for.

smithfarmer

03-18-07, 02:51 PM

A side note on the color issue: I really don't know what the heck is going on. Sometimes the colors appear perfect...right on the money and accurate, while at other times the colors become neonish or cartoonish, with flesh tones having the greatest amount of variation. And this is all within the same movie or TV show, sometimes within seconds of each other. If I didn't have the Ruby RIGHT HERE and able to play the same scene a few seconds later on it, I would just chalk up the color issues to "creative color on the part of the director" or "bad transfer" or whatever. But when I can take the exact same scene played back through the exact same equipment on another projector and clearly see that colors CAN and SHOULD be better and more consistent, I have to blame the display device.

But like I said, the RS-1 is not even consistent - Sometimes it plays back scenes and the colors look exactly like the Sony's, and other times the colors just go over the top. This is not something that I have seen with ANY projector in the past. The normal situation is that the colors are ALWAYS good or ALWAYS bad, but never vary so much. BTW, I have now seen 2 different RS-1s, and this observation has been the same on both, so I don't think it is a defect in my unit. Could this be a decoding problem as opposed to a basic calibration issue?

My RS1 won't be here until the third wave ships and I understood and accepted the fact that I'd need to purchase a VP in order to deal with the color saturation issue. I really don't have a problem with this as there is currently nothing else available that would give me roughly the same performance/price of an RS1/VP combo. I must say that after reading your post, this inconsistency that you and others here have spoken of, along with the possibility that a VP might not even be able to solve this problem has me greatly concerned.

I know very little about VP's but do plan on researching them thoroughly before making a decision. Besides having more source inputs and better switching capabilities, I thought the reason for getting a good VP was for their better deinterlacing solutions, gamma/gamut controls and the ability to correct color space/decoding issues. Is this an incorrect assumption?

dazzerxxx

03-18-07, 03:30 PM

As far as the lack of shadow detail goes, I think this is the price of higher intra-image contrast and having much brighter whites. If the Ruby DI performs similarly to the Pearl the whites are diminished by 66% so the washout effect from these bright whites on the RS1 won't be insignificant. I know you prefer shadow detail over the brighter whites but this is a personal tradeoff that isn't really true to the source and something that the RS1 shouldn't be penalized for.

Mark

Personally I don't like the effect of the Sony DI because to me it absolutely sucks the life out of brighter objects in darker scenes. In the real world our eyes don't perceive as much "shadow detail" when something bright such a light, fire etc enters our field of vision in an otherwise dark situation.

Dazzer

rlindo

03-18-07, 03:57 PM

Bob,

any specific scenes you can give where the colour changes so abrubtly?

I have noticed things with colours changing that had me scratching my head wondering if it was the RS1 or just in the movie. I will say I don't have the mediocre detail in low APL scenes like you seem to be having. I am getting plenty of detail in those types of scenes.

Mark Petersen

03-18-07, 05:52 PM

Mark

Personally I don't like the effect of the Sony DI because to me it absolutely sucks the life out of brighter objects in darker scenes. In the real world our eyes don't perceive as much "shadow detail" when something bright such a light, fire etc enters our field of vision in an otherwise dark situation.

Dazzer

I agree. For me if there is limited amounts of bright material in a dark scene it adds more immediacy, realism and depth to the scene. The additional luminance can washout shadow detail though which I think is Bob's point. I assume that the DP is aware of this when the scene is filmed though so seeing this scene with the full contrast range (and the bright whites) should be true to the source.

If you think about it, the white level on a non-DI projector doesn't change with APL. 100 IRE pixels have the same brightness in a bright scene as in a dark scene which I assume is why people refer to this as reference white. With a DI the lower brightness pixels, because of gamma boost can maintain the same luminance as the DI changes but not the bright pixels. This fluctuating white level is what causes BC but it's also an artifact in and of itself.

I don't think that all of what Bob is saying about the lack of shadow detail on the RS1 is due to the washout effect of bright pixels though. After expereimenting with the gamma settings on my VP, I think some of it is due to the gamma curve that JVC is using. I prefer a lower gamma setting on my VP because of its affect on the high luminance part of the greyscale, but it reduces shadow detail even more. If the RS1 had a custom gamma tool like the HD2K or HD10K I'd probably modify the gamma curve so that it was flatter at the top and about the same on the bottom. So I think some of the shadow detail issue is just related to calibration rather than something in the new panel technology or high contrast.

kiwishred

03-18-07, 06:06 PM

This is probably obvious, but if only owners vote then the pool results are almost certain to come out favourable. Opinions of anyone who chooses not to buy because the projector does not meet expectations or requirements will not be counted. :rolleyes:

Personally, if I was allowed to vote it would be in the "Below Expectations" category. Not because it doesn't put out a great picture. I have seen it and it does. But, rather because, I expect it should get the basics, the things that lesser projectors can do and that should be a given for a projector in this price category, right as well:

- I expect it to allow the user to have accurate colours if they so choose. This should not be an either/or thing.
- I expect that it should provide the full scaling capabilities of the Gennum chip.
- I expect that it should be able to do the simple things that every user will want to do, like bring up a white cross-hatch test pattern to dial in convergence, without jumping through hoops. I couldn't believe it when I first learnt this wasn't possible.

The disappointment here is that JVC appears to have done an excellent job on the basic light engine and then dropped the ball somewhat on the finishing touches. An engineering team that can get breakthrough CR can surely get a CMS implemented. They are so close to perfection yet so far. Why leave the door open for the competition at all ? Most if not all of these lingering deficits are likely easily correctable in software. It will be interesting to see if JVC steps up to the plate and delivers an upgrade package to produce a product that truly exceed the expectations of their existing and potential customers.

Just in case anyone from JVC is reading this, a "RS2" feature that I would really like to see would be an adjustable iris with about a 4:1 range. This would be useful to compensate for the 50% lamp dimming over its rated life and also, to crank up the lumens when there is ambient light. Failing that how about some threads on the lens for an ND filter ? Looks a bit tacky, "tacking on" a filter to the lens or case :eek:

Brent

Bob Sorel

03-18-07, 10:53 PM

Rob Tomlin

03-18-07, 11:42 PM

I am now a happy RS-1 owner, but it took two products to reach this nirvana - the RS-1 and the Crystalio2. You can read the details here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10063363&&#post10063363

So now how should I vote? :p

I will be combining the RS1 with an Anthem Statement D2 (with Gennum processing), so I hope to find the same nirvana that you have Bob! :)

millerwill

03-19-07, 12:03 AM

Bob, I'm delighted to hear that you are now happy, and Rob, I'm sure you will also be with the VP you describe. But I would just like to note that even without this extra wrinkle of an external processor, the RS1 is truly an amazing product. I had no idea that front projection could be SO much better--in sharpness, clarity, and color--that the rptv's that I have had. What a beginning into this new world of FP!

iwanrs

03-19-07, 01:06 AM

83 Votes so far. 17 more to hit the first ONE HUNDRED units.

Rob Tomlin

03-19-07, 01:23 AM

iwanrs

03-19-07, 03:05 PM

I am now a happy RS-1 owner, but it took two products to reach this nirvana - the RS-1 and the Crystalio2. You can read the details here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10063363&&#post10063363

So now how should I vote? :p

Bob, you should vote: Over the rainbow EXPECTATION ! :)

Make it 85 and 15 to go !!!

MikeSRC

03-19-07, 03:18 PM

As there are a number of HD1 owners voting in addition to those who don't actually own either an RS1 or HD1, you should make it over 100 soon. :D

mrlittlejeans

03-19-07, 03:23 PM

And considering almost 40% of the below expectations voters don't own the projector, you've got 21 more votes to go until you reach 100.

Wet1

03-19-07, 03:36 PM

dazzerxxx

03-19-07, 03:46 PM

. After expereimenting with the gamma settings on my VP, I think some of it is due to the gamma curve that JVC is using. I prefer a lower gamma setting on my VP because of its affect on the high luminance part of the greyscale, but it reduces shadow detail even more. .

Interesting. I'll have a play with the Lumagen gamma setting. I think it allows 11 points of adjustment.

Dazzer

MikeSRC

03-19-07, 03:47 PM

Personally, I don't care who votes or doesn't vote. This isn't a poll trying to predict the next president. Like any other poll on AVS, it's all in fun. As with all the opinions posted, good or bad, it should be taken with a grain of salt anyway. That being said, whoever starts the poll gets to make the rules and this one is an "Owners" poll.

mrlittlejeans

03-19-07, 03:48 PM

While I do own a RS1, I fail to see why someone who does not own this PJ, but has still spent sometime with it should not be allowed to express their opinion. I know people like Greg R don't own every PJ ever made, but many of you take whatever he says as gospel (I respect his opinion as well)... would you guys discount his opinion of this PJ (good or bad) because he doesn't own one??? Using your logic we should dismiss and discredit anything R&T, C&D, MT, etc. says about automobiles since they don't own everything they test, correct??? ;)

"To All RS1 OWNERS - Poll" I do believe the poll is for owners, not people who have seen and decided on something else. You could start another poll for everyone who has an opinion but doesn't own it. That would include some of the people who voted in this poll but most likely have never even seen the projector.

iwanrs

03-20-07, 10:53 PM

86 so far, and growing . . . where are the second batch, third and so on ?

Jason Turk

03-20-07, 11:06 PM

I am now a happy RS-1 owner, but it took two products to reach this nirvana - the RS-1 and the Crystalio2. You can read the details here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10063363&&#post10063363

So now how should I vote? :p
Good post Bob. Glad that combo took care of it. Thanks again!

iwanrs

03-21-07, 12:43 AM

I am now a happy RS-1 owner, but it took two products to reach this nirvana - the RS-1 and the Crystalio2. You can read the details here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10063363&&#post10063363

So now how should I vote? :p

Follow your heart Bob, not your technology brain, just vote!

Believe me, after that you will feel MUCH better in every post you make. :p

Wet1

03-21-07, 07:02 AM

Follow your heart Bob, not your technology brain, just vote!

In some cases it's better not to be heard. :)

Obviously I don't practice what I preach! :D

iwanrs

03-21-07, 09:32 PM

RS1 and Cystalio 2 combination = Over $10,000 worth of projector ?!?!

Is the picture improvement worth $10,000? Just curious.

Tony Costanza

03-21-07, 10:14 PM

Will the Crystalio2 support 24p?

iwanrs

03-21-07, 10:21 PM

Check this Tony: http://www.crystalio.com/

Tony Costanza

03-21-07, 10:27 PM

24p no. 24sF yes.

iwanrs

03-22-07, 01:13 AM

Last update:

89 in, 11 to go to reach 1st 100.

iwanrs

03-22-07, 11:46 PM

91 Votes Now.

iwanrs

03-23-07, 10:58 PM

93 votes, 7 to go to reach first 100 !

iwanrs

03-24-07, 05:03 PM

7 more to go !!!

JimmyR

03-24-07, 05:40 PM

"7 more to go"...
Then what happens ? I am missing the importance of 100 :) ?

Mark Petersen

03-24-07, 06:34 PM

"7 more to go"...
Then what happens ? I am missing the importance of 100 :) ?

When that happens Iwanrs post count will hit 10,000 :)

iwanrs

03-24-07, 11:05 PM

"7 more to go"...
Then what happens ? I am missing the importance of 100 :) ?

After 100 come the next 200 and so on. And the next batch . . . :)

It seem there are only 100 RS1 and HD1 owners out there at this moment. That is also an interesting statistic.

Mark Petersen

03-25-07, 12:00 AM

It seem there are only 100 RS1 and HD1 owners out there at this moment. That is also an interesting statistic.

And an accurate statistic. From what we've heard from JVC there were only 100 RS1s delivered in the first batch.

Rob Tomlin

03-25-07, 12:05 AM

And an accurate statistic. From what we've heard from JVC there were only 100 RS1s delivered in the first batch.

Yeah, isn't it just downright amazing that 95 of the 100 owners have posted in this very thread! :rolleyes:

iwanrs

03-25-07, 01:41 AM

now it's getting there! 3 more votes to top the first 100 mark.

By the way, can we say that the first batch of 100 RS1 owners (100 only in US as Mark said?) are all member of AVSF? No stranger at all???

units

03-25-07, 03:32 AM

Yeah, isn't it just downright amazing that 95 of the 100 owners have posted in this very thread! :rolleyes:

It really is...in fact, it is just so amazing (and I have so much time to kill right now), that I checked into the "below expectations" posters:

agrsiv95: BenQ W10000 owner.
BocaPimp: Pearl owner.
jeroen: G70 CRT owner.
MC6: 3 chip DLP owner.
Michael9009: Pearl owner.
owl1: Ruby owner.
REWJR: Epson TW-600 owner.
TheHDMan: Panny AX-100 owner.
adaseng: Mystery poster with 16 posts in last four years (3 posts in pj forums).
eddyxwb: Mystery poster with 7 posts in last three years (no posts in pj forums).
tmiyamoto: Mystery poster with 5 posts this year (no posts in pj forums).
pteittinen: Had a bum unit HD1, got it exchanged, and stated in post #1248 of the JVC owner's thread that if he could, he would change his vote here to JN.
And, thusly, leaving the ONLY reliable "below expectations" vote: Wet1 (who I sincerely hope finds a solution).

So, there you have it: only one "below expectations" vote, and eleven votes that don't meet the requirements posted by the poll starter at best, and are total BS at worst. How's that for spin?

I suppose I could also research the votes in the other two catagories, but they aren't nearly as interesting.... ;)

Mark Petersen

03-25-07, 05:11 AM

It really is...in fact, it is just so amazing (and I have so much time to kill right now), that I checked into the "below expectations" posters:

agrsiv95: BenQ W10000 owner.
BocaPimp: Pearl owner.
jeroen: G70 CRT owner.
MC6: 3 chip DLP owner.
Michael9009: Pearl owner.
owl1: Ruby owner.
REWJR: Epson TW-600 owner.
TheHDMan: Panny AX-100 owner.
adaseng: Mystery poster with 16 posts in last four years (3 posts in pj forums).
eddyxwb: Mystery poster with 7 posts in last three years (no posts in pj forums).
tmiyamoto: Mystery poster with 5 posts this year (no posts in pj forums).
pteittinen: Had a bum unit HD1, got it exchanged, and stated in post #1248 of the JVC owner's thread that if he could, he would change his vote here to JN.
And, thusly, leaving the ONLY reliable "below expectations" vote: Wet1 (who I sincerely hope finds a solution).

So, there you have it: only one "below expectations" vote, and eleven votes that don't meet the requirements posted by the poll starter at best, and are total BS at worst. How's that for spin?

I suppose I could also research the votes in the other two catagories, but they aren't nearly as interesting.... ;)

Nice expose! It looks like some members have some explaining to do ;)

Catdaddy67

03-25-07, 05:30 AM

Oops!

Bob Sorel

03-25-07, 05:53 AM

Just about everyone owned a projector previously to buying the RS-1. I bet if you did your homework you would find that most, if not all, of the respondents in the other 2 groups also have a "shady" background. That "Mark Petersen" guy, for example, is one who I happen to know owns an HD-2K, so I wouldn't trust anything he has to say about the RS-1...:D

The reason I brought this up is simply because at least one of the members listed, owl1, is someone I know who owns a Ruby (you are correct), but most definitely bought an RS-1 and was not too happy with it overall.

I better not vote either (unless I vote "above expectations", that is), as I was a Ruby owner - and still am.

I'm not saying that there are no fakers reporting (in any of the groups...;) ), but that there needs to be more investigation before condemning anyone.

jasonDono

03-25-07, 08:32 AM

Catdaddy67

03-25-07, 10:24 AM

"To All RS1 OWNERS - Poll" I do believe the poll is for owners, not people who have seen and decided on something else. You could start another poll for everyone who has an opinion but doesn't own it. That would include some of the people who voted in this poll but most likely have never even seen the projector.

While I do own a RS1, I fail to see why someone who does not own this PJ, but has still spent sometime with it should not be allowed to express their opinion. I know people like Greg R don't own every PJ ever made, but many of you take whatever he says as gospel (I respect his opinion as well)... would you guys discount his opinion of this PJ (good or bad) because he doesn't own one??? Using your logic we should dismiss and discredit anything R&T, C&D, MT, etc. says about automobiles since they don't own everything they test, correct???
I think its probably done to remove a different kind of bias.

As you know, owners of PJs tend to be more biased, or defensive, of the PJs they have purchased. Although you would expect a majority of RS1 owners to be happy with their PJ, considering that bias, a higher (close to 100%) poll would indicate to me that all are really pleased with their PJ purchase and a lower percentage, like what it shows now, could indicate some serious issues, specially this early in the game.

If you took a poll of only HD81 owners, I wouldnt know how many owners would respond accordingly, because of the bias, but I would definitely expect the number who are not experiencing above expectations to be relatively a lot higher than with the RS1, or Ruby, Pearl, Sharp 20k, or Marantz 11s1. If you took that poll of all members that number would definitely be skewed towards underperforming.

Its kind of like taking a poll within the republican party if you want to know how republicans are feeling about something, versus taking a poll that includes democrats too to find out how republicans are feeling.

units

03-25-07, 10:49 AM

Bob:

I'm certainly not condemning anyone....I honestly meant for my post to be taken lightheartedly, thus the "how's that for spin?" comment...a reference to my fanboydom for the pj...

That said, I certainly apologize to owl. I could locate no reference to him having any experience with the pj.

And granted, nearly all have had other pj's before, but if you look, you'll see that several of those I mentioned have been actively posting regarding their continued use of the same pj's after voting in the poll with no mention of the JVC...

I think it's probably safe to say that some simply didn't realize it was a public poll before voting... ;)

Anyone else displeased with my investigative journalism feel free to let me have it! :eek:

Bob Sorel

03-25-07, 12:15 PM

I think it's probably safe to say that some simply didn't realize it was a public poll before voting...
Yes, it is amazing how low people will sink when they think they are behind a wall of anonymity just to cast that vote and find that name (or in most cases another pseudoname encased in yet another layer of anonymity :) ) exposed for everyone to see. This was very apparent with the Pearl owner satisfaction poll as well, and there is a good chance that some portion of the list in this thread has falsified claims in order to satisfy some twisted agenda. I didn't mean to criticize your investigative work, but merely to point out that we need to be careful in analyzing the results.

Even the legitimate owners, by reporting their level of satisfaction so early, are creating a bit of injustice as well. I know, for example, that I was extremely pleased with most every new car I bought in the last 30 years, yet if you were to ask me the same question a couple of months or even a couple of weeks after I bought it I would in some cases give you a very different answer.

When I first started viewing material on the second RS-1, my thoughts were that it was head and shoulders above my old Ruby (when combined with the Crystalio 2, that is), but doing side by side comparisons using the exact same EVERYTHING except for the projector itself reveals the fact that the differences are not as huge as my excitement and imagination might think. Hey, guess what, that HD-DVD of King Kong looks fantastic on he RS-1, but guess what again, it looks almost as fantastic on he Ruby!

And no, I am doing a flip flop on my observations, regardless of what reincarnate has to say about it. The RS-1 does indeed present the finest image I have seen to date, but if it were to be the last word in projectors, then I would be very disappointed. It is a new technology with a good start, but needs more development. I consider it better than my Ruby overall, but there are still certain types of program material that look better on the Ruby and certain types that look better on the RS-1. If I were a salesman trying to sell you either projector it would not be too hard to cherry pick some demo material to play up to the strengths of the projector I wanted to sell to you, especially if I were to play a few "tricks" by setting up a less than desirable gamma curve here, or fixing up color saturation with an external device there.

So with these points in mind, I am finally casting my vote, though it doesn't really say what I want to say. I am voting "just nice, nothing more, nothing less" ONLY because it is the closest to what I think. Maybe with the next generation of RS series projectors JVC will incorporate some or all of the improvements listed in the "JVC RS-1 - What would you change?" thread, and if they did they would distinguish themselves to a larger degree from the rest of the pack, but let's not forget that "the rest of the pack" won't be sitting on their behinds either...:)

JimmyR

03-25-07, 12:37 PM

If only the RS1 had all the strengths, goodies and extra features like that terrific litte Panosonic AX100 has then all RS1 folks would be oh so happy..:)

Bob Sorel

03-25-07, 12:42 PM

Hey, that was supposed to be my line!

JimmyR

03-25-07, 12:44 PM

I waited 6 weeks for you to say something Bob. I figured you just plain forgot to shout it out :).

smithfarmer

03-25-07, 12:48 PM

Even the legitimate owners, by reporting their level of satisfaction so early, are creating a bit of injustice as well. I know, for example, that I was extremely pleased with most every new car I bought in the last 30 years, yet if you were to ask me the same question a couple of months or even a couple of weeks after I bought it I would in some cases give you a very different answer.

In a few months I think a new poll would be in order to more accurately reflect RS1 owners satisfaction.

The RS-1 does indeed present the finest image I have seen to date.....

I consider it better than my Ruby overall....

I'm curious how you would've voted if you didn't have the Crystalio 2 in the chain? ;)

Wet1

03-25-07, 01:03 PM

I'm curious how you would've voted if you didn't have the Crystalio 2 in the chain? ;)
Indeed.

Although I like the RS1 a lot, it did not meet my expectations as a stand alone PJ. With that said, other than the MC my unit has, I would be very happy with this PJ if I had something like the Crystalio 2 in-line to fix most of this PJs shortcomings. But then we are adding an expensive VP in the mix and I don't think that's the spirit of what the OP had in mind when the poll was created.

Catdaddy67

03-25-07, 01:21 PM

And no, I am doing a flip flop on my observations, ...

Is Bob Sorel your real name or is it just a screen name? Are you really ...

John Kerry? 8)

Bob Sorel

03-25-07, 02:21 PM

I'm curious how you would've voted if you didn't have the Crystalio 2 in the chain?
Good question! By having the C2 in the chain I am feeding both projectors with pristine 1080p signals, thus eliminating a whole set of variables that others will need to consider. All source scaling, deinterlacing, and any other processing is being done prior to sending the signal out to the display, so in that respect both displays are being judged on a level field, but this is not the way that the majority of people will be using their projectors.

The interesting thing to note is that I never felt the need to use the saturation control or change to a better gamma curve using the Ruby, where the use of these 2 controls added quite a bit of quality to what I got out of the RS-1. Take away those 2 controls and the Ruby and RS-1 become closer in quality, though I still feel that the RS-1 would have a slight edge. Since I have no idea how good the scaling and deinterlacing are in either projector (since I don't use them), internal processing would again be another factor for people to consider in deciding whether the RS-1 is right for them or not.
Is Bob Sorel your real name or is it just a screen name? Are you really ...

John Kerry? 8)
Bob Kerry...I'm John's secret illegimate son...:p

kiwishred

03-25-07, 02:21 PM

Well, I got in the 100th vote. What is the prize ?

And, it was below expectations. Reson: I expect it to get the basics right. At a minimum, it should provide users the option to display standard colours if they so choose. Also, I expect it to be able to have flexible and accurate scaling (especially with the much vaunted Gennum)

No, I am not a current owner (but that didn't stop Tryg from voting :p). I am however seriously thinking about getting one. But, I like to feel good about a product. I like to think it was built by people with a passion to do make it the best it could be. Clearly this was the way the RS1 started off. But then it seems they dropped the ball at the very end. Didn't quite get the finishing touches done. Well, let's see if JVC steps up to the plate with a firmware update....

Brent

MikeSRC

03-25-07, 02:39 PM

The interesting thing to note is that I never felt the need to use the saturation control or change to a better gamma curve using the Ruby, where the use of these 2 controls added quite a bit of quality to what I got out of the RS-1. Take away those 2 controls and the Ruby and RS-1 become closer in quality, though I still feel that the RS-1 would have a slight edge.

Ekkehart's (Cine4Home) comments in his HD-1 review regarding the Ruby/HD-1 color space offers some explanation for the saturation difference (even though the two CIE charts are nearly identical) as follows:

"In the comparison it is visible that the Color Space is comparable in size, only with red the Xenon lamp offers even more room for stronger colors. These results are impressive, nevertheless two completely different lamp techniques are in use. In the spectrographic analysis however, differences show up nevertheless: with the UHP lamp disturbing spectral portions are filtered as already described, while with Xenon the spectrum can be projected on the screen almost unfiltered.

For our part, we are also of the opinion that the Xenon lamp still makes a difference. The JVC HD1 offers an absolutely protruding image representation, which accurately simulates the large cinema chromatic spectrum. They have consciously jumped over the limitations of the video standard with its almost "pale" primary colors. One scene or another appears a little too oversaturated in a comparison nevertheless, where a Xenon projector like the VPL-100 succeeds in mixing natural colors and strengthens "pop-out" colors where desired, better than the HD1. (emphasis added)

Concerning the topic of Color Space, minds are increasingly apart: video purists will criticize the fact that the required Color Space offers more, than the video standard plans for and this way could possibly over-saturate colors. Film fans however see a disturbing compromise to the cinema original in a reduced Video Color Space. In any case, a point of criticism is the fact that the HD1 does not offer a real Color Space adjustment, a sort of Color Management like many other projectors in this price range. So one is fixed on the large Color Space and can affect it only with the help of the general saturation sliders. A selection of different Color Spaces would have been desirable at minimum, as many projectors on the market offer. For film viewing the factory selection of the HD1 is more than recommendable however and meets the taste of most home cinema fans who want to really bring the cinema experience, with all its color splendor, home."

Mark Petersen

03-25-07, 03:01 PM

. That "Mark Petersen" guy, for example, is one who I happen to know owns an HD-2K, so I wouldn't trust anything he has to say about the RS-1...:D

:D :D :D

Rob Tomlin

03-25-07, 06:12 PM

That "Mark Petersen" guy, for example, is one who I happen to know owns an HD-2K, so I wouldn't trust anything he has to say about the RS-1...:D

Well, that Mark Petersen fella hasn't had a whole lot of positive things to say about the RS1 lately anyway! :eek:

jasonDono

03-25-07, 08:33 PM

I deleted my last post. Already answered by Bob. teach me to respond to post without reading the rest of the thread. :o

Mark Petersen

03-25-07, 10:07 PM

Well, that Mark Petersen fella hasn't had a whole lot of positive things to say about the RS1 lately anyway! :eek:

:D

Well I will say one thing positive - Despite the issues that have been uncovered recently with 1080i deinterlacing, gamma, color shifting, optics, greyscale bug, watermarks, shading, etc. the RS-1 still throws an amazing image. It just goes to show you what monster CR can do for a digital. The black level, contrast and punch of the RS-1 still make up for a lot of flaws imho. This technology can be a lot better though. Hopefully JVC will fix things with the next gen projector.

Rob Tomlin

03-25-07, 10:20 PM

:D

Well I will say one thing positive - Despite the issues that have been uncovered recently with 1080i deinterlacing, gamma, color shifting, optics, greyscale bug, watermarks, shading, etc. the RS-1 still throws an amazing image. It just goes to show you what monster CR can do for a digital. The black level, contrast and punch of the RS-1 still make up for a lot of flaws imho. This technology can be a lot better though. Hopefully JVC will fix things with the next gen projector.

Uh......what issue with 1080i deinterlacing?

Cripes Mark, I am going to have to consider putting you on my ignore list! :eek: ;)

Catdaddy67

03-25-07, 10:35 PM

Without a doubt, despite the fringing (despite the great convergence), it still the best picture, by far, ive seen on a PJ recently. (Ruby, Pearl, Sharp 20k, and some 720p pjs.)

Toe

03-25-07, 10:51 PM

What is the issue with 1080i deinterlacing?

Mark Petersen

03-25-07, 11:11 PM

Uh......what issue with 1080i deinterlacing?

Cripes Mark, I am going to have to consider putting you on my ignore list! :eek: ;)

Man, I hate to be the bearer of bad news :( I haven't used the internal Gennum since I bought my RS-1 because I heard of some of the issues and I have a VP50 which is pretty full featured and delivers excellent deinterlacing and scaling. So I tried 1080i into the RS-1 today to see if the color shifting problem was affected by it. I was shocked at how much different (worse) a resolution test pattern looks on the RS-1 with the internal Gennum and 1080i rather than feeding it 1080p. I had expected little to no difference but the Gennum doesn't resolve the high frequency detail very well at all. I know the Gennum chipset has been used in other projectors with good results so I assume there must be something wrong with JVC's implementation. If a person has an outboard VP, I wouldn't bother with the Gennum until 1080i is fixed.

Toe

03-26-07, 12:08 AM

Man, I hate to be the bearer of bad news :( I haven't used the internal Gennum since I bought my RS-1 because I heard of some of the issues and I have a VP50 which is pretty full featured and delivers excellent deinterlacing and scaling. So I tried 1080i into the RS-1 today to see if the color shifting problem was affected by it. I was shocked at how much different (worse) a resolution test pattern looks on the RS-1 with the internal Gennum and 1080i rather than feeding it 1080p. I had expected little to no difference but the Gennum doesn't resolve the high frequency detail very well at all. I know the Gennum chipset has been used in other projectors with good results so I assume there must be something wrong with JVC's implementation. If a person has an outboard VP, I wouldn't bother with the Gennum until 1080i is fixed.

:( Thanks for the report. Does not sound good.

Mark Petersen

03-26-07, 12:37 AM

:( Thanks for the report. Does not sound good.

I just posted some photos of the deinterlacing problem (and also shading and a greyscale artifact) here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10126280&&#post10126280

phisch

03-26-07, 12:54 AM

After looking at those photos of the deinterlacing problems, it would seem that the use of an outboard processor is going to be a necessity. How bad does this problem degrade the picture?

iwanrs

03-26-07, 03:37 AM

Horay . . . FIREWORK * : * : * : * : * _ - * * *

Finally we reach 102 votes. Amazing !

Bob must be the one who tops the 100 mark!

You deserve a complimentary gift:
JVC will send you the first and new improved RS2 on due time. :)

Now, who will get the no. 200 spot? :) :) :) :) :) :)

iwanrs

03-26-07, 04:42 AM

Ooops, I made mistake:

Sorry Bob Kerry Jr. you have to surrender your gift to kiwishred.

Congrats kiwishred ! ! !

mrlittlejeans

03-26-07, 09:52 AM

Kiwishred - Have you seen the projector?

I wonder if the SIM2 employee who voted owns one too.

Toe

03-26-07, 10:06 AM

After looking at those photos of the deinterlacing problems, it would seem that the use of an outboard processor is going to be a necessity. How bad does this problem degrade the picture?

GregR did NOT find the same thing (atleast with 1080i) so it sounds as if it is something else in Marks chain at this point. Greg has said the deinterlacing on the RS1 looks like he would expect it to with the Gennum chip.

phisch

03-26-07, 11:30 AM

GregR did NOT find the same thing (atleast with 1080i) so it sounds as if it is something else in Marks chain at this point. Greg has said the deinterlacing on the RS1 looks like he would expect it to with the Gennum chip.

That is very good news indeed, since the majority of my viewing will be with HD DVD and BluRay and I don't currently own a seperate vp.

Catdaddy67

03-26-07, 11:39 AM

Who is the Sim2 employee?

mrlittlejeans

03-26-07, 11:44 AM

grandcinema - the managing director of Sim2. Not in very good taste.

Mark Petersen

03-26-07, 01:42 PM

That is very good news indeed, since the majority of my viewing will be with HD DVD and BluRay and I don't currently own a seperate vp.

It looks like the 1080i problem was related to using a VP in pass through mode. After bypassing the VP and feeding 1080i directly int the RS-1 the image looks great! So this is one mystery solved and one less chink in the RS1 armor. :)

Alimentall

03-26-07, 01:45 PM

You definitely don't want to do anything but native resolution on this projector!

Toe

03-26-07, 02:18 PM

kiwishred

03-26-07, 04:51 PM

Sorry Bob Kerry Jr. you have to surrender your gift to kiwishred.Nah - My vote was illegal. Bob can be the beta tester. For one thing he is one class act whose insights I really appreciate (take that reincarnate :rolleyes: ). For another, he already has an external VP (apparently a requirement for JVC products) which I don't. Not only can I not afford one, I refuse on principle to buy something to fulfill functions that should be properly implemented in the projector in the first place.

Kiwishred - Have you seen the projector?Yep, briefly. Posted some initial thoughts about it here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10017890&&#post10017890). And it looks great. But so do a lot of other projectors. This poll is about expectations which for me at least, for reasons detailed just above and also here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10061535&&#post10061535), the RS1 currently comes up a bit short.

Brent

Rob Tomlin

03-26-07, 07:37 PM

It looks like the 1080i problem was related to using a VP in pass through mode. After bypassing the VP and feeding 1080i directly int the RS-1 the image looks great! So this is one mystery solved and one less chink in the RS1 armor. :)

Yeah, Greg didn't notice a problem with 1080i to the RS1. I still think it is weird that you got those results using the pass through on the VP50 though. What would make it do that? :confused:

millerwill

03-26-07, 09:02 PM

phisch

03-26-07, 09:08 PM

I know GregR's review has made me feel better. :)

Rob Tomlin

03-26-07, 10:01 PM

Seems like GregR's review has calmed down some of the irrational hysteria that has been festering with a number of 'issues' that people have been focusing on. A breath of fresh air (and rationality). Nevertheless, I do look forward to a FW update from JVC to correct some of the glitches that have been noted.

Well said, Bill, well said!

Although it was clear from Greg's review that the RS1 has a few issues, including the much discussed over-saturated colors, it was quite obvious from the review that he was actually quite excited about the RS1 and it's breakthrough C/R combined with good light output, as well as better sharpness over the other LCoS projectors $10,000.00 and less.

It was interesting to note too that Greg specifically indicated that he thought many viewers will actually have a preference for the RS1's colors.

jspielberg

03-26-07, 10:55 PM

I am still awaiting my RS1... but I must say that this post has been very useful to me.

It has lowered my expectations to such a level that I think it will be hard for me to not mark "Above expectations!" :o

iwanrs

03-26-07, 11:58 PM

mandarax

03-27-07, 08:25 PM

I cheated ... sort of... I sold my demo unit in batch one but now have my own in batch two. BTW after the dust settles anyone that wishes to view the projector can drop me a line. I am about 40 minutes West of Toronto, Canada. I am in the process of redoing a room and building a second one so you will have to bear with the movement of some objects as this takes place. On most of the installs I did of these in batch one there was some differences that were apparent from different sources. Hooking these up to mainly Toshiba XA2s with a Pioneer Elite Bluray player. The colors without adjustment seemed to be a bit "warmer" on the Bluray. Of all the units all but one seemed to be putting out the same picture out of the box and would say that of all the projectors I have seen the RS1 was the most uniform in terms of what to expect out of the box. After going back to do some upgrades to the Bluray player some already had over 100 hours on the bulb and there was a general improvement actually in the color production coming out of the projector after the spectral behavior of the bulb had settled in. On the RGB issue which I believe will be an eminent forthcoming fix the issue seemed to have festered to some rather unsettling results so I hope this gets fixed sooner rather than later.

I voted that the projector exceeded my expectations btw. After seeing the projector at CES I knew it was a winner but all of the production units that I saw were better than the unit I saw at CES. The projector will be surpassed eventually as all projectors are. At present I think it hits a price/ performance value that is difficult to beat. I know that some will disparage dealers for commenting but take it for what its worth. The interesting comments abound that in reviews many people will not in fact pick the perfect D65 presentation and prefer a variation other than the perceived perfection. Note I havent seen a perfect calibration yet. Colorfacts just changed their instrument to be more accurate and it wasnt because the existing one was perfect. In ISF training the Minolta sensor that cost 10 times that of the Sencore unit did in fact give different results consistently. In any event I think what tryg was saying is that at some point some people and surely not all will let themselves go and let their eyes decide. I remember many moons ago making my own prints with an enlarger and trying out different film. Well each film did look different and specifically in its colors. In certain conditions I would like each of the offerings and had sets of each film depending on what I was shooting. Although one was the most accurate or what I felt was the most accurate I liked the other manufacturerers film for certain types of shots. The hardware is just a device to have some fun with. Dont torture yourself with reviews. Literally too bright, not bright enough, too loud, whisper quiet, neon vehicles, glowing nature, very natural to unnatural skin tones within minutes or seconds on the same source on the same movie, and on and on it goes. Pretty confusing for the regular schmo. If you get a chance to view the piece before buying it it is worth the investment in time.

One thread I would like to see is for the owners to put together a prioritized list of changes or tweaks that they would like to see on this projector. At least if someone from JVC who does frequent the AVS threads could take a prioritized list and say ... this is possible... or no you are beat like a goof on that one. Its a big company, at least an action compelling list has a better chance of getting results. I like the whining but I don't think it will get much done and after you hear the same thing over and over again just from the same handful or less it ends up being something that you just want to slam the door shut or get a muzzle. The items that reoccur are not discountable and as a consumer it is better to have a united voice. As a manufacturer I know I would listen to a unified voice moreso than a handful of whiners. I already find myself scrolling over and not reading some posts not out of disrespect but I already know the story and have read it 10 times. Just a thought.... If it hits a wall .... not a huge tragedy. One of the posters gave the common life cycle of a projector and its history on the threads. Although the version seemed to be on the misanthropic side, it wasnt too far from the truth. Maybe a company that put the genius behind this great piece of hardware will learn from that history and ride out a piece beyond a one or two year wonder and give all the early adapters a piece to hold on to beyond the one or two year life cycle.... wait a minute ... then I would be out of business .. never mind ... carry on.

Great post btw and very strong numbers... It would have been great to have a line between what the goals of the individuals were and have them linked to the expectations. That way people with similar goals would be able to align themselves totally with the likelihood that their expectations would be met. But the numbers are fairly significantly positive in any event. If you want to cast out my positive vote because of being a dealer ... no problem.

Mark Petersen

03-27-07, 09:12 PM

Yeah, Greg didn't notice a problem with 1080i to the RS1. I still think it is weird that you got those results using the pass through on the VP50 though. What would make it do that? :confused:

Not sure.

Seems like GregR's review has calmed down some of the irrational hysteria that has been festering with a number of 'issues' that people have been focusing on. A breath of fresh air (and rationality). Nevertheless, I do look forward to a FW update from JVC to correct some of the glitches that have been noted.

This is AVS, that's all we do is focus on problems :D

iwanrs

03-27-07, 10:48 PM

The pool has reach 104 votes as now! With over 56% very happy and 26% happy RS1 Owners.

I want to thank all the participants and posts to this topic.
As initiator of this poll, I want to share some of my explanation regarding the background and facts lead to this poll:

1. We all know that this JVC RS1 is the star of this forum (Projector over $3,000), it is the talk of town/forum since end of last year and even more intensify after its first appearance in 2007 CES in Las Vegas, with many applauses and highly rated posts/reviews. Even the highly trained and professional experts/gurus in this field claimed “The best picture I’ve seen as now”.

2. It is also a fact that JVC has caused many disappointment of people are waiting in line to have this "Uber" Projector, with its promised and delayed in delivery of first shipment of RS1 in USA. With that not so friendly situation, people who are waiting in line to get the first batch of RS1 become so furious and inpatient about the date of delivery. I don’t remember (correct me if I’m wrong) in AFS Forum history, launching of products has such a huge impact that some of the people in charge even have to study and involve in the “Trucking System Movement Monitoring”? At one time Jason even tried to ask (or instructed) FEDEX to utilized one extra special truck to make the delivery, which was declined by FEDEX.

3. We can imagine how many trouble and how high the tension of “Expectation” of so many pre-order buyers are in line, again promised and delayed is still the name of the game.

4. I recall, there is one owner of RS1 intended to skip work just because to get his hand on this new pj as soon as he can, with so many tension among us we found out latter that he can not skip work because he is running his own business! What a relieve! I believe there are many people skipped their work the very day they know the delivery is at their door step. If people can afford $5,000 plus pj in their home, they are not just average worker, they are in manager level professional. So, if those highly responsible, high level professionals skipped their duty just to touch and power up the RS1. Well you can get the picture how high is the “Expectation” level.

5. One of the nice feeling of having a new gadget or new toy is the very first time you get the first look and most of all the first tough and impression. As my personal experience, the excitement of having a new pj is the first time when the image comes out of the box (pj). That is the most important moment that is really matter and a joyful moment when the pj can satisfy or dissatisfy our expectation of the new pj, regardless difference people have difference expectation, eg. Brightness, contrast, sharpness, color, black level, convergence, fan noise, build quality, physical color and appearance etc. etc.

That is the main reason and background for me to initiate this poll:
With so many expectation of quality and performance of this most talk about RS1, we want to know and capture the first glimpse of RS1 owners when they turn on that power button at the very first time and see “first” ever picture on screen. And at that very moment they compare it with their previous projector’s picture quality or try to match the picture quality with their expectation and high hope adrenalin in their brain or blood.

That is this poll all about, “First feeling of Expectation” not about satisfy or not satisfy with their pj at the end after tweaking and calibration.

Put it in just a simple question:
Is the RS1/HD1’s (you just purchased) out of the box appearance and first few minutes of picture quality as general: Above, Below or Just as you’ve expected before?

And now sit back and relax, enjoy the picture. ;)

Let’s go for the next 200 level.

:) :) :) :) :)

PS. This poll can be used as a counter of RS/HD1 owners as well. Useful stats for JVC too. :rolleyes:

mandarax

03-28-07, 09:54 AM

"This poll can be used as a counter of RS/HD1 owners as well. Useful stats for JVC too"

Trust me no manufacturer really wants their numbers of units sold out in the marketplace. It does them more harm than good. Its called competitive intelligence.

cal87

03-29-07, 12:24 AM

iwanrs

03-29-07, 12:29 AM

Can I change my vote?

I had voted Just Nice - because I expected to be very pleased and I was/am.

I just finished watching Happy Feet. Between the picture on the RS1 and the TrueHD soundtrack - OMFG!

Have to say above expectations now.

How you get "TrueHD" out? HDMI and with what processor???

Now you are at 7th heaven of expectation, I believe :p

EricE

04-02-07, 10:25 AM

Well after waiting for what seemed like an eternity (2+ weeks.... :D ) I finally got my RS1.

Buying sight unseen and only going by the threads and reviews throughout the net I took a chance on the RS1 even after the posts about oversaturated colors and bright corners. Well I can tell you that on my unit I see no bright corners at all. I just see a beautiful bright picture.

I was also worried about the oversaturated colors problem but again using HDMI connection between a PS3 and a upconverting Denon SD DVD player I was more than pleased. My wife and in-laws who say the image produced by the JVC commented on the beautiful looking colors. By brother-in-law (who is a graphic artist) commented on the natural looking saturated colors. Sure they may be off a bit using component or even HDMI but it does not diminish the overall impact of the projected image.

I was especially impressed with the shadow detail and black levels. The Samsung Blu-Ray demo with the clips from Batman and Corps Bride had shades of black that were very impressive. We finally sat down to a movie last night and it was the Blu-Ray of Eragon. A perfect movie to showcase black levels and shading! I could not have asked for a better image!!!

The only complaint that I do have is that the contrast and overall blackness of black scenes caused me to see 2 green LED's from the backside of my SVS Ultra subs which are placed at the front near the screen. It was actually my wife who saw the green shadow and I though for a second it was the bright corners issue. A quick mask using some black electrical tape solved that problem.

Although I came from a 5+ year old Sharp Z9000 DLP projector and after looking at a few of the other 1080P projectors I can safely say that the JVC RS-1 has exceeded my expectations.

Hughman

04-02-07, 10:39 AM

I had to vote JN: just nice no more no less which seems a little unfair but this projector did not exceed my expectations. My expectations were lofty and I doubt any projector could have exceeded them but to JVC's credit I can confidently say the projector did meet these very high expectations.

iwanrs

04-10-07, 12:12 AM

117 votes so far.

Any new Club Members? ;)

PapaSloth

04-10-07, 09:29 AM

117 votes so far.

Any new Club Members? ;)

Dude. How many times are you going to bump this thread? Go watch a movie ;)

BIGmouthinDC

04-10-07, 10:01 AM

Howard Stern is planning on asking his listeners to vote "below my expectaions" so that the final results will be bogus.

Rob Tomlin

04-10-07, 10:49 AM

117 votes so far.

Any new Club Members? ;)

Still too early for me to vote. But I know which way I am leaning. ;)

Alimentall

04-10-07, 02:07 PM

Give me til Thursday and I'll vote.

DomNY

04-10-07, 03:06 PM

Just voted after 12 hours on the RS1. Incredible looking.
Dom

krholmberg

04-10-07, 08:30 PM

I just voted and selected it was just as I expected. So much had been written that it was difficult not to have accurate expectations. Right now I'm only feeding the PJ with an Oppo 981, but I'm very impressed with how clear the image is. My seated distance is 1.5x screen width. The image is much better than my uncles 56" D-ILA rear projection TV. Now, having said that, I do have bright corners (not too annoying and there is conisderable background noise in dark scenes). I know I'm dealing with an inferior source, but it's still there. My convergence is almost spot-on. Overall I'm very happy, but I expected to be. My HD tuner came in the mail today, so I'll set it up after work. I'm still waiting to get a high def player... probably PS3 first and later a HD-DVD player (if still relavent). It really is a nice projector.

iwanrs

04-10-07, 10:20 PM

Dude. How many times are you going to bump this thread? Go watch a movie ;)

I watch movies every night and I have to keep this poll alive too.

Because it is just too much excitement around, before and after RS1 ! :p

We are now at 133 votes, 16 votes more than last time I hit the refresh button (117) ! :rolleyes:

iwanrs

04-10-07, 10:27 PM

Still too early for me to vote. But I know which way I am leaning. ;)

It is consider an AX vote. Just vote in Rob, no obligation to buy anything afterall. :eek:

And ask your BULBs to vote too . . . :D

iwanrs

04-10-07, 10:48 PM

So, despite some imperfections, this is an amazing projector, and the upgrade over my old projector is HUGE. In fact, if anything, I would say the improvement is even bigger than I had anticipated! There were times when I was waiting for the RS1 to arrive, watching my Dwin, when I would say to myself "this actually looks pretty good, I wonder if the RS1 is really worth the upgrade"? Now I am embarrassed to publicly admit that I thought that! :eek:

ROB, is that a vote or no vote ?!?! Come on hit that button, so you can sleep with smiles :) :) :)

Rob Tomlin

04-10-07, 10:53 PM

Rob Tomlin

04-11-07, 06:43 PM

:D

Give me one more day, dude! ;)

Ok, I am ready.

Let me preface this briefly by saying that my expectations about the RS1 were tempered a fair amount by all of the discussions regarding issues such as over-saturated colors, poor video processing, shading, white field uniformity, fan noise, etc. So, I guess I could say that my expectations weren't as big as they were based on the very early reviews, despite the fact that we all knew that there would be at least a few compromises.

I have found that the benefits and strengths of this projector outweigh the few negatives that it has. Perhaps I am lucky and have a "good" unit. My convergence is pretty darn good (it is off by 1/2 pixel in the far edges/corners and near perfect in the center of the screen), bright corners are barely noticeable, and uniformity/shading is more than acceptable.

To me, the biggest drawback to this projector is the (no suprise here) much discussed over-saturation and apparent inability to correct it. That said, colors still can look amazing, without being over the top 90% of the time.

There is also this issue of grain/noise that appears to be more noticeable on the RS1. I will continue to follow this issue, as I am still not convinced 100% whether the RS1 is simply resolving more issues with the source or what...

Since this projector is such a big improvment over my last one, I am more than happy with the purchase. Overall, it has, indeed, exceeded my expectations.

5mark

04-11-07, 07:57 PM

Ok, I guess I'd better vote. There's no question that the smooth, sharp, detailed images I'm seeing from 1.0 SW have exceeded my expectations. I have to thank Mark Petersen for assuring me that the RS1 would be able to handle one screen width before I bought my new screen. I still didn't think it could be THIS good. I don't think the competition could have measured up in these areas, especially from where I'm sitting.

As far as the colors, I'd have to say slightly above expectations, simply because my expectations were lowered quite a bit by all the talk around here. ;)

Contrast/black level have also exceeded my expectation on dark scenes and it's amazing to actually look forward to them. :eek: Mixed and bright scenes haven't quite met my expectations, but I'm sure that's partly my room's fault. I'm currently taking steps to rectify the situation. The RS1 definitely deserves it.

Overall: Above Expectations! :cool: :D

iwanrs

04-11-07, 11:54 PM

Finally, ROB! Yes finally the long awaited and most anticipated vote was in. What a relieve!

Congrats! Now you may sit back, relax an enjoy your JVC RS1 - AX version :)

I will not bother you again! (in this thread) :p :p :p

rdalcanto

04-12-07, 12:43 AM

I voted below expectation....
The fan is very loud, like it is out of balance.
The colors seem off, despite being perfect on test images with blue filter and during color decoder check. I will have to check grey scale with the Sypder when I have more time. Gamma C seems to help reduce the lobster look on the faces.
Sharpness does seem very good, and the lack of DI makes the projector so bright in certain scenes my eyes hurt on my 106inch greywolf, which is good....
I haven't seen the Panny, the Sony, or the Mitsu, but I'm seriously wondering if this projector was worth the extra money....

Rick

millerwill

04-12-07, 12:50 AM

If the fan is very loud, then your unit is defective.

drapp1952

04-12-07, 12:54 AM

Mine has a clear shading problem on the far right image with the pj mounted upright. Otherwise, I was extremely impressed by the black level and contrast, and haven't seen artificial-looking colors or added grain. The fan noise is louder than the Pearl by about double, but low in pitch and not intrusive for me.

Dan

jasonDono

04-12-07, 08:25 AM

I had to vote below expectation. Here's my post from the owner's thread:

Got mine last Friday. Had a few people over that night that were pretty familiar with my previous projectors, 7205 and Mits HD1000u. We watched Casino Royale on Blu Ray. The picture looked great but not appreciably better than the Mits or Infocus. Nobody said "Wow" or "Nice upgrade." My wife said something to the effect of "This is what you've been obsessing about?" Personally, i felt the same way. The image is a little better, but it is incremental for me. I've since thrown on some of the standard scenes, such as the prison cell in Batman Begins, and the opening to ROTS. Yes there is a little more detail on the walls and in space scenes you can see more stars, but when it comes down to it, does it really matter? It REALLY MATTERED over the last 5 months when i was reading about it every day, but in actual use, not so much.

Don't get me wrong, it throws a gorgeous picture, but without a side by side, it's not appreciable better than my previous projectors. I have good light control, but I do have a white ceiling and light back wall.I am projecting onto a 110" Firehawk from about 13.5 feet.

I don’t seem to have the bright corners issue, though this might be mitigated because of reflections.

My convergence is excellent, red is off about a ¼ pixel vertically and blue about 1/8. I had to shift red horizontal a tick to get it to its best.

The fan noise in normal mode is very quiet. I have to get within two feet to hear it at all. When I first turned it on, I thought something was wrong because I couldn’t hear anything. In high mode it is not that loud but I don’t like the pitch.

It is very bright, I measured 531 lumens from 13.5 feet at 110” diagonal. 615 in bright mode.

I thought I was having trouble with reds, but it was just a couple of shows in a row where there was an inordinate amount of orange in them. I find the colors quite pleasing and the "oversaturation" is not a problem for me at all. I can stop reading about the Radiance now.

We will be buying a house in the next year and I'm hoping to have a dedicated room with dark walls and ceiling and hope that this will make a noticeable improvement, but I doubt it will be all that significant to me. It seems that spending hours and hours and hours reading about this hobby on AVS has not made me a videophile. I know that I will be happy with this projector until it breaks down. This experience has completely killed my upgrade bug. If I had it to do over, I probably would have just stayed with my Mits. That being said, the price was probably worth the peace of mind I will now have for years knowing that I can't really do much better.

I am going to buy the Mack warranty. What a deal. Two bulb replacements in the first three years plus three extra years of Warranty coverage. I go through about 1 bulb every year, at $400 a bulb that will save me $500 and I get the three year warranty thrown in. It feels like stealing.

Jason

Rob Tomlin

04-12-07, 11:01 AM

Thanks for posting your opinions Jason.....and for reminding me that I need to purchase that Mack warranty as well! :)

jasonDono

04-12-07, 11:07 AM

Thanks for posting your opinions Jason.....and for reminding me that I need to purchase that Mack warranty as well! :)
You're welcome! The Mack Warranty really is amazing. Thanks to you for all you have done for this community. Enjoy your RS1!

Rob Tomlin

04-12-07, 11:16 AM

You're welcome! The Mack Warranty really is amazing. Thanks to you for all you have done for this community. Enjoy your RS1!

Jason, just to follow up, I appreciate the fact that you can vote "below expectations", yet do so in a professional, objective way with your post. You indicated exactly why you felt this way without being overly emotional about it.

I guess my point is that compared to another recently started thread:rolleyes: your post proves that people can be professional and courteous when posting less than rave reviews about the RS1.

Anyway, it looks like your unit is similar to mine in terms of no real issue with bright corners, excellent convergence, and good brightness.

One last question for you: although you might not have upgraded from your Mits to the RS1 if you had it to do over again, if you didn't already own the Mits, which would you buy between the two (at the RS1 pre-buy price)?

Catdaddy67

04-12-07, 11:24 AM

Very nice post, Jason.

I hope that as you spend more time for it, something clicks for you that will make you notice a more significant difference. Since you are running a firehawk setup, I might suggest gamma c. It seems to have a negative stigma attached to it, but it appears to add a lot of pop to my images.

You might also try it with gamma c, and a brightness adjust of -2 or -3 if the black levels get too elevated, even with your firehawk. The brightness adjusts also help mitigate the pervasiveness of the film grain that is very evident at dark scenes with gamma c.

I hope the PJ comes around for you like it does for many of us, sooner than later. 8)

jasonDono

04-12-07, 11:31 AM

Jason, just to follow up, I appreciate the fact that you can vote "below expectations", yet do so in a professional, objective way with your post. You indicated exactly why you felt this way without being overly emotional about it.

I guess my point is that compared to another recently started thread:rolleyes: your post proves that people can be professional and courteous when posting less than rave reviews about the RS1.

Anyway, it looks like your unit is similar to mine in terms of no real issue with bright corners, excellent convergence, and good brightness.

One last question for you: although you might not have upgraded from your Mits to the RS1 if you had it to do over again, if you didn't already own the Mits, which would you buy between the two (at the RS1 pre-buy price)?

Thanks for your kind words. I was a little reluctant to post, but I thought people who were on the fence about upgrading would find my POV helpful. Especially those who depend on the WAF! My deal with my wife was that if she thought it was a worthwhile upgrade then we would pay for it out of our community funds, if not I would pay for it out of my personal stash. Well, my personal stash has been seriously depleted!

I'm quite happy knowing that I have the "best" out there. It's kind of pathetic, but knowing that there are things that I can't see but that others do gives me some peace of mind. that and knowing that any advances in the near future would only be incremental will allow me to be much less obsessive, which is how I would describe my approach to this hobby over the last 4 years. Before this I was obsessed with computers, until I stopped noticing the benefits of my "upgrades." What will be my next hobby? Anybody know anything about cars? :o
My advice to those new to front projection would be to buy the RS1 and stop reading this part of the forum.
I haven't even clicked on that other thread I think you are refering to. That's just self-abuse for RS1 owners.