Many RS1 owners and enthusiasts are upgrading from another digital projector. At the same time, many seem to be demanding/expecting very high performance from the RS1. How does the current state of digital projectors stack up against a decent CRT projector?

I get the feeling that many CRT owners would still say that CRT has yet to be beat. I'm not so sure (I'm a CRT owner myself who has ordered an RS1). With the exception of a G90 stack (for which we already have a comparison), do the overall PQ benefits (let's exclude the setup/convergence hassles of a CRT for the time being) of the RS1 top your average (but decent ) CRT?

It's getting harder and harder to compare a CRT to a Digital. Many CRT users over the last few years have converted! So finding a well kept one isn't that easy.

I haven't done a side by side with the G90 but I'm pretty confident of the results. I can break it into 5 categories and then estimate how many out of 10 average people would choose the RS1.

Form factor
10 of 10 would choose RS1

Usability and Maintance
10 of 10 would choose RS1

Picture Quality
9 of 10 would choose RS1...Possibly 10 of 10

Price
10 of 10 would choose RS1

Ability to get it fixed if it breaks
10 of 10 would choose RS1

I've seen the RS1 in my theater on my screen. There are some things the RS1 does better. It is sharper, although shading is an issue, full field uniformity is superior to my system. The RS1 ,likely due to the subtle resolution superiority ,has a look of greater detail in fine gradations of color in small details, although my high frequency chroma roll off of my Faroudja processor could be partially responsible( eg Kongs facial scars have several different colors within them not visible on my system).It does not appear to have as 3D an image as my set up top to bottom, it has much poorer low APL performance and has more color fringing due to panel errors compared to my well set up and converged CRTs.Overall I felt that the colors particularly reds were superior on my CRT( relatively orange looking on the RS1).It is a fantastric projector, however, and at least in my experience, I would choose it over a Ruby,Pearl,Qualia,or 11S1.

I therefore voted that it was on par with a 9" CRT but I personally would still choose a G90 over it as a preference but could easily undertand the opposite position.

Art

It's getting harder and harder to compare a CRT to a Digital. Many CRT users over the last few years have converted! So finding a well kept one isn't that easy.

I haven't done a side by side with the G90 but I'm pretty confident of the results. I can break it into 5 categories and then estimate how many out of 10 average people would choose the RS1.

Form factor
10 of 10 would choose RS1

Usability and Maintance
10 of 10 would choose RS1

Picture Quality
9 of 10 would choose RS1...Possibly 10 of 10

Price
10 of 10 would choose RS1

Ability to get it fixed if it breaks
10 of 10 would choose RS1
I'm not a CRT guy but were you able to keep a straight face when you posted that "unbiased" analysis?

I wanted to laugh but actually I'm serious. I'll put money it.

of course my numbers might be slightly off if the 10 people are from the CRT forum but I stated "average" people. Not people that are willing to love CRT at all costs :)

Unfortunately, I never had the opportunity to see a G90, and I've been very lucky that my 8" Runco has been working well and throws an impressive picture, but between only getting 233 lumens and being a sucker for image punch and color saturation, I find myself wanting more.

I know that one shouldn't judge a projector by screenshots, but there was one of the RS1 displaying King Kong that was very telling for me: in the scene where Jack Black is crossing the street (making off with his investor's film), the various buildings in the street were distinctly different colors, while on my projector the differences were so suble that they were essentially one color.

So I guess I'm hoping that a G90 is much better than my projector - which would mean the RS1 is truly a step up.

I'm abstaining from voting because I don't think it can be simplified into a one is better than the other sort of comparison. I love the contrast on the RS1 but I think it can still be better and I think a CRT can be setup to have better contrast than the RS1. I almost voted for "better than 8" CRT", but I think even an 8" CRT probably has better on/off contrast too. When I think of the PQ of a CRT the thing that jumps out is the on/off contrast and near perfect blacks rather than it's weaknesses such as lower resolution, uniformity, lower ANSI CR, etc. which is why I think on/off contrast is an important factor in the comparison. In fact I was admiring the black level on a cheapo direct view TV today. If however, the poll were worded, "which one would buy today" then it would be a slam dunk for the RS1

I wanted to laugh but actually I'm serious. I'll put money it.

of course my numbers might be slightly off if the 10 people are from the CRT forum but I stated "average" people. Not people that are willing to love CRT at all costs :)

I'll do this test myself soon... I'll find 10 people who couldn't really careless about projectors... have them view 9" CRT to the RS1, then just for kicks a blended 9" CRT setup... I'm willing to bet your numbers are exaggerated in some respects.

Price
10 of 10 would choose RS1


I don't get this one... why would someone choose to spend more money? Your average 9"er can be had for less than a new RS1

I don't get this one... why would someone choose to spend more money? Your average 9"er can be had for less than a new RS1

Really? with processor and everything? Do you get a 2 year warranty with that?

In my opinion the RS1 ( and HD1 ) betters a CRT in most areas that really count.

Very expensive to run CRT is still better in certain areas like black level and limitless tweaking options and a higer SPL. :)

Lets face it a stack of G90 with top of the line VP on a very large mid gain screen does beat the JVC in a HT setup that is a bit outside for what the JVC was designed for.
JVC still managed to hold it's own out of the box against a top tier HT tweaked to near perfection.

Thanks to this poll and its vote casters, we all can sleep better.

Its really great that every voter has done a direct and proper a/b instead of just voting whatever he/she has or based on some memory. After all, it realy realy realy is hard to find a properly maintained CR. The oil filters and tires are really really hard to find now. Mine wont go into reverse anymore but on level ground and turning left it really still outperforms the other especially if the other is going up hill.

Really? with processor and everything? Do you get a 2 year warranty with that?

I'm sure you could grab a Lumagen HDP for not that much, add that to a second hand 9" crt, can be a bargain. But you have me beat on the 2 year warranty, you have to buy from someone who does it for a living to offer that level of support (thanks Curt and Tim ;)) although I haven't had to pay for any repairs in the last 18 months, only postage costs, and most common problems you could almost service yourself.

In any case, doesn't matter.. I'm preaching to the wrong crowd in here.

I just hope the HD1 I have on order does 60% as well as my blend, then I'll be happy.

Even with the limitations of the RS-1 and the fact an external VP is mandatory due to these limitations I'd still throw down for the better overall image, form factor, reliability etc provided by current digitals. To compare the RS-1 with the best possible CRT solution is rather unfair but in that battle there are other digitals more than able to step up.

BTW. My CRT has most of the extreme MP mods and easily out performs a Sony G90.

I'll put up in a direct RS1 comparison as soon as I get an HDMI input card for the CRT from Moome next month and let the viewers choose. I'll post the results. Right now I'd have to use analog inputs and sources.

It really is irrelevant which wins. Since if you bought the RS1, that is the best, clearly. And if you own a good CRT, then the RS1 considering everything simply is not as film like also given the last time you were at a good movie theater was in 1967.

BTW. If I were starting out today, the only sane choice is to buy digital providing one can live with rapidly buying the best in the masses opinions and then having something better come along in 6 months. I know several here who will sell their RS1s in 4 months so they don't take a bath and have the cash to buy the net greatest for the money.Cedia is 5 months, 3 weeks away.

Mark Haflich,

I have read a lot of your posts and you very rarely contribute anything of meaning to the threads you address..... And since you have all the GREAT MP MODS (Which is mostly Vapor Ware & BS just like his now defunct 1292 "Stick A Fork It It It's Done" Streaking fix) lets bow down and kiss your feet!!! All you do is post garbage to keep your post count high!! I knew whoever was going to post something about comparing the RS-1 To the glorious ancient technology called CRT was going to take a good A$$ ripping..... Let the ones of us that are happy with our RS-1's enjoy them..... Glad I got that off my chest... Flame Away!!!

Richard

Richard, no offense but you have no idea what you're talking about if you think Mike's mods to the 9500 are vaporware. I've seen them side by side... SIGNIFICANT difference. You can bitch about the 1292 streaking fix, but the Ehome mods are in an entirely different class.

Mark's original point was very valid... how many of the people voting have a legitimate powerhouse CRT AND have/have seen an RS1? The number is pretty freaking small I suspect. So I don't know that I would take anything in this poll to be legitimate.

And Tryg... come on buddy. Let's not let your RS1 enthusiasm COMPLETELY destroy your objectivity. Those numbers are just plain silly.

When I get a RS1 I would be happy to bring it over to anyone's house in the Seattle area with what they consider a world class CRT setup. April? This should be fun and interesting for all!

The G90 can be tweaked all you want, moded all you want, ISFd, $20,000 worth of processors....whatever.

I'll bring a new, out of the box RS1 without any adjustments. :)

If there is anyone in the Seattle area that has such a Super CRT system please PM me. I will set this thing up.

Oooooohhhh........the gauntlet is thrown:D!!!!!

If you were in CT I'd take you up ;)

I have not seen the RS1 in person, so I have not voted here but the results of this poll are ridiculous. (And after 7 years of being on this forum, I'm finally in agreement with Tryg.)

The Sony Pearl would blow away most CRTs. I've seen the G90. I've used Barco 1209s for ten years now. I've seen what many have considered the best of the best of the custom built stuff and you are just kidding yourself if you think those projectors perform as well as one of these new 1080p LCOS projectors. (Those who voted for the 8" CRT are simply blind or in denial.)

CRT has one advantage and only one advantage and that is absolute black level. For EVERYTHING else, it falls short. And that absolute black level comes at a price - non-linearity. William Phelps calibrates G90's to no more than 10,000:1 because of this non-linearity. It is hard to get a CRT to go from complete black to very dark gray without some sort of abrupt level shift. So yes you can get a CRT to go completely black but getting it to transition from that state is not easy or repeatable.

As far as resolution goes, getting 1080p out of even the most tweaked out Electrohome or modified G90 or custom one-of-kind-you-can't-tell-me-I-don't-have-1080p-because-my-crt-is-best, is very difficult if not impossible. (You don't need to answer to this comment; just show me a 1 pixel by 1 pixel checkerboard to prove me wrong. If you can afford a G90 you can afford a digital camera to document your superCRT's's performance.)

Once again. I haven't voted, but anyone reading this poll who's not familiar with projectors should ignore the results up to this point in time. I try not to state opinion as fact, but this is an exception - the results are wrong.

-Mr. Wigggles

Ps. I will do a one-to-one swap for a RS1 with a good condition Barco 1209 if anyone wants one.

Headhunterex. I'm not trashing the RS1. I am trashing this poll. It is meaningless. Just like the statement by one here saying that it is hard to find a properly maintained CRT. And you are clueless, absolutly clueless about the mods performed on my projector. My point in mentioning them is that my comparisons are not to a stock good CRT. The mods raise it to a much higher level and that wil be the basis on my comparisons. I have more RS1s coming and when I fulfill my orders, I wil play with one directly against my CRT. I need an HDMI input on my CRT to level the playing field or comparisons will be difficult and somewhat meaningless. Whatever the result, it will make no difference. If I were starting today, I woud buy a digital. Sorry for making you read my dribble. Tell you what. Put me on your ignore list ike I have placed you on mine. Have a good life you jerk.

When I get a RS1 I would be happy to bring it over to anyone's house in the Seattle area with what they consider a world class CRT setup. April? This should be fun and interesting for all!
As a newb, I feel that such a shoot-out could be very interesting. It would also go a long way toward convincing myself and others on the bench, as to which arena we should toss our money.
Just one suggestion, and one question.
I suggest using a garden variety CRT in about the same price range as the RS1. In short one any of us with moderate means may purchase, such as a Barco or Electrohomme 9"CRT.
Question: How long will you run these PJ's in order to show longevity? Melt down? I'm interested in my next purchase lasting a few years.
Just so you know, I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm a club member here, and also at Curt's forum. Like to see a fair comparison of both technologies.
Tony

I'd say it's on par with 9", I raise a glass to JVS on this unit. The future looks bright oh wait that's the light cannon :)....

The poll doesn't mention AC or LC CRT, but I'd say the RS1 is better than the 8" AC CRTs and possibly better than 8" LC CRTs (I've not seen one of those yet, that's why I'm guessing), but as an overall package, it's not better than a G90/9500 Ultra (though I did think it had a similar 'look' in some scenes), but that's just from memory and not back to back viewings of various CRTs and the one viewing I have had of the HD1.

The poll is incomplete IMHO and I doubt many here have seen some well set up CRTs (especially 9" ones) to make an educated choice in the poll, in just the same way most CRT owners on that forum are unlikely to have seen a well set up digital.

Gary

Headhunterex. I'm not trashing the RS1. I am trashing this poll. It is meaningless.
Then why did you vote?

Have you done a proper A/B?

-Mr. Wigggles

Hey guys, I apologize for causing all this controversy. I'm just a CRT owner who is interested in trading up and it sounded like the RS1 might be the ticket. All comparisons that I've read involved other digital projectors or a G90 stack (Art's - which I know my Runco IDP-980 (8") wouldn't hold a candle to).

I still do appreciate my CRT for its natural, fairly detailed image, but I also see its flaws and would prefer brighter, vibrant colors. I've only seen a handful of digital projectors (over the course of the past 7 or 8 years) and most of them looked so unlike film I wouldn't have considered one... until I saw a Ruby, which impressed me. Having used my current (and only) CRT for 10 years, I wanted to trade up to something that would satisfy me for a while and I was advised to wait for something brighter - which I thought was addressed by the RS1.

No. I haven't done the side by side I want to do. But I have spent about 5 hours with an RS1 and god knows how many hours with my CRT. My CRT does 1200p. It is really tricked up. I think the G17 lenses on my machine are at least a tad better than the zoom on an RS1 or Ruby. Convergence is better than any three chipper I have seen. The mods to my video input module and neck boards have really improved gray scale linearity, spot tightness, the ability to crank drive without blooming etc. On balance, whie the RS! is brighter, I THINK my machine is better. Its an informed judgment call. More info and better comparisons and I could of course change my mind. I am hiding nothing. I expect better of you Mr. Wigggles because I know you are better than your last two posts. Peace my friend.

Ian. No problem. I think the RS1 would beat most CRTs. A ten year old machine without the utilization of better chips now available etc. Discussion here for the most part is valuable. Attacking someone, however, is out of bounds. You didn't do that.

Don. Before you drink any more, it is JVC not JVS. :) BTW. Don is a friend of mine. I am just joshing him.

I wanted to laugh but actually I'm serious. I'll put money it.

of course my numbers might be slightly off if the 10 people are from the CRT forum but I stated "average" people. Not people that are willing to love CRT at all costs :)


Despite the fact that I think I've been pretty level with my comments I'm not going to just let that comment fly. First average people have no relevance in this sort of discussion and you know it. Hell ,average people would say it was better simply if it were brighter. Love of the look of CRT is not the love at all costs not by any stretch. I've seen this comparison. I would not trade what I have for the RS1 the look of my G90s is superior IMO. This ,however, still doesn't mean that the RS1 isn't a great device. Like me I'd get upset by panel errors causing the fringing we saw here, I would not at all like to loose the more 3D look one gets with the G90 compared to the RS1 and given the choice betwen the RS1 and G90 I'd still take the G90 ( not to mention the RS1 is still gray in very dark scenes).

Tryg sometimes you say things that just ruin your credibility, if you care, and as a sales guy , I'd think you would. I wouldn't trust you as far as I could throw you with my money because of that. You seem to be reasonably bright but........... :(

Art

Art. With your money, he would be so heavy you couldn't lift him yet alone throw him. :)

Don and I know how expensive those fruit pizzas are.

How much is an RS1 ? i've red somewhere that AVS is making a deal on it ?

I like how J Mike Ferrara voted worse :D Your not still bitter about the Qualia thing are ya :) Sell it! get an RS. I'm thinking 8 times the CR might be an improvement. You could probably put some cash in your pocket too! :eek:

...and the fact an external VP is mandatory due to these limitations...
Wait, what? What limitations cause an external VP to be mandatory?

Tryg. Cut it out. Grow up. There is more to a projector than CR. The Qualia has much more light output and a much much much better lens. However, it is what two or three years old now? In a year, people will be trying to dump their RS1 for a new Sony bitching about the saturation, the misconvergence, whatever. Other people will enjoy their RS1 for many years to come. I would trade an RS1 for J. Mikes upgraded Qualia in an instant (Qualia owners pm me for a trade) despite the RS1 being better than a Qualia in many ways.

Chris. The colors on an RS1 are oversaturated and can not be made correct without an external VP such as the Lumagens or a CS2. Most people would not be bothered by the oversaturation. Some will.

1. I'm never going to growup....hopefully
2. This is my subtle ;) way of calling him out to explain himself on the choice. If he really thought that I have to wonder why he would have purchased the Qualia?
3. I wish I had one to trade you.

My old Marquee 8000 had better blacks than my Pearl.

When the CRT beam current turns off, there is NO LIGHT emitted from the projector.

An LCOS panel can't replicate that (even with a calibrated wire grid) due to polarization inconsistencies across the panel.

Unless you have gamma mods or an external scaler to customise the gamma, setting up a CRT for no light means you're losing shadow detail when it comes out of black. It's a compromise but I guess you at least have the choice. :)

Gary

Unless you have gamma mods or an external scaler to customise the gamma, setting up a CRT for no light means you're losing shadow detail when it comes out of black. It's a compromise but I guess you at least have the choice. :)

Gary
True the Moome gamma card allows this. Mine does not fade to total black but close. If it faded from very bright material like in Sin City or Cast Away you can see the screen after about two to three seconds or so.

Art

TIME TO GET YOUR DIAPERS CHANGED KIDDIES!
check out THE ORIGINAL QUESTION..it was if an average crt was as good as state of the art digital, excepting double, triple, and of course quad stacks. and very fancy ones. just answer the guys question

Art. It's Moome. I do have a gamma correction built into my MP5 transcoder (component to RGBHV). Plus a blue gamma correction which is part of the standard VIM on a 9500LC (this is needed for proper gray scale tracking). A stack improves the lumens by doubling them, something which is needed with a CRT set up with a screen the size of Art's. I hope all this is comstructive, that' s the intent.

Oh brother....just buy the damn projector YOU like better and be done with it already, geez:rolleyes:

Who gives a holy crap what others think about your theater or your projector. You paid for it, you watch it 99% of the time, you're the ONLY one that matters in the equation.

Stop all this petty bickering about whose schlong is bigger than whose.....my god:confused:

Poster's note: This is not directed at anyone in particular, so keep the flames to yourselves:D

Don't mind me. I'm PMS'ing:p (Projector Missing on a Ship)

:cool: I hate to post when I don't have experience in, but, comparing a Single RS-1 to a Single CRT is what is stated in the OP

Now Art I have seen photos of yours and Gary Burrell's systems (both CRT and on deck with gross amounts mods)

But after all the money spent on a CRT + Mods or even x2 for stacked, can you really tell my honestly that what the RS-1 offers for under $10k isn't worth a damn?

Now I will agree with the next CRT buff that they are not dead, but no means the choice of non-tweakers or people on that extreme side of hobbyists..

RS-1 owners would it be fair to say that the absolute blacks and flat (non 3-Dimesional issues) of LcOS be a drawback, even at a more resonable cost.

If you ask me, this whole discussion is comparison of apples to oranges.

~Bobby

RS-1 owners would it be fair to say that the absolute blacks and flat (non 3-Dimesional issues) of LcOS be a drawback, even at a more resonable cost.


you lost me there. I'd have to say no

Dang Dave! You were my hero until you backed off in your second post.

I agree... feel good about whatever technology you have! Front Projectionists are all brothers (and sisters) in a small family of crazies who love getting more from less.

(* Projector enjoying a Pacific Cruise as well *)

Dave if I may comment...mine is the biggest. :)

Yeah, my wife wishes!

Dang Dave! You were my hero until you backed off in your second post.....

That doesn't mean I didn't mean what I said, because I whole heartedly do. The very last thing I do on calibrations is ask the client to put on their favorite scene from DVD, BRD, etc. and tell me what THEY want changed to please them, not me and what my calibration numbers say. I tell them what I did so far is what some engineers in a lab created as the "standard", but feel free to be non-standard:D

Me personally, I like the calibrated image and am anal when I'm doing the calibration (ask my clients, they want to throw me out sometimes because I take too long:D), but I'm not performing the service for me, it's for them and we can't forget that.

Dave if I may comment...mine is the biggest. :)

Yeah, my wife wishes!

Yeah, but it's not bigger than Art's "Double Stack"!!! He should be in projector porn with that thing:eek:

I know he's got 18" total with his CRT's...that's pretty impressive. :)

My take on this is that if you already have a permanent, elaborate ceiling CRT installation, keep your projector, specially a 9", but also an 8" graphic grade high bandwidth projector -unless you want a much bigger screen.

If you are starting now, get an RS1. Regardless of the picture It makes no sense to ceiling mount a CRT projector any more.

:) But it would be quite OK to put it on the floor or a table? :)

:cool: I hate to post when I don't have experience in, but, comparing a Single RS-1 to a Single CRT is what is stated in the OP

Now Art I have seen photos of yours and Gary Burrell's systems (both CRT and on deck with gross amounts mods)

But after all the money spent on a CRT + Mods or even x2 for stacked, can you really tell my honestly that what the RS-1 offers for under $10k isn't worth a damn?

~Bobby

Bobby,
I won't argue with that. I bought and set up my CRTs before there were any 1080p devices for home use except 9" CRTs so consider that a bit in the mix.

I spent a ton to get what I have so dollars considered I got hammered but I've been watching and presenting images in my home for three years that have few rivals on the planet ,really, considering the rate of change we see !! :) I'm one of the few folks around who has seen the RS1 head to head against some of the best CRT. Each has it's advantages and I voted that way.

I think the RS1 is absolutlely incredible, I've said as much. Please don't let my enthusiasm that I still have for what I see on my screen diminish my very very positive impressions of the RS1 , not even considering the unbelievable price of this device. I've said as much and hold to it !! :)

PS I couldn't wait I watched Casino Royale on Blu Ray tonight !!!!!!!!!!!! :) :) :cool:

Art

Art. With your money, he would be so heavy you couldn't lift him yet alone throw him. :)

Don and I know how expensive those fruit pizzas are.

Tryg's a big boy so I thought that that added to the images a bit. :D

Art

Art. It's Moome.

Yea thanks ! :o

Art

Bobby,
I won't argue with that. I bought and set up my CRTs before there were any 1080p devices for home use except 9" CRTs so consider that a bit in the mix.

I spent a ton to get what I have so dollars considered I got hammered but I've been watching and presenting images in my home for three years that have few rivals on the planet ,really, considering the rate of change we see !! :) I'm one of the few folks around who has seen the RS1 head to head against some of the best CRT. Each has it's advantages and I voted that way.

I think the RS1 is absolutlely incredible, I've said as much. Please don't let my enthusiasm that I still have for what I see on my screen diminish my very very positive impressions of the RS1 , not even considering the unbelievable price of this device. I've said as much and hold to it !! :)

PS I couldn't wait I watched Casino Royale on Blu Ray tonight !!!!!!!!!!!! :) :) :cool:

Art

All I have to say is..............





























I couldn't be HAPPIER with my choice!!!!!! :D :D :D :D

RS WHAT??? :eek:

For those that voted CRT better, how many are basing their vote on the comparison of a stock RS1 to a pimped-out CRT?

Mark has mentioned custom MP mods to his CRT, and Art has mentioned a Moome mod (but it was unclear to me if he actually has one).

Is anybody who voted that way comparing stock-to-stock? Including external processors, etc?

I admit I haven't seen the RS1 in person so I based my vote on several Pearls I saw setup. I preferred the image from my G70. It just seemed to have more depth and overall I just prefered th picture from my G70. I know these comparisons are for the Pearl but everyone says the 2 are pretty close. From what I've read the RS1 is not "leaps and bounds" better than the Pearl and it would take a significantly better picture before I would replace the G70. If I didn't have the G70 I wouldn't hesitate to purchase the Pearl or the RS1 and would be very happy with either.

Perhaps instead of starting a generic poll I should have just started a thread seeking advice for my current situation, so I’m going to selfishly ask for it now.

I have a Runco IDP-980 CRT. It’s basically the same as a NEC 9PGExtra I believe. I run SD scaled up to 720p and it looks very good. I run all HD sources at 1080i (my projector can’t do 1080p). I get 6.75 fl (or 233 lumens) on an 8’ wide screen in a pitch black room.

Yes, I get great blacks, but I don’t get good shadow detail (coming out of black the projector is weak). If I adjust to see more shadow detail, black suffers, contrast and image depth suffers. Yes, it’s been professionally calibrated and it’s just not capable of a perfect gray scale. Sure enough, the HD-DVDs or BDs that get high PQ ratings yet leave me scratching my head are all darker films (Van Helsing is an example). I’ve seen color detail in screenshots that I cannot see on my screen (e.g. a city scene where buildings in the background are different colors can look like the same color on my screen).

Bright scenes look very satisfying. Lower lit scenes do not. I prefer my 50” plasma for its vibrant colors. In comparison my CRT can look dull (i.e. if you were crazy enough to run from room to room comparing).

The projector is loud. I’ve lived with this for 10 years without a hush box, and just told myself that one day I’ll have a new projector that will be quieter.

My geometry isn’t perfect. On pans I can see a slight wave on the left side.

Though it’s not immediately perceptible, I believe my image is a lot brighter in the center than on the sides.

I can’t use HDMI (my scaler doesn’t accept it) so I can’t scale up SD to 1080 with, say, the Toshiba HD-DVD player.

My CRT doesn’t require constant tweaking. Heck, even the convergence is so stable, that this aspect plays no role in motivating me to get a digital.

I’ve realized that if I had to choose between resolution and color saturation (i.e. vivid colors) I think I would choose the latter. Don’t get me wrong, I own over 150 HD discs now and I love the detail, but I’m a sucker for pretty colors. I even purchased Scooby Doo because Alan Gouger recommended it on the basis of it being colorful (there, I said it!).

Most of the times I’ve seen DLP, I found it overly sharp or processed and prefer a more film-like look. I saw a Ruby briefly and thought it looked excellent and revealed more than my projector in darker scenes.

I’d love to know I could play games in my theater without worrying about burn in (doesn’t help that the only other HD display I have is a plasma).

Yes, I’ve had the itch to upgrade for a while now – I’ve just been waiting for it to make sense. I find it hard to even watch SD anymore and I somehow think that with a new projector, I might be able to breathe some life into my SD collection (better scaling, brighter colors). Perhaps I’m just fooling myself here. 

It should be said that I’m a fairly critical viewer. I think half the time I use my theater I’m simply checking out a transfer or surfing around movies that I’ve already seen, enjoying the presentation.

Yes, it would ideal if I could audition this projector before committing to a purchase and I am going to try and do that. I guess I was just very convinced that this was a strong enough upgrade that it might not be necessary – although this thread certainly has me reconsidering.

Depending on the hours on your tubes (any wear or burn?) have it dialed in again. I have no idea when it was done before. It seems as it needs to be dialed in again. You can always buy a dpj and install it underneath the PG (don't sell it yet, there is very little money in it anyway). That is what I have done. I watch movies exclusively with my XG.

:) But it would be quite OK to put it on the floor or a table? :)

Well, in Europe, in those old 10,000sf Parisian apartments and hotels particuliers with 10' to 15' ceilings and painted art work every where, including on the ceilings, mounting a projector on the ceiling has never been an option. It would look rather cheap and criminal. Overseas I like screens on legs, not hanging on a wall, and projectors either on the floor, on a table, or better, attached to a stainless steel truss. I have a truss and I love it. It looks high tech and it is portable, like the T-legged screen. A truss is the best option if one has high ceilings, like at the CES.

Now today with light weight digital projectors, an other option is to use one of those video cart with an ajustable 55" top shelf, and put all your sources on the lower shelf, all in the back, with only the audio processor and the amplifiers below the screen in the front. No video switching, no more useless video scaler, no video guru, no carpenter, no ISF this and that... I love it..

So if I am correct, and forgive me for not reading every post, out of all the people that have opinions on this, only one of them, Art, has actually done a comparison. Did I guess that right?

As for me, I vote the RS1 because a friend of a friend of my friend saw a Marantz S3, and his friend told him the S3 looked almost as good as the Pearl he saw at his friends, and his friend told him the Pearl was better than the CRT he used to have. And my RS1 looks a LOT better than the S3 so common sense dictates it must stomp all over a CRT.

Q,

Someone told me their friend read that they saw someone who was with Tryg and reported to a forum that was read here by and AVS member and posted in the over 3k forum that he too has compared a digital against a CRT.

But I think it's just a rumor :)

"When the CRT beam current turns off, there is NO LIGHT emitted from the projector.

An LCOS panel can't replicate that (even with a calibrated wire grid) due to polarization inconsistencies across the panel."

Will be interesting to see what happens if/when LEDs get bright enough to replace bulbs. Those could simply turn off in full FTB scenes.

Shawn

Chris. The colors on an RS1 are oversaturated and can not be made correct without an external VP such as the Lumagens or a CS2. Most people would not be bothered by the oversaturation. Some will.
Ah, okay. Once again, mr machine was perhaps exaggerating a deficiency in the RS-1. Unless it's really egregious (which doesn't appear to be the case from numerous reports/reviews), I can't imagine that I'd notice or care.

Thanks for the info.

No. I haven't done the side by side I want to do. But I have spent about 5 hours with an RS1 and god knows how many hours with my CRT. My CRT does 1200p. It is really tricked up. I think the G17 lenses on my machine are at least a tad better than the zoom on an RS1 or Ruby. Convergence is better than any three chipper I have seen. The mods to my video input module and neck boards have really improved gray scale linearity, spot tightness, the ability to crank drive without blooming etc. On balance, whie the RS! is brighter, I THINK my machine is better. Its an informed judgment call. More info and better comparisons and I could of course change my mind. I am hiding nothing. I expect better of you Mr. Wigggles because I know you are better than your last two posts. Peace my friend.
You complained that others haven't done a proper A/B and you stated you didn't like the poll. I don't think you should have voted. I expect better from you.

The question is a very general question indeed. And if you are going to answer you should give a general answer.

Ian said the words "average CRT" multiple times in his original post not "can your super-duper tricked up rig beat the RS1?" He is talking about general reproducible results. Your results which I have no access to (I would still love to see a 1 pixel by 1 pixel checkerboard) are not easily reproduced.

And to state "I'm one HDMI input board away from a fair fight with an RS1." is not a valid rationale. We are not talking about potential; Ian is talking about general results.

That's realm we are working with here. If you think the realm is too general don't participate in the poll.

-Mr. Wigggles

MrWiggles said to Mark:


I expect better from you.
That's downright touching.

Mark, out of curiosity, have you sprayed that special anti-static stuff that you said makes your cables sound so different (when you spray it on them) on your souped up CRT and does it make it look better? I'm trying to downgrade MrWiggles expectations.

QQ,

Mark should be given credit for the Hallmark Moment. I was just repeating his words.

Well, now that you mention the "special spray", that changes everything and we are in a whole new ball game. I had no idea Mark still had a can of the "special spray"; the EPA took it off the market a couple years ago for CFC reasons. I thought all the remaining cans were purposely destroyed. And because no non-CFC replacemnt exists yet, no "special spray" was still on the market. Well, I stand corrected.

QQ, I think you are trying to tell me that we have one or more of the exotic $20,000+ guys answering this poll. That could explain the results.

-Mr. Wigggles

Ah, now I get it, that's what I get for my constant bad habit of only reading the posts from some people instead of the entire thread. So Mark said it first, OK. Your comment didn't fit so I had to throw a little sarcasm in. As for the results, isn't it obvious? When ever there is a thread like this all the guys from the CRT forum start popping in. They're getting more and more desperate over there. It's sort of sad to see, they're like a dying race.

Tryg - Where can I send the money for your eye test ???

Or maybe you have NEVER actually seen an RS1.

The reason I doubt you is that I have, and many who own them are now starting to give the usual complaints list................

The lamp I was worried was going to be an issue as it appeared to be priced rather cheap............And sure enough lamp and panel errors are both reported by several OWNERS......

I was lucky to see an HD1 (UK Version) prior to release - I think its a great little machine, the scaler is excellent, the picture is very good when compared with many OTHER DIGITALS, but for me the quick to degrade lamp, uniformity issues, conv. issues, and several others are too much for me to consider a swop from CRT...........

I would say anyone with a digital looking for an upgrade then its a great unit.

Tryg - You have not helped sales by your outrageous statement, your were better of not saying anything..............

OH! and if you actually believe what you wrote - then your not really worth any of my time.

YES im a CRT owner, YES I work with Digital projectors daily, NO I would not swop my CRT for one, BUT YES I would tell customers what a great unit it is if it suited their needs...........

I picked CRT looks best, but I'm a fiend for long held blackouts. There's something to be said for that claustrophobic, suffocating feeling when your theatre goes black in the middle of a movie...

I'm sure if I had to, I could suffer with an RS1 ;)

The reason I doubt you is that I have, and many who own them are now starting to give the usual complaints list................
While I know it's hard to keep your hatred of digital in check, try for just one second to control it and embrace reason. If a new CRT projector came out tomorrow, and hundreds of people on this forum bought one, would you care to guess how long it would take before they had found 101 imperfections and or/issues to discuss? Would the fact that such issues were discussed mean there was something wrong with said projector?

But EVERY single fricken time a new digital projector comes out a bunch of peons in the CRT forum start posting thread like "see how they are discovering all these horrible things" and then without exception quote a couple of people out of context while ignoring the fact that almost everyone is thrilled with the projector.

Let's take the usual "complaints list":

1. Bulbs lose brightness.

2. Panels do not have PERFECT convergence.

3. This PJ seems to have slightly brighter corners that most people cannot notice unless watching for them on a completely black screen.

None of those things seem to be stopping it from creating an unbelievable picture and most people here seem thrilled with the PJ. A similar list of complaints could be created for every CRT projector, all of which suffer from certain weaknesses.

Ah, now I get it, that's what I get for my constant bad habit of only reading the posts from some people instead of the entire thread. So Mark said it first, OK. Your comment didn't fit so I had to throw a little sarcasm in. As for the results, isn't it obvious? When ever there is a thread like this all the guys from the CRT forum start popping in. They're getting more and more desperate over there. It's sort of sad to see, they're like a dying race.

So only digital guys are allowed to respond to a thread about digital vs CRT ?

Art

So only digital guys are allowed to respond to a thread about digital vs CRT ?

Art
Of course not Art, but if their all going to run over here and vote, the least I can do is rile them up a bit :D. Seriously though, I think folks in this forum are nowhere as "religious" and most won't even bother voting. So the voting will be skewed by the vocal minority. I'm not saying that as a dig, it's the way ALL surveys work.

No different than the polls which would lead you to believe that 50% of people have serious issue with DLP rainbows when in reality it's much less.

Of course not Art, but if their all going to run over here and vote, the least I can do is rile them up a bit :D. Seriously though, I think folks in this forum are nowhere as "religious" and most won't even bother voting. So the voting will be skewed by the vocal minority. I'm not saying that as a dig, it's the way ALL surveys work.

No different than the polls which would lead you to believe that 50% of people have serious issue with DLP rainbows when in reality it's much less.

Got it ! But consider this, I'd be willing to bet that there is only a very tiny minority on this forum that has ever even seen a well set up FP CRT. A nice CRT throws a picture that has some very fine qualites including superior low APL reproduction. They shouldn't just be dismissed because it is an old technology any more than the CRT guys should dismiss the digitals without getting a nice demo. It is too easy to glom onto a weakness that is stated over and over that may make only a tiny difference in the overall picture quality in watching movies ( full field white uniformity issues of CRTs, occasional banding of DLP for example).

As you know ,the RS1 is not for me but trust me the light output, ANSI contrast, sharpness and color of the 3 chip DLPs well could be despite the lower sequential contrast compared to CRT. For me it's a balance scale and the side with all of those things weighs heavy ! :)

Art

.. but if their all going to run over here and vote, the least I can do is rile them up a bit :D. Seriously though, I think folks in this forum are nowhere as "religious" and most won't even bother voting. So the voting will be skewed by the vocal minority. I'm not saying that as a dig, it's the way ALL surveys work.

No different than the polls which would lead you to believe that 50% of people have serious issue with DLP rainbows when in reality it's much less.

When you and Tryg constantly run over CRT forum and provoke what is not called for then be prepared for a little tease eventhough I see no regular CRTers have spoiled the poll by any measure.

Got it ! But consider this, I'd be willing to bet that there is only a tiny minority on this forum that has ever seen a well set up FP CRT.
I don't disagree but based on the constant statements I read from many in the CRT forum I suspect the same is true of many CRT owners and digital. There are too many statements about how horrible digital are, that are so over the top that they have either never seen a well set up digital or are incapable of being objective. As always, I'll qualify my comments by saying they are directed only at some. Lots of folks over there are even handed and will say "gee, it looked quite good, I still prefer my CRT though".

I don't disagree but based on the constant statements I read from many in the CRT forum I suspect the same is true of many CRT owners and digital. There are too many statements about how horrible digital are, that are so over the top that they have either never seen a well set up digital or just hate digital so much they are incapable of being objective. As always, I'll qualify my comments by saying they are directed only at some. Lots of folks over there are even handed and will say "gee, it looked quite good, I still prefer my CRT though".

I was typing an edit to my post above as you were responding. I agree !

Art

Got it ! But consider this, I'd be willing to bet that there is only a very tiny minority on this forum that has ever even seen a well set up FP CRT.
...
Art

Then the poll question should have been: "Does the RS-1 beat the tiny minority of CRTs that are actually set-up correctly?"

-Mr. Wigggles

Ps. Yes, I am postulating that the tiny minority of people is directly proportional to the tiny minority of CRTs.

Then the poll question should have been: "Does the RS-1 beat the tiny minority of CRTs that are actually set-up correctly."

-Mr. Wigggles
Oh come on ! :rolleyes: CRTs require more work to set up,common knowledge. This doesn't diminish a thing. They have been around as FP devices for three decades and most have never been given the care to look good. I've had people in my theater who say oh yea my grandfather had one of those until I turn it on and they see it then even the teens and twenty somethings change their tune. They have dismissed CRT capability as a prejudgement.

I bet no one who responded to that poll would say that they expected their response to be comparing an RS1 to a poorly set up CRT.

Art

This is a great thread! I especially like the Alan recommended Scooby Doo. ;)

If you like colors I know where you can get an RS1 :)

I like CRTs too. The key to a good CRT theater is mom's freshly baked cookies. Yummy! :)

Ah, okay. Once again, mr machine was perhaps exaggerating a deficiency in the RS-1. Unless it's really egregious (which doesn't appear to be the case from numerous reports/reviews), I can't imagine that I'd notice or care.

Thanks for the info.


No, its not needed for just color, but also gamma ,overscan and no AR control so a VP needed for CIH

What's the problem with the gamma?

Gary

.............., no ISF this and that... I love it..

Blasphemer:mad::D:p;)!!!!!!!!

This is a great thread! I especially like the Alan recommended Scooby Doo. ;)

If you like colors I know where you can get an RS1 :)

I like CRTs too. The key to a good CRT theater is mom's freshly baked cookies. Yummy! :)

LOL. Or a nice hottie wife like mine that I get to hop in bed with after watching a nice HD DVD on my freshly Ken Whitcomb calibrated STACK of G90's!!!!!! :D ;)

Cliffy

Got it ! But consider this, I'd be willing to bet that there is only a very tiny minority on this forum that has ever even seen a well set up FP CRT. A nice CRT throws a picture that has some very fine qualites including superior low APL reproduction. They shouldn't just be dismissed because it is an old technology any more than the CRT guys should dismiss the digitals without getting a nice demo. It is too easy to glom onto a weakness that is stated over and over that may make only a tiny difference in the overall picture quality in watching movies ( full field white uniformity issues of CRTs, occasional banding of DLP for example).

As you know ,the RS1 is not for me but trust me the light output, ANSI contrast, sharpness and color of the 3 chip DLPs well could be despite the lower sequential contrast compared to CRT. For me it's a balance scale and the side with all of those things weighs heavy ! :)

Art

This is very true. Even though a pretty damn good majority of CRT owners DO NOT get their CRT's professionaly calibrated.

Getting your CRT tweaked perfect is an absolute necessity. At the same time though, a lot of CRT owners get into the hobby because of the tweaking involved and the absolute relatively LOW cost associated with getting a KILLER picture.

Cliffy

Blasphemer:mad::D:p;)!!!!!!!!

I remember when they came out with THX many years ago. It sounded like crap, audio/video gurus were telling us to use dinky little speakers in the rear and at the center. The whole thing was a waste. From the get go, since 1994, I have had five full range identical speakers for surround sound.. I bought one of the first Meridian 565 to try surround sound music. Those gurus never recovered from that in my mind. I came to video from audio, from the interest I had in audio. In audio we put all our money on the equipment.

Then I was looking at those video magazines all showing ''fancy'' rooms (overdone, vulgar and cheesy to me) all paired with cheap audio and video equipment obviously sold at very high margins.. all put together by video gurus after a customer brain wash.. Now some gurus will tell you to use very expensive audiophile speakers for video, which is also a waste.. I mean when will people stop listening to video gurus and let them have all the fun with this hobby?? I want to have fun myself. I don't want to pay some one else to have all the fun.

For those who don't know Refugio, he's gone by a few different names here (Richie Dorseu or something along those lines was another before he got banned under that name) and mainly trolls in the ultra high-end forum. He's always railing about something and thinks that it's "a complete waste to use good speakers for video". Take everything he says with less than a grain of salt.

The new Folgers commercial sounds incredible on my Wilson speakers.

I'm certainly starting to see your point QQQ:(

I guess in his eyes all Jewish people are "XXX", all Blacks are "YYY", all Italians are "ZZZ".

Must be nice to live your life stereotyping everything and everyone. I guess it makes life easier that way.....my God dude, get a grip:rolleyes:

Tryg, I think you mean "Folgers", no?

.. "a complete waste to use good speakers for video"..

Hi hi.. I did not say that. I say that it is a waste to use very expensive audiophile speakers for video to listen mostly to dialogue, people farting and grunting, gunshots with an occasional music score.

I'm sure you could grab a Lumagen HDP for not that much, add that to a second hand 9" crt, can be a bargain. But you have me beat on the 2 year warranty, you have to buy from someone who does it for a living to offer that level of support (thanks Curt and Tim ;)) although I haven't had to pay for any repairs in the last 18 months, only postage costs, and most common problems you could almost service yourself.

In any case, doesn't matter.. I'm preaching to the wrong crowd in here.

I just hope the HD1 I have on order does 60% as well as my blend, then I'll be happy.

Hi Gino, the 9" CRT with warranty in new or refurbished condition is much more expensive than even the Sony Ruby still. Even at used prices, the 9" CRT is more expensive than the RS1 (on the average). I think VDC is pumping out new 9500LC's for well over $20K? And new G90's are going for close to that.

Mark Haflich,

I have read a lot of your posts and you very rarely contribute anything of meaning to the threads you address..... And since you have all the GREAT MP MODS (Which is mostly Vapor Ware & BS just like his now defunct 1292 "Stick A Fork It It It's Done" Streaking fix) lets bow down and kiss your feet!!! All you do is post garbage to keep your post count high!! I knew whoever was going to post something about comparing the RS-1 To the glorious ancient technology called CRT was going to take a good A$$ ripping..... Let the ones of us that are happy with our RS-1's enjoy them..... Glad I got that off my chest... Flame Away!!!

Richard


Richard, I'm dissapointed at your comments/attack here. I thought you were better than this. :(

I'm a CRT guy (9500LC) but I won't vote here, since I've not witnessed what the latest digitals are capable of.

Hi Gino, the 9" CRT with warranty in new or refurbished condition is much more expensive than even the Sony Ruby still. Even at used prices, the 9" CRT is more expensive than the RS1 (on the average).

Believe me, I know... both my Ultra's which came with warranty and 9+ tubes cost much more... and that doesn't include the other $1K's I've spent on mods, lenses etc.. (if you included those they cost lots more than the DVX/BlendZilla!)

Hi hi.. I did not say that. I say that it is a waste to use very expensive audiophile speakers for video to listen mostly to dialogue, people farting and grunting, gunshots with an occasional music score.

I still think BLAZING SADDLES would sound better on Wilson Audios, at least I keep trying to convince my wife that. :)

Beware! Farts sound utterly dry, uni dimentional and lack of bloom and ripeness on the Wilsons.

Gee. I just delivered another pair of Watt Puppy 8's today. You wouldn't believe how good a HT set up with all Wilson's can sound.

Then the poll question should have been: "Does the RS-1 beat the tiny minority of CRTs that are actually set-up correctly?"

-Mr. Wigggles

Ps. Yes, I am postulating that the tiny minority of people is directly proportional to the tiny minority of CRTs.

Listen, not everyone is as tall as you. Why you gotta get down on the little people and their little screens?

XXXYYYZZZ certainly is not some new fangled color space. :)

Well what a hot bed this one is!

CRT projection is always a killer for me because I tend to see rainbows on most of them due to uneven phosphor decay . Not joking.

I regard the Barco DP100 (3 chip 2k DLP) properly setup on a moderately sized screen (20-30ft) as being better than anything else I've seen. Its good enough to sign off on 2k film work in my opinion. Its still not quite there with regard to gammut , reds especially look a little oversaturated relative to the same material on 35mm film but you are trading a little innaccuracy in the gamut for print variability at the lab so in all honesty I can't really say its not as good as 35mm. 6 of one half dozen of the other if you like.

Someone told me the Qualia gave the DP100 a run for its money. ( I doubt this ...for video maybe but not for a film type colorspace) and quite a few people have said the RS1 gives the qualia a run for its money.

I've got quite a lot of experience with JVC HD10ks which I've always found a little lacklustre although I'm not convinced I've seen one at its best.

I've got an HD1 winging tis way to me so it will be interesting to see how it performs ( yes I bought blind without a demo as it seems too good to pass up and I quite like the idea of finally getting a projector I can live with for more that 2-3 years at a time)

Gee. I just delivered another pair of Watt Puppy 8's today. You wouldn't believe how good a HT set up with all Wilson's can sound.

How do Silvester Stalone and Mel Gibson sound on the Wilson's?? They rarely say anything at all in their movies.. Is it worth it to invest in five Watt Puppy 8s for surround sound.. $120,000 before tax to listen to nothing??

Actually we normally use the Wilson center and rears, not the 8's for those applications. We use the Maxx's or the 8s for the LR. Most peopl; can't afford it, so it really isn't a question of worth. Is a Ferrari worth it compared to say a BMW?

NO.
And especially NO for the puppies.

I have a Barco G808 with 12000 chassis hours and about 6000 tube hours. It's old and it's getting tired. (me too). Anyway, I'm in the commercial AV biz (14 yrs) and the only thing I've always hated about digital projectors is the motion artifacting. Take the HD-DVD Miami Vice for example. When the boats are running all out in the beginning my CRT is solid, when I saw it in the theater on a DLP Cinema machine it drove me nuts. From those who own or have seen it what will I see on the RS1?

It will be minimal if absent all together.

LCOS/DILA/SXRD is the closest you can get to CRT. This is actually one of the reasons why I like it so much.

Keeps that film like appearance while at the same time for the most part preserving digital sharpness.

If only I could get about 5 to 8 more foot lamberts and a seriously improved black level (no bulb bleed through), I would be hooked.

Cliff

I have a Barco G808 with 12000 chassis hours and about 6000 tube hours. It's old and it's getting tired. (me too). Anyway, I'm in the commercial AV biz (14 yrs) and the only thing I've always hated about digital projectors is the motion artifacting. Take the HD-DVD Miami Vice for example. When the boats are running all out in the beginning my CRT is solid, when I saw it in the theater on a DLP Cinema machine it drove me nuts. From those who own or have seen it what will I see on the RS1?


The smearing on the boats and throughout various scenes in Miami Vice is symptomatic of the Viper with an open shutter. you will see the same artifact on Collateral

When I get a RS1 I would be happy to bring it over to anyone's house in the Seattle area with what they consider a world class CRT setup. April? This should be fun and interesting for all!

The G90 can be tweaked all you want, moded all you want, ISFd, $20,000 worth of processors....whatever.

I'll bring a new, out of the box RS1 without any adjustments. :)

If there is anyone in the Seattle area that has such a Super CRT system please PM me. I will set this thing up.


Tryg ... I had two customers with a barco 1209S's and they replaced it with a RS1. No calibration as of yet ... and they both stated that they preferred the RS1. I didnt see the CRT's running so have no carnel knowledge of what they looked like but I felt going in that they would say that overall they still preferred their CRT. Two others in the Toronto area also got out of their CRT projector and made a move to the RS1 and both are tickled with it. So as bold a challenge as this might sound I think you got a good shot at converting some die hard CRT fans.

I already have. :)

There are some though that no amount of evidence presented to them will make them change. That's good too. It's all good :)

Hopefully we can pull off a Seattle area CRT shootout when the next batch ships!

Tryg, there's a CRT meet in Virginia early May, are you able to make it with an RS1?