From Home Media Magazine (http://www.homemediamagazine.com/news/html/breaking_article.cfm?article_id=10397):

Warner’s Total HD, a combined HD DVD and Blu-ray disc, will be ready for the market by June, said Dominick DallaVerde, senior director of HD operations, new technology and applications for Cinram. That will be a disc with a 15GB HD DVD on one side and a 25GB Blu-ray disc on the other. A higher capacity HD DVD 30GB/Blu-ray 25GB will be ready to ship by August, he said.

Firstly, it must be known that any Total HD releases between June and August will be single-layer for both formats.

However, it is even more serious for Blu-ray owners: the Cinram exec gives no timeframe for the readiness of an HD DVD 30GB/Blu-ray 50GB, so going from that, all Total HD releases going forward will be single-layer Blu-ray.

BD is directly affected - but HD DVD could be indirectly affected too.

Warner has been using the same encodes and contents (except for audio specs) for BD and HD DVD. They are always under 30 GB. When the title ends up under 25 GB then the BD is single-layer (e.g. Under Siege); when it's over 25 GB then the BD is dual-layer (e.g. Bullitt).

However, what happens when you're limited to 25GB on the BD side? Are they going to reencode for 30GB for the HD DVD side? I doubt it. So they will probably end up doing a 25/25 disc.

Only Warner (and perhaps Universal) will use it. The best way to stop this is to make one format die as soon as possible.

i seriously hope warner dig its own grave with these THD discs. i will never ever buy those discs that is for sure i would rather watch vhs then this.

i know there are a lot of WEAK people who will buy Those THD anyway. but not me that is for sure.

I think Warner is neutral in title support, but still a little biased toward HD DVD.

I can't see any other explanation for the lack of PCM tracks on their BD movies when HD DVD gets TrueHD a good deal of the time.( Just one small example.)

It just seems like they put a little more effort into their HD DVD support, but make it subtle enough to not be called out on it.

Thankfully, there is always the option to import and not have to deal with THD at all.

That is true. We Europeans like our discs with art on one side. ;)

But that does not solve the capacity problem - I don't think Warner will release a title with 25GB in NA and 50GB in Europe.

Only Warner (and perhaps Universal) will use it.

Scratch Universal - Ken Graffeo told HTF that they had no plans for that.

Right now it's Warner and New Line.

Remember what the Paramount consultant said the other day:

Warner Brothers’ proposed Total HD dual-format flipper disc is not likely to solve the problem, said Paramount’s Mandato, adding that Paramount is not likely to adopt the hybrid disc “until the capacity issue is solved.”

“The capacity issue they laid out at CES was the equivalent of a single-layer on both formats,” said Mandato. “The guiding rule we use for going to dual-layer on Blu-ray is that when the running time for a movie is beyond 105 or 110 minutes, it is pretty much pushing the envelope to needing a BD-50 disc. The average running time for our last 20 or so movies was 124 minutes. So, unless a flipper disc from Warner can accommodate that, I don’t think there will be that much interest.”

At the time, several forum members thought Mandato was just misinformed. :rolleyes:

I am still totally confused as to why these studios can't release a normal version as well as a combo version. This goes for both THD and HD/SD. Most, if not all, of their buyers right not are enthusiasts and from what I read here and my own opinion, most of these people don't want combos. So why is it so difficult to implement a solution that would please both sides?

I think Warner is neutral in title support, but still a little biased toward HD DVD.

I can't see any other explanation for the lack of PCM tracks on their BD movies when HD DVD gets TrueHD a good deal of the time.( Just one small example.)

It just seems like they put a little more effort into their HD DVD support, but make it subtle enough to not be called out on it.

It could be bias, but I think that HD DVD just has more standards in place and makes it easier for the studios to develop and implement the extra features. HDi seems to be more mature and TrueHD is in the HD DVD specs, so all the players have to conform. From what I have seen and read, Blu-ray is more a mess in this department.

WHAT WILL BECOME OF MY 300?!

I always hated the THD thing... and that was when I thought it was going to be dual layer for both formats... now BD is getting the short end of the stick for good? Terrible idea.

I call for an boycott for this piece ****.

Why boycott a product we have not seen yet. We have no idea if Warner even intends to start releasing them in June and what their criteria will be for releases. Warner has been a leader in both HD formats, remember. Now price might be another matter.

I have a bad feeling that The Matrix Trilogy and Lord of the Rings Trilogy will be on THD. Then what do we do?

I don't understand why everyone is so against this. I like the idea of owning both versions of the movie so I can play them on my 360 HD DVD player and in my brothers PS3.

I don't understand why everyone is so against this. I like the idea of owning both versions of the movie so I can play them on my 360 HD DVD player and in my brothers PS3.

I am against it because I being charged for products I will not use and I have no choice but to buy something I do not need or want to get something I do. To a lesser extent, the double sided discs leave no room for graphics and they are more easily fingerprinted and scratched. These are my reasons and i'm sure some will agree.

Terrible news. Warner's overall behavior with regard to high def discs is really dreadful. Their already mediocre transfers will become even worse.

What mediocre transfers? V for Vendetta? The Departed? Batman Begins? Corpse Bride?

I have a bad feeling that The Matrix Trilogy and Lord of the Rings Trilogy will be on THD. Then what do we do?

How could they possibly fit LOTR on a 25GB disc without compressing it to the point of oblivion?

THD is bad for both formats. THD discs cannot be counted as either HD-DVD or Blu-Ray sales so the Blu-Ray to HD-DVD ratio will get worse and discourage people from getting HD-DVD players. Since THD can't accommodate 50Gb Blu-ray encodes, it will discourage many Blu-ray buyers from getting THDs and Blu-ray will be hurt. I, for one, hope THD will die a quick death.

I am guessing the 30/25 combo is to keep prices in line with 50GB disks.

If they do go along with these disks, smaller studios like LG, Weinstein and Magnolia may find it worthwhile. Universal may also use them to go neutral at some point.

I think dual format palyers are a better solution than these disks, since it cripples BD. Bad for consumers, good for Warner. Hence I oppose this......

Terrible news for the LOTR series and Matrix series. They will look like a mess not to mention the 300 which is chalked full of action it will need a hefty amount of space VC-1 is good but not this good. Count me out :mad:

The net result of dual-format: mediocrity. I'll pass, unless they manage to really do something compelling.

What???!? Only 25 GB? WTF? This can't possibly be enough for a movie to look and sound pristine. Are they nuts?

Of course there have been several SL HD DVD (= 15 GB) releases that looked very good, and the 3+ hour movie King Kong fits on 30 GB just fine (and looks frickin awesome).
And most of the Blu-rays that are available nowadays are 25 GB anyway.

But I don't care. 25 GB really suck. I think I'm going back to SD now.

How could they possibly fit LOTR on a 25GB disc without compressing it to the point of oblivion?

Ahhh, the good old The Lord of the Rings argument.

If I remember correctly, there was a pretty long break in the middle of the movie when I watched it in theaters. And yet it didn't diminish the awesomeness of the film.

If I remember correctly, the SD DVD releases are split onto two discs. And yet it didn't diminish the awesomeness of the film.

If you're freaked out about having to get up after two hours (when a lot of movies last only one and a half) and quickly change discs then you may have a point. But to me this has always been a no-issue.

This could help force studios to switch from mpeg-2 and pcm to more advanced codecs for blu-ray. And it gives Sony/Fox/Disney a path forward to support HD-DVD if they start using them.

Terrible news indeed and I agree that Warner is favoring HD DVD over Blu-ray. There's just too much evidence for this.

All in all, just another example of why the format war and two formats is bad.

I dont understand why you think that the THD would lead any exclusiv studio to go neutral? Its only interesting for studios already neutral.


Greetz

I don't really want to say this, but Amir pointed out here thought these would be 30/25 for a while at least because no one outside of sony can do BD-50 well. People slaughtered him and now it appears that he may have been right.

Chris

... and I suppose we'll have to pay more $$$ for the privilege of having potentially inferior versions?

... and I suppose we'll have to pay more $$$ for the privilege of having potentially inferior versions?


Isn't this what BD is all about since its inception? :p

But seriously, this is just messed up. Now I can't choose between BD vs HD DVD for my Warner purchases anymore. Sigh. It's basically forcing HD DVD down everybody's throats and BS-ing the BD camp with the fake statement "we also support BD".

I'm not against the idea of the disc. In fact, I kind of like it knowing that I won't have to buy a movie over if a format dies off. However, it is effects the final quality of product then I'm 100% against it!

I am looking forward to the harry potter series and Matrix Trilogy and assume they won't come out until the THD discs are ready. If they are determined to use this format for them, I pray they push the releases back until the technology allows both sides of the disc to be the best that it can be.

This is absolutely ridiculous.

No way I'm buying a THD title now. It was a pretty bad idea at first, but it just turned into a horrible one.

If they initially release 15/25 gig discs, they better only be movies that are low fi for audio and not showcase video. Maybe some 80's and 90's comedy type films. I think doing something like Breakfast Club or The Jerk in this format would be fine. But please don't consider this for high rez movies with big sound!!!!!

If they initially release 15/25 gig discs, they better only be movies that are low fi for audio and not showcase video. Maybe some 80's and 90's comedy type films. I think doing something like Breakfast Club or The Jerk in this format would be fine. But please don't consider this for high rez movies with big sound!!!!!

I thought the plan was to use them for all releases.

Yep, that is the plan.

If I remember correctly, there was a pretty long break in the middle of the movie when I watched it in theaters.

What theatre did you watch it in? Weren't any breaks in my thaeatre... and I wouldn't have wanted any either.

Anyway I've always been against THD; frankly there's no new information here - we always knew that BD25 would be the deal with it. What's new is that even HD DVD will be crippled down to 15GB for the first couple of months of its existence.

And no doubt it will be the most expensive media out there as well.

Blech.

I definitely won't buy any THD discs, no matter what happens to be on them (Matrix/LOTR) or even if they work out the 50 GB capacity issue. I just hate flipper discs and will not stand for them.

And no doubt it will be the most expensive media out there as well.

Blech.

I wonder to what extent they will pass the cost on to consumers.

If they want it to become accepted, they are going to have to sell it cheaper than they do those SD combos.

frankly there's no new information here - we always knew that BD25 would be the deal with it.

Not so.

From their CES press conference (http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/09/live-coverage-from-the-warner-press-conference)

Q: What is the capacity for each side?
A: They have the full capacity of both HD DVD and Blu-ray and dual layer on both discs.


Now we know it is not going to be the case.

the double sided discs leave no room for graphics and they are more easily fingerprinted and scratched.

Easily solved. Just finger and scratch the bluray side. :)

Not so.

From their CES press conference (http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/09/live-coverage-from-the-warner-press-conference)

You're right about the release, but for whatever reason between then and now I've mentally shifted it to 25GB on the BD side. I think that conclusion of mine came from the fact that right now Sony themselves is ground zero for dual-layered BD, and *obviously* they're not going to be touching this format with a ten foot pole.

The studios are really doing everything they can to ensure HD movies fail. The way they've gone about the whole HD-DVD/Blu-Ray thing has been really pathetic.

I think they should include a colorful and attractive circular label that one could affix to the side they find offensive. :)

Wonder if they'll use the same encodes again, encoding for the lowest common denominator.
Last time they did 30GB encodes on HD DVD and ported them to BD 50GB, maybe the other way around next-time, meaning that everyone would lose quality?

Corpse Bride was less than an hour and twenty minutes long.

I think they should include a colorful and attractive circular label that one could affix to the side they find offensive. :)

That is awesome. :D

Message to all at Warner Home Video Division....

I do not want, nor will purchase an title on THD. The THD format is a wasted effort as far as I am concerned. I will spend my money else where!!!!

I think they should include a colorful and attractive circular label that one could affix to the side they find offensive. :)
Ding, ding, ding! We have a winning idea here, folks. I'd honestly not mind TotalHD if they included the disc label, used dual layers for both sides when appropriate, and came up with a clever "reversible" package design.

Of course, I wouldn't actually apply the label in the beginning - but if and when a clear winner emerged I'd have everything I needed to put the past behind me and convert to a single format.

Easily solved. Just finger and scratch the bluray side. :)


I'm not crazy about this, I see it as a patch. I don't see the point of 15 GB HD DVD, and 30 later, why not just wait until your 30/25? My guess is that until the 30/25 disks are out, they will choose shorter titles.

The flipper thing doesn't bother me that much, I don't know how you all treat you disks, but package to player, player to package every three years isn't going to hurt my discs any.

I suppose it could take it's toll on rentals.

Price is another thing, I guess this is a wait and see.
I'd rather see more bi players.

I don't see the point of 15 GB HD DVD, and 30 later, why not just wait until your 30/25?

Corporate bragging rights at CEDIA in September.

Wonder if they'll use the same encodes again, encoding for the lowest common denominator.
Last time they did 30GB encodes on HD DVD and ported them to BD 50GB, maybe the other way around next-time, meaning that everyone would lose quality?

There is no doubt they will be the same; the lowest possible quality.

Message to all at Warner Home Video Division....

I do not want, nor will purchase an title on THD. The THD format is a wasted effort as far as I am concerned. I will spend my money else where!!!!

Exactly..............speak with your wallets. Don't whine. THD will make a SLOOOOOOOW HD adoption even SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWER. Good job Warner.

They just keep outdoing themselves in efforts to complicate their efforts to produce, and our efforts to watch, HD content. How are non-AVSr's going to understand all the permutations of media types (HD, BD and THD) and players(HD, BD and dual-format)? Manufacturers have to produce another media, with potentially different encodes of the same movie - depending on whether it is an HD, BD or THD disc. What about the coatings on the THD? Is the BD side going to be different (hard coat) than the HD side. So I could buy a BD-only disc that is of higher quality than the same movie on a THD - because of the space available? How come my HD DVD interactive features don't work on my dual-format player but work on my friends HD DVD-only player? Should I get one of those new dual format player thingy's? This is fubar and gets worse with every announcement!

Several speculate about Universal using THD.

Of course, once Universal goes neutral, the format war will end. No other studio will adopt THD, retailers will sell only Blu-ray players, and soon there will be no need for THD at all.

Honestly, it all depends on the price of these things. As long as they are no more expensive on Amazon than the $27.95 combos currently then it's a fine idea. Any more than that and no one will buy them.

Several speculate about Universal using THD.

Of course, once Universal goes neutral, the format war will end. No other studio will adopt THD, retailers will sell only Blu-ray players, and soon there will be no need for THD at all.

Wishful thinking much?

Several speculate about Universal using THD.

Of course, once Universal goes neutral, the format war will end. No other studio will adopt THD, retailers will sell only Blu-ray players, and soon there will be no need for THD at all.

Dreamy..but that's not going to happen.

Folks you can't do anything about it. Suck it up and stop whining. Studios have a right to mitigate their risk and Warner has content that any movie lover will want. You guys keep telling us HD DVD'er that content is King....which basically means that no matter how much you complain. You'll be back kissing the King's ring and pledging allegiance soon enough.

Honestly, it all depends on the price of these things. As long as they are no more expensive on Amazon than the $27.95 combos currently then it's a fine idea. Any more than that and no one will buy them.

A reasonable price does not make up for compromised content.

I'm going to put myself out on the bullseye and say I will support THD. It won't hurt my feelings. It's already been proven that you can make any movie look fantastic with the right compressionist using VC-1, and nearly every movie will fit juts fine on 30/25 using VC-1, and look just fine.

Even if I'm wrong though, I'll still support anything that is potentially bad for bluray. I'd rather see both formats die than Sony win. This is the nearly as good as Warner going HD DVD exclusive, and HD DVD supporters should reward them (as long as they don't cost more than current combos).

Go ahead and begin the flames, I just marinated myself, and I'm ready to be roasted!

Several speculate about Universal using THD.

Of course, once Universal goes neutral, the format war will end. No other studio will adopt THD, retailers will sell only Blu-ray players, and soon there will be no need for THD at all.


If they sell, they will be sold.

If the HD DVD side is good, and the price affordable, I will buy them. Why wouldn't I, for the good of the format on the side I won't play in less I have to three years down the road?

I'm not sure how compromised they will be, if at all. According to the article, the 15/25 discs will only be for June and July (ish). They said the 30/25 discs will be ready to roll out by August (ish). I can see issues with the first ones, so maybe they'll be limited to short movies with minimal extras. What is Warner doing now? They are taking their movies encoded for HD DVD, and sticking it on a BD disc. Once they start using 30/25 discs, is that really going to be any different?
J

Even if I'm wrong though, I'll still support anything that is potentially bad for bluray. I'd rather see both formats die than Sony win. This is the nearly as good as Warner going HD DVD exclusive, and HD DVD supporters should reward them (as long as they don't cost more than current combos).

Go ahead and begin the flames, I just marinated myself, and I'm ready to be roasted!

Is this your passive aggressive way of going format neutral Meatpopsicle? ;)

Imagine all those royalties the Devil... I mean Sony... will be collecting from every single Warner movie you buy that you would have otherwise simply have bought on HD DVD. The horrors!

I hated the idea just for being a flipper. I'll definitely pass and hope on the occassional import in all but the most wanted titles.

Imagine all those royalties the Devil... I mean Sony... will be collecting from every single Warner movie you buy that you would have otherwise simply have bought on HD DVD. The horrors!
Bizzaro translation:

Imagine all those royalties the Devil... I mean Toshiba... will be collecting from every single Warner movie you buy that you would have otherwise simply have bought on Blu-ray. The horrors! ;)

The irony of it. So many people wanted Warner to go neutral. They go neutral, and now everyone will get an inferior encoding. At least before, everything would have been encoded VC-1 on HD30, and anyone who was format neutral or an HD DVD supporter got a pristine release. Now the best anyone can hope for is HD-25 since it has to fit on a BD-25, with very little hope of BD50 in the future since the technology seems so difficult to implement. Warner should have just stayed exclusive to HD DVD.

Bizzaro translation:

Imagine all those royalties the Devil... I mean Toshiba... will be collecting from every single Warner movie you buy that you would have otherwise simply have bought on Blu-ray. The horrors! ;)

I think you're putting the cart before the horse.

You'll never hear me say something like this: I'd rather see both formats die than Toshiba win.

If HD DVD wins, guess what: I'm buying HD DVDs! That's in sharp contrast to those that will fly small aircraft into Sony HQ sooner than they would buy a Blu-ray disc.

Now... all of that aside, yes I still detest this Total HD design by Warner. But it doesn't help or hurt one camp more than the other ultimately; in fact, it removes Warner from the equation completely, as they won't even be able to track accurately which format owners are "driving" their video sales. Imagine poor Meatpopsicle - him and his fellow HD DVD owners basically the only ones buying Total HD (already accustomed to the flippers)... and yet to Warner, as far as they know, they could be BD owners instead.


PS - If I wanted bizzarro translations, I would have gone further by changing this: This is the nearly as good as Warner going HD DVD exclusive, and HD DVD supporters should reward them, into this: This is the nearly as good as Warner going BD exclusive, and BD supporters should reward them

But of course, that's not how I feel at all. And honestly, it doesn't make sense for *anyone* to feel that way about their format in this sad spectacle of a situation.

I'm going to put myself out on the bullseye and say I will support THD. It won't hurt my feelings. It's already been proven that you can make any movie look fantastic with the right compressionist using VC-1, and nearly every movie will fit juts fine on 30/25 using VC-1, and look just fine.

Even if I'm wrong though, I'll still support anything that is potentially bad for bluray. I'd rather see both formats die than Sony win. This is the nearly as good as Warner going HD DVD exclusive, and HD DVD supporters should reward them (as long as they don't cost more than current combos).

Go ahead and begin the flames, I just marinated myself, and I'm ready to be roasted!

Universal and Paramount are capable of getting good results from VC-1, but the results Warner has been getting recently from VC-1 are already mediocre. This will only make things worse.

im already avoiding any warner blu-ray that doesnt have PCM audio (basically the only one ive bought was departed). I wont buy any of the other many warner titles i want until they release re-encoded versions with better audio.

so obviously, i'll be avoiding these stupid double discs like the plague.

warner, stop dicking over the superior format.

I will avoid THD discs because:
1) A purchase of a THD disc will do nothing to end the format war.
2) I don't want some crippled partial attempt of a HD movie.
3) I don't want to pay extra for this POS product.

I'll stick to only buying BR discs so there's no confusing which direction my vote is going. I'll buy the complete product (including PCM) on a true BR disc rather than some least common denominator hacked up compressed THD disc...

I think you're putting the cart before the horse.

You'll never hear me say something like this: I'd rather see both formats die than Toshiba win.

If HD DVD wins, guess what: I'm buying HD DVDs! That's in sharp contrast to those that will fly small aircraft into Sony HQ sooner than they would buy a Blu-ray disc.

Now... all of that aside, yes I still detest this Total HD design by Warner. But it doesn't help or hurt one camp more than the other ultimately; in fact, it removes Warner from the equation completely, as they won't even be able to track accurately which format owners are "driving" their video sales. Imagine poor Meatpopsicle - him and his fellow HD DVD owners basically the only ones buying Total HD (already accustomed to the flippers)... and yet to Warner, as far as they know, they could be BD owners instead.


PS - If I wanted bizzarro translations, I would have gone further by changing this: This is the nearly as good as Warner going HD DVD exclusive, and HD DVD supporters should reward them, into this: This is the nearly as good as Warner going BD exclusive, and BD supporters should reward them

But of course, that's not how I feel at all. And honestly, it doesn't make sense for *anyone* to feel that way about their format in this sad spectacle of a situation.

Eh, ok I was just illustrating that IP's from both camps are on the disc, nothing more nothing less. But while we're at it, this entire mess has been a compromise from day one, I don't see this new wrinkle as all that devastating in the long run.

From Home Media Magazine (http://www.homemediamagazine.com/news/html/breaking_article.cfm?article_id=10397):



Firstly, it must be known that any Total HD releases between June and August will be single-layer for both formats.

However, it is even more serious for Blu-ray owners: the Cinram exec gives no timeframe for the readiness of an HD DVD 30GB/Blu-ray 50GB, so going from that, all Total HD releases going forward will be single-layer Blu-ray.

BD is directly affected - but HD DVD could be indirectly affected too.

Warner has been using the same encodes and contents (except for audio specs) for BD and HD DVD. They are always under 30 GB. When the title ends up under 25 GB then the BD is single-layer (e.g. Under Siege); when it's over 25 GB then the BD is dual-layer (e.g. Bullitt).

However, what happens when you're limited to 25GB on the BD side? Are they going to reencode for 30GB for the HD DVD side? I doubt it. So they will probably end up doing a 25/25 disc.

I will boycott Total HD disk until they are dual layer for both format. I will not accept HD DVD on a 15 GB disk and I am sure the Blu-Ray will be limited to 15 GB to use one single encoding for both format. No thanks!

Oh this is Terrible! Oh no! What will we do *cries* Honestly people are we not more intelligent then this? People mention LOTR and Matrix like Warner has already pressed and shipped them on 30/25gb Total HD. Lets calm down, take a deep breath, and relax. This whole forum is becoming difficult to enjoy because so so many whine about nothing.

Oh this is Terrible! Oh no! What will we do *cries* Honestly people are we not more intelligent then this? People mention LOTR and Matrix like Warner has already pressed and shipped them on 30/25gb Total HD. Lets calm down, take a deep breath, and relax. This whole forum is becoming difficult to enjoy because so so many whine about nothing.

I agree. Much ado about nothing. I expect I'll buy a few, if they aren't hideously expensive.
J

this sux...... why do I have to pay more for a flipper (insert you fav format here) and be forced to the single layer releases for a while. :mad:

I personally don't care for BD and for sure don't want to have to pay more for it. :mad:

As much as it stinks for me and HD DVD, its really sh!tty for BD fans. :eek:

All in all we all lose....... :mad:

I'm thinking that Warner may release certain catalog titles as single discs, maybe?
Like the Harry Potter and Matrix films, since these have HDi content?
The one Harry Potter film thats already available in the UK would that fit on a BD-25?
Would any of these Hdi releases fit on a BD-25?
I hope Warner would just release all their held back movies with HDi content before this TotalHD comes available, with or without Blu-Ray.

Well, I personally don't care for the idea of TotalHD after reading this. I believe that each format should be used to their maximum potential.

So far it looks like it will be an additional cost for less of a product.

The single layer THD discs should NEVER see the light of day. If Warner is insistant on treating both formats equal, then a 15gig HD-DVD side would hold everything back in terms of quality and extras for both formats. What could possibly fit in 15gigs?

This is why it's better for one format to end this "war" already.

The sooner there's one standard format, the sooner everyone (including the studios) can move on.

I am still totally confused as to why these studios can't release a normal version as well as a combo version. This goes for both THD and HD/SD. Most, if not all, of their buyers right not are enthusiasts and from what I read here and my own opinion, most of these people don't want combos. So why is it so difficult to implement a solution that would please both sides?


THD is really meant to solve a particular problem for the studios, and that is having multiple SKUs of a product at retail. Retailers HATE to stock multiple versions of the same product, especially if they don't sell quickly. From a retail point of view, having bins for the same DVD, HD-DVD and BD product is wasteful. That is retail space that they could use for other products.

Thus THD.

Releasing THD and also having a separate SKU for BD or HD-DVD defeats the purpose of the combo product.

THD is really meant to solve a particular problem for the studios, and that is having multiple SKUs of a product at retail. Retailers HATE to stock multiple versions of the same product, especially if they don't sell quickly. From a retail point of view, having bins for the same DVD, HD-DVD and BD product is wasteful. That is retail space that they could use for other products.

Thus THD.

Releasing THD and also having a separate SKU for BD or HD-DVD defeats the purpose of the combo product.


Before I ever entered this forum, I heard about Warner's plan to release this format. I thought it seemed a little silly, but the bell that went off in my head was that they still favoring HD DVD and this was another way to keep it around. I'm sure the economy of a single HD release for both was a factor, but IMO there is a whisper of format preference in this choice.

warner, stop dicking over the superior format.

They aren't, they are favoring it. (Since you must be referring to HD DVD)

Well I am starting to see this as Warner actually being HD DVD exclusive, but they are being nice and giving you a bonus Bluray side with your purchase. HD DVD supporters won't notice a difference.

Oh this is Terrible! Oh no! What will we do *cries* Honestly people are we not more intelligent then this? People mention LOTR and Matrix like Warner has already pressed and shipped them on 30/25gb Total HD. Lets calm down, take a deep breath, and relax. This whole forum is becoming difficult to enjoy because so so many whine about nothing.

Good post. This product isn't here yet, but both sides are slamming it.
Have a little patience.

If the quality suffers, don't buy it
If it isn't priced right, don't buy it.

If they do the above correctly, then it helps consumers mitigate the limitations of availability for both formats.

Same is true for dual format players. If they're too expensive, then they do not help to solve the problem. If they can be priced right in a timely manner, then it's a great step in mitigating the risk consumers now feel compelled to take.

Why is there so much emotional energy invested by so many early adopters in protecting ( or justifying) their side. I thought they had enough play money and savvy that their early purchase could become expendible without this much angst.

Well I am starting to see this as Warner actually being HD DVD exclusive, but they are being nice and giving you a bonus Bluray side with your purchase.
That was pretty damn funny. :)

The best way to stop this is to make one format die as soon as possible.

This is not the fault of the format war. This would never have happened if Warner had stuck to their guns and remained HD DVD exclusive, just like Universal, Sony, Fox, and Disney have done. The format war was inevitable. But just because there is a format war doesn't mean that the quality of the releases had to suffer. So think about it, the two main NEUTRAL studios are Warner and Paramount. One of them is now compromising their quality to produce a disc that justifies their neutral stance; the other has simply stopped doing anything, again ostensibly to justify their neutral stance. One could argue that it is better for studios to remain exclusive based on this admittedly limited evidence, but certainly there is not a compelling case for any studio to go neutral. No matter how much logic anyone attempts, these case studios suggest otherwise.

The only way I see the THD format taking off, is if Sony, Fox and Disney support it. And if that happened (which is highly unlikely), I believe BD would eventually die off. Of course Sony isn't going to go THD (but possibly Disney and Fox), so I see this format not gathering much steam.

The only way I see the THD format taking off, is if Sony, Fox and Disney support it. And if that happened (which is highly unlikely), I believe BD would eventually die off. Of course Sony isn't going to go THD (but possibly Disney and Fox), so I see this format not gathering much steam.

TotalHD doesn't need a lot of steam ...its already a pile of steaming %@R#!

I think Warner is neutral in title support, but still a little biased toward HD DVD.

I can't see any other explanation for the lack of PCM tracks on their BD movies when HD DVD gets TrueHD a good deal of the time.( Just one small example.)

It just seems like they put a little more effort into their HD DVD support, but make it subtle enough to not be called out on it.
thats not warners doing,blame the bda for that

The irony of it. So many people wanted Warner to go neutral. They go neutral, and now everyone will get an inferior encoding. At least before, everything would have been encoded VC-1 on HD30, and anyone who was format neutral or an HD DVD supporter got a pristine release. Now the best anyone can hope for is HD-25 since it has to fit on a BD-25, with very little hope of BD50 in the future since the technology seems so difficult to implement. Warner should have just stayed exclusive to HD DVD.
agreed,but if the bda went mpeg4,it would be no issue now!this does favor hd dvd,but thats ok,i hope sony gets a big bite in the ass now

This is why it's better for one format to end this "war" already.

The sooner there's one standard format, the sooner everyone (including the studios) can move on.

Absolutely! I'm often confused as to the BD-25, HD DVD-15, BD-50, HD DVD-30, TL-45, 3xDVD, TL-51, Combo crap; 1080i/p, 720p; HDMI/VGA/Component, let alone AVC, VC-1, MPEG2, and the *multiple* audio formats. Small wonder the consumers are avoiding these formats.

WHV has never said that they will charge more for TotalHD discs than they do for a single-format disc. Why does one assume that they will? Their business plan takes into account that there are substantial distribution and administrative savings from single inventory (which, indeed, there are!). So I believe that their aim is to eat any additional replication cost, because they will make up for at least some of that elsewhere.

Eric

Ahhh, the good old The Lord of the Rings argument.

If I remember correctly, there was a pretty long break in the middle of the movie when I watched it in theaters. And yet it didn't diminish the awesomeness of the film.

If I remember correctly, the SD DVD releases are split onto two discs. And yet it didn't diminish the awesomeness of the film.

If you're freaked out about having to get up after two hours (when a lot of movies last only one and a half) and quickly change discs then you may have a point. But to me this has always been a no-issue.


Where did you see the movie they never had an intermission for any of them in my theater, and when I rented the movie it was on one disk. Stopping a movie in the middle does diminish the enjoyment for me.

This is just a bad idea. Most movie studios think its more cost efficient to have one format this could drag the battle out farther. They must have patented the disk and want to drag it out and keep two formats so they can make money on every disk sold assuming more studios support it.

They say the disks will be ready in June, they haven’t announced any titles on it so it may not actually come out in June. In the first two months of this year Blu-ray has outsold HD-DVD 2:1 each month totaling 500,000 to 250,000 if this continues through May it will be 1,250,000 to 625,000, I think this month will be more like 3:1. They could start to have second thoughts, that would mean for the first business quarter 2:1, 2:1, 3:1 that’s a trend.

For HD movies to become mainstream the quickest its best to have one format and the quickest is for every studio to release on Blu-ray (its possible that could happen anytime this year) they don't have to stop making HD-DVD but everyone would know they wont have a useless player like Betamax, if HD-DVD wins Sony movies probably wont be on it till late 2009 or 2010 then many people will get into it. If it’s Blu-ray it’s possible it could happen as early as end of the year (if good prices and movie selection).

WHV has never said that they will charge more for TotalHD discs than they do for a single-format disc. Why does one assume that they will? Their business plan takes into account that there are substantial distribution and administrative savings from single inventory (which, indeed, there are!). So I believe that their aim is to eat any additional replication cost, because they will make up for at least some of that elsewhere.

Eric

Unveiled back in January at CES, Warner's Total HD format is the studio's proposed solution to the ongoing next-gen format war, offering a Blu-ray version on one side of the disc, and an HD DVD versionnon the other. The studio has said that the combo discs would be compatible with all Blu-ray and HD DVD players, and would retail for little more than current single-format releases.

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Industry_Trends/Total_HD/Warner/Cinram/First_Total_HD_Combo_Discs_Could_Be_Ready_by_Early_Summer/521

Here's something that would kill THD really dead really quick:

If AACS continues to get hacked/compromised to the point that the studios are forced to move to BD+ for advanced copy protection, you can be sure that HD-DVD (and by default THD) will no longer be a viable release format.

SyHD

... "little more than the current single-format releases"?

F**k that. Here is the relative cost of a dual-format ... should be "cheaper than" if they want the dual-format to survive.

Yep, the prices should be going down now, not up.

A couple things, why do some make a big deal that Warner seems to be leaning towards HD DVD(most likely BD supporters) the reason is because some feel that if Warner were to take a side that the other most likely will be doomed :D Im a supporter of HD DVD but all I really care about is watching a movie in HD.. If Bd prevails the world will not end for me I will just go out and buy a BD player when the price comes down.. Im really not for THD but if thats what it takes for me to have more HD movies than so be it(as long as the quality is HD DVD)...
As for everyone knocking the quality even before the THD disc are out, please let me have a look into your time machine that has transported some of u into the future so I can buy the winning Power Ball ticket.. Come on people stop complaining and just try to enjoy the HD ride wether it be HD DVD or BD because this format war is going to continue through 2007!!!

How oh how will we fit movies in 25 GB ????

Let me introduce you to my friend mathematics ;)

Lets see how much we can fit on these at an average bitrate of 20Mbit/s:
20 Mbit/s * 60 s/m * 60 h/m = 72,000 Mbit/hour
25 Gbyte/disk * 1,000 Mbyte/Gbyte * 8 bit/byte = 200,000 Mbit/disk
200,000 Mbit/disk / 72,000 Mbit/hour = 2.778 hour/disk

So what we see that we can fit 2 hours and 46 minutes of content at an average bitrate of 20 Mbit/s which is more then enough for advanced codecs.

I don't see a problem.

-Andy

How oh how will we fit movies in 25 GB ????

Let me introduce you to my friend mathematics ;)

Lets see how much we can fit on these at an average bitrate of 20Mbit/s:
20 Mbit/s * 60 s/m * 60 h/m = 72,000 Mbit/hour
25 Gbyte/disk * 1,000 Mbyte/Gbyte * 8 bit/byte = 200,000 Mbit/disk
200,000 Mbit/disk / 72,000 Mbit/hour = 2.778 hour/disk

So what we see that we can fit 2 hours and 46 minutes of content at an average bitrate of 20 Mbit/s which is more then enough for advanced codecs.

I don't see a problem.

-Andy

Even though you're right, good luck convincing hard core BD supporters.

They are addicted to the notion that massive space and massive bandwith are requirements for top tier picture quality.

People...

Warner is NOT favoring either side. DVD technology has been around for 10 years. HD-DVD is built on that technology. It's only logical that advancements to it are made easier than Blu-ray which is an entirely new tecnology. Hence, the reason why they are able to produce the double layer HD-DVD side with less problems.

People may want to see these flop in the AVS.

But my hunch is that they won't, I thought they are a guaranteed flop at one time, or would just never emerge, but that's when I thought HD in general was going to be in less of a mess than it appears to be.

I'm not saying they will always be around, but I think HD DVD buyers will buy them, and a large enough portion of BD supporters will so that the total number of sales per disk end up generating a higher profit than the burden of releasing to both.

If this comes to pass, it's proof that total HD sales are still so low that studios see no reason to abandon their game plans.

How oh how will we fit movies in 25 GB ????

Let me introduce you to my friend mathematics ;)

Lets see how much we can fit on these at an average bitrate of 20Mbit/s:
20 Mbit/s * 60 s/m * 60 h/m = 72,000 Mbit/hour
25 Gbyte/disk * 1,000 Mbyte/Gbyte * 8 bit/byte = 200,000 Mbit/disk
200,000 Mbit/disk / 72,000 Mbit/hour = 2.778 hour/disk

So what we see that we can fit 2 hours and 46 minutes of content at an average bitrate of 20 Mbit/s which is more then enough for advanced codecs.

I don't see a problem.

-Andy

You don't see a problem because you forgot the audio :)

Try adding 6 channel TrueHD and Dolby Digital, or PCM at 48/24 or 96/24. Plus a half hour or so of extra content. The studios are not interested in doing just plain vanilla movie releases; the whole reason they want BD-J or iHD is that they have big plans to take advantage of that capability with lots of extra features. Remember, this is probably the last physical format that will be released, and it has to last 10 years or more. THAT'S the planning horizon for the movie studios.

-j

Me and a few others saw this coming months ago when TotalHD was first announced.

I also predicted that it probably would not matter anyway, because even if it were dual layer BD50, Warner was not going to do separate encodes for HD DVD and BD, and so most encodes will likely be identical VC1 and DD+ audio totaling under 25 GIG for both formats.

I really doubt that Warner wants to spend the extra money on creating a separate encode and audio track just to fill up a BD 50 and a HD DVD 30.

I knew these discs would turn into a PR nightmare for Warner, as you can see by reading this thread.

If there's one thing BR and HD DVD debaters can agree on, it'd probably be the fact that Warner's new TotalHD format is a piece of crap.

/rant off

By the way, BD "winning the war" and HD DVD "dying" is not a solution, but it's typical for the viral marketing types to parrot that message around here.

If HD DVD was dead right now Warner still would not release all of their content on BD50, nor would all of the other studios, because there simply is not the manufacturing capacity to run all of those titles on BD50 at this point. You are going to see a ton of BD25 releases weather HD DVD is alive and kicking or not.

Bravo Warner, they saw muddy H-idef waters and threw in more dirt :rolleyes: Thanks.

Even though you're right, good luck convincing hard core BD supporters.

They are addicted to the notion that massive space and massive bandwith are requirements for top tier picture quality.

Which is precisely why Toshiba are not proposing a 51GB HD DVD variant..... :rolleyes:

Htdude14

can I use your time machine :rolleyes:

IMO Warner is the last studio we need to worry about with respect to not putting out quality discs. I have plenty of faith that they will use stand alone discs when needed, but these will be the norm otherwise. I'm willing to give WB the benefit of the doubt until I actually have a few to test myself.

The interesting part of these THD discs is that if they are done well they will completely dispel the notion that anything near 50GB is needed to watch movies with quality HD PQ and AQ. That may be what is getting some BD supporters a little worried. :)

Looking at this thread I can see why Warner ran away and hid from debate on any HD topics in their recent HTF chat.

Even Warner can't defend their own mutant format.

If Blu-ray sales move to a 3:1 lead it will mean 75% of HD disc buyers will be forced by Warner Bros. to buy a product they do not want.

I can't help wondering how much more of this mess the retailers are going to put up with and for how much longer.

I guess the real question is what stinker movies will Warner be releasing in June and July on a HD15/BD25 disk, and will they use the HD15 master for the BD25 :eek:

If I didn't know better, I would say Warner is going to try to make a serious run for the 'worst encode' crown.

Which is precisely why Toshiba are not proposing a 51GB HD DVD variant..... :rolleyes:


You boys are forgetting about audio. 25 GB doesn't cut it for a lot of titles.

Looking at this thread I can see why Warner ran away and hid from debate on any HD topics in their recent HTF chat.

Even Warner can't defend their own mutant format.

But you can bet your azz they are reading our comments! ;)

Did I mention I won't buy Total HD... :confused:

If there's one thing BR and HD DVD debaters can agree on, it'd probably be the fact that Warner's new TotalHD format is a piece of crap.

/rant off

Not true. Some of us support HD DVD, and to most of us, we don't care. It's no difference to us. (Unless it costs more, or for those that are addicted to labels)

But you can bet your azz they are reading our comments! ;)

Did I mention I won't buy Total HD... :confused:


What brave soul will create the meaningless pole that I'm sure will nip this abomination in the bud? :rolleyes: ;) :rolleyes: ;)

Which is precisely why Toshiba are not proposing a 51GB HD DVD variant..... :rolleyes:

And precisely why most of the HD DVD camp have publicly said it's not necessary. Everyone know's TL-51 is nothing but PR, since Sony's favorite bluray drum to beat is capacity.

Not true. Some of us support HD DVD, and to most of us, we don't care. It's no difference to us. (Unless it costs more, or for those that are addicted to labels)

I'll buy if they look good on the HD DVD side, and are titles I want. Warner is usually fairly realistic in their pricing, so I'm pretty curious.

Actually this has been kind of a refreshing antidote to all the Casino Royalle victory parties :D

It's too early to know for sure what we're getting, what PQ would be like etc. But I too believe THD isn't a good idea if qualities suffer and prices are high. Still, I suspect people who want the Warner movie in HD will end up buying THDs.

I support HD DVD too...glad you chose to disagree for the hell of it. Enjoy your 15GB single-layer encodes that are more expensive than a normal 30GB DL.

Not true. Some of us support HD DVD, and to most of us, we don't care. It's no difference to us. (Unless it costs more, or for those that are addicted to labels)

They said in their press release that they could do dual layer on both sides, just because there's no time frame doesn't mean it's not going to happen. I expect that where deemed necessary WB will release on the 30/50 THD, and hold releases to be able to do so if necessary.

That being said, this whole thing is a disaster given the level of outrage here and on other forums. I hope the THD does what WB possibly intends it to do sooner rather than later...

Interesting times ahead, and thank god that no other studio than New Line (which is a WB sub anyway right?) has declared they will use this ridiculous concept. I was particularly encouraged to see Paramount state they have no intention of using it.

That being said, this whole thing is a disaster given the level of outrage here and on other forums. I hope the THD does what WB possibly intends it to do sooner rather than later...




We'll have to see if outrage (though not wall to wall) on a handful of tech forums will = no sales.

It may be silly, but it may work. They have been plugging this all year, and actually the news about the initially lower GB isn't new, I've heard it bandied about this forum for weeks.

Did everybody just think they were kidding?

You don't see a problem because you forgot the audio :)

Try adding 6 channel TrueHD and Dolby Digital, or PCM at 48/24 or 96/24. Plus a half hour or so of extra content. The studios are not interested in doing just plain vanilla movie releases; the whole reason they want BD-J or iHD is that they have big plans to take advantage of that capability with lots of extra features. Remember, this is probably the last physical format that will be released, and it has to last 10 years or more. THAT'S the planning horizon for the movie studios.

-j

No i did not forget the audio ;) (did I ever even mention video?)

20Mbit/s is a very reasonable goal using advanced codecs. True you wont be able to do MPEG2 and PCM but thats a waste anyway. Even if you leave 2GB for plenty of SD extras (~1hr of 5Mbit/s action), you still can still fit 2 hours and 33 min of HD content at 20Mbit/s.

How that 20Mbit/s will be sliced up is likely going to be:

1.5Mbit/s Primary Audio
0.5Mbit/s Secondary Audio
~0 Subtitles
18Mbit/s Video

Anyone want to argue that 18Mbit/s is not enough for AVC/VC-1?

And if your movie is shorter you get even better.

So as you see this covers the 97% (made up stat) of movies that fit in under two and a half hours. For the remaining 3% well maybe they can release them separately ;) But the point is that this will easily handle almost every movie.

PS: If you want a bunch of HD extras well I guess you can throw in an extra disk. :P

am I the only one who thinks there is a little funny irony in Warner forcing two camps that should have settled their differences a couple years ago to walk around in the same pair of clown-pants now?

I will not buy THD disks. Heck, I don't even buy Finding Nemo since it has a full screen version on it. Why do I want to spend money on something I won't watch or use at all? This THD thing is anti-consumers.

No THD for me. :mad:

just another reason to sit on the fence with these high def formats.

am I the only one who thinks there is a little funny irony in Warner forcing two camps that should have settled their differences a couple years ago to walk around in the same pair of clown-pants now?
No :)

am I the only one who thinks there is a little funny irony in Warner forcing two camps that should have settled their differences a couple years ago to walk around in the same pair of clown-pants now?

Well if you remember, sometime last winter there was talk of the two formats resolving differences and deciding to do one format. But then, as you would expect, Sony backed out of it. Because, as usual, if they don't have ultimate control of the spec and technology and royalties, they want no part of it.

I support HD DVD too...glad you chose to disagree for the hell of it. Enjoy your 15GB single-layer encodes that are more expensive than a normal 30GB DL.

Maybe you have trouble reading, but there will only be single layer releases between June and August. Just how many movies do you think WB will release in that timeframe before we get our normal dual layer 30 gig disks?

For those asking why people don't want 2 formats, these TotalHD discs could be Exhibit A. All this effort and money to try to achieve what people would get if there was only one format. Basically a way to guarantee that discs are compatible with all players, but where Warner looks like they will charge extra for that privilege. Much like the combo players that have the extra effort and expense to guarantee that all discs are compatible with one player, when a single HD format would give us that. I would personally rather see either Blu-ray or HD DVD win outright than see 30/25 or even 30/50 discs with encodes made to the lowest common denominator become the common release.

--Darin

I have a bad feeling that The Matrix Trilogy and Lord of the Rings Trilogy will be on THD. Then what do we do?


What do we do if LOTR trilogy are encoded to less than 25GB per disc for the video....?

Warner is setting the worst example of what a studio should be doing in terms of "picture and sound" quality when it comes to HD and very little regard to the consumer who wants HD at its best.

I've said this before, Disney is setting the best example of how a studio should confront this format war. I have divided it up into three easy and logical steps which is exactly the path Disney has followed to achieve such high praise from me..

1) Pick the technology that has the greatest potential to making your movie look its best. Disney chose Blu-Ray for obvious reasons...

2) Get behind it solely... as they have..

3) Get people to work on encoding the films to look and sound their very best so your movies may shine and avs forum members are happy.

An added benefit is that if reviewers are also happy watching the movie on their $10,000 projectors, those discs will get shining reviews in the picture and sound quality dept. which will produce even more sales by people who pay attention to those reviews like us avs'ers.

We are seeing this done with almost all Disney releases so far that are on 50GB discs. Even some 25Gb discs with shorter lengh films look good with AVC. Pirates will be no different and I believe is going to set the standard for all Disney and Pixar films to come...All while Universal and Warner try to encode their video, sound, and extra's all under 25GB of space. Warner can perhaps play with that extra 5GB for the HD-DVD side and have the higher quality sound as they did with Superman Returns even though the disc was released in a dual layer BD50 disc.

Overall the sooner this format war ends, the better chance of getting movies encoded to fit 50GB dual layer BD's rather than the latter...The better for all of us...

If all of us place my 3 easy steps into our Signatures, ;) the word will spread even quicker :)

I think THD could really help push HD formats to retailers who currently stock HD. Half the stock codes and less confusion are big advantages to some retailers.

I wish Warner would just go HD DVD only again, but I can deal with this.

Besides, it's all getting too silly to take seriously on a daily basis.

And precisely why most of the HD DVD camp have publicly said it's not necessary. Everyone know's TL-51 is nothing but PR, since Sony's favorite bluray drum to beat is capacity.

It will be interesting to see how Disney make use of BD50 on their upcoming 'Pirates' releases. As we know the main movie is on a BD50 with most of the extras on a seperate BD25.

Disney seem to think they need 75GB for each of these releases. If only you had been there when that crazy decision was made!

Perhaps you should give them a call. Might save them some time and money. :rolleyes:

It will be interesting to see how Disney make use of BD50 on their upcoming 'Pirates' releases. As we know the main movie is on a BD50 with most of the extras on a seperate BD25.

Disney seem to think they need 75GB for each of these releases. If only you had been there when that crazy decision was made!

Perhaps you should give them a call. Might save them some time and money. :rolleyes:


I am extremely glad at Disney's decision for both Pirates to use two discs at 75GB's. I'm hoping this trend continues with all other Disney films.

I guess the real question is what stinker movies will Warner be releasing in June and July on a HD15/BD25 disk, and will they use the HD15 master for the BD25 :eek:

If I didn't know better, I would say Warner is going to try to make a serious run for the 'worst encode' crown.

Warner is already well in the lead in that race.

Uh, we all know that Warner has some of the best encodes out there. Kiss Kiss Bang Bang is a HD15 that looks great. And we all know that it's Sony, Fox, and Lionsgate that have released some of the worst looking transfers ever. With all of the viral marketing by the Blu-ray side, it seems that the mods should put a big heading on all of the threads for any newcomers to not believe what they read on these threads. While there is some misinformation on both sides, everyone that has been here a long time knows the truth.

Kiss Kiss Bang Bang is a HD15 that looks great.

KKBB is only 103' long and does not have a lot of high-motion scenes. And the HD side has no extras at all.

And we all know that it's Sony, Fox, and Lionsgate that have released some of the worst looking transfers ever.

Are you saying you want The Matrix to look like House of Flying Daggers? ;)

With all of the viral marketing by the Blu-ray side, it seems that the mods should put a big heading on all of the threads for any newcomers to not believe what they read on these threads. While there is some misinformation on both sides, everyone that has been here a long time knows the truth.

I think I've accrued enough credibility during the last year to not worry about attacks such as the one above.




The facts speak for themselves:

Fact: Cinram has given a readiness schedule for 15/25 and 30/25 discs but not for 30/50.

Fact: A Paramount consultant has indicated there is a yet-unsolved "capacity issue" with Total HD, which cannot accomodate BD50.

Fact: Warner has been consistently using the same video encodes for BD and HD. Differences between formats have been limited to audio used (TrueHD for Superman Returns or Lady in the Water; TrueHD/PCM for The Departed).

Fact: any title with 30 > disc size > 25 won't fit the BD side of a Total HD.

KKBB is only 103' long and does not have a lot of high-motion scenes. And the HD side has no extras at all.



Are you saying you want The Matrix to look like House of Flying Daggers? ;)



I think I've accrued enough credibility during the last year to not worry about attacks such as the one above.




The facts speak for themselves:

Fact: Cinram has given a readiness schedule for 15/25 and 30/25 discs but not for 30/50.

Fact: A Paramount consultant has indicated there is a yet-unsolved "capacity issue" with Total HD, which cannot accomodate BD50.

Fact: Warner has been consistently using the same video encodes for BD and HD. Differences between formats have been limited to audio used (TrueHD for Superman Returns or Lady in the Water; TrueHD/PCM for The Departed).

Fact: any title with 30 > disc size > 25 won't fit the BD side of a Total HD.


All this is common sense. I can't believe some people simply can't understand it. If I'm spending $25 or more on an HD-DVD or Blu-Ray disc, especially after the crappy early releases become a thing of the past, I want to see BD50's in every Blu-Ray release with increasingly better quality as encoding improves.... HD-DVD and VC-1 can look great, however AVC encoded to fit BD-50 can look even better. This move by Warner is a huge step backwards which does cripple once again Blu-Ray even further by now only being able to use single layer for the encodes..Those happy with this move are probably the same people who didn't want to see the dual layer DVD-9 become the standard for SD-DVD's...

If Warner truly wants to be neutral they should honor their consumers and ditch this combo and also ditch HD-DVD/DVD combos and start releasing on HD30 and BD50 discs. With proper features.

Man, Warner is usually so good on their home video releases... this is gonna screw things royally.

This really sucks. Well I'm not going to buy those THD Discs and everyone else should. That's the only way to get rid of this stupid idea.

I find this whole thread rather amusing. Originally, I was against THD, but the more I think about it, the more it appeals to me. As long as the picture on the HD side doesn't suffer, I don't have a problem with it.
J

I will never....NEVER...NEVER...NEVER...NEVER...EVER...buy THD. There goes my dream movies TLOR trilogy and 2001 a space odyssey.

I find this whole thread rather amusing. Originally, I was against THD, but the more I think about it, the more it appeals to me. As long as the picture on the HD side doesn't suffer, I don't have a problem with it.
J

The capacity of the HD DVD side will effectively be 25GB as, presumably, the encode will only be done once to cover both formats. Whether cutting 5GB off the capacity of HD DVD makes any visible difference remains to be seen.

The more I think about it the more brainless the idea becomes. I think we may have the next 'Ford Edsel'.

The capacity of the HD DVD side will effectively be 25GB as, presumably, the encode will only be done once to cover both formats. Whether cutting 5GB off the capacity of HD DVD makes any visible difference remains to be seen.

Well gee, thank you for stating the obvious-I could never have figured it out for myself. :rolleyes:
J

At what point do all these layers become too thick to work in the PS3?

...

If Blu-ray sales move to a 3:1 lead it will mean 75% of HD disc buyers will be forced by Warner Bros. to buy a product they do not want.

...

And for that privilege we get to pay more $$$ for what looks like more-and-more an inferior encode. Screw that ...

I was a proponent of the THD at first, but more money for a neutered product? No thanks. :mad:

What's the big deal? Isn't 25GB enough space for most movies with an AVC encode and DD+? I thought it was only Sony that was adamant about using Mpeg-2 and PCM, and since they won't use THD until they are economically forced to go neutral, it's not an issue.

If Warner truly wants to be neutral they should honor their consumers and ditch this combo and also ditch HD-DVD/DVD combos and start releasing on HD30 and BD50 discs. With proper features.

I completely agree. That's what R&B Films did with Chronos. They aimed to get the max out of each format. That's the way to go, everything else is a compromise on HD video and audio quality (and after all, that was the whole point of HD in the first place: quality).

I completely agree. That's what R&B Films did with Chronos. They aimed to get the max out of each format.
No they didn't. They used MPEG2 on the HD DVD, and then blamed the format for the fact that it looks so bad.
J

The more the guy for R&B films talked, the more I became concerned that he didn't have a firm grasp of technology involved here. Nothing personal against him. Maybe he's a great business guy, or maybe he's a great artistic type. But I hope he has a good advisor on these projects helping him make technology decisions, because it was clear he had a lot of misconceptions.

Is there a chance that Warner is using TotalHD as a way to strong arm the Blu-ray side into a better deal on Blu-ray discs? .... kind of a 'Give us a better deal or we'll come out with these discs that cripple your capacity, keep HD DVD around, and make this format war even more confusing than it already is!!!'

Well I sincerely hope all BD only folks will take to the streets and publicly destroy all the inferior BD-25's you already own in a furious interpretive dance that fully expresses your scorn for this move. :rolleyes:

Come on! Didn't Warner already release BDs that were identical in size and features to the HD DVDs anyway?

It would be funny if the HD DVD side could scratch and the BD side was scratch resistant. That would open consumer's eyes real fast.


I can just hear them now:


"I like the Blu-Ray side because it never has any scratches."

"Yeah, me too."

It would be funny if the HD DVD side could scratch and the BD side was scratch resistant. That would open consumer's eyes real fast.


I can just hear them now:


"I like the Blu-Ray side because it never has any scratches."

"Yeah, me too."

Exactly what is the consumer using their disks for other than movie-watching?
HD-DVD doesn't scratch any more easily than a DVD or a CD, I would guess the consumer is accustom to handling those to formats by now.

I remember when DVD first debuted, everyone said it would fail in the rental market because you couldn't kick them around like good ole VHS. There were even FUD, rumors that Blockbuster had to pitch them after six rentals, and was going to dump them for that reason.

I guess that didn't happen, in fact Netflix wouldn't even exist were it not for those surprisingly durable, highly portable little platters.

The capacity of the HD DVD side will effectively be 25GB as, presumably, the encode will only be done once to cover both formats. Whether cutting 5GB off the capacity of HD DVD makes any visible difference remains to be seen.

The more I think about it the more brainless the idea becomes. I think we may have the next 'Ford Edsel'.

How much does the audio take up? Perhaps they could make a 30GB HD DVD version and reduce extras and skimp on the audio to make it 25GB BD...same video on both, different audio and extras.

I don't like THD in general since it complicates, rather than simplifies things. IMO.

Exactly what is the consumer using their disks for other than movie-watching?
HD-DVD doesn't scratch any more easily than a DVD or a CD, I would guess the consumer is accustom to handling those to formats by now.

I remember when DVD first debuted, everyone said it would fail in the rental market because you couldn't kick them around like good ole VHS. There were even FUD, rumors that Blockbuster had to pitch them after six rentals, and was going to dump them for that reason.

I guess that didn't happen, in fact Netflix wouldn't even exist were it not for those surprisingly durable, highly portable little platters.

Scratches affect HD DVDs much more than regular DVDs.

am I the only one who thinks there is a little funny irony in Warner forcing two camps that should have settled their differences a couple years ago to walk around in the same pair of clown-pants now?

no, almost as bad as bad a joke as dual players

Is there a chance that Warner is using TotalHD as a way to strong arm the Blu-ray side into a better deal on Blu-ray discs? .... kind of a 'Give us a better deal or we'll come out with these discs that cripple your capacity, keep HD DVD around, and make this format war even more confusing than it already is!!!'

can't see how that would work. Aren't they shooting themselves to PO BD? Warner will look bad if it is sub par and Warner will be the ones losing in sales if people are not buying. They also can't keep HD DVD afloat by themselves.

Well gee, thank you for stating the obvious-I could never have figured it out for myself. :rolleyes:
J

That's why I explained it for you. Glad I could help. :)

How much does the audio take up? Perhaps they could make a 30GB HD DVD version and reduce extras and skimp on the audio to make it 25GB BD...same video on both, different audio and extras.

I don't like THD in general since it complicates, rather than simplifies things. IMO.

And this is exactly why no Blu-Ray supporter should support this TotalHD garbage. Especially when the format you support has double the capacity on one disc which could be used for audio, video, and extra's...

i seriously hope warner dig its own grave with these THD discs. i will never ever buy those discs that is for sure i would rather watch vhs then this.

i know there are a lot of WEAK people who will buy Those THD anyway. but not me that is for sure.


Matrix gets released tomorrow on THD and you will be the first out the door and at the store.

They aren't, they are favoring it. (Since you must be referring to HD DVD)

Well I am starting to see this as Warner actually being HD DVD exclusive, but they are being nice and giving you a bonus Bluray side with your purchase. HD DVD supporters won't notice a difference.

If it was favoring HD DVD it would release all the movies that BD is holding back.

Even though you're right, good luck convincing hard core BD supporters.

They are addicted to the notion that massive space and massive bandwith are requirements for top tier picture quality.

Exactly, they hate the fact that HD DVD will have the larger side. The are having a problem of "Disc Envy".

I will not buy THD disks. Heck, I don't even buy Finding Nemo since it has a full screen version on it. Why do I want to spend money on something I won't watch or use at all? This THD thing is anti-consumers.

Studio Support on one side or the other is "anti-consumer". Forcing a format on loyal gamers is "anti-consumer". Warner is proconsumer allowing them to have a choice.

Exactly what is the consumer using their disks for other than movie-watching?
HD-DVD doesn't scratch any more easily than a DVD or a CD, I would guess the consumer is accustom to handling those to formats by now.

I remember when DVD first debuted, everyone said it would fail in the rental market because you couldn't kick them around like good ole VHS. There were even FUD, rumors that Blockbuster had to pitch them after six rentals, and was going to dump them for that reason.

I guess that didn't happen, in fact Netflix wouldn't even exist were it not for those surprisingly durable, highly portable little platters.

I actually like to throw my DVD's into a sandbox of well "sand". Then let my kids use them for their sand castles. I really need to get that Blu-ray thing.

Because that is what studios really want is for the consumer to not have to rebuy a disk?

I can't believe Warner to be this stupid, I wonder who was the genius behind THD. :rolleyes:

Studio Support on one side or the other is "anti-consumer". Forcing a format on loyal gamers is "anti-consumer". Warner is proconsumer allowing them to have a choice.

Pro-consumer would be giving someone the choice of whether to buy one format or the other making sure they utilize the technology at their disposal to the max. Anti-consumer would be to dumb down releases to the lowest common denominator sacrificing quality and placing a higher price tag on it....You have to get your facts straight...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatpopsicle
Even though you're right, good luck convincing hard core BD supporters.

They are addicted to the notion that massive space and massive bandwith are requirements for top tier picture quality.



Exactly, they hate the fact that HD DVD will have the larger side. The are having a problem of "Disc Envy".

In his 'Pursuit of Happyness' review, this reviewer thinks that having 50GB of space is quite a useful thing.

All of the extras from the DVD have been preserved on the BD release as well, except they're ALL in high definition. This is what every studio should be doing with day and date IMO, at a minimum. With 50GBs of space, this disc doesn't have to contend itself with standard def extras. Even despite uncompressed sound and high bitrate video, the extras look great too.

http://www.hometheaterspot.com/htsthreads/dvd-review.php?sequence=1873

Warner can shove their THD format, I would rather that hd-dvd and blu ray co-exist so we get the very best out of each format, than put up with this compromised crap :mad:

So apparently you all aren't going to buy movies you would like to own because of this disc.

Well I'm going to buy the movies I want to own. Too bad for you all, this way I can play both versions when/if I get a Blu-Ray player.

Man, Warner is usually so good on their home video releases... this is gonna screw things royally.

This will just confuse people, and cancel everybody out. Then no format wins. :(

I just don't understand the reasoning behind coming out with TotalHD discs. If it's just to have your own proprietary part of this format war to try and get some royalties, I guess I can understand but really hate that move. If Warner is really just trying to reduce shelf space and appease the Brick and Mortar retail/rental stores while selling more discs, why wouldn't they just switch to backing only blu-ray and end this war once and for all. Sales go up and shelf space is reduced.

why wouldn't they just switch to backing only blu-ray and end this war once and for all. Sales go up and shelf space is reduced.


Hmmm? Could it be because they favor HD DVD and think it still has a future?

See it's comments like that which makes me hope HD DVD supporters go at this with an open mind, and see a good turn when they get one.

It would be funny if the HD DVD side could scratch and the BD side was scratch resistant. That would open consumer's eyes real fast.


I can just hear them now:


"I like the Blu-Ray side because it never has any scratches."

"Yeah, me too."


I would be even funnier if the HD-DVD side had lossless TruHD 5.1 sound, InHD interactivity, and internet features that the BD side couldn't utilize due to its limitations! That would open some consumers' eyes even faster! :D

Why is everyone(blu-ray) ripping on WB. Their trouble with BD-50 discs may have nothing to do with THD, just the fact the only Sony has been able to produce them so far. So even if they produced separate discs for each format, you might still get stuck with BD-25.

That being said however, I'd still like them separate so that I can have artwork on one side of the disc.

I would be even funnier if the HD-DVD side had lossless TruHD 5.1 sound, InHD interactivity, and internet features that the BD side couldn't utilize due to its limitations! That would open some consumers' eyes even faster! :D

Actually, I'd prefer that they include them on the disc and instead get a banner message that "Most of the features of this disc will not work on your player". :p

So apparently you all aren't going to buy movies you would like to own because of this disc.

Well I'm going to buy the movies I want to own. Too bad for you all, this way I can play both versions when/if I get a Blu-Ray player.

I love the fact that we are supposed to believe that MichaelHDDVD is an open minded consumer just waiting till Blu-ray drops its prices or does this or that.

Give me a break.

Hello pot, names kettle.

Why is everyone(blu-ray) ripping on WB. Their trouble with BD-50 discs may have nothing to do with THD, just the fact the only Sony has been able to produce them so far. So even if they produced separate discs for each format, you might still get stuck with BD-25.

That being said however, I'd still like them separate so that I can have artwork on one side of the disc.


Simple really - More money for less features

Why are you not ripping on them?