Friday the 23rd will see the launch of the PS3 across Europe and so with it the next gen war will finally kick off here. 1,000,000 units have been shipped to the strongest Playstation market outside Japan, in response Toshiba has announced a new hd-dvd player for the European market at a pretty competitive price.

How will the battle unfold.....discuss :)

Like it has in the U.S. since December, only more so.

I believe the HD DVD xbox360 add on was released in Europe this week.

Well, Im not sure they will be sold out, but i'm pretty sure they will sell well. I got the Wii for x-mas, but already looking forward to the PS3 (pre-ordered). And guess what, it will mainly be used for movie watching :) the games i want for it won't be released until next year (GT5). And since around 70 % of the movies released is region free there's a lot of movies i'm gonna buy from the US. I stopped buying DVDs 1 year ago in anticipation of this machine.

I'm 34 years old and have a decent income and work in the City in London. I actually don't know anyone that has a HD DVD player or Xbox 360. But about 3/10 friends are getting the PS3 and they've all heard about blu ray, noone has actually heard about HD DVD, they think thats blue ray hehe.

And I really don't care about the great old movies that Universal has, as all the old movies i want i have on DVD and will not spend money replacing them yet, i'll spend the money on great blockbusters which both me and my wife enjoy. And I'll be buying all pixar and disney movies again.

Now im just waiting for the new Samsung 46" 1080p to be released in April and the future looks pretty blue :)

News from the front in terms of the Euro launch:

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=23523

I believe the HD DVD xbox360 add on was released in Europe this week.

The HD DVD addon was released some weeks ago. The reviews for it are mixed, most complain about lack of HDMI and the loud sound from the 360 to use it for movies, although they say it's a cheap way to get HD.

I'm shure that the fact that the european PS3 is a bit downgraded in comparison to the units released in the rest of the world didn't go unoticed in the gaming community.

This could impact initial sales.

I don't expect queues outside stores next friday.

I believe the HD DVD xbox360 add on was released in Europe this week.
Definitely not true. Amazon.co.uk shows the release date of the Xbox 360 HD DVD add-on as December 1, 2006.

The 360 add on was the primary reason HD DVD took the lead in the waning months of 2006 four to one in disc sales in the UK (a bit more than 8K to a bit under 2K as I recall).

However, the PS3 launch, if it does even come close to selling out, is very likely to bring the Blu-ray numbers way up. Unlike the USA, HD DVD has not had time to get entrenched in Europe, and such small numerical leads will likely vanish overnight if 200,000+ PS3s get sold.

Also note that relative pricing on high definition discs in Europe is equal or perhaps even lower than in the USA. Glancing at some online European retailers, it looks like people in the EU pay about the same amount as Americans do for high definition discs, counting for conversion rates, even factoring in the much higher taxation, so Europeans are much less likely to go into sticker shock at the price of high definition discs IMO.

I'm shure that the fact that the european PS3 is a bit downgraded in comparison to the units released in the rest of the world didn't go unoticed in the gaming community.

This could impact initial sales.

I don't expect queues outside stores next friday.

Well I really couldn't care less if i can't play my old PS2 games on it right from the start, i still have the PS2. It's not as if it will stop working when the PS3 arrives in the house.

That is the downgrade, performance is not downgraded in any way.

Definitely not true. Amazon.co.uk shows the release date of the Xbox 360 HD DVD add-on as December 1, 2006.

Im not sure if that is correct. Could be though, but was not released in Norway until a few weeks ago.

I'm shure that the fact that the european PS3 is a bit downgraded in comparison to the units released in the rest of the world didn't go unoticed in the gaming community.

Well, the rest of the world will have that same version shortly, so Europeans needn't feel cheated in that sense. Frankly I'm going to 'upgrade' my PS3 to it sometime soon.

Lower power consumption, simplified chipset, upscaling on all the 'key' game titles... that's my kind of system. Granted that's only if all my PS2 games play on it, but I have decently high hopes for that.

I personally don't view it as a downgrade at all, pending the full B/C list though of course.

xbdestroya,

News from the front in terms of the Euro launch:

The question is not the initial sales burst, but how it will continue to sell once all the hardcore types buy it. The NA sales numbers are not pretty and if Sony sees sales drops in Europe similar to those in NA, Sony would have to do something, maybe dropping the price.

well the lack of decent games is holding back sales as there are other systems with some decent titles. I would expect PS3 to really pick up once MGS4 etc are released. System just quickly needs a killer ape and its away.

xbdestroya,



The question is not the initial sales burst, but how it will continue to sell once all the hardcore types buy it. The NA sales numbers are not pretty and if Sony sees sales drops in Europe similar to those in NA, Sony would have to do something, maybe dropping the price.

I guess they will be dropping the price after they have introduced to all regions, at least they are able to reduce price somewhat after the "downgrade". Anyway, i think it eventually it will sell very well. But because the lack of "big" games for it could be slow.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see sales of HD movies in both format the next few months in Europe. I'm pretty sure we'll see the same as the US is seeing now.

My guess is that Sony is going to do the same thing in Europe as they did in Japan and the US: sell the PS3 at whatever price the market will bear in the opening days of release in order to keep losses per unit down as much as possible.

They must know that the $599US/£425/599EUR price point is too high for mass market. I don't think that's the point. They're undoubtedly making PS3s for significantly less than they were at initial launch.

I fully expect Sony to announce a "surprise" price drop within 2-3 months once the European initial demand at the higher price point starts to flag. As soon as they can get away with it without aggravating their EU fanbase. They'll never hint at this, of course (to avoid the Osborne effect), but the evidence all points in the same direction.

They're undoubtedly making PS3s for significantly less than they were at initial launch.

But still at a 'significant' loss to themselves as well.

Since SCE has a stated goal of reaching expense/profit parity by close of fiscal '08, I'd be surprised if they got overly aggressive on the pricing side this early on. The thing is expensive, and that is hurting it, but I don't think the time for price cuts has come yet. It'll come when there's resonable expectation that there's plenty of software people would pick up along with it.

Icemage,

I fully expect Sony to announce a "surprise" price drop within 2-3 months once the European initial demand at the higher price point starts to flag

Well, if the NA market is any indication, interest flagged almost immediately, so there might be a really quick price drop.

Well, if the NA market is any indication, interest flagged almost immediately, so there might be a really quick price drop.
I agree.

However, they could not drop the price on the PS3 in Japan or the USA prior to the EU launch. It would have jeopardized their initial sales revenue from Europe, since EU buyers would have expected a lower price (which, multiplied by 1,000,000 units, ends up being a lot of money left on the table, as I'm sure you'll agree).

Does that make more sense?

icemage,

you are exactly right. Personally, I think Sony has a big problem on its hands with the PS3. It will be very interesting to see what they do and how it all plays out.

Well, if the NA market is any indication, interest flagged almost immediately, so there might be a really quick price drop.

I speculate there will be no price drop until the holidays (novemberish), and there will only be a price drop if the 360 releases the hdmi version with a larger harddrive.

Oh, and the downgrade???

So, adding upconverting, and fixing problems with playback of interlaced titles is a downgrade? Damn, people will complain about anything.

icemage,

you are exactly right. Personally, I think Sony has a big problem on its hands with the PS3. It will be very interesting to see what they do and how it all plays out.

How come you think they have a problem with the PS3? Most financial analysts believe the PS3 will eventually be the winner in the console war by 2010. Do you not think Sony is planning longer forward than a couple of years? Also do you have more information than a financial analyst who has access to some decent research?

Its not just PS3 that has lower sales than anticipated. Nintendo Wii knocked out both the 360 and the PS3, microsoft has adjusted down the sales of the 360 as well. Btw, PS2 is still the best selling console still. In the long run however the Wii will lose it's flavour, i've got the Wii and must admit im a bit bored with it already.

Jiffylush,

Oh, and the downgrade???

I never said anything about the downgrade.

Harol,

Btw, PS2 is still the best selling console still

Quite true, and this is relevant how since we are discussing the ps3? Also, the fact that the PS2 continues to outsell the PS3 by large margins should concern Sony as the PS3 is supposed to replace the PS2.

How come you think they have a problem with the PS3?

Well, let us see, back to back decreases of 50% in sales volume in NA. Sales well below expectations. If the websites are to be believed, few PS3 exclusive games.

Most financial analysts believe the PS3 will eventually be the winner in the console war by 2010.

Ah yes, financial analysts are invariably right? Hmm, tell that to Enron investors. Tell that to all the people who invested in the Dot.com bubble before it collapsed. Analysts are not always right.

Do you not think Sony is planning longer forward than a couple of years?

I am sure that they do have a long term plan. But again, what does that have to do with what is being discussed, which is the relative poor sales performance of the ps3. I am sure that Sony is going to do what it has to to sell the PS3.

Also do you have more information than a financial analyst who has access to some decent research?

No, but the sales numbers are not pretty. Explain to me how back to back drops of 50% are a good thing.

Its not just PS3 that has lower sales than anticipated.

Again true, but given the hype and the projections from Sony, it is something of a bigger deal.

The Wii is a freaking fade. Everybody knows this ...its $249 and a lot sales are impulse buys. It will not have a long life span like the PS2. The xbox360 is somewhere between the Wii and the PS3. Already, Microsoft is planning refresh models. Rumor has it they will release a model with HDMI and a bigger hard drive in May or sometime before Chirstmas. Even with the update, it falls short of the PS3 because it will still use a DVD as their optical format. They will eventually have to update it to a next gen optical format whether its a Blu-ray or HD DVD. So we are talking about at least two refreshes here before the xbox is on par with the PS3 in terms of technology. My question to users is why bother with multiple refresh when you can be set for years with the PS3??

No, but the sales numbers are not pretty. Explain to me how back to back drops of 50% are a good thing.


Its not a good thing but it could be explain nonetheless. There are VIRTUALLY no games for the PS3 in February. If you are not into HD movies, who in their right mind would buy a $599 game console with just two good game titles? With more games coming out, the PS3 will sell better. Despite all this, the PS3 is selling better than the xbox360 in the same time frame. Last year at this time, the xbox360 had no competition either. The PS3 is in competition with the Wii and xbox360 ...both are much cheaper as a game console. When Sony made their initial calculation in terms of sales, they had no idea Wii would take off as it did.

The relevance of also mentioning the PS2 in PS3 discussions is that Sony makes money on that console, there will be a lot of people wanting to upgrade from PS2 to PS3 and old games are still playable, it steals volume from Xbox360 and Wii (mostly Wii).

Also if you had read the Sony yearly reports (which i has not hehe) you will find that they recon PS2 will outsell PS3 until 2008 which is not exactly a bad thing when that is a machine they make money on.

Anyway, you make a good point regarding financial analysts, and i guess i have to agree with you with regards to their historical performance :rolleyes: . But I still don't think the PS3 will ever be a problem for Sony. It might not be the success they wished it to be, but will still be a major selling console. Perhaps only 20 million instead of 30 million. I think the PS2 has now sold around 120 million units, pretty impressive. The Xbox sold 20 million :eek: .

Im not sure if that is correct. Could be though, but was not released in Norway until a few weeks ago.

Some matters of fact to clear up any confusion:

XBox 360 add-on Euro launch dates:

Germany: 22nd November 2006 (http://www.amazon.de/Microsoft-Xbox-360-HD-DVD-Player/dp/B000JSICBM/ref=pd_ka_4/028-9565660-5018127?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1174081731&sr=8-4)

France: 10th January 2007 (http://www.amazon.fr/Microsoft-Lecteur-DVD-HD-X360/dp/B000M06ALQ/ref=pd_ka_5/403-5730243-9902824?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1174081678&sr=8-5)

UK: 1st December 2006 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Xbox-360-HD-DVD-Player/dp/B000FNKQCE/ref=sr_1_16/026-2071781-1630847?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1174082017&sr=8-16)

SyHd,

Its not a good thing but it could be explain nonetheless.

I agree that there are several explanations, and you offer a few which are certainly valid.

Harol,

The relevance of also mentioning the PS2 in PS3 discussions is that Sony makes money on that console,

Quite true. But that is only important for Sony's financials, not in the selling and marketing of the PS3.

there will be a lot of people wanting to upgrade from PS2 to PS3 and old games are still playable, it steals volume from Xbox360 and Wii (mostly Wii).

Well I think we disagree here on a couple of points. I think that a CURRENT PS2 sale is a lost PS3 sale. Most people tend to keep their consoles for awhile. So, if I buy a 2 now, I wont be buying a 3 for a couple of years.

I could be wrong, but I dont really think that the Xbox and PS compete against eachother in the sense that the games appeal to different types. Xbox games tend to be FPS and the PS tend to having the fighting games like Final Fantasy. I think different people buy the different systems for the different games.

Also if you had read the Sony yearly reports (which i has not hehe) you will find that they recon PS2 will outsell PS3 until 2008 which is not exactly a bad thing when that is a machine they make money on.

You have a point, if this is what their internal models say.

But I still don't think the PS3 will ever be a problem for Sony. It might not be the success they wished it to be, but will still be a major selling console. Perhaps only 20 million instead of 30 million.

See, here is the thing. Perception can determine reality. If the buzz starts to be really negative, then people might not buy the PS3, and they might not sell 20 million units.

I think the PS2 has now sold around 120 million units, pretty impressive. The Xbox sold 20 million

The numbers for the PS2 are indeed impressive, but it has been around a lot longer.

I believe the HD DVD xbox360 add on was released in Europe this week.

It is already out.

I agree.

However, they could not drop the price on the PS3 in Japan or the USA prior to the EU launch. It would have jeopardized their initial sales revenue from Europe, since EU buyers would have expected a lower price (which, multiplied by 1,000,000 units, ends up being a lot of money left on the table, as I'm sure you'll agree).

Does that make more sense?

We won't see a price cut for the PS3 until November in NA and March in EU. Prices will be cut to $449 in the US, €449 in the EU, and £329 in the UK. My prediction.

A quick note: The Xbox software catalog is dominated by FPS games.

The PS2 has a much wider range of games. It's not "just fighting games". It also does sports games (Madden, MLB, Tony Hawk, FIFA Soccer, etc.), role playing games (Final Fantasy, Star Ocean, Xenosaga, Metal Gear Soliid, etc.), driving games (Gran Turismo, Need For Speed, Midnight Run, etc.), free roamers (Grand Theft Auto), platformers (Prince of Persia, God of War, etc.), and a host of other gametypes and genres. And naturally it does have the best fighting games (Tekken, Soul Calibur, Virtua Fighter, Marvel vs. Capcom, Street Fighter), the only notable absence of which is Dead or Alive, which is actually more of a softcore porn game than a legitimate fighting game if one were to be honest.

In reality if you look at the software lineup of the three new consoles, they're remarkably similar in tone to their predecessors. The Xbox 360, while doing a somewhat better job of getting quality non-FPS games (Ninja Gaiden Black, Viva Pinata, etc.) is still heavily focused on FPS gaming (which is why it does well in the USA and does almost nothing in Japan).

The Nintendo Wii is trying for innovation in gaming, much as the Gamecube before it tried to focus on strong gameplay. Unfortunately, it too is suffering from lack of execution. The games for the Wii so far are lackluster, and the case can be made that the "creative" new control scheme has actually hurt the quality of several games in its library.

Sony is still setting the tone for their software library, and as much as detractors may decry their current pricing, that pricing won't stay high forever, and in the mean time they continue to cultivate the relationships to get the wide variety of games that brought the PS2 to victory. They continue to make their software library diverse and approachable to everyone, not just a certain niche.

A quick note: The Xbox software catalog is dominated by FPS games.

...snip

Which is why it never took off in the EU. Also it is why the X360 is struggling in the EU now, they need to shift away from FPS to become successful in the EU. They just are not fun (not for me anyhow, I get bored very quickly, 30 mins to 1 hour, when playing Halo or GeoW) for many in EU, we like sports games (Pro Evo!), RPG (FF), and some other random stuff, generally something that will make you think rather than zillion hour long frag-sessions.

Which is why it never took off in the EU. Also it is why the X360 is struggling in the EU now, they need to shift away from FPS to become successful in the EU. They just are not fun (not for me anyhow, I get bored very quickly, 30 mins to 1 hour, when playing Halo or GeoW) for many in EU, we like sports games (Pro Evo!), RPG (FF), and some other random stuff, generally something that will make you think rather than zillion hour long frag-sessions.

Yeah probably true. Only FPS i bothered playing all the way was Halo on PC. However i've spent hours and hours driving in GT, and snowboarding on SSX :). Actually i'm now playing Zelda on the Wii (partly the reason i bought the Wii) and must say the Zelda series is probably the best games ever made. Well this was a bit OT :)

Anyway, the format war is now starting in Europe, i'm getting my PS3 in a week + and i will probably buy quite a few BD discs. I used to buy every DVD before i wanted to watch. Usually bought 4-8 discs a month. So I'm just started checking out websites for BD movies. And I saw MI series box set.....WOW. Need to get my new 46" soon.

I'm pretty sure BD sales will be 3:1 ratio in Europe after a couple of months, no matter how well or poor the sales of the PS3 is in Europe. People who want a BD player will buy the PS3. Like me they've just waited for it to arrive as I think paying £1000 is a bit to steep for a non-perfect BD player.

A quick note: The Xbox software catalog is dominated by FPS games.

The PS2 has a much wider range of games. It's not "just fighting games". It also does sports games (Madden, MLB, Tony Hawk, FIFA Soccer, etc.), role playing games (Final Fantasy, Star Ocean, Xenosaga, Metal Gear Soliid, etc.), driving games (Gran Turismo, Need For Speed, Midnight Run, etc.), free roamers (Grand Theft Auto), platformers (Prince of Persia, God of War, etc.), and a host of other gametypes and genres. And naturally it does have the best fighting games (Tekken, Soul Calibur, Virtua Fighter, Marvel vs. Capcom, Street Fighter), the only notable absence of which is Dead or Alive, which is actually more of a softcore porn game than a legitimate fighting game if one were to be honest.

In reality if you look at the software lineup of the three new consoles, they're remarkably similar in tone to their predecessors. The Xbox 360, while doing a somewhat better job of getting quality non-FPS games (Ninja Gaiden Black, Viva Pinata, etc.) is still heavily focused on FPS gaming (which is why it does well in the USA and does almost nothing in Japan).

The Nintendo Wii is trying for innovation in gaming, much as the Gamecube before it tried to focus on strong gameplay. Unfortunately, it too is suffering from lack of execution. The games for the Wii so far are lackluster, and the case can be made that the "creative" new control scheme has actually hurt the quality of several games in its library.

Sony is still setting the tone for their software library, and as much as detractors may decry their current pricing, that pricing won't stay high forever, and in the mean time they continue to cultivate the relationships to get the wide variety of games that brought the PS2 to victory. They continue to make their software library diverse and approachable to everyone, not just a certain niche.

Those are stereotypes I'm not sure are true any longer.

About 90% of the titles will be the same on the PS3 and the xbox360. If you don't like the 360 catalogue, you probably won't like the PS3 catalogue either, because the PS3's games are often ports from the 360.


BTW, The biggest selling titles out right now on both systems are shooters. The most highly anticipated titles in both systems are probably MGS4, for the PS3 and Halo3 for the 360. Both of those are shooters.

Beyond that, Rainbow 6 et al. will be out on both systems.

Harol,

Yeah probably true. Only FPS i bothered playing all the way was Halo on PC. However i've spent hours and hours driving in GT

See, it is all a matter of preference. I love Halo, and can play for hours. I have tried the driving games, but I get bored pretty quickly, maybe because I spend so much time in the car. I once tried Final Fantasy, and I admit that was kind of fun.

About 90% of the titles will be the same on the PS3 and the xbox360. If you don't like the 360 catalogue, you probably won't like the PS3 catalogue either, because the PS3's games are often ports from the 360. That's true for now, as it is at the start of every generation.

Once the userbase picks up and development tools mature, expect it to go back to the way it's always been with Sony pushing out a wide variety of interesting, innovative, and exclusive titles for the Playstation like Flow and Little Big Planet.

Exclusives are only important when they're good, and you get those good games by taking chances and promoting new talent. Anyone can take the microsoft approach and throw cash at a known hit to convince them to go multiplatform, however all you usually end up doing is creating mediocrity.

Friday the 23rd will see the launch of the PS3 across Europe and so with it the next gen war will finally kick off here. 1,000,000 units have been shipped to the strongest Playstation market outside Japan, in response Toshiba has announced a new hd-dvd player for the European market at a pretty competitive price.

How will the battle unfold.....discuss :)PS3 will tank. It is tanking in the US and in Japan - both which are receiving heavy subsidies. Add to that the fact that many PS2 games will not play in the PS3 (by removing PS2 emulation chip), and you have a recipe for disaster. In the UK the price is $825. At that price PS3 will most definitely tank.

Why Sony completely trashed their gaming franchise by trying to corner the next gen optical market is beyond me...

People who believe the PS3 is futureproof have swallowed a large dose on Sony marketing, IMO.Especially those that reply to this with "But, but, its got Cell processors!" The only thing setting it apart is the Blu Ray drive.

Look through any game review sites and you won't find any instances of the PS3 version of a game outperforming the xbox 360 graphically. I suggest people who think the PS3 is the most tecnically advanced platform should read this comparison written by a game developer
http://www.hardcoreware.net/reviews/review-348-1.htm
By not including enough memory or bandwidth between the cell processors, Sony have already limited the PS3 out of the starting gate.
It will become increasingly evident through the course of 2007 that gamers can get the same gaming experience from the xbox360 for considerably less money.

PS3 will tank. It is tanking in the US and in Japan - both which are receiving heavy subsidies. Add to that the fact that many PS2 games will not play in the PS3 (by removing PS2 emulation chip), and you have a recipe for disaster. In the UK the price is $825. At that price PS3 will most definitely tank.

Why Sony completely trashed their gaming franchise by trying to corner the next gen optical market is beyond me...

of course it's tanking everywhere, as you say...............

btw. with software emulation PS3 will be able to play 1000 european PS2 games, with more games later with firmware updates.....

ohh yes, UK prices, that's why it's MOST PREORDERED console EVER ! :) 6x times more than xbox360

Marek

of course it's tanking everywhere, as you say...............Marek

The desperation in these HD-DVD supporters is pretty telling :rolleyes:

PS3 is selling more units in a week than total HD-DVD standalone and add-ons in a month (and probably in two months or more - who the heck knows those Hd-DVD players numbers?) and it's "failing"...if it is, then HD-DVD is long dead and gone already* :p

* HD-DVD probably sold 5k discs in the week of March 11, versus 24k for blu-ray...a 4:1 sales ratio...and this is BEFORE the release of Casino Royale....guess Fox was right when they predicted a 3.5:1 sales ratio, huh?

Btw, i think we ALL know what's gonna happen to HD-DVd once PS3 starts rolling in europe, right? right?

PS3 will tank. It is tanking in the US and in Japan -

Sales in the USA are healthy but definitely not stellar for a box that has no games (motorstorm, which is not one of those blockbuster games is ok, but only launched last week and its effects have not been counted yet) and is priced much higher than any other competitor....

in japan, however, sales of PS3 just DOUBLED to 44k units per week (just slightly behind wii and way beyond the PUNY xbox 360 with its 3k units sold per week,!)...let me say that again, Xbox 360 is selling less than 5000 units per week in japan compared to 44,000 per week for PS3 - how sad is THAT? :D

I wonder how many hd-dvd add-ons were sold in japan....50? :p

asj2006, sometimes it's really hard to not post something :) mainly if PS3 is tanking even on MARS or MOON :)

I can't wait for EURO madness next week ;) going to check midnight lunch here :)

And you are right about numbers....., CR first week numbers will put some fire here, that's for sure :)

Marek

People who believe the PS3 is futureproof have swallowed a large dose on Sony marketing, IMO.Especially those that reply to this with "But, but, its got Cell processors!" The only thing setting it apart is the Blu Ray drive.

Look through any game review sites and you won't find any instances of the PS3 version of a game outperforming the xbox 360 graphically. I suggest people who think the PS3 is the most tecnically advanced platform should read this comparison written by a game developer
http://www.hardcoreware.net/reviews/review-348-1.htm
By not including enough memory or bandwidth between the cell processors, Sony have already limited the PS3 out of the starting gate.
It will become increasingly evident through the course of 2007 that gamers can get the same gaming experience from the xbox360 for considerably less money.

You think you have seen the PS3 at its full potential by comparing ported PS3 games? ROFL. Wait until truly native PS3 games are out and then compare. Comparing ported titles for the PS3 to xbox360 native titles is not really fair is it?

The most sucssesfull console launch in the UK is the Wii at 105,000 units.
PS3 is expected to surpass this figure, over a fifth of the entire Europe allocation is for the UK market, indicators are showing strong demand. How the rest of Europe reacts I am unsure, but an analyst predicted 600,000 units would sell in the first week.

The most sucssesfull console launch in the UK is the Wii at 105,000 units.
PS3 is expected to surpass this figure, over a fifth of the entire Europe allocation is for the UK market, indicators are showing strong demand. How the rest of Europe reacts I am unsure, but an analyst predicted 600,000 units would sell in the first week.

I know we are small market, but last news are, there are more preorders here compare to number of units wich will come to Slovakia...

So I will not be surprised if PS3 will be sold out in few days around the europe...

Marek

You think you have seen the PS3 at its full potential by comparing ported PS3 games? ROFL. Wait until truly native PS3 games are out and then compare. Comparing ported titles for the PS3 to xbox360 native titles is not really fair is it?

Some of the newer titles have been planned for both consoles and are not ports. Is that fair enough?

I would say that, if the performance of the PS3 was vastly better than the xbox360, then we would have seen some evidence of it. It anything, the opposite is true. I would suggest reading the article, there was actually a more detailed one on Digg that compared actual processing statistics. If you have some knowledge of how computer/gaming hardware works, it is just not possible for the PS3 to outperform the xbox360. For starters, the graphics processor being used in the PS3 is actually older and slower than the one being used in the xbox360.
Sony need lots of exclusive games, thats the only way they'll swing it.

just the UKs sales of the ps3 will completely dwarths the whole of europes BD/HD-DVD standalones to date.

The price is pretty good, though a little expensive but the UK at present has high disposable income and we pay more for everything, just look at our fuel prices.

Most are expecting the PS3 to be the biggest selling console ever in the UK, and it does look like it will happen. seriously HD-DVD figures are about to be humiliated as far as disc sales go.

People who believe the PS3 is futureproof have swallowed a large dose on Sony marketing, IMO.Especially those that reply to this with "But, but, its got Cell processors!" The only thing setting it apart is the Blu Ray drive.

Look through any game review sites and you won't find any instances of the PS3 version of a game outperforming the xbox 360 graphically. I suggest people who think the PS3 is the most tecnically advanced platform should read this comparison written by a game developer
http://www.hardcoreware.net/reviews/review-348-1.htm
By not including enough memory or bandwidth between the cell processors, Sony have already limited the PS3 out of the starting gate.
It will become increasingly evident through the course of 2007 that gamers can get the same gaming experience from the xbox360 for considerably less money.

Ported games will look about the same. But some of the new titles, specifically MotorStorm, is one of the first (developed by the Cambridge U. group) which has started to demonstrate the SIMD capabilities across several SPEs. You won't see the equivalent on an XBOX 360 any time soon, unless MS does yet another SKU and puts a PhysX processor or two in it.

Some of the newer titles have been planned for both consoles and are not ports. Is that fair enough?

I would say that, if the performance of the PS3 was vastly better than the xbox360, then we would have seen some evidence of it. It anything, the opposite is true. I would suggest reading the article, there was actually a more detailed one on Digg that compared actual processing statistics. If you have some knowledge of how computer/gaming hardware works, it is just not possible for the PS3 to outperform the xbox360. For starters, the graphics processor being used in the PS3 is actually older and slower than the one being used in the xbox360.
Sony need lots of exclusive games, thats the only way they'll swing it.

Ilka is right about Motorstorm ...can you name a xbox360 game that is similar to Motorstorm graphically? Motorstorm is just scratching the surface of the PS3 graphical potential. Here is a game developer explaining how the PS3 process graphics and how the graphic card is not as important on the PS3 as on the xbox360:

That's ignoring the fact that the PS3's 256MB of main RAM is also fully accessible by the GPU for textures, vertex data and framebuffer and its efficient. The GPU can access both memories in parallel, thus yielding higher texture throughput than the 360. So the problem of divided memory is only if you need more data memory than graphics memory, but not the other way around. A game like Gears of War is dominated by texture memory so it would not be a problem to do on PS3. Its a closed environment game - it shouldn't require tons of physics and AI data.

I cant imagine right now what kind of game would need more data memory than graphics memory... maybe Chess Master? All games I've worked on in the past, graphics data was the largest memory hog.

360's strength in graphics is higher fillrate thanks to using 10MB embedded RAM (eDRAM) on the GPU. That means special effects that have high fillrate requirements such as explosions are faster on 360. There are some tradeoffs however for the eDRAM is limited in size it is not large enough to draw 720p with anti-aliasing (2X MSAA requires 14MB and 4X 28MB). This requires tiled rendering, drawing things multiple times which wastes processing time.

PS3's strength in graphics is having Cell to pre-process and prune geometry. This means you can do more complex geometry processing, the GPU is not alone in processing, and a lot of geometry never has to reach the GPU in the first place.

PS3 will tank.Care to tell us how many sales you predict and what will qualify as tanking? If they sell 300,000 players in the first month for all of Europe, will that qualify as tanking, in your opinion? If not, what number would qualify? It wouldn't surprise me if HD DVD has less than 20k players sold for Europe by the PS3 launch there.

I could start a poll asking how many sales people predict for the PS3 in Europe by the end of April so that people can't just use vague words about what they expect and then later claim that they predicted what happened by saying that the actual sales match their vague prediction, but I suspect that the poll would probably get deleted.

--Darin

Everyone should simply stop, as no one is going to convince the other side they are wrong. Asj and Marek the PS3 is by definition a success and no amount of evidence will change that even back to back 50% sales drops in NA and the fact that it sold fewer units than the gameboy advanced. And for the other side, tanking is not an appropriate term either. Simply state that in NA it is sales challenged, and leave it at that.

Asj and Marek the PS3 is by definition a success and no amount of evidence will change that even back to back 50% sales drops in NA and the fact that it sold fewer units than the gameboy advanced. I don't think the PS3 sold well in February, but since you used that example, I find it interesting that the XBOX360 got outsold by the gameboy advanced as recently as November and I don't see any month where the XBOX360 has been able to beat the PS2 (please don't bring up the price difference as that would invalidate the claim you just made about the PS3 vs the GBA :)).

--Darin

Care to tell us how many sales you predict and what will qualify as tanking? If they sell 300,000 players in the first month for all of Europe, will that qualify as tanking, in your opinion? If not, what number would qualify? It wouldn't surprise me if HD DVD has less than 20k players sold for Europe by the PS3 launch there.

I could start a poll asking how many sales people predict for the PS3 in Europe by the end of April so that people can't just use vague words about what they expect and then later claim that they predicted what happened by saying that the actual sales match their vague prediction, but I suspect that the poll would probably get deleted.

--Darin

Darin, if Sony had never made such wildly optimistic sales predictions, would that not have preemptively luffed the sails of all the armchair critics who are now calling them on the fact they haven't even come close to meeting them?

I would say that, if the performance of the PS3 was vastly better than the xbox360, then we would have seen some evidence of it. It anything, the opposite is true.

We already have evidence: Little Big Planet which was unveiled recently at GDC. The visuals are outstanding (almost looks like CG animation), and the physics simulations are top notch. Not only that the game looks FUN. I cant remember the last time I watched a gameplay vid that made me smile like LBP did. Taking LBP as a total package, nothing on the 360 side even comes close.

I would suggest reading the article, there was actually a more detailed one on Digg that compared actual processing statistics. If you have some knowledge of how computer/gaming hardware works, it is just not possible for the PS3 to outperform the xbox360.

I think it is an accepted fact by now that PS3 is more powerful than 360, however only the most talented (ie: willing to spend the time and money) devs will be able to extract that power.

For starters, the graphics processor being used in the PS3 is actually older and slower than the one being used in the xbox360.

that depends on the particular tasks. But without a doubt, CELL is quite a bit superiour to Xenon (or is it Xenos?)

Sony need lots of exclusive games, thats the only way they'll swing it.

The output of Sony WWS and 2nd party developers is much larger than that of MS exclusive studios. Have you seen what Sony WWS have lined up? Other than Halo 3, what does Microsoft Game studios have that is exciting beyond the standard FPS/shooter fare?

that depends on the particular tasks. But without a doubt, CELL is quite a bit superiour to Xenon (or is it Xenos?)

Quite a bit? Hyperbole much?

The output of Sony WWS and 2nd party developers is much larger than that of MS exclusive studios. Have you seen what Sony WWS have lined up? Other than Halo 3, what does Microsoft Game studios have that is exciting beyond the standard FPS fare?

You're right. There's an obvious surfeit of horse racing/dating sims, and turn-based RPGs featuring androgynous protagonists battling impossible numbers of mutant mecha-fairies on the 360 release schedule.

^^^

of course you cant dispute anything I posted. why do you even bother to respond.

^^^

of course you cant dispute anything I posted. why do you even bother to respond.

Please supply an independent evaluative source which supports your claim that Cell is "quite a bit superiour" (sic) to Xenon.

The second point is a matter of opinion, which I or anyone else can dispute, simply by stating our own. Your personal taste in software is hardly a universal standard, against which, all others must be judged.

You're right. There's an obvious surfeit of horse racing/dating sims, and turn-based RPGs featuring androgynous protagonists battling impossible numbers of mutant mecha-fairies on the 360 release schedule.It's hard to fit anything in the release schedule when it's packed to the brim with EA Sports Reiteration 200x (Now With New Jerseys!!!) and cookie-cutter first person shooters.

It's hard to fit anything in the release schedule when it's packed to the brim with EA Sports Reiteration 200x (Now With New Jerseys!!!) and cookie-cutter first person shooters.

If you really believe that's all the 360 catalog and upcoming release schedule has to offer, you obviously haven't really bothered to look.

Even if we were to presume that your claim is completely accurate, all those retreads and cookie-cutter titles must be more appealing in NA, than what's available for the PS3, given the current sales disparity.

If you really believe that's all the 360 catalog and upcoming release schedule has to offer, you obviously haven't really bothered to look.

Even if we were to presume that your claim is completely accurate, all those retreads and cookie-cutter titles must be more appealing in NA, than what's available for the PS3, given the current sales disparity.They're definitely more appealing in the US, that's why the playstation brand does much better in Europe, Japan, and Oceania. The rest of the world simply doesn't care about Madden.

And no, I don't believe that's all the 360 catalogue is. It also has Crackdown.

darin,

I don't think the PS3 sold well in February, but since you used that example, I find it interesting that the XBOX360 got outsold by the gameboy advanced as recently as November and I don't see any month where the XBOX360 has been able to beat the PS2 (please don't bring up the price difference as that would invalidate the claim you just made about the PS3 vs the GBA

I dont see your point, as I wasnt talking about the Xbox360. I was talking about people, like asj, who say that 127K units in Feb was actually pretty good, considering - insert reason of your choice. I just wish people would be honest and admit that the PS3 is selling below expectations. Let me ask, do YOU really think Sony is going to sell 6 million units by the end of the year? I think the much vaunted European launch is going to go much the same way as the NA and Japanese launch. They will sell a crapload of players in the first month to the hardcore types, and then demand is going to significantly drop off.

So, to answer your challenge about sales in Europe - First month they sell 500K units, second month they sell 250, and then they stabilize around 175K units a month.

Personally, I think the Xbox is a success pretty much only in America and I dont think they are ever going to be a force in Japan, and in Europe it will be close.

I was talking about people, like asj, who say that 127K units in Feb was actually pretty good, considering - insert reason of your choice.I'm on the side that believes that wasn't very good. I expected maybe 150k when thinking about it recently and so 127k was lower than even that, but think it will go up for March with some more releases (although I don't think "Motorstorm" is setting the world on fire). My XBOX360 example was pointing out how selling worse than the GBA by itself didn't necessarily mean that a product was selling poorly, given that the XBOX360 lost to it as recently as November.
Let me ask, do YOU really think Sony is going to sell 6 million units by the end of the year?I've felt that was unrealistic for quite a while and wondered why they kept using it. But then I also am surprised at how many they've been able to make with a product this close to the bleeding edge (blue laser diodes and the like). It seems like it would be an accomplishment to get even 3 million in users hands worldwide by the end of Q1 for a product like this, but given what Sony was claiming that would be disappointing in comparison to that. It will definitely be interesting to see how it does for Europe compared to the XBOX360, but agree with you about the XBOX360 in Japan. HD DVD looks like it is doing so poorly in Japan that I almost wonder about them pulling the plug there at some point in the not too distant future. Probably won't, but things don't look good for it to me and I'm not sure what ideas they have to try to turn things around there.

--Darin

It also has Crackdown.

And Viva Pinata, Dead Rising, Gears of War, Alan Wake, Forza 2, Mass Effect......are any of these titles cookie-cutter FPSs, or published by EA Sports?

And Viva Pinata, Dead Rising, Gears of War, Alan Wake, Forza 2, Mass Effect......are any of these titles cookie-cutter FPSs, or published by EA Sports?Is this where I list all the playstation titles that aren't horse racing/dating sims, and turn-based RPGs featuring androgynous protagonists battling impossible numbers of mutant mecha-fairies?

Lighten up, you'll live longer.

Please supply an independent evaluative source which supports your claim that Cell is "quite a bit superiour" (sic) to Xenon.

The second point is a matter of opinion, which I or anyone else can dispute, simply by stating our own. Your personal taste in software is hardly a universal standard, against which, all others must be judged.


I'm not going to get into this discussion. I did find this interesting though.

http://gametomorrow.com/blog/index.php/2007/03/07/cell-power-at-gdc-2007/

Is this where I list all the playstation titles that aren't horse racing/dating sims, and turn-based RPGs featuring androgynous protagonists battling impossible numbers of mutant mecha-fairies?

Lighten up, you'll live longer.

I thought it was obviously tongue in cheek...... sorry you didn't recognize that. However, re. PS3 software, the loss of so many formerly exclusive franchises cannot be denied, and I suspect the market for dating sims was somewhat limited outside Japan anyway.

darin,

but think it will go up for March with some more releases (although I don't think "Motorstorm" is setting the world on fire).

Personally, I would be amazed if they made 150K units in March. There doesnt seem to be a whole lot of buzz for the PS3 and it is just priced to high for the average person. That is why I think that once the hardcore types buy theirs, demand drops off significantly.

I've felt that was unrealistic for quite a while and wondered why they kept using it.

They keep using it, and declarations of victory, etc because they have to. If they were to come out and say that they are disappointed with the sales of the PS3 that would hurt them, and they put a lot of their eggs in this basket.

I don't think the PS3 sold well in February, but since you used that example,
--Darin

I don't think it sold that well either...it sold ok, not spectacular...however, again, the thing is the PS3 right now in NA is sorely lacking in games, a trait which should change as time passes.

In Japan, gundam and Virtua fighter (both japanase-type games) have created a surge in PS3 sales, DOUBLING it to 44k units per weeks, only slightly less than the 50k+ for the Wii (which obnviously is selling for a lot less money), and way beyond the 3000 units that xbox 360 managed.

I'm assuming as the games like lair, final fantasy, and whatever start rolling in to NA later this year we will see a strong spike in sales, especially if sony manages to cut the price slightly....

Please supply an independent evaluative source which supports your claim that Cell is "quite a bit superiour" (sic) to Xenon.

John Carmack said on a G4TV interview that CELL and PS3 in general is more powerful than 360.

The second point is a matter of opinion, which I or anyone else can dispute, simply by stating our own. Your personal taste in software is hardly a universal standard, against which, all others must be judged.

What does that have to do with the fact that Sony WWS is a lot bigger and will release more exclusive than MS game studios?

i found it pretty shocking that stores in europe expect to still have stock on hand even after filling the pre orders. guess they don't like games as much as we do?

John Carmack said on a G4TV interview that CELL and PS3 in general is more powerful than 360.

Carmack is no fan of the PS3 architecture. The consensus seems to be that PS3 has a modest, theoretical processing advantage over 360, which will require a substantial premium of resources to actually realize. I've never seen it professionally characterized as "quite a bit superiour to Xenon" anywhere.

What does that have to do with the fact that Sony WWS is a lot bigger and will release more exclusive than MS game studios?

This is a hypothetical, nothing more. I have as much "evidence" to support the contention that PS3 unit sales will never surpass those of 360, but I was responding specifically to this....

Other than Halo 3, what does Microsoft Game studios have that is exciting beyond the standard FPS/shooter fare?

....statement of personal opinion......which I would argue could honestly be held, only if you deliberately ignore the disparate titles currently at retail, scheduled for release, or available for download on XBOX Live marketplace.

Some of the newer titles have been planned for both consoles and are not ports. Is that fair enough?



Not only that, but the 360 is the primary development platform for a lot of titles.

John Carmack said on a G4TV interview that CELL and PS3 in general is more powerful than 360.



LOL

He is also said, to paraphrase, "that it's a bitch to develop for", referring to the PS3. Hardware doesn't exist in a vacuum, it requires a good development environment to properly leverage it's strengths. In that regard, the 360 has the PS3 trumped.

I thought it was obviously tongue in cheek...... sorry you didn't recognize that. However, re. PS3 software, the loss of so many formerly exclusive franchises cannot be denied, and I suspect the market for dating sims was somewhat limited outside Japan anyway.Once again, these would be the high profile, big money exclusives, right?

Why is it that people always talk as though exclusive titles are limited in number, and that once they're gone doom is upon us all? Half of them were never exclusive to begin with, they just had a staggered release across platforms, and the other half still have their primary fanbase on the original console.

In North America, for the period Nov 06-Feb 07 the PS3 has outsold the Xbox360 for it's respective launch months (Nov 05-Feb 06). The PS3 has also currently outperformed the launches of both the PS1 and the PS2 which both went on to become over 100 million system sellers. It would also seem that Xbox360 is on track to match Sony's sales in NA this time around which would be a major victory for them.

It's natural for everyone to scream "TANK" when Sony has the slightest of hiccups because they are the #1 company to beat when it comes to consoles. I like to call them "The Microsoft of the console world". Ironically, MS gets to know how it feels to be the underdog for once.

We can all speculate about future games, tech demos, lost exclusives, Euro markets, etc. etc. The only fact that remains is this. Based upon current data available to us, the PS3 is not tanking but is doing just fine as it has surpassed launch sales figures for PS1,PS2, and Xbox 360. That could change in 6 months and PS3 could be the biggest failure every designed.

I apologize for having to introduce actual fact into this speculative discussion

the comparison to earlier launches is not IMO not terribly appropriate for a couple of reasons. First, Sony projected BIG numbers. Therefore, those numbers are the benchmark, not what the Dreamcast, PS1, PS2, Xbox, or Xbox 380 sold.

the PS3 is NOT tanking but is doing rather well as it has surpassed launch sales figures for PS1,PS2, and Xbox 360.

If you want to believe that back to back drops of 50% in sales is doing rather well, so be it, but if that trend continues it will be a looooooooooooong time before Sony sells 100 million PS3s.

The comparison to previous console sales is extremely important when considering what the future of these consoles "might" hold. All I'm saying is this. Considering the data we have currently available, to say the PS3 is "tanking" is to say that 1 year ago, the Xbox360 was tanking. I believe we all know how that turned out. MS has shipped/sold over 10 million units and is on the way to having a much improved console this time around.

To say it is a disappointment to Sony that the PS3 won't hit projections is a no-brainer.

I never said it was tanking. I have said it is performing poorly, and it is. As to the past, at a certain level you have a point, but I think the dynamics have changed somewhat this time around.

There is more competition now, and in some respects, Sony has a lot more riding on the PS3 than it did on the PS2.

Once again, these would be the high profile, big money exclusives, right?

Why is it that people always talk as though exclusive titles are limited in number, and that once they're gone doom is upon us all? Half of them were never exclusive to begin with, they just had a staggered release across platforms, and the other half still have their primary fanbase on the original console.

OK, so you still have the FF and MGS series........for now. Rationalization doesn't change the fact that all else being equal, exclusives sell systems, and PS3 has failed to differentiate itself from 360 with the qualitative leap in graphics and game-play that was promised. How many PS2s were purchased to play GTA before it "staggered" onto XBOX? The dwindling numbers speak for themselves:

http://www.gamingtarget.com/article.php?artid=6657

If the PS3's current position is considered to be preforming poorly then Sony should not be worried in the least bit. Considering past histories with Xbox360, PS1, and PS2 they should have a very nice seller on their hands.

To continue the thread topic. Speculation about the future market.

PS3 is poised to do well in Europe by looking at past pre-order volumes and the current PS3 pre-order volume. As it was for North America, this will be a great boost to Blu-Ray in Europe. I predict the PS3 will continue to sell well there and overall it will advance the Blu-Ray format quite nicely.

Overall, the next-gen console war will probably end up closer to dead even this year between MS and Sony. I think we may all look back at this console as the time that Sony lost their edge. Much in the way that the N64 and Gamecube are looked upon for Nintendo. However, I believe Sony will have realized their ultimate goal of advancing the Blu-Ray format into mainstream adaptation.

spek,

PS3 is poised to do well in Europe by looking at past pre-order volumes and the current PS3 pre-order volume. As it was for North America, this will be a great boost to Blu-Ray in Europe. I predict the PS3 will continue to sell well there and overall it will advance the Blu-Ray format quite nicely.

We shall see. Personally, I think Europe will see the same pattern as it saw in NA and Japan. They will sell large numbers of units the first month or so, and then see huge drops in sales numbers.

If the PS3's current position is considered to be preforming poorly then Sony should not be worried in the least bit. Considering past histories with Xbox360, PS1, and PS2 they should have a very nice seller on their hands.


In the abstract, PS3 represents an incredible hardware value for any consumer interested in both HD movie playback, and gaming. The problem facing Sony, is perceived value in the infancy of the BD format, coupled with much more formidable competition from the alternative gaming consoles than what they faced in the last product cycle. Educating consumers about high definition realities ( no, DVD playback on your HDTV is not HD ) won't happen over night, and the ultimate outcome of the format war is, and will likely remain, undetermined for some time, notwithstanding the oft-repeated claims of some BD advocates.

Europe is a different universe from North America, in terms of HDTV installed base, so it doesn't seem unreasonable to conclude that gaming will be the prime mover in that market; more so, than NA. I believe brand loyalty and the halo effect of shiny new technology will only carry Sony so far, as the interactive presentation of their machine is essentially indistinguishable from its' most direct competitor. PS3 is also constrained by a comparative structural price disadvantage against both of its' market alternatives which cannot be overcome.

I believe the days of utter dominance by the PlayStation brand are over, and that the pie will be divided with more equanimity in this generation by necessity, if not desire. Increased competition can only benefit the consumer. If I'm wrong, and Nintendo or MS take the lion's share, it's very likely that arrogance and complacency will be their undoing next go-round. We've already seen that pattern repeated more than once.

i found it pretty shocking that stores in europe expect to still have stock on hand even after filling the pre orders. guess they don't like games as much as we do?

Well guess you have the read the full story then. Sony has supplied 1 million PS3s for the release. Would be quite impressive if they all were pre-ordered. Considering this is the most pre-ordered console ever in Europe, it's rather a good thing they also have consoles in stores after they have supplied pre-orders. Not like the Wii which could probably have doubled the sales if they had enough units on release.

the comparison to earlier launches is not IMO not terribly appropriate for a couple of reasons. First, Sony projected BIG numbers. Therefore, those numbers are the benchmark, not what the Dreamcast, PS1, PS2, Xbox, or Xbox 380 sold.



If you want to believe that back to back drops of 50% in sales is doing rather well, so be it, but if that trend continues it will be a looooooooooooong time before Sony sells 100 million PS3s.

Hi George, but wouldn't you say that Xbox360 sales have also tanked then? they have adjusted down their expected sales quite considerably lately. This is due to Wii which has exceeded everyones expectations.

So yes PS3 not selling as projected, but it is still matching 360 sales when that was released.

i found it pretty shocking that stores in europe expect to still have stock on hand even after filling the pre orders. guess they don't like games as much as we do?

maybe I missed it here somewhere, is there link to this ?

in eastern europe, mainly here in Slovakia, preorders numbers are double more than numbers of consoles which will arrive here......

so it will be fight to get one :)

Marek

Carmack is no fan of the PS3 architecture. The consensus seems to be that PS3 has a modest, theoretical processing advantage over 360, which will require a substantial premium of resources to actually realize. I've never seen it professionally characterized as "quite a bit superiour to Xenon" anywhere.

just give it up already. depending on the tasks, it can me modest or a huge advantage. according to the havok guys, havok 4.5 runs 5-10 faster than a triple core cpu that was compared to CELL. Physics simulations and AI routines are two things I can think of off the top of my head that XeCPU trails far behind in CELL.

This is a hypothetical, nothing more. I have as much "evidence" to support the contention that PS3 unit sales will never surpass those of 360, but I was responding specifically to this....


Ok then, out of all the exclusives that are to released this year by Microsoft game studios how many are shooters?

Harol,

Hi George, but wouldn't you say that Xbox360 sales have also tanked then? they have adjusted down their expected sales quite considerably lately. This is due to Wii which has exceeded everyones expectations

I have never said the PS3 sales tanked. I have said that the PS3 has sold significantly below Sony's public predictions. The Xbox isnt selling great, but there is a difference between the two. As you point out, MS acknowledges this, and revises their estimates downwards. Sony, OTOH still maintains they are going to sell 6 million units by the end of the year - in other words, there is no acknowledgement that things arent going as planned.

LOL

He is also said, to paraphrase, "that it's a bitch to develop for", referring to the PS3. Hardware doesn't exist in a vacuum, it requires a good development environment to properly leverage it's strengths. In that regard, the 360 has the PS3 trumped.

Which still doesn't change the fact that CELL is more powerful. Sure it will be easier to get nice results out of 360, but I fully expect the best looking games to be exclusive to PS3.

Ok then, out of all the exclusives that are to released this year by Microsoft game studios how many are shooters?

Nearly half of the 33 exclusives that have been released for 360 are not shooters. Constantly repeating a critique which may have had some legitimacy for the XBOX, doesn't make it so for the 360.

I have a question for you, wreckshop. Which console has twice as many exclusives as the other? ( hint: it isn't PS3 )


Which still doesn't change the fact that CELL is more powerful. Sure it will be easier to get nice results out of 360, but I fully expect the best looking games to be exclusive to PS3.

Another hypothetical. But even if we assume you're correct, what difference will it make? In the last generation, XBOX games consistently looked better than their counterparts on PS2.........so?

Nearly half of the 33 exclusives that have been released for 360 are not shooters. Constantly repeating a critique which may have had some legitimacy for the XBOX, doesn't make it so for the 360.

so more than half of 360 exclusives are shooters? well still sounds like 360 is a shooter platform to me then.

I have a question for you, wreckshop. Which console has twice as many exclusives as the other?

Welll obviously the 360 should, since it's been out A YEAR longer.

Another hypothetical. But even if we assume you're correct, what difference will it make? In the last generation, XBOX games consistently looked better than their counterparts on PS2.........so?

sooo....the best PS3 games will look better and have better physics simulations than the best 360 games? don't know what else you want me to say.

Friday the 23rd will see the launch of the PS3 across Europe and so with it the next gen war will finally kick off here. 1,000,000 units have been shipped to the strongest Playstation market outside Japan
Dunno if anyone else noticed this, but there won't be a million units for Europe. The units are spread among PAL-territories such as Europe, Middle-East, Australasia, New Zealand and Australia.

Here in Finland consumers are complaining like mad about the price of PS3. We're getting only the 60GB version and the Finnish price for that is 700 euros, i.e. 930 US dollars...

so more than half of 360 exclusives are shooters? well still sounds like 360 is a shooter platform to me then.

That's an interesting POV, since 360 has more non-shooter exclusives, than PS3 has in total.

Welll obviously the 360 should, since it's been out A YEAR longer.

PS3 is losing exclusives, while 360 is gaining them. Surely you're not attempting to spin that as par for the course?

sooo....the best PS3 games will look better and have better physics simulations than the best 360 games? don't know what else you want me to say.

That established precedent strongly suggests it won't help PS3 catch Wii, or 360.

Here in Finland consumers are complaining like mad about the price of PS3. We're getting only the 60GB version and the Finnish price for that is 700 euros, i.e. 930 US dollars...

Combined with reduced functionality, can you blame them?

There is no doubt about that PS3 will sell good in Europe initially.
But when the hype dies down and the “gadget freaks” have gotten their “fix” it is possible we will see slumbering sales.

I’m not into gaming, but have asked around among the before 20 years old gamers.
All the serious gaming in Europe is online. Your either into continues gaming, and have to spend hours every day to keep your position, and have no time for game machines. Or you are into ending games that start afresh every new day, because your parents have forbidden you to follow the continuous games, or your workload hinders you.
When I asked around, they where not very interested game consoles. Only thing that where mentioned was something about new gaming support in Vista mixed with the new x360 for online gaming, which I didn’t exactly get.
Many of the “gadget freaks” have already gotten their PS3 from US/Japan, so most gamers have had “hands on” experience with PS3 already.
It will also be interesting to see the gamers community’s reaction to the missing Emotion Engine and the limits to PS2 game compatibility.

When it comes to BD movies.
Those who buy the PS3 and initially buys a couple of movies, will soon find out its not all that great when they have watched them on their 37”- 42” HD TV which is the norm in Europe, and will soon find out they can nearly buy a game for the price of 2 BD movies.

DVD sales in Europe didn’t really take off before the DVD came in bargain bins I the food stores and the internet shop prices came down. Tape and Disk media in Europe have always been very rental based.

Remember also that PS3 is just under $1000 in Europe.
A bundle with x360 and Wii with games cost the same as a PS3.
Wii has nearly been impossible to get hold of. Are they going to dump massive loads of Wii’s and new x360’s in the stores just when PS3 preorders are fulfilled?

When the hype and news interest has died down and the preorders are filled, this will settle down, and the “format war” will be all about price on standalones and the slow transfer from SD. This will take a long time.

Well in a couple of weeks we'll know how it will fare. I think the conclusion will be that both PS3 and 360 are suffering because of the Wii. However i think the PS3 will sell enough to impact the sales of BD movies to such a degree that it BD movies will outsell HD DVD movies 2:1 or 3:1.

I assume in the context of this thread it is PS3 vs HD DVD players not vs 360 or Wii. I believe a lot of people have been waiting the PS3 as the first BD player (like me). I was tempted to buy a HD DVD player in the US this summer but thought i'd wait to see how the war played out. And right now i think the best bet is to buy a BD player in the form of a PS3. Next year, one can assess the situation, if HD DVD wins i'll buy a HD DVD player for $300, or if BD is the biggest format, i'll buy a new region A BD stand-alone player for $300.

Peace :D

Here in Finland consumers are complaining like mad about the price of PS3. We're getting only the 60GB version and the Finnish price for that is 700 euros, i.e. 930 US dollars...

here in Slovakia due strong slovak crown, the price is around 830$
and the demand is already more than avaible supply...

Marek

It will also be interesting to see the gamers community’s reaction to the missing Emotion Engine and the limits to PS2 game compatibility.



what about software emulation ? there was article mentioning about 1000 european PS2 games will play with that software emulation...

Marek

what about software emulation ? there was article mentioning about 1000 european PS2 games will play with that software emulation...

Marek

Especially if software emulation paves the way for upscaled PS2 games in 720p/1080i like Phil Harrison mentioned in his last interview.

That's an interesting POV, since 360 has more non-shooter exclusives, than PS3 has in total.

Are you talking about released games or announced games? if the former, well thats to be expected, since 360 has been out a year longer (as mentioned earlier). if the latter, I disagree.

PS3 is losing exclusives, while 360 is gaining them. Surely you're not attempting to spin that as par for the course?

So exactly how many exclusives has Sony lost? 5 or less? Big deal. The only game of significance was GTAIV, and that would have been at best a timed exclusive for Sony anyways. Sony may be losing exclusives, but MS isnt gaining them. Name one dev that was Sony exclusive and is now 360 exclusive.

As I mentioned before, the output of Sony WWS + 2nd party developers is much larger than that of MGS and its 2nd party developers.

That established precedent strongly suggests it won't help PS3 catch Wii, or 360.

great, you finally acknowledge that PS3 will have superiour visuals to 360!

They're undoubtedly making PS3s for significantly less than they were at initial launch.

I don't think so.

We should remember that cost reduction happens because of process improvement. Volumes just give the motivation for the process improvements. I don't think there would have been major process improvements that will help cut the cost significantly in 4 months. Remember we are talking about BOM costs, not costs like depreciation.

Well in a couple of weeks we'll know how it will fare. I think the conclusion will be that both PS3 and 360 are suffering because of the Wii. However i think the PS3 will sell enough to impact the sales of BD movies to such a degree that it BD movies will outsell HD DVD movies 2:1 or 3:1.

I assume in the context of this thread it is PS3 vs HD DVD players not vs 360 or Wii. I believe a lot of people have been waiting the PS3 as the first BD player (like me). I was tempted to buy a HD DVD player in the US this summer but thought i'd wait to see how the war played out. And right now i think the best bet is to buy a BD player in the form of a PS3. Next year, one can assess the situation, if HD DVD wins i'll buy a HD DVD player for $300, or if BD is the biggest format, i'll buy a new region A BD stand-alone player for $300.

Peace :D

That's exactly how i intend to play it too!

Are you talking about released games or announced games? if the former, well thats to be expected, since 360 has been out a year longer (as mentioned earlier). if the latter, I disagree.

Both.

So exactly how many exclusives has Sony lost? 5 or less? Big deal. The only game of significance was GTAIV, and that would have been at best a timed exclusive for Sony anyways. Sony may be losing exclusives, but MS isnt gaining them. Name one dev that was Sony exclusive and is now 360 exclusive.

A transparent attempt to move the goalposts. We were discussing exclusive titles, not developers.

As I mentioned before, the output of Sony WWS + 2nd party developers is much larger than that of MGS and its 2nd party developers.

Vaporware.

great, you finally acknowledge that PS3 will have superiour visuals to 360!

:rolleyes: I take your failure to address the relevant point, as assent with my position.

I don't think so.

We should remember that cost reduction happens because of process improvement. Volumes just give the motivation for the process improvements. I don't think there would have been major process improvements that will help cut the cost significantly in 4 months. Remember we are talking about BOM costs, not costs like depreciation.

I agree with you nat (how rare!), but by the same token I don't think that there has been a significant cost reduction in the HD-A2 players, not enough to lower the MSRP to $299 like some people on here are predicting/hoping. The volumes are not big enough.

I’m not into gaming, but have asked around among the before 20 years old gamers.

And the under 20 market doesn't hold the sway like people often think it does. Check these two links and remember the fact that almost all random sets of data in averages end up looking like a bell curve.

USA Today story (http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2004-05-12-gamer-demographics_x.htm)
ESA facts and research page (http://www.theesa.com/facts/top_10_facts.php)

These articles really beg to have the question asked. Who really understands the gaming community? These two links both state that the average gamer age is 29 years old and the average buyer is above 35 years old. I think this is the market that Sony and MS have attempted to grab with their media centric console offerings. And thus, the main reason we have Blu-Ray and HD-DVD playing any role at all in the console world.

Vaporware.



I would say no to that, Sony WWS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Computer_Entertainment#Game_franchises) has a lot better franchises than MGS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Game_Studios#Games_released_under_the_MGS_brand) (ignore the PC games in this section and concentrate on Xbox1 titles) this list shows that Sony have got a great inhouse dev team which produces the goods for them, as well as 2nd (Naughty Dog/Insomniac) and 3rd party exclusives (MGS4, DMC4, FF, etc...).

I would say no to that, Sony WWS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Computer_Entertainment#Game_franchises) has a lot better franchises than MGS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Game_Studios#Games_released_under_the_MGS_brand) (ignore the PC games in this section and concentrate on Xbox1 titles) this list shows that Sony have got a great inhouse dev team which produces the goods for them, as well as 2nd (Naughty Dog/Insomniac) and 3rd party exclusives (MGS4, DMC4, FF, etc...).

A great many of those franchises are Japanese centric. Wouldn't it be disingenuous to ignore PC titles, since porting them to 360 is a far more straightforward process than it is in the case of Sony's platform? ;)

A great many of those franchises are Japanese centric. Wouldn't it be disingenuous to ignore PC titles, since porting them to 360 is a far more straightforward process than it is in the case of Sony's platform? ;)

Both as bad as each other really, you would have to rewrite them to run under POWER5 instead of x86 in both cases, and it would need to run under the modified DirectX API that the X360 uses.

PC titles are riddled with rubbish and old franchises which wouldn't make any money, which is why I discounted them. Al PC games from MGS invariably make an appearance on the X360 first anyway (Alan Wake).

Both as bad as each other really, you would have to rewrite them to run under POWER5 instead of x86 in both cases, and it would need to run under the modified DirectX API that the X360 uses.

http://videogames.yahoo.com/newsarticle?eid=452561&page=0

PC titles are riddled with rubbish and old franchises which wouldn't make any money, which is why I discounted them. Al PC games from MGS invariably make an appearance on the X360 first anyway (Alan Wake).

http://www.alanwake.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1058

There are plenty of PC gems which appeal to console gamers.

http://videogames.yahoo.com/newsarticle?eid=452561&page=0


Have you ever played the X360 version of FFXI, it is terrible, the PC version is many, many times better. The reason being that it was a port, the PS3 version (along with the Vista version) will be much better than both as they are built ground up for the specific platform (Cell for the PS3 and DX10 for Vista). Ports are never good.

There are plenty of PC gems which appeal to console gamers.

There are, definitely, but I don't think Zoo Tycoon is the right title though. Most of the 'appealing' games from that list have already made it onto the Xbox and X360. Take Fable 2, it will be released on the X360, then for the PC.

Have you ever played the X360 version of FFXI, it is terrible, the PC version is many, many times better. The reason being that it was a port, the PS3 version (along with the Vista version) will be much better than both as they are built ground up for the specific platform (Cell for the PS3 and DX10 for Vista).

That doesn't negate what a Square Enix developer had to say about the relative difficulties of porting from PC to 360 vs. PS3.

Ports are never good.

I agree in general, and it doesn't have positive implications for PS3, given the reversal of direction in porting from the last hardware generation to the one now under discussion.

That doesn't negate what a Square Enix developer had to say about the relative difficulties of porting from PC to 360 vs. PS3.

Good thing games are made for consoles first then these days. PC comes second now.

I agree in general, and it doesn't have positive implications for PS3, given the reversal of direction in porting from the last hardware generation to the one now under discussion.

For a while yes, but the PS2 exhibited all of the same development problems that the PS3 has now, so I don't consider it to be a very big deal. In fact the Dreamcast had a big hardware advantage and a very easy to use dev kit, but the PS2 was still the lead console pretty much after it was released. The PS3 will be the same, a lot of 3rd parties which are making exclusive games (Capcom, Namco, Konami, Squeenix etc...) have said in the past that they will start using the PS3 as their lead development console very soon (if they haven't already), EA and Activision will be the ones that will use the X360 as the lead platform, EA are very lazy developers though so it is rather unsurprising, Activision are not as bad, but not great either, Spiderman 3 should be a good one for the PS3 as it has exclusive content (also on the PSP) but other than that they are pretty X360-centric for the ease at which they can develop and port. Epic are the best of the lot though, they have developed the Unreal Engine 3 for the PS3 and X360 (GeoW/Mass Effect) separately, and each have their strengths and weaknesses, so for UT3 there could be a different experience for each platform (PC, X360, PS3), especially since the PS3 is getting M+K.

A transparent attempt to move the goalposts. We were discussing exclusive titles, not developers.

So answer the question then. How many exclusive titles has Sony lost? and How many exclusives did MS gain at Sony's expense?



Vaporware.

What vapourware? Sony WWS has developed far more games than MGS, thats a fact. there is no reason why this trend will not continue for this generation. Or do you think all those devs are just going to sit around not doing anything?

:rolleyes: I take your failure to address the relevant point, as assent with my position.

seriously, what point are you trying to make? first you say that PS3 cant have better looking games, then you say if it does, then it cant win first place because historically the console with the best looking games cant be the generational leader. you're all over the place.

I don't think so.

We should remember that cost reduction happens because of process improvement. Volumes just give the motivation for the process improvements. I don't think there would have been major process improvements that will help cut the cost significantly in 4 months. Remember we are talking about BOM costs, not costs like depreciation.

Sorry to be so strong about this, but that is actually not true.

Following pretty standard learning-curve analysis, the PS3 should have lowered its cost substantially by now. The XBox originally costed $550 to mfg (according to the same iSupply), which dropped to $320 a year later (again following iSupply). A bit of intrapolation-extrapolation tells you that if learning is linear (which is a very conservative assumption; the standard learning assumption is log-log) and Sony learns equally fast on the PS3, then the PS3 60GB currently costs only $699 (instead of the original $840) to make. The loss should thus have fallen to about $100. Actually, since the original cost estimate was very much driven by the cost of the blue laser, this is a very conservative estimate. It would thus not be surprising if Sony's loss on a US 60GB is currently only $50 or less.

In North America, for the period Nov 06-Feb 07 the PS3 has outsold the Xbox360 for it's respective launch months (Nov 05-Feb 06). The PS3 has also currently outperformed the launches of both the PS1 and the PS2 which both went on to become over 100 million system sellers. It would also seem that Xbox360 is on track to match Sony's sales in NA this time around which would be a major victory for them.

It's natural for everyone to scream "TANK" when Sony has the slightest of hiccups because they are the #1 company to beat when it comes to consoles. I like to call them "The Microsoft of the console world". Ironically, MS gets to know how it feels to be the underdog for once.

We can all speculate about future games, tech demos, lost exclusives, Euro markets, etc. etc. The only fact that remains is this. Based upon current data available to us, the PS3 is not tanking but is doing just fine as it has surpassed launch sales figures for PS1,PS2, and Xbox 360. That could change in 6 months and PS3 could be the biggest failure every designed.

I apologize for having to introduce actual fact into this speculative discussion

The high price is definitely affecting it, but not as badly as some of these people like to think...and it definitely is not "tanking", not when it outsold the Xbox 360 (at a much higher price point) 44,000 units to 3000 units IN ONE WEEK in japan....

As to the Wii, it's a different market segment, and a unit priced much less than the PS3...what would you expect? Plus, it has absolutely NO BEARING on the format wars, unlike the Xbox 360, which at least has some bearing, albeit only slightly because of the add-on....

asj,

Japanese sales of the PS3 to the xbox are irrelevant. The Xbox has never done well in Japan and never will. Japanese numbers have no impact on NA sales, if they did, the Xbox would be dead here and it isnt.

You can trot out the same old, no games argument, but you still have to explain how back to back drops of 50% in NA are a good thing and a sign of the strength of the PS3.

You have to explain how sales of roughly 170K a month in Japan are great. In a different thread you pointed out how the release of a game doubled the sales of the PS3 in Japan. But think of the implications - that means the PS3 sold at a rate below 100K units a month IN JAPA. If the PS3 were going to be a blockbuster, smash all records kind of console, you would expect it to be in Japan, but even there the numbers are soft.

So answer the question then. How many exclusive titles has Sony lost? and How many exclusives did MS gain at Sony's expense?

Click on the link I provided thirty posts ago.

What vapourware? Sony WWS has developed far more games than MGS, thats a fact. there is no reason why this trend will not continue for this generation. Or do you think all those devs are just going to sit around not doing anything?

Projects in development/"working titles" are the very definition of vaporware, wreckshop. Do I need to provide dictionary links?


seriously, what point are you trying to make? first you say that PS3 cant have better looking games, then you say if it does, then it cant win first place because historically the console with the best looking games cant be the generational leader. you're all over the place.

Try to keep up without putting words in my mouth. The point really isn't that difficult to comprehend: It doesn't necessarily follow that the console with better looking games will be the market leader in a particular product generation. If Japanese Wii sales figures don't make that clear to you, I can't imagine what would.

Click on the link I provided thirty posts ago.

YOU said that PS3 is losing exclusives, and PS3 is gaining them. I asked you to list which titles that PS3 lost and 360 gained, not a link to a list of exclusives which btw is not correct.

So I'll ask you again. Which exclusives did Sony lose and MS gain?

Projects in development/"working titles" are the very definition of vaporware, wreckshop. Do I need to provide dictionary links?

perhaps you should actually read the definition yourself first.

Vaporware is software or hardware product which is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge, either with or without a protracted development cycle. The term implies unwarranted optimism, or sometimes even deception; that is, it may imply that the announcer knows that product development is in too early a stage to support responsible statements about its completion date, feature set, or even feasibility.

Duke Nukem is vapourware, Halo3, Gran Turismo 5 is not.

Try to keep up without putting words in my mouth. The point really isn't that difficult to comprehend: It doesn't necessarily follow that the console with better looking games will be the market leader in a particular product generation. If Japanese Wii sales figures don't make that clear to you, I can't imagine what would.

convenient for you to say now that there are PS3 games out there on the horizon that look better and are techically superiour to 360 games. Regardless, you obviously have a strong dislike for the playstation platform, so any discussion with you is pointless, so I'll bow out.

From Tech's Message dot com (quintissentila uk geekery x24 x7) x365
I read it on a link from the dvd wars page.

Wii best seller in February as PS3 sales fall sharply
18 March 2007

by Philip Bain

February is a pretty slow month as far as games console sales are concerned but that did nothing to dull the march of the Nintendo Wii which outsold it’s competitors yet again in the US. In February the Wii sold 335,000 units, the Xbox 360 came in 2nd with 228,000 and the PS3 was a distant 3rd with 127,000 units. The sales of both the Wii and Xbox 360 were down by 23% and 22% respectively which is normal for the period, but PS3 sales have fallen a staggering 49% during a period of plentiful supply, prompting Sony to yet again go on the defensive regarding poor sales and apparent consumer preference for thier competitor’s products.

Sony’s European PS3 launch doesnt seem to make the picture look any rosier as retailers seem set to have plentiful stocks at launch due to lack lustre pre-orders and higher levels of interest in the Ninteno Wii and the Xbox 360


So it doesn't sound like the EU is too impressed with PS3/BD.

YOU said that PS3 is losing exclusives, and PS3 is gaining them. I asked you to list which titles that PS3 lost and 360 gained, not a link to a list of exclusives which btw is not correct.

So I'll ask you again. Which exclusives did Sony lose and MS gain?

Semantics won't help you here. I never said that former PS3 exclusives were now exclusive to the 360 platform. On the contrary, MS has gained new exclusive titles. Here's a short list of titles/franchises which were either assumed to be, announced, or simply lost opportunities as PS exclusives because Kutagari was too occupied with ludicrous product hyping and blaming Sony's electronics division for launch delays, to procure outright or timed exclusivity agreements:

Armored Core 4
Virtua Fighter 5
Unreal Tournament 07
Fatal Inertia
Bladestorm
Guitar Hero
Mercenaries 2
GTA 4
Assassin's Creed
Devil May Cry 4

perhaps you should actually read the definition yourself first.

American Heritage Dictionary
va·por·ware (vā'pər-wâr') Pronunciation Key
n. New software that has been announced or marketed but has not been produced.

I was already aware that the term isn't necessarily as narrowly defined as it is by the source you cited. ;)

convenient for you to say now that there are PS3 games out there on the horizon that look better and are techically superiour to 360 games.

Examples of independent evaluations which reflect your characterization?

Regardless, you obviously have a strong dislike for the playstation platform, so any discussion with you is pointless, so I'll bow out.

I simply don't have a problem criticizing any multinational corporation which exists to take money from our wallets. The MS console has been plagued by QC issues, their approach to the Japanese market hasn't been sufficiently comprehensive, resulting in products which primarily appeal to Western aesthetics, and 360's price-points are still too high ( say thank you, Sony ). However, it seems to me that in this generation, MS has demonstrated a more singular focus on gaming, while Sony's efforts have clearly been diffused by BD priorities, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with pointing that out.

[ Edited to add yet another title ( props to mobius ) ]

From Tech's Message dot com (quintissentila uk geekery x24 x7) x365
I read it on a link from the dvd wars page.

Wii best seller in February as PS3 sales fall sharply
18 March 2007

by Philip Bain

February is a pretty slow month as far as games console sales are concerned but that did nothing to dull the march of the Nintendo Wii which outsold it’s competitors yet again in the US. In February the Wii sold 335,000 units, the Xbox 360 came in 2nd with 228,000 and the PS3 was a distant 3rd with 127,000 units. The sales of both the Wii and Xbox 360 were down by 23% and 22% respectively which is normal for the period, but PS3 sales have fallen a staggering 49% during a period of plentiful supply, prompting Sony to yet again go on the defensive regarding poor sales and apparent consumer preference for thier competitor’s products.

Sony’s European PS3 launch doesnt seem to make the picture look any rosier as retailers seem set to have plentiful stocks at launch due to lack lustre pre-orders and higher levels of interest in the Ninteno Wii and the Xbox 360


So it doesn't sound like the EU is too impressed with PS3/BD.

I guess if you think that because stocks will be plentiful on launch there is lack of interest i think you should read this article:

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/technology/article1533825.ece

BTW, PS3 is the most pre-ordered console ever in the UK.

Amazon.co.uk and Play.com in the UK are now sold out of Casino Royal on Blu Ray.

I guess if you think that because stocks will be plentiful on launch there is lack of interest i think you should read this article:

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/technology/article1533825.ece

BTW, PS3 is the most pre-ordered console ever in the UK.

I think all the people who are interested in the PS3 as a cheap Bluray Player pre-ordered it. But I do not see that many people waiting for the PS3 to buy it in the shops. Actually I expect big piles of PS3 in the shops from the launch day on.

The PS3 is simply too expensive. Well, but maybe I am wrong. We will see. :)

Sorry to be so strong about this, but that is actually not true.

That is rather strong, considering your "proof" is iSupply numbers - which I know to be wrong.

We are talking economic theory here. I'd like to know where is the process improvement with PS3 ?

BTW, the other place to get lower costs is negotiated prices from vendors - which can be lowered for higher volumes. Not so in the case of PS3 - which was known to be a high volume item from the beginning. Whats more, some items are actually supply constrained - which makes the price go up as demand increases.

I agree with you nat (how rare!), but by the same token I don't think that there has been a significant cost reduction in the HD-A2 players, not enough to lower the MSRP to $299 like some people on here are predicting/hoping. The volumes are not big enough.

I think $299 is difficult on current hd-a2 platform. Not because of volumes (again !) but because there hasn't been much process improvement between A1 and A2.

Most people I know talk about $299 based on boradcom's new SOC platform with MS software.

In North America, for the period Nov 06-Feb 07 the PS3 has outsold the Xbox360 for it's respective launch months (Nov 05-Feb 06). The PS3 has also currently outperformed the launches of both the PS1 and the PS2 which both went on to become over 100 million system sellers. It would also seem that Xbox360 is on track to match Sony's sales in NA this time around which would be a major victory for them.

It's natural for everyone to scream "TANK" when Sony has the slightest of hiccups because they are the #1 company to beat when it comes to consoles. I like to call them "The Microsoft of the console world". Ironically, MS gets to know how it feels to be the underdog for once.

We can all speculate about future games, tech demos, lost exclusives, Euro markets, etc. etc. The only fact that remains is this. Based upon current data available to us, the PS3 is not tanking but is doing just fine as it has surpassed launch sales figures for PS1,PS2, and Xbox 360. That could change in 6 months and PS3 could be the biggest failure every designed.

I apologize for having to introduce actual fact into this speculative discussion

Sony #1? Try #3 in the next gen war. Sony has a lot of catching up to do.

Some 2006 hardware sales numbers in Europe from Video Business:

- Stand-alone HD DVD and Blu-ray players combined: about 3,000

- Xbox 360 add-on: under 15,000

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6425099.html

That is rather strong, considering your "proof" is iSupply numbers - which I know to be wrong.

We are talking economic theory here. I'd like to know where is the process improvement with PS3 ?

BTW, the other place to get lower costs is negotiated prices from vendors - which can be lowered for higher volumes. Not so in the case of PS3 - which was known to be a high volume item from the beginning. Whats more, some items are actually supply constrained - which makes the price go up as demand increases.

I used iSupply not as proof but as an estimate. It's fine if they are wrong, as long as they tend to make similar mistakes over time, since I'm using the first difference.

The fundamental argument (independent of iSupply numbers), on the other hand, is that yields on new electronics components, such as the cell processor or blue laser diodes, improve dramatically in the early stages of manufacturing when there's still a lot of process tweaking going on. Given that both the cell and the blue laser diodes were rumored to have simply terrible yields early on (the cell was said to reach barely 10%) suggests that there was a lot of space for improvement. (The shift to 65 nm for the cell will give a more drastic cut.) This same argument applies, to a lesser degree, to more traditional components.

You say that the only other way is to negotiate price based on volume. There is an important alternative: supply contracts often include either time-based price adjustments to pass on cost savings or market-price based adjustment for the same purpose. That almost surely applies to components such as hard drives, memory, or wireless sets.

And then there are simply dropped components like the emotion engine.

While these are not proof in the sense of internal Sony docs on cost reductions or yield improvements, this indirect evidence is really quite strong, I believe :)

Some 2006 hardware sales numbers in Europe from Video Business:

- Stand-alone HD DVD and Blu-ray players combined: about 3,000

- Xbox 360 add-on: under 15,000

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6425099.html

That's hilarious, given this quote:

"...

Taiwanese industry analysts (on behalf of parts suppliers for high-def players) estimate HD DVD has already captured an 85% market share in Europe in just the first four months.

..."

http://www.betanews.com/article/HD_DVD_Makes_American_Pitch_to_European_Consumers/1173994501

That's hilarious, given this quote:

"...

Taiwanese industry analysts (on behalf of parts suppliers for high-def players) estimate HD DVD has already captured an 85% market share in Europe in just the first four months.

..."

http://www.betanews.com/article/HD_DVD_Makes_American_Pitch_to_European_Consumers/1173994501

Why yes. After all, 100 * 15 / 18 = 83.3 ;)

Why yes. After all, 100 * 15 / 18 = 83.3 ;)

Logically, therefore, HD DVD sold exactly 51 (yes fifty one) stand-alone players in all of Europe so far.

We know you bought a standalone HD DVD player in Europe ... who are the other 50? ;)

Edit: Corrected math :)

I wonder how 1 million PS3 units will skew those numbers ;)

Per

IThe fundamental argument (independent of iSupply numbers), on the other hand, is that yields on new electronics components, such as the cell processor or blue laser diodes, improve dramatically in the early stages of manufacturing when there's still a lot of process tweaking going on. Given that both the cell and the blue laser diodes were rumored to have simply terrible yields early on (the cell was said to reach barely 10%) suggests that there was a lot of space for improvement. (The shift to 65 nm for the cell will give a more drastic cut.) This same argument applies, to a lesser degree, to more traditional components.
I wonder. AFAIK the only substantial market for either of these components is the PS3. It's not like they are selling large quantities to other OEM's to help with their substantial start-up losses. Edit: their quantities aren't as large as expected either

I wonder how 1 million PS3 units will skew those numbers ;)

Per

Come on now, we all know HD DVDs superior attach rate will ensure their victory ;)

AFAIK the only substantial market for either of these components is the PS3.

I'm not sure I'm following your argument: I only pointed out that tweaking the process parameters on a completely new type of chip typically improves the yields considerably over time, especially if early yields are problematic. This type of improvement does not depend on the scale of production, only on the cumulative number of representative batches you have produced (since that determines, among other things, how many times you have "experimented") and on pure time (since that determines how many other changes to the product you've been able to make).

Sony #1? Try #3 in the next gen war. Sony has a lot of catching up to do.

Nowhere in my statement did I say Sony was #1 in the next gen war. They may end up being #2 in the next gen war (Wii doesn't count it's not next gen equipment). However, launch month for launch month they are ahead of where the Xbox360 was at this time. They are also off record breaking console sales with their last two consoles the PS1 and PS2 both selling over 100 million.

You may predict the future and Sony may fall, but as it stands today, Sony is the #1 game company in the console market.

I used iSupply not as proof but as an estimate. It's fine if they are wrong, as long as they tend to make similar mistakes over time, since I'm using the first difference.

The problem with iSupply is that they have no way of "knowing" non off-the-shelf parts - like the BD drive or the HD DVD drive (for 360 add-on). Over time when those parts become more widespread and commercially available in quantity from multiple vendors, it is easier to get prices.


The fundamental argument (independent of iSupply numbers), on the other hand, is that yields on new electronics components, such as the cell processor or blue laser diodes, improve dramatically in the early stages of manufacturing when there's still a lot of process tweaking going on. Given that both the cell and the blue laser diodes were rumored to have simply terrible yields early on (the cell was said to reach barely 10%) suggests that there was a lot of space for improvement. (The shift to 65 nm for the cell will give a more drastic cut.) This same argument applies, to a lesser degree, to more traditional components.

Cell and the laser are not that new - they have been manufactured for sometime. I guess that very initial process improvement (that one would call commercialization) has happenned and I guess the initial prices were based on that.

You say that the only other way is to negotiate price based on volume. There is an important alternative: supply contracts often include either time-based price adjustments to pass on cost savings or market-price based adjustment for the same purpose. That almost surely applies to components such as hard drives, memory, or wireless sets.

Possibly. But most of such components are already widely available and would be at a low price to start with. Not much scope for drastic reduction in cost ...


While these are not proof in the sense of internal Sony docs on cost reductions or yield improvements, this indirect evidence is really quite strong, I believe :)

Sorry - I see no compelling evidence that there is a substantial cost reduction. A few bucks - yes. But not substantial.

spek,

They are also off record breaking console sales with their last two consoles the PS1 and PS2 both selling over 100 million.

So what? The discussion is about the PS3.

However, launch month for launch month they are ahead of where the Xbox360 was at this time

Again, so what. The yardstick is whether the PS3 meets Sony's projections, not how many units the 360 sold.

But most of such components are already widely available and would be at a low price to start with. Not much scope for drastic reduction in cost ...

Hard drives, memory, and advanced processors have cost reduction of up to 30-50% per year currently.

More importantly, if most other components have a low cost to start with (and were probably correctly estimated by iSupply) ... then it must be the cell and the blue laser which are the main source of losses. So any improvement there must have a significant impact on the bottom line. So that brings us back to the question of what is happening to the cell and blue laser.


Cell and the laser are not that new - they have been manufactured for sometime. I guess that very initial process improvement (that one would call commercialization) has happenned and I guess the initial prices were based on that.

The production (of both cell and blue laser) for the PS3 was on a very different scale than before and much process improvement is scale specific. So for all purposes, this approximates a new manufacturing process.

Furthermore, the 65nm cells are already in production, so they will soon find their way into the PS3's. At the same time, companies like Sharp are ramping up blue laser diode production, which drives down market price and thus Sony's effective cost (or opportunity cost, in econ terms).

I love how people keep saying "Wii doesn't count because its not next-gen". Actually it IS next gen...its just not HighDef. What's even funnier is that its mostly BD people saying it. Funny b/c they fight tooth and nail against the complaint that "PS3 doesn't count as a BD player b/c its a console". Just ironic I guess. It directly competes with X-Box 360 and PS3...and is selling better than both. If it affects your sales...it counts.

There are people buying the Wii INSTEAD of XBox and INSTEAD of PS3. No matter how you look at it, it counts. Wii came out before PS3 by like a month in the US right? You still have people lining up for delivery day every week to purchase a Wii...PS3's are sitting in every store I go to, Wii's are not. And don't even try to say Nintendo has had a supply problem, b/c they haven't. It just sells better.

You can criticize it b/c its different, not HD, etc, but it is a direct competitor to PS3 and XBox. Just b/c it appeals to a broader age range shouldn't discount it. That would be like saying Happy Feet doesn't count b/c its a cartoon and appeals to kids. If it outsells a movie in opening weekend and beyond, you better believe it counts...and the industry takes notice.

So the Wii isn't HiDef...so what? Its unique, fun as hell, and is what games are supposed to be about...FUN.

just give it up already. depending on the tasks, it can me modest or a huge advantage. according to the havok guys, havok 4.5 runs 5-10 faster than a triple core cpu that was compared to CELL. Physics simulations and AI routines are two things I can think of off the top of my head that XeCPU trails far behind in CELL.



Ok then, out of all the exclusives that are to released this year by Microsoft game studios how many are shooters?



Speaking of exclusives and what not, it looks like Devil May Cry 4 is going multiplatform to the PS3, 360, and PS3. This was expected by many, but here's the confirmation:

Capcom’s "Devil May Cry 4" Goes Multiplatform! Mega-hit Title set for PLAYSTATION® 3, Xbox 360™ and PC! (http://ir.capcom.co.jp/english/news/html/e070320.html)

EDIT: Confirmed by IGN (http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/774/774093p1.html)

Next up, Metal Gear Solid 4... :)

So the Wii isn't HiDef...so what? Its unique, fun as hell, and is what games are supposed to be about...FUN.

Unique? Yes. But fun? Where?

I own a Wii. The games are all either mediocre or worse. I've at least found room in my collection to add a few PS3 games to my PS3, but my Wii has been collecting dust for two months now.

There are people buying the Wii INSTEAD of XBox and INSTEAD of PS3.I completely agree. As a general rule, once somebody buys a Wii there is going to be less chance of getting them to buy one of the other two. It might not be equivalent, but I am confident that they would each have better sales if the Wii didn't exist.

--Darin

spek,



So what? The discussion is about the PS3.

Read Urza's quote of my previous post and his apparent question as to how Sony is the #1 company right now in the console world. I'm just making that comparison cause it's cool to hate whoever is on top and gun for them to be defeated.(Playstations, Windows, Yankees, etc.) Not that I would put that moniker on you or Urza, it's just an observation.



Again, so what. The yardstick is whether the PS3 meets Sony's projections, not how many units the 360 sold.

This is true, but if the PS3 continues to match or beat Xbox360's sales figures then I think it comes very close to meeting Sony's expectations. It's all about what either of us predict for the future. You seem to think that Sony is on a downslide for various reasons. Maybe the lack of retaining exclusives, poor current on-line support, or not a large quantity of great games currently available, has you worried.

With Sony being the #1 game console company at the moment and the fact that they are matching Xbox360 sales, along with the brisk pre-orders in Europe. I think they might actually make their sales predictions.

Either way it's a crap shoot where we take random guesses about gigantic market forces which none of us truly understand. But we can't simply ignore comparative facts when making our gypsy predictions.

spek,

I dont think Sony is on a downslide at all. I think that the PS3 is not selling according to Sony's expectations. That is a potential problem for Sony, just like it is for any company that fails to meet expectations.

All of I have said is that the PS3 is not the "success" some of the people (e.g., asj) would like to believe. When people say that 127K units a month in NA or 175K a month units in Japan are ok to good, one just has to wonder.

I completely agree. As a general rule, once somebody buys a Wii there is going to be less chance of getting them to buy one of the other two. It might not be equivalent, but I am confident that they would each have better sales if the Wii didn't exist.

--Darin

I own a Wii as well, however it's losing it's apeal at the moment. My 5 year old son likes it though, but that's because he's playing Winnie the Pooh Gamecube games on it, which is also available on PS2 (and hence PS3). So when PS3 arrives in the house i might consider selling the Wii.

However I agree with Darin, if they bought the Wii I think most people wouldn't buy another console in at least 1 year.

The Times Online is carrying this story on the PS3.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/technology/article1533825.ece?CMP=KNC-LBN&HBX_PK=ps3+news&HBX_OU=50

Enjoy.

Hard drives, memory, and advanced processors have cost reduction of up to 30-50% per year currently.

More importantly, if most other components have a low cost to start with (and were probably correctly estimated by iSupply) ... then it must be the cell and the blue laser which are the main source of losses. So any improvement there must have a significant impact on the bottom line. So that brings us back to the question of what is happening to the cell and blue laser.



The production (of both cell and blue laser) for the PS3 was on a very different scale than before and much process improvement is scale specific. So for all purposes, this approximates a new manufacturing process.

Furthermore, the 65nm cells are already in production, so they will soon find their way into the PS3's. At the same time, companies like Sharp are ramping up blue laser diode production, which drives down market price and thus Sony's effective cost (or opportunity cost, in econ terms).

So does that mean my computer will be free next year? If the cost reduces for parts by 50% a year I'll just wait and they will pay me to get their products.

Sony makes their own diodes by the way. So how will Sharp making diodes help Sony?

Imo, the only proper benchmark to compare PS3-sales against is sales of the 360 at same time-durations in market. Its not the perfect benchmark, but its as close as one can get to a perfect one.

For those who dont agree, try this thought experiment. MS abandons the 360 and launches the awesomely powerful xbox720 in nov 2008 in Japan and NA, followed by Europe in mar 2009. Assume the 720 is priced at 500 and 600 USD for the 2 SKUs and the PS3 has fallen in price to 300 and 400 USD.



What benchmarks would you use?


P.S. I would expect the PS3-decriers to use the below argument, but somehow no one does. The argument should be that PS3 sales are inflated by people buying it as Only a BD player. Estimates indicate at least about 20% are used just like BD players. Thus, 360 might actually be in the lead as a console only :)

So does that mean my computer will be free next year? If the cost reduces for parts by 50% a year I'll just wait and they will pay me to get their products.

Wow, that is a weird reply, 50% of 50% is 25%, not zero.

Sony makes their own diodes by the way. So how will Sharp making diodes help Sony?

It won't.

So the Wii isn't HiDef...so what? Its unique, fun as hell, and is what games are supposed to be about...FUN.As Icemage said, unique? Yes. fun? Not so much. It has it's moments and it has it's niche, but there's only so far minigames and novelty will take you before they get old. Luckily Sony and Microsoft are there to help those of us who prefer something better than standard def graphics, General Midi generated music, and games which don't feel like they're a decade old.

Speaking of fun, I bet Wii owners everywhere will be having tons of fun when they sit down and enter every single one of those 16 digit friend codes into each game they want to play online. No universal buddy lists or easy to remember usernames here, only pure, Family Friendly Nintendo fun. Even better, they get to do it with a laser pointer. Awesome.

Kinda peculiar this, but Sony's PlayStation PR claims that dual layer BD has a capacity of 54GB, while their studio side talks of 50GB.

Sorry to be so strong about this, but that is actually not true.

Following pretty standard learning-curve analysis, the PS3 should have lowered its cost substantially by now. The XBox originally costed $550 to mfg (according to the same iSupply), which dropped to $320 a year later (again following iSupply). A bit of intrapolation-extrapolation tells you that if learning is linear (which is a very conservative assumption; the standard learning assumption is log-log) and Sony learns equally fast on the PS3, then the PS3 60GB currently costs only $699 (instead of the original $840) to make. The loss should thus have fallen to about $100. Actually, since the original cost estimate was very much driven by the cost of the blue laser, this is a very conservative estimate. It would thus not be surprising if Sony's loss on a US 60GB is currently only $50 or less.


None of this analysis considers what kind of yields they're getting on the Cell or blue laser diodes. At this point, I doubt anyone knows for sure outside of STI or Nichia.

None of this analysis considers what kind of yields they're getting on the Cell or blue laser diodes. At this point, I doubt anyone knows for sure outside of STI or Nichia.

By far the biggest producers of B/V laser diodes for use in drives are Sony, I would also expect them to have the highest yield as they have a lot more to gain by a 1 or 2% increase than other companies.

By far the biggest producers of B/V laser diodes for use in drives are Sony, I would also expect them to have the highest yield as they have a lot more to gain by a 1 or 2% increase than other companies.


I understand that, but I'm talking about it within the context of Sony's efforts to cost reduce the PS3. Even if Sony/Nichia's yields are the best, it doesn't mean they can't be better.

For all the naysayers that were indicating that few PS1/2 games would operate properly on the new improved European PS3, check out:

http://kotaku.com/gaming/ps3/check-your-euro-ps3-bc-245549.php

"...

The list covers the new 1.6 firmware revision, so some of the titles the Inquirer tested are now listed as fully compatible, such as God of War and Shadow of the Colossus.

While the list is by no means complete, it still represents a sizeable chunk of the previous systems' libraries, roughly 72%, and with updates that figure is guaranteed to grow. It's already much better than the 360, which wouldn't let me play Armed and Dangerous this weekend, a mortal sin if I ever heard one. Michael Fahey"

And a large percentage of those 75% games are 1/2 stars meaning they have minor to major problems. Only around 790 games are fully working, even then it will interested to see what fully working means, this is an emulator after all. Far cry from what us/jap customers got with respect to BC.

And a large percentage of those 75% games are 1/2 stars meaning they have minor to major problems. Only around 790 games are fully working, even then it will interested to see what fully working means, this is an emulator after all. Far cry from what us/jap customers got with respect to BC.

Read it and weep ... "It's already much better than the 360, which wouldn't let me play Armed and Dangerous this weekend, a mortal sin if I ever heard one. Michael Fahey"

http://kotaku.com/gaming/ps3/check-your-euro-ps3-bc-245549.php

Okami
Metal gear solid 2 & 3 (except subsistence)
ALL Final Fantasy games
GTA San Andreas
ALL singstar games

Have issues or don't work at all on the European PS3. Thankyou, once again, Sony.

I don't know about anyone else, but if BC is an issue, chances are you still own a PS2, and probably have it hooked up via composite anyway. :)

What are the chances of someone owning, say, Okami and NOT owning a PS2? Answer: effectively zero.

60,000 of the 100,000 PS3,s for the launch in France have already been pre-ordered.

Looks like the UK has been given another allocation increase of 70,000 units up to 300,000.

I don't know about anyone else, but if BC is an issue, chances are you still own a PS2, and probably have it hooked up via composite anyway. :)

What are the chances of someone owning, say, Okami and NOT owning a PS2? Answer: effectively zero.

And what about poeple that don't own a PS2, or their old PS2 broke, and want to play these games? There are plenty of gamers in the UK that don't own a PS2. Its not a question of whether you own the game, more that there aren't any decent games available for the PS3. At least you would be able play new PS2 games that are good.
Personally, there are at least 20 games I would like to buy for the PS2 and one for the PS3. I am not going to go out and buy a PS2. When they have sorted out the emulation, I'll get one or just buy a US model.

it's just damn too expensive so it won't sell so well (in europe) after initial rush.

The games will ultimately make or break this thing in both Europe and North America. The biggest problem for Sony is that they are losing their exclusive titles. Just this week, Devil May Cry 4 was announced for the 360, and there are strong rumors now that Metal Gear 4 will also make its way to the 360 because Konami won't be able to sell enough copies on the PS3 (too small of an install base).

There's also a great deal of smoke around the Final Fantasy franchise. Microsoft has that square in their sights as the next IP they need to secure. Beyond even that, the rumor just this morning is that Microsoft is bidding on Take-2. Take-2 owns Rockstar. If Microsoft were to secure Rockstar, that would seal Grand Theft Auto as an Xbox exclusive.

It's going to be really hard for Sony to compete if Microsoft keeps poaching the major franchises out from under them.

The games will ultimately make or break this thing in both Europe and North America. The biggest problem for Sony is that they are losing their exclusive titles. Just this week, Devil May Cry 4 was announced for the 360, and there are strong rumors now that Metal Gear 4 will also make its way to the 360 because Konami won't be able to sell enough copies on the PS3 (too small of an install base).

There's also a great deal of smoke around the Final Fantasy franchise. Microsoft has that square in their sights as the next IP they need to secure. Beyond even that, the rumor just this morning is that Microsoft is bidding on Take-2. Take-2 owns Rockstar. If Microsoft were to secure Rockstar, that would seal Grand Theft Auto as an Xbox exclusive.

It's going to be really hard for Sony to compete if Microsoft keeps poaching the major franchises out from under them.

Let me add to this....the lost DMC4, I just found out they lost Ace Combat 6...and yes...Metal Gear has been discussed. Along with what we already know about GTA4, VF5, AC4, and based on what I read in the last EGM....Kingdom Hearts is coming to the Wii. Without exclusives....the console has no hope.

Only European consumers can decide if BC is a deal breaker or not.

We will find out what they think in a couple of days.

it's just damn too expensive so it won't sell so well (in europe) after initial rush.

Its predicted by years end the PS3 will have shifted more than 4,000,000 units in Europe. The UK is expected to take 1,500,000 alone.That does not suggest the price is to high.Years end obviously includes the holiday season where it is expected to do extremely well.

Its predicted by years end the PS3 will have shifted more than 4,000,000 units in Europe. The UK is expected to take 1,500,000 alone.That does not suggest the price is to high.Years end obviously includes the holiday season where it is expected to do extremely well.

I think this prediction is based on a 20% price cut that will come end of the year. With this price cut Sony might sell 4 mil PS3 to the customers. Without it - no way in heaven.

I think this prediction is based on a 20% price cut that will come end of the year. With this price cut Sony might sell 4 mil PS3 to the customers. Without it - no way in heaven.

You meant to say this:

I think this prediction is based on a 20% price cut that is predicted to come end of the year. With this price cut Sony might sell 4 mil PS3 to the customers. Without it - no way in heaven.

Its predicted by years end the PS3 will have shifted more than 4,000,000 units in Europe. The UK is expected to take 1,500,000 alone.That does not suggest the price is to high.Years end obviously includes the holiday season where it is expected to do extremely well.

We'll talk a week from now when there are a hundred thousand PS3s on eBay and three hundred thousand still on store shelves.

The European console market shouldn't be bigger than the North American market.

We've seen how low sales are in North America (1.2 million sold units in 4 months), and the European price is considerably higher...

Let me add to this....the lost DMC4, I just found out they lost Ace Combat 6...and yes...Metal Gear has been discussed. Along with what we already know about GTA4, VF5, AC4, and based on what I read in the last EGM....Kingdom Hearts is coming to the Wii. Without exclusives....the console has no hope.

Sony is also trying to negotiate with Square over Final Fantasy XIII. It's not a done deal. I have a feeling the development costs for the next Final Fantasy game might make it a necessity to sell to Xbox's 10 million+ installed gamers.

Its predicted by years end the PS3 will have shifted more than 4,000,000 units in Europe.
sure, unfortunately those units are shifted from manufacturer to store selfs collect dust, i am afraid...

The UK is expected to take 1,500,000 alone.That does not suggest the price is to high.Years end obviously includes the holiday season where it is expected to do extremely well.
expected by whom? price in UK is £425(?) and rest of europe around 650€ (give or take 50€) it's just too much money for non-hardcore gamer/HD-Enthusiastic.

Sony is also trying to negotiate with Square over Final Fantasy XIII. It's not a done deal. I have a feeling the development costs for the next Final Fantasy game might make it a necessity to sell to Xbox's 10 million+ installed gamers.

It's not a done deal, but it's my guess that sony will lose most (if not all) it's 3rd party exclusives.

I also feel that the success/failure of the euro launch will play a major impact on the direction of these 3rd party exclusives which are "on the fence" so to speak.

We'll talk a week from now when there are a hundred thousand PS3s on eBay and three hundred thousand still on store shelves.

The European console market shouldn't be bigger than the North American market.

We've seen how low sales are in North America (1.2 million sold units in 4 months), and the European price is considerably higher...A couple of factors to consider:

The Playstation brand has a much stronger hold in the PAL regions than it does in the US.
The European launch has more content available than the US did
Games like F1 are much bigger in Europe than the US, especially with the new season kicking off only last week and the british having their own golden boy in the running.
Features have been added and big announcements have been made since the US launch.
The latest US numbers were for February and don't take into account the release of Motorstorm, the announcement of Home, or the GDC preview of LBP which all happened in March.

Sony is also trying to negotiate with Square over Final Fantasy XIII. It's not a done deal. I have a feeling the development costs for the next Final Fantasy game might make it a necessity to sell to Xbox's 10 million+ installed gamers.

FF XIII is an interesting title, as there were discussions by gamers on whether that game will fit on a BD25 or would need to be on BD50. That would mean it would take 3-6 DVD9s wouldn't it --- back to the stone age when FF7 came out on 4 CDroms.

FF XIII is an interesting title, as there were discussions by gamers on whether that game will fit on a BD25 or would need to be on BD50. That would mean it would take 3-6 DVD9s wouldn't it --- back to the stone age when FF7 came out on 4 CDroms.

I know there's a lot of talk in the Sony camp about it needing Blu-Ray, but honestly I think they are just trying to push the format. If you look at the big Japanese RPG's coming out on the 360 like Blue Dragon and Lost Odessy (both made by the creator of Final Fantasy), they are managing with DVD just fine.

Even for the sake of argument, that they needed 3 or 4 DVD's. It's not like it would be the world's biggest inconvenience. We've been swapping out discs (especially on RPG's) for years now. If I need to swap out a disc every 10 to 12 hours of play, I think I can deal with that just fine. RPG's, by nature, are very episodic. It's not at all like a Grand Theft Auto, where the need to swap discs would be just awful.

Honestly, Final Fantasy is the last real major old school franchise they are sitting on. If it goes multi-platform, I'd say the PS3 is in big, big trouble. You could argue that Gran Turismo is still a huge draw, but Xbox has effectively countered it with Forza.

There's nothing explicitly stopping Square-Enix from moving Final Fantasy to PS3/Xbox 360 neutrality, at least in the short term, but the truth is that Square-Enix, more so than most companies, is very Japanese, and caters heavily to the Japanese market.

In that vein, of all the franchises that might move over, Final Fantasy is the last one I would expect to do so. More so than anyone else in the game development market, the higher storage capacity of Blu-ray is a big draw for Square-Enix since they love doing CGI scenes, and it's just not possible to put much content at 1080p on a DVD (heck, can you even stream it fast enough off of a DVD drive? There's an interesting question!).

In any case, I don't really agree that Final Fantasy is the only major franchise exclusive to the PlayStation brand though, though it's probably one of the most visible. As mentioned, Gran Turismo is huge. MGS4 will most likely stay exclusive for this iteration.

What will be interesting is seeing how many of the neutrals will stay neutral in the next couple of years. Sony has a lot of decisions to make, but I think if they can make it to 10M PS3s sold by end of 2008 (20 months from now) they'll get most of the exclusives back on the next iteration. I don't think that's going to be a hard sell for them.

I know there's a lot of talk in the Sony camp about it needing Blu-Ray, but honestly I think they are just trying to push the format. If you look at the big Japanese RPG's coming out on the 360 like Blue Dragon and Lost Odessy (both made by the creator of Final Fantasy), they are managing with DVD just fine.

Even for the sake of argument, that they needed 3 or 4 DVD's. It's not like it would be the world's biggest inconvenience. We've been swapping out discs (especially on RPG's) for years now. If I need to swap out a disc every 10 to 12 hours of play, I think I can deal with that just fine. RPG's, by nature, are very episodic. It's not at all like a Grand Theft Auto, where the need to swap discs would be just awful.

Honestly, Final Fantasy is the last real major old school franchise they are sitting on. If it goes multi-platform, I'd say the PS3 is in big, big trouble. You could argue that Gran Turismo is still a huge draw, but Xbox has effectively countered it with Forza.

I believe it was Square Enix and the people behind FFXIII that talked about how many GB they needed for that game, not Sony.

I'm sure Sony will push the 50GB of storage side in bold letters. The current gen of games don't appear to need it (not sure why Resistance needed it, but I don't write games), HD cut scenes that is the hall mark of the FF series will need a lot of storage.

For proof, you only need to look at the best japanese x360 game --- Blue Dragon, that thing is on 3 DVD9s. FFXIII is probably going to need about all of that 50GB for the main title. As for swapping disks, it's not a problem when you have no choice, but when there is a choice, I'd pick my game on a single DVD over cdroms --- which is why I stayed away from the PC version of LOTR-Battle for Middle Earth II and picked the 360 version (a mistake actually, since that game demands a keyboard to be playable).

Versions of FF have been available on PC, Nintendo for a long time, it's only the latest version that has been PS exclusive. I suppose if FF XIII comes out on 360 on 6 disks vs PS3 on 1 (or 2), people could have that choice again.

---

Say... Isn't the european launch tomorrow? I guess armchair pundits will just wait a few more hours to see what the volume is like, followed by another month to see how the movies behave. By April 30th, European highdef movie sales could change dramatically (but given the current low units, any increase anywhere is always dramatic).

Shoppers sleep on floor for PlayStation 3 launch
(But there was little sign of the frenzy that surrounded its launch in the United States and Japan last year when thousands queued or camped outside stores.)

Only a handful of gamers were queuing at major London stores early on Thursday. Police have raised concerns about young people being mugged for their consoles at late-night launches.

Treasury spokesman Vincent Cable said: "Rip-off Britain seems to be alive and kicking,"

Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSL1615358820070322)

Shoppers sleep on floor for PlayStation 3 launch
(But there was little sign of the frenzy that surrounded its launch in the United States and Japan last year when thousands queued or camped outside stores.)




Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSL1615358820070322)

Take a look here (http://www.ukresistance.co.uk/) and here (http://technology.guardian.co.uk/weekly/story/0,,2039112,00.html)

Take a look here (http://www.ukresistance.co.uk/)

Funny site banner:

http://www.ukresistance.co.uk/pics4/europeatwar.gif

Do I see some bias? :D

Take a look here (http://www.ukresistance.co.uk/)
Who is disagreeing. Funny Link Thanks! :D

Shoppers sleep on floor for PlayStation 3 launch
(But there was little sign of the frenzy that surrounded its launch in the United States and Japan last year when thousands queued or camped outside stores.)


Why would there be lines for a product that Sony and retailers keep saying over and over there will not be shortages of? People lined up in the US and Japan because everyone knew there WOULD be shortages (and ebay).

A very good friend of mine writes for UK resistance. He also works for a large worldwide software house. Make of that what you will.

Yup, that website is an MS puppet in an unofficial sense, at least ThreeSpeech carries a Sony banner without even trying to appear neutral. It is kind of like Nexgenwars.com, but in the UK and with opinions presented as facts by many MS employees.

Just don't trust it, I got home from work a while ago, we already have a queue of about 20 forming outside HMV for the midnight launch tonight (I have to go back in after I have my dinner at about 10:30 and liaise with the police so they can tell us what to do if we have crowd trouble :confused: should be interesting).

Its probaly worth noting that the weather here is flipping cold at the moment, and i dont know about elsewhere but here in Somerset its been raining heavy all week. bar 1 day which was quite nice.
I dont really see the point in queing knowing that there is plenty of allocation.

Exactly - why queue when you can just go and buy one in the morning????? I guess some people want to be playing at midnight.

Exactly - why queue when you can just go and buy one in the morning????? I guess some people want to be playing at midnight.

It is because supplies are not great in Cardiff (where I live during semester), and it is only us and Virgin doing a midnight launch in the whole city. That and there are about 50,000 college students in Cardiff, about a seventh of the population.

Who is disagreeing. Funny Link Thanks!

I thought the UK:Resistance website was pretty funny too! Made me laugh anyway - classic British humour. I loved the picture of the apples! The Guardian article obviously made more of a serious point...

Judging by the pre launch press, it looks like Sony will take Europe with ease.

I thought the UK:Resistance website was pretty funny too! Made me laugh anyway - classic British humour. I loved the picture of the apples! The Guardian article obviously made more of a serious point...

Don't get me started on the Guardian, it is quite possibly the worst 'serious' newspaper, ever. Papers like the Daily Mail don't pretend to be serious so you can't help but to laugh at all of their stories about immigrants eating babies, but the Guardian is run by a bunch of loonies who are completely out of touch with the real world.

A better article which gives a fair and balanced pov [on this subject; and this subject aone] is the Daily Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/03/22/nplaystation122.xml).

Don't get me started on the Guardian, it is quite possibly the worst 'serious' newspaper, ever. Papers like the Daily Mail don't pretend to be serious so you can't help but to laugh at all of their stories about immigrants eating babies, but the Guardian is run by a bunch of loonies who are completely out of touch with the real world.

A better article which gives a fair and balanced pov [on this subject; and this subject aone] is the Daily Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/03/22/nplaystation122.xml).

Thanks for the link. BTW, I would agree with you about the Guardian! For the life of me though I can't understand why anybody would camp out for Wimbledon let alone a games console. Maybe it's just my age showing though... :D I hope the youngsters have fun tonight!

Thanks for the link. BTW, I would agree with you about the Guardian! For the life of me though I can't understand why anybody would camp out for Wimbledon let alone a games console. Maybe it's just my age showing though... :D I hope the youngsters have fun tonight!

I am just about to leave to walk to work, the wonders of being offered double pay when you are a student. :D

Just come from doing some first-hand reporting:

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/5813/img2651aw6.jpg

http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/7057/img2652crna3.jpg

The fun thing is, at about 12.45 a.m., the police came and shut the shop down! Turns out they didn't have a permit for opening outside regular business hours! LOL at the Swiss! :D

(By that time they'd sold about 80 consoles and there were about 30 frustrated and console-deprived customers.)

P.S. I didn't even try to score a PS3.

Just come from doing some first-hand reporting:


The fun thing is, at about 12.45 a.m., the police came and shut the shop down! Turns out they didn't have a permit for opening outside regular business hours! LOL at the Swiss! :D

(By that time they'd sold about 80 consoles and there were about 30 frustrated and console-deprived customers.)

P.S. I didn't even try to score a PS3.


Thanks for the report across the big pond. Much appreciated. ;)

PS3 launch was a total bomb in Australia

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=147622

Also reports from paris say the same thing too.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=147632

http://www.jeux-france.com/Webmasters/Images/10editeurs20070323_012703_13_big.jpg

That site credible?

These news sites say differently

http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/story/0,23663,21426837-7486,00.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6474045.stm

PS3 launch was a total bomb in Australia

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=147622

Also reports from paris say the same thing too.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=147632

[]

Do you really think people take staged photographs seriously?

Xbox sites show pics, as seen above, others show different angles/times with hundreds queing!

How sad do you have to be to stage photos of a console launch!

Sadder still, I've read page after page of 360/HD-DVD fans mocking the photo of one guy waiting, even after subsequent pictures show hundreds!

all i have to say is i would be freaking pissed if half the world got complete backwards compatible and we got only a minimum of it so they could save a few bucks

all i have to say is i would be freaking pissed if half the world got complete backwards compatible and we got only a minimum of it so they could save a few bucks

I don't know a SINGLE person who cares one iota about backwards compatibility, it's comng to something when this is trotted out as THE reason to pass on PS3!

If HD-DVD's big hope is Chinease players, porn and staged PS3 launch photo's, god help 'em!

http://www.jeux-france.com/Webmasters/Images/10editeurs20070323_014243_3_big.jpg

From vgcharts forum ...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/fozi999/429443942/

http://img451.imageshack.us/img451/2797/ps3preorderxp5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

That's not current. I'm guessing we'll have to wait a bit for official numbers.


With a day until the PS3 launches in Europe the Newcastle Virgin Megastore still has 72 left to pre-order. Is there any point?

PS3 launch was a total bomb in Australia

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=147622






http://www.itwire.com.au/content/view/10716/532/

http://www.jeux-france.com/Webmasters/Images/10editeurs20070323_012703_13_big.jpg
Hello...............................enyone !

wow lots of three six o fanboys around here...i own both consoles but common read around before posting pls
http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/story/0,23663,21426837-7486,00.html
pic at Pitt Street Mall in Sydney
http://www.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,5426151,00.jpg

PS3 launch was a total bomb in Australia

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=147622

Also reports from paris say the same thing too.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=147632How much are you paid for this? If not paid, you are a sad sad man :D

wow lots of three six o fanboys around here...i own both consoles but common read around before posting pls
http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/story/0,23663,21426837-7486,00.html
pic at Pitt Street Mall in Sydney
http://www.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,5426151,00.jpg


Not sure if this Austrailian news agency is credible, but htye paint a totally different picture:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/games/playstation-launch-is-a-muted-affair/2007/03/23/1174153291466.html

waepek,

on the other hand you have this coming out of Oz and the Sydney Morning Herald .

http://www.smh.com.au/news/games/playstation-launch-is-a-muted-affair/2007/03/23/1174153291466.html

So I wonder which it is, a success or a flop.

Jag,

here is your link,

http://www.itwire.com.au/content/view/10716/532/

Essentially it is a story about how Sony says the launch was a success. And you expect them to say anything different? They have already said they won, and that BD will replace SD in 3 years. Really, so Sony reps always tell the truth and Toshiba reps are nothing but spin meisters that cant be trusted. You can do better than that cant you.

Pitt st mall had 1000 people for 360 launch. 70 people for ps3 launch is a joke. I know for a fact that myer had 600 ps3s available.

Smh article is factually correct, the other articles are spun so it doesn't make the launch appear like the disaster is was. Price drop in 3 months.

more evidence for the non believers.

http://kotaku.com/gaming/ps3-launch/australian-ps3-launch-shindig-246437.php

http://www.angry-gamer.net/ag/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=450&Itemid=2

Take a look here (http://www.ukresistance.co.uk/) and here (http://technology.guardian.co.uk/weekly/story/0,,2039112,00.html)I looked at the first site this morning and thought it was hilarious. But not sure how true it will look in retrospect. I've been somewhat skeptical that the PS3 would do well in Europe, but think there is some exageration on both sides. It also looks like HD DVD has such a small absolute lead in Europte that in movie sales terms the PS3 probably won't have to sell a lot to take that lead for software sales away. The eproductwars site now has charts for the UK, Germany and Japan, so we shouldn't have to rely on just rhetoric from reporters, companies and enthusiasts. The relevant ones are:

UK: http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd-uk/
Germany: http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd-de/
Japan: http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd-jp/
US: http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd

Right now Blu-ray is ahead for average for the top 10 titles and number in the top 1000 on each of those 4 Amazon sites, but it is pretty close on the UK one. I'm not sure if they could add one for France, where Studio Canal might be helping HD DVD a lot.

--Darin

Darren, I respect your opinion, but did you really have to wait this long to admit it would be a flop overseas?

Darren, I respect your opinion, but did you really have to wait this long to admit it would be a flop overseas?I'm not admitting it is a flop at all. I don't know what it is going to be. I have said that I wasn't thinking it would do all that well out of the gate, but there were press reports about preorders going very well and I wasn't sure what to think. Not sure if I've said that here or anywhere that you've been, but I still don't know how this will turn out. It won't shock me if they sell a couple hundred thousand in the first week in the UK and it won't shock me if it is lower. Less than one hundred thousand would surprise me though if they shipped as many as I believe I heard (over a couple hundred thousand). Care to tell us how many you think they will sell in the UK in the first week since you seem to be claiming it is a flop?

I don't know how the shipments were spread out, so I'm not sure about other areas.

--Darin

Would the US launch have had all the mayhem & fighting at midnight launch it had if:


1. There was enough consoles for everyone
2. Preorders were available from almost ever retailer
3. People could waltz into a retail store on friday & pick up their ps3 as opposed to standing around in the dead of the night risking getting mugged.

We will have to wait for official sales numbers to see.

I'm not admitting it is a flop at all. I don't know what it is going to be. I have said that I wasn't thinking it would do all that well out of the gate, but there were press reports about preorders going very well and I wasn't sure what to think. Not sure if I've said that here or anywhere that you've been, but I still don't know how this will turn out. It won't shock me if they sell a couple hundred thousand in the first week in the UK and it won't shock me if it is lower. Less than one hundred thousand would surprise me though if they shipped as many as I believe I heard (over a couple hundred thousand). Care to tell us how many you think they will sell in the UK in the first week since you seem to be claiming it is a flop?

I don't know how the shipments were spread out, so I'm not sure about other areas.

--Darin

Very fair, but the PS3 opened pretty slow in Japan, I guess you could call it moderate in the US, but in both countries it was offered at a subsidized low price. Not exactly the same story in the UK (and Europe for that matter). Maybe the delay in Europe added some uncertainty, but the ~$700-800 (US) pricetag, non-seasonal timing and head start by competition should have been clues. Yes, no?

Very fair, but the PS3 opened pretty slow in Japan, I guess you could call it moderate in the US, but in both countries it was offered at a subsidized low price. Not exactly the same story in the UK (and Europe for that matter). Maybe the delay in Europe added some uncertainty, but the ~$700-800 (US) pricetag, non-seasonal timing and head start by competition should have been clues. Yes, no?Are you going to put a stake in the ground or aren't you? :)

Seriously, if you want to claim that it is a flop there and that it could have been predicted, I think you should be able to tell us how many you think they will have sold in the first week in the UK. After the fact you can of course take whatever number it actually sells and spin it as qualifying as "a flop" whether it does or not, but I think you should be able to give us a guess for a number now instead of waiting for the numbers to come in.

The reasons you gave are good reasons for it not to do well, but there are reasons the other way too. After the fact it is usually easy to come up with reasons for whatever happened and say it would have been easy to predict. The harder thing to do is to predict the numbers beforehand.

I don't think it will be under 100k for the first week and if I had to put a stake in the ground would probably say 150k for the UK in the first week (I am assuming Sony shipped them 200k or more). And 300k for all of the launch places now (basically Europe, but whatever places have the 3/23/07 launch date) is a number sticking in my head. Now hopefully we'll get some numbers and I'll get to see if I end up being wrong.

--Darin

Are you going to put a stake in the ground or aren't you? :)

Seriously, if you want to claim that it is a flop there and that it could have been predicted, I think you should be able to tell us how many you think they will have sold in the first week in the UK. After the fact you can of course take whatever number it actually sells and spin it as qualifying as "a flop" whether it does or not, but I think you should be able to give us a guess for a number now instead of waiting for the numbers to come in.

The reasons you gave are good reasons for it not to do well, but there are reasons the other way too. After the fact it is usually easy to come up with reasons for whatever happened and say it would have been easy to predict. The harder thing to do is to predict the numbers beforehand.

I don't think it will be under 100k for the first week and if I had to put a stake in the ground would probably say 150k for the UK in the first week (I am assuming Sony shipped them 200k or more). Now I'll get to see if I end up being wrong.

--Darin

What's the number of PS3s allocated to the UK ? What is the number of PS3s allocated to Europe ? You assume 200k for UK, based on the european allocated number ? Just curious really. I'm more interested in the trend than the actual launch numbers, and to see a trend we'll have to wait a bit longer.

Well, we've seen projections that say UK got 220K of supply. France supposedly received at least 100K. Not sure where that leaves the rest of the 1M launch supply (probably a good chunk in Australia, and obviously in Italy where the PS3 went on sale 2 days early).

Before the first results come in, I'll hazard a guess and say 175K sold in the UK first week. 80K sold in France. Roughly 80% of initial supply sold first week is my guess.

Well, we've seen projections that say UK got 220K of supply. France supposedly received at least 100K. Not sure where that leaves the rest of the 1M launch supply (probably a good chunk in Australia, and obviously in Italy where the PS3 went on sale 2 days early).

Before the first results come in, I'll hazard a guess and say 175K sold in the UK first week. 80K sold in France. Roughly 80% of initial supply sold first week is my guess.


I'd guess 500k sold in first week if we're talking about all launch areas.

Initial reports from France are that the PS3 launch was pretty lackluster:

EDIT: Video from the Paris (Eiffel Tower launch)

http://www.jeux-france.com/downloads7564_video-lancement-playstation-3.html


Gamers worldwide finally grab ahold of Playstation 3 consoles (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070323/lf_afp/lifestylegameplaystationcompanysony_070323030441)

15 minutes ago

LONDON (AFP) - Diehard gamers around the world, some of whom had queued for nearly two days, finally got their hands on brand spanking new Sony Playstation 3 games consoles after midnight launches in Europe, the Middle East and Australasia.

Sony and other major retailers had talked up the long-delayed launch, organising special late-night events for those who couldn't wait until Friday morning to pick theirs up, though the console's hefty price tag appeared to have dampened the consumer frenzy that greeted launches of its earlier versions.

In the basement of Virgin Megastore's flagship London outlet, hardcore video game fans who waited in line for more than a day for the midnight launch were rewarded by Sony, which gifted each of the first 125 a new 42-inch Sony TV.
"It feels great, man, especially with the free TV on top," a jubilant Atkah Armah, 28, told AFP from the store, after collecting his PS3.

"We were sitting in the queue for about 50,000 hours, and all of a sudden, some guy came out and said, 'There's a free TV', and then he goes, 'and everyone in the queue's going to get one'.

"That was pretty amazing," Armah said, adding that he was going straight home to start playing his copy of Ridge Racer.

Virgin Megastore said it had booked extra security and free taxis to whisk gamers home and avoid them falling prey to muggers.

In Paris only about 50 people turned out for the 1,000 PS3s available at a ceremonial launch at the foot of the Eiffel Tower.

Mohammed, 26, noted that the gamers were not showing the same enthusiasm that greeted the launch of PS2 in 2000 when "people were fighting each other to get their hands on it."

At over a dozen stores across the city that opened at midnight to sell the consoles few gamers were on hand to snap up a PS3, which owners put down to its price.
The PS3 does not come cheap, costing 599 euros (800 dollars) in Europe and 425 pounds (836 dollars/626 euros) in Britain.

In Berlin a rock concert was to be held at the Sony Centre, the company's European headquarters, to entertain fans waiting to buy a console.

Stores in Australia and New Zealand were the first to open their doors to eager gamers, and organisers had predicted that thousands of gaming fans would turn out to snatch up the first of the next-generation units that were given a glitzy launch at Sydney's Myers Department Store.

In the end, just 65 excited gamers queued outside Myers department store for around four hours, before being allowed inside where they barely outnumbered staff and publicists.

Nevertheless, advertising sales executive Danny Zarka, 31, said the midnight wait had been worth it.

"I was really thrilled to be the first one to get my hands on this baby before anyone else," he told AFP as he clutched his new PS3.

"It's going to be a sleepless night, but I haven't scheduled any meeting for early tomorrow," he added before heading home.

The PS3 was originally scheduled for worldwide release in November, but production problems meant it was only made available in Japan and the United States, where there were punch-ups and at least one shooting at frenzied launch events.

In the United States, Nintendo's cheaper Wii console outsold the new Sony in February by more than two-to-one, according to the NPD Group consultancy, while Microsoft's

Xbox 360 also outsold Sony's console there.

Some gaming fanatics were not buying into the hype, criticising Sony's decision to sell only the top-of-the-line 60-gigabyte version of the PS3 in Europe, Africa, the Middle East and Australasia.

Chris Stead, former editor of Australian GamePro, said he would not rush to buy the console, which retails for 1,000 dollars (808 US) in Australia, even though he was impressed with features such as a Blu-ray DVD player.

Stead said the gaming community was concerned the PS3 lacked "backward compatibility," meaning they could not use it to play games purchased for the PS1 and PS2.








http://tf1.lci.fr/infos/high-tech/0,,3419458,00-lancement-playstation-fait-bide-.html


Rough babelfish translation:

Playstation 3 fact a bide

Report - 3000 fans were awaited the foot of the Eiffel tower: only a hundred arrived... The event organized by Sony for its PS3 transferred with the failure. 95% of the consoles of the transitory store did not find taking.

Three boats. A 15 height meters inflatable Playstation. The whole with the foot of the Eiffel tower: Sony had very envisaged to make launching of its last born an event. The failure is only more resounding.

At the beginning of evening, nearly 200 journalists are on the spot. Very quickly, they feel that something bell. Whereas three months ago, for the launching of Wii de Nintendo, the spans were full as of 10 p.m., they remain hopelessly empty... The hour turning, the situation becomes critical for Sony.

The few fans having made displacement are very astonished to only find itself. Serge, 31 years, tries an explanation: "It is true that it is expensive... But with a reader High definition, that is worth the blow ". Frank, 19 years, which has patience in the cold since seven hours regrets already: "I am disappointed, it does not have nobody there. I could have waited tomorrow. Moreover, one had promised animations to us and nothing occurs ". A DJ of a radio partner, full with goodwill, continues to stress the name of the console.

40 vigils for as many customers

To the accesses of the site, Kevin, 21 years, come from Montfermeil (93) trails with his/her friends Céline and Michel. For 10 years, he has been fan of Sony and happy owner of Playstations 1 and 2 but was made drive back by the safety which claimed an invitation to him. "I come from suburbs, perhaps that my head does not return to them...".

The service of order, 40 agents mobilized since the afternoon for about as many customers, confirms at least an instruction: any purchaser must present a means of payment, blue chart or cash. "One had said to us to prepare with an multitude of 3000 people", releases, goguenard one of the vigils. Sony had announced a projection of the last James Bond, it is finally the agent gaffor of OSS 117 which is projected on a giant screen.

A form of metaphor of the evening in front of a literally deserted pit. "an not-event" Little after 10 p.m., several journalists specialized receives a sms of the marketing team from Microsoft: "Xbox TEAM wishes you a good evening". A few minutes later, a flanked barge of large streamers "Xbox 360 love you" starts return tickets in front of the site of Sony. On its roof, a handle of employees of Microsoft armed with whistles narguent the sworn enemy. The joke of schoolkid amuses.

Not at Sony in any case, where the faces are tended and where one awaits nothing any more but the end of one evening nightmare. A person in charge for the gray FNAC, co-organiser of the event, fact mine and enumerates first explanations. "Successes of Wii, unfavourable time, date badly chosen, and especially prices of the console made this evening an not-event". A 23 hours, the barge store of the FNAC accosts finally. On its roof, inflatable Playsation giantess lit by a surpuissant projector placed on the other side of the Seine. The giant screen now diffuses images of the plays of the PS3 but it makes to an arctic cold and anybody paid there attention.

Midnight.
Without cries nor applause, the first purchasers is invited to join the boat store. One by one, it arise, with the smile. In fifteen minutes, it is folded, around fifty of consoles on the thousand available are sold... The journalists ruent themselves on the first purchaser, "whom charmed". Not far from there, to the FNAC Fields-Élysées, especially open for the occasion like a dozen stores of the group in France, the shelves are still full. Here, on the 1000 consoles installation, hardly 300 were sold.

I think alot of Europeans think they won't get one on launch so they didn't bother to show up. PS2 didn't really start to move till the price came down.

Here's the bbc coverage.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6474045.stm?ls

Those guys in the london launch got a free TV! That's just sick, I tell you!

And news from down under:

Australian PS3 Launch Shindig (http://kotaku.com/gaming/ps3-launch/australian-ps3-launch-shindig-246437.php)

What if Sony threw a launch party and nobody came?

10:30pm - I'm at Pitt St. Mall, heart of Sydney's city shopping, and location for the "official" Sony launch. Not exactly official official, since it was put on by Myer in an attempt to remind people they sell video games, rather than Sony in an attempt to remind people the PS3 was coming out. But all the Sony bigwigs were there, so that's official enough for me. And you too, I imagine.

For our entertainment: a massive screen projecting Casino Royale. I've seen this already. Attempts to suggest we watch The Thing fall on deaf ears. Cut me loose, god****t, cut me loose. Not on Blu-Ray, you see. Also on offer is free coffee, ice cream and Pepsi. No Coke? "Not our sponsors, mate" comes the reply. Fair enough, I know how these things work. It's all a little impressive for a quiet Thursday night.

10:50pm - Some hot young thing from a radio station is here trying her little heart out to MC the evening by interrupting the Casino Royal screening to get everyone excited for the PS3. "Did you know the PS3 can use two remotes?" she shrieks with feigned delight. The blank stares she receives in return lets her know she said something unacceptable. She doesn't care: she's young, and beautiful, and these men are up at midnight on a school night to spend $1000 on a video games console.

11:00pm - It all starts going a little bit wrong. You see, for security purposes, crash barriers have been erected in front of the Casino Royale screen, in order to best herd the hordes of expected customers up the escalators towards their waiting PS3s. Except...nobody is here. It's an hour before kick-off, and there's probably 40 people in line. Another twenty and they might outnumber the media in attendance.

A quick run down to the EB and JB Hi-Fi at the nearby Galeries shopping centre tell a similar story: ghost towns.

Back at Myer, some radio people are grabbing teenagers (appropriately, mind) and getting them to scream "PS3!! YEAH!!!" into a mic, no doubt so all of Sydney could share in the excitement. Three kids obliged, and for the second time in the night a radio personality is met with 100 blank, disapproving stares.

11:25pm - Still nobody here. A band of douches with a filmcrew were trying to interview people about the PS3. "F***, mate, there's nobody here!" one exhales between cigarettes. "Hey, ladies!" another, the cameraman, hollers.

Two thirty-something women who had stopped for a moment to perv on Daniel Craig were pounced upon. "Hey, ladies, are you here to buy a PS3?" the interviewer pleads.

"Uh...no".

"F***! Nobody is! Well, can you pretend you are? You'll be on TV!"

Fantastic.

11:40 - A few more people have trickled in. Still, counting actual customers (and not their mates/girlfriends/crazy homeless people loitering to score free coffee and a movie) we're looking at 50, 60 tops. Only a brave man would say this is meeting expectations. Who knows why the turnout is so low? We'd have asked the non-attendees themselves if they'd attended.

The radio girl with the nice legs is still doin her thang on the m-i-c. I feel a little sorry for her. In her spare time she obviously finds the very concept of games abhorrent, yet here she is, propped up on stage at midnight on a Thursday having to pretend she knows everything about the PS3. There are worse jobs, sure, but there are also better ones.

11:50 - It's nearly go-time. Crowd is still pretty small, and is obviously going to stay that way. I feel kind of bad for the Sony guys. They all seem like really nice people, and have put on a good enough show tonight, it's just...for whatever reason, bugger-all people have felt compelled to make the midnight trip.

11:59 - We are go. The first customer in line, the lovable "Danny" ("I really thought there'd be more people here"), who will be purchasing Virtua Fighter 5, a HDMI cable and a second controller, is ushered inside for his four minutes of fame. He hits the counter, hands over his pre-order ticket, SCE Australia boss Michael Ephraim is on the other side of the counter, smiling like a father at the birth of his third child. Goods are exchanged for currency

The same tool who had tried to rig up the fake interview bellows "let's hear it for the PlayStation 3!". He had no connection to Sony whatsoever, so I'm not sure of his motives, but up went the cheers anyway. From the Myer and Sony staff, they were genuine. From the attending media, they were sarcastic, and from the waiting crowd, embarrassed smiles.

12:07 - Nothing more to see here. The crowd is probably at around 80 or so which, for the official PS3 launch in Australia's biggest city, was a piss-poor turnout. Already the barriers and screen outside are being dismantled, and as Danny rushes home to play some VF5 I'm off to bed.

Final thoughts? Last night was a bust (and not just at the official launch). Sony put on a good show, but I don't think they, or Myer, had readied themselves for the fact nobody wanted to come. Midnight launches just aren't as popular in Australia as they are in other places (it's the apathy, you see), and when you throw in the fact the PS3 has come in on the back of 5 months of bad press (including the local media) and costs AUD$1000 (which is a significant psychological barrier) the turnout was about what I was expecting.

Still, this is only the first night of thousands that this thing will be on sale. I'd expect a few to be sold today and over the weekend as people do their shopping in regular, human hours, so it'd be unfair to pass judgement on the "launch" as whole until the GfK figures come in sometime next week.

Going just on last night, though? I'm hesitant to use the word disaster, but it's not the best start for the PS3 down under. Luke Plunkett



More here:

Crowds go mild at PlayStation launch (http://www.theage.com.au/news/games/playtime-for-midnights-children/2007/03/23/1174153291466.html)

Australian mainstream press :

http://theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21432506-2702,00.html?from=public_rss

I think a lot of Europeans don't want one! It's not good when the press outnumbers the buyers! Let the spin begin!

Wow I don't know what to say, it doesn't sound like it was to exciting-except for the free ice cream and showing of James Bond.

Ouch, this is what happens when you have painfully long delays stacked up on top of crippled hardware and kick it off with inflated prices 90% more expensive than the rest of the world that got it 5 months ago...


The verdict? Die Hard Gamers imported one already and late bloomers need more incentive to plunk down that kind of cash. The PS3 won't truly take off until they have a Killer App like Metal Gear Solid 4 and Europe really deserves a price drop to at least be equal to $600USD.

The short version? The worst launch since the Challenger space craft.

http://www.angry-gamer.net/ag/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=450&Itemid=2

The PS3 did take off. But it crashed at the end of the runway! Even the fire department didn't show up to put out the fire.:)

Microsoft crashes the party.

party pic (http://www.vgcharts.org/news/)

Microsoft crashes the party.

party pic (http://www.vgcharts.org/news/)
:D :D :D
God dam that was funny :)
360 luv u long time XXX

The desperation in these HD-DVD supporters is pretty telling :rolleyes:

PS3 is selling more units in a week than total HD-DVD standalone and add-ons in a month (and probably in two months or more - who the heck knows those Hd-DVD players numbers?) and it's "failing"...if it is, then HD-DVD is long dead and gone already* :p

* HD-DVD probably sold 5k discs in the week of March 11, versus 24k for blu-ray...a 4:1 sales ratio...and this is BEFORE the release of Casino Royale....guess Fox was right when they predicted a 3.5:1 sales ratio, huh?

Btw, i think we ALL know what's gonna happen to HD-DVd once PS3 starts rolling in europe, right? right?

Still believe this? HEHEHEHE

(I have to go back in after I have my dinner at about 10:30 and liaise with the police so they can tell us what to do if we have crowd trouble :confused: should be interesting).

How was the crowd trouble? I hope your police escort escort managed to get you into your store in one piece :) Still, who wouldn't risk life and limb for double time?

You can go into any store in the UK today selling consoles and buy a PS3 straight off the shelves. No pre-ordering and no hassle.

To say it with Borat's words: Wow, I'm very surprised at the lack of launch lunacy ... .... NOT!

I really don't know anyone who'd spend a whopping 600€ on a gaming console. And once you've paid this insane price you don't even have a game yet.

There are certainly die-hards, but it'll take a while till the 1 million European units are sold.

These reports are not a surprise, but funny nonetheless. Sounds like a pretty dismal launch Hopefully this leads to a price drop in all regions.

hehe, well a few funny posts here. Anyway, my PS3 is on its way, but will not receive it until next week.

Regarding if it is a dissapointing launch or not. Does anyone actually have any sales figures here? As the press said over and over again, there was no point cuing up to get hold of the PS3 as Sony had made enough available in the shops. Hmm pretty difficult for Americans to understand I guess :cool:

I don't have a clue how much it will sell in Europe. Only thing I'm pretty certain of is that the BD vs HD DVD movie sales ratio will be similar to the US soon. I would guess between 3:1 and 5:1.

Anyway now I just need to buy a new 46" Full HD to start viewing BD movies in all its splendor. Even better, in the Autumn i can buy a $200 HD DVD player as well if its still in the game. Really can't wait to start watching HD movies. :)

vgcharts.org's estimate for australia and europe combined was 520K. r96797's estimate of 500K is closest to vgcharts'

http://www.vgcharts.org/images/ps3_sales.png (http://www.vgcharts.org)

(Hah, have to click on the link, the bitmap is old).

I'm sure the PS3 will do fine.Now that PS3 is out in all areas,I wonder if the 360 will lose it's appeal?

I'm sure the PS3 will do fine.Now that PS3 is out in all areas,I wonder if the 360 will lose it's appeal?

What 'appeal'?

The 360 is selling just as poorly as the first Xbox...

I think all the people who are interested in the PS3 as a cheap Bluray Player pre-ordered it. But I do not see that many people waiting for the PS3 to buy it in the shops. Actually I expect big piles of PS3 in the shops from the launch day on.

The PS3 is simply too expensive. Well, but maybe I am wrong. We will see. :)

Looks like I wasn't that wrong. ;)

Very entertaining posts. Now I will forever mentally link PS3 with "crazy homeless people loitering to score free coffee and movie". :)

Oh boy, this is so bad...

I'm sure the PS3 will do fine.Now that PS3 is out in all areas,I wonder if the 360 will lose it's appeal?

LOL hope does not sell consoles.

Poor launch for PS3 no matter how you slice it.

Last night in Paris:

http://blog.wiisteria.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/xboat.gif

Looks like I wasn't that wrong. ;)

Very entertaining posts. Now I will forever mentally link PS3 with "crazy homeless people loitering to score free coffee and movie". :)
Oh boy, this is so bad...
For me it will be that lonely guy and the 360 love boat :)

asj,

HD-DVD probably sold 5k discs in the week of March 11, versus 24k for blu-ray...a 4:1 sales ratio...and this is BEFORE the release of Casino Royale....guess Fox was right when they predicted a 3.5:1 sales ratio, huh?

You keep pushing this ratio, but you do realize that the ratio widened because HD sales fell more than BD sales. Both BD and HD sales dropped about 25K units that week, if the numbers are true, and the BD numbers dropped in spite of the Amazon sale. So, in your mind a widening ratio in the face of substantial drops in sales volume is a good thing I see.

Your insistance on using this as a sign of BDs strength is an indication of either pure fanboyism or a sign that you dont understand context.

So you are saying that BD is a success and smashing HD because it is failing more slowly than HD? Are you saying that a drop in BD sales is a sign of success, even if that drop is smaller than that for HD?

Is that REALLY your sign of success?

As to Fox's prediction - they also said that BD disc sales would increase and accelerate. And yet, they dropped - What about Fox's prediction there?

Besides, all you BD boys in a variety of threads were proclaiming that a million PS3s were going to be sold this weekend. If these reports are true, then Sony wont come close to that goal.

What 'appeal'?

The 360 is selling just as poorly as the first Xbox...

That's because the real highdef consoles are both rather pricey. A lot of people would pick the wii and stick to SD gaming with the current price delta --- especially since the new wii controllers and games are innovative, even though the graphics themselves are not that much better than the gamecube.

I think the PS2 probably gained a couple more years of mass production.

520K in europe and australia on launch day is probably at the low end of what Sony would have liked, but it still beat x360 based on what I remember. The real gaming console story is wii --- we'll have to see if this continues next year.

LOL hope does not sell consoles.

Poor launch for PS3 no matter how you slice it.

Let's see poor launch for PSone,Ps2,Ps3,Xbox,Xbox 360,Wii,Dreamcast,Turbographics 16,Genesis,SuperNes...List goes on...no such thing as a good launch...If it sells outs at launch,it's a failure since they didn't make enough for demand,if it still is sitting on the self at launch,it's a failure since it's not selling....pick one.

Are you going to put a stake in the ground or aren't you? :)
--Darin

I'm not knowledged enough in the area to make accurate sales predictions, but based on what I thought the reaction would be, I am actually quite surprised. Even I thought the reception would have been better.

That being said, I had a dream last night I picked up a PS3 with the winnings from my NCAA pool. Made me think, if I do win some cash, I will pick up a 20GB model. ;)

LOL hope does not sell consoles.

Poor launch for PS3 no matter how you slice it.

:rolleyes:

So the you have the launch day/week PAL PS3 sales numbers?

I love hearing these fanboys desperately trying to spin the launch. As the numbers start coming in it goes from:

Fanboys: Poor launch

Early estimates start coming out...

Fanboys: Poor launch no matter how you slice it

PAL PS3 launch sales numbers exceed Wii and 360 launch numbers combined...

Fanboys: Poor launch lalalala I'm not listening!

So spin fanboys, spin. You only have a few more days until the first real launch sales numbers start being made public and you slink back to making up stories about how you saw 50 PS3 that were dusty at your local retailer...

Giving away Tv's and a free ride home in Europe does not sound like a good launch.