Just noticed during PTI that ESPN HD has a new pillar bar design. They now say ESPNHD rather then just HD.

I'm kinda surprised they don't say ESPN on ESPN HD the way things have been going at ESPN. :)

great more letters for image retention

Same deal with ESPN2 HD.

great more letters for image retention

Atleast on ESPN and ESPN2 the pillarbars move every few seconds to help reduce risk of burn in.

The new ones move?

They suck, especially for the CRT that I can't get rid of the overscan.

Atleast on ESPN and ESPN2 the pillarbars move every few seconds to help reduce risk of burn in.

Those pillars are stills. If they are moving there's a big problem. Right now there are pillars for ESPNHD and separate ones for ESPN2HD (which makes it very convenient to quickly determine which network you are watching). My guess is these new pillars might be modified somewhat over the next little while.

Those pillars are stills. If they are moving there's a big problem. Right now there are pillars for ESPNHD and separate ones for ESPN2HD (which makes it very convenient to quickly determine which network you are watching). My guess is these new pillars might be modified somewhat over the next little while.


Actually - they aren't completely stills.

I do see motion in the grays......

Yuk, I like the older ones better. I think the logos on tickers at the bottom of the screen are also new..

Same deal with ESPN2 HD.

I thought they were getting rid of the 2/Deuce?

I don't know what the deal is but the PQ for HD and HD2 looks much sharper showing SD programming tonight on D* than I remember in the past.

The native pillars I get with ESPN SD are wider than the pillars I'm seeing on ESPN HD.

ESPN HD is like, 4:3+

Why is that?

At least they didn't change it so much that we have to change what we tell newbies:

The way you can tell what you are watching on ESPNHD is simple - if it says HD on the sides it isn't in HD, if you don't see HD on the sides, it is in HD. ;)

I thought they were getting rid of the 2/Deuce?

Just the in program branding is gone. ESPN2 will still be reffered to as ESPN2 for promo and scheduling purposes. However all content inside of the program will only have the ESPN branding.

Think of it as ESPN on ESPN2.

Everything is now ESPN on ___. ESPN on ABC, ESPN on ESPN-HD, ESPN on ESPN2, etc.

At least they didn't change it so much that we have to change what we tell newbies:

The way you can tell what you are watching on ESPNHD is simple - if it says HD on the sides it isn't in HD, if you don't see HD on the sides, it is in HD. ;)

That makes perfect sense to me.

It will be interesting to see how ESPN/ABC brands the national spelling bee coming up in May. Last year the finals were on ABC with a special graphics package for ABC, no hint of ESPN or ABC Sports. I wonder if this program will again be branded as an ABC show or a ESPN on ABC show. BTW, it is scheduled to be in HD again this year on ABC.

The beginning of SportsCenter says "Available on ESPN on ESPN HD". That seems unecessary since it's really the same channel.

It will be interesting to see how ESPN/ABC brands the national spelling bee coming up in May. Last year the finals were on ABC with a special graphics package for ABC, no hint of ESPN or ABC Sports. I wonder if this program will again be branded as an ABC show or a ESPN on ABC show. BTW, it is scheduled to be in HD again this year on ABC.
They used to be on ESPN2. So I assume they consider it sports and will therefore use an ESPN graphics pack. I'm curious to see what ESPN will be using for baseball this season with their graphics. All their spring training games used the old black theme and not the new red 3D style.

The beginning of SportsCenter says "Available on ESPN on ESPN HD". That seems unecessary since it's really the same channel.
Thats the whole idea behind this though. Its the idea that "ESPN" is not a channel but a brand, maybe even a image or lifestyle. BY doing this you can see "ESPN" on insert your outlet here. It just so happen that the brand name and the name of one of the outlets is the same. I'm kinda surprised the top of espn.com does not say ESPN on ESPN.com

Now they need to have "Your're watching ESPN on ESPN" so you know you're watching ESPN.

Now they need to have "Your're watching ESPN on ESPN" so you know you're watching ESPN.
It's probably not that far off.

I like the new pillarbars after watching for awhile. They're nowhere near as bright as the old ones, so on first look they are not as distracting. The darker portion of the bar is nearly black as it approaches the SD frame, thus helping the SD frame stand out much better than it did before. There's less contrast within the bars, resulting in a cleaner look that's definitely more professional.

Give them some time and I think they'll tweak it even more. So far, I love it.

I wish they would put PTI on in HD

Do you really want to see Kornheiser in HD?? :(

What's Wrong With Tony Kornheiser In HDTV? (http://www.tvpredictions.com/kornheiserhd082806.htm)

Do you really want to see Kornheiser in HD?? :(

What's Wrong With Tony Kornheiser In HDTV? (http://www.tvpredictions.com/kornheiserhd082806.htm)


Sure why not anything in HD is better than SD

Do you really want to see Kornheiser in HD?? :(

What's Wrong With Tony Kornheiser In HDTV? (http://www.tvpredictions.com/kornheiserhd082806.htm)

Already have.

The 4:3 frame appears larger because the new bars gradient down to black which on certain video appears to grow the 4:3 frame, and the edges are somewhat feathered. Also you should not be seeing movement in those pillars. If you are seeing movement its a compression artifact. I can assure you they are generated by a still store. The old pillars used to 'swim' sometimes (especially on D*) but that was a compression issue, they definitely are not generated that way in Bristol. For some reason the 'movement' is less pronounced when the stills are coming from a control room switcher (i.e. live sporting event or studio show) or from edit (highlights) than when master control is generating them (commercial breaks, taped programming). But they are generated downstream from master as opposed to upstream when coming through a control room switcher.But its very hard to dilineate what is what since pillars can be inserted live on air, in the edit process or downstream by master control and you can see all three used in the same show from time to time.

ABC,

Any word on PTI going HD?

PTI won't go HD unless they move it to Bristol like they're doing with Cold Pizza on ESPN2.

Since Kornheiser and Wilbon don't live in Connecticut, it's not moving to Bristol.

Anyway, I thought the reason Cold Pizza moved to Bristol was because the viewership was too small to justify rebuilding the NY studio. Plus they're retooling the show anyway with the move.

Given that PTI is inserted into Sportscenter just to boost viewership of Sportscenter, I don't think PTI has the same viewership problem. Of course, PTI has a different problem (aside from being produced by a company that's not ESPN): the fact that they do a significant portion of shows with one host via remote. There's no point in switching to HD if Wilbon is going to be sitting behind an SD camera.

Since Kornheiser and Wilbon don't live in Connecticut, it's not moving to Bristol.

Anyway, I thought the reason Cold Pizza moved to Bristol was because the viewership was too small to justify rebuilding the NY studio. Plus they're retooling the show anyway with the move.

Given that PTI is inserted into Sportscenter just to boost viewership of Sportscenter, I don't think PTI has the same viewership problem. Of course, PTI has a different problem (aside from being produced by a company that's not ESPN): the fact that they do a significant portion of shows with one host via remote. There's no point in switching to HD if Wilbon is going to be sitting behind an SD camera.


All good points I guess it will be a while if ever. I hate the fact that they split up the show with Sportscenter in the middle thank god for FF

As for the pillars moving, I agree it is a compression artifact. I'm watching on E* and saw some "movement" on ESPN-HD (MPEG2) but not on ESPN2-HD (MPEG4). And I normally feel the PQ on ESPN2-HD is much better than ESPN-HD so I think this shows it is a compression issue probably on E*'s end of things.

PTI is one the highest rated shows consistently on ESPN often outrating many live sporting events. But because its an EOE deal and the production is based out of D.C. it will not be going HD anytime soon. There just isnt much bang for the buck to do a show like PTI in HD. Not only the the entire newsgathering operation and HD infrastructure is in Bristol. It's more than just cameras, it's HD footage, HD graphics, etc. All of those are in abundance in Bristol, but not easily acquirable out of house. Cold Pizza is actually currently done in an HD studio, but for all the aforementioned reasons (in addition to the costs of transmitting an HD feed to and from Bristol everyday), it's just not feasable to do Cold Pizza in HD. Moving the show to Bristol, particurally given its low ratings is much more reasonable. That being said Mike & Mike in the Morning and Cold Pizza are slated to go HD in the next few months as well as a couple of more HD shows on the plate for later this year.

At least they didn't change it so much that we have to change what we tell newbies:

The way you can tell what you are watching on ESPNHD is simple - if it says HD on the sides it isn't in HD, if you don't see HD on the sides, it is in HD. ;)Yes, it doesn't make a lot of sense, but at least it's consistent. I guess they want to use the space for some kind of branding, but wouldn't ESPN and ESPN2 be enough? It's not like the programming is any different - perhaps it's just to keep people from leaving the channel looking for something else in "HD". :rolleyes:

ABC,

Thanks for the explanation. PTI is just a great show to watch I have been for years and it is the 1st thing I watch at night once I settle into my recliner. I didn't realize it was that highly rated that is great news.

That pillar bar logic works until they use the soft blurred pillars for 4:3 video.

PTI is the best show on espn, period...their sports coverage for the most part, blows.

That pillar bar logic works until they use the soft blurred pillars for 4:3 video.
Yeah, but you can just say when you see those, it's time to head to the fridge.

PTI is the best show on espn, period...their sports coverage for the most part, blows.

Wow I guess you don't like them LOL. I agree they have several personalities on their shows that I don't care for but there are a few like college gameday during football is a great show.

The ESPN HD website has two videos that explain that you may not be watching HD even though you have an HDTV, and to contact your cable/sat provider. (Need to refresh the page to see both videos.)

Comcast just added ESPN Deportes today in Baltimore as part of the Spanish language tier. I don't know if it says "you're watching ESPN on ESPN Deportes" (yet).

Tu Mira ESPN en ESPN Deportes.
:P

I agree.. PTI is a great show. The chemistry between Tony Kornheiser and Michael Wilbon is very good. You know that these two are very good friends off camera, and it shows on camera.

Great show!

I definitely prefer the new pillars. They are not so in-your-face and obtrusive as the others. Now, the show is more important than announcing to the world what you are watching. In an age of graphic overload - the apparent need for networks to constantly give us every statistic known to man while taking away valuable screen space from game action – it’s nice to see a step in the right direction. Yeah, I know that last sentence doesn’t have much to do with the pillars; I just wanted ABCTV99 to know many of us aren’t so hyper that we need or want to be entertained by anything other than THE GAME.

Here is a screen shot of the bars from ESPNHD and ESPN2HD. ESPN2HD doesn't really leave alot of room for the actual program do they?

ESPNHD (http://www.doinkdoink.us/espnHD.jpg)
ESPN2HD (http://www.doinkdoink.us/espn2HD.jpg)

I definitely prefer the new pillars. They are not so in-your-face and obtrusive as the others. Now, the show is more important than announcing to the world what you are watching. In an age of graphic overload - the apparent need for networks to constantly give us every statistic known to man while taking away valuable screen space from game action – it’s nice to see a step in the right direction. Yeah, I know that last sentence doesn’t have much to do with the pillars; I just wanted ABCTV99 to know many of us aren’t so hyper that we need or want to be entertained by anything other than THE GAME.

Amen to that brother I couldn't agree more with you I could do with a tiny box in the upper corner of the screen and that is it. Heck only show it partially even not through the whole game. I see a beautiful widescreen shot of the sporting event being shown then some gigantic graphic comes up on your screen sucking up space and being obtrusive. In my book less is more with the people in the graphics departments of these networks could get that through their head. ESPN especially with their scoreboard for basketball plastered across the screen. One of many reasons I don't watch it.

Here is a screen shot of the bars from ESPNHD and ESPN2HD. ESPN2HD doesn't really leave alot of room for the actual program do they?

ESPNHD (http://www.doinkdoink.us/espnHD.jpg)
ESPN2HD (http://www.doinkdoink.us/espn2HD.jpg)
That's a bad example. Mike and Mike is currently done using ESPNews resources. As a result, they use the same bottom line and pushback effect.

In my book less is more with the people in the graphics departments of these networks could get that through their head. ESPN especially with their scoreboard for basketball plastered across the screen. One of many reasons I don't watch it.

That's really somewhat of a losing battle as most of those decisions are dictated by production heads (producers and executives) moreso than graphic designers. I agree that there is a trend toward way too much (ESPN studio shows are particurally bad, as they'll spend 15 or 30 seconds on a graphic). Some of ESPN's insert graphics are fairly clean and unitrusive and others are a bit bulky. It's just a school of thought where they feel dissemenating the information is more important than what it looks like. I hate to say it like that but its honestly true. Truth be told the Monday Night Football look with the centered lower-third bug, actually worked very well to preserve screen space (even though everyone hated it), it did let the frame breathe tremendously, and often cameras were cut with no bug at all as the bug transformed to lower-third graphics. The NBA look stays in the entire time.

Until there's a realization that producers can make a point with less (which may not happen because ESPN has a number of production personnel who come from print media and cable news, which further complicates the issue) this isn't likely to change anytime soon, but is rather more likely to just get worse unfortunately.

That's really somewhat of a losing battle as most of those decisions are dictated by production heads (producers and executives) moreso than graphic designers. I agree that there is a trend toward way too much (ESPN studio shows are particurally bad, as they'll spend 15 or 30 seconds on a graphic). Some of ESPN's insert graphics are fairly clean and unitrusive and others are a bit bulky. It's just a school of thought where they feel dissemenating the information is more important than what it looks like. I hate to say it like that but its honestly true. Truth be told the Monday Night Football look with the centered lower-third bug, actually worked very well to preserve screen space (even though everyone hated it), it did let the frame breathe tremendously, and often cameras were cut with no bug at all as the bug transformed to lower-third graphics. The NBA look stays in the entire time.

Until there's a realization that producers can make a point with less (which may not happen because ESPN has a number of production personnel who come from print media and cable news, which further complicates the issue) this isn't likely to change anytime soon, but is rather more likely to just get worse unfortunately.
I loved the MNF score bug for that exact reason. It was clean and unobtrusive. Is this new red and black becoming the standard for ESPNs in-game graphics?

When did ESPN add the progress bar to the ticker? I noticed the other day that under the current ticker topic is a small progress bar that shows how close they are to the end of that topic.

When did ESPN add the progress bar to the ticker? I noticed the other day that under the current ticker topic is a small progress bar that shows how close they are to the end of that topic.
Been there as long as I can remember the full-time bottom line. It has also been on ESPN Newsfor a long time.

The beginning of SportsCenter says "Available on ESPN on ESPN HD". That seems unecessary since it's really the same channel.
I wonder if they got this idea from the Los Angelas Angels of Anaheim?

As for the pillars moving, I agree it is a compression artifact. I'm watching on E* and saw some "movement" on ESPN-HD (MPEG2) but not on ESPN2-HD (MPEG4). And I normally feel the PQ on ESPN2-HD is much better than ESPN-HD so I think this shows it is a compression issue probably on E*'s end of things.
There you go.

E* and D* are protecting you plasma by preventing any image from actually being static. The compression is a public service...

Been there as long as I can remember the full-time bottom line. It has also been on ESPN Newsfor a long time.

I guess I just never noticed it before.

I wonder if they got this idea from the Los Angelas Angels of Anaheim?

Its ridiculous convoluted branding no doubt the sales and marketing folks had a hand in. Most consumers don't understand enough about HD to begin with. They get a plasma or an LCD, turn to normal ESPN in stretched 4:3 and think they're watching HD. Branding a show ESPN on ESPNHD doesn't help matters. It's a very very poor branding move.

By the way that red and black insert graphic look that you seen on NBA, Monday Night Football, Nascar and Arena is the new professional sports insert graphics look. Not sure if they'll roll it out for baseball just yet, though. College sports and studio shows are staying with the old look for now.

When did ESPN add the progress bar to the ticker? I noticed the other day that under the current ticker topic is a small progress bar that shows how close they are to the end of that topic.

what exactly are you referring to when you say end of the topic? Are you talking about PTI or normal studio shows? For normal studio shows the bottom line is independent of anything going on with the show itself. Each show has its own bottom line but rarely does the information correlate.

what exactly are you referring to when you say end of the topic? Are you talking about PTI or normal studio shows? For normal studio shows the bottom line is independent of anything going on with the show itself. Each show has its own bottom line but rarely does the information correlate.
He is referring to the little line that decreases as the scores are shown. For each sport it starts at 100% and ticks down as each score goes by.

It can be seen in shortkud's screen cap from ESPN2 during Mike and Mike as the yellow line under NBA.

He is referring to the little line that decreases as the scores are shown. For each sport it starts at 100% and ticks down as each score goes by.

It can be seen in shortkud's screen cap from ESPN2 during Mike and Mike as the yellow line under NBA.

Yep, that's what I'm talking about. It's very noticeable on the Mike and Mike screen cap because it's up high, but on Sportscenter, where I first noticed it, it's at the very bottom of the screen and for some might be off the screen.

It's been there for a while now. Most people probably can't see it because of overscan.

The 4:3 frame appears larger because the new bars gradient down to black which on certain video appears to grow the 4:3 frame, and the edges are somewhat feathered.

Nope. I have a 57" 16:9 TV. The bars on ESPN HD mesure out at about 4 1/2" of width on each side. On ESPN SD, they measure out at 6". It's not an optical illusion. I measured when figure skating was on so it was white ice against black bars.

Nope. I have a 57" 16:9 TV. The bars on ESPN HD mesure out at about 4 1/2" of width on each side. On ESPN SD, they measure out at 6". It's not an optical illusion. I measured when figure skating was on so it was white ice against black bars.
I've always wondered what that is. When I upconvert SD material, it always looks wider, but when I leave it in native 480i on my Sony HD 1080i CRT, the bars are MUCH thicker. The local station's content looks even more wide, especially NBC 4 (WRC, Washington), which practically looks 14:9.

Nope. I have a 57" 16:9 TV. The bars on ESPN HD mesure out at about 4 1/2" of width on each side. On ESPN SD, they measure out at 6". It's not an optical illusion. I measured when figure skating was on so it was white ice against black bars.
How are you feeding your TV the cable signal? I have noticed that some cable boxes and TVs will cut off the sides or slightly squeeze a SD signal even on a 16x9 screen.

Nope. I have a 57" 16:9 TV. The bars on ESPN HD mesure out at about 4 1/2" of width on each side. On ESPN SD, they measure out at 6". It's not an optical illusion. I measured when figure skating was on so it was white ice against black bars.
It's possible there is a slight DVE push going on with the HD version in order to keep the pillars out of sight on the 4:3 feed.

It's possible there is a slight DVE push going on with the HD version in order to keep the pillars out of sight on the 4:3 feed.

I suppose it depends on the programming. I know 4:3 material that originates during a live show is never pushed. To my knowledge ESPN and ESPNHD are fed by two separate master controls that shadow each other. On top of that the pillars are generally introduced downstream of the digital feed (during 4:3 programming and commercials -- pillars for games and studio shows are generally introduced in the control room).

It's possible you could potentially see pillars bleed over on a 4:3 highlight during Sportscenter or something, but given the way the shows are produced its unlikely. It also introduces a ton of production issues if your safe action and safe title areas ultimately aren't accurate. This doesn't preclude some sort of picture manipulation however during the tranmission phase at either the uplink or downlink points.

How are you feeding your TV the cable signal? I have noticed that some cable boxes and TVs will cut off the sides or slightly squeeze a SD signal even on a 16x9 screen.

I have D*, feeding the signal with component cables. All I know is, every single SD channel I get has pillar bars the same size as I get with ESPN SD.

When I turn on ESPN HD or ESPN2 HD, and the source is SD, the frame is wider, and the pillar bars are are shorter in width than with the actual SD cannel. Oddly though, my D* receiver reads the source as 720p even though it isn't.

I have D*, feeding the signal with component cables. All I know is, every single SD channel I get has pillar bars the same size as I get with ESPN SD.

When I turn on ESPN HD or ESPN2 HD, and the source is SD, the frame is wider, and the pillar bars are are shorter in width than with the actual SD cannel. Oddly though, my D* receiver reads the source as 720p even though it isn't.
You receiver says it is a 720p because it is. When ESPN HD is showing SD material it is upconverted to 720p. It is also 720p, your receiver doesn't know the difference between real 720p HD and SD upconverted to 720p HD.

..This doesn't preclude some sort of picture manipulation however during the tranmission phase at either the uplink or downlink points.
That's more what i was thinking of.

On the other hand, maybe his TV is cropping the 4:3 image a bit when displaying the 4:3 SD channel - hence bigger bars. It could literally be masking the sides slightly to yield a cleaner edge.

You receiver says it is a 720p because it is. When ESPN HD is showing SD material it is upconverted to 720p. It is also 720p, your receiver doesn't know the difference between real 720p HD and SD upconverted to 720p HD.
And it sees it as 16x9, too. The pillars are actual video contained in the image, unlike black bars placed there by, say, a DVD player.

You receiver says it is a 720p because it is. When ESPN HD is showing SD material it is upconverted to 720p. It is also 720p, your receiver doesn't know the difference between real 720p HD and SD upconverted to 720p HD.


That makes sense. That also explains why the ESPN HD 4:3 SD PQ looks better than the normal 4:3 ESPN SD channel.

Thanks for solving that issue for me.

That makes sense. That also explains why the ESPN HD 4:3 SD PQ looks better than the normal 4:3 ESPN SD channel.

Thanks for solving that issue for me.

Well yes and no. For instance SD 4:3 material that airs in a studio show or an HD game on ESPN is upconverted to 720p to pass through the control room, and then downconverted again back to SD for air on ESPN. So a lot of the time (actually the vast majority of the time) what you're seeing on ESPN is SD video that's being upconverted to pass through the HD signal chain and then downconverted to get to your home. Keep in mind there are lot of other issues that affect the PQ of an SD channel, analog signal, downrezzing, overcompression, etc (probably moreso than an HD channel just not as immediately noticeable).

It's possible there is a slight DVE push going on with the HD version in order to keep the pillars out of sight on the 4:3 feed.


The ESPN and ESPN2 SD services are downconverted centercut versions of their respective HD counterparts.

The ESPN and ESPN2 SD services are downconverted centercut versions of their respective HD counterparts.
Hence, maybe there is a slight DVE push going on with the HD version in order to keep the pillars out of sight on the 4:3 feed. The push insures the centercutting stays in the video portion, no matter how much or how little overscan there is.

It should be noted that Pillarbox is not the correct term - one might want to learn the term "wings". Say it 10 times now and own it in the future :D

You will be seeing a lot of 4:3 with wings over the next 5 or so years:

http://www.nbcumv.com/release_detail.nbc/news-20070320000000-nbcnightlynews47.html

'NBC NIGHTLY NEWS WITH BRIAN WILLIAMS' BECOMES THE FIRST NETWORK EVENING NEWSCAST TO BROADCAST IN HIGH-DEFINITION TELEVISION

HD viewers will see "Nightly News" in a fully detailed 1080i picture in 16:9 ratio (widescreen), while field reports will continue in 4:3 ratio with wings, for now. NBC News expects to begin using HD gear in the field later this year. However, reporting from the White House lawn will be available in widescreen HD on March 26. Standard Definition (SDTV) viewers will have a 4:3 picture as they do now, albeit with noticeably improved clarity and quality.

For the technically minded who want to know how this is done:

http://www.leitch.com/resources/applicationNotes/NEOApplicationMarch2006.pdf

[QUOTE=HDTVFanAtic]It should be noted that Pillarbox is not the correct term - one might want to learn the term "wings". Say it 10 times now and own it in the future :D

Yea but most shops Ive been around refer to them as pillars. So that nomenclature might be around for awhile. Kind of like how Character Generators are often ubiquitously referred to as Chyrons or NLEs are called AVIDs regardless of the manufacturer.

[QUOTE=HDTVFanAtic]It should be noted that Pillarbox is not the correct term - one might want to learn the term "wings". Say it 10 times now and own it in the future :D

Yea but most shops Ive been around refer to them as pillars. So that nomenclature might be around for awhile. Kind of like how Character Generators are often ubiquitously referred to as Chyrons or NLEs are called AVIDs regardless of the manufacturer.
...anlong with TiVo, Kleenex, SOS scrubbers...

You can't argue with brand familiarity.

My Samsung tuner calls the format "pillar box" in its menus as well.

No, pillar box is when a solid color fills in the screen. The wings are not solid colors and have information inserted on them - thus the screen is not pillar box - because there is distinct controlled content of more than one solid color on the wings.

No, pillar box is when a solid color fills in the screen. The wings are not solid colors and have information inserted on them - thus the screen is not pillar box - because there is distinct controlled content of more than one solid color on the wings.
Sounds like semantics to me. I would think one could use them interchangeably and any reasonable person would understand what they were talking about.

No, pillar box is when a solid color fills in the screen. The wings are not solid colors and have information inserted on them - thus the screen is not pillar box - because there is distinct controlled content of more than one solid color on the wings.

I would think the only meaningful distinction that you could draw would be: pillarbox refers to empty bars. If there's content in the bars, then it's by definition not pillarbox. It's 4:3 content with wings.

Sounds like semantics to me. I would think one could use them interchangeably and any reasonable person would understand what they were talking about.


And you can call a lightbulb a gas filled cylinder that lights up when electricity is applied - on the other hand, when people are using the search function in AVS and cannot get a hit because AVSers don't care to use Industry accepted nomenclature and considering 4:3 with Wings will be a topic for the next 5 plus years.....

Pillars are solid to fill up the screen primarily due to burn in.

As the wings have info in them - it is an accurate description - the main picture is 4:3 but there are Wings with information in it to expand to a 16:9 ratio.

No, pillar box is when a solid color fills in the screen. The wings are not solid colors and have information inserted on them - thus the screen is not pillar box - because there is distinct controlled content of more than one solid color on the wings.

I would think the only meaningful distinction that you could draw would be: pillarbox refers to empty bars. If there's content in the bars, then it's by definition not pillarbox. It's 4:3 content with wings.

That is exactly what I said in the post you quoted.

And information can be anything from squiggly lines to HD logo or anything that changes the pilars from a solid color to something more - and thus 4:3 with wings.

And you can call a lightbulb a gas filled cylinder that lights up when electricity is applied - on the other hand, when people are using the search function in AVS and cannot get a hit because AVSers don't care to use Industry accepted nomenclature and considering 4:3 with Wings will be a topic for the next 5 plus years.....
Must not be wide spread Industry accepted nomenclature as evidenced by those posters who are in the industry who have called them pillarbars in this thread.

At least people who search will be educated about both these terms if they use google search as this thread is the number one hit for pillarbars hdtv.

And you can call a lightbulb a gas filled cylinder that lights up when electricity is applied - on the other hand, when people are using the search function in AVS and cannot get a hit because AVSers don't care to use Industry accepted nomenclature and considering 4:3 with Wings will be a topic for the next 5 plus years.....

Pillars are solid to fill up the screen primarily due to burn in.

As the wings have info in them - it is an accurate description - the main picture is 4:3 but there are Wings with information in it to expand to a 16:9 ratio.
Who do you think is going to come in here and do a search for "ESPN Wings"? Maybe on a board discussing the ESPN Zone...

Get over it. It's become common place to refer to them as pillars, pillar bars, or a pillar box. Heck, I'm told even ESPN calls them pillar bars. If they call 'em that, it stands to reason we can do it when discussing the channel. Honestly, I don't know anyone except you that calls them wings - and I know many people at various levels of the industry from local to the networks. None of them use the term "wings" and none that I asked have ever heard anyone else use it. The closest thing they have heard is regular users calling them "side curtains".

It like the computer geeks getting in an uproar wanting people to start using kibibytes instead of kilobytes to describe memory. It's not going to happen.

The lexicon has already become established - right or wrong. Feel free to use whatever term you feel comfortable with, but most people know them as pillars and will perform a search for topics based on that. If you think someone might use your term, feel free to pop in and type it in a post. Then any search will find it. Problem solved.

Who do you think is going to come in here and do a search for "ESPN Wings"? Maybe on a board discussing the ESPN Zone...

Get over it. It's become common place to refer to them as pillars, pillar bars, or a pillar box. Heck, I'm told even ESPN calls them pillar bars. If they call 'em that, it stands to reason we can do it when discussing the channel. Honestly, I don't know anyone except you that calls them wings - and I know many people at various levels of the industry from local to the networks. None of them use the term "wings" and none that I asked have ever heard anyone else use it. The closest thing they have heard is regular users calling them "side curtains".

It like the computer geeks getting in an uproar wanting people to start using kibibytes instead of kilobytes to describe memory. It's not going to happen.

The lexicon has already become established - right or wrong. Feel free to use whatever term you feel comfortable with, but most people know them as pillars and will perform a search for topics based on that. If you think someone might use your term, feel free to pop in and type it in a post. Then any search will find it. Problem solved.


They will search for Wings.

Too bad your days of NetworkTV have long passed and technology moves on.

Perhaps you still call radio a Wireless or Television Radio with Pictures :rolleyes:

They will search for Wings.

Too bad your days of NetworkTV have long passed and technology moves on.

Perhaps you still call radio a Wireless or Television Radio with Pictures :rolleyes:

So if ESPN calls them pillar bars, in a thread about ESPN, were all supposed to call them wings?
Heck, I'm told even ESPN calls them pillar bars.

They will search for Wings.

Too bad your days of NetworkTV have long passed and technology moves on.

Perhaps you still call radio a Wireless or Television Radio with Pictures :rolleyes:
Whatever makes you feel like a real "TV expert". Go gripe about wings on MySpace....

For your information, I happen to work in a part of the industry that deals in the most current and upcoming technology that only a few people have even seen. Technology is moving on because guys like me are steering it on its path. I'm able to do this by keeping in contact both with newcomers and old-time veterans in the industry. It's both experience and forward thinking that creates new ideas and technology that can be easily integrated into existing operations.

In all my dealings with those professionals, they have always used the term "pillar bars". Perhaps a poll might change your mind about what constitutes "industry terms".

So, contrary to your immature (and woefully unprofessional sounding) post, I am quite caught up with current media technologies. Furthermore, I'd appreciate you never again assuming what role I play in television. You have no idea what I do.

Should we rename them to red bull?

They will search for Wings.


No they won’t. Wings went off the air years ago. :p

So, the PR person at NBC used wings and now the entire industry is transformed? Any chance she doesn’t know what the heck she is talking about? Do a search and see how many times you come up with wings when discussing those bars on the side of the TV. I want to see more quoted examples where the industry is calling them ‘wings.’

Let’s hope they don’t engrave inscriptions of the Constitution on the pillars of The Capitol Building, because that will greatly confuse everyone when they start calling them wings. :rolleyes:

wtf....... i thought this topic was about espn's new graphics package that pretty much does the same thing as the old graphic.

That is exactly what I said in the post you quoted.

And information can be anything from squiggly lines to HD logo or anything that changes the pilars from a solid color to something more - and thus 4:3 with wings.

Under your definition, a solid red fill of the pillar space would still be considered pillarbox instead of wing even though the red fill indicates content. That was my gripe.

i still do not understand the purpose of ESPN on ESPNHD

i liked it just saying ESPNHD


also: wouldn't doing PTI in HD be semi-pointless, kinda the same annoyance that comes with ESPN's draft interface that covers up the lower third and far right?

when i think of "with wings," all i think of is kotex...not espn

Enough of the needless discussion.

also: wouldn't doing PTI in HD be semi-pointless, kinda the same annoyance that comes with ESPN's draft interface that covers up the lower third and far right?

Well, presumably they'd have to build new graphics for PTI HD anyway, and they could always just run the graphic horizontal in a crawl rather than vertical (much like Around the Horn). The current PTI graphic set is already pretty wasteful of space (but so is ESPN's entire lower third, really).

It's a bit quirky really. The new in-game graphics are, on the whole, fairly sleek and inobtrusive. The studio packages feel so bulky by comparison. Maybe the ESPNEWS HD rollout will bring with it a new studio package that's more sleek. ESPN of late does seem geared towards keeping their brand simple and uniform, so ESPNEWS HD could be the impetus for a new studio package across the ESPN networks.

It's a bit quirky really. The new in-game graphics are, on the whole, fairly sleek and inobtrusive. The studio packages feel so bulky by comparison. Maybe the ESPNEWS HD rollout will bring with it a new studio package that's more sleek. ESPN of late does seem geared towards keeping their brand simple and uniform, so ESPNEWS HD could be the impetus for a new studio package across the ESPN networks.

One would hope. The studio package is a lot less complex than the remote package. They tend to design graphics on the bulky side in general for the studio -- lots of wasted space or lower-third topic graphics that take up too much screen space relative to the amount of information on the screen.

It seems there's generally a lot less to work with on the studio side, mostly half screens, full screens and simple lower thirds. What will be the impetus for updating the studio package will be the operation switching completely to VIZRT. They extensively use VIZRT in the studio for desk monitors, matchup transitions, and animated graphics, but only Sportscenter uses VIZ machines for the entire insert graphics package and this just came online last fall after much R&D.

ESPN remotes in comparison use VIZ Trio outfits for everything. The studio is still lingering with last generation DEKO HD machines. ESPNEWS should be an all VIZRT outfit and will undoubtedly have its own look as it does now, but there are a lot more hoops to jump through to get the entire studio side up to par with remote because of the way everything interfaces and networks together. There are media object servers, broadcast automation systems, the ENPS newsroom management systems and a myriad of ESPN robust adhoc applications that tie all these together transparently and allow on-air playout and management with third-party applications. There is an unprecidented level of digital interconnectivity in Bristol, so it's much more than just buying a new piece of gear.

And its a very costly proposition as well, it isn't just a matter of redesigning animations. There still remains a lot of workflow and research and development that needs to take place.