Hi all,
I need a speaker system to hook up to a yamaha RXV2700.
$3500 has to cover all 7 speakers plus sub.

Not sure if I should splurge on center and fronts and cheap out the others or get all around good speakers.

Room is 25 wide by 15 deep. Center is on the 25 wall.

Any advice on brands/models will be great.

Thx!

I am around the same budget and have chosen the higher end setup from axiom audio. That's just me though.

Hi all,
I need a speaker system to hook up to a yamaha RXV2700.
$3500 has to cover all 7 speakers plus sub.

Not sure if I should splurge on center and fronts and cheap out the others or get all around good speakers.

Room is 25 wide by 15 deep. Center is on the 25 wall.

Any advice on brands/models will be great.

Thx!

I would find some local dealers you can trust. There is a literal shopping list of good brands, and they are all going to sound different.

Heres some to get you started.

Focal
Monitor Audio
Dali
Paradigm
Revel

check these out, they have the design and looks of speakers far more expensive and they sound very good http://www.**********/products_product.php?section=speakers&product=10.1

I would recommend those and a good $1000-1500 subwoofer. Maybe an SVS PB12/2 Plus or if you want to save a little money, you can get an HSU VTF-3 MKIII HO turbo.

nice suggestion armystud, should do the trick. I really like the sound of the x-ls for the money, and haven't heard the rockets yet... but I assume they would be great especially considering they should fit into the budget and are beautiful imo. Maybe one of the 5.0 packages w/ the bigfoot center and an svs or hsu sub? add on some rs300's for rears? call them up if your interested, shawn was pretty helpful and honest to me with speaker recommendations, maybe he could aid you if you are willing to go the ID route.

Don't rule out the Klipsch reference line. I've got the RF-82 set and it just rocks my socks off.

Klipsch's play loud and clean, they do especially well for HT, however, despite the rockets much lower sensitivity, they aren't lacking at all for HT, and they have insanely good musical performance. Another VERY good option (and this does not mean I am trying to talk you down from the rockets in the least!) is the aperion intimus 6 series HT. I heard a setup with the aperion audio 633T's and the 634VAC with the 534-SS surrounds. In all honesty, it was better than my Infinity beta system that I came to love after a long audition period, even though the betas retail for about the same or higher. (you can get the betas for far less though, about half their retail price and then they are quite competitive again).

Pet Peeve:
First disregard the advice diven by people who don't know A WHOLE LOT MORE about your tastes , how you are going to be using them, your preferances (likes and dislikes) to date,
If I went in a store with such a question as yours I would hope to get at least a half dozen questions asked of me before a good salesman even began to try to narrow the field. If he jumped right in with a recomendation after hearing price and room size I'd laugh and walk out....feel free therefor to post again with a lot more particulars and disregard any of the people who have tossed out blind (lapdog for their own brand) suggestions.

check these out, they have the design and looks of speakers far more expensive and they sound very good
"Checking out", imo, involves comparing to other brands side-by-side, do you feel comfortable ordering in more than one set at a time to do adequate comparisons at home?

You have a decent budget and relative quality , depending on your personal taste , will very a great deal.
What have you already listened to? What did you like or dislike about them? Why didn't you buy them?
Avoid paying attention to knee-jerk suggestions from people who have no reason for suggesting other than they know the model of something that prices out in your range:
...and haven't heard the rockets yet... but I assume they would be great especially considering they should fit into the budget and are beautiful imo.
Don't ASSUME anything until you get to comparatively audition.
Don't rule out the Klipsch reference line. I've got the RF-82 set and it just rocks my socks off.
Another vote for "buy my brand!"

Ok. , let's ask some questions:
Music vs movies vs other uses? percentages...
Others in the home that will be using them, and their preferances?
Type of movies and music?
Prefered volume level?
Speaker experiances so far?
Where in the room will they go?
Is there a style or look that needs to be maintained to match to tastes or decor?
Do you move or rearrange rooms often?
Can you better describe (or provide layout of) the room?
Do you own the space? How were you hoping to wire?
Prefered bass output?
Close neighbors?
Other rooms in close proximity?
Room construction description ( floor and wall materials, etc)?

These are some questions that will spark other questions, but no one should be offering suggestions in this price range until they have read them.
I look forward to you responses.

Sorry if I seemed harsh...just a little pet peeve.

By all means, do your best in doing side-by-side comparisons. With the material you're likely to be listening to.
In the case of either Internet or local dealer brands, that means ordering speakers and spending a lot of up front $$$ to have them in your home and doing the listening tests. Then narrow down brands in your home. Then make a decision.

The best test is always in the environment you have to work with. And by that I mean the amp/pre-amp/receiver you'll be using as well as the "room".

It means doing a lot of testing in a short amount of time since you'll have at max, 30 days with most speaker house/ audio dealers to do the comparison. But it can be done.

In the end, I went the Onix Rocket / SVS-sub route in a 5.1 setup.
Couldn't afford to go 7.1 all at once. Hopefully soon though I'll have the other 2.
-t

Trying out speakers in your own home is the best way to decide what speakers you like.

Ascend 340SE all around (5 of them) or some pkg from the Rocket line are good choices. Both have in-home trials.

Also at that price range you could look at Tyler Acoustics "Freedom" line. Read up on the components they use.

http://www.tyleracoustics.com/

Also if you want even more bang for your buck check out this site:

http://www.htguide.com/forum/forumdisplay.php4?f=39

Good Luck

Regards,
Jose

Pet Peeve:
First disregard the advice diven by people who don't know A WHOLE LOT MORE about your tastes , how you are going to be using them, your preferances (likes and dislikes) to date,
If I went in a store with such a question as yours I would hope to get at least a half dozen questions asked of me before a good salesman even began to try to narrow the field. If he jumped right in with a recomendation after hearing price and room size I'd laugh and walk out....feel free therefor to post again with a lot more particulars and disregard any of the people who have tossed out blind (lapdog for their own brand) suggestions.


"Checking out", imo, involves comparing to other brands side-by-side, do you feel comfortable ordering in more than one set at a time to do adequate comparisons at home?

You have a decent budget and relative quality , depending on your personal taste , will very a great deal.
What have you already listened to? What did you like or dislike about them? Why didn't you buy them?
Avoid paying attention to knee-jerk suggestions from people who have no reason for suggesting other than they know the model of something that prices out in your range:

Don't ASSUME anything until you get to comparatively audition.

Another vote for "buy my brand!"

Ok. , let's ask some questions:
Music vs movies vs other uses? percentages...
Others in the home that will be using them, and their preferances?
Type of movies and music?
Prefered volume level?
Speaker experiances so far?
Where in the room will they go?
Is there a style or look that needs to be maintained to match to tastes or decor?
Do you move or rearrange rooms often?
Can you better describe (or provide layout of) the room?
Do you own the space? How were you hoping to wire?
Prefered bass output?
Close neighbors?
Other rooms in close proximity?
Room construction description ( floor and wall materials, etc)?

These are some questions that will spark other questions, but no one should be offering suggestions in this price range until they have read them.
I look forward to you responses.

Sorry if I seemed harsh...just a little pet peeve.

True, but I don't own the rockets or anything from av123 or aperion for that matter, so brand pushing isn't my intent. I have heard them and was quite impressed, I don't see whats wrong with offering a link to a great product, he may not know all the answers to the problems and questions you just listed, but a look at the rockets and their features will give him an idea of if they suite many of his needs. As for the sound itself, the main reason I linked to the speakers I did was because they have a 30 day in home audition period, after that, he can keep them or send them back.

True, but I don't own the rockets or anything from av123 or aperion for that matter, so brand pushing isn't my intent. I have heard them and was quite impressed, I don't see whats wrong with offering a link to a great product, he may not know all the answers to the problems and questions you just listed, but a look at the rockets and their features will give him an idea of if they suite many of his needs. As for the sound itself, the main reason I linked to the speakers I did was because they have a 30 day in home audition period, after that, he can keep them or send them back.

Don't worry about him Army,

He must be having a bad few days.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=822214&page=3

Instead of finding the negitives in everyones posts, how about concentrating on the positives.

I think def tech makes outstanding HT speakers--the wide dispersion bipolar design is perfect for ht--you could get any variety of setup options for that amount of money. Plus many of their designs have subs built in so you could initially spend all the money on speakers...

true, a lot of people love the def techs for HT, I imagine someone in your area has them, they'd be worth a listen. Personally I don't care for them much, but a lot of people really like 'em.

If those who haven't seen that new movie 300 - it is LOUD. I saw it in a large theater and I can't imagine any home system to match the sound there. It's making me rethink what a home theater system is. But I don't think that theater sound system I heard would be the best for music. For music, obviously your 2 front main speakers are of primary importance. But for HT, your center and sub are more important. For both it can be quite expensive. I think start out with your mains and then spend about $1000 on a sub. Dynamic bass is better than deep bass. Your center is important but you usually don't have many choices if you want to keep the sound the same. Just make sure the brand you get doesn't have a weak center. For rear surrounds, most mfg. now offer bipole and bookshelf. For HT bipoles work great, for better musical fidelity I like bookshelf surrounds.

For primarily HT, I think the PSB system is very good. For primarily music/stereo listening, I would look at Monitor Audio, it has a nice sounding midrange and tight bass but for HT it did not match the PSB system. I listened to them head-to-head in the same room. They each have a couple different sets of fronts speakers available depending on your needs.
Next to those two I would put the Wharfedale Diamond system - also a few different sizes to choose from.

Believe me, you can beat those IMAX sound systems a 100 times over with a really good home system.
PSB's are great though, I fell in love with the platinum speakers a while ago, there is an entire thread about it floating around here.

brand pushing isn't my intent.
Most people never claim that it is their intent, and yet the newbie still gets choices thrown at him before anyone has a clue as to what he needs.

the main reason I linked to the speakers I did was because they have a 30 day in home audition period, after that, he can keep them or send them back.
So do almost any speakers, but what he needs is to hear "a" vs "b" vs "c" at the same time so he can give some sense of what his tastes and likes are.

Instead of finding the negitives in everyones posts, how about concentrating on the positives.
O.k., I guess you missed the questions I asked that no one else felt the need to, or maybe that's not a positive move in the right direction?:
Ok. , let's ask some questions:
Music vs movies vs other uses? percentages...
Others in the home that will be using them, and their preferances?
Type of movies and music?
Prefered volume level?
Speaker experiances so far?
Where in the room will they go?
Is there a style or look that needs to be maintained to match to tastes or decor?
Do you move or rearrange rooms often?
Can you better describe (or provide layout of) the room?
Do you own the space? How were you hoping to wire?
Prefered bass output?
Close neighbors?
Other rooms in close proximity?
Room construction description ( floor and wall materials, etc)?

I totally agree with Schadenfreude. Much of this "best speaker" talk comes down to personal preference.

I own a definitive technologies HT system (BP7006 mains, CLR2300 center, BP2X surrounds, no dedicated sub). Unless you over-the-top-anal about your bass, the BPtower series are capable for outputting a whole lot of bass. I am in love with my set up for home theater. For 3500k, I don't think you can do any better than Def Tech - FOR HOME THEATER. They are an amazing bargain.

If you are looking for music, I believe you can find a better set up than the def techs. Just my personal opinion. Don't get me wrong, they are awesome speakers, but I have had the opportunity to audition several other speaker brands (B&W, all the way up to Wilson Audio) side-by-side, and you can hear a difference. Since 90% of my listening is for Home Theater, Def Tech can't be beat.

I Think The Issue Here Is That Were Not Helping Anyone. The Op Is Gone Now, And Our Peckers Are All Out Getting Ready For The Long Piss Contest. Why?

Why?

Because he hasn't answered the questions and given us more info so that real , well reasoned recommendations can be made?

In the meantime, it's a good exercise in reminding us that we need to find out more information before we rattle off a whole lot of random names, some of which may not , at all, fit his application.

Because he hasn't answered the questions and given us more info so that real , well reasoned recommendations can be made?

In the meantime, it's a good exercise in reminding us that we need to find out more information before we rattle off a whole lot of random names, some of which may not , at all, fit his application.


I'll give you that, good point on the 2nd part. As long as we can all agree that our advice is just that, we should all be in agreement that schad also has a good point in that our advice must be backed with all the info and facts of the op taken into consideration, otherwise, like my earlier post, we are just rattling off random products in a lot of cases that we haven't even had first hand experience with.

Jeff

My pet peeve is this as of late... having to say imo after everything that I have experienced first hand; not wanting to start any controversy over the subjective as its about as useful as spitting into the wind. Thinking about not giving speaker advice anymore even when I own the equipment because it is subjective and if I do own it and have had extensive experience with it, that doesn't make me an expert. Speaker advice is tricky, and requires a lot of info before you even get started to try and help someone, and even then, how reliable of info is it when the poster states room size, application, preference, waf, etc...... You still need to listen for yourself because there are so many possibilities out there and the speaker companies that exist do so because they make money. They make money because alot of people like their speakers, in turn, a lot of people prefer other speakers. Then again, its fun to talk about speaker preferences and the multitude of options out there.

Hi All,

Sorry I didn't check back quicker. I didn't expect so many responses so quickly.
You guys are great.

Ok,
Music vs movies vs other uses? percentages...
Movies 80 /Music 20

Others in the home that will be using them, and their preferances?
the kids dig toys and the wife would be happy with a radioshack setup

Type of movies and music?
music - rock from rush to chili peppers
movies - matrix, action stuff

Prefered volume level?
theater level

Speaker experiances so far?
been slumming till now

Where in the room will they go?
fl and fr sides of a 120" proj screen, not sure if they should go outside or inside of edge


Is there a style or look that needs to be maintained to match to tastes or decor?
i wear white after labor day

Do you move or rearrange rooms often?
not now, but will be building a new house to spec in a couple of months
(thanks alot hurricane wilma!)

Can you better describe (or provide layout of) the room?
front viewing wall - 25', screen off 4' off center to right due to a window placement
left wall 15' solid
right wall 15' , 8' of glass door
back wall 15' of glass door(10') and wall(5'), 10' opens out to kitchen


Do you own the space? How were you hoping to wire?
own, I can wire it it np

Prefered bass output?
im a bass player so YES

Close neighbors?
None i like

Other rooms in close proximity?
kitchen

Room construction description ( floor and wall materials, etc)?
see above



Ive heard the klipsch reference and synergy but wasn't sure how much difference was room vs speaker. I heard a BA center that seemed pretty nice(vr i believe).

seems impossible to remove variables across rooms or even with the same stores.

I think you are all right about testing in home to compare apples to apples. i agree with that but I do think i need to narrow it down to at most 3 setups for that to be feasible.
If the answers to those questions can help me get to 3 i'd really appreciate it.

Thanks all!

Well, if your local dealer will let you take the klipsch's home to try them out, but I wouldn't do that until you have heard some other setups. AV123 has their own forums, they have a whole mapping of all the owners in the US so you can see who nearby has the rockets. Looks like the rockets are backordered for a couple of weeks, if you aren't in a rush, they are still an option.

Theres quite a few more sites to check out http://axiomaudio.com/epic80_500main.html, these guys know how to make great speakers too. I have heard the M60's and their EP500 subwoofer, both were quite good, the sub was especially powerful. Also Their surrounds have won quite a bit of acclaim for their excellent dispersion. Many people will order their mains from somewhere else but still get axiom surrounds. Another option would be to take advantage of AV123's sales on their reference system. You could set up a custom package and still get the discount with some reference 1.8 mains, a reference 100 center and ref 1 surrounds for probably under $3,000.

Hi All,

Sorry I didn't check back quicker. I didn't expect so many responses so quickly.
You guys are great.

Ok,
Music vs movies vs other uses? percentages...
Movies 80 /Music 20

Others in the home that will be using them, and their preferances?
the kids dig toys and the wife would be happy with a radioshack setup

Type of movies and music?
music - rock from rush to chili peppers
movies - matrix, action stuff

Prefered volume level?
theater level

Speaker experiances so far?
been slumming till now

Where in the room will they go?
fl and fr sides of a 120" proj screen, not sure if they should go outside or inside of edge


Is there a style or look that needs to be maintained to match to tastes or decor?
i wear white after labor day

Do you move or rearrange rooms often?
not now, but will be building a new house to spec in a couple of months
(thanks alot hurricane wilma!)

Can you better describe (or provide layout of) the room?
front viewing wall - 25', screen off 4' off center to right due to a window placement
left wall 15' solid
right wall 15' , 8' of glass door
back wall 15' of glass door(10') and wall(5'), 10' opens out to kitchen


Do you own the space? How were you hoping to wire?
own, I can wire it it np

Prefered bass output?
im a bass player so YES

Close neighbors?
None i like

Other rooms in close proximity?
kitchen

Room construction description ( floor and wall materials, etc)?
see above



Ive heard the klipsch reference and synergy but wasn't sure how much difference was room vs speaker. I heard a BA center that seemed pretty nice(vr i believe).

seems impossible to remove variables across rooms or even with the same stores.

I think you are all right about testing in home to compare apples to apples. i agree with that but I do think i need to narrow it down to at most 3 setups for that to be feasible.
If the answers to those questions can help me get to 3 i'd really appreciate it.

Thanks all!

if you could have a dealer lone you some speakers for a day or 3, i would think this would be a great option.. listening to alot of speakers in your price range to determine what you like about a particular speaker and dislike is also great. Figure out what you subjectively like about different speakers by auditioning. This can help narrow down your choices. some don't like klipsch speakers noting that they can sound overly bright, but some love them (they use a horn style tweeter). I would start off auditioning speakers at the local shops, hopefully in a designated showroom where you can compare brands head to head. I've owned or own paradigm, kef, klipsch, polk, b&w, onix (ID brand website is **********), linn, dcm time windows, and a few others. I find that I like certain speakers for different occasions. For instance, I have a main 2 channel rig consisting of a carver 2 channel power amp and sonic holigraphy pre that I enjoy listening to an old pair of linn nexus large standmount speakers on granite stands moreso than any other speakers that have been in my home. I feel that they are the most neutral sounding speaker that I own. I also like the kef q70's that I previously owned as they were very strong imaging speakers. These are older but the point is, I found that I like b&w speakers for all around sound with HT and Music applications 50/50, and I use this setup in my living room ht. For 80/20 HT, I would shortlist paradigm, b&w, kef, and klipsch as I believe they all have products in your price range and are all well made speakers that sound quite different imo. If you could manage to audition these and more at a local dealer, I think you may find the sound that you like. There are many more brands out there, I just haven't owned them and wouldn't recommend something I didn't own. I think maybe deftechs, paradigm, or even an ID dealer such as av123's rockets could be right up your ally. With the rockets you could just purchase them and pay return shipping if you don't like them. This way you could get to hear them in your actual living quarters before making a final decision. Maybe your dealer like I said could loan you your favorite out of the lot in the showroom to audition at home as well.
audition, audition, audition. you will thank yourself for it in the end me thinks...

I continue to believe that def techs wold be an ideal match for your needs but also agree with what others have said. given the price range you could also consider the focal chorus series--you may want to visit a local delaer, magolia (in some best buy stores) and tweeter if you have on enearby--not because I like any of those retailers in particular but because they have some good options in your price range and a reasonable variety between them.

You should look at these: b&w, Rotel, lex, revel, def tech, mac, denon, integra, CRESTRON, Sony, Runco, Sharp, Mits, Hitatchi, Era


And if you really want something special, look at this: sunfire, sound advantage, MIT, speakercraft, Yamaha, Monster, SHARP. :)

Thats the stuff schadenfreude likes.

For theater level volumes and rock music, I'd suggest this system (http://www.klipsch.com/products/details/rf-82-home-theater-system.aspx), except for the subwoofer. Instead, get a HSU VTF3 HO with Turbo for about the same price. Puts you right at $3500 MSRP for 5.1, so you shouldn't have a problem getting a 7.1 setup after discount. They'll be one of the very few sets of speakers able to reach theater level volumes and still stay composed with a receiver like the 2700. If you want to step up to seperates, there are more choices, but now you're spending close to $3000 on power and processing, alone.

If you can stretch your budget at all, and you can get a good deal, you might be able to pull off the RF-63 system for just a few hundred more. The difference is pretty big for the price difference (especially for music).

we've already had the klipsch recommendations, he would prolly want to consider an outboard amp for his mains with whatever system he gets, the difference is remarkable.

we've already had the klipsch recommendations, he would prolly want to consider an outboard amp for his mains with whatever system he gets, the difference is remarkable.

Really? I don't think he has an extra $1500 to spend on power. And if he used part of his speaker budget, his speaker selection would definately be straining at theater levels. There just aren't many choices at all within his budget, for the SPL level he's looking for.

I need a speaker system to hook up to a yamaha RXV2700.

Really? I don't think he has an extra $1500 to spend on power. And if he used part of his speaker budget, his speaker selection would definately be straining at theater levels. There just aren't many choices at all within his budget, for the SPL level he's looking for.

while I agree $1500 for power could cut into his speaker budget so drastically that could leave the klipsch looking like a sweet bargain not needing additional amplification down the road. I don't think I would purchase klipsch speakers just because they mate well with a receiver however, I would audition the speakers and pick the best you can get for the money you are willing to spend. This is a non-compromise, you must get what your heart desires within reason and budget, or you will grow to regret it. You can get away with using the 2700 only with w/e speakers you buy unless they are rediculously hard to drive, and save up for a power amp. This way you get what you want. And I think you could also do better than $1500 for a very capable 5 channel amp if you shop around.

Really? I don't think he has an extra $1500 to spend on power. And if he used part of his speaker budget, his speaker selection would definately be straining at theater levels. There just aren't many choices at all within his budget, for the SPL level he's looking for.


I personally don't know what he has to spend on an amp as I would not personally choose to speak for someone else on the forum (unless it was another of my personalities, which does happen occasionally :eek: ).

It does seem like sensical advice to let him know if he doesn't already, though that an outboard amp is often helpful in improving sound quality.

The klipsch option is a good idea in that it may get him the spls with less power if he actually likes their sound. alternately if quality is more important than quantity then you may want to consider something like paradigm as well--consistently well rated--perhaps some of the highest sound quality for the bucks. in last month's stereophile, robert deutch recommended highly a set of silverline (prelude) speakers for a price that could have you set up for about the price you were looking to spend. The B&W 603's are great too (stereophile budget product of the year)!

sometimes it is ok to start out with a receiver and work your way up from there--that is how many of us started out, even if it doesn't give you the "absolute sound" you can get a system that sounds pretty satisfying--better to get a great speaker setup anticipating getting a better amp in the future than to compromise then have to replace the speakers in a year when you want to upgrade the amp. there are some big sound differences between the speakers recommended by people here. Some degree of listening somewhere wold probably be helpful such that the op can all work on narrowing down the a-list...

Hmm, I don't recall telling him to spend $1500 on an outboard amp, that figure makes no sense. I was thinking more around $300 for his amp, and he could even purchase that later. For speakers budgets even far less than his, the benefits of an outboard amp to power your mains are quite practical. The receiver doesn't get nearly as strained, allowing much greater dynamics and clipping headroom.
I was thinking of something more along the lines of a pro audio amp, or if doesn't want to do that route for whatever reason, a simple Harman Kardon 3480 does wonders. It is only spec'd at 120watts per channel but the specs are no where near as bloated as pretty much any receiver. Even if he got an extremely powerful receiver, like a denon 4806, an outboard amp would still help to dramatically ease up the load on it. Tower speakers can handle lots of power, most receivers under $1000 will come no where near 100 watts per channel all channels driven, despite their highly glossed over specs.

Given the taste for Bass heavy media (rock music and action films) and a larger room , high listening volumes, low power amp/receiver... I would make a case for matched bookshelves (x5) that are an easier load (8 ohm, 90+db efficiancy) crossed over at 80hz , give-or-take, and many brands have already been mentioned ...at @ $300 per speaker and @ $1,000 for the sub (HSU or SVS?), you have many choices...if the bookshelf speakers you prefer come in a little under , consider two, somewhat lower power, subs .....
Now you have to get out and listen.

On paper and without regard to personal preference this http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/ultimate1.html seems to meet the OP's needs.

Just an idea, I have no dog in this fight.

Since people just aren't seeing the reality of his situation, I'll do the math for you:

Given the size of his room, I'd say he's around 3 meters from his speakers. I wouldn't trust the Yamaha much over 128 watts per channel of clean and honest power (probably closer to 100, but I'm feeling generous). That gives you about 7x3 dbs of gain. Subtract 3x for 3 meters, and you're at 4x3 dbs of gain. You now need a speaker with an honest 93 dbs of sensitivity if you want reference levels - and that's pushing the receiver to it's limit. Generally you need to take a speaker's rated sensitivity and knock 2 db off to get it's real sensitivity - see Stereophile review measurements.

So, unless he wants to go to seperate amplification, he'll need *at a minimum* speakers with a sensitivity of at least 95 dbs. I'm not aware of many speakers that can do this...

On to separate amplification, let's say we are willing to look at speakers with sensitivities of 89 db (to open up the playing field pretty wide). That means we need around 6 db more of gain, or 512 watts per channel. You're looking at $1500 minimum just for the front three channels - and that's pro amps. But the real catch is finding a speaker that will take even close to that much power before blowing its drivers (in his price range).

Lets say we're willing to fudge a little bit, and will accept 3 db under reference levels. You're still looking at a clean 256 watts per channel which costs about $800 for the front 3, or $1500 for all 7 channels (pro amps, since they're cheap). If you want to use consumer audio gear, you're looking at around $2000-$3000, at a minimum. Not only that, but you also need to find a speaker that can handle this much power without sounding strained - definately not easy in his price range.

Keep in mind that we haven't even looked at seeing if he has enough power to the outlets that will be powering this equipment. We may have to factor in hiring an electrician to add another 20A circuit.

I just don't see many options for what he's looking for. Unless the OP can weigh in on if he has the extra money to throw at separate amplification, Klipsch is the only one I can think of, without doing some heavy searching.

I'd probably tell the OP that if he doesn't like Klipsch, return his receiver, get a Denon 2807 for $1000, get a 5.1 speaker setup, look for speakers that he likes with 90 db of rated sensitivity and save up a bit more money (~$400) for seperate amplification... even then he may fall short of good quality speakers that will hit reference levels... so maybe he should just settle for 99 db peaks, or 6 db under reference levels. That would make it a lot easier.

FYI: I had the same requirements as the OP, except I was open to separate amplification. Even then, I had to hire Rick Craig of Selah Audio to develop a kit in my price range that wouldn't fall short at reference levels, and build them myself - and, considering 7.1, I'd come in just under the OP's price range, ignoring the cost of labor. Klipsch was about the only brand that would have worked, but I wanted something a bit better and didn't mind DIY.

Don't worry about him Army,

He must be having a bad few days.Well, if you can see past that and hear what he's saying ... he's absolutely right. It's hard to believe that people toss off "advice" around here without any idea of where the person asking is coming from. Better to encourage posters to provide some info.

There really needs to be a sticky in this forum, saying that if you're going to ask for suggestions, all you're going to get is well-intentioned but useless chatter unless you give some info about

- how you and others will use the system
- your room setup and layout (dedicated or multipurpose, especially)

Anything beyond that will help a lot, too.

Of course, well intentioned but useless chatter is what AVS specializes in, so if that's what people want, they've come to the right place.

Anyway, glad to see the OP providing some info, should help get some good advice.

Since people just aren't seeing the reality of his situation, I'll do the math for you:

Given the size of his room, I'd say he's around 3 meters from his speakers. I wouldn't trust the Yamaha much over 128 watts per channel of clean and honest power (probably closer to 100, but I'm feeling generous). That gives you about 7x3 dbs of gain. Subtract 3x for 3 meters, and you're at 4x3 dbs of gain. You now need a speaker with an honest 93 dbs of sensitivity if you want reference levels - and that's pushing the receiver to it's limit. Generally you need to take a speaker's rated sensitivity and knock 2 db off to get it's real sensitivity - see Stereophile review measurements.

So, unless he wants to go to seperate amplification, he'll need *at a minimum* speakers with a sensitivity of at least 95 dbs. I'm not aware of many speakers that can do this...

On to separate amplification, let's say we are willing to look at speakers with sensitivities of 89 db (to open up the playing field pretty wide). That means we need around 6 db more of gain, or 512 watts per channel. You're looking at $1500 minimum just for the front three channels - and that's pro amps. But the real catch is finding a speaker that will take even close to that much power before blowing its drivers (in his price range).

Lets say we're willing to fudge a little bit, and will accept 3 db under reference levels. You're still looking at a clean 256 watts per channel which costs about $800 for the front 3, or $1500 for all 7 channels (pro amps, since they're cheap). If you want to use consumer audio gear, you're looking at around $2000-$3000, at a minimum. Not only that, but you also need to find a speaker that can handle this much power without sounding strained - definately not easy in his price range.

Keep in mind that we haven't even looked at seeing if he has enough power to the outlets that will be powering this equipment. We may have to factor in hiring an electrician to add another 20A circuit.

I just don't see many options for what he's looking for. Unless the OP can weigh in on if he has the extra money to throw at separate amplification, Klipsch is the only one I can think of, without doing some heavy searching.

I'd probably tell the OP that if he doesn't like Klipsch, return his receiver, get a Denon 2807 for $1000, get a 5.1 speaker setup, look for speakers that he likes with 90 db of rated sensitivity and save up a bit more money (~$400) for seperate amplification... even then he may fall short of good quality speakers that will hit reference levels... so maybe he should just settle for 99 db peaks, or 6 db under reference levels. That would make it a lot easier.

FYI: I had the same requirements as the OP, except I was open to separate amplification. Even then, I had to hire Rick Craig of Selah Audio to develop a kit in my price range that wouldn't fall short at reference levels, and build them myself - and, considering 7.1, I'd come in just under the OP's price range, ignoring the cost of labor. Klipsch was about the only brand that would have worked, but I wanted something a bit better and didn't mind DIY.

You seem to mean well, but I don't have the foggiest idea where you are getting your numbers from. If he wants to power his front THREE channels, (I recommend front two) with 500 watts of power each, which is an unnecessary amount of headroom becuase his towers or god forbid bookshelves will be suffering from compression LONG before that, then he can expect to get maybe a crown xls 802D and 402D in bridged for center, that would cost about $900. If he wanted to power with home audio amps, he could get the audiosource amp300 and run them bridged mode, that would cost him about $1200. However, even with just one decent outboard amp, he would experience very tangible benefits.

You seem to mean well, but I don't have the foggiest idea where you are getting your numbers from.

I'll assume you mean the prices. The others are just some math and a simple fact about SPL (3 db = 1 meter = 2x power). The prices were based off of recollections I had when I was looking into hitting reference levels with market speakers.

If he wants to power his front THREE channels, (I recommend front two) with 500 watts of power each, which is an unnecessary amount of headroom becuase his towers or god forbid bookshelves will be suffering from compression LONG before that, then he can expect to get maybe a crown xls 802D and 402D in bridged for center, that would cost about $900.

He won't be able to go bridged. Any speaker that'll take that much power is going to need an amp that is stable into 4 ohms, due to the number of drivers (unless it's a line array - out of the price range). He'll need two X-LS 802Ds ($1200). I'm off by $300, but I suppose that's easily taken up by the power needed for the surrounds. Regardless, I can't think of any speaker in his price range that will take 500 watts. Though it'd be fun to try! "Boom-sizzle" will take on a whole new meaning. :D

However, even with just one decent outboard amp, he would experience very tangible benefits.

Sure, tangible benefits, but he won't reach the levels he was looking for.

[QUOTE=Lindahl]Since people just aren't seeing the reality of his situation, I'll do the math for you:

Given the size of his room, I'd say he's around 3 meters from his speakers. I wouldn't trust the Yamaha much over 128 watts per channel of clean and honest power (probably closer to 100, but I'm feeling generous). That gives you about 7x3 dbs of gain. Subtract 3x for 3 meters, and you're at 4x3 dbs of gain. You now need a speaker with an honest 93 dbs of sensitivity if you want reference levels - and that's pushing the receiver to it's limit. Generally you need to take a speaker's rated sensitivity and knock 2 db off to get it's real sensitivity - see Stereophile review measurements.
QUOTE]

so for a 90db speaker-ONE of them, that means 90 db at 1 meter with one watt of power applied. if we assume he is 3 m away, we have to subtract the meter already inherent in the measurement, leaving 2m. at 2m from the speaker, by your 3db/meter specification, we need 2 watts of power (3db up=2x) to maintain the 90db and at 3m we need 4 watts. Keep in mind thx reference is 85db (if I remember correctly). also speaker volumes have a summation effect--2 speakers at 90db are louder than one and 5 or 7 are definitely louder than 2. I am not sure where your figures are coming from but that's not so important....

I think what people are trying to say is that even if you couldn't make thx reference per se, that the specific numbers are easy to obsess about but what works out in mathematical theory doesn't always work for a whole system in a room.

I'll assume you mean the prices. The others are just some math and a simple fact about SPL (3 db = 1 meter = 2x power). The prices were based off of recollections I had when I was looking into hitting reference levels with market speakers.



He won't be able to go bridged. Any speaker that'll take that much power is going to need an amp that is stable into 4 ohms, due to the number of drivers (unless it's a line array - out of the price range). He'll need two X-LS 802Ds ($1200). I'm off by $300, but I suppose that's easily taken up by the power needed for the surrounds. Regardless, I can't think of any speaker in his price range that will take 500 watts. Though it'd be fun to try! "Boom-sizzle" will take on a whole new meaning. :D



Sure, tangible benefits, but he won't reach the levels he was looking for.

I wasn't questioning your math, just the prices, also, the crowns are stable into 4ohms. Furthermore, you just proved my point, he doesn't need 500watts, he needs a solid 100-150, not the 55-80 from his receiver. Also, my point wasn't so much that he would be able to get a 3dB overall gain from turning his volume up higher, it was that he would have improved headroom and dynamics within the listening levels he could experiance with his avr. The benefits of an outboard amp, even one of similar spec just to help with the load are quite real.
AVR's struggle to drive all seven channels, relieving them of two of the front three really helps as they pretty much all share transformers, caps and voltage rails.

Actually, movie reference levels have 105 db peaks, the average level is 85 db (for each channel). Anything less is dynamic compression and not theater levels - a good theater, at least.

100-150 watts won't do it. 300 watts per channel spec'd on the amp is a good place to start. I agree, an outboard amp will help, no matter what. But he should aim for 300 watts per channel, spec'd in order to reach reference level peaks without dynamic compression. Like I said before, he also has to find a speaker that won't sound strained at those levels, which isn't an easy task in his price range (I had to go custom DIY, in order to do it). Any way you cut it, going with Klipsch is a quick, easy way to get true dynamics without breaking the bank. I've been down this road, myself, even though I took on some headaches to get it done without Klipsch. To get an idea of what one has to do in a larger space, look what Art Sonnenburg is using for his mains. He's using 12" MTMs with tweeters in a waveguide, each taking 1000 watts. Most people underestimate the effort required to avoid dynamic compression at reference levels. And once you've heard a system that can do this, unstrained, it's hard to go back. ;)

I'd be curious to see real world measurements for speakers (impedance and sensitivity) in rooms of various sizes, when 80hz crossovers are applied, just to see what effect this would hgave on their numbers.