My Theater will be built as a partial DIY, partial hired help. I am currently in-progress building a new home. I will do my best to keep this initial post up to date with my design/implementation of the room.

I am designing the room in Google Sketchup (http://sketchup.google.com/download/). I also included something that some may find this useful as well, it is a Google sketch of a "THX Frustum" - put the center in

your optimal position, and it will show you where your screen should go, how big it should be, and where you should put your speakers. Note that this was designed per the documentation on the THX site, so it uses the

combined rear channel. You can find this in the sketchup model linked below. It is on the "THX Guides" layer.

Screenshots
Below are some screenshots taken from my Sketchup Model v. 2.1.0 (http://www.filedropper.com/htmodel210).

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4109/5440543438_3db137ab1c.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5092/5439938099_117ac106ea.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5017/5440542380_4cfc3ea5b0.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5299/5440541788_ebcfe8463b.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5016/5439936291_716676954e.jpg

Design Information
This section will detail the design decisions I made for my home theater. I figured it may be helpful to others, and may even draw in some helpful comments before I get to actual implementation.

My current design is changing. I have been trying to come up with a theme for the theater and nothing really is cementing. So, I think I'll just steal from Ruben. His looks great, we'll see what I can do with my budget,

which is clearly much less than his. Hopefully I won't be ripping things out quite as often, so maybe that will help. Once my sketchup re-design is done, I will post screenshots and an updated model here.

General Construction
The HT will be built on a concrete slab. The outer room dimensions are 27' x 16' 3". The bottom of the "upper" ceiling (room-in-room construction is planned) will be 11' 6" high.

Vendors:

Outwater Plastics (http://www.outwater.com/) - Odds and ends plastics manufacturer


Floors

Suggested Vendors:

Fabricmate (http://www.fabricmate.com/) (Related post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6198844#post6198844) by Sandman) provides GoM (Gilford of Maine) (http://www.gilford.com/)

fabrics
Masland Carpets (http://www.maslandcarpets.com/)


Walls
For walls, I decided to go with a double 4" wall separated by a 1.5" air gap. I would have preferred a 2" air gap as is recommended by the Green Glue literature, but for space reasons, that extra inch matters. On the HT

side of the inner wall I will place a 1/2" layer of Oriented Strand Board (OSB) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriented_strand_board), Green Glue (GG) (http://www.greengluecompany.com), and then a 5/8"

layer of Gypsum Wall Board (GWB) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallboard). Most of the outer wall will be brick, but for those areas that will have GWB on the "outside" with respect to the home theater, 5/8" GWB

+ GG + 5/8" GWB will be used. In all cases, double GWB will use non-overlapping seams and have a layer of green glue using one tube of green glue for every 4'x4' section of wall. All walls will be insulated with standard

el-cheapo pink insulation. During construction, the inner walls will be tied the the external walls directly. Then diagonal 10' metal straps will be installed on the interior of the room at the corners and a 18" strip of

OSB will be installed along each wall on the top of the inner ceiling joists. The external wall tie-ins will then be removed and the inner wall will be tested. The room should be fairly stable at this point, when the OSB

goes up on the interior it should be more than rigid enough.

Ceiling
There will be double ceilings just as with the walls - a complete room in room construction. The bottom of the upper ceiling will be 11'6" above the slab and this ceiling will be placed on top of the outer walls. There

will then be a large (~5") air gap and then another framed in ceiling will be placed on top of the inner walls. No sound protection measures will be taken on top of the upper ceiling. The bottom of the lower ceiling will

have OSB + GG + GWB, non overlapping seams, and 1 tube of green glue for every 4'x4' section of the second layer of GWB.

HVAC
I will be using dedicated HVAC for the theater. There will be 2 high vents in the front of the room, 2 high returns in the rear of the room. There will also be a separate zone for the equipment closet with a vent at the

top and a return at the bottom. My father-in-law is doing the HVAC and he has a system picked out. Hopefully we will be keeping the equipment closet around 60 degrees, the rest of the room 65-70 (I like it cold).


Recommendation (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16857696#post16857696) by Dennis Erskine


Stage
There will be a stage constructed in the front of the room that will house the front left and right mains as well as the subs that are built into the mains. It will be constructed using the following techniques:

Acoustik Mat placed directly on slab
Stage built directly on Acoustik Mat with at least 1/4" gap between all walls
Sand fill entire stage

This is based on information from: here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14268609) and here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=823565)

Electrical


Carlon Adjustable Zip Boxes (http://www.carlon.com/Product_AdjustableZipBoxes.html) (Related post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6131926&posted=1#post6131926) by chinadog)


Acoustic Treatment
Really just getting started thinking about this, so this list will be evolving

Corner Bass Traps (SandmanX installed (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6918350#post6918350))
Panel Install (SandmanX advice - MDF vs. Particle Board (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7021482#post7021482))


Suggested Vendors:

Sensible Sound Solutions (http://sensiblesoundsolutions.com/index.php?cPath=22&osCsid=ccbee61cff1051fe3ec6567c18f1bd8b) (Related post

(http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7018231#post7018231) by SandmanX) provides 2" Cotton


A/V Closet
There will be an A/V closet built onto the room. This closet will be framed with a staggered stud 6" wall (2x4 studs). Standard pink insulation will be weaved through the studs. The inside of the closet will have the

same double 5/8" drywall as the rest of the HT. An equipment rack will be placed in this closet. I will be using the Middle Atlantic AXS-40-26 (http://www.middleatlantic.com/enclosure/roll/axsm.htm). I chose

this unit over the rotating version to more easily allow access into the A/V closet behind this unit, the total closet depth will be 3', and I prefer to maintain the ability to walk into it. The 40 height unit is the

largest, according to Middle Atlantic, that will fit in a standard 80" height doorway since the rack must be elevated by about 3".

Rack Equipment
Middle Atlantic AXS-40-26-GG (http://www.middleatlantic.com/enclosure/roll/axsm.htm) (rack)
TRACK50 (http://www.middleatlantic.com/enclosure/roll/axsm.htm) (pull-out tracks)
TS310 (http://www.middleatlantic.com/enclosure/roll/axsm.htm) (3.5" - 10" telescoping support for TRACK50)
AXS-WT50 (http://www.middleatlantic.com/enclosure/roll/axsm.htm) (Cable management tray for TRACK50)

Screen
I am currently working on screen design. I would like to use a SMX (http://www.smxscreen.com) screen, but it looks like it is out of my budget. I have inquired about getting just the raw screen material, but have

not yet heard back.

Sheerweave 4000 (http://wholesalescreensandglass.com/SheerWeave%204000_4100_4400.asp)
Fidelio Black Velvet (http://www.bymichelle.com/fidelio.html) for masking (see this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7836897#post7836897) post by SandmanX)


Lighting
The current plan is to just use 4 wall sconces. I may add some floor/stage lighting as well, still debating.

As for sconces, I'm still searching. Our local theater has a light I really enjoy. I found this (http://www.eurostylelighting.com/EUH0743.htm) online, it is the closest I have found so far, but I don't want to

spend >$400 per sconce.


Step Lighting (http://www.prolighting.com/steplighting.html) (Related post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6804518#post6804518) by chinadog)


To-Do List

Review SandmanX thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6105356#post6105356) - Done
Review chinadog thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5760667#post5760667) - 1/138
Review mbgonzomd thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8352504#post8352504)
Review Cathan thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=850462)
Review BIGmouthinDC thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7760106#post7760106)
Review shawnwalters thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1103417)
Review CJO thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1043747) - done
Discuss HVAC solutions with contractor - In Progress
Design theater in SketchUp - In Progress
Concrete Floor - done
Framing - Outer Room - done
Framing - Inner Room - done
External Decking / Brick - done
Door - Entrance - done
Wall Insulation - done
Electrical Rough-In
Wall Layer 1 - OSB
Attic Insulation
Attic Decking
HVAC
Wall Layer 2 - 5/8" GWB
A/V Closet OSB
A/V Closet GWB
Paint
Framing - Riser
Electrical Rough-In - Riser
Decking - Riser
Riser Component - Stair
Framing - Soffit
Decking - Soffit
Framing - Stage
Fill - Stage
Decking - Stage
Framing - Screen Wall
Framing - Columns
A/V Wiring
Sound Treatment
Equipment - Screen
Carpet
Equipment - Speakers
Equipment - Projector
Fabric Panels
Electrical - Final
Equipment - Rack
Equipment - Seating
Final Component Install / Calibration
Enjoy HT!


Acknowledgements
I'd like to thank, first off, the general forum community. Without AVS, I wouldn't even know what I wanted, much less have any hope of attaining a theatre of the quality that I hope to build. But I would like to also

thank, in particular, several users who have posted great threads that I have directly used for this project. Note that this list will grow as I go through this project, so don't be offended if you're not here yet.

CJO: Great OP (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1043747) for consolidating information
Sandman: Must read thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=574704)
chinadog: Another great indexed thread (url=http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5760667#post5760667)

***********************************************
* This is the old first post of this thread, for archive purposes *
***********************************************

***********************************************
** Old First Post Below This Line **********************
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Well, it's been a while. I started thinking of doing my own home theater a few years ago, got an enthusiastic start, and then got smacked down with life. 2 kids later (please don't read that as a complaint), I'm about ready to start. Here's the old thread:

Old HT Thread (http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=222653)

Sorry, none of the links in that thread will work because my file server had a fatal crash a while back.

A few things have changed. It's no longer in the basement, but rather we'll be adding a ground level (flexible) exterior room. It's pretty much all up in the air. And yes, I've already got an e-mail out to Dennis.

I guess my first decision is, should it be a rectangle? I've found some suggestions that non-rectangle rooms have better sound, but then most of the gallery pictures I see seem to be rectangles.

Links
I'm using 3D Studio Max to visualize the project. These links are to screenshots/movies that will be kept updated. They will always point to the latest version of the renders.

Full Movie (~20 MB) (http://midnite.dyndns.org/images/HomeTheater/HomeTheater.wmv)

***********************
* Original second post below *
***********************

Looks like budget might be tight on this. We've hired an architect to design our house. I keep waffling between adding Dennis Erskine (sp?) as a second architect to just do the home theater. In the end, doesn't it all just come down to hard-budget decisions. I'd love to have Dennis design it, but that's another $5k minimum, and if the room gets too far up in cost, it's a no-go.

On another note, I'm formally starting the seating search. I plan on doing seating for 8. There will be 3 tiers (2 raised tiers and ground level), and the rear tier will be full of exercise equipment.

So far, my list consists of:

Berkline
Barcalounger (local dealer)
Palliser (current favorite)
Encore
Bass (culled for price)
Lovan (culled for options)
Coaster

I'm just starting this, so please free to add to my list, I'd like to review all competent options. My budget is $400-$1000 / chair, although this is one of the places I plan to save money, rather than go hog-wild.

I'd say hiring Dennis would be money well spent, I was following your plan but you completely lost me with the excercise equipment. Too me dedicated theater and Excercise equipment don't mix. LOL
I went with actual Movie seating, partly for space and partly because I want a real movie theater feel, the only non Movie seating I would have considered is Cinelounger and they are insanely expensive, I am real happy with the Cinema Rockers I ended up with.

I think rectangular is the way to go for the best result.
Keep us posted what you decide to do.

Well, I work out about 4 times a week for about an hour. My wife does the same (or rather will as soon as we build a house and get her elliptical walker out of storage). The house will be about 4000 square feet, so there should be plenty of room to put some equipment somewhere. When we sat down and started talking about where to put it, the HT just made the most sense. It's the most entertaining room in our house, and when you're spending an hour on an elliptical walker, entertainment is paramount (yes, that's a pun - she usually ends up watching Voyager while on the walker).

I'm not too concerned with a movie theater feel, or even the aesthetics to a huge degree. I'm a functionality kind of guy. I do want it to be comfortable. We're not dead set on the exercise equipment in the room, but I'm definitely leaning that way. I mean, it will be behind all the seating, so it's not like it will actually take away from the movie viewing experience. There could be some sonic issues I guess, so that might be a decision point.

I'm not too concerned with a movie theater feel, or even the aesthetics to a huge degree. I'm a functionality kind of guy.

If you are a functionality kind of guy then the movie theater should be dedicated to it's function, not something else as well. Movies and TV are very specific things that require very specific environments. IMHO, exersice equipment, foosball tables, pool tables, snack bars, and the like do fine mixed with each other but not with a home theater. I can say that because we just took our home from 2300 sq feet to 3600 in the last year. This included both a HT AND a combo room with a Precor strength trainer, a Precor elliptical, a pool table, and a plasma. A plasma or LCD are better for that environment and are dirt cheap these days. A much better fit than putting stuff in a HT that will interfere with TV and movies. With 4000 sq feet you should have plenty of room for this.

Just my .02

Galaxy Theater (http://nightskypictures.com/theater/theater.htm)

Well, I could understand that if the equipment would actually interfere with the A/V experience. I just don't see how it will.

One thing I have thought of doing to mitigate the effect is to put up a movable wall / curtain that can hide the equipment. This might make things difficult for the rear channel though, but not impossible.

Well, I could understand that if the equipment would actually interfere with the A/V experience. I just don't see how it will.

Precor makes probably the quietest elliptical out there and I sure as heck would NOT want my Precor in a theater. In fact, what you are describing is not really a "Dedicated Theater" (this thread). It is more of a "General Home Theater & Media/Game Room" (another thread).

Do as you wish, but if you do it that way I will bet you wish you had not ....

Both the equipment and wall or curtain to hide it could do a number on your acoustics but if that does not bother you then go for it I guess. Are you doing 5.1 or 7.1? Back speakers would not be an issue with 5.1.
Be interesting to see what Dennis thinks of the equipment in the theater idea. I will be watching this thread for sure.

I understand your point CCDAstro, but it's not like the equipment will be in use while I'm trying to have friends over to get a good movie experience. It seems to me it would enhance the experience while working out without detracting while not working out. Maybe I'm wrong, I'll give it some more thought. We're still a good 3 months from construction in a best case scenario. Even if I went this route and hated it, I could just replace the back row with seats, so it's not like it's a huge risk.

I'm currently planning on 7.1, which is why a curtain would be difficult. I think a movable wall could probably be fitted with some sort of sonic panels, but that would be a more expensive option.

Well, I could understand that if the equipment would actually interfere with the A/V experience. I just don't see how it will.

One thing I have thought of doing to mitigate the effect is to put up a movable wall / curtain that can hide the equipment. This might make things difficult for the rear channel though, but not impossible.

I've actually thought about adding a curtain to block off the back of my theater area. I know this goes against what everyone is saying here, but I have my treadmill at the back of my theater/rec area and it's fine. Granted I probably don't use it 4 times a week, but it's nice to have the open area.

IMHO, if you want the movie theater feel, don't combine rooms, but if you're looking for functionality and looking to get the most use out of your space based on what you like to do, then leave it an open design.

I left mine open because there is no way, with my family, that I could fit everyone into a dedicated theater......so like you, I was looking for functionality.

CCDAstro - could you PM me? I wanted to pick your brain about ICF, but figured it wasn't very applicable to this thread (and you appear to have public PMs turned off).

CCDAstro - could you PM me? I wanted to pick your brain about ICF, but figured it wasn't very applicable to this thread (and you appear to have public PMs turned off).


Here is a contact page (http://nightskypictures.com/mail.htm) with my email address. I would be happy to tell you whatever I can about ICF. Overall it is a great material but does have some drawbacks.

I think the exercise equipment is fine, and had the same thought as McCall on the curtain, but she beat me to it (I think she lives on here).

I say damn the bulb budget! When it's 100+ degrees in Huntsville, AL and you're in your air conditioned room, imersed a nice scene of the Rockies in spring or winter at 130", doing your hour workout, it'll be much more motivating and enjoyable.

Just say the 3rd row is reserved for the butt kickers, I know they'd kick my butt :D

Good luck
Chip

Funny you should say that, I just told my husband last night that I DO live on here.

Funny you should say that, I just told my husband last night that I DO live on here.
Good thing too, somebody has to keep all us men out of the gutter :p

Chip

I guess another decision point will be speakers. I currently have a NHT VT/VS-2.4 6.1 system. It sounds good enough for me in my living room (just 5.1, have the 6th for backup in case of failure). If I can pick up another VS-2.4, this could be a 7.1 system. I'm just not sure if it would be buff enough for a home theater. Right now I'm thinking the room will be around 25x20, but that's still up for debate.

NHT VT-2.4 Towers (1 pair) (http://nhthifi.com/2006/products/vintage/vt-24.html)
NHT Vs-2.4 Center/Surrounds (2 pair) (http://nhthifi.com/2006/products/vintage/vs-24.html)

I know from preliminary talks with Dennis that the room design will be a bigger factor than speakers. I just don't know if these are buff enough for a home theater or not.

If I replace them, I'm looking at the Onix Rocket line, but admittedly haven't done any serious speaker research lately.

Id opt for a separate space for the workout stuff.

With the prices of plasmas and lcd's you could easily get a decent workout area system for around 3000. 1500 for a lcd or plasma 42-50 inch, 500 for small 5 speaker system from polk or Klipsch and 500 for subwoofer, 500 for reasonable surround sound receiver and 100 for dvd player. Just run a line for cable and your all set.
Take this money out of the theater bugdet and youd be able to make a better more functional theater only theater. You could have more seating, better surround speaker options, more dramatic entry, better interior, etc... By combining, youd be at the mercy of these items in the future. Plus you get a place for your kids/spouse to hang out in the workout theater if you add a chair or couch in there, depending on size of room.

Here are my thoughts. In short, I wouldn't put the fitness equipment in the "theater".

I'm not sure what projector/screen size you are going with, but if you are using a large screen, ambient light may be an issue. Who want's to workout in the dark!

Also, what if someone wants to workout, while another wants to enjoy the theater? Or what if in the future you decide to get some other fitness equipment and it all does not quite fit?

So I say go with the biggest screen to immerse yourself in the theater experience, and if you can swing it, build yourself a smaller room with A/V equipment to workout.

Best of luck with your home,

Gerry

First off, thanks for the comments. All opinions are welcome, read, and contemplated.

Adding a room
The problem is that we do not have the budget to add yet another room to the house, and all the rooms are taken up with something. So we've got to stick the workout stuff somewhere. The home theater is the only room that has only a single story component. All other rooms either have a room below or a room above. So if I add 200 sqft to any of them for the equipment, this effectively kills our house floorplan, which is yet another reason the HT is an attractive option. Yeah, adding a dedicated gym would be great. So would having the 50k to do it. Our architect is already under orders to reduce the cost of the home.

Seating
I've already budgeted for 3 rows of seating, which means even with the equipment, I could do seating for 8-10. It would be very, very, very rare that I'd need more seating than that.

Aesthetics
Yeah, that would kill the theater "feel" when you walk in the room and look at the back row. But that's not a factor for me. I'm not saying that's not a valid concern for some theaters, but for mine, I could care less. What I expect to feel when I look at that back row is, "boy, sure glad I don't have to drive to the gym".

Audio/Video experience
Now, what I will care about, is it negatively affecting the watching-a-movie experience with the caveat that there will not be any working out during movie watching. If just having the equipment in the room will cause a drop in the audio and/or Video quality, that would be a major strike against.

The pro-reason for this is that there's really not anywhere else for this stuff to go. Which means I'll still be stuck going to a gym. Gym membership is $45 / month. $540 / year. ~$15k over the lifetime of the home loan. Add in the value of the 30 minutes just getting to/from the gym takes out of my workday, at about $50/hour, and going to a gym costs a LOT of money. Essentially, not going to a gym almost pays for the equipment cost of the home theater. Easily pays for the projector and seating. And I've got a sneaky suspicion that if it doesn't go in the home theater, it won't be going in the house at all.

But like I said, nothing is final, and I really appreciate the input.

I don't think having the equipment in the room would have a negative impact on acoustics. The only thing that comes to mind is that if something was loose on the equipment, it may rattle when your sub kicks in.

Can you post the floorplan for your house? You have a 4000sqft home, i'll give suggestions on where you might be able to squeeze in the exercise equipment. If you want.

Well, we've hired an architect (about 2 weeks ago) to finalize the plans, so the exact floorplan is in a state of flux. I'll post my current floorplan when I figure out how to upload, if that's even possible. I may need to get some fileserving service as my home webserver is on the fritz.

The thing to keep in mind is that we are talking about 150-200 sqft of equipment. We have a HUGE elliptical walker, and to stop going to the gym, I'll need freeweights and a few benches. I might could get away with a single machine, but probably not (I do so hate anything that slows down my workout).

4000 sqft was rounding - realistically it's currently about 3200 sqft + the home theater, which is estimated to be about 20x25. That may come down some depending on whether the architect can do it without sacraficing functionality, which hopefully he can.

Ok, I hosted floorplan screenshots:

First floor (http://midnite.dyndns.org/images/HomeTheater/Version_8_First_Floor.jpg)
Second floor (http://midnite.dyndns.org/images/HomeTheater/Version_8_Second_Floor.jpg)

Here's an initial floorplan for my thoughts. I'm sure it will get tweaked, tweaked, tweaked, Dennised, and tweaked.

Midnite's Home Theater Floorplan (http://http://midnite.dyndns.org/images/HomeTheater/HomeTheater.jpg)

Input welcome.

It's a little big, so I'll probably scale it back some due to budget. Although I really don't want to later wish it were larger. I'd rather just put in some OT to pay for it.

Oops. I got a PM warning me that there may be a virus (probably not "virus" per se, but some sort of data phisher) in my screenshots. I put them in as hyperlinks instead of images with a warning so if you're confident in your virus blockers, feel free to look at them. I plan on running a full system scan as soon as I get home, but in the meantime, be warned, and I'm sorry if I infected anyone.

According to Norton, it was a false alarm. Unless, of course, Norton is weaky, weaky. But if that's so, blame Norton!

I got this all put into 3ds max and took a first stab at lighting. It's got ledge around the top with a rope light (think that's called a soffit) and 16 can lights throughout the room. Hopefully I can find some can lights with a similar light profile.

I updated the initial thread post with a link to the movie that I will keep current, not that I actually expect any of you to sit through the 20 MB download. It's WMV HD (WMV 9). Needless to say - don't waste time trying to stream this. Save it first and watch it local, although right now it's pretty boring.

Full Movie (~20 MB WMV 9) (http://midnite.dyndns.org/images/HomeTheater/HomeTheater.wmv)

I'm currently trying to decide a good screen width / speaker combo / room size. I sat down and put together a 3dsmax scene with my initial wants and the room ended up being a 20' x 30', with a 3' screen wall making the interior "room" 20' x 30'. This ended up feeling way too big when the final animations were done. So I've shrunk it down to a 20' x 25' room. For seating, I'm leaning towards 3 rows of 4 chairs, and have berkline 45009s in the max scene. It now looks near what I want. I'll post screens when I get home, I left it rendering a 1100 frame movie.

For screen width, does anyone have any tips? The last time I researched this, I think I came up with main L/R should be 45 degrees off of the nominal seating position and should be separated by twice the screen width. Using that as a guide, I currently have it setup for a 10' wide screen (16x9). But I just stopped by dolby.com and the information there suggested the mains should be about 22-30 degrees off of nominal. Are my screen width figures off as well? I didn't see anything at dolby that addressed screen width.

I can offer a few suggestions.

I agree with the other posters that the gym equipment in the theater room wouldn't be the best...

at 24x16, that comes to 384 sq ft in the theater, and if you have 200 of that taken up with exercise equipment, it seems that won't leave much space for the theater?

Seems to me like you could carve out another room out of this space. The house looks great, btw. 4000 sq ft is alot.

My first thought is how many studies does a man need? looks like you have a nice one in the master bedroom in that octagon area, and another downstairs. Surely that isn't a study for the kids? Our kids have a playroom, so their desk is in their bedroom - studying happens there for them.

if that doesn't work, the next place I looked is the garage - at 21 x 30 that's pretty big. I would love to have a garage that size to have a workshop in, but it seems like maybe some of that space could be utilized for a workout area, especially if you took some of that "entry" space and used it as well...

Next, looks like you have a dining room, family room, and a living room. For my house, we have 1 giant "great room" (16 x 40) that serves all of these purposes. Can you do your "living" in the family room, and maybe do your "working out" in the living room?

my next idea would be to shorten the theater a bit (you don't want 16x24, their both multiples of 8's which would not be great for acoustics, are your ceilings 8' high?) maybe take it down to 21' or so, then bump out that wall on the left side of your SECOND study :rolleyes: to make a workout room/rec room combo that could also double as your entry to the theater, maybe a little snack area with a bar or something... this would obviously increase the cost to build it, and I am not sure what you have going on outside the house in that area... but thought I would throw that out there...


anyways, I think you will come up with a good solution, and if you really want your gym equipment in with the theater room, it's your house! But take this suggestion - putting the popcorn machine and candy display next to the workout gear could be counterproductive...

one more thing, unless you need all of those windows the theater for egress, I would scrap them... that might save a couple of bucks...

Yeah, I keep waffling on the exercise equipment. The room dimensions on the floorplan are not accurate for the home theater. I'm still trying to decide what's best. Right now, I'm leaning towards about 20'x25' for internal dimensions after all is said and done.

As for the room allocation, I only have one "study". I work from home, so I need this space. The "library" (at least i think that's what it is on the plans) is actually a play area for the kids. The "living" room is actually my wife's "scrapbooking" room. The "study" in the bedroom is her study. So you see, I get 2 rooms (study, Home Theater), she gets two (study in bedroom, scrapbooking room), and the kids get one (library). It's hard for me to justify taking one of their spaces for working out, especially when the most pleasant room in the house for it, in my opinion, will be the HT. (Temperature controlled room designed for entertainment)

There are no windows in the Home Theater, although I see why you thought there were. Those numbers (4 in 12 or something like that) are marks identifying the roof pitch.

But take this suggestion - putting the popcorn machine and candy display next to the workout gear could be counterproductive...

AWESOME!

Yeah, I keep waffling on the exercise equipment. The room dimensions on the floorplan are not accurate for the home theater. I'm still trying to decide what's best. Right now, I'm leaning towards about 20'x25' for internal dimensions after all is said and done.

As for the room allocation, I only have one "study". I work from home, so I need this space. The "library" (at least i think that's what it is on the plans) is actually a play area for the kids. The "living" room is actually my wife's "scrapbooking" room. The "study" in the bedroom is her study. So you see, I get 2 rooms (study, Home Theater), she gets two (study in bedroom, scrapbooking room), and the kids get one (library). It's hard for me to justify taking one of their spaces for working out, especially when the most pleasant room in the house for it, in my opinion, will be the HT. (Temperature controlled room designed for entertainment)

There are no windows in the Home Theater, although I see why you thought there were. Those numbers (4 in 12 or something like that) are marks identifying the roof pitch.

OK, I saw the kids play area upstairs, and I guess I got confused...

If the theater could be 20x 25, could you split that into 2 rooms 10x 20 (or 17 to allow for a hallway) and 15 x 20? this might save you some money, if you plan on doing RSIC, or DD + GG, then this could amount to alot of savings on the theater space. on the downside it is smaller, but 15 x 20 is still a great size (bigger than mine!)

Keep in mind the whole plan is in a state of flux. We've hired an architect to re-do it and get rid of some of the extra spaces. Our first meeting with him is July 11, but one of his marching orders is to reduce the size of the house while still maintaining all the functional areas. Any extra space currently on the 2nd floor will probably be removed - the only kids area allocated is the library and their rooms.

I really like the big feel of the theater and am hesitant to reduce it. If I were to separate it, I think I'd end up with 2 rooms I don't like, and would have to pay for doing another room and more A/V equipment. Sticking the workout gear in the HT has cost savings motivations, but primarily it's because if I had to pick one room to work out in, it would be the home theater. Most the stuff is on wheels, so maybe I can add a space adjacent to the HT where I could easily move the equipment when I want to entertain with the HT while still getting the benefit at other times.

Ok, according to THX.com, you should do the following:

Main channel: 45 degree separation
16x9 Screen: 40 degree width (or less)

Last time I came across the 45 degree thing for the mains, I was thinking it was 45 degrees off of center, which now it looks like it's actually 22.5 degrees off of center, with the screen 20 degrees or less off center. Looks like I need to re-work the room to be more narrow. I'm also guessing a CIH setup would require an AT screen since the wider aspects would probably need to overlap the mains. Still not sold on CIH, depends on budgetary impacts.

Yes CIH would normally have wider screen and it is great with all three mains behind it. It is more money to do 2.35:1 right but boy is it worth it. and if you do go AT by all means think Smx. It really is incredible.

Do you have any idea "how" much more money we are talking? Not asking for a quote, just ball-park.

And that brings up another question - curtains. I seem to remember a preferred method to CIH is to have motorized curtains that mask off to the desired aspect. For narrower aspects, wouldn't these cover the mains? What's the elegant solution here? AT curtains?

Well in my case yes AT masking or curtains. I also have the ability to move my right and left to just outside the screen if I want though have yet to feel the need to do it.

As for additional cost for CIH, well that depends on what you start with, if you have a projector or DVD player that will do the necessary scaling for you or if you need a scaler, what type of Lens you want, VC or HE and what your Throw ratio is, that will help tell you what lens range of lens you need from the various makers, whether you can get by with a less expensive model or the Top of the line models for each maker, whether you want a slide and if so motorized or do it yourself to move the lens out of the way if you want to.
Or if you use a pass through lens type.
You can also do the poor man's method of zooming and many are ok with that method at least for a while, and you can also make your own anamorphic lens there is a DIY section here for that. the lenses themselves range from say about $500 to 4 to 6K with the most falling in the 2500 ball park. lense only. motorized sled is about that cost again scaler can also be in a similiar ball park if needed.
The cost of screens if probably similiar between 16:9 and 2.35:1 or 2.37:1 at least not a huge difference if you are talking an SMX screen and depending on final size.

So anywhere from almost nothing extra if you just zoom to multi thousands if you get the top of the line everything.

Well, we had the first meeting with our architect. He made some changes to the plan, but nothing drastic. Well, except the HT. He wants to move the HT to be a basement room. That's what I wanted to do initially anyway before all the builders talked us out of it.

But that brings a few things back to the drawing board. I had decided to do ICF for the HT walls. Now they'll be basement walls. So I'm not sure what I need to do for soundproofing. Obviously the entry wall will need to be soundproof as well as the ceiling. But I'm not so sure about the floor / other 3 walls.

Us basement dwellers do it the same way as the terrestrial bunch, however, we usually pay less attention to the floors (ie, we don't add layers of plywood and green glue to the concrete floor). So you will need to treat your ceiling and walls the same way below ground as above, that is, if you are concerned about isolation.

As far as the floor goes, in the basement you have other issues, such as moisture. Some people use basement floor products such as Delta FL, Dricore, or Plankton. These are more for handling moisture and increasing comfort that for sound isolation.

Well, we sold our house. So that's one step closer to actually getting some progress on the new HT. We got asking price minus partial closing costs for seller ($3600) which I hear is pretty standard. 13 days on the market, so I guess that's not too bad. ;)

Congrats on the quick house sale! These days, less than 2 weeks is just about a miracle.

I thought I'd give you my input on the theater / exercise combo since I started with the same concept as you. Being a practical guy and loving the theater as much as I do, I figured there was nothing better than combining it with exercising, which would also add an incentive for me to be consistent.

The advantage was that the incentive worked perfectly. I have never been as faithful with my exercise as when it was in my theater room. The disadvantage (and it ended up being a deal-breaker for me) was the SMELL. Unfortunately, no amount of disinfectant, wiping down the equipment, etc. would banish the locker room smell from my theater until I moved the equipment to a separate room. (And if there's one thing you DON'T want the guests to be impressed with when they enter your new theater, it's the funky smell!)

Granted, I have a pretty brutal exercise routine on bike and treadmill, and I work up quite a sweat by the time I'm done, so your experience may be different. However, I figured I'd add my input before you smell up your brand new room! (I'm now exercising in a separate room with better ventilation / windows that I can open to air everything out.)

That is good input and something I hadn't considered. I wouldn't be doing an aerobic workout in this room, just strength training. My wife would be doing an aerobic workout though, so this could be a factor.

House sells.... buyer loses job.... house un-sells. *sigh*

Wouldn't be so bad if I hadn't rented an apartment YESTERDAY! Argh.

That is good input and something I hadn't considered. I wouldn't be doing an aerobic workout in this room, just strength training. My wife would be doing an aerobic workout though, so this could be a factor.


Hm I wonder where on the Infamous WAF, "Hey honey you are smelling up the theater!" comes? LOL

Hm I wonder where on the Infamous WAF, "Hey honey you are smelling up the theater!" comes? LOL

I think this might fail the HAF, so that could be a dealbreaker. :O

Well, another offer on the house has come and gone. Got a good offer, then the buyer had some major medical problems the next day. *sigh* I'm busy working 70 hour weeks, so I haven't even given any of this a second thought. The joys of 2 house payments.

Ummm? A lot of my posts are missing as well as a HUGE update to the initial post. What happened?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/announcement.php?f=16&a=123

Yeah, I found that right after I posted. It seems like anytime I try to get this thread started something cataclysmic happens that really kills my motivation.

Ok,
This project is very unexpectedly on, and we will be waiting on one decision regarding this before breaking ground, which we can hopefully do tomorrow. The decision is the dimensions of this room.

The plan lends itself to one dimension being 25'. To me, the long dimension should be this, but I'm thinking this might be a tad short. We're looking to eventually have 3 rows of berkline seating. A quick look at the seating shows we need about 65" for each seat (room length), and we probably want to pad that a little. I'll also want about 10' of space in front of the seating to the screen, and an AT wall at the front for the screen with speakers behind it. The width of 4 berklines is about 10', and I'm thinking about 3' on each side - so about 16' wide.

So to me, that ends up with an interior dimension of:

Width: 10' + 6' = 16'
Length: 16' + 10' + 2' = 28'

Thoughts? Can I comfortably squeeze this into a 15' x 25' exterior dimension room, or should I expand it to the interior 16' x 28' dimensions?

65 is not enough for many Berklines, 80 min unless you want to be kicking the people in front of you in the head with your feet.

So if you have two risers of 80 that takes up 13.33 ft. add a ft for the eyeballs in the front row and you are at 14.33 from the back + your 10 +your 2 = 26.33.

However you really should have at least 18 inches behind the back row for the surround sound to do it's thing and that puts you at 27.83. Make it 28. Back riser 80 + 18 and the middle riser 80.

If you can't swing going to 28 then plan to either use theater seats for the back row or more elegantly a sit at bar. Both of those options take less depth than a reclined Berkie. Check out Big Reds elegant build for the classiest sit at rear bar I've ever seen.

Thanks for the input. It's really appreciated. I can probably go for 28'. That 65" came from the berkline site, but I wasn't sure if that was total clearance or just what the seat took up, I guess it was the latter. Again, thanks for the info. I hate trying to make these huge decisions in a hurry, but I'm also really, really, really tired of waiting.

That 65" came from the berkline site, but I wasn't sure if that was total clearance or just what the seat took up, I guess it was the latter.

I have the Berkline 099s, I just measured and when fully reclined the chair is 68 inches. (the berkline site says 71) I have my back row on a 80 inch riser. When the chair is fully reclined and the front row is reclined there is 5 inch gap between the foot rest and the back of the front seat.

Just enough for your shoes to hang over without bumping the seat.

Your preferred model chair may have different dimensions.

I actually waited until I had the chairs before I built my riser so I could check my assumptions.

That's good advice Big, thanks again. I'll make sure that makes it into my construction plan. We actually won't have chairs on the very back row, not initially anyway, but I want to plan it so I can have some if/when I want them. Which will probably be the first time more than 7 people want to watch a movie at once. So we'll have an empty riser in the back giving the seats that are installed a sound premium.

At this time, I'm planning a 16' 1" x 27' interior dimension with a max 14' ceiling. We haven't decided on the actual ceiling height yet - but the "shell" is driven by other construction factors and the roof / slab placements are fixed giving up to a 14' ceiling with no cost difference (except for AC once it is up and running).

I think that I will be doing away with the AT wall in favor of a direct-to-wall screen placement with speakers in the open. I'm still not 100% sure on this, but I think it would maximize the perceived space of the room, and a big open feel is important to me.

My next main decision is how to do this phase of the construction. All the builder is doing is the minimum framing required, roofing, and external wall treatment [re: brick]. We are doing a 6" wall throughout the home for energy efficiency reasons. There are no windows in this space, and only one door to the rear left of the theater.

My thoughts are to have the builder do 6" staggered stud framing with standard insulation woven throughout and to build a very similar 6" staggered stud framed ceiling at "max" CH. There will be no sheet rock installed at this time. I'm still not 100% sure I want him to do the ceiling either.

Any input anyone could give would be appreciated.

I think that I will be doing away with the AT wall in favor of a direct-to-wall screen placement with speakers in the open.
Any input anyone could give would be appreciated.

You can use the direct to wall placement of the screen and still build a very theater looking front end hiding all the speakers. Check Out BritinVA's build thread for details.

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k242/BritInVA/Proscenium-1.jpg

My thoughts are to have the builder do 6" staggered stud framing with standard insulation woven throughout and to build a very similar 6" staggered stud framed ceiling at "max" CH. There will be no sheet rock installed at this time. I'm still not 100% sure I want him to do the ceiling either.

Any input anyone could give would be appreciated.

The ceiling you propose sounds a little funky. What is above this space? I'm not certain 2x6s are beefy enough for ceiling joists for a 15 ft span. Would need to check.

If the builder gives you a lot of push-back ($$$$) on that ceiling concept you might be better off to go standard construction then add RSIC clips and channel after the fact to get your isolation. You could use blocking and run the channel parallel to the joists to minimize loss of headroom.

Sorry Big, I thought I replied to that post. I guess it got lost in the net. Basically, I don't know much about construction. Some of the finer points of construction are going to get nailed down over the next 2 weeks. I'm having the builder do the minimum needed. If there is something "soundproof" related that needs to happen in the ceiling, now is the time to do it. We are currently planning a 11'6" height slab-to-ceiling. Hopefully that will be enough. It can go up to 13'6" without impacting the rest of the plan, but that's money I'd rather spend elsewhere.

Here is my current plan:
http://midnite.dyndns.org/images/HomeTheater/Floorplan_Screenshot_2008-10-12.jpg

The 2' "room" you see just under the HT and at the left end of the hallway will be an equipment closet that will be open to the inside of the HT. We're close on budget on this project, so I'm trying to squeeze dollars out of initial construction. I can make this space bigger if needed, but I'd rather not.

I talked to our builder and he suggested, I think, the following for the ceiling framing [if this is the wrong way to do this, I'd blame my understanding of what he plans not his actual plan]:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3202/2961771616_dc8ae524b2_o.png

I'm not sure how he plans to tie the roof into this. Can anyone clarify?

And, evidently, I need to figure out how to properly show Flickr images on the forum... but that will have to wait until after work.

Open up the flickr image. If you scoll down, there will be a link at the bottom showing the URL to use in your posting. My guess is maybe you moved the image?

Well, that's what I did. Flickr provides two types of links, and I tried both of them. I'll mess with it more tonight, only on a 5-minute break atm.

Upload to a free photo bucket account

select the bottom of the 4 alternative links and insert in your post.

you need the links that looks like:

[img]......]/img] except a [ instead of the ] before the /

or you can type the img stuff around a URL that you paste in the thread.

In trying to tie a link back to the page as well as show the image, you have extra html inserted that is messing up the whole insert. Just stick the url of the image in between the IMG tags as suggested above. Not sure about flickr but Photobucket has a setup where you just click on the code that says for forums and it copies to memory and allows you to just paste the whole correct line into your post.

<A target=_blank href='http://href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/31484147@N05/2961771616/" title="Ceiling_Framing_2008-10-21 by MidniteArrow, on Flickr'><IMG border=0 alt="" src='http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3202/2961771616_dc8ae524b2_o.png" width="1214" height="670" alt="Ceiling_Framing_2008-10-21'></A>

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3202/2961771616_dc8ae524b2_o.png

From what I see in the picture he is using two sets of joists, one for the floor and another for the ceiling. There is pretty good isolation going on in the picture but the spacing looks kind wide to support the floor properly. It may just be for illustration and not to scale.

One thing that is difficult to tell looking at the pics is whether the lower joists extend all the way to rim joist. and whether that rim joist sits on the top of the lower walls. In true room within a room framing those area would not be in contact to minimize vibration transfer.

Can someone suggest a free file hosting site and I'll just post the sketchup plan?

The model was put together by me, and I know very little about framing. Everything should be to scale. It is a "staggered stud" approach to the ceiling joisting system. There won't be a room above this, just an attic with HVAC. The lower joists do extend all the way to the rim joists, although I guess they wouldn't have to.

Maybe this will give a better idea:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3052/2962699636_e0c314e16d_o.png

Looks like you figured it out - but link in my sig spells out the photo stuff. Photobucket rules.

Yeah, I just had some extra junk in it that had to be removed. Thanks for the link though, I'll give it a read if I have more problems.

I thought of another question I had that I need to resolve and that is how do I handle doorway framing for a staggered stud wall? I put together something, pictured below, but I'm sure it is horribly off from what it needs to be.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3181/2961894137_3d4946b66e_o.png

I am trying to remember what they did in my old place. I think they just used a wider board, so no decouple at the doorway. I guess you could get your gap by placing a couple studs side ways.

The more I think about it, I think I'll be stuck with a 2x8 on the latch side of the door at least, and probably both sides. I figure the door needs to latch/screw into something, and the 2x2s pictured probably don't satisfy that need.

Well, we are almost to framing. I'm excited, and scared. Good combo I guess.

I just got back from a 4 day business trip and came home to find this:

http://midnite.dyndns.org/images/HomeTheater/HT_Slab_2008-10-25.jpg

I also had another meeting with my builder and the current plan is to "stagger joist" the ceiling as previously pictured, and to do a more standard framing on the door:

http://midnite.dyndns.org/images/HomeTheater/HT_Model_Doorframe_001.jpg

Thoughts?

I also had another meeting with my builder and the current plan is to "stagger joist" the ceiling as previously pictured, and to do a more standard framing on the door:

http://midnite.dyndns.org/images/HomeTheater/HT_Model_Doorframe_001.jpg

Thoughts?

Ok... I'm a newb in the isolation department, but doesn't sharing the door jam over the span (width) of the staggered wall defeat the point of staggering in the first place...? :confused:

I don't have the "know how" to suggest some other method I'm a afraid. :( I'm hoping somebody will chime in, cause I'm trying to figure out the exact same thing right now.

Ok... forgive the extremely rough drawing but what about something like what I did below:

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/smokinghot1/staggerstuddoorway.jpg

-Black represents your 2x8 wall (2x8" wall right?)...

-Red is 2x6 stud on door load side. You would hinge your door to a doubled up 2x6 at the doorway.

-Blue is the non-door load bearing wall, that's only supporting drywall. Use doubled up 2x2 here...

The trick is to have the first stud before and after the doorway be located on the same side as the 2x2 section of the doorway. That will give that side a little more strength.

Continue the framing around the top of the doorway in the same manner.

This isn't something I've done...just brainstorming.

Actually it is a 2x6 top and bottom plate with 2x4 staggered-studs. I'll discuss this with my builder tomorrow. I'd love to come up with something to maintain the stud isolation scheme as much as possible - I just don't really know what is required to get the door to work.

I've got another issue I just realized late tonight - the screen wall (short wall closest the door) is actually about 1/3 concrete block:

http://midnite.dyndns.org/images/HomeTheater/HT_Model_Framing_Concrete_Block_001.jpg

My question is, will I need to lose another 6" off the room and put up a stick framed 2x4 standard wall with a 2" air gap away from this concrete block, or can I just DD+GG directly onto this concrete block? What will this do to the sound isolation of the room. I've been looking for this info on existing posts in the forum, but this is a critical issue (they are probably framing this in the morning) so I thought I'd post a question on it as well.

Well, after some debate in another thread, I have decided to switch up construction on this room to a room-in-room type construction. The concrete block wall negates my previous plan for staggered stud throughout, and I was doing staggered stud mostly for that wall.

I will be using a standard 4" wall with a 1.5" air gap and an interior 4" wall. There will also be a double-ceiling with a 1.5" air gap. This should be framed tomorrow or possibly Thursday.

My next obstacle is getting my head around what I need to do for a door to this room, and what effect a door choice has on framing.

Here is my room-in-room sketch:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3048/2981415461_f120a52efd_o.jpg

There is a 1.5" air gap completely surrounding the inner room from the outer, including the ceiling. I could make the ceiling one bigger by several inches if needed, but the walls are encroaching further than I'd like already. Hopefully this is what is meant by "room-in-room".

Here are some final designs for what they are framing today. I hope it is at least somewhat competent:

Overview of the HT:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3205/2983859883_66ca472968_o.jpg

The expected viewing distances are shown with dimension lines to the right.

Frontal view of the A/V Closet:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3065/2983859911_aa138b4a49_o.jpg

Framing view of the A/V Closet:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3157/2984716598_2e163b4f85_o.jpg

I am having them frame the A/V closet with a 6" Staggered Stud wall. I don't have the space for a room-in-room with the A/V closet, but I still wanted as much sound isolation for this chamber as possible since it will potentially be open to the HT. Thoughts on this are welcome.

They started framing. Luckily, they didn't get too far before I called and told them they needed a flex-sealant beneath the walls. So far they have 2 walls of the A/V closet done. These were, per design, to be staggered stud walls. Here's what they did:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3251/2984624903_d6dbd0ce5c_o.jpg

The Red square looks fishy to me. There will be a door to the left of this portion of wall that goes into my study across the hall from the HT. That looks like a LOT of wood, all going straight across the 6" wall.

The green square shows something that happens at both ends of both of the staggered stud walls that they put in - a 6" stud going completely across the board. Is this required?

I updated the initial thread post with a project overview, or at least a placeholder for one. If anyone wants to see my design sketch (Google Sketchup file), you can download it from the initial post.

Well, a bit of good news, I stumbled across an auction for a NHT VS-2.4 on eBay. This will finish off my set for 7.1. Picked it up for $99 + shipping. Now, hopefully it will actually get here and be functional.

I also put together a google sketch of Berkline 45090s. The file is listed as 45003, because this is what I'm actually ordering, but what I ended up modeling was the 45090. These are identical except for the look (and feel) of the back.

Initial post updated with design information.

I have decided to use a Middle Atlantic rack. So far, I have identified the following needs:

Rack Equipment
AXS-43-26 (rack)
TRACK50 (pull-out tracks)
AXS-WT50 (Cable management tray for TRACK50)

What other options am I going to need. I assume they make some sort of power strips, hopefully that provide conditioned power. Any advice on other "must have" gadgets is welcome.

I updated the front page with some screenshots as well as a link to my current sketchup model.

Link (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10083351#post10083351)

My framers are almost done with the house, so now it is time to decide what wood is scrap, what is going back to the lumber yard, and what we are keeping. One of the framers suggested that I keep a few of the 24' 8" I-Joists and use those for framing the soffits. Anyone have any thoughts on whether this is a good idea?

Well, the house construction is going well, they are almost done painting. I'll probably put some screenshots up soon. It's about time to get this whole HT thing back on track. My next big hurdle is to do a decent budget and solidify the plan for the home theater. This is going well, but I hit a hurdle in that the SMX screens, which I would like to use, are just too expensive for me to justify, at least without some major convincing. The screen needs to be an AT screen, and I do not mind making it myself. Suggestions on who to look to for a good AT screen material are VERY welcome.

Suggestions on who to look to for a good AT screen material are VERY welcome.

Here you go:

My understanding is that the Sheer weave is what Ruben started with until he had them do something in a custom weave. It is also the fabric that Seymour AV was using although they now have something new. Here is a place you can but it by the yard.

http://www.interiormall.com/cat/nsample.asp?ID=113044&t=2182


Or - http://www.seymourav.com/store.asp

Thanks Dave. I like the sound of $200 for screen material much more than the other prices I've been seeing. Now I guess it is time to scan through the forum and find some good links on DIY screen construction to find the hidden costs.

Also - I updated the initial post with updated screenshots. I will update the sketchup model as soon as I find a good (and free) online file repository that provides linking, if such a thing even exists.

If anyone really wants to see the model, you can PM me with an e-mail @.

Velvet can be a bit spendy, but its all relative. You can plan on $50 - 200 for your frame depending on materials used.

I was looking at the first post - I saw you are planning OSB + drywall - I know there is a reference on Ted White's website suggesting OSB as an alternative material. What drove your choice there? Has it been hung yet?

The choice to make the first layer OSB instead of DD+GG was structural. What I have right now is two 4" walls that are completely isolated with a 1.5" air gap (that is already constructed, but that is it - no OSB yet). It's fairly sound, but the interior wall is too flexible. I talked with the framers and my general contractor for the house and they both agreed that a layer of OSB across the entire inside of the room would significantly stiffen the room. Double GWB would also stiffen, but the OSB would be significantly less prone to failure due to shear forces. I considered OSB-GWB-GG-GWB, but I think just OSB-GG-GWB will give me sufficient sound isolation.

I have updated the initial post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10083351#post10083351) with the latest sketchup file (http://www.filedropper.com/htmodel091).

Gotcha about the OSB - that makes sense.

Just thought I'd post a short update. The house is done and we are moving in, so my wife, justly, threw a bunch of boxes in the unfinished HT. As soon as we get all the boxes processed, I can get to actually building this thing. Which, unsurprisingly, could take up to 6 months. I've been working 80 hour weeks with no end in sight. The good news there is that it is paid OT, so the HT budget is getting some wiggle room.

I took a decent cut at the wiring diagram. Black is the speaker connections, red is unswitched power (you can see 3 different 20a dedicated runs from the breaker box if I am remembering what the electricians told me), and orange is the switched lighting for the room. Yellow is whatever needs to run to the projector, probably HDMI + 2-3 CAT5.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3502/3719887663_5db204b5fc_o.jpg

It's hard to tell by the pic, but it's a good idea to have the room's lighting on a different circuit than the equipment and outlets. I may have read this wrong though.

No, you read it right. Since I have 3 dedicated circuits for this room, that shouldn't be a problem. It will make the run less clean, but it is doable. I'll have to research it, if you know of any relevant threads I'd appreciate a link. If not, I'm well versed on the search tool.

I'm a little confused when you say you have 3 circuits. In the pic it looks like there is only one wire going to your panel, feeding the whole room it's power. Is there 3 lines going to the panel?

Yes, there are 3 different 20A runs from the breaker box to the HT. It's drawn that way in the Sketchup model, but hard to see on screenshots. From that I need to run lighting, all the equipment, and HVAC. I may actually have a 4th for the HVAC, but I have to attic crawl to find out and I haven't done that yet. We have 400A service for the house, so I should be able to get more runs to the room if needed, but would prefer to live with what we've got so far.

I confirmed that there are 3 electrical runs for the HT that are, if I recall, 20A each. There appears to be a 4th run for HVAC as well. I'm not sure if there are standard color codes, but the 3 20A ones are yellow, and the HVAC one is orange.

Ok, I reworked the wiring based on your suggestion, as it made sense to me. I'll probably be adding some accent lighting at some point, and it will go on the 20A lighting circuit, as will motorized curtains if I go that route.

Color Guide:
Yellow: 20A circuit from breaker box
Orange: ??A circuit from breaker for HVAC
Red: Unswitched high voltage
Teal: Switched high voltage
Green: Conditioned power
Black: Speaker Cable

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2523/3722745480_1888d541cc_o.jpg

Oh yeah, forgot blue. It is the HDMI/cat5 run to the projector.

I'm also looking for some sconces like they have in the local theater, but it's like looking for a needle in a haystack. This is the closest thing that I have found:

http://www.eurostylelighting.com/images/products/productdetail/H0743.fpx (http://www.eurostylelighting.com/EUH0743.htm)

But I'd rather not pay that much per sconce, I was thinking about a fourth of that. If anyone has seen anything like this and can point me in the right direction, I'd appreciate it.

First off, I spent some time cleaning up the original post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10083351#post10083351). It now has up to date screenshots of the design. I also posted my current design sketchup model (0.9.3 (http://www.filedropper.com/htmodel093)).

I took an initial cut at adding some bass trapping to the design:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2654/3728941270_e7db1516e7_o.jpg

I know this is probably nowhere near where it needs to be, but it's a start.

The gray is bass trapping material, the yellow is sand.

After a short discussion in the "official" thread for the Panasonic PT-AE3000U, I decided I should go read the manual for this device. According to the manual, my placement options could be calculated via a formula in the manual. I used it to create a projector placement "box". Glad I did, because the projector in the current plan was outside it. The net result was I had to raise the screen 5". Here's the sketch:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3485/3730984099_44a7be7d25_o.jpg

I am considering turning this room around. Instead of having the screen immediately on the right as you enter the room, the riser would be straight ahead with a 3' path to the left and the screen would be on the far left wall (so basically just turn the inside of the room around 180 degrees and make some riser changes.

This would lessen the quality of the rear seats. If I stick with 4, one would be against the wall opposite the door, and the quad would be off-center in the room.

What this would buy me might make that worth while though. First off, there would be more wall-space as you enter the room for controls/switches. The front stage in the current design only has about 28" of depth for an 18" speaker. If I want to frame the screen with a nice pro-scenium (I think that's the right term), then the speakers will also have to be flush with the side walls. I think I've read you want about 3' between the side walls and the front mains. With the design change, I'd have about 3' behind the screen. I could actually move things around much more as there are no doors that limit what I can do with the front stage. The other benefit to the design change is that the A/V cabinet would be in the rear of the seating instead of up front by the screen.

I prefer the "walk into the big open part of the room" feel I've got with the current design, but the positives are starting to seem like they outweigh the negatives.

Input is welcome. I will try to post an updated screenshot of the design this evening.

I'd flip it. You might consider building the riser into your entry hallway and entering at riser height. What is in the room to the south of your theater in this plan? Anything other than utilities and you probably won't want to do that. Also, Is the door orientation going to be an issue - e.g. will the door hit the seats?

http://midnite.dyndns.org/images/HomeTheater/Floorplan_Screenshot_2008-10-12.jpg

If you mean the 2'-0 room, that is the A/V closet. There's a wall drawn in that drawing, but I'm planning to use a MA 40" rack there, so that is mostly open to the HT. It will be "inside" the sound shell of the room. The door won't hit the seats. It's a 2'8 I think (might be a 3'0) opening into a 3' corridor. The rear riser would not extend to the south wall.

If you mean the room that is barely on the plan, that is my study. I'd considered building up, but then I'd have a step down into my study, and I don't think I want that. Plus, that would mean me cutting up parts of the house we JUST finished, and my SO would probably "take issue" with that.

Yeah - I meant the study. If it was a seldom used space like utilities then the step down wouldn't be an issue (to me). I wouldn't do that for finished space.

Yeah, I'm with you on that. Add to that the fact that the door opens out... getting to be a REAL easy decision.

Here are the screenshots for what I am thinking of doing.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2592/3753230083_8e1fea62e4_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2674/3753230079_fc7a187d48_o.jpg

Hopefully these give an adequate picture of what I'm thinking.

Ok, I'm trying to decide what to do for stage stabilization. I hear filling it with sand is a frequent solution, so I am adding this to the design. I will have 2 subs on the front stage (each front main L and R has a sub in it). Rather than filling the whole stage, I was thinking of just filling a platform under the speaker. Is there a reason that is a bad idea?

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2625/3783924674_0244cabcf7_o.jpg

Might not be effective. I seem to pull the archives on this issue with some regularity. Here is one of my prior pulls.

Here are some comments by Dennis on an attic theater he did - no sand -

I
Dennis, since this was built out in an existing attic space, I was curious if you could share a few of items:
1.) What kinds of solutions were put into place to maintain adequate attic ventilation - active ventilation with powered fans perhaps?
2.) Did you have to add larger joists to beef up the floor or were the existing joists already sized appropriately?
3.) What did the stage fill consist of?

Thanks.

1. There is more the adequate passive ventilation;
2. We did add new floor joists and 6' deep foundation pillars to support the additional structure weight;
3. No sand...too heavy.

Lots of good stuff in this thread too:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14268609

Even more, in this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=823565

Including these posts:

Here are the mechanics ...
Remember two things: Every action has an equal but opposite reaction and F=MA.
When the driver moves forward, the cabinet wants to move backward. A sub needs to be well anchored to something of considerably more mass than the sub in order for it to perform properly. Obviously a concrete slab has more mass. On the other hand, the sub is now mechanically coupled to the slab which is mechanically coupled to the house. Somewhere in your house, you'll have a second subwoofer ... a wall, floor, ceiling ... a few houses ago, it was a wall in my son's bedroom.

If you're building a stage, don't let any part of the stage contact a wall (1/4" separation works fine). Ideally, you'd have the stage framing on Acoutik Mat; but, if you don't, that's OK. When you fill the stage with PLAY sand, your stage now has considerably more mass than the subwoofer. The sand is a damping agent, absorbing the kinetic energy in the stage and converting it to heat. You've now eliminated or signifcantly reduced the energy transfer into your home's structure. Since a nice sized stage with sand has soooo much more mass than your sub, most of the energy the sub is producing ends up as acoustic energy in your room.

Not recommended for upper floors ... need a conversation with a structural engineer first.

I did pretty much what DKAPS did - but DE said was waste of time as not enough mass

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k242/BritInVA/HT/stage3.jpg

So I'm wondering at what constitutes enough mass.

Cheers,
Mark

Fill the sub cavities with sand and the rest with insulation.

Thanks pilgrim and hokie. These forums do a great job of notifying me of updates to every thread but my own. I guess I need to make sure I'm subscribed to my own thread! I'm dead tired tonight, but I'll try and read over that info as soon as I can dc_pilgrim.

Anyway, I'm making some changes. I've been trying to come up with a good inspired design and it is just not happening. So, SandmanX's theater looks nice, I think I'll just steal his. I'm sure I'll fall short, for budget and talent reasons, but that's no reason not to try. My equipment will be much lower end than his, but hopefully the bulk of the room will still achieve a similar aesthetic.

Needless to say, the sketchup design is going through massive changes. I'll post updates as soon as it is ready.

I also took a stab at a project to-do list. If you see any omissions or mistakes, please don't be shy about pointing them out:


Pour floor - done
Framing - Outer Room - done
Framing - Inner Room - done
External Decking / Brick - done
Door - Entrance - done
Wall Insulation - done
Wall Layer 1 - OSB
Wall Layer 2 - 5/8" GWB
Paint
Framing - Riser
Electrical Rough-In - Riser
Decking - Riser
Framing - Soffit
Framing - Stage
Framing - Columns
Electrical Rough In
Decking - Internal
Sound Treatment
Screen
Carpet
Speaker Install
Projector Install
Fabric Panels
Electrical - Final
Equipment Rack Install
Seating Install
Final Hook-up, component install


As usual, this has been incorporated into the original post.

Ok, well it sounds like the stage needs to be the following:


Acoustik Mat placed directly on slab
Stage built directly on Acoustik Mat with at least 1/4" gap between all walls
Sand fill entire stage


Reading that got me wondering if I need to be worried about water for this room, and I'm thinking I do. Dricore? More research needed I think.

Bear in mind that is best practice. I'll be honest, I haven't seen too many do the acoustikmat. The base price (Ted White sells it, but its not on his site) isn't too bad. I am guessing the shipping might hurt a bit.

Bear in mind that is best practice. I'll be honest, I haven't seen too many do the acoustikmat. The base price (Ted White sells it, but its not on his site) isn't too bad. I am guessing the shipping might hurt a bit.

It wouldn't be the first time I've given Ted money, and I'm sure it won't be the last. Maybe he'll give me a break on shipping if I buy 4 buckets of green glue at the same time.

Glad to see this finally moving!

CJ

Glad to see this finally moving!

CJ

Trust me, you're not the only one. Now if I can just get all the junk the better half put in the HT out for the yard sale...

Right now I'm mostly concerned with getting the design right vs. actually building. Anything I catch in sketchup saves a lot of time/money down the road, and I am on a limited budget. The not-being-at-work-80-hours-a-week thing is helping out.

Didn't get much done today, 12 hr work day. But I did get the basics of the stage modeled:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2610/3814207648_b5db698c4f_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2550/3813396629_30a07041df_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2475/3814207888_99812982cc_o.jpg

Here's another update. I got the columns and soffit initial cut done. I also added a curved screen. Hopefully this is starting to look somewhat familiar.

This shot is an overview
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2541/3822814442_50145be485_o.jpg

And this one is to show the screen detail (can't really see the curvedness on the other one)
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2554/3822009167_1a075db197_o.jpg

I also did some touch-up on the stage. I updated it to have a 1.5" lip and smoothed out some of the curves. I still need to fix it a bit as you can see a slight curve inwards in the middle of the top of the stage.

Ok, I've been working on riser design this morning and found a problem. My first major "thank goodness for design" moment. The rack that I am using is a Middle Atlantic AXS-40-GG (http://www.middleatlantic.com/enclosure/roll/axsm.htm). This system allows the rack to be pulled out of the wall for maintenance, but requires a 50" clearance. There was not enough room for this. My initial cut at a solution is to have a removable section of the riser (the stair and a small part of the deck) be removable. My prime concern with this approach is how to do the carpet, but I'm sure it won't be a big deal.

Here's a shot of the riser in the "normal" configuration:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2552/3823705917_9724fd4d19_o.jpg

And here it is with the rack pulled out and the TRACK 50 in place with the removable section moved:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3453/3824506508_1ab10a16ae_o.jpg

Why not just move the rack (and closet) off the ground to just above the riser height?

Anything I catch in sketchup saves a lot of time/money down the road...

I just have to say that I agree completely! Maybe it's my own form of procrastination, but SketchUp is really helping me through the design/concept phase. Once you get past the "modeling the current structure" piece, it is amazing what you can do.

I really appreciate the level of detail you are sharing with your SketchUp views. Please keep it up...

Why not just move the rack (and closet) off the ground to just above the riser height?

I considered that Moggie, but if I do, I effectively lose rack space. I can reach up to about 75". The minimum elevation off of "ground" level for the track 50 is 3". My riser will be about 18" off the ground. So if I elevate the rack, I'll only be able to use the AXS-32-GG. That would mean giving up 8 single height rack positions, or effectively 3 components. I'd rather not make that sacrifice.

Thanks for the input though, keep it coming.

I just have to say that I agree completely! Maybe it's my own form of procrastination, but SketchUp is really helping me through the design/concept phase. Once you get past the "modeling the current structure" piece, it is amazing what you can do.

I really appreciate the level of detail you are sharing with your SketchUp views. Please keep it up...

My re-design in the Sandman motif is not yet finished, but I figured I'd go ahead and re-post my model. Be warned that all they layers are turned on in this version, and there is a lot that is TBD.

Midnite's HT Model 2.0.0 (http://www.filedropper.com/htmodel200)

If anyone has a suggestion on where I may be able to find some half-round sheets of plywood for the columns, I could use some suggestions. So far I have only found one source and it is an online shop. It would come to about $700-$800 total for the 6 columns plus delivery. I called a few local lumber stores and none of them carried such items.

Online shop: http://www.aitwood.com (http://www.aitwood.com/StoreFront.Asp?WoodType=POPLAR&CATID=10&Section=HALFCYL&wDesc=Half%20Cylinders%20(180%20degrees))

Another source but may be about the same cost:

http://www.tapeease.com/2rounds.htm

Another source but may be about the same cost:

http://www.tapeease.com/2rounds.htm

Thanks BIG, but looking at their prices, they're quite a bit more. Probably would be $900+ for them. I probably should have mentioned them in my post, because that was one of the 2 online companies I found making this stuff and had already filtered them on price. But I swear, any OTHER suggestions will be news to me. ;)

I'm starting the lighting plan and so far I am thinking about a GRX-3104 using, of course, 4 zones. One for the soffit recessed lighting on the side and back walls, one for the soffit lighting over the stage, one for the rope lighting over the soffit, and one for the accent lighting behind the screen.

I am not planning on any in-riser or in-stage lighting as I am trying to control budget. I am also considering dropping the behind screen lighting. This would allow a GRX-3103 unit and a few lights / wires to be trimmed, which would probably save about $200 - $300. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

I considered that Moggie, but if I do, I effectively lose rack space. I can reach up to about 75". The minimum elevation off of "ground" level for the track 50 is 3". My riser will be about 18" off the ground. So if I elevate the rack, I'll only be able to use the AXS-32-GG. That would mean giving up 8 single height rack positions, or effectively 3 components. I'd rather not make that sacrifice.

Thanks for the input though, keep it coming.

Do you really need to be able to reach all of your equipment? The only ones I would see that you need to physically reach on a consitent basis are disk-based sources and you can put them a little below eye level.

CJ

Not necessarily CJO, I just see no benefit rack space I can not reach when there is a solution where I can reach it all. I guess the heart of it is not that it creates rack space I can't reach but that it eliminates rack space that I can reach (the lower rack positions). I'll give it some more thought though.

it looks great so far

it looks great so far

Thanks limprizol. Find something that looks good and steal it, works for me!

I did borrow your stage drawing for use in my thread...it is scary how close our designs are.

I wish I had your drawing/rendering/design talent.

So far so good!

Just grab a copy of sketchup and start playing. Go through the online tutorials (you can find them with google fairly easy). Sketchup is VERY easy to use, and for free, it is a great price. 95% of modeling a HT is done by drawing rectangles and using the push/pull tool. If you need help with something, feel free to PM me.

As always though, feel free to steal anything and everything that I post.

Well, I just acquired a GRX-3104. I realized that would probably be the first thing to have to go in since it will actually be mounted in the drywall. E-bay purchases are always iffy, but the price benefit was too much to pass up. Hopefully my first HT purchase will arrive in about a week. Wahoo.

I modeled the GRX-3104 this morning:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3491/3839480895_8582bafe64_o.jpg

Here is the Sketch-Up model (Note that in the real model, the cover is placed on the unit, just separated to show what got modeled):
http://www.filedropper.com/lutrongrafikeyegrx-3104

If anyone has a suggestion on where I may be able to find some half-round sheets of plywood for the columns, I could use some suggestions. So far I have only found one source and it is an online shop. It would come to about $700-$800 total for the 6 columns plus delivery. I called a few local lumber stores and none of them carried such items.

Online shop: http://www.aitwood.com (http://www.aitwood.com/StoreFront.Asp?WoodType=POPLAR&CATID=10&Section=HALFCYL&wDesc=Half%20Cylinders%20(180%20degrees))

I bought mine from this place: http://www.bd-international.com/Curved.htm If I remember correctly, they have (or are) a parent company so there might be a local palce in your area. I was lucky in that there is a place not too far from where I live that had them in stock (Tacoma, Wa).

Cheers!

Thanks Lamprey, I'll see if I can find out if there is one near me. For mail order, their rates are just a tad higher than the other, but if there is a local warehouse, that formula changes.

Well, I got my first piece of equipment in, so I guess I made that milestone. I'm now the owner of a GRX-3104.

I'm working on the AC and my father is recommending a mini-split system. I understand the basics of this technology and that it is better sonically but more pricey. My prime concern at this point is air exchange. A soundproof room should be relatively air tight, shouldn't it? These units just seem to move air around inside the room and cool it, they don't seem to exchange with outside air. Is this going to be a problem?

If you don't have air exchanges, your air will become stale. There's a thread around here somewhere about using dead vents to exchange the air when using a mini-split system.

CJ

Well, I just acquired a GRX-3104. I realized that would probably be the first thing to have to go in since it will actually be mounted in the drywall. E-bay purchases are always iffy, but the price benefit was too much to pass up. Hopefully my first HT purchase will arrive in about a week. Wahoo.

You do not have to have nor do you want to place the through wall unit in the wall before you drywall. You get the rough-in information and leave an opening or you can install just the sleeve and drywall around the sleeve. Install the unit once all drywall finishing and clean up has been completed.

Thanks for that info mjg. What I was referring to is that most of the electrical and light work does not come through the drywall, so I am deferring the purchase (it is all soffit / column / stage / riser mounted). I've only got 3 drywall punctures in the A/V closet, the GRX-3104, and the HVAC. So far at least, the design is not yet complete.

Just thought an update was overdue. I got slammed at work, and when I'm putting in 80+ hours a week, the HT has to slide off the active queue. It ended last week, so hopefully I can finalize designs in the next few weeks and get started.

Funny how "ended" is a relative term. It was just a short - very short - relief. I soon went back on the crazy work schedule. But, it does look like I've got some time off. I threw together some rough sketches of a HVAC plan. I'm REALLY getting tired of design at this point and REALLY want to start cutting wood, but I'm trying to stay focused. I really have no clue what I'm doing with HVAC, but hopefully this is a start. When the house was built the HVAC contractors knew I'd be adding another unit and there's already something run that supposedly I'll use, looks kind of like an insulated copper tube and maybe a power line. That's the purple line in the drawings below. Red is return, blue is supply. I've got a return coming out of the equipment closet which will have an open front, hopefully that will be sufficient to keep the equipment relatively cool.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2496/4113930736_86935b544e_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2729/4113162243_6a5860d4aa_o.jpg

Update: Got some work done on my dad's workshop, but no HT progress yet. We're about 5 sheets of GWB away from being done hanging then it is time for contractors. Hopefully in about a week or two we'll have a functional workshop and I can start working on the HT.

Update: I'm still working my way to the HT. Working on some other projects that got inserted at the front of my queue: namely a playground for the kids and my dad's workshop. That and boxes galore. Still haven't fully recovered from the move. I'd get through the work faster if they'd stop promoting me, I may just end up hiring a lot of this out. Anyway, stay tuned, the HT is still an active project.

Hang in there. I hear you.

Well, had my first meeting with the HVAC contractor and I think it went well. The guy seemed to be more knowledgeable than me, which is exactly what you want from a contractor. I now consider the project "officially underway". 5 years and I should be ready for paint!

The playground is mostly finished, and there's actually room in our garage for one car. I choose not to think about the bike, 2 baby strollers, and riding mower that are in the driveway.

Well, I actually moved a box out of the theater last night!

And now, I've moved ALL the boxes out of the theater, swept it, moved in a couch, have money in an account, and have scheduled a HVAC consult...

Question - do I need deep wallboxes to accommodate the double-drywall? I went to put in my first wallbox and when I extended it out to make up for the thickness of the wallboard+osb, the nails for the wallboard were almost missing the studs.

If you have the room for deep wallboxes, I'd do it "just because." it never hurts to have a little extra room in those boxes for wire-nuts etc should you need to modify your wiring later.

..dane

Maybe I should just check my original post before asking questions. Man, it's been long enough to forget 50% of what I knew about my own project.

It looks like I was going to use Carlon adjustable zip boxes, but they don't seem to make a 4-gang adjustable box. Probably best since I already installed it. It's not a great fit, but hopefully it will do.

So, I got the first HVAC estimate. It ranged from $4580 to $7600. They suggested a 2 ton unit for single room (~400 sqft, 3 sides exterior brick, no windows, 10" wall, heavily insulated, 1 door). Why do I feel like they walked in my house and saw $$$?

I have updated the OP with current links to the room model as well as updated screenshots and an updated task list. The updated screenshots/model are:

Screenshots
Below are some screenshots taken from my Sketchup Model v. 2.1.0 (http://www.filedropper.com/htmodel210).

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4109/5440543438_3db137ab1c.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5092/5439938099_117ac106ea.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5017/5440542380_4cfc3ea5b0.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5299/5440541788_ebcfe8463b.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5016/5439936291_716676954e.jpg