The official final DTV Table Of Allotments/channel change thread [Text View] - Page 12

TalkingRat

02-13-09, 06:30 PM

OK, my head made a few extra revolutions, so the neat little numbers are no longer there, but I think I found out the reason behind most of the discrepancies by looking at the text in Falcon's spreadsheet and comparing to see what the FCC had for pre 2/17 vs. 2/17 vs. nothing at all. So here is the list separated out by what seems to be the problem.

Within each section, data shows call signs, FCC's notation, Falcon's analog notation, and State (for reference).

Analog status column needs to start with "no analog" to be counted as already off. Are they already off? The FCC thinks pre 2/17.
WHBR pre 2/17 Early - 1/20/09 FL
WRXY-TV pre 2/17 Early - 1/20/09 FL
WTJR pre 2/17 Early - 1/20/09 IL
WHTN pre 2/17 Early - 1/20/09 TN
KNBN pre 2/17 Early - 1/31/09 SD
WVXF pre 2/17 Early - 1/31/09 VI
KVRR pre 2/17 Early - 2/1/09 ND
KRPV pre 2/17 Early - 2/10/09 NM
WLEF-TV pre 2/17 Early - 2/2/09; Reduction - 50% as of 10/24/08 WI
KJRR pre 2/17 Early - 2/1/09 ND
KFME pre 2/17 Early - 2/2/09 ND

These count in FCC's pre 2/17 but not in Falcon's 231 count of already off, just in the "early" count.
WNCF pre 2/17 Early - 2/15/09 AL
KGWN-TV pre 2/17 Early - 2/15/09 WY
KAYU-TV pre 2/17 Early - 2/16/09 - Reduction - 50% due to equipment failure WA
KKTV pre 2/17 Early - 2/16/09 CO

These look like they count in Falcon's 231 number so they are not discrepancies for pre 2/17. The FCC calls KQCK 'KDEV.'
WTBY pre 2/17 No analog - as of 10/1/08
WSKY-TV pre 2/17 No analog - as of 11/07
KDEV pre 2/17 No analog as of 6/27/08 due to equipment failure, STA req't to remain silent (KQCK, formerly KDEV)

These are included in Falcon's 231 count, but FCC isn't counting as pre 2/17 for the various reasons noted. [ETA: meaning they count as 2/17, or don't count it at all, or don't have the station listed on their spreadsheet.]
WJAL 2/17 No analog - as of 1/15/09 - fire destroyed analog transmitter building MD
WOWK 2/17 No analog - as of 1/29/09 WV
KBDI 2/17 No analog - as of 1/5/09 - due to equipment damage CO
WCLJ 2/17 No analog - as of 11/19/08 IN
WKYU 2/17 No analog - as of 12/19/08 - due to equipment failure KY
WWSB 2/17 No analog - as of 2/1/09 FL
KWBU 2/17 No analog - as of 2/3/09 due to equipment failure TX
KWKB 2/17 No analog - as of 2/6/09 - due to equipment failure IA
KCFG 2/17 No analog - as of 2/7/09 - due to equipment failure AZ
KVTH 2/17 No analog - as of 2/9/09 AR
KVTN 2/17 No analog - as of 2/9/09 AR
WFXU 2/17 No analog - as of 8/4/08 FL
KDOR 2/17 No analog - as of before 1/30/09 OK
WBCC 2/17 No analog - due to equipment failure, not to be repaired FL
KCGE blank No analog MN
KDCK blank No analog KS
KDMI blank No analog IA
KETZ blank No analog AR
KMDE blank No analog ND
KRMU blank No analog CO
KWKS blank No analog KS
WFBD blank No analog FL
WTLF blank No analog FL
WTPX blank No analog WI
WTWV blank No analog TN
WEDY blank No analog - antenna failed on 7/31/05, was on 65. CPTV does not plan to reconstruct the analog facility. CT
WCBB blank No analog - as of 1/11/09 ME
WMEA blank No analog - as of 1/11/09 ME
WMEB blank No analog - as of 1/11/09 ME
WMED blank No analog - as of 1/11/09 ME
WDSI blank No analog - as of 1/19/09 TN
WOLF blank No analog - as of 1/19/09 PA
WTLH blank No analog - as of 1/19/09 GA
KGTF blank No analog - as of 1/23/09 GU
KETS blank No analog - as of 1/25/09 AR
KFNR blank No analog - as of 10/12/08 WY
KRWF blank No analog - as of 10/22/08 - due to equipment failure MN
WBGU blank No analog - as of 12/15/08 OH
KPSD blank No analog - as of 12/3/08 SD
WBKO blank No analog - as of 12/7/08 KY
WLWC blank No analog - as of 12/9/08 MA
WLVT blank No analog - as of 2/1/09 PA
KCWC blank No analog - as of 2/6/09 - due to equipment failure WY
KWNV blank No analog - as of 7/1/08 - unable to fund operations - unknown when/if analog operations will return NV
WDTI blank No analog - as of around 1/26/09 IN
KRMJ blank No analog - dark as of 12/31/08 due to equipment failure CO
WZVI blank No analog - digital only satellite of WSVI, never had a analog channel VI
KHCV blank No analog - due to equipment failure, not to be repaired WA
WSWG blank No analog - ended on 1/30/07, was on 44, ended due to equipment failure and cost to replace GA
KBEO blank No analog - off the air since 9/24/08, request to remain off the air WY
KTTU blank No analog - silent as of 1/22/09 - had been at 10% as of 10/18/08 due to equipment damage AZ
KGLA blank No analog - station began broadcasting 6/05/07 as DTV only LA
WBIH blank No analog - Station flash cut to DT in 2006 AL
WYPX blank No analog - was previously on 55, but ended on 9/28/07 to make way for MediaFLO NY
KQCK blank No analog as of 6/27/08 due to equipment failure, STA req't to remain silent WY
KDCU no listing No analog KS
KOFT no listing No analog NM
KRBK no listing No analog MO
KVSN no listing No analog CO
WDPM no listing No analog AL
WFBT no listing No analog NY
WHDT no listing No analog FL
WMBF no listing No analog SC
WPJT no listing No analog SC
WRPT no listing No analog MN
WUNW no listing No analog NC
WWJX no listing No analog - analog facilities not to be constructed MS
KSQA no listing No analog - analog facility not built, was to be on 22 KS
KCWV no listing No analog - KCWV to commence operations on digital only MN
(NEW) no listing No analog TN
NEW no listing No analog IL
NEW no listing No analog - analog not to be constructed MS
NEW no listing No analog - CP expired for analog 9 in 2007 AK
NEW no listing No analog - not to be constructed ID

The FCC counted these as pre-2/17 but Falcon's spreadsheet does not.
KDLV-TV pre 2/17 <there's a stray apostrophe in this column> SD
KAKE-TV pre 2/17 Early - 2/17/09 KS
KXVA pre 2/17 Early - 2/17/09 or earlier TX
WHAG-TV pre 2/17 Early - 6/10/09 MD
WJET-TV pre 2/17 Early - 6/10/09 PA
WAWD pre 2/17 Early - TBD FL
WTOG pre 2/17 Reduction - 50% by 11/3/08 FL
WJHG-TV pre 2/17 X FL
WUSF-TV pre 2/17 X FL
KQTV pre 2/17 X MO
KCFW-TV pre 2/17 X MT
KTVM pre 2/17 X MT
KUSG pre 2/17 X UT
KUTV pre 2/17 X UT
KXNE-TV pre 2/17 X - end to analog no longer planned prior to 2/17/09 NE
WTVY pre 2/17 X - no longer seeking to end analog before 6/12/09 AL
WENY-TV pre 2/17 X - prior plan to end analog early complicated by inability to reach an agreement with the tower owners NY

There, wasn't that fun! :D
I'll note this sorted list in the former post.

ETA: Falcon is incrediby accurate. All this has my eyes going bloodshot.

StudioTech

02-13-09, 06:45 PM

KCEN (analog 6/digital 9) in Waco TX is rebranding from "NBC 6" to "NBC 9" on 2/17, and their PSIP shows 9.1 rather than 6.1.
Isn't that against current FCC rules?

justalurker

02-13-09, 07:07 PM

South Bend IN
WSBT and WSJV's STAs to move their digital to their analog channels have both been granted

WSBT 22 30 22 Accepted 2/3 Granted 2/9 http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1292272&Service=DS&Form_id=911&Facility_id=73983
WSBT, INC. HEREBY REQUESTS SPECIAL TEMPORARY AUTHORITY FOR WSBT-DT TO COMMENCE DIGITAL OPERATION ON CH. 22 ON THE FEB. 17, 2009 DATE SPECIFIED IN ITS MODIFIED DIGITAL CP (FILE NO. BMPCDT-20080620ABV) IN THE EVENT THAT THE TRANSITION TO DIGITAL TELEVISION IS DELAYED. SINCE WSBT-TV NOW BROADCASTS ON CHANNEL 22 AND WILL CEASE ANALOG OPERATIONS ON FEBRUARY 17, GRANT OF THIS REQUEST WILL NOT RESULT IN ANY SIGNIFICANT INTERFERENCE TO OPERATING FULL-POWER TELEVISION STATIONS.

WSJV 28 58 28 Accepted 1/30 Granted 2/9 http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1292058&Service=DS&Form_id=911&Facility_id=74007
THE STATION SEEKS SPECIAL TEMPORARY AUTHORIZATION ('STA') TO MOVE TO ITS POST-TRANSITION DIGITAL CHANNEL EARLY ON OR ABOUT 12:00:01 PM FEBRUARY 17, 2009 (ON JANUARY 16, 2009, THE STATION NOTIFIED THE FCC THAT IT WOULD TERMINATE ANALOG SERVICE ON OR ABOUT NOON ON FEBRUARY 17, 2009). THE STATION WILL CEASE OPERATION ON ITS PRE-TRANSITION DIGITAL CHANNEL SIMULTANEOUSLY WITH THE COMMENCEMENT OF OPERATION ON ITS POST-TRANSITION DIGITAL CHANNEL PURSUANT TO THE INSTANT STA. VIEWERS WILL EXPERIENCE NO LOSS OF SERVICE IN THE TRANSITION FROM PRE-TRANSITION TO POST-TRANSITION DIGITAL CHANNELS.

That would leave WNDU (16 42 42) as the only station in the market that would be able to "nightlight" for 60 days. I have not seen the Friday the 13th certifications required by the three stations yet, but if the stations work together we'll be done next Tuesday (other than WNDU's currently unapproved maximization application that would move their channel 42 digital to the top of the taller channel 16 analog tower).

Crawls and other advertising is still running ALL focusing on February 17th.

Certifications Filed

WSBT 22 30 22 Feb 13 2009 2:42PM (http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1296161&Form_id=910&Facility_id=73983)
WSJV 28 58 28 Feb 13 2009 4:30PM (http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1296233&Form_id=910&Facility_id=74007)

Both stations chose the "I certify that the above-referenced station IS in compliance with the public interest conditions for analog turn off set forth in Public Notice, FCC 09-7, released February 11, 2009." option ... although they are flash cuts so they can't be nightlighting.

WNDU's (16 42 42) certification does not show in their correspondence folder (http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/corrp_list.pl?Facility_id=41674) (at this time).
I have not checked other Gray TV properties yet. On the air WNDU is doing everything specified and still promoting a Feb 17th shutdown.

JimboG

02-13-09, 07:16 PM

Nitewatchman

02-13-09, 07:53 PM

Check out the sua sponte reconsideration on page 4 of the FCC's order implementing the DTV Delay Act. http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-09-9A1.pdf It looks like stations get one more chance to do what Sen Rockefeller and Chairman Copps are strongly encouraging them to do and keep analog on the air.:rolleyes:

Looks like we aren't going to get a "form" for that this time ... This time, it says the notification for that to FCC is by email .....

TalkingRat

02-13-09, 07:54 PM

It looks like the forms are being posted without delay. KEZI and KLSR will shut down as planned 2/17/09

KEZI
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101296111&formid=910&fac_num=34406

KLSR
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101296132&formid=910&fac_num=8322

From KEZI's "Certification/Alternate Showing: Analog termination on February 17, 2009" Form:
STATIONS KVAL, EUGENE, AND KCBY, COOS BAY, EACH AFFILIATED WITH THE CBS NETWORK, AND STATIONS KMTR, EUGENE, AND KMCB, COOS BAY, EACH AFFILIATED WITH THE NBC NETWORK, WILL CONTINUE TO OPERATE THEIR ANALOG SERVICES AFTER FEBRUARY 17, 2009. SEE ATTACHED HERETO COPIES OF THE CERTIFICATIONS TO THAT EFFECT FILED TODAY FOR KVAL, KCBY AND KMTR. (A COPY OF THE CERTIFICATION FILED FOR KMCB WAS NOT AVAILABLE AT THE TIME OF FILING THE INSTANT CERTIFICATION.)

Inundated

02-13-09, 07:57 PM

I have not checked other Gray TV properties yet. On the air WNDU is doing everything specified and still promoting a Feb 17th shutdown.

Gray's WTAP/15 Parkersburg WV is one of those stations, and at last check, I don't think theirs is in, either.

Remember how stations had to make a I can't believe that the FCC is changing the rules in the middle of the game yet again. The only minor bit of relief is that stations do not have as strong of an obligation to provide analog shut off info in Spanish if they claim they are unable to do so. I guess we should be thankful for small favors.

Hold on there...this may have been because of stations like Dayton's WPTD/16, which is now (according to local reports) asking to rescind the grant, since the entire market went from shutting off analog to keeping analog inside of two days...

justalurker

02-13-09, 08:10 PM

I have not checked other Gray TV properties yet. On the air WNDU is doing everything specified and still promoting a Feb 17th shutdown.I have checked ALL 14 of Gray's properties on the "challenged" list. There are only two certifications.

KWTX-TV Waco TX will shut down with KCEN-TV providing the 60 day nightlight.
WTOK-TV Merridian MS will NOT shut down February 17th

Desert Hawk

02-13-09, 08:17 PM

Bakersfield's February 17 switch to digital only has been canceled! KBAK and KERO have officially announced that they will keep analog on until June 12. KGET and KUVI have not made an official announcement that I have seen, but they have stopped the crawls and KBAK's website says that all 4 stations will keep analog on until June 12. KUVI was approved by the FCC to shut off analog on Feb. 17, but they probably are having second thoughts about being the only full power station in the market without an analog signal.

Nitewatchman

02-13-09, 08:24 PM

From FCC Headlines at www.fcc.gov :

FCC Releases Lists of TV Stations' Responses to Requirements for Analog Termination on February 17, 2009.

Public Notice (PDF)

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-09-245A1.pdf

Public Notice (word) :

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-09-245A1.doc

Appendix A

Excel :

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-09-245A2.xls

PDF :

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-09-245A2.pdf

Appendix 2:

Excel:

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-09-245A3.xls

PDF :

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-09-245A3.pdf

Appendix 3:

Excel :

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-09-245A4.xls

PDF :

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-09-245A4.pdf

======================

..... All 106 stations required to file responded to the February 11th Public Notice by 6:00 p.m. today.(4) Attached as Appendix A is a list of the 53 stations that certified they will comply with the public interest conditions set forth in the February 11th Public Notice. The partial waiver is reinstated for these stations, which may cease analog operations on February 17, 2009, subject to the conditions. Appendix B identifies the 10 stations which made an alternate showing. These showings are now under review and the Media Bureau will endeavor to resolve these cases prior to February 17th and will notify the stations of the results.6 Appendix C lists the 43 stations that, in response to the February 11th Public Notice, indicated that they no longer intend to terminate analog operations on February 17, 2009.....

(4) - 4 The difference between the 123 stations identified in the Appendix to the February 11th Public Notice and the 106 stations required to file today results from technical corrections made to the Appendix after its publication.

herdfan

02-13-09, 08:29 PM

IMHO West Virginia Media Holdings will provide the 5 page sob story for both WOWK and WTRF. If the FCC doesn't accept their sob story it won't accept anyone's.

I know what happened to WOWK. Anything happen to WTRF?

I don't remember seeing any news stories about WOWK going all digital.

justalurker

02-13-09, 08:37 PM

All 106 stations required to file responded to the February 11th Public Notice by 6:00 p.m. today.The incredible shrinking numbers. :DThe difference between the 123 stations identified in the Appendix to the February 11th Public Notice and the 106 stations required to file today results from technical corrections made to the Appendix after its publication.

The 12 Gray stations I'm missing are not on any of the three lists. The two I found are on their respective lists.

So ... does that mean the 12 Gray stations do not have to file? :confused:

Are we getting clearer or muddier? :D

Nitewatchman

02-13-09, 08:44 PM

Technical corrections ... I wonder what that means ....

Are we getting clearer or muddier? :D

Just closer to this round being over .... Which it will be in 4 days and 15 Minutes regardless ....

Let's hope we don't see this happen all over again in a little less than 4 months ....

Trip in VA

02-13-09, 08:59 PM

I've given up trying to understand it. I've also ceased updating my DTR page outside of updates e-mailed to me as I feel pretty lost and crushed under the weight of all the work it needs.

I'll bring it up to date with the latest updates you good folks have sent me by tomorrow evening. I took the last few days to work on homework and things, and I'm not sure I should stop that to root around in the FCC site where things are changing from second to second. I can't keep up anyway.

- Trip

Desert Hawk

02-13-09, 09:04 PM

Any list of stations that were approved to end analog on 2/17 that have changed their minds and will keep analog on until 6/12? I am especially curious about KUVI.

mrvideo

02-13-09, 09:14 PM

Isn't that against current FCC rules?

I do not believe so. I believe that the ruling is that stations did not have to rebrand and that they could continue as is (which I personally dislike).

mrvideo

02-13-09, 09:42 PM

The subject says it all. What is the link to the updated list of 106 stations?

justalurker

02-13-09, 09:46 PM

Technical corrections ... I wonder what that means ....Not sure, but here are the 20 stations that appeared in the "challenged" list on 2/11 that were not on the three Friday the 13th lists.

KOLN,KUPK-TV,WCAV,WHSV-TV,WIBW-TV,WIFR,WMTV,WNDU-TV ,WSAW-TV,WSAZ-TV,WTAP-TV
- GRAY TELEVISION LICENSEE, LLC

KABY-TV,KVLY-TV - HOAK MEDIA OF DAKOTA LICENSE, LLC
KNOE-TV - HOAK MEDIA OF LOUISIANA LICENSE, LLC
WJFW-TV - NORTHLAND TELEVISION, LLC
KXJB-TV - PARKER BROADCASTING OF DAKOTA, LLC
KAQY - PARKER BROADCASTING OF LOUISIANA LLC
WICZ-TV - STAINLESS BROADCASTING, L.P.
WGBC - WGBC-TV, LLC
KLWY - WYOMEDIA CORPORATION

Three stations are on the "certified" list that were not on the "challenged" list:
WFFF-TV - BURLINGTON, VT
WDIO-TV - DULUTH, MN
WIRT - HIBBING, MN

justalurker

02-13-09, 09:47 PM

The subject says it all. What is the link to the updated list of 106 stations?See the three lists in the post by Nitewatchman above.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15817415#post15817415

The three lists add up to 106 stations.

mrvideo

02-13-09, 10:25 PM

See the three lists in the post by Nitewatchman above.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15817415#post15817415

The three lists add up to 106 stations.

Crap, I didn't look at one of the lists closely.

So, why are the Gray TV stations no longer on the list? One of those is in my DMA. It is one of the big 4 that the FCC said couldn't shutdown. If it was pulled, why weren't the other 3. Can't WMSN now sue the FCC in that they violated their own criteria?

Damn, this is so screwed up. :mad:

justalurker

02-13-09, 10:36 PM

Can't WMSN now sue the FCC in that they violated their own criteria?Perhaps, but it looks like they have chosen to stay analog beyond Feb 17th instead of complying with the conditions that WISC and WKOW have agreed to follow in order to end analog on the 17th. They could have chosen the path of WISC and WKOW, but they didn't.

If I were WMSN I would immediately file to end analog on March 17th ... or whatever day is 30 days from when they file. To save viewer confusion I'd wait until after Feb 17th to do the notification process. They could use the extra month of analog as a service to the community. :)

I don't know why Gray's stations were pulled. Perhaps they did enough before the law was changed that the FCC felt that they had satisfied the 30 day requirements more than most stations. The Gray station in my market has been relentless in pounding the end of analog into viewers minds.

mrvideo

02-13-09, 10:47 PM

Perhaps, but it looks like they have chosen to stay analog beyond Feb 17th instead of complying with the conditions that WISC and WKOW have agreed to follow in order to end analog on the 17th. They could have chosen the path of WISC and WKOW, but they didn't.

The WKOW and WISC filings didn't really give into the 8 stupid requirements. Their justification basically was that WMSN is going to stay analog and therefore the FCC criteria for listing Madison was no longer valid.

If I were WMSN I would immediately file to end analog on March 17th ... or whatever day is 30 days from when they file. To save viewer confusion I'd wait until after Feb 17th to do the notification process. They could use the extra month of analog as a service to the community. :)

Who knows what they are planning. But, when the stations in town got together, I'm not sure they all knew that WMTV was pulled from the "no you can't" list.

After doing my posting, I thought of a reason how Gray Television got WMTV removed from the list. They are on channel 15 and that needs to be cleared for Chicago area emergency use. It seems that one public service item trumped the other. I do not know if this is the reason or not. Hopefully we'll get a local thread posting stating the reason.

mathwhiz

02-13-09, 10:53 PM

TalkingRat

02-13-09, 11:03 PM

So, merging the lists, they got to 106 by adding 5 more stations and removing 22. With their new number they have 53 complying with the special requirements, 10 will be reviewed with their alternate plan, and 43 withdrew their 2/17 application.

It didn't look to me like KEZI said they were complying, I thought they said they should be off the 123 list because 4 stations in their DMA withdrew their 2/17 application. But as has been pointed out, I'm no good reading those things. :p

Anyway, here's today's info, separated by who was on the original 123, who got added, and who got deleted. Sort State, City, Call Sign

State, City, CallSign, Network, Disposition, Licensee

Originally on the list:
AL MOBILE WALA-TV FOX WITHDREW LIN OF ALABAMA, LLC
AL MOBILE WKRG-TV CBS WITHDREW MEDIA GENERAL COMMUNICATIONS HOLDINGS, LLC
AL MOBILE WPMI-TV NBC WITHDREW NEWPORT TELEVISION LICENSE LLC
AR EL DORADO KTVE NBC WITHDREW MISSION BROADCASTING, INC.
CA BAKERSFIELD KBAK-TV CBS WITHDREW FISHER BROADCASTING - CALIFORNIA TV, L.L.C.
CA BAKERSFIELD KERO-TV ABC WITHDREW MCGRAW-HILL BROADCASTING COMPANY, INC.
CA BAKERSFIELD KGET-TV NBC WITHDREW HIGH PLAINS BROADCASTING LICENSE COMPANY LLC
CA SAN LUIS OBISPO KSBY NBC SPECIAL REQTS KSBY COMMUNICATIONS, INC.
CA SANTA BARBARA KEYT-TV ABC SPECIAL REQTS SMITH MEDIA LICENSE HOLDINGS, LLC
CA SANTA MARIA KCOY-TV CBS SPECIAL REQTS COWLES CALIFORNIA MEDIA COMPANY
FL PENSACOLA WEAR-TV ABC WITHDREW WEAR LICENSEE, LLC
IA SIOUX CITY KCAU-TV ABC SPECIAL REQTS CITADEL COMMUNICATIONS COMPANY, LTD.
IA SIOUX CITY KMEG CBS SPECIAL REQTS WAITT BROADCASTING, INC.
IA SIOUX CITY KPTH FOX SPECIAL REQTS KPTH LICENSE, LLC
IA SIOUX CITY KTIV NBC SPECIAL REQTS KTIV TELEVISION, INC.
IL QUINCY WGEM-TV NBC SPECIAL REQTS QUINCY BROADCASTING COMPANY
IL ROCKFORD WQRF-TV FOX SPECIAL REQTS NEXSTAR BROADCASTING, INC.
IL ROCKFORD WREX-TV NBC SPECIAL REQTS WREX TELEVISION, LLC
IL ROCKFORD WTVO ABC SPECIAL REQTS MISSION BROADCASTING, INC.
IN ELKHART WSJV FOX SPECIAL REQTS WSJV TELEVISION, INC.
IN SOUTH BEND WSBT-TV CBS SPECIAL REQTS WSBT, INC.
KS ENSIGN KBSD-TV CBS WITHDREW SUNFLOWER BROADCASTING, INC.
KS GARDEN CITY KSNG NBC WITHDREW NVT WICHITA LICENSEE, LLC
KS GOODLAND KBSL-TV CBS WITHDREW SUNFLOWER BROADCASTING, INC.
KS SALINA KAAS-TV FOX WITHDREW NEWPORT TELEVISION LICENSE LLC
KS TOPEKA KSNT NBC WITHDREW NVT TOPEKA LICENSEE, LLC
KS TOPEKA KTKA-TV ABC SPECIAL REQTS FREE STATE COMMUNICATIONS, LLC
KY BOWLING GREEN WNKY NBC WITHDREW MMK LICENSE LLC
LA WEST MONROE KARD FOX WITHDREW NEXSTAR BROADCASTING, INC.
MA NEW BEDFORD WLNE-TV ABC SPECIAL REQTS GLOBAL BROADCASTING OF SOUTHERN NEW ENGLAND LLC
MA SPRINGFIELD WWLP NBC SPECIAL REQTS WWLP BROADCASTING, LLC
MD SALISBURY WBOC-TV CBS AND FOX WITHDREW WBOC, INC.
MI ALPENA WBKB-TV CBS WITHDREW THUNDER BAY BROADCASTING CORPORATION.
MO HANNIBAL KHQA-TV CBS WITHDREW Barrington Quincy License LLC
MS GREENVILLE WXVT CBS SPECIAL REQTS SAGA BROADCASTING, LLC
MS GREENWOOD WABG-TV ABC SPECIAL REQTS COMMONWEALTH BROADCASTING GROUP, INC.
MS MERIDIAN WMDN CBS SPECIAL REQTS WMDN TV, LLC
MS MERIDIAN WTOK-TV ABC WITHDREW GRAY TELEVISION LICENSEE, INC.
MS TUPELO WTVA NBC WITHDREW WTVA, INC.
MS WEST POINT WLOV-TV FOX SPECIAL REQTS LINGARD BROADCASTING CORPORATION
MT BILLINGS KSVI ABC WITHDREW NEXSTAR BROADCASTING, INC.
MT BILLINGS KTVQ CBS WITHDREW KTVQ COMMUNICATIONS, INC.
MT BILLINGS KULR-TV NBC WITHDREW MMM LICENSE II LLC
MT HARDIN KHMT FOX WITHDREW MISSION BROADCASTING, INC.
ND DEVILS LAKE WDAZ-TV ABC ALTERNATE FORUM COMMUNICATIONS COMPANY
NE HAYES CENTER KWNB-TV ABC ALTERNATE PAPPAS TELECASTING OF CENTRAL NEBRASKA, L.P. (DE LTD P/SHIP)
NE KEARNEY KHGI-TV ABC ALTERNATE PAPPAS TELECASTING OF CENTRAL NEBRASKA, L.P. (DE LTD P/SHIP)
NE LINCOLN KLKN ABC WITHDREW CITADEL COMMUNICATIONS, LLC
NE SUPERIOR KSNB-TV FOX WITHDREW COLINS BROADCASTING CORPORATION
NY BINGHAMTON WBNG-TV CBS SPECIAL REQTS WBNG LICENSE, INC.
NY BINGHAMTON WIVT NBC WITHDREW NEWPORT TELEVISION LICENSE LLC
NY CARTHAGE WWNY-TV CBS ALTERNATE UNITED COMMUNICATIONS CORPORATION
NY NORTH POLE WPTZ NBC SPECIAL REQTS HEARST-ARGYLE STATIONS, INC.
NY WATERTOWN WWTI ABC WITHDREW NEWPORT TELEVISION LICENSE LLC
OH DAYTON WDTN NBC WITHDREW WDTN BROADCASTING, LLC
OH DAYTON WHIO-TV CBS WITHDREW MIAMI VALLEY BROADCASTING CORPORATION
OH DAYTON WKEF NBC WITHDREW WKEF LICENSEE L.P.
OH DAYTON WRGT-TV FOX WITHDREW WRGT LICENSEE, LLC
OH STEUBENVILLE WTOV-TV NBC WITHDREW WTOV, INC.
OR COOS BAY KCBY-TV CBS WITHDREW FISHER BROADCASTING - OREGON TV, L.L.C.
OR COOS BAY KMCB NBC WITHDREW NEWPORT TELEVISION LICENSE LLC
OR EUGENE KEZI ABC SPECIAL REQTS KEZI, INC.
OR EUGENE KLSR-TV FOX SPECIAL REQTS CALIFORNIA OREGON BROADCASTING, INC.
OR EUGENE KMTR NBC WITHDREW NEWPORT TELEVISION LICENSE LLC
OR EUGENE KVAL-TV CBS WITHDREW FISHER BROADCASTING - OREGON TV, L.L.C.
RI PROVIDENCE WJAR NBC SPECIAL REQTS MEDIA GENERAL COMMUNICATIONS HOLDINGS, LLC
RI PROVIDENCE WNAC-TV FOX SPECIAL REQTS WNAC, LLC
RI PROVIDENCE WPRI-TV CBS SPECIAL REQTS TVL BROADCASTING OF RHODE ISLAND, LLC
SD FLORENCE KDLO-TV CBS WITHDREW YOUNG BROADCASTING OF SIOUX FALLS, INC.
TX BRYAN KYLE FOX SPECIAL REQTS COMCORP OF BRYAN LICENSE CORP.
TX SAN ANGELO KLST CBS SPECIAL REQTS NEXSTAR BROADCASTING, INC.
TX SAN ANGELO KSAN-TV NBC SPECIAL REQTS MISSION BROADCASTING, INC.
TX TEMPLE KCEN-TV NBC SPECIAL REQTS CHANNEL 6, INC.
TX VICTORIA KAVU-TV ABC SPECIAL REQTS SAGA BROADCASTING, LLC
TX VICTORIA KVCT FOX WITHDREW SURTSEY MEDIA, LLC
TX WACO KWKT FOX SPECIAL REQTS COMCORP OF TEXAS LICENSE CORP.
TX WACO KWTX-TV CBS SPECIAL REQTS GRAY TELEVISION LICENSEE, LLC
TX WACO KXXV ABC SPECIAL REQTS CENTEX TELEVISION LIMITED PARTNERSHIP
VA CHARLOTTESVILLE WVIR-TV NBC, CW SPECIAL REQTS VIRGINIA BROADCASTING CORPORATION
VT BURLINGTON WCAX-TV CBS SPECIAL REQTS MT. MANSFIELD TELEVISION, INC.
VT BURLINGTON WVNY ABC SPECIAL REQTS LAMBERT BROADCASTING OF BURLINGTON, LLC
VT HARTFORD WNNE NBC SPECIAL REQTS HEARST-ARGYLE STATIONS, INC.
WI CHIPPEWA FALLS WEUX FOX SPECIAL REQTS GM CHIPPEWA FALLS LICENSING LLC
WI EAGLE RIVER WYOW ABC ALTERNATE WAOW-WYOW TELEVISION, INC.
WI EAU CLAIRE WQOW-TV ABC SPECIAL REQTS WXOW-WQOW TELEVISION, INC.
WI LA CROSSE WKBT CBS SPECIAL REQTS QUEENB TELEVISION, LLC
WI LA CROSSE WLAX FOX SPECIAL REQTS GM LACROSSE LICENSING LLC
WI LA CROSSE WXOW-TV ABC SPECIAL REQTS WXOW-WQOW TELEVISION, INC.
WI MADISON WISC-TV CBS SPECIAL REQTS TELEVISION WISCONSIN, INC.
WI MADISON WKOW-TV ABC SPECIAL REQTS WKOW TELEVISION, INC.
WI MADISON WMSN-TV FOX WITHDREW WMSN LICENSEE, LLC
WI WAUSAU WAOW-TV ABC ALTERNATE WAOW-WYOW TELEVISION, INC.
WI WITTENBERG WFXS FOX ALTERNATE DAVIS TELEVISION WAUSAU, LLC
WV BLUEFIELD WVVA NBC SPECIAL REQTS WVVA TELEVISION, INC.
WV CHARLESTON WCHS-TV ABC WITHDREW WCHS LICENSEE, LLC
WV CHARLESTON WVAH-TV FOX WITHDREW WVAH LICENSEE, LLC
WV HUNTINGTON WOWK-TV CBS SPECIAL REQTS WEST VIRGINIA MEDIA HOLDINGS, LLC
WV WHEELING WTRF-TV CBS SPECIAL REQTS WEST VIRGINIA MEDIA HOLDINGS, LLC
WY LANDER KGWL-TV CBS ALTERNATE MARK III MEDIA, INC.
WY RIVERTON KFNE FOX ALTERNATE FIRST NATIONAL BROADCASTING CORP.
WY ROCK SPRINGS KGWR-TV CBS ALTERNATE MARK III MEDIA, INC.

Added to the List:
MN DULUTH WDIO-TV ABC SPECIAL REQTS WDIO-TV, LLC
MN HIBBING WIRT ABC SPECIAL REQTS WDIO-TV, LLC
NM FARMINGTON KOBF NBC SPECIAL REQTS KOB-TV, LLC
NY ELMIRA WETM-TV NBC WITHDREW NEWPORT TELEVISION LICENSE LLC
VT BURLINGTON WFFF-TV FOX SPECIAL REQTS SMITH MEDIA LICENSE HOLDINGS, LLC

Dropped off the List:
IL FREEPORT WIFR CBS LIST CORRECTION GRAY TELEVISION LICENSEE, LLC
IN SOUTH BEND WNDU-TV NBC LIST CORRECTION GRAY TELEVISION LICENSEE, LLC
KS GARDEN CITY KUPK-TV ABC LIST CORRECTION GRAY TELEVISION LICENSEE, LLC
KS TOPEKA WIBW-TV CBS LIST CORRECTION GRAY TELEVISION LICENSEE, LLC
LA COLUMBIA KAQY ABC LIST CORRECTION PARKER BROADCASTING OF LOUISIANA LLC
LA MONROE KNOE-TV CBS LIST CORRECTION HOAK MEDIA OF LOUISIANA LICENSE, LLC
MS MERIDIAN WGBC NBC LIST CORRECTION WGBC-TV, LLC
ND FARGO KVLY-TV NBC LIST CORRECTION HOAK MEDIA OF DAKOTA LICENSE, LLC
ND VALLEY CITY KXJB-TV CBS LIST CORRECTION PARKER BROADCASTING OF DAKOTA, LLC
NE LINCOLN KOLN CBS LIST CORRECTION GRAY TELEVISION LICENSEE, LLC
NE NORTH PLATTE KNOP-TV NBC LIST CORRECTION HOAK MEDIA OF NEBRASKA LICENSE, LLC
NY BINGHAMTON WICZ-TV FOX LIST CORRECTION STAINLESS BROADCASTING, L.P.
SD ABERDEEN KABY-TV ABC LIST CORRECTION HOAK MEDIA OF DAKOTA LICENSE, LLC
VA CHARLOTTESVILLE WCAV CBS LIST CORRECTION GRAY TELEVISION LICENSEE, LLC
VA HARRISONBURG WHSV-TV ABC LIST CORRECTION GRAY TELEVISION LICENSEE, LLC
WI EAU CLAIRE WEAU-TV NBC LIST CORRECTION GRAY TELEVISION LICENSEE, LLC
WI MADISON WMTV NBC LIST CORRECTION GRAY TELEVISION LICENSEE, LLC
WI RHINELANDER WJFW-TV NBC LIST CORRECTION NORTHLAND TELEVISION, LLC
WI WAUSAU WSAW-TV CBS LIST CORRECTION GRAY TELEVISION LICENSEE, LLC
WV HUNTINGTON WSAZ-TV NBC LIST CORRECTION GRAY TELEVISION LICENSEE, LLC
WV PARKERSBURG WTAP-TV NBC LIST CORRECTION GRAY TELEVISION LICENSEE, LLC
WY CHEYENNE KLWY FOX LIST CORRECTION WYOMEDIA CORPORATION

justalurker

02-13-09, 11:07 PM

I'm so glad they delayed this so we wouldn't be lost and confused by what is going on - I agree - I'm so lost as to what station will be on or off. And most local station websites are hard to find any DTV info - much less DTV info for their own station!

I'll keep MI and OH updated as time permits - but will only be updated to the best of my ability to figure out what is going on with the FCC's website.

I've made some market specific posts in my market's thread. All three remaining analog stations in my market have it on their websites although it does require a little searching to read the exact details of when.

WSJV 28 58 28 says 9am Tuesday on the website. Noon is filed with the FCC.
WSBT 22 30 22 says 6:30pm on the website leaving analog in nightlight until midnight.
(Someone in our market caught a test of 22 digital early this morning.)
WNDU 16 42 42 is saying 6:30pm on the air.
WNIT 34 35 35 had an analog failure March 12th, 2008.
WHME 46 48 48 went on January 16th (and is petitioning for a move to 46).
One of the LPs (WMYS 69) has filed a displacement app asking for 34 analog.

Inundated

02-14-09, 12:29 AM

I was going to mention WTAP being missing from the new lists, but I see the folks here are all over it.

justalurker

02-14-09, 12:43 AM

After doing my posting, I thought of a reason how Gray Television got WMTV removed from the list. They are on channel 15 and that needs to be cleared for Chicago area emergency use. It seems that one public service item trumped the other. I do not know if this is the reason or not. Hopefully we'll get a local thread posting stating the reason.One other thing to note: ALL of the Gray stations had STAs filed on January 16th informing the FCC specifically of plans to end analog on February 17th. They also made Feb 9th filings confirming a Feb 17th shutdown. Only two of the Gray stations filed Friday the 13th requests ... one to say that there is another station in that market nighlighting and the other to change their mind and remain on the air.

There are other stations who filed an official silent notification/STA on January 16th and a Feb 9th confirmation ... but it appears that IF a station filed a Friday the 13th filing the FCC is using the Friday the 13th filing to override the earlier filings. It is possible that stations made Friday the 13th filings that actually made it harder on themselves.

So ... look for the pattern of YES Jan 16th STA + YES Feb 9th Confirmation + NO Feb 13th filing and I believe you will find the stations "technically" excluded. :D

(In my market WSBT did not have the Jan 16th STA and WSJV filed a Feb 13th concession/certification.)

mrvideo

02-14-09, 01:03 AM

So ... look for the pattern of YES Jan 16th STA + YES Feb 9th Confirmation + NO Feb 13th filing and I believe you will find the stations "technically" excluded. :D

While the logic sounds fine, the flaw is that WMTV didn't have to file because they were technically excluded before the deadline.

I'm awaiting a posting from the WMTV chief engineer explaining what happen.

mrvideo

02-14-09, 01:07 AM

The three lists add up to 106 stations.

While the lists add up to 106, none of those are the revised FCC list, with some sort of official cover document explaining why.

All of this is nothing but a frak'd up mess created by our do-good government.

justalurker

02-14-09, 01:22 AM

While the logic sounds fine, the flaw is that WMTV didn't have to file because they were technically excluded before the deadline.Chicken and egg. IF WMTV (or the other 10 Gray stations "excluded") would have filed they would have been listed based on their filing (as Gray stations KWTX and WTOK were listed) instead of being excluded.

It was a risk, but likely they just didn't file "on advice of counsel" - and won the bet. The commission's counsel and the 20 station's counsel (mostly Gray stations) probably had a nice "hypothetical" conversation. ;)

afiggatt

02-14-09, 01:23 AM

mrvideo

02-14-09, 01:31 AM

The commission's counsel and the 20 station's counsel (mostly Gray stations) probably had a nice "hypothetical" conversation. ;)

It would not have surprised me in the least.

Supposidly Gray put out a harsh statement after the original list was released. The person who mentioned that on the local thread has yet to cough up a link as proof. The Gray Television website has nothing.

justalurker

02-14-09, 01:38 AM

BTW: I don't work for Gray but I have done a lot based on the advice of counsel that represents stations in FCC matters. :D

joblo

02-14-09, 01:59 AM

Remember how stations had to make a binding decision to shut off analog on Feb 17 and tell the FCC by last Tuesday? Turns out it wasn't so binding after all.

Check out the sua sponte reconsideration on page 4 of the FCC's order implementing the DTV Delay Act. http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-09-9A1.pdf It looks like stations get one more chance to do what Sen Rockefeller and Chairman Copps are strongly encouraging them to do and keep analog on the air.:rolleyes:
Well, you know what this is about, don't you?

There were some markets that had planned to turn off all analog service, but because of the FCC February 11 requirements, one or more majors in those markets are now planning to continue regular analog service. So now some non-major stations in those markets – well, at least one station, WPTD – want to continue their service as well, which seems only fair.

There was a story about this in Dayton Daily News:

Local stations to delay digital TV transition
By Jim DeBrosse

Staff Writer

Friday, February 13, 2009

DAYTON — ThinkTV (Channel16) may be the only local TV station to make the switch to digital transmission only on Feb. 17, but it is seeking permission to join other local broadcasters in delaying the end of its analog signal.

The station, a Public Broadcasting Corp. affiliate, is consulting with Washington counsel and the Federal Communications Commission to see if it can delay the implementation of its digital-only signal, ThinkTV President David Fogarty said Friday afternoon, Feb. 13.

. . .

http://www.daytondailynews.com/n/content/oh/story/news/local/2009/02/13/ddn021309dtvweb.html

joblo

02-14-09, 02:09 AM

BTW: I don't work for Gray but I have done a lot based on the advice of counsel that represents stations in FCC matters. :D
I called two Gray stations on Friday and was told the following:

WHSV, Harrisonburg, VA will continue regular analog service after February 17, but probably not until June 12. Termination date still to be determined.

WCAV, Charlottesville, VA, will flash-cut its singleton on February 17 as planned.
(WVIR Charlottesville agreed to the FCC’s eight conditions.)

If I had known it was this much of a mess I would have asked to hear it from their lawyers. :rolleyes:

Falcon_77

02-14-09, 03:47 AM

KXNE-TV pre 2/17 X - end to analog no longer planned prior to 2/17/09

I have fixed KXNE as I was reading some .pdf on their website a while back, when newer information was available (i.e. the correspondence folder), confirming analog was off. Reading the latest update on their website confirms this.

I finished going through the FCC end list, along with the exception list and now show the following:

# 1068: operating Post-Transition facilities
# 169: with maximized Construction Permits but otherwise ready (included above)
# 748: to end analog operations early (before 6/12/09)
# 119: stations wanting to end by 2/17/09, which need to provide certification, etc. to the FCC for review
# 241: have already ended (or will not commence) analog operations (included above)

Of course, I am still behind, but it's hard to read all the board updates and update the spreadsheet. I'm trying to figure out what to do with WOWK and KNOP which already ended analog ops (as best as I can tell) and need to certify the early end of analog. Two other stations are no longer going to end by 2/17, which brings us to the 119.

Of the 748 number, 4 are after 2/17 and before 6/12/09 and another 5 are still "TBD."

Blood-shot eyes? Yeah... tell me about it... :eek:

That's all I can do tonight.

foxeng

02-14-09, 06:56 AM

Certifications Filed

WSBT 22 30 22 Feb 13 2009 2:42PM (http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1296161&Form_id=910&Facility_id=73983)
WSJV 28 58 28 Feb 13 2009 4:30PM (http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1296233&Form_id=910&Facility_id=74007)

Both stations chose the "I certify that the above-referenced station IS in compliance with the public interest conditions for analog turn off set forth in Public Notice, FCC 09-7, released February 11, 2009." option ... although they are flash cuts so they can't be nightlighting.

WNDU's (16 42 42) certification does not show in their correspondence folder (http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/corrp_list.pl?Facility_id=41674) (at this time).
I have not checked other Gray TV properties yet. On the air WNDU is doing everything specified and still promoting a Feb 17th shutdown.

Some of those are more than likely from the initial filings before the date was approved by Congress when stations were filing preemptively. In my own stations case, we filed preemptively to terminate on Feb 17th and filed for STA to operate post transition facilities. We later chose not to terminate early but to ride it out until June 12th, but the STA giving us approval to operate post transition facilities based on the initial filing for Feb 17th was approved yesterday. Based on that, I don't think the FCC has a good handle on what is happening and that is why we see these discrepancies. Looks like to me you have one side of the room handling the tech issues and the other side is handling the legal issues and neither one talks to the other. In our case, we have just been issued an authorization that may not be in line with the current rules! I will figure that one out next week.

foxeng

02-14-09, 07:01 AM

Hold on there...this may have been because of stations like Dayton's WPTD/16, which is now (according to local reports) asking to rescind the grant, since the entire market went from shutting off analog to keeping analog inside of two days...

My guess is that if someone NOW wants to terminate on Feb 17th, FORGET IT. But if a station wants to back out and terminate June 16th, the FCC will have NO problem with that. It gets people like Rockefeller off their butts.

foxeng

02-14-09, 07:19 AM

One thing that I was struck by reading that list is by the number of stations with analog equipment failures in the past several months. Which at this close to the (original) shutdown made little sense to the station to fix. With a lot of stations likely having analog equipment well pass the replacement date, based on the recent rate of failures, we could see a bunch of stations go off the air prematurely and suddenly in the four months leading up to June 12. Hope those stations that have analog failures have full power digital broadcasts so they are not stuck for a time.

Now that is a real possibility and not because someone is TRYING to sabotage things, but stations have been nursing along transmitters and antennas looking at the 17th knowing that they were in need of maintanance, and if the cost was going to be more than it was worth, they didn't bother with it and now they will be trying to get 4 more months out if it and a number of them aren't going to make it.

A station in our group has a transmitter from the early 80's like one we operated up until 2005. Because they were not going back to their analog channel, there was no way they were buying a new analog transmitter for 3 years. We shipped them our old transmitter so they could use parts from it to limp along until the 17th. I hope they can make it another 4 months.

Since we were going back to our analog channel, we got a new analog transmitter in 2005 that is convertible to digital so it made sense for us. Many stations didn't have that option though and are now running past borrowed time. Even my own current digital transmitter I have put off some of the smaller maintenance items knowing it was going off on the 17th. Now I will have to go back and make the time and do those to get it to reliably last another 4 months. Luckily it is only 3 years old so there is nothing major to be done to it but the delay has changed my "to do list" and some projects we had planned to do post transition we have to put on hold and others that would be easier to do post transition that can't be pushed will have to be done while still on the air. Next four months is going to be interesting in a lot of ways for a lot of people.

foxeng

02-14-09, 07:51 AM

Digital Switch Notes
FCC Officially Moves DTV Date
Is waiving the requirement of notice, public comment and a 30-day delay period on commission actions
By John Eggerton, Broadcasting & Cable - February 13, 2009

The FCC released an order Friday evening officially moving the deadline for the discontinuation of analog broadcasts from Feb. 17 to June 12.

In doing so, it said it was waiving the Administrative Procedures Act's requirement of notice, public comment and a 30-day delay period on commission actions, pointing to its tight deadlines and a reading of the date-move bill it says justifies the call.

The order is not to be confused with the guidelines the FCC issued last week about how it would implement the date move, which was ordered by Congress in a bill that was passed last week and signed into law by the President this week. But the FCC did use the Friday order to change a couple of things ion those implementation guidelines.

For one, it concluded that stations do not have to provide emergency information in Spanish on their analog nightlight signals (they must still provide DTV information in Spanish, however).

For another, it will allow stations that previously said they wanted to cut off analog on Feb. 17 but now have changed their minds, to do so.

In last week's guidance, the commission had said that it would only let them change their minds unless it were an emergency or a disaster. Any other stations who were planning to go on Feb. 17--there were 368 of them--who now want to stay on must inform the commission by Sunday, Feb. 15, at 6 p.m., adding another to the growing list of DTV-related dates.

The order also delegates to the Media Bureau the decisions on the 123 stations who told the FCC they wanted to pull the plug on Feb. 17 but are in markets where all the network affiliates want to shut off analog on Feb. 17. The FCC isn't letting those 123 stations do so unless they comply with various conditions after concluding that it could not let all the affiliates in a market switch.

Among the conditions are that someone in the market, not necessarily on of the 123 stations, has to maintain an analog signal for at least 60 days providing nes and public affairs as well as emergency and DTV transition info.

Stations had until 6 p.m. Friday night (Feb. 13) to let the FCC know whether they planned to comply with those conditions, and the FCC was still working through those at press time.

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/174208-FCC_Officially_Moves_DTV_Date.php

Inundated

02-14-09, 09:02 AM

My guess is that if someone NOW wants to terminate on Feb 17th, FORGET IT. But if a station wants to back out and terminate June 16th, the FCC will have NO problem with that. It gets people like Rockefeller off their butts.

Agreed. My general thought is that if a station with February 17th authorization wants to keep analog on, Commissioner Copps and Sen. Rockefeller would all but fly out there and give approval in person.

TalkingRat

02-14-09, 11:01 AM

Thanks for the update, Falcon! So the FCC has misplaced 51 stations already shutdown. GEFG.

Ken H

02-14-09, 11:18 AM

Trip in VA

02-14-09, 11:25 AM

Another reminder that although this topic may be considered politically related by some, any and all biased political comments will result in posts being edited, posts being deleted, members being banned from a topic, and members being banned from AVS.

It's been a long time since I've moderated a message board, so I'm guessing banning members from individual threads must be a new feature. Pretty nifty idea...

- Trip

afiggatt

02-14-09, 11:32 AM

# 748: to end analog operations early (before 6/12/09)
# 119: stations wanting to end by 2/17/09, which need to provide certification, etc. to the FCC for review
# 241: have already ended (or will not commence) analog operations (included above)
..
Of the 748 number, 4 are after 2/17 and before 6/12/09 and another 5 are still "TBD."
Good job. I am amazed that you have been able to keep up as much as you have. The differences between your numbers and the FCCs are rather large. When I wrote that 600+ would be off by next Wednesday, I was using the 681 number from the FCC and subtracting the approx number they appeared to have ordered to maintain analog. So it could be 700+, although some will be night-light stations and I'm not sure how we count those. Their analog broadcast will still be blocking digital reception in some cases.

Someone posted to the DC-Baltimore thread that they had called MPT (Maryland Public TV which has 6 stations, 2 already digital only) and were told that MPT was planning to shut analog down in April. With the lockdown on planned shutdowns from Feb. 18 to March 13, it sounds as if we may get another round of shutdowns in April, once stations have time to make sense of the new rules, coordinate with other stations in their market, and file for shutdown in April. But the shutdowns in April will be scattered on different dates leading to more confusion. Of course, that assumes that acting Chairman Copps doesn't move the goalposts again. Then a final flurry of shutdowns in June (we can only hope).

Will we see an accurate number of digital only stations put out by the FCC next week after Feb. 17? 620(?) versus 740(?) will have some political repercussions.

jeff2631

02-14-09, 11:45 AM

I have fixed KXNE as I was reading some .pdf on their website a while back, when newer information was available (i.e. the correspondence folder), confirming analog was off. Reading the latest update on their website confirms this.

I finished going through the FCC end list, along with the exception list and now show the following:

# 1068: operating Post-Transition facilities
# 169: with maximized Construction Permits but otherwise ready (included above)
# 748: to end analog operations early (before 6/12/09)
# 119: stations wanting to end by 2/17/09, which need to provide certification, etc. to the FCC for review
# 241: have already ended (or will not commence) analog operations (included above)

Of course, I am still behind, but it's hard to read all the board updates and update the spreadsheet. I'm trying to figure out what to do with WOWK and KNOP which already ended analog ops (as best as I can tell) and need to certify the early end of analog. Two other stations are no longer going to end by 2/17, which brings us to the 119.

Of the 748 number, 4 are after 2/17 and before 6/12/09 and another 5 are still "TBD."

Blood-shot eyes? Yeah... tell me about it... :eek:

That's all I can do tonight.

also
# 368: stations approved by FCC to end on 2/17/09 per FCC-09-7A1.PDF
I guess these are part of the 748 number.

Sammer

02-14-09, 11:56 AM

I know what happened to WOWK. Anything happen to WTRF?

I don't remember seeing any news stories about WOWK going all digital.
The WTRF analog transmitter failed in late 2007 and they have been been operating from an auxiliary transmitter with reduced coverage ever since. Their pre-transition digital transmitter on Channel 32 doesn't provide full coverage either but their new digital Channel 7 transmitter does.

Nitewatchman

02-14-09, 02:23 PM

So now some non-major stations in those markets – well, at least one station, WPTD – want to continue their service as well, which seems only fair.

There was a story about this in Dayton Daily News:

WBDT is also mentioned in that article as "not shutting down analog Feb 17", but I believe they are in the same situation as WPTD - As they filed Feb 17 Shutoff notice and are on the "list" (but not the "106' station lists) ....

Both(WBDT/WPTD) are currently still running info on-air for February 17 shutdown ...

Since there seems to be no way to know if either has or will send the email notification to FCC as specifed, I wonder if we might know if they're going to get the "OK" to keep analog up past Feb 17 before or after the Feb 15 deadline for those Email notifications ... In any case perhaps FCC will release a notice and a list of stations(station?) rather than notifying the stations at any given time indivudually ...

In other words, If not via a "list" from FCC on Monday Or tuesday or so, perhaps the first place we might find out might be from the on-air notifications, or perhaps here for WPTD, as they seem to be updating this fairly quickly :

http://www.thinktv.org/digitaltv.html

Falcon_77

02-14-09, 07:05 PM

I just uploaded my 2nd update of the day (that's a first). I should be current now, but there are still plenty of "Gray" areas.

# 1069: operating Post-Transition facilities
# 169: with maximized Construction Permits but otherwise ready (included above)
# 710: to end analog operations early (before 6/12/09)
# 21: stations wanting to end by 2/17/09, which need to provide certification, etc. to the FCC for review
# 62: stations which have certified analog end procedures for 2/17/09 or filed an alternate showing
# 247: have already ended (or will not commence) analog operations (included above)

A number of stations threw in the towel, but many others are sending mixed messages. e.g. KUVI, WPTD and WBDT

I don't know what to do with the 21 stations on the 4th line yet. For now, I've kept them as early/pending.

It doesn't help that many websites can't keep up with what's going on with their own stations (if they even bother to post info about their own station!). However, now that the FCC is giving stations an "out" to keep analog, which they have filed to end by 2/17/09, suggests that this roller-coaster is going to continue for a while.

I simply can't see how viewers are going to benefit from all of this if, the FCC, broadcasters and the rest of us are having a hard time figuring out what is going to happen.

Viewers had better learn how to re-scan their boxes, in case the original idea of one date was so that they wouldn't have to perform multiple re-scans.

jeff2631

02-14-09, 07:22 PM

How many stations are ending on 2/17/09 now?
There are 368 per FCC-09-7A1.PDF and 53 per DA-09-245A1.PDF
for a total of 421 unless some change their mind.

foxeng

02-14-09, 07:37 PM

Business News
Digital TV converter box coupons still trickling out
no priority for needy areas
By PETER SVENSSON, AP Technology Writer

10:03 PM EST, February 13, 2009
NEW YORK (AP) — Though hundreds of TV stations are turning off their analog signals next week, households in line for their $40 coupons for digital converter boxes are likely to have to wait at least several weeks longer.

The fund that subsidizes the coupons has reached its authorized limit. It's still sending out around 100,000 coupons a day as older coupons expire unused, but there's a wait list of 4 million coupons. At that rate, it would take the National Telecommunications and Information Administration about two months to process coupon requests made today.

The stimulus bill in Congress contains added funding for the program. When it takes effect, the NTIA will be able to clear the backlog in two weeks, said spokesman Bart Forbes.

Mindful of the funding shortfall, Congress extended the deadline for cutting analog broadcasts to June 12 from Feb. 17. But about a third of all full-power stations have either already turned off their analog signal or have applied to stick to Tuesday's date.

Markets where many or all major-network stations plan to turn off analog transmissions next week are San Diego and Santa Barbara, Calif.; Providence, R.I.; La Crosse and Madison, Wis.; Rockford, Ill.; Sioux City, Iowa; Waco, Texas; Macon, Ga.; Scranton, Pa.; and Burlington, Vt.

The NTIA can't give priority to coupon requests from households in those areas, Forbes said. It is legally obligated to send out coupons on a first-come-first-served basis.

http://www.myfox8.com/business/sns-ap-tec-dtv-wheres-my-coupon,0,360266.story

foxeng

02-14-09, 08:05 PM

FCC
FCC Says 53 Analog 'At Risk' Stations Can Go Feb. 17
At least 421 stations can go on the original Feb. 17 date
By John Eggerton, Broadcasting & Cable

2/13/2009 7:07:36 PM MT
According to the FCC, exactly half of the 106 stations that had to comply with various FCC conditions to pull the plug on analog Feb. 17 will actually be doing so.

Initially, the FCC had identified 123 stations that would need to self-certify that they would comply with the conditions, but the number was actually 106, it said Friday (some stations had been misclassified).

Of those 53 that agreed to the conditions, 10 said they had extenuating circumstances for why they wanted to pull the plug but couldn't comply, and 43 decided to stay on the air in analog past Feb. 17.

Depending on where those stations are, that will take care of one of the conditions, which is that at least one station in the market keeps an analog signal on for at laset 60 days past Feb. 17 with at a minimum news, public affairs, emergency and DTV education programming, which can contain commercials.

The 53 stations going Feb. 17 join 368 who have already been cleared to do so, meaning that 421 stations--or 431 if all 10 of the hardship cases are approved--will be making the transition to al-digital service Feb. 17. The count could also differ because many may contine their own analog nightlight service.

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/174246-FCC_Says_53_Analog_At_Risk_Stations_Can_Go_Feb_17.php

justalurker

02-14-09, 08:08 PM

# 21: stations wanting to end by 2/17/09, which need to provide certification, etc. to the FCC for review

I don't know what to do with the 21 stations on the 4th line yet. For now, I've kept them as early/pending.We'll know for sure Wednesday morning ... I expect they ALL will be gone unless any change their mind. The one in my market will be gone at 6:30pm ET on Tuesday.

Viewers had better learn how to re-scan their boxes, in case the original idea of one date was so that they wouldn't have to perform multiple re-scans.Even with everything going on the 17th more than one rescan is needed in my market. One channel is going at 9am, another at least 15 hours later early on the 18th (I doubt they will flip during Letterman). I just hope all the cable/satellite companies can keep up.

The 53 stations going Feb. 17 join 368 who have already been cleared to do so, meaning that 421 stations--or 431 if all 10 of the hardship cases are approved--will be making the transition to al-digital service Feb. 17. The count could also differ because many may contine their own analog nightlight service.Hmmm ... they like to leave the 21 reclassified stations in limbo, don't they?

gjvrieze

02-14-09, 09:42 PM

jeff2631

02-14-09, 09:45 PM

Is there a list of which channels the FCC gave the "official" go ahead too?

53 http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-09-245A2.pdf
368 http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-09-7A2.pdf

jtbell

02-14-09, 11:28 PM

justalurker

02-15-09, 12:56 AM

Stations which have previously notified the FCC that they were going to terminate analog signals on 2/17 (Tuesday night) have until 6 PM tomorrow (Sunday) to change their mind by e-mail. I wouldn't be surprised to see the FCC issue a final list on Monday.I hope so, even though Monday is a holiday. It would also publicly clear up the 21 in limbo. (Didn't make the list of 368 because they were mistakenly on the "must certify" list but are also not on the "certified" list.)

The media bureau also has to rule on the 10 stations that chose the alternative method.

jtbell

02-15-09, 03:19 AM

Ugh, I forgot about Monday being a holiday. For me, it isn't. :(

Still, the fact that the FCC made the deadline for withdrawing notifications at 6 PM on a Sunday might indicate that they plan to process them that evening. Otherwise, why not wait at least until Monday morning?

afiggatt

02-16-09, 09:22 AM

# 710: to end analog operations early (before 6/12/09)
# 21: stations wanting to end by 2/17/09, which need to provide certification, etc. to the FCC for review
# 62: stations which have certified analog end procedures for 2/17/09 or filed an alternate showing

Falcon_77, not sure how to interpret these numbers. Does the 710 included the 62 stations which have certified? I guess we may have to wait several more days to figure it all out, but the key number is the total number of stations that will be digital only on February 18.

Falcon_77

02-16-09, 10:30 AM

It includes both the 21 and the 62. It also includes 11 which I have marked as "Early/TBD" and those which will end early, but after 3/13.

I don't see any FCC updates from last night. Perhaps their system can't post these on a Federal holiday.

sebenste

02-16-09, 05:26 PM

http://www.grimmy.com/images/MGG_Archive/MGG_2009/MGG0216.gif

Scooper

02-16-09, 06:18 PM

http://www.grimmy.com/images/MGG_Archive/MGG_2009/MGG0216.gif

That needs to be run again around June 12th :D

justalurker

02-16-09, 06:31 PM

That needs to be run again around June 12th :DBut only on analog websites ...

5:28 to go on WNDU, 14:29 to go on WSJV, 23:59 to go on WSBT. Get r done!

afiggatt

02-16-09, 09:46 PM

The FCC has posted an updated list for all stations, noting which ones are going off by tomorrow. See

http://www.fcc.gov/PN021609.pdf
http://www.fcc.gov/021609AttachmentA.pdf

Even a quick check shows errors on the FCC appendix. WHAG 25 has not turned off the analog for one. Their total numbers don't match Falcon_77's. Quote: "Of the nation’s nearly 1,800 full-power televisions stations, 220 will have terminated their analog signals before Tuesday and another 421 will terminate their analog signals onTuesday before 11:59 pm, for a total of 641 stations, or about 36% of all full-power stations nationwide."

Still the headline will be that over 1/3rd of all stations will have no analog as of February 18 (not counting the night-lights). If there is no public uproar, that should help boost the number of stations that will sign off in April and should take the wind out of any political push to again postpone the final shutdown date.

Scooper

02-16-09, 10:26 PM

Another error -
WRDC can't nitelite, because it's on 28 (where it's new digital is going) -
unless -
WRDC and WLFL are both going to be on 27 as seperate subchannels.

Falcon_77

02-17-09, 02:08 AM

It looks like all but 1 of the 21 stations that were in limbo are turning off analog by 2/17 and most of those were planning on ending analog as of 2/16. Only WICZ has appeared to delay their transition.

So far, I've confirmed the following ends to analog (at least analog programming), by way of the websites:

WNDU, WSAZ, WEAU, WIBW, WJFW & KABY

Many more confirmations should follow in the morning, but it will be a lot more interesting by this time tomorrow. Hopefully, we will confirm which stations have pulled the plug on analog by the weekend.

justalurker

02-17-09, 02:18 AM

WNDU is now playing the NAB DTVAnswers program (since 11:59pm) with English and Spanish subtitles.
I'm having trouble receiving analog 16 at the moment (digital 42 is fine).

How to connect your converter box. :D

Trip in VA

02-17-09, 03:37 AM

WOWK documentation:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1295965&Service=DS&Form_id=911&Facility_id=23342

- Trip

Stanislav

02-17-09, 04:34 AM

Still the headline will be that over 1/3rd of all stations will have no analog as of February 18 (not counting the night-lights). If there is no public uproar, that should help boost the number of stations that will sign off in April and should take the wind out of any political push to again postpone the final shutdown date.

Got in on this thread late, but finding it invaluable to keep up with the "Transition Shenanigans." Thanks to all of you.

I don't think there will be a huge uproar, because from what I see in many (most?) markets is tends to be the most-watched OTAs (the affiliates of the big 4 networks) that are hanging on to analog until June. A big proportion of the stations killing analog on schedule (that is, the original schedule) tend to be PBS outlets, indies, and affiliates of the lesser networks. (I.e, the stations that can least afford to keep two transmitters going for 4 more months.) As long as folks can still get their soaps, reality garbage, Leno/Letterman, etc., the impact will be ameliorated to some degree.

Most Florida markets seem to follow this pattern, with a few exceptions. Ft. Myers, for example, where the network affiliates have all but ignored OTA viewers for many years anyway -- they have one of the highest cable/satellite penetrations on the state, and the UHFs there have long promoted themselves on-air and in advertising with their cable channels, not their RF OTA channels.

There also seems to be an "all or nothing at all" mentality -- mostly, the ABC/CBS/NBC/Fox outlets in a market are either all killing analog tomorrow, or none of them are. I guess no one wants to be a lone wolf when their main competitors are still cranking out NTSC.

Stanislav

02-17-09, 04:51 AM

Even more complex questions are: are all the stations killing analog tomorrow also maximizing/finalizing their DTV facilities, or are some remaining on their temporary channels/ERPs because of conflicts with other stations that are maintaining their status quo? And, related, how many stations who are waiting until June to shut down analog are still going to switch to their final DTV channel /facilities anyway (where there is no conflict, i.e. not using their analog channel for their final DTV.)

A case in point for the latter locally (Orlando) is WKMG (6 analog, 58 temporary DTV, 26 permanent DTV) -- WVEN ending their analog service on channel 26 clears the way for WKMG to move. Even though WKMG is not switching off analog right now, their latest DTR seems to imply that they are planning to move to 26 ASAP, but are dealing with antenna swap issues and the need to continue operating at reduced power until the work is done. I suppose I won't really know until the day WKMG disappears off 58 and I have to rescan.

One other seemingly contradictory element of that FCC spreadsheet: how can a station provide analog "nightlight" service when their final DTV channel is the same as their analog channel? Example: local WRDQ is 27 analog, 14 temporary DTV, and will have their permanent DTV on 27, yet they are shown as a nightlight station. Does this mean they will continue on 14 past the (new) deadline while nightlighting, or is this just an FCC goof?

This whole situation is nuts -- they should have either stuck with the original transition date, or mandated everyone to stay on analog until June. This whole "piecemeal" approach just needlessly complicates the whole matter. (But then, that is what government bureaucracies do best, eh?)

bicker1

02-17-09, 05:06 AM

I disagree with one thing: Forcing everyone to wait until June would not have been better. It might have caused a little less confusion, but quite frankly, not much -- the confusion people have now is cured by turning on the television and checking. And allowing stations to transition now puts even more pressure to complete the transition by June 12 NMW.

jtbell

02-17-09, 08:10 AM

joblo

02-17-09, 09:00 AM

And allowing stations to transition now puts even more pressure to complete the transition by June 12 NMW.
As long as we don’t have too many stations turn off analog before June 12. If we get down to only 100 or 200 stations in advance of the deadline, some will suggest there’s no need for a deadline at all, that it should be left to the market to handle the stragglers.

bicker1

02-17-09, 09:02 AM

True, but I don't think I'd object to that, that much.

afiggatt

02-17-09, 09:41 AM

This whole situation is nuts -- they should have either stuck with the original transition date, or mandated everyone to stay on analog until June. This whole "piecemeal" approach just needlessly complicates the whole matter. (But then, that is what government bureaucracies do best, eh?)
But they could not have mandated that all stations keep their analog on the air until June. By the time Congress passed the postponement bill, around 200 stations were already all digital. Some stations had and will have analog equipment failure where repairing or replacing the aging equipment would be difficult. If you look at the filings (pleadings, really) late last week from the stations who had to justify their analog shutdown on Feb. 16/17 to the FCC, common reasons were that they were losing the broadcast tower for the analog antenna on the 18th or the analog transmitter had already been sold or the analog equipment is on it's last legs. Besides the legal issues, a blanket rule that all the stations had to keep a analog broadcast was not feasible.

The one benefit to the piecemeal approach is that it has publicized the fact that most of the stations have a digital broadcast. Even just a few weeks ago, I listened to an interview on a news radio station with a "expert" from CNet on the TV transition and the interviewer clearly had no idea that the stations in DC have digital broadcasts. The interviewer thought the "testing" he heard about (which was the stations interrupting the analog broadcast for a 2 minute warning message) was the stations testing out the digital broadcast. The "expert" from CNet did not really correct him on this. Until recently I think a lot of people hearing about this "transition" and getting converter boxes didn't know that most of their local stations have a full power digital broadcast. They were going to hook the box up on Feb 17th.

Now the press and the stations will have to educate the OTA viewers that many stations will be changing their physical broadcast channels and they will have to re-scan and maybe adjust the antenna. I still see posts on-line about how VHF is going away after the "transition". Some people with UHF only antenna in some markets will be in for a surprise today/tomorrow and some more on June 13th.

foxeng

02-17-09, 11:12 AM

DTV Transition
WINK Throws the Switch
By Daisy Whitney, TV Week

In the last two weeks, the CBS station in Fort Myers, Fla. has fielded about 1,500 calls and e-mails from viewers regarding the digital transition that will occur at 12:10 p.m. Eastern time today for WINK-TV.

For TVWeek's comprehensive coverage of the digital television transition, visit the DTV Switch Navigator page.

That’s when CBS affiliate WINK will flip the switch to digital, ending its analog transmission forever. Station executives are betting that the last few weeks of testing and messaging to viewers will make for a smooth transition.

Fort Myers Broadcasting-owned WINK-TV is one of about 400 TV stations around the country sticking to the original digital transition date of Feb. 17. The Florida station will sign off its analog feed about 10 minutes into is noon newscast today, general manager Wayne Simons said.

Congress voted to delay the transition to June 12, but the Federal Communications Commission is allowing about one-quarter of TV stations to flip the switch as planned today.

After receiving its FCC approval to transition on schedule, WINK upped the number of on-air crawls and notices to make sure viewers were prepared, Mr. Simons said. “Once we applied to stay with the regular date, we were required to increase the frequency of crawls,” he said.

The station ran about five minutes of crawls per hour through Sunday, then bumped that to about 10 minutes per hour for the final two days. Because of the increase in messages in the last two weeks, the station received about 750 calls and about 750 e-mails from viewers, said Greg Stetson, programming director for WINK.

Mr. Stetson took about half of those calls himself and sometimes walked viewers through the entire process of setting up the digital converter box. Others contacted the station asking how to tell if a TV set is digital.

Wink has also conducted a number of “soft tests,” removing the analog signal for a minute or two at a time. After the first two-minute test in December, the station received about 35 calls from viewers.

Because of the message saturation in the last two weeks and the handful of tests, Mr. Simons believes the Fort Myers market is ready for the switch today. The market has a high cable penetration with only about 5% of TV viewers relying on over-the-air, he said.

WINK opted to stick to the original date because waiting until June would have placed the transition in the midst of Florida’s hurricane season, a risky proposition. Oddly enough, the station is required to run messages through March 31 on its digital signal about the analog shut-off even though analog-only TV viewers won’t be able to see them after today.

http://www.tvweek.com/news/2009/02/dtv_transition_wink_throws_the.php

wintertime

02-17-09, 11:16 AM

From what I've read, cable and satellite TV companies are receiving many local channels these days via fiber-optic connections, so tonight's fun and games won't affect the way that they provide locals to their customers.

But what about situations where (1) a station is being received OTA and (2) the station is changing frequencies tonight? Won't those companies have to have techs on hand at their headends to retune the receivers for those stations at midnight?

I just saw JTBell's reminder about stations having to get separate permission to switch to their post-transition facilities before June 13th, so perhaps most stations that are switching tonight will be staying on their pre-transition frequencies. But there must be some situations that will meet both of the conditions I outlined above, yes?

At least, I presume that TV distribution companies have directly tunable receivers, and won't have to spend a few minutes doing a rescan to find the stations on their new frequencies as we peasants will. ;)

Patty

narkspud

02-17-09, 11:29 AM

Won't those companies have to have techs on hand at their headends to retune the receivers for those stations at midnight?

Naaah, but I'm sure that when the local signals disappear, they'll have plenty of extra operators at their call centers to tell upset customers that "nobody else has reported any problem."

spokybob

02-17-09, 01:20 PM

KGCW Burlington IA analog went off the air a few minutes ago.

foxeng

02-17-09, 01:23 PM

NEWS
Federal Communications Commission
445 12th Street, S.W.
Washington, D. C. 20554
This is an unofficial announcement of Commission action. Release of the full text of a Commission order constitutes official action.
See MCI v. FCC. 515 F 2d 385 (D.C. Circ 1974).
News Media Information 202 / 418-0500
Internet: http://www.fcc.gov
TTY: 1-888-835-5322
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: NEWS MEDIA CONTACTS:
February 16, 2009 Mark Wigfield, 202-418-0253
Email: mark.wigfield@fcc.gov
Edie Herman, 202-418-2035
Email: edie.herman@fcc.gov
Preparations in High Gear for Stations Going All-Digital This Week
FCC Seeks to Protect Access to Analog News and Emergency Information
Washington, D.C. – With 421 television stations still planning to terminate analog
broadcasts on Tuesday, the Federal Communications Commission, broadcasters and others are
working overtime to prepare consumers for the digital transition – and to try to ensure that
consumers who aren’t ready for the switch will continue to have access to vital television news
and emergency information.
Of the nation’s nearly 1,800 full-power televisions stations, 220 will have terminated
their analog signals before Tuesday and another 421 will terminate their analog signals on
Tuesday before 11:59 pm, for a total of 641 stations, or about 36% of all full-power stations
nationwide. The FCC has dispatched staffers to 72 markets across the nation where the impact is
expected to be the greatest, while broadcasters who are shutting down analog signals intensify
efforts to notify and educate the public.
“This is not just about whether people can watch their favorite reality show,” said Acting
FCC Chairman Michael Copps. “It’s about whether consumers have access to vital emergency
alerts, weather, news and public affairs.”
Finding that the public was not ready for the transition to digital television, Congress
earlier this month delayed the deadline for termination of analog signals from February 17 to
June 12. But Congress also directed the FCC to give broadcasters the flexibility to make the
transition early, including on the original February 17 date.
The FCC is seeking to ensure that even where all or most stations in a market are
terminating analog service, consumers who are unprepared for the switch will continue to have
access to critical local news and emergency information. To accomplish this, the FCC examined
each market in which stations planned to end analog service to try to ensure that at least one
affiliate of the four major networks – ABC, CBS, Fox and NBC – would continue broadcasting
in analog after February 17. Many had such a station, but in those instances in which there
would be no top-four affiliate remaining in a market, the FCC attempted to ensure that analog
local news and emergency information would remain available—generally through what is being
called “enhanced analog nightlight” service. Under “enhanced analog nightlight,” the top-four
affiliates must keep at least one analog signal on the air to provide programming that includes, at
a minimum, local news and emergency information.
“We are trying to make the best of a difficult situation,” Copps said. “While this
staggered transition is confusing and disruptive for some consumers, the confusion and
disruption would have been far worse had we gone ahead with a nationwide transition on
Tuesday.”
“Remember where we were little more than a week ago,” Copps explained. “We
potentially had all 1,800 full-power stations seeking to terminate analog service on February 17.
Then the major network owned-and-operated stations, along with some of the major group
owners, stepped up and declared that they would keep their analog signals on the air. Those
decisions undoubtedly had a restraining effect on the other stations in their markets. Of the
stations that told us they still planned to terminate on February 17, we identified 106 stations in
41 markets as being particularly problematic. Within the last few days, 43 of those stations
reconsidered their decision and will stay on the air with analog service. That reduced the number
of problematic markets from 41 to 20. With respect to those remaining markets, we have
attempted to ensure that analog viewers continue to have access to local news and vital
emergency information. I recount these numbers not to minimize the potential consumer
disruption that is about to occur, but to recognize that the scope is far less than it might have
been.”
While FCC staffers have conducted DTV outreach in every television market in the
country, this week they will specifically target 72 markets where one or more of the top-four
network affiliates are dropping analog broadcasts. In the coming days, staff will visit stores in
those key markets to assess the availability of digital converter boxes, distribute key “how to”
information for consumers making the switch, and assist in DTV walk-in centers where
consumers can get hands-on transition assistance. Outreach continues to be targeted to
consumers most at risk: senior citizens, low income families, people living in rural and tribal
areas, non-English speakers, and the disabled.
The FCC has also boosted staffing in consumer call centers, providing 2,506 information
specialists to answer consumer questions about the transition and an additional 1,759 agents
through industry partners. All calls will be routed through a single number, 1-888-CALLFCC,
and agents will have the ability to refer callers to local contacts for information regarding
particular reception issues.
The Commission has also provided new web resources to help consumers address digital
reception problems. Information and a DTV reception map that allow consumers to check
reception at their own homes are available at http://www.dtv.gov/fixreception.html.
Broadcasters continue to have the most critical role in educating their viewers about the
transition. In addition to extensive on-air efforts, many local stations have engineers and
employees devoting significant time to helping individual viewers resolve their transition
problems.
“We applaud broadcasters who have worked with us—and who have worked together—
as we scramble to best serve the public under this new law,” Copps added. “We also applaud
broadcasters who are continuing to provide analog service through June 12, which is the surest
way to make sure that viewers have time to prepare. And we applaud our FCC volunteers who
have had to be away from their homes and families for extended periods in order to make this
transition as smooth as possible for their fellow citizens,” Copps said.
Attached is a complete list of all full-power stations, with those making the transition on
or before February 17 in bold type.
-FCC-
News about the Federal Communications Commission can also be found
on the Commission’s web site www.fcc.gov.

foxeng

02-17-09, 01:23 PM

KGCW Burlington IA analog went off the air a few minutes ago.

I hope people are rolling video on these stations for posterity.

foxeng

02-17-09, 02:41 PM

DTV Transition
Transition Running Smoothly So Far for Fort Myers’ WINK
Transition Running Smoothly So Far for Fort Myers’ WINK
By Daisy Whitney, TV Week

About an hour into its digital-only life, Fort Myers, Fla., CBS station WINK-TV had received only half a dozen phone calls from viewers about the digital switch today. However, the broadcaster is bracing for more calls during primetime tonight.

Fort Myers Broadcasting-owned WINK was one of about 400 stations to shed its analog signal forever today when it transitioned to digital at 12:14 p.m. ET during the station’s noon newscast.

“It went surprisingly well,” said Greg Stetson, programming director for the station. “The phone calls are equipment-related, people asking, ‘How can you help us tune in our converter box?’”

Mr. Stetson said he hasn’t received any calls yet from viewers who weren’t aware of the transition. That’s reassuring, because it indicates the success of the full-court press the station, the market and the Federal Communications Commission conducted over the last few years and weeks to get the message out.

However, Mr. Stetson is bracing for more calls this evening when the station runs its high-rated Tuesday night primetime lineup, anchored by “NCIS” and “Without a Trace.”

“We don’t know what will happen when people come home to watch ‘Oprah’ or primetime. Tuesday night is one of our biggest nights,” he said. “We are going to have the real test tonight.”

The station is relying on regular staffers, including the promotions director, the production manager and the station’s engineers, to field calls and help viewers.

When viewers call with equipment problems, the key is to walk them through the specifics of their make and model or direct them to how to obtain a digital converter box, Mr. Stetson said.

Fort Myers was well positioned for the switchover, with only about 5% of the market relying solely on over-the-air broadcasts. Mr. Stetson estimates the stations in Fort Myers have reached most of those consumers with information about the changeover.

But as with any new technology, he cautioned, there will be holdouts. “In any situation you won’t have 100% participation when something new starts. It will take a little while for everyone to get on the same page,” he said.

He said the station did not lose any signal coverage during the switch. “Our digital signal is the same as our analog for distance and power,” he said.

http://www.tvweek.com/news/2009/02/transition_running_smoothly_so.php

andytiedye

02-17-09, 03:10 PM

they will have to re-scan and maybe adjust the antenna.

We have to adjust our antenna about 75 feet straight up.

foxeng

02-17-09, 05:09 PM

DTV Transition
DTV Switchover on Track as Midnight Approaches

By Andrew Krukowski , TV Week

General managers are tightening the bolts and preparing for the reaction to their digital transitions as a midnight DTV deadline looms for 421 stations.

The Federal Communications Commission announced over the weekend that the original list of 368 stations approved to transition before June 12 had grown to 421. That came after a review of local markets that worked out an agreement to keep some stations in analog in order for viewers to have access to emergency broadcasts and news.

For TVWeek's comprehensive coverage of the digital television transition, visit the DTV Switch Navigator page.

The digital transition today will set the stage for June 12, as the rest of the country switches over from analog television transmission to digital. A smooth transition today could mean an even smoother move in June, while a difficult changeover could leave general managers concerned about their markets this summer.

Some stations, such as WINK-TV in Fort Myers, Fla., have already thrown the switch, to little public outcry. WINK said it received only a half-dozen calls within the first hour of digital-only broadcasting after it shut off its analog signal at 12:10 p.m. EST.

However, a number of stations are waiting until the last possible moment, 11:59 p.m. tonight, to shut off their analog transmitters.

CBS affiliate WCAX-TV in Burlington, Vt., will make the transition tonight. The station has to deal with the additional difficulty of switching its channel position, according to President and General Manager Peter Martin.

Currently running its digital signal on channel 53, WCAX will switch over to channel 22 around 4 a.m. EST.

At that time, WCAX’s analog signal will switch over to 60 days of “enhanced night-light service,” with news and a repeating broadcast that will inform viewers why they are seeing the message as opposed to standard programming and how to correct that.

Mr. Martin said he’s received about 150 calls in the past week regarding the digital transition. Burlington-Plattsburgh is the 92nd largest market in the country, with 331,000 television viewing households.

He said he’s expecting the calls to start rolling in tomorrow around 7 a.m., as viewers wake up not to CBS’ “The Early Show,” but to the night-light broadcast. Overall, he said, he’s expecting a smooth transition tomorrow, with a caveat.

“We are dealing with the innate perversity of inanimate objects,” he said. WCAX is making the leap to digital early, as transmitter technicians were scheduled to perform work on the antennas tonight.

Rescheduling the work, Mr. Martin said, would not guarantee the fixes would get done in time for June 12.

For the most part, Mr. Martin is positive that the technical changes plus viewer awareness will equal a relatively problem-free transition.

“It looks like it’s going to go OK,” he said. “Call me tomorrow at this time, and I might have an entirely different view.”

(Daisy Whitney and Ira Teinowitz contributed to this report.)

http://www.tvweek.com/news/2009/02/dtv_switchover_seems_to_be_run.php

HIPAR

02-17-09, 06:23 PM

They did such a good job explaining everything:

'If you're having problems picking up WINK-TV using your converter box, here are some ways to troubleshoot the problem.

First, know that your converter box needs to be plugged into your TV and plugged into the outlet.

No matter if you have a digital television set, or if you have a converter box, if you own a pair of rabbit ears - keep them! If you plan to ever get a television signal over the air you'll need them! Most people don't realize, just like with your analog set, you'll need an antenna. Likely, you won't have to buy one because you probably already have one'.

That's why their transition is so trouble free. :p

--- CHAS

foxeng

02-17-09, 06:39 PM

You be surprised how many people think by just connecting the converter box WITHOUT an antenna is all they need to do. It was funny the first 20 or so calls. It isn't funny any more.

Trip in VA

02-17-09, 06:50 PM

You be surprised how many people think by just connecting the converter box WITHOUT an antenna is all they need to do. It was funny the first 20 or so calls. It isn't funny any more.

I'm not surprised. That's why I wrote my front page newspaper article a few months ago, because I figured out that this was widespread.

- Trip

sebenste

02-17-09, 07:55 PM

Stanislav

02-17-09, 08:32 PM

FWIW, local media in this market (Orlando-Daytona Beach) concurs with the FCC list on three local stations ending analog tonight:

WMFE (analog 24, DTV 23) (PBS)
WVEN (analog 26, DTV 49) (Univision)
WRDQ (analog 27, temp DTV 14, final DTV 27) (Independent)

However, they did not mention WTGL (analog 45, DTV 46) which the FCC list shows as also ending analog tonight. Will they or won't they?

I'm still confused by WRDQ being listed as a "nightlight" station. The local media says they are shutting down analog, period, with no mention of nightlighting. The only way they could nightlight on 27 is to keep their DTV on 14 for now. If that is the case, it seems a waste to keep two xmtrs running for just a nightlight when there are several locals remaining on analog until June. (And I find it hard to believe that they would shut down the analog xmtr now only to have to fire it back up in 4 months to nightlight after June 12th.) Wasn't the whole point of nightlighting to keep at least one analog on in each market to both remind "stragglers" among viewers of the need to go digital, and to broadcast any emergency information as need arises? I suppose I'll find out in the morning (too old to wait up 'til Midnight to see what happens).

BTW, the stations above are in addition to 3 others that have already ended analog:

WACX (former analog 55, DTV 40) (Religious) (Switched quite some time ago)
WDSC (former analog 15, DTV 33) (PBS) (Switched early due to xmtr failure)
WBCC (former analog 68, DTV 30) (PBS) (Switched early due to xmtr failure)
(The latter shown by the FCC as ending analog tonight, but their analog has been dark for some time already.)

Left churning out NTSC signals for awhile longer are WESH, WKMG, WFTV, WKCF, WOFL, WOTF, WHLV (whose DTV signal I have never seen even a hint of just 17 miles from the xmtr -- they must still be on their old flea-power temporary facilities), WOPX, and WRBW. (And maybe WTGL...see above.)

UPDATE: Well, for the hell of it, I hooked up a loop to the RF input on my one OTA set (which I haven't used to view analog TV in nearly a year now). WMFE, WRDQ, and WTGL are all running crawls. (Can't get WVEN's analog signal here, so can't check them.) WRDQ's simply says they are ending analog -- no mention of nightlighting or changing the DTV channel, so it will be morning before I can confirm what they are doing.

retromzc

02-17-09, 08:36 PM

Gilbert, late this afternoon I swung my antenna (on a 40 foot tower) northwest toward Rockford (from Plano) and got a very weak signal for WREX-DT 13. It popped in for a few seconds at a time but not watchable. I'd of thought at 12.1 kw it would have come in with no problem, but that is not the case. WTVO-DT came in quite well. No sign of either WIFR-DT or WQRF-DT.

ChrisC47

02-17-09, 10:13 PM

... but I have no VHF antennas pointed northwest, where they are. I have one pointed east, one pointed south. Now I need one pointed north-northwest.

Aren't you going to have nulls like crazy if you combine antennas at the same band like that?

mrvideo

02-17-09, 10:19 PM

Aren't you going to have nulls like crazy if you combine antennas at the same band like that?

Ya, I would have thought that you'd be better off putting the antenna on a rotor.

foxeng

02-17-09, 10:28 PM

DTV Transition
Minnesota stations pull the plug on analog TV
It's part of the transition to all-digital television. All broadcasters will do the same by June 12.
By RANDY A. SALAS, Star Tribune - February 17, 2009 - 8:26 PM

The CW in the Twin Cities and Lakeland Public Television in the Bemidji-Brainerd area were among several Minnesota TV stations that ended their analog broadcasts Tuesday, nearly four months in advance of the government-mandated switch to all-digital television.

Viewers who use older TV sets with over-the-air antennas can no longer watch those channels without a converter box.

That represents nearly 6 percent of households in the Twin Cities viewing area, which covers 59 Minnesota counties and nine Wisconsin counties, according to a recent estimate by the Nielsen Co. Those viewers will lose all TV programming if they don't take action by June 12, the deadline for other stations to make the switch.

Homes with cable and satellite service as well as those with newer TVs with digital tuners are not affected.

Lakeland Public Television (KAWE/KAWB, Channel 22 in some parts of the Twin Cities) received just a few negative calls after its analog shutdown, general manager Bill Sanford said.

More than 400 stations nationwide stopped their analog broadcasts Tuesday, the original date for the switch, despite Congress' recent move to push the deadline back to June 12.

For Lakeland, continuing analog broadcasts through June would have cost the small operator $25,000, Sanford said.

"Our budget's not looking good as it is," he said. "I probably would have had to lay off someone in the news department to make up for that."

The analog transmitter that Lakeland shut down in the Brainerd area also was more than 20 years old and required frequent maintenance, he said.

The CW Twin Cities (WUCW, Channel 23) referred a reporter to its Maryland-based parent, Sinclair Broadcasting, which did not return a call for comment.

OTHER EARLY SWITCHERS

These other Minnesota stations went all-digital Tuesday, according to the Associated Press: WDIO-TV (ABC), WIRT (ABC) and KBJR-TV (NBC) in Duluth-Superior; KWCM (PBS) in Appleton; KTTC (NBC) and KXLT-TV (Fox) in the Rochester-Mason City-Austin area; and KSMN (PBS) in Worthington (Sioux Falls, S.D., market). These stations made the switch before Tuesday, according to the AP: Fox affiliates KQDS in Duluth, KVRR in Fargo-Moorhead and KBRR in Thief River Falls, and NBC affiliate KRII in Chisholm.

Viewers who want more information about the transition or the status of the government voucher program for converter boxes can call 1-888-388-2009 or go to www.dtv2009.gov.

http://www.startribune.com/entertainment/tv/39755387.html

Piggie

02-17-09, 10:43 PM

I finally figured out the real reason for the delay. To spread out the turn offs. If all 1800 or so stations turned off analog at once, it would take down the entire national electrical grid in huge reverse EMF pulse. lol...

-------

On a serious note, this situation of most markets losing one or two major 4 networks might be what it takes for people to drag out their converter boxes.

Which might make the next survey a lot more accurate as to who actually owns digital ready equipment.

Lets hope.

Trip in VA

02-18-09, 12:17 AM

*headdesk*

Why, WDTV, why?

- Trip

PinkSplice

02-18-09, 12:45 AM

They flash-cutted to channel 13 from channel 54. They are now running 12.1 kw. I can't receive them anymore 30 miles away from the station, but I have no VHF antennas pointed northwest, where they are. I have one pointed east, one pointed south. Now I need one pointed north-northwest. 12 kw on channel 13 just doesn't penetrate attics like 100+ kw of UHF does!

Gilbert, here in STL I have two antenna's (a 4228, and a VU-90) pointed at WSIU-8's VHF High DT. They are presently at 33 KW ERP, 217 meters HAAT, at 112 KM/70 statute miles. Previously, both on analog, and at 1 MW ERP on RF 40, they were watchable.

Now, I get one-bar flickers, with no lock. I don't think it's the Zenith DTT 901. :)

WSIU had been planning to implement 53 KW ERP, but is holding off until 12 JUN.

When do all the VHF-Highs go to 100 KW? :)

Edit: The 4228 and VU-90 are NOT on a combiner; they feed separate sets. So there. Nyaaah.

Falcon_77

02-18-09, 12:51 AM

*headdesk*

Why, WDTV, why?

- Trip

What are they up to now? I don't see anything new.

PinkSplice

02-18-09, 12:55 AM

“Remember where we were little more than a week ago,” Copps explained. “We
potentially had all 1,800 full-power stations seeking to terminate analog service on February 17.
Then the major network owned-and-operated stations, along with some of the major group
owners, stepped up and declared that they would keep their analog signals on the air. Those
decisions undoubtedly had a restraining effect on the other stations in their markets. Of the
stations that told us they still planned to terminate on February 17, we identified 106 stations in
41 markets as being particularly problematic. Within the last few days, 43 of those stations
reconsidered their decision and will stay on the air with analog service. That reduced the number
of problematic markets from 41 to 20. With respect to those remaining markets, we have
attempted to ensure that analog viewers continue to have access to local news and vital
emergency information. I recount these numbers not to minimize the potential consumer
disruption that is about to occur, but to recognize that the scope is far less than it might have
been.”

I haven't encountered that kind of doublespeak since I left the military. :)

Falcon_77

02-18-09, 12:55 AM

When do all the VHF-Highs go to 100 KW? :)

Not soon enough I'm sure, but with the band being so congested, I don't know how many will be able to. Check out this tale of woe from KLRN (PBS San Antonio).

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1296396&Service=TV&Form_id=387&Facility_id=749

SINCE THE BEGINNING OF 2007, KLRN HAS RECEIVED HUNDREDS OF E-MAIL COMMENTS CONCERNING RECEPTION OF ITS DTV SERVICE. THE COMMON MESSAGE IS 'WE JUST GOT A DIGITAL TV RECEIVER AND WE GET ALL THE LOCAL COMMERCIAL DTV STATIONS OFF AIR, BUT CAN'T RECEIVE A DIGITAL SIGNAL FROM KLRN. WHY IS THAT?' IN RESPONSE WE EXPLAIN THAT ALL THE LOCAL COMMERCIAL DTV STATIONS OPERATE IN THE UHF BAND AND KLRN-DT IS THE ONLY VHF DTV STATION IN THE SAN ANTONIO MARKET. WE NOTE THAT MANY OF THE NEW COMPACT 'HDTV' ANTENNAS EITHER ARE UHF-ONLY ANTENNAS OR THEY HAVE VERY POOR PERFORMANCE IN THE VHF BAND, AND WE ADVISE THAT THOUGH WE ARE OPERATING AT THE MAXIMUM BROADCAST POWER ASSIGNED BY THE FCC, OUR POWER LEVEL IS SIGNIFICANTLY LOWER THAN THAT OF THE COMMERCIAL UHF DTV STATIONS.

afiggatt

02-18-09, 12:57 AM

Gilbert, here in STL I have two antenna's (a 4228, and a VU-90) pointed at WSIU-8's VHF High DT. They are presently at 33 KW ERP, 217 meters HAAT, at 112 KM/70 statute miles. Previously, both on analog, and at 1 MW ERP on RF 40, they were watchable.
Have you checked with the station to see if they are at their full alloted power yet? The station might be running temporarily at reduced power while they get the transmitter racks fired up.

I could get a DT VHF 12 station (WWPX-DT) operating at 23 kW at 48 miles off the backside of a CM 4221 4 bay. I now get WWPXW-DT from the back end of a Winegard Ya-6713 upper VHF antenna aimed in the opposite direction at DC to be ready for what was to be the great Feb. 17 shutdown and channel shuffle.

Trip in VA

02-18-09, 01:05 AM

What are they up to now? I don't see anything new.

Go look at their amended application for maximization. Note the application for a DT-02 "fill-in" translator. Then proceed to impact your desk with your head as I did.

- Trip

Falcon_77

02-18-09, 01:16 AM

Go look at their amended application for maximization. Note the application for a DT-02 "fill-in" translator. Then proceed to impact your desk with your head as I did.

- Trip

Considering the problems full power stations have had with Low-VHF, I don't see how this is going to be effective.

Another thought I had re DTV translators. If they all map to the same virtual channel, how will the receive decide which to use if there are multiple signals available? Are they smart enough to take the strongest/most reliable?

PinkSplice

02-18-09, 01:43 AM

Have you checked with the station to see if they are at their full alloted power yet? The station might be running temporarily at reduced power while they get the transmitter racks fired up.

I could get a DT VHF 12 station (WWPX-DT) operating at 23 kW at 48 miles off the backside of a CM 4221 4 bay. I now get WWPXW-DT from the back end of a Winegard Ya-6713 upper VHF antenna aimed in the opposite direction at DC to be ready for what was to be the great Feb. 17 shutdown and channel shuffle.

As you can see from my original post (which you quoted), they are now at 33 KW ERP. They will be going to 53 KW ERP 12 JUN. Same tower in Tamaroa IL, same HAAT. Analog was 316 KW ERP (same tower and ant- reusing the original VHF). The transition DTV was 1 MW ERP, and lower on the same tower with a side mount.

Prior to lighting up DTV-8, both were reliable.

I cannot use an amp, since I have something like 6 MW of front-end overload running less than three miles from me. :) DTV DX'ing is a bit of a challenge... :)

What's really funny is that the original CP for WSIU-DT was for 14 KW ERP.

You might be able to pick it up. :)

PinkSplice

02-18-09, 01:49 AM

KDNL, ABC, Sinclair, is nightlighting on their analog RF 30 a continuous DTV infomercial for the next two weeks. The infomercial from the NAB runs once in English, and once in Spanish, rotated about every 15 min.

Perhaps this is what we can expect until the Fourth Of July?:)

Falcon_77

02-18-09, 02:34 AM

I finally got to see my first analog end. KGTV out of San Diego. Though the picture quality was very poor, the sound was ok. The last thing I heard was, "and then he's going to push the off..." and then it went to snow. I recorded a video of the occasion. It is probably the last time I will ever receive KGTV here. I can't see 21kW on 10 having a chance, considering how very weak analog was.

Larry Kenney

02-18-09, 03:57 AM

wintertime

02-18-09, 04:16 AM

I was able to watch three of the six SF Bay Area stations end their analog programming tonight. After an ID and a short DTV PSA, KCNS 38 analog went to snow at midnight. KOFY 20 and KICU 36 analog both started running the NAB DTV post transition PSA for Nightline Service at midnight.
Larry, did you notice that both KOFY and KICU screwed up the transition? :) KICU had something aligned wrong, so the bottom half of the video was at the top of the screen, and top half at the bottom, with a black bar in between. (Is that called "bad racking"? I was a radio engineer. :) ) And KOFY ran the PSA's audio for a minute or so while the video of an infomercial was still running.

I checked my Dish Network reception and all of the channels that dropped analog service have regular programming airing on their channels from the satellite, so the appropriate changes were made.
I set one VCR each to KICU on DirecTV and Comcast, because it was the only station I could get that was potentially changing frequencies tonight. However, they're apparently waiting until June to do that, so there was no frequency change for Comcast or DirecTV to stumble on. If they even get KICU's digital signal OTA; I've read that most SF stations are feeding cable and satellite systems with fiber these days. Do you have more info on that?

Patty

Stanislav

02-18-09, 06:02 AM

Not soon enough I'm sure, but with the band being so congested, I don't know how many will be able to. Check out this tale of woe from KLRN (PBS San Antonio).

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1296396&Service=TV&Form_id=387&Facility_id=749

They should have gone to all UHF like the U.K. did a couple of decades ago. Plenty of room with digital signals to accommodate all the existing stations and then some, even in the reduced (14-51) band. Really simplifies antenna design.

Same thing as with WLRN here in Orlando with WESH being the only VHF DTV. I've already heard many tales of "early adopters" having problems picking them up. It will probably be a real headache for them when they finally do pull the plug on analog. 95% of the so-called "DTV ready" antennas being hawked misleadingly by manufacturers are indeed UHF-only. Typical consumers don't even understand where the DTV signals are being transmitted because of the absurd "remapping" bit. The whole idea of "branding" your station with a channel number you no longer use almost smacks of false advertising.

Stanislav

02-18-09, 06:06 AM

As you can see from my original post (which you quoted), they are now at 33 KW ERP. They will be going to 53 KW ERP 12 JUN. Same tower in Tamaroa IL, same HAAT. Analog was 316 KW ERP (same tower and ant- reusing the original VHF). The transition DTV was 1 MW ERP, and lower on the same tower with a side mount.

Prior to lighting up DTV-8, both were reliable.

I cannot use an amp, since I have something like 6 MW of front-end overload running less than three miles from me. :) DTV DX'ing is a bit of a challenge... :)

What's really funny is that the original CP for WSIU-DT was for 14 KW ERP.

You might be able to pick it up. :)

I bet over the next few months (and even more so after June 12th), you start to see a lot more applications for fill-in translators. On paper, the DTV signals are supposed to closely replicate the old analog coverage areas -- in real life, the "cliff effect" of DTV signals renders reception hit or miss in many pockets that got reliable, if snowy or occasionally fading, analog reception.

Stanislav

02-18-09, 06:17 AM

foxeng

02-18-09, 07:31 AM

foxeng

02-18-09, 07:32 AM

I haven't encountered that kind of doublespeak since I left the military. :)

Copps is a master politician.

foxeng

02-18-09, 07:38 AM

In Greensboro, NC, Sinclair's WXLV and WMYV are both night lighting with the NAB English/Spanish DTV Information. Both stations just abruptly switched from regular programing (Nightline on WXLV and a syndicated program on WMYV) to it at midnight. Both had been running almost continuous crawls on analog only for most of the night. WXLV and WMYV are operating post transition facilities.

Raleigh market Sinclair sister stations, WLFL and WRDC also started night lighting at midnight as well. WLFL's digital is out of core and will use WRDC's in core digital and WRDC will move back to their analog channel. The channel switch part hasn't happened yet. Guess that will happen when both stations stop night lighting.

TiVoFishMan

02-18-09, 08:57 AM

Another thought I had re DTV translators. If they all map to the same virtual channel, how will the receive decide which to use if there are multiple signals available? Are they smart enough to take the strongest/most reliable?

That depends on the receiver.

I got a unique chance to look at what happens with duplicate virtual channels (actually having the exact same content) a few months ago.

Due to all the Katrina damage. WGNO-DT and WNOL-DT were temporarily sub-channels on WPXL's transmitter, while WDSU-DT was a subchannel on WHNO's transmitter.

Simultaneously, WNOL's digital transmitter and WDSU's digital transmitter were brought on line.

For awhile (about a week), WGNO-DT and WNOL-DT were simultaneously carried on WNOL's and WPXL's transmitter (before being taken off WPXL's). WDSU-DT was simultaneously carried on WDSU's and WHNO's transmitter (then taken off WHNO's).

While this was going on, I did a re-scan on two televisions. One of them, a 47" Visio, happily mapped in two each of 6-1 (WDSU), 26-1 (WGNO), and 38-1 (WNOL). The other TV, a 32" Westinghouse, would drop each channel when it found the second one. If the one that remained wasn't the one you "wanted", you could manually scan the RF frequency containing the one you wanted. That would cause it to drop the undesired one and replace it with the one it just found in the manual scan. There was no way to force the Westinghouse TV to have two channels with the same virtual channel number in the map simultaneously.

baker60

02-18-09, 10:05 AM

They should have gone to all UHF like the U.K. did a couple of decades ago. Plenty of room with digital signals to accommodate all the existing stations and then some, even in the reduced (14-51) band. Really simplifies antenna design.

Same thing as with WLRN here in Orlando with WESH being the only VHF DTV. I've already heard many tales of "early adopters" having problems picking them up. It will probably be a real headache for them when they finally do pull the plug on analog. 95% of the so-called "DTV ready" antennas being hawked misleadingly by manufacturers are indeed UHF-only. Typical consumers don't even understand where the DTV signals are being transmitted because of the absurd "remapping" bit. The whole idea of "branding" your station with a channel number you no longer use almost smacks of false advertising.

I agree, most people who ask me about the "new DTV" don't understand when I try to explain high VHF, UHF and remapping. Why not put them all on UHF and let them use their "real channel number"?

foxeng

02-18-09, 10:11 AM

DTV Transition
NAB Says DTV Calls Aren't Flooding Switchboards
Early signs on stations that dropped analog are encouraging
By John Eggerton , Broadcasting & Cable 2/18/2009 7:58:27 AM MT

The National Association of Broadcasters says its early read on stations that pulled the plug on analog earlier in the day Tuesday (Feb. 17) was encouraging.

According to Jonathan Collegio, NAB's VP for the DTV switch and point person for DTV education, there were relatively few viewer calls in markets in Virginia, Illinois and Kansas that had made the switch early enough for the association to get a read on them.

In two Virginia markets, for example, there had only been 150 calls by the time the NAB put out an e-mail at 9:45 Tuesday night. Stations in Rockford, Ill., had received 200 calls, while Topeka stations had received about 300 calls.

NAB said stations were able to resolve most of the problems over the phone. "We are pleased that thus far call volume appears relatively low in markets where stations switched earlier in the day," said Collegio in a statement. "Awareness of the transition is saturated in every market nationwide as a result of the broadcast industry's $1.2 billion consumer education campaign," he said, a campaign for which he was the point person at the NAB.

A quick check Wednesday morning with an aide to a Democratic senator concerned about the transition suggested that early read was still holding. "We haven't gotten any calls" to our office, he said. "Nobody is burning down the switchboard and saying they don't have their television...yet."

The FCC allowed 421 stations to pull the plug on analog Feb. 17, with 220 having already done so and the rest allowed to pull the plug between March 14 and June 12, the current, final hard date for all but so-called "nightlight" analog broadcasts of emergency and DTV transition information.

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/174406-NAB_Says_DTV_Calls_Aren_t_Flooding_Switchboards.php

foxeng

02-18-09, 10:13 AM

They should have gone to all UHF like the U.K. did a couple of decades ago. Plenty of room with digital signals to accommodate all the existing stations and then some, even in the reduced (14-51) band. Really simplifies antenna design.

Actually there was not enough spectrum. The FCC put out 3 sets of band plans until they got one that all the stations fit in. The first one was channels 14-69. The second was 7-51 and the final was 2-51.

joblo

02-18-09, 11:11 AM

Actually there was not enough spectrum. The FCC put out 3 sets of band plans until they got one that all the stations fit in. The first one was channels 14-69. The second was 7-51 and the final was 2-51.
Oh come on. Of course all the stations could fit on 14-69, or even 14-63.

The stations didn't want that plan, because they didn't want to pay the transmitter bills, they liked VHF propagation, they wanted their nice low channel numbers, blah, blah, blah...

Basically, the stations think the viewers should pay the freight and deal with the inconvenience, which is why I don't have a lot of sympathy for broadcasters when they whine...

jtbell

02-18-09, 11:12 AM

In Greensboro, NC, Sinclair's WXLV and WMYV are both night lighting with the NAB English/Spanish DTV Information. Both stations just abruptly switched from regular programing (Nightline on WXLV and a syndicated program on WMYV) to it at midnight.

Same with Sinclair's WMYA-40 in the Greenville SC market. The switch took place right after the end of "That '70s Show," a few seconds into a commercial.

Media General's WYCW-62 is running a loop about DTV and installing converter boxes which I think comes from C/Net. It includes a short cut-in featuring Ron Peeler, WYCW's chief engineer. I wasn't expecting this because WYCW hadn't filed to operate nightlight service. They started running the loop early, sometime between about 10:45 and 11:35 PM.

Only the South Carolina ETV stations actually shut off analog. They ran their usual midnight station-ID sequence which lists all the stations, one after the other, then a brief announcement that this was the end of analog service, with thanks to the people who had kept it running all these years, then a retro-style test pattern card which faded into blackness, followed by the actual signal cutoff and snow.

Down in Augusta GA, three of the major network stations were to shut off analog last night. I could just barely get a picture from them, so I checked around 12:30 AM. WJBF-6 (ABC) and WRDW-12 (CBS) were gone, but WAGT-26 (NBC) was still going, presumably so as not to cut off Jay Leno. I didn't wait to see when they actually shut off.

TiVoFishMan

02-18-09, 11:16 AM

joblo

02-18-09, 11:25 AM

...
In two Virginia markets, for example, there had only been 150 calls
...
http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/174406-NAB_Says_DTV_Calls_Aren_t_Flooding_Switchboards.php
Actually, 150 calls in Harrisonburg and Charlottesville strikes me as a lot... those are very small markets.

narkspud

02-18-09, 11:50 AM

Oh come on. Of course all the stations could fit on 14-69, or even 14-63.

Take a gander at the LA, San Diego, Riverside, and Santa Barbara markets as a group, and explain how that would work. Keep in mind that they're using several of the low-UHFs for emergency communications, and that Mexican stations also need to be protected.

adler187

02-18-09, 11:51 AM

Some of those shutdowns seem pretty cool, with the test patterns and reminiscing. Much better than the shutdowns around here. On Monday, when WEAU went off the air, they did their 12pm news coverage, which was 15 minutes of news and another 15 minutes of DTV info with an interview with the station engineer. Then the news ended, went to black for half a minute, then snow. WKBT was similar, but instead of going to black, they aired a few commercials first, then after the third one was done, it went abruptly to snow. I have to say though, KTTC's shutdown was pretty cool. They went out to the transmitter site with the engineer and filmed him shutting down analog as it happened, countdown and everything. "3-2-1..." *snow*

jhe

02-18-09, 11:56 AM

Oh come on. Of course all the stations could fit on 14-69, or even 14-63.

The stations didn't want that plan, because they didn't want to pay the transmitter bills, they liked VHF propagation, they wanted their nice low channel numbers, blah, blah, blah...

Basically, the stations think the viewers should pay the freight and deal with the inconvenience, which is why I don't have a lot of sympathy for broadcasters when they whine...

It isn't just the stations wanting VHF! I see many places in the country that used to get 4 or 5 channels on analog that now will get one digital channel maybe.

In my own area I have lost several stations due to them switching to UHF and with the Feb 17 shutdown I just got a major one back that had been on 57 and went back to their old analog channel 11. When you live over 50 miles from the stations this makes a very big difference. I wish they were all on VHF.

justalurker

02-18-09, 12:16 PM

Actually there was not enough spectrum. The FCC put out 3 sets of band plans until they got one that all the stations fit in. The first one was channels 14-69. The second was 7-51 and the final was 2-51.What fits in 2-51 would fit into 14-69 (or less) with one caveat:
Freeing up 52+ was the goal.

The band plan wasn't chosen to give stations the best frequencies, it was chosen to make the most money out of selling off 52+. Every channel above 51 that remains TV is another 6 mHz that couldn't be sold for other use.

It would be interesting to see if 14-51 or 7-51 would work. I expect 7-51 would due to the low number of channels staying on 2-6, but we'd have to look at the major markets and see what is available in UHF.

Dr Touchtone

02-18-09, 12:45 PM

Am curious....how many TV2s are no longer on analog as of yesterday??? I was wondering how many switched to digital (and a different channel)...

Trip in VA

02-18-09, 12:47 PM

I expect 7-51 would due to the low number of channels staying on 2-6, but we'd have to look at the major markets and see what is available in UHF.

I've already looked at it. It's completely doable.

- Trip

SnellKrell

02-18-09, 12:50 PM

I propose Trip for new FCC Chairman!

HIPAR

02-18-09, 01:07 PM

I've already looked at it. It's completely doable.

- Trip

I'd think the major complication would be the unavailability of channels 14-20 (T Band) because they are in use by land mobile in many populated areas.

--- CHAS

Dr Touchtone

02-18-09, 01:18 PM

I'd think the major complication would be the unavailability of channels 14-20 (T Band) because they are in use by land mobile in many populated areas.

--- CHAS

With narrowbanding on 450-470 and VHF LMR (if the FCC would redo the band and set up a standard offset for repeaters there), I think T-band could be eliminated.

Inundated

02-18-09, 01:18 PM

I'd think the major complication would be the unavailability of channels 14-20 (T Band) because they are in use by land mobile in many populated areas.

I'd like to see that in reality...as far as which of these channels are occupied by that service in which markets.

In Northeast Ohio, we have analog 17 and 19, digital 15 and soon to be digital 17 with no problem that I know of. I wonder how the band spreads market to market.

joblo

02-18-09, 01:23 PM

Take a gander at the LA, San Diego, Riverside, and Santa Barbara markets as a group, and explain how that would work. Keep in mind that they're using several of the low-UHFs for emergency communications, and that Mexican stations also need to be protected.
Seriously?!?

Last I checked, SoCal has no transition DT on VHF, so squeezing into UHF has already been done. (There was an early proposal to put KABC-DT on 8; it didn’t fly.)

Take away all the analog UHFs, of which SoCal has many, and I don’t think clearing out at least the top six UHFs would be much of a problem.

The band plan wasn't chosen to give stations the best frequencies, it was chosen to make the most money out of selling off 52+. Every channel above 51 that remains TV is another 6 mHz that couldn't be sold for other use.
And they couldn’t have sold 2-13 instead?

There would have been no market for those great channels with their excellent propagation and lower transmission costs?

Trip in VA

02-18-09, 01:24 PM

I propose Trip for new FCC Chairman!

:D I would gladly accept such a post!

I'd think the major complication would be the unavailability of channels 14-20 (T Band) because they are in use by land mobile in many populated areas.

--- CHAS

It's really not an issue in most places. I managed to fit all the full-service stations just fine while respecting those limits.

I'd like to see that in reality...as far as which of these channels are occupied by that service in which markets.

In Northeast Ohio, we have analog 17 and 19, digital 15 and soon to be digital 17 with no problem that I know of. I wonder how the band spreads market to market.

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2007/octqtr/47cfr73.623.htm

About half-way down the list are reservations. I'm aware of the seeming conflict with WKBD-DT and WEWS-DT both being where they are, and don't know why it's like that.

- Trip

Trip in VA

02-18-09, 01:25 PM

Seriously?!?

Last I checked, SoCal has no transition DT on VHF, so squeezing into UHF has already been done. (There was an early proposal to put KABC-DT on 8; it didn’t fly.)

The stations are also horribly short-spaced all over. There isn't room for all of them to be on UHF.

And they couldn’t have sold 2-13 instead?

There would have been no market for those great channels with their excellent propagation and lower transmission costs?

Unless you want a 6 foot antenna on your cell phone, those channels aren't an option.

- Trip

joblo

02-18-09, 01:26 PM

I'd like to see that in reality...as far as which of these channels are occupied by that service in which markets.

In Northeast Ohio, we have analog 17 and 19, digital 15 and soon to be digital 17 with no problem that I know of. I wonder how the band spreads market to market.
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=&call=&arn=&city=&chan=&cha2=69&serv=LM&type=0&facid=&list=2&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&size=9

joblo

02-18-09, 01:32 PM

The stations are also horribly short-spaced all over. There isn't room for all of them to be on UHF.
Ok, what’s wrong with this argument?

UHF doesn’t propagate as far, separation distances are less on UHF, so replacing a slice of VHF spectrum with a slice of UHF would worsen short-spacing how?

Unless you want a 6 foot antenna on your cell phone, those channels aren't an option.
But, but, but…

The propagation is so much better!! :rolleyes: ;) :rolleyes:

Scooper

02-18-09, 01:32 PM

I propose Trip for new FCC Chairman!

We don't want to punish him that way :D !!

Piggie

02-18-09, 01:34 PM

Not soon enough I'm sure, but with the band being so congested, I don't know how many will be able to. Check out this tale of woe from KLRN (PBS San Antonio).

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1296396&Service=TV&Form_id=387&Facility_id=749

This is my fear in my area also, that some LP nearby or high power Channel 9 will not allow our 4.9KW WNBW to ever in a million years raise it's power. Currently they are strapped for cash but once they get going it may be too late to ask for a power increase.

What a mess. In attempts to reduce co-channel at first the FCC said you don't need that much power on high band digital. Those that have been keeping track know that is now so. But then they assigned distances based on their poor power estimates, leaving many stations not able to raise power due to co-channel.

My observations is a UHF can triple their power and not extend their real world (not the silly FCC maps) very much but saturate their desired area better. Where as high band, when increasing power, may not really extend their coverage much, but will provide interference to co-channel stations. Meaning it doesn't seem to take much co-channel signal to cause big problems in the signal to noise category, where in analog it might cause mild herring bone.

Wonderful.

Trip in VA

02-18-09, 01:38 PM

Ok, what’s wrong with this argument?

UHF doesn’t propagate as far, separation distances are less on UHF, so replacing a slice of VHF spectrum with a slice of UHF would worsen short-spacing how?

You said the squeezing them all into UHF has already been done. I took that to mean 14-51, but perhaps you meant 14-some other number.

But, but, but…

The propagation is so much better!! :rolleyes: ;) :rolleyes:

It is better if you have the correct antenna. It's much easier to put up a large antenna on a fixed structure like a house than to carry one in your pocket.

We don't want to punish him that way :D !!

I'd be in charge, it wouldn't be punishment! :D

- Trip

joblo

02-18-09, 01:50 PM

You said the squeezing them all into UHF has already been done. I took that to mean 14-51, but perhaps you meant 14-some other number.
I was responding to narkspud, who was responding to my claim that all stations could be on 14-69 or 14-63 instead of 2-51.

Inundated

02-18-09, 01:58 PM

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=&call=&arn=&city=&chan=&cha2=69&serv=LM&type=0&facid=&list=2&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&size=9

About half-way down the list are reservations. I'm aware of the seeming conflict with WKBD-DT and WEWS-DT both being where they are, and don't know why it's like that.

Thanks. That's the same as in the document Trip passed along - 14 and 15 are marked as taken in Cleveland. Yet, for whatever reason (as Trip noted) WEWS-DT is on 15, and is staying there. There must have been an agreement somewhere.

Unless you want a 6 foot antenna on your cell phone, those channels aren't an option.

Quote of the day!

Actually, I've heard that some stations purposely went with UHF where possible...for just that reason, the future mobile/ancilliary use of the UHF spectrum. (It's also one reason Qualcomm is camping out on 55.)

justalurker

02-18-09, 02:42 PM

And they couldn’t have sold 2-13 instead?

There would have been no market for those great channels with their excellent propagation and lower transmission costs?Skipping around the edges of the FM band ... not interfering with aircraft bands as well and getting out if the x00MHz mindset of those building out channels? 18 contiguous channels vs 12 non-contiguous channels?

All things considered I believe the 52-69 "700 MHz" band is better.

Unless you want a 6 foot antenna on your cell phone, those channels aren't an option.That too! :D

justalurker

02-18-09, 02:48 PM

Actually, I've heard that some stations purposely went with UHF where possible...for just that reason, the future mobile/ancilliary use of the UHF spectrum. (It's also one reason Qualcomm is camping out on 55.)True. Some stations will be placing "mobile" subchannel on their DTV channels. UHF would be a nicer antenna match to "portable".

jtbell

02-18-09, 02:57 PM

I'd think the major complication would be the unavailability of channels 14-20 (T Band) because they are in use by land mobile in many populated areas.

I guess land mobile doesn't get much use in my neck of the woods, because channels 14, 15, 16, 17 and 18 are all in use (or will be in use) by digital TV stations within my viewing range. In addition 19 is currently in use by an analog station, and 20 is in use by a digital station just outside my range, in Atlanta.

afiggatt

02-18-09, 03:05 PM

As you can see from my original post (which you quoted), they are now at 33 KW ERP. They will be going to 53 KW ERP 12 JUN. Same tower in Tamaroa IL, same HAAT. Analog was 316 KW ERP (same tower and ant- reusing the original VHF). The transition DTV was 1 MW ERP, and lower on the same tower with a side mount.

Prior to lighting up DTV-8, both were reliable.
How do you know for sure that WSIU-DT was operating at their alloted 33 kW ERP last night right after the flash cut? The station may have run into technical issues or is still swapping out transmitter hardware. If I were in your situation I would contact the station and find out. Please post an update on whether your reception of the DT 8 signal improves.

The DT ERPs for the upper VHF stations that have or are going to flash cut to their analog channel is one of the potential biggest problems in the transition. A lot of them have opted for ERPs on the low side. One of the stations I get OTA, WBAL NBC 11 in Baltimore had a 316 kW analog signal (now stuck at 180 some kW because of transmitter mods made in January) will be going to 5 kW ERP on DT 11 post-transition. That is one of the biggest drops in analog to digital ERP on the same channel, so it could be interesting to see what happens come June 13.

narkspud

02-18-09, 03:12 PM

I was responding to narkspud, who was responding to my claim that all stations could be on 14-69 or 14-63 instead of 2-51.

I took you to mean 14 to 51 as well. AFTER the transition, LA itself will have six (count 'em 6!) UHFs in a row KTLA (31), KDOC (32), KTBN (33), KMEX (34), KRCA (35) and KNBC (36). There's also a 38, 39, 41, 42, 43, 47, 48, 49 and 51. That's how packed-in we are here, and that doesn't include the surrounding markets or the CAs, just full-power in LA and Orange County.

To get all our stations into 14 to 51, you've got 4 VHFs (plus, I guess, a worthless LD) to find a UHF home for. And you have to maintain their existing analog coverage area. Good luck with that.

Piggie

02-18-09, 03:42 PM

(Can't confirm WVEN as their analog generally doesn't make it here

I am in Orange Springs, NE corner of the Orlando DMA but my UHF is pointed at Gainesville. I could see WVEN day or night off the back of my 4221A.

It is not there today. It must be off.

Stanislav

02-18-09, 04:15 PM

Oh come on. Of course all the stations could fit on 14-69, or even 14-63.

The stations didn't want that plan, because they didn't want to pay the transmitter bills, they liked VHF propagation, they wanted their nice low channel numbers, blah, blah, blah...

Exactly. In my own market, there are several "clusters" of stations operating on consecutive, adjacent DTV channels. Analog usually required a 6-channel separation (unless there were site/power/directional restirctions to cram in a few more channels). You have to grant that, flaws aside, digital signals DO use spectrum much more efficiently. I'm sure they could cram a lot more DTV transmitters into the available spectrum and still not run into any serious interference problems.

jhe

02-18-09, 04:27 PM

I've already looked at it. It's completely doable.

- Trip

It definitely is not doable since even with the channels we have now and assuming analog gone after June, there is still interference with many same channels too closely spaced.

Hartford-Springfield and Boston interfere right now.

We also have two channel 19's that make reception of either impossible in many places.

ctdish

02-18-09, 04:45 PM

It's not too good from the point of view of viwers between Hartford and NY city.
John

Piggie

02-18-09, 04:49 PM

Falcon_77

02-18-09, 05:22 PM

Larry Kenney

02-18-09, 05:33 PM

Larry, did you notice that both KOFY and KICU screwed up the transition? :) KICU had something aligned wrong, so the bottom half of the video was at the top of the screen, and top half at the bottom, with a black bar in between. (Is that called "bad racking"? I was a radio engineer. :) ) And KOFY ran the PSA's audio for a minute or so while the video of an infomercial was still running.

I set one VCR each to KICU on DirecTV and Comcast, because it was the only station I could get that was potentially changing frequencies tonight. However, they're apparently waiting until June to do that, so there was no frequency change for Comcast or DirecTV to stumble on. If they even get KICU's digital signal OTA; I've read that most SF stations are feeding cable and satellite systems with fiber these days. Do you have more info on that?

Patty

I get about 8 ghosts on KICU, so couldn't really see what they were doing. I did notice the two step process that KOFY went through to switch from programming to the Nightlight PSAs. For quite a while they had the PSA audio running over the picture from their programming.

I think those NAB PSAs that the stations are running for Nightlight service do a pretty good job of explaining things... especially the parts about connecting your converter box and antenna selection. KOFY also has their own locally produced PSA that runs between the NAB PSA that is well done.

KFTY is the only station in this area that has applied for Special Temporary Authority (STA) to move their digital operation from channel 54 to channel 32, and it was granted by the FCC. However, it was noted this morning that they're still on 54. A note from their engineering department to Calaveras said they plan to have it moved by midnight tonight, but they are delayed by the three feet of snow atop Mt. St. Helena. Guess they've got to plow the road first.

Larry
SF

Trip in VA

02-18-09, 06:17 PM

It definitely is not doable since even with the channels we have now and assuming analog gone after June, there is still interference with many same channels too closely spaced.

Hartford-Springfield and Boston interfere right now.

We also have two channel 19's that make reception of either impossible in many places.

While I don't disagree, that doesn't change the fact that the low-VHFs can be moved off the band successfully without issue.

I will have to dig up my list and post it.

- Trip

ctdish

02-18-09, 06:31 PM

It's harder to justify the high VHF's. I have been to a few sites in SE CT and Westerly, RI that could only get major networks on VHF channels. This occurs even with VHF powers around 20 KW and colocated UHF transmitters greater than 500 MW.
John

Falcon_77

02-18-09, 07:17 PM

I have been to a few sites in SE CT and Westerly, RI that could only get major networks on VHF channels. This occurs even with VHF powers around 20 KW and colocated UHF transmitters greater than 500 MW.
John

That was certainly my case as respects Providence, though I had much better luck with Hartford. Both sites are about 51 miles away.

I wonder how that VHF only antenna house is doing right now? It was pointed at Providence, but I doubt they will have any luck with UHF WJAR and WLNE.

I favor UHF for DTV, but it certainly has its limitations, especially if a 5000' tower isn't available to mount the antenna on (e.g. Mt. Wilson). In LOS areas, UHF seems to have a significant advantage, especially for indoor antennas. The reverse is true for areas on the fringe with a good rooftop antenna setup.

Ideally, a station could run both a UHF transmitter for urban/sub-urban areas and an upper VHF transmitter for the fringes. However, we simply don't have the channels available for that.

foxeng

02-18-09, 07:23 PM

DTV Transition
DTV Switch: Reports Indicate Smooth Early Analog Shutoff
Phones are ringing steadily at the various phone banks servicing more than 400 stations that yanked their analog signals yesterday, though state broadcasting associations say it’s a manageable number.
By Michael Malone, Broadcasting & Cable, 2/18/2009 12:42:21 PM MT

Phones are ringing steadily at the various phone banks servicing the stations that yanked their analog signals yesterday, though state broadcasting associations say it’s a manageable number.

Over 400 stations opted to switch solely to digital by the original Feb. 17 deadline, and many report the switch has been relatively smooth. Calls are pouring in from viewers, mostly trying to figure out how to rescan their boxes to receive digital signals. But a number of broadcasters say they’ve not heard from people who were taken by surprise by their local stations’ switch.

“There are complaints, yes, but it’s much more, ‘how do I hook up my box?’ as opposed to people not knowing about [the turnoff],” says Pennsylvania Broadcasters Association Member Services Director Gail Ponti. (Various stations in Harrisburg and Wilkes Barre made the jump, while the major outlets in Philadelphia are waiting until June.)

Similarly, it appears concerns about confusion stemming from the federal government’s decision to push back the DTV deadline until June are failing to emerge as a major issue. “Nothing’s come up in terms of people saying ‘we thought we had until June,’” says Rhode Island Broadcasters Association Executive Director Lori Needham, who helped the likes of WJAR, WNAC, WPRI and WLNE make the switch. “Rhode Island broadcasters have done an incredible job of getting the word out.”

After turning off its analog signals at midnight Tuesday, Wednesday had gone pretty smoothly through early afternoon for NBC affiliate WJAR Providence. The Media General-owned station, which is relying on the call-center of PBS station WSBE to field viewer questions, actually had more calls yesterday, said WJAR VP/GM Lisa Churchville.

“The day after is calmer than the day before,” said Churchville. “Yesterday, we had calls from a lot of people who even if they had the equipment in their house, they were just setting it up.”

About 7% of the Providence market relies solely on over-the-air TV, said Churchville, who estimated that only a “couple hundred households” were completely unprepared for the analog turnoff.

The WSBE call-center has 20 phones going, and was particularly active around Tuesday’s newscast, though the volume was manageable. Most of the questions were about the need to reposition or upgrade existing antennas to reliably receive digital TV signals from UHF stations like WJAR, which used to broadcast analog TV on VHF channel 10 but transmits DTV on UHF Ch. 51.

“The single greatest concern was antennas,” said Churchville. “You need a good UHF antenna. We’ve been talking about the need for a good UHF antenna since November. But while the message about the digital converter box was very clear, the antenna message was less powerful.”

While there are no federally-subsidized coupons for antennas, most WJAR over-the-air viewers will “probably have to go out and get a better antenna than they have now” to get good digital TV reception, said Churchville, who added that WJAR points viewers to the Website tvfool.com for advice on suitable antennas.

Most over-the-air viewers in Providence rely on outdoor antennas because of reception challenges in the market, said Churchville. She has upgraded the outdoor antenna at her own home for DTV by purchasing a $60 Channel Master unit.

WJAR has received perhaps 75 to 100 calls over the past two weeks from viewers who were confused about the new June 12 analog turnoff date that many stations around the country will now adhere to. Churchville said there was more confusion by Providence viewers over the fact that digital signals have been available in the market for years before today, which may explain why so many viewers were hooking up their digital converter boxes at the 11th hour.

“That may have been something they didn’t completely understand, that the digital signal was already there, and they could have hooked the box up a long time ago,” she said. “Of course, some of it may be pure procrastination.”

The Wisconsin Broadcasters Association reports that stations have been getting calls “in the hundreds” since making the switch yesterday. President Michelle Vetterkind says the stations made the decision to have calls from concerned viewers placed directly to them, as opposed to common call centers, so that trained station employees could personally walk through callers’ issues right from the DMA, and offer up their knowledge of the local terrain when appropriate. “We’re trying to take care of it at the station level, with localized customer service,” Vetterkind says. “There’s been some frustration, but very little anger.”

To be sure, despite the awareness campaigns and readiness tests, numerous people woke up without functioning television; Nielsen reported this morning that 5 million American homes remain unprepared. Even those who’ve taken the campaigns to heart and obtained the converter boxes may find themselves in the dark. One viewer in Madison, Wisc. posted the following on the WMTV Website: “Any ideas why I had no signal this morning on either my digital tv or on the ones with converter boxes? My televisions all said there was no signal. I even re-scanned for channels and there was nothing for Channel 15, 15.1 or 15.2. Until this morning I had no problem getting the digital. Really a bad morning - your news show is the only one I care to watch.”

But stations are hard at work to continue knocking that 5 million down toward zero, and many awoke today to discover they’ve taken a giant step in that direction “All is well in Michigan,” says Michigan Association of Broadcasters President/CEO Karole White. “Frogs are not falling from the sky.”

Glen Dickson contributed to this report.

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/174437-DTV_Switch_Reports_Indicate_Smooth_Early_Analog_Shutoff.php

foxeng

02-18-09, 07:30 PM

DTV Transition
DTV Switch: Reports Indicate Smooth Early Analog Shutoff
Phones are ringing steadily at the various phone banks servicing more than 400 stations that yanked their analog signals yesterday, though state broadcasting associations say it’s a manageable number.
By Michael Malone , Glen Dickson, Broadcasting & Cable, 2/18/2009 12:42:21 PM MT

Phones are ringing steadily at the various phone banks servicing the stations that yanked their analog signals yesterday, though state broadcasting associations say it’s a manageable number.

Over 400 stations opted to switch solely to digital by the original Feb. 17 deadline, and many report the switch has been relatively smooth. Calls are pouring in from viewers, mostly trying to figure out how to rescan their boxes to receive digital signals. But a number of broadcasters say they’ve not heard from people who were taken by surprise by their local stations’ switch.

“There are complaints, yes, but it’s much more, ‘how do I hook up my box?’ as opposed to people not knowing about [the turnoff],” says Pennsylvania Broadcasters Association Member Services Director Gail Ponti. (Various stations in Harrisburg and Wilkes Barre made the jump, while the major outlets in Philadelphia are waiting until June.)

Similarly, it appears concerns about confusion stemming from the federal government’s decision to push back the DTV deadline until June are failing to emerge as a major issue. “Nothing’s come up in terms of people saying ‘we thought we had until June,’” says Rhode Island Broadcasters Association Executive Director Lori Needham, who helped the likes of WJAR, WNAC, WPRI and WLNE make the switch. “Rhode Island broadcasters have done an incredible job of getting the word out.”

After turning off its analog signals at midnight Tuesday, Wednesday had gone pretty smoothly through early afternoon for NBC affiliate WJAR Providence. The Media General-owned station, which is relying on the call-center of PBS station WSBE to field viewer questions, actually had more calls yesterday, said WJAR VP/GM Lisa Churchville.

“The day after is calmer than the day before,” said Churchville. “Yesterday, we had calls from a lot of people who even if they had the equipment in their house, they were just setting it up.”

About 7% of the Providence market relies solely on over-the-air TV, said Churchville, who estimated that only a “couple hundred households” were completely unprepared for the analog turnoff.

The WSBE call-center has 20 phones going, and was particularly active around Tuesday’s newscast, though the volume was manageable. Most of the questions were about the need to reposition or upgrade existing antennas to reliably receive digital TV signals from UHF stations like WJAR, which used to broadcast analog TV on VHF channel 10 but transmits DTV on UHF Ch. 51.

“The single greatest concern was antennas,” said Churchville. “You need a good UHF antenna. We’ve been talking about the need for a good UHF antenna since November. But while the message about the digital converter box was very clear, the antenna message was less powerful.”

While there are no federally-subsidized coupons for antennas, most WJAR over-the-air viewers will “probably have to go out and get a better antenna than they have now” to get good digital TV reception, said Churchville, who added that WJAR points viewers to the Website tvfool.com for advice on suitable antennas.

Most over-the-air viewers in Providence rely on outdoor antennas because of reception challenges in the market, said Churchville. She has upgraded the outdoor antenna at her own home for DTV by purchasing a $60 Channel Master unit.

WJAR has received perhaps 75 to 100 calls over the past two weeks from viewers who were confused about the new June 12 analog turnoff date that many stations around the country will now adhere to. Churchville said there was more confusion by Providence viewers over the fact that digital signals have been available in the market for years before today, which may explain why so many viewers were hooking up their digital converter boxes at the 11th hour.

“That may have been something they didn’t completely understand, that the digital signal was already there, and they could have hooked the box up a long time ago,” she said. “Of course, some of it may be pure procrastination.”

The Wisconsin Broadcasters Association reports that stations have been getting calls “in the hundreds” since making the switch yesterday. President Michelle Vetterkind says the stations made the decision to have calls from concerned viewers placed directly to them, as opposed to common call centers, so that trained station employees could personally walk through callers’ issues right from the DMA, and offer up their knowledge of the local terrain when appropriate. “We’re trying to take care of it at the station level, with localized customer service,” Vetterkind says. “There’s been some frustration, but very little anger.”

To be sure, despite the awareness campaigns and readiness tests, numerous people woke up without functioning television; Nielsen reported this morning that 5 million American homes remain unprepared. Even those who’ve taken the campaigns to heart and obtained the converter boxes may find themselves in the dark. One viewer in Madison, Wisc. posted the following on the WMTV Website: “Any ideas why I had no signal this morning on either my digital tv or on the ones with converter boxes? My televisions all said there was no signal. I even re-scanned for channels and there was nothing for Channel 15, 15.1 or 15.2. Until this morning I had no problem getting the digital. Really a bad morning - your news show is the only one I care to watch.”

But stations are hard at work to continue knocking that 5 million down toward zero, and many awoke today to discover they’ve taken a giant step in that direction “All is well in Michigan,” says Michigan Association of Broadcasters President/CEO Karole White. “Frogs are not falling from the sky.”

KGTV, the ABC affiliate in San Diego, had more work to do to complete the analog turnoff than most broadcasters. The McGraw-Hill station was one of a number of stations switching its digital TV channel to its old analog assignment as part of the turnoff. In KGTV’s case, it was going from UHF Ch. 25 to VHF Ch. 10.

KFMB, the CBS affiliate in San Diego, was making a similar move by going back to its original Ch. 8 assignment. KGTV and KFMB, who were joined by Fox affiliate KSWB in turning off early, coordinated their efforts so that viewers wouldn’t have to rescan their converter boxes or digital TV sets twice, explained KGTV VP/GM Jeff Block. The other three full-power stations in the market that are continuing analog broadcasts for now aren’t changing their DTV assignment, so there won’t be any rescanning required when they cease analog operations..

“When the decision was made by Washington to delay, some stations thought keeping the old date would be the easiest, while some stations are holding off [on turning off analog],” said Block. “Probably, from a customer’s point-of-view, the most important thing was for us and Ch. 8 to go at the same time, because we’re switching channels. Otherwise, viewers would need to rescan twice, and that would not have been good.”

KGTV turned off its Ch. 10 analog signal at 11:30 p.m. PST on Tuesday, then powered down its Ch. 25 DTV transmitter at 12:05 a.m. Wednesday, said Block. The station was back up broadcasting DTV on Ch. 10 by 1 a.m.

“The switchover was painless,” said Block.

KGTV had about 50 viewer calls yesterday, and as of late Wednesday afternoon had received about 125 calls from viewers regarding the turnoff. While viewer calls in recent weeks have generally been about digital converter boxes or the NTIA coupon program (KGTV has been collecting unused coupons from viewers and redistributing them to viewers who need them), the subject matter was different today.

“In the morning, 80% of the calls were about rescanning,” said Block. “Now, it’s 50% rescanning and 50% antenna issues, viewers saying ‘I can’t find you.’ Of course, some of them are trying to find us with a UHF antenna, which is really tough.”

Both KGTV engineers and non-technical personnel have been assisting viewers in reorienting their antennas. Since many converter boxes and digital TVs have signal strength meters, KGTV staffers have been able to walk many viewers through the antenna orientation process over the phone, said Block.

“Through all that, I think we’re getting about 95% of the problems solved,” said Block.

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/174437-DTV_Switch_Reports_Indicate_Smooth_Early_Analog_Shutoff.php

willscary

02-18-09, 07:36 PM

Trip in VA

02-18-09, 08:23 PM

Couldn't find my list, so I just redid it.

Low-VHF stations and potential future homes:

KVBC 10
KNAZ (already wants 22)
KREX 9 or 10
WLBZ 25 (could get 13 if co-located with WABI)
KOTA (See Note 1)
KNOP 22 (See Note 2)
KJWY 9

WBRA 16
KYUS 12
KDLO 22
KIEM 13
WSBS 12
KVNV (Anything, pretty much)

WHBF 17
KSNB 19 (9 is close, but probably not possible)

KCWX 35 (could operate from KMYS's tower)
WTVF 11
WMC 9 or 11
WGVK 32 or 33
WOI 10 (Else 19 or 31, whichever KDMI doesn't end up on)
WLMB 23
WCYB 28
KYES 7/9/11/13
KHAS 21
WDTV 16
KOBI 15 (7 doesn't meet spacing rules but might be doable)
KIVV (See Note 1)
WBKP 22 (11 is short to co-owned WBUP-10, might be able to manage it)
KIDA 9
KXLF 9
KXGN 10

WPVI (Move WWSI-DT to 10, put WPVI on 48)
WEDY 42 (See Note 3)
WUOA 15
WRGB 8
WCES 26 or 23
WABW 14 or 18
KBSD 15
KWNB 18 (See Note 2)
KTVM 10

Note 1: If KHSD moved back to 11, KIVV could go on 12 and KOTA on 9. Else, KIVV 29 and KOTA any channel almost.

Note 2: If either station wanted to co-locate with KPNE, channel 8 is available at that location.

Note 3: This assumes WSAH is granted their move to the Empire State Building on channel 41. If not, then this one's tough, they'd probably have to try to jam something in on 43 or 34 or 32.

- Trip

Piggie

02-18-09, 08:29 PM

My suggestion to move the T-Band (Land Mobile) to Low-VHF hasn't gained much acceptance. It also seems that there are no plans to move T-Band ops to the new public safety areas. (part of the 52-69 spectrum - 60-69 if I read it correctly before.)

As it stands, effectively losing most of 14-21 to Land Mobile in the most congested areas is making auctioning off 52-69 look like a mistake.

Hartford and NYC should not have to share channels.

We should have kept at least 7-59.

Edit: I almost forgot. We get to share what's left of the UHF band with WSD's, i.e. TV Band Devices.

Falcon, I have been screaming this for a long time, but of course they keep telling me to go find a good mud puddle (they do bring comfort).

I believe we really gave away about 2 times too much. However even 5 channels would have helped a lot in some areas.

The police at least my age know about low band. It skips too much. It is good though for range when there is no skip. The Florida Highway Patrol still uses a few channels in the 40 MHz range which would be about Negative CH 1 or 2 in TV. It requires 6 foot whips.

Quarter wave whips at the top of Ch 6 are about half that size. The percentage bandwidth would be way to great a spread to use trunked radios where transmit at the top of the band and listen at the bottom. At best you would have to divide it up in 10 MHz chunks for repeater use (all cell phones and trunked are still repeaters or more modern term duplex systems).

Even that would be a challenge to build a mobile shortened vertical for cars, etc. The more shortened the vertical antenna the narrower it's bandwidth.

It won't work well. Without two antennas per mobile device, and you could not build a transceiver very well, much of the transmit and receive sections could not be shared.

I still think the best use of Low Band TV 2-6 would be give FM radio another 6 to 12 MHz to make real HD radio, not compressed MP3. Then use what is left or the entire 5 channels if not to FM as low power TV. I would have to remain analog which would go against the grain of the digital only crowd. Well it could not be the current ATSC encoding as the noise there is too great. Maybe reduce channels to 10 Mbps would help. No one can tell me any real thought into efficiently using low band was included in this transition.

CHeath

02-18-09, 08:30 PM

Last night I tried to stay up & watch WHRO, but didn't quite make it.
I recorded WTVZ. Nothing really worth saving. A commercial, then a few seconds of snow, then the DTV infomercial loop starts.

Trip in VA

02-18-09, 08:34 PM

CHeath:

Would you mind sending me a new capture of WTKR-DT when you get the chance?

Thanks.

- Trip

HIPAR

02-18-09, 08:38 PM

From what I have seen, the FCC may have miscalculated the power requirements for VHF-hi.

Stations in my area that had been broadcasting their digital signal on pre-transition UHF and have now gone VHF-hi have disappeared. I think that the 17-23kW ERP that they have been alloted is probably too low and needs to be raised to around 75kW ERP (6db gain).

Just my opinion, but I have seen it happen on 4 channels that have now switched. There is a 5th that will switch in June.

Hopefully, if this is indeed the case, the FCC will act as quickly to correct this as they did to postpone the full switch.

Bill

I've seen claims that an 8VSB signal can be provide equal NTSC coverage with anywhere between one fourth the power to one tenth the power. I have also seen very confusing arguments about how differently power is measured for each case.

Anyway, lower power might be demonstrable in the lab or along a free space path but you might very well be correct claiming they cut it too close in the real world with fading and noise considerations. As we all know, there is no graceful degradation of image quality when the signal becomes marginal.

--- CHAS

HIPAR

02-18-09, 08:51 PM

Piggie

02-18-09, 09:17 PM

I've seen claims that an 8VSB signal can be provide equal NTSC coverage with anywhere between one fourth the power to one tenth the power. I have also seen very confusing arguments about how differently power is measured for each case.

Anyway, lower power might be demonstrable in the lab or along a free space path but you might very well be correct claiming they cut it too close in the real world with fading and noise considerations. As we all know, there is no graceful degradation of image quality when the signal becomes marginal.

--- CHAS

From what I see in my area in North Central FL and listening to people around the country I know and on here to me there is no doubt most HB VHF DTV are running too lower of power.

High Band best signal is still LOS. While it will knife edge refract in the real world better than UHF and does have a tiny bit of ground wave, it's not that much.

It will penetrate trees and wooden walls much better. But makes less difference to a lot of outdoor antennas.

I still think the one huge problem overlooked until recently and is signal to noise. There is just a lot more noise the lower one goes in frequency. This has been known for about a century now.

So take a 300 meter tower in relatively flat Florida. Give or take round numbers of 40 miles LOS. Even a 5KW station will put enough signal to cover that area. However (I don't have engineering numbers as this is an empirical observation) it's not enough power to lock a receiver over the noise.

From what I am seeing if you go to TVFool and see a UHF that is say 25 db (NM) you can put up enough antenna to pull it up to a 99% of the time usable station. Take that same power level on VHF and even a stacked pair of VHF beams will not always hold a signal. Much less db (NM) and you can't ever lock the VHF station.

We have a 4.9 KW CH09 here in Gainesville. The tower is about 10 miles west of the west edge of town and over 20 miles from the east edge of town. One can't just use rabbit ears. To have a useful signal all the time it really requires an antenna like the Y5-7-13 even as close as 12 miles to the station out side at 12 to 20 ft up.

Here is what I have noticed.

Stations in the 5 to 12 KW range cover at best 1/3 of their contour.
Those at 25 to 30 KW reach to 1/2 of better of their contour.
Those at 55KW and up cover 75% of their contour.

By cover I mean an indoor or very small outside antenna, like many of the gimmick antenna that are really only UHF.

wintertime

02-18-09, 09:41 PM

KFTY is the only station in this area that has applied for Special Temporary Authority (STA) to move their digital operation from channel 54 to channel 32, and it was granted by the FCC. However, it was noted this morning that they're still on 54. A note from their engineering department to Calaveras said they plan to have it moved by midnight tonight, but they are delayed by the three feet of snow atop Mt. St. Helena. Guess they've got to plow the road first.
:)

Not a problem we have too often in the Bay Area! The past week has been an unusually long run of snow on the local mountains. I enjoy seeing it, but it's unfortunate that it happened just as some folks are trying to do critical transmitter work.

Patty

iowegian3

02-18-09, 10:19 PM

hi-band VHF penetration problems: it isn't your imagination. Remembered the saga of early adopter KUON (http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1278932&Service=DS&Form_id=911&Facility_id=66589) Lincoln NE which took DT back to its original ch 12 last fall. There's a link to the Legal Exhibit at the bottom of the form. Key point: FCC approved a boost of KUON-DT 12's ERP from 13kW to 44kW. More to come?

Also from the Omaha thread...a link that will lead you to WOWT's final analog signoff (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15843586#post15843586)

Dr Touchtone

02-18-09, 10:41 PM

I believe when it's all said and done, just like the other auctions, they took too much bandwidth. I am betting the new technologies didn't really need 52-54 etc. maybe more.

Too bad (too much lobbying money) they didn't make them leave the TV-LM band when they gave them new frequencies in 700 MHz range. I also wonder if their 800 MHz frequencies are all used in all those areas.

Don't forget the battle where UPS won to take 220 to 222 away from the hams and now it's a wasteland.

NOW the FCC is allowing NBFM on 220-222....(2.5kHz deviation) since ACSSB was a failure....there are a LOT of FM licenses issued in NY state for 220-222...the state figured out it was a quiet area...and Motorola has started selling FM gear for that band (imagine that!:eek:)....the ACSSB systems are all dead and off the air for the most part..I dont know of ANY active ACSSB 220 system...
LMR in the major metro areas like Houston, DFW, etc are dead in T band...10+ years ago I helped strip a downtown building top of its T band antennas, etc.. the users had gone Nextel or 800MHz trunking....the 470-512 range is pretty clear but yet the channels are still reserved in a lot of places...even 420-430 was taken from the hams within 75miles of the US-CA border and used for LMR....with narrowFM or digital (P25, etc) I know the entire 450-470 and VHF ranges could be refarmed to handle everyone and move LMR off T band and probably 220 as well...but its a done deal and once the FCC taketh, they dont give back :mad:

Dr Touchtone

02-18-09, 10:47 PM

gjvrieze

02-18-09, 10:50 PM

gjvrieze

02-18-09, 11:01 PM

12-02-08 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15196226#post15196226
I doubt it.

I had this discussion with Piggie in the Gainesville thread, we basically concluded that before all is said and done, upper-VHF (7-13) stations will get a big power increase because the power levels they're being given simply aren't enough. (KUON has an application to increase their power from 13 kW to 75 kW, which might help the problems there)

Low-VHF (2-6) is unusable at any power level as far as I'm concerned.

- Trip

Trip was right back then, now if only we can learn from this and have stations get "better" power before the rest transition back to VHF-HI........

Piggie

02-18-09, 11:22 PM

12-02-08 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15196226#post15196226

Trip was right back then, now if only we can learn from this and have stations get "better" power before the rest transition back to VHF-HI........

I don't have a bunch of credentials to hang on the wall, and to a lot of people experience learned as a ham is called mickey mouse.

But I spend half my active years on VHF mostly 144 and 221 MHz. I know how those bands propagate. I worked most of my life in broadcasting though most of it on the manufacturing end, though I have done a tour of duty in commercial TV broadcasting.

It was obvious to me right away from the high band stations around here the FCC maps were all wrong. Sure the signal gets out on that contour, but the S/N at a high enough level doesn't reach the edges.

But the sad part of my story is my local WNBW CH09, is at 4.9KW, because of a direction antenna gives me 860 Watts ERP on my radial and I am 37 miles from their tower. My rough guess is most VHF that is under 40KW needs a 6db or as much as they can get. (obviously someone running 30KW can't acheive 6db). My situation the new channel NBC was put there mostly to comply with the must carry rule. They had no intention to be a real OTA station. After all it takes a 3 to 6 element beam to receive them Gainesville, the city the DMA is named after!

Several of us emailed the GM and he replied with a canned letter that said he was running enough power.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15614629#post15614629

Falcon_77

02-19-09, 02:39 AM

Trip in VA

02-19-09, 02:50 AM

WCSH has taken the initiative and is simulcasting their newscasts on some local radio stations to keep the audio available after the transition. Other stations on channel 6 should do that.

No comments from anyone on my proposed list for how to clear low-VHF?

- Trip

justalurker

02-19-09, 03:13 AM

The loss of channel 6 TV stations on FM radio seems to be a bigger problem than I had thought. The following link has 50 comments for WCTV (Tallahassee/CBS) as of this posting, about half of which complain that 87.7 has gone away with the analog switch-off.Odd. I never really thought of that as a service, just a side effect. One can buy TV band audio tuners (which will become more obsolete as TV goes digital).

What is wrong with the real radio stations in the community? Don't they serve the needs?

justalurker

02-19-09, 03:17 AM

No comments from anyone on my proposed list for how to clear low-VHF?I'm not going to check your math, but it looks interesting. If it were a plan that would actually be followed I might take more interest. But it is good to see that, in theory, it can be done (without restarting the allocation process from scratch).

There seem to be a lot of errors in allocations due to trying to fit digital in around analog signals as well as vs other digital stations. Some stations are just too close together. But the errors are there and changing frequencies is a lot harder in real life than on paper. Antennas are not cheap! Not to mention paying qualified engineers to predict the lack of interference for the filings and crews to swap out the antennas and modify the transmission equipment.

milehighmike

02-19-09, 03:29 AM

I just watched the WOWT analog signoff clip. Nicely done. The announcer's voice seems like the voice I've heard on other stations. It made me wonder, does this guy do work for lots of stations or do stations just hire announcers who all sound the same?

On another note, and slightly off topic, I noticed that WOWT used to use the call sign WOW. Other stations have changed over the years from 3 letters to 4 letters in their call signs, like WWOR/WOR, WGRZ/WGR, etc. Others have remained at 3 letters, like WJW, WJZ, WRC, etc. Does any one know why some stations added an additional letter to their call sign? Old FCC requirement on ownership change?

NashDigie

02-19-09, 03:42 AM

. . .
WTVF 11 . . .

- Trip

Where did you get this information? I never did know about this.

NashDigie signing off.

kb7oeb

02-19-09, 03:44 AM

I've always been able to pick up all the TV audio with my ham radio's receiver but I've never had a reason to listen to TV audio. If anything is going on NPR or a news talk station is better since they know you can't see anything when they are describing things.

(Best example is when a primary candidate for the 2004 presidential election brought visual aids to a radio only debate on NPR)

dr1394

02-19-09, 04:45 AM

I've always been able to pick up all the TV audio with my ham radio's receiver but I've never had a reason to listen to TV audio.
During the peak of sunspot cycles, those of us on the West Coast looking for DX on 6 meters listen for the wide-band FM audio from TV stations in New Zealand (at 50.740, 50.750 and 50.760 MHz) as an indicator of F2 propagation conditions to that area of the world.

Eventually, these low-band transmitters will go away. The transition to DVB-T in New Zealand extends to 2015, so maybe they'll still be around for Cycle 24.

http://people.aapt.net.au/~sg4/zltv.htm

Ron

Piggie

02-19-09, 04:57 AM

The loss of channel 6 TV stations on FM radio seems to be a bigger problem than I had thought. The following link has 50 comments for WCTV (Tallahassee/CBS) as of this posting, about half of which complain that 87.7 has gone away with the analog switch-off.

http://www.wctv.tv/home/headlines/39720257.html

Being in an "odd" market most of my life, I haven't grown accustomed to this, but clearly some markets have a different perspective.

As a kid, in 1964 my parents bought our first FM radio. Of course I played with it and found what sounded like a TV station. I didn't understand sub carriers and stuff at age 10, but soon figured out that day it was WDBO CH6 (now WKMG).

Since it was in a big stereo set we would turn it on when listening to Ch6 on the TV. I thought that was totally cool.

I never used it for emergency alerts, as FM radios were not portable. I didn't get one of those for a few years later. And of course no one had one in the car. But I do remember listening to the news on it in the early 80's when I finally had FM in the car. You could hear it all the way up here in Gainesville.

It was used a lot around the country.

Piggie

02-19-09, 05:01 AM

Odd. I never really thought of that as a service, just a side effect. One can buy TV band audio tuners (which will become more obsolete as TV goes digital).

What is wrong with the real radio stations in the community? Don't they serve the needs?

no they don't. The rock stations are all too cool for that stuff and I have had to listen to them in a hurricane. They spend more time being funny than real information.

I found the country stations not much better.

AM radio shines more so but with lightning then or living rural you can't pick them up well on a portable.

Piggie

02-19-09, 05:05 AM

No comments from anyone on my proposed list for how to clear low-VHF?
- Trip

Good work Trip! :@)

I still say allow NTSC on low band for low power stations. A one KW station on low band NTSC would cover a town much better than translators and lp stuff that was up in the 60 something channels.

Heck they might even put a 500 Watt ERP limit on them.

Anyone have any idea what to do with those frequencies? Huge FM band? 5 and 6 would work good for FM.

Piggie

02-19-09, 05:08 AM

NOW the FCC is allowing NBFM on 220-222....(2.5kHz deviation) since ACSSB was a failure....there are a LOT of FM licenses issued in NY state for 220-222...the state figured out it was a quiet area...and Motorola has started selling FM gear for that band (imagine that!:eek:)....the ACSSB systems are all dead and off the air for the most part..I dont know of ANY active ACSSB 220 system.

I would not doubt there are 2way guys out there that are also hams that are diplexing 222MHz repeaters into commercial antennas. Might help that band grow.

PinkSplice

02-19-09, 05:25 AM

We don't want to punish him that way :D !!

Trip is too decent a human being to be punished that way. I agree.:)

PinkSplice

02-19-09, 05:31 AM

Thanks. That's the same as in the document Trip passed along - 14 and 15 are marked as taken in Cleveland. Yet, for whatever reason (as Trip noted) WEWS-DT is on 15, and is staying there. There must have been an agreement somewhere.

Quote of the day!

Actually, I've heard that some stations purposely went with UHF where possible...for just that reason, the future mobile/ancilliary use of the UHF spectrum. (It's also one reason Qualcomm is camping out on 55.)

Remember that the original CH 1 died because of land mobile use in the Northeast.

A major re-farming may take place after the Second Great Slowdown. After sufficient media outlets have died off, there may be enough spectrum, including repeaters/translators, for all stations to fit in 14-51.

PinkSplice

02-19-09, 05:47 AM

How do you know for sure that WSIU-DT was operating at their alloted 33 kW ERP last night right after the flash cut? The station may have run into technical issues or is still swapping out transmitter hardware. If I were in your situation I would contact the station and find out. Please post an update on whether your reception of the DT 8 signal improves.

The DT ERPs for the upper VHF stations that have or are going to flash cut to their analog channel is one of the potential biggest problems in the transition. A lot of them have opted for ERPs on the low side. One of the stations I get OTA, WBAL NBC 11 in Baltimore had a 316 kW analog signal (now stuck at 180 some kW because of transmitter mods made in January) will be going to 5 kW ERP on DT 11 post-transition. That is one of the biggest drops in analog to digital ERP on the same channel, so it could be interesting to see what happens come June 13.

I have already annoyed WSIU directly. They confirm the 33 KW ERP.

Nothing like a know-it-all geek/EE/EW expert/former chief engineer/ham/TV DX'er to make some poor kid's day, for the strategic mistake made by his bosses... :)

The UK has the raw political power to have made the prior UHF analog transition. The telly tax is the most hated tax in Britain. No US politician of any party wants to be on the NAB's bad side.

Add the NAB's need to save itself from land-mobile, and cell/internet, to the Congress' greed, and Murphy's Law, and you have the current situation.

PinkSplice

02-19-09, 05:55 AM

That was certainly my case as respects Providence, though I had much better luck with Hartford. Both sites are about 51 miles away.

I wonder how that VHF only antenna house is doing right now? It was pointed at Providence, but I doubt they will have any luck with UHF WJAR and WLNE.

I favor UHF for DTV, but it certainly has its limitations, especially if a 5000' tower isn't available to mount the antenna on (e.g. Mt. Wilson). In LOS areas, UHF seems to have a significant advantage, especially for indoor antennas. The reverse is true for areas on the fringe with a good rooftop antenna setup.

Ideally, a station could run both a UHF transmitter for urban/sub-urban areas and an upper VHF transmitter for the fringes. However, we simply don't have the channels available for that.

200 foot, unlighted towers running a single 15 KW ERP UHF DT, with ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, and PBS as SD subchannels in every rural area/signal hole in the US. 32 km/20 mile radius's. No local origination or air talent, except for markets 1-30. The future of broadcasting.

PinkSplice

02-19-09, 06:00 AM

PinkSplice

02-19-09, 06:10 AM

I would not doubt there are 2way guys out there that are also hams that are diplexing 222MHz repeaters into commercial antennas. Might help that band grow.

222 actually exists?

All I get is repeater idents on 2 meters or 70 cm, with a running ragchew on 146.52 about how great it was to have all your teeth pulled. :)

Stanislav

02-19-09, 06:42 AM

Remember that the original CH 1 died because of land mobile use in the Northeast.

It's a little more complicated than that. First, there were three incarnations of "channel 1" in the early days of TV:

1937-40: Channel 1 was 44-50 mHz, and it WAS used both by some of the early experimental stations, including W2XBS (which became WNBT, now WNBC-TV).

1940-45: 42-50 mHz is assigned to FM radio, and channel 1 is shifted up to 50-56 mHz. Again, a few stations did operate here, including the aforementioned WNBT.

1945+: FM is reassigned to 88-106 mHz (later extended to 108 mHz) and channel 1 was moved back to its original 44-50 mHz slot. It is this incarnation of "channel 1" that is meant when people quote the old TV history chestnut that "no station ever operated on channel 1." But in fact, there had been activity on the earlier versions of channel 1, and some of those did take place below 50 mHz.

A few stations did have CPs for the post-war channel 1 (it was more or less intended for lower-power "community" stations), but they never went on-air there. Many FMs were slow to move out of the band, plus it was becoming obvious that there were greater issues of noise, interference, skip, etc. at those frequencies there that made TV with its AM video signal particularly problematic. Yes, the need for additional VHF land mobile frequencies (and not just in the Northeast) was a concurrent factor, but it was not the only motivation (nor necessarily the primary one) for eliminating channel 1 from the TV dial.

foxeng

02-19-09, 07:55 AM

DTV Transition[FONT=Arial Black]
DTV Switch: Sinclair's Vegas Stations Get Few Calls

[FONT=Verdana]By Josef Adalian, TV Week, February 19, 2009

The Sinclair-owned television stations in Las Vegas rolled the dice on a Feb. 17 digital switchover—and so far, the bet seems to be paying off.

Mike Brown, director of engineering for Sinclair duopoly KVCW and KVMY, said that as of 3 p.m. local time, the station had gotten “very few calls” about the loss of its analog signal. He estimated that roughly 30 viewers had phoned the station directly.

For TVWeek's comprehensive coverage of the digital television transition, visit the DTV Switch Navigator page.

“There are probably 10 to 15 of those people who are (upset), and who you’re never going to make happy,” he said. “The rest have just wanted help with their signal. It’s kind of what I expected.”

KVCW and KVMY, the respective CW and MyNetworkTV outlets in Sin City, are running so-called “night light” billboards on their analog bandwidth informing viewers that the stations have gone digital and sending them to the FCC’s toll-free digital hotline for answers to any concerns they might have. As a result, it’s possible that more than 30 Las Vegas viewers have been left in the dark by the switchover.

Mr. Brown also anticipated extra call volume during prime time. He and other station staffers planned to stay late to field calls.

Relentless warnings about the switch seemed to have paid off. KVCW and KVMY had been running crawls on their analog signals for weeks, prompting about 10 calls a day from viewers unsure of what to do or how to tune in to a digital signal.

With around 728,000 TV homes, Las Vegas is the nation’s 42nd largest TV market, according to Nielsen estimates issued in September. Its other major English-language stations chose to push their digital switchovers to June.

Sinclair, however, issued a statement arguing that delaying the digital leap would simply lead to more audience confusion.

So far, Mr. Brown said his two stations are weathering the transition well.

“Everything’s pretty smooth,” he said.

http://www.tvweek.com/news/2009/02/dtv_switch_sinclairs_vegas_sta.php

foxeng

02-19-09, 07:57 AM

DTV Transition[FONT=Arial Black]
DTV Switch: WRSP Hitches 'Minimal'

[FONT=Verdana]By Andrew Krukowski, TV Week, February 19, 2009

Peter O’Brien, general manager of Fox-affiliate WRSP in Springfield, Ill., said that any hiccups at his station during the digital transition were “minimal.”

The Springfield-Champaign-Decatur market is the 84th largest market in the country, with 386,000 households.

For TVWeek's comprehensive coverage of the digital television transition, visit the DTV Switch Navigator page.

After switching over last night, Mr. O’Brien said his station received about a dozen calls today.
“I anticipate there might be a few more calls tonight with people tuning into ‘American Idol,’” he said.

Currently, WRSP’s analog signal is running at low power, and broadcasting a nine-minute National Association of Broadcasters-provided video in English and Spanish about how to make the digital switch. He said the analog signal will run the video for the next 10 days.

“I truly believe as broadcasters, we’ve done a very good job at educating the public,” he said.
Most of the calls today, he said, had to do with obtaining a convertor box, plus some troubleshooting.

No one should have been caught unaware of the transition today, he said.

http://www.tvweek.com/news/2009/02/dtv_switch_wrsp_hitches_minima.php

Trip in VA

02-19-09, 08:45 AM

Where did you get this information? I never did know about this.

NashDigie signing off.

There's no information. It's just a proposal for how low-VHF could be cleared off, if the FCC wanted to do it.

- Trip

Trip in VA

02-19-09, 08:55 AM

Anyone have any idea what to do with those frequencies? Huge FM band? 5 and 6 would work good for FM.

I've got some ideas.

Ham band on 68-72 MHz.

Expanded FM on 76-88 MHz.

Relocate AM stations to digital-only status on 54-68 MHz.

Trip is too decent a human being to be punished that way. I agree.:)

But then I could set policy! Just imagine, killing off low-VHF, eliminating WSDs, increasing upper-VHF power... :D It'd be like a dream come true!

222 actually exists?

All I get is repeater idents on 2 meters or 70 cm, with a running ragchew on 146.52 about how great it was to have all your teeth pulled. :)

You must not be in the right place. :)

In Charlottesville, there are three different repeaters on 222. Of course, I have a VX-7R so I can only do something like 300 mW on it and thus can only hit one of them really well, but they're there.

At home, I hear nothing on 222.

- Trip

TiVoFishMan

02-19-09, 09:06 AM

The loss of channel 6 TV stations on FM radio seems to be a bigger problem than I had thought. The following link has 50 comments for WCTV (Tallahassee/CBS) as of this posting, about half of which complain that 87.7 has gone away with the analog switch-off.

http://www.wctv.tv/home/headlines/39720257.html

Being in an "odd" market most of my life, I haven't grown accustomed to this, but clearly some markets have a different perspective.

I have it from good sources that WDSU (NBC Channel 6) in New Orleans is seriously bumming out about the loss of reception on FM radios.

They had promos on the station that plugged "And listen to WDSU on FM 87.7!" that ran frequently until about January of 2008. Obviously, as the Analog shutoff date loomed, they had to stop advertising this.

My wife will absolutely go through withdrawal after June 12. She has one of the buttons on her car radio set to 87.7. Listening to the audio of "Judge Judy" in the afternoon while running errands is part of her daily routine!

jtbell

02-19-09, 11:08 AM

Stations must continue to operate their pre-transition digital facilities through June 12, unless they apply for and are granted permission to switch to their post-transition facilities early.

WRDW in Augusta GA must have gotten permission to switch. It shut down analog on ch 12 Tuesday night and is now broadcasting in digital on that channel, instead of on its pre-transition ch 31. I was able to pick it up for a while last night. Time will tell whether ch 12 turns out to be an improvement over ch 31 which I could pick up maybe one night per week.

Falcon_77

02-19-09, 11:14 AM

KOTV in Tulsa is also getting a lot of feedback about the loss of 87.7 (6). It seems like the "anamoly" was in widespread use after all.

http://www.newson6.com/global/story.asp?s=9868001

TULSA, OK -- What happened to the TV sound on 87.7 FM? Afternoon drive was a peak time for people to listen to Channel 6 on the radio when they were driving home from work. That ended yesterday with the end of programming on analog Channel 6.

In the LA area, we have an LP station on 6, which is really a Spanish radio station. They have applied to F/C to digital on 6, which would seem to be counter-productive when they have no TV programming of note (just a slide usually).

narkspud

02-19-09, 11:35 AM

KOTV in Tulsa is also getting a lot of feedback about the loss of 87.7 (6). It seems like the "anamoly" was in widespread use after all.

http://www.newson6.com/global/story.asp?s=9868001

In the LA area, we have an LP station on 6, which is really a Spanish radio station. They have applied to F/C to digital on 6, which would seem to be counter-productive when they have no TV programming of note (just a slide usually).

Wilmington had a channel 6. I hear they appeased the whiners somewhat by promising to simulcast on a local FM station should an emergency arise.

I never liked listening to it. Besides the low volume level (and WECT's lousy sound quality at the time), I was one of the "lucky" people who could hear the stereo pilot tone. Drove me bananas.

Dr Touchtone

02-19-09, 12:15 PM

Remember that the original CH 1 died because of land mobile use in the Northeast.

A major re-farming may take place after the Second Great Slowdown. After sufficient media outlets have died off, there may be enough spectrum, including repeaters/translators, for all stations to fit in 14-51.

Land mobile had nothing to do with the original Ch 1 going away...EVERYONE wanted to be on it...the skip caused massive interference and the 6m ham band was between 1 and 2....thus 1 was deleted in a final realignment and the channels 2-83 were left.....

SnellKrell

02-19-09, 12:31 PM

There's an old story about ABC Television.

As I understand it, there was a chief engineer who talked management into,
that when there was a choice in a given market for an owned station, do not try
for 2-6, that they were going to be eliminated they way 1 was.

That's why in so many cases, 7 was the choice for ABC owned stations.

P.S. I think they eliminated that engineer.

kb7oeb

02-19-09, 12:59 PM

7-13 looked much better anyway

What would happen if you ran a station on 2-6 at 1MW, would you end up with a long range station or just a bunch of overloaded receivers?

foxeng

02-19-09, 01:59 PM

What would happen if you ran a station on 2-6 at 1MW, would you end up with a long range station or just a bunch of overloaded receivers?

Both.

foxeng

02-19-09, 02:00 PM

A major re-farming may take place after the Second Great Slowdown. After sufficient media outlets have died off, there may be enough spectrum, including repeaters/translators, for all stations to fit in 14-51.

Who is going to pay for those stations left in 7-13 to move to UHF?

Dr Touchtone

02-19-09, 02:11 PM

7-13 looked much better anyway

What would happen if you ran a station on 2-6 at 1MW, would you end up with a long range station or just a bunch of overloaded receivers?

1MW ERP on lowband would require a hefty xmtr power out....lowband GAIN is a problem unless your antenna is several hundred feet tall! (more than a common batwing!).....Thus the TPO has to be higher to make up for the lack of antenna gain....BIG electric bill!!! COULD be possible and would be a LONG range station.....too far in a lot of cases.....The highest powered FM that I know of was KQUE in Houston at 240KW ERP.....(it was at that before the Class C max of 100KW came along in the 60s and was grandfathered for a while)....It didnt cover much farther than the 100KWs...and when it raised its antenna, they had to back down to the current max....so it lost its "superpower" rating..a 1MW ERP (10x the Class C max) would increase range considerably.....rcvrs right at the site or close to the tower WOULD likely be overloaded......but dont count on 1MW on lowband or VHF highband....it wont happen

Piggie

02-19-09, 02:18 PM

222 actually exists?

All I get is repeater idents on 2 meters or 70 cm, with a running ragchew on 146.52 about how great it was to have all your teeth pulled. :)

I have been out of the ham action for years. But back in 1992, I built a 224 repeater and WCJB allowed me to use their studio tower. We bought a Cushcraft and SERIOIUSLY upgraded it to last up at 400 ft. We changed all the connectors to N connectors. All the harnesses to RG214, and the hanging bracket provided extra physical strength. The station gave us some 1/2 line that was on the tower slated to be taken down. The chief engineer even built the bracket for it. We only had 10 watts out but at 400 ft in flat Florida it had 30 to 40 mile consistent range to 10 to 25 watt mobiles. Few people had handhelds on that frequency to test that range but mine was good out 20 to 25 miles.

Go back to the late 1980's and FADCA (Florida Amateur Digital Comm Assoc), built out a 220 MHz backbone to connect all out 2 meter digipeaters. We had to move them all once UPS took that part of the band over.

Even back 15 years ago there were 220 FM repeaters I used in Jacksonville, several in Orlando and Tampa/St. Pete, Ocala, Gainesville. That was where I traveled. They over lapped good enough I seldom left 220 FM in my daily rounds.

Trip in VA

02-19-09, 02:18 PM

milehighmike

02-19-09, 02:37 PM

What would happen if you ran a station on 2-6 at 1MW, would you end up with a long range station or just a bunch of overloaded receivers?
I remember (vaguely) an article years ago about WLW radio operating at 500kW and farmers near its tower in Mason, Ohio having coils (don't remember if that was the right term) on top of their hen houses to pick up the RF to heat them.

ChrisC47

02-19-09, 03:28 PM

I never liked listening to it. Besides the low volume level (and WECT's lousy sound quality at the time), I was one of the "lucky" people who could hear the stereo pilot tone. Drove me bananas.

Really? Analog TV audio doesn't have a 19 kHz pilot. Maybe it was the pilot from the next station, or the 15 kHz horizontal sync getting into the audio somehow? .... does some Googling .... Oh, MTS has a 15.734 kHz pilot. Fascinating.

I remember (vaguely) an article years ago about WLW radio operating at 500kW and farmers near its tower in Mason, Ohio having coils (don't remember if that was the right term) on top of their hen houses to pick up the RF to heat them.

That's hilarious! I'd love to hear if that's true. FYI, there's work going on in nano technology to suck power to run circuits off of broadcast signals.

Here comes page 100!

joblo

02-19-09, 03:55 PM

I remember hearing a story once about an engineer at then-WHFS 99.1 in Annapolis. They shut it down for some overnight maintenance and right there, clear as day, was WSLQ.
I can believe that. I vaguely recall hearing Q99 in northern VA at least once when Annapolis was off air, don't remember if that was when it was WHFS or before that.

I don't think it's common, though. Roanoke is not a favored direction for tropo around here.

Piggie

02-19-09, 06:41 PM

I am lucky to live within the coverage of the most powerful station on the eastern seaboard. WSLQ 99.1 operates at 200 kW ERP from the top of Poor Mountain, 2000 feet above average terrain but in reality all Poor Mountain stations appear to be a lot higher up than that. Talk about a station that gets out, WSLQ can be heard basically until other stations on 99.1 start stepping on it. I remember hearing a story once about an engineer at then-WHFS 99.1 in Annapolis. They shut it down for some overnight maintenance and right there, clear as day, was WSLQ.

- Trip

Another off topic but good grandpa RF story. From 1989 to 1994 I worked for a 2 way company. We have towers in Lake City, Live Oak, and one way over by the Gulf Coast in Cross City. That was our favorite tower to play with since there was nothing around it. Very little stuff on it. There was 150 paging and 800 trunking. The FBI had abandoned 450MHz 4 bay up there. and we had a spare paging antenna up there on 150. Both antenna were at 500 ft. We used to hook everything to them. Talking to Orlando, Tampa or Tallahassee repeater was simple. Hardest thing was to find clear channels as an HT would trip everything in 100 miles plus. We hooked them to FMs, TVs, service monitors. It was just plain fun.

Yeah, the owner of the company was a ham, and his dad that founded the company was a ham.

Piggie

02-19-09, 07:07 PM

I never liked listening to it. Besides the low volume level (and WECT's lousy sound quality at the time), I was one of the "lucky" people who could hear the stereo pilot tone. Drove me bananas.

Most FM receivers have a wider bandwidth IF than a TV. The cheaper the FM receiver typically the wider the IF. So if the TV station is transmitting a 150 KHz audio it doesn't fill the IF of a FM receiver making it sound weaker than the real FM stations on the band.

moedog

02-19-09, 07:19 PM

I am lucky to live within the coverage of the most powerful station on the eastern seaboard. WSLQ 99.1 operates at 200 kW ERP from the top of Poor Mountain, 2000 feet above average terrain but in reality all Poor Mountain stations appear to be a lot higher up than that. Talk about a station that gets out, WSLQ can be heard basically until other stations on 99.1 start stepping on it. I remember hearing a story once about an engineer at then-WHFS 99.1 in Annapolis. They shut it down for some overnight maintenance and right there, clear as day, was WSLQ.

- Trip
Trip, I used to get regular reception of Q99 (meaning at least 90% of time, not tropo or skip) in north central South Carolina. I used my Channel Master all-channel TV antenna, about 30 feet off the ground with a distribution amp. Pointed north, towards Q99 (WSLQ) I was able to null-out 100 kw Foxy 99 (can't remember calls) from Whiteville-Fayetteville NC, about 60 miles away. With stereo off, I usually got a good high fidelity signal to drive my old Pioneer system, even in the middle of the day. Also caught WVTF-FM and WDBJ7 from time to time, but nothing like Q99. Poor Mountain is a great transmitter site.

ProTuber

02-19-09, 08:19 PM

Most FM receivers have a wider bandwidth IF than a TV. The cheaper the FM receiver typically the wider the IF. So if the TV station is transmitting a 150 KHz audio it doesn't fill the IF of a FM receiver making it sound weaker than the real FM stations on the band.No, it's actually a matter of the different deviations of the carrier for the 2 different services. The L+R signal for FM deviates the carrier + and - 75 kHz for 100% modulation. The L+R for TV is only 25 kHz, translating into TV sound being about 9.5 dB lower in volume compared to a radio station when received on any FM receiver.

goldrich

02-19-09, 09:31 PM

....The highest powered FM that I know of was KQUE in Houston at 240KW ERP.....(it was at that before the Class C max of 100KW came along in the 60s and was grandfathered for a while)....

WJEF-FM, later WJFM, and now WBCT-93.7, Grand Rapids, MI was 500 kW @ almost 800 ft. back in the 1960s. I used to listen to this station (in Indiana) when it was WJFM. WBCT currently operates with 320 kW. Some very interesting info at this site.........http://jeff560.tripod.com/fm-max.html

And some more info here.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WBCT

Meanwhile, WOOD-FM 105.7, Grand Rapids, operates with 265 kW @ 580 ft.

I'm still wondering if WBNS-DT 21, Columbus, OH will ever realize its request for 1700 kW!
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=71217

Steve

narkspud

02-19-09, 10:18 PM

No, it's actually a matter of the different deviations of the carrier for the 2 different services. The L+R signal for FM deviates the carrier + and - 75 kHz for 100% modulation. The L+R for TV is only 25 kHz, translating into TV sound being about 9.5 dB lower in volume compared to a radio station when received on any FM receiver.

The fun part about this is, you know LA's "fake" FM station, KSFV-CA Channel 6?

Full 75 kHz deviation on their audio, and an FM stereo subcarrier to boot, although I have yet to hear any actual stereo out of them.

And yes, when you hit 'em while channel surfing, they DO blast you back into your seat like the Maxell guy.

There has been much discussion about whether the low power rules allow them to get away with this. Nevertheless, they're doin' it.

sebenste

02-19-09, 11:11 PM

The fun part about this is, you know LA's "fake" FM station, KSFV-CA Channel 6?

Full 75 kHz deviation on their audio, and an FM stereo subcarrier to boot, although I have yet to hear any actual stereo out of them.

And yes, when you hit 'em while channel surfing, they DO blast you back into your seat like the Maxell guy.

There has been much discussion about whether the low power rules allow them to get away with this. Nevertheless, they're doin' it.

Channel 6 in Chicago, a MTV Tres affiliate, does the same thing. And they are in full stereo when you hit them with a FM radio. And loud, of course!

Falcon_77

02-19-09, 11:17 PM

I am making progress with the spreadsheet, but it doesn't seem like it at times. I am verifying the analog ends, rather than relying on the list, but ~400 stations in a short period of time is a lot more to deal with than ~220 over a few months.

1094: operating Post-Transition facilities
171: with maximized Construction Permits but otherwise ready (included above)
707: to end analog operations early (before 6/12/09)
376: have already ended (or will not commence) analog operations (included above)*

*in progress and not yet current

I posted an update with what I have done to this point.

PinkSplice

02-19-09, 11:42 PM

PinkSplice

02-20-09, 12:03 AM

I have been out of the ham action for years. But back in 1992, I built a 224 repeater and WCJB allowed me to use their studio tower. We bought a Cushcraft and SERIOIUSLY upgraded it to last up at 400 ft. We changed all the connectors to N connectors. All the harnesses to RG214, and the hanging bracket provided extra physical strength. The station gave us some 1/2 line that was on the tower slated to be taken down. The chief engineer even built the bracket for it. We only had 10 watts out but at 400 ft in flat Florida it had 30 to 40 mile consistent range to 10 to 25 watt mobiles. Few people had handhelds on that frequency to test that range but mine was good out 20 to 25 miles.

Go back to the late 1980's and FADCA (Florida Amateur Digital Comm Assoc), built out a 220 MHz backbone to connect all out 2 meter digipeaters. We had to move them all once UPS took that part of the band over.

Even back 15 years ago there were 220 FM repeaters I used in Jacksonville, several in Orlando and Tampa/St. Pete, Ocala, Gainesville. That was where I traveled. They over lapped good enough I seldom left 220 FM in my daily rounds.

One of my co-workers has effectively a 4 watt HT 800 feet up KETC-9's tower. It's fed into a Phelps-Dodge monstrosity, with huge losses. It's on 433.3, 123 tone. It's been dark for about three years. Petz is getting too old to make the climb. His VHF is on our roof, in the elevator hut (106' AGL). It's blocked to the north by the Arch, and all the 500 foot buildings, and to the west by Busch Stadium's wrought iron attenuators: the stadium lights. He claims a desperate public safety need for a downtown repeater (there are at least 2 others, all at 400+ AGL).

The feedback into his 145.27 from local sources is so strong, you would swear a PAVE PAWS was running next to it...

Back to TV. Yep, give 6 to FM. Not enough space on 222 for an additional VHF-High. 2-5 are non starters for most mobile apps/data, so an expansion of the 6 meter band *sounds* nice- but 6 meters compares to 222 as Missouri compares to Mississippi. Thank god we're not 222/MS. Or ten meters. Or worse, eleven meters. Or Twenty... :)

The median age for the KMA group on 146.52 is about 65 (charitably), with a huge pocket of guys who monitor 20 meters in the background... :)

PinkSplice

02-20-09, 12:16 AM

Who is going to pay for those stations left in 7-13 to move to UHF?

We are. Through everything we buy.

PinkSplice

02-20-09, 12:20 AM

It's a little more complicated than that. First, there were three incarnations of "channel 1" in the early days of TV:

1937-40: Channel 1 was 44-50 mHz, and it WAS used both by some of the early experimental stations, including W2XBS (which became WNBT, now WNBC-TV).

1940-45: 42-50 mHz is assigned to FM radio, and channel 1 is shifted up to 50-56 mHz. Again, a few stations did operate here, including the aforementioned WNBT.

1945+: FM is reassigned to 88-106 mHz (later extended to 108 mHz) and channel 1 was moved back to its original 44-50 mHz slot. It is this incarnation of "channel 1" that is meant when people quote the old TV history chestnut that "no station ever operated on channel 1." But in fact, there had been activity on the earlier versions of channel 1, and some of those did take place below 50 mHz.

A few stations did have CPs for the post-war channel 1 (it was more or less intended for lower-power "community" stations), but they never went on-air there. Many FMs were slow to move out of the band, plus it was becoming obvious that there were greater issues of noise, interference, skip, etc. at those frequencies there that made TV with its AM video signal particularly problematic. Yes, the need for additional VHF land mobile frequencies (and not just in the Northeast) was a concurrent factor, but it was not the only motivation (nor necessarily the primary one) for eliminating channel 1 from the TV dial.

Your explanation is correct:

http://www.tech-notes.tv/History&Trivia/Channel%20One/Channel_1.htm

I think the Brits and Germans used lower freq's in the early days. Lots of problems. And not just with Baird's mechanical method. Air talent was forced into *horrible* makeup, and sometimes, exposure to poison.

Hey, that hasn't changed all that much....

PinkSplice

02-20-09, 12:26 AM

dr1394

02-20-09, 01:12 AM

Looks like WNEP shut down on Tuesday but received so many calls that they turned the analog transmitter back on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRXrj5XX-is

http://www.wnep.com/wnep-howtoreceivewnepdigitals-7508882,0,4685367.story

Ron

Piggie

02-20-09, 01:19 AM

The median age for the KMA group on 146.52 is about 65 (charitably), with a huge pocket of guys who monitor 20 meters in the background... :)

That is about right. I don't even get on the air anymore but keep my license current.

Somewhat in the same vain. Talking about old channels, etc.

What the heck is really on 216 to 200 MHz ? At one point a bunch of us in the late 1980s had the FCC consider a small ham band at either 218 to 219 MHz for digital only, no voice, no cw. It had to ASCII, Packet or some type of "true" digital.

Well they at least considered it but it died fast. As far as we could tell those 4 MHz are not used at all.

Piggie

02-20-09, 01:25 AM

dattier

02-20-09, 01:53 AM

Channel 6 in Chicago, a MTV Tres affiliate ... ... dropped MTV Tr3s for Azteca America back at the beginning of November.

Dr Touchtone

02-20-09, 12:35 PM

I remember (vaguely) an article years ago about WLW radio operating at 500kW and farmers near its tower in Mason, Ohio having coils (don't remember if that was the right term) on top of their hen houses to pick up the RF to heat them.

That's with an AM station (and Ive walked THRU the old 500KW WLW transmitter 10 years ago!)....ground mounted towers (and what a tower...an old Blaw-Knox ~700ft)....but with a TV station, the center of radiation is HIGH in the air...would not be the same issue....

Dr Touchtone

02-20-09, 12:40 PM

That is about right. I don't even get on the air anymore but keep my license current.

Somewhat in the same vain. Talking about old channels, etc.

What the heck is really on 216 to 200 MHz ? At one point a bunch of us in the late 1980s had the FCC consider a small ham band at either 218 to 219 MHz for digital only, no voice, no cw. It had to ASCII, Packet or some type of "true" digital.

Well they at least considered it but it died fast. As far as we could tell those 4 MHz are not used at all.

The LPRS (Low Power Radio Service) is there, but I dont know WHO uses that....along with IWCS (Inland Waterway Communication System) which covers the Intercoastal Canal and the Miss River primarily...also hams did get the allocation there....packet only, MUST be coordinated with a commercial freq coordinator and certain restrictions apply.

Dr Touchtone

02-20-09, 12:43 PM

The fun part about this is, you know LA's "fake" FM station, KSFV-CA Channel 6?

Full 75 kHz deviation on their audio, and an FM stereo subcarrier to boot, although I have yet to hear any actual stereo out of them.

And yes, when you hit 'em while channel surfing, they DO blast you back into your seat like the Maxell guy.

There has been much discussion about whether the low power rules allow them to get away with this. Nevertheless, they're doin' it.

Part 73 rules do not allow 75kHz deviation on any TV signal and the stereo rules for TV are specific and not the same as FM...what they are doing is illegal and the FCC just hasnt gotten off their butts to fine them.

sebenste

02-20-09, 05:45 PM

... dropped MTV Tr3s for Azteca America back at the beginning of November.

That's right, because WOCK-CA channel 13 is now carrying something else. Thanks for the correction!

dattier

02-21-09, 12:59 AM

That's right, because WOCK-CA channel 13 is now carrying something else. Thanks for the correction!You're welcome (feels funny, usually I'm thanking you). WOCK-CA is carrying CaribeVision.

CHeath

02-21-09, 12:07 PM

Look out. Somebody's site got a mention in the Post:cool:

Faster Forward
(Some) Analog TV Broadcasts Died This Week
By Rob Pegoraro in his Washington Post blog

As midnight arrived Tuesday night, analog television broadcasting ended on Baltimore's CW affiliate WNUV much as any other night of programming might have concluded: with a recording of "The Star-Spangled Banner," followed by a test pattern.

But a few moments afterward, an all-about-digital-TV infomercial kicked in, counseling viewers that "if you're seeing this message, this television set has not yet been updated to digital" and offering instructions on how to hook up a converter box and fine-tune your reception. Several minutes later, a Spanish-language version of this ad aired, with subtitles in both Spanish and English.

WNUV's digital signal, on channel 54.1, had to have looked a million times better than the snowy analog mess on my TV. But from 40 miles away, awful analog reception on 54 equated to nonexistent digital reception on 54.1; a tabletop antenna just couldn't pick up that signal well enough to give a Sony LCD's tuner anything to work with.

How-to shows about the DTV transition are all you can hope to watch on WNUV and the 420 other stations that terminated their analog programming by midnight Tuesday.

News reports so far point to considerable confusion before this week's partial analog shutoff -- but relatively few calls for help afterward in such locales as Ft. Myers, Fla., Minneapolis and San Diego.
News reports so far point to considerable confusion before this week's partial analog shutoff -- but relatively few calls for help afterward in such locales as Ft. Myers, Fla., Minneapolis and San Diego.

(The digital transition isn't over for all the viewers of those stations -- as an overdue, interactive signal-strength map on the Federal Communications Commission's site reveals, some will upgrade their digital signals in the coming months. More technically-inclined viewers can find additional details at a volunteer-run database, RabbitEars. (http://rabbitears.info))

The D.C. area was largely exempt from this week's partial digital transition -- WNUV was the only early switcher to provide even a minimally watchable analog signal in my home -- but many other parts of the country saw more than one analog channel vanish from the airwaves. So how'd all that go for you? Post your own report in the comments...

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/fasterforward/2009/02/some_analog_tv_broadcasts_died.html?wprss=fasterforward