The official final DTV Table Of Allotments/channel change thread [Text View] - Page 14

TiVoFishMan

03-18-09, 01:15 PM

The Tribune stations have yet to file (or at least have yet to be posted).

That explains why WGNO and WNOL in New Orleans have no filing yet.

The relatively few stations ending analog operations early is a disappointment.

But not a surprise. The FCC's rules seem to me to be designed to make early termination difficult. Lot's of hoops to jump through to be approved to do so.

I know from good sources that the above mentioned WGNO and WNOL can't wait to transition. They chose to leave their drastically low power post-Katrina analog jury rigged STA transmitters up until transition, and even though both channels had full power DTV transmitters operating before Katrina, chose to do a flash-cut of WGNO (an ABC affiliate, by the way) after the damage from Katrina (reasons too complex to go into here). There's no digital ABC affiliate on the air in New Orleans as a result! (Albeit, the ABC content is being carried as a 720p sub-channel on the WNOL DTV transmitter).

Countour comparison of WGNO analog, STA vs. Licensed on page 10 of this filing. (http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=411080&formid=911&q_num=5370)

And the same comparison for WNOL. Also page 10. (http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=411082&formid=911&q_num=5370)

They are announcing on the air and on their web site that they will transition June 12 (even though they haven't filed yet).

The fact that they made the decision to wait until the bitter end, despite their hardships is testament to height of the the hurdles that they decided it's not worth it to jump.

baker60

03-18-09, 02:01 PM

That explains why WGNO and WNOL in New Orleans have no filing yet.

But not a surprise. The FCC's rules seem to me to be designed to make early termination difficult. Lot's of hoops to jump through to be approved to do so.

I know from good sources that the above mentioned WGNO and WNOL can't wait to transition. They chose to leave their drastically low power post-Katrina analog jury rigged STA transmitters up until transition, and even though both channels had full power DTV transmitters operating before Katrina, chose to do a flash-cut of WGNO (an ABC affiliate, by the way) after the damage from Katrina (reasons too complex to go into here). There's no digital ABC affiliate on the air in New Orleans as a result! (Albeit, the ABC content is being carried as a 720p sub-channel on the WNOL DTV transmitter).

Countour comparison of WGNO analog, STA vs. Licensed on page 10 of this filing. (http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=411080&formid=911&q_num=5370)

And the same comparison for WNOL. Also page 10. (http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=411082&formid=911&q_num=5370)

They are announcing on the air and on their web site that they will transition June 12 (even though they haven't filed yet).

The fact that they made the decision to wait until the bitter end, despite their hardships is testament to height of the the hurdles that they decided it's not worth it to jump.

How many HD channels( or subchannels) can one station transmit on its assigned channel?

Scooper

03-18-09, 03:27 PM

How many HD channels( or subchannels) can one station transmit on its assigned channel?

In theory - as many as subchannels as they want to do. Practically - probably two 720p is pushing it before PQ issues are too bad.

TiVoFishMan

03-18-09, 03:35 PM

In theory - as many as subchannels as they want to do. Practically - probably two 720p is pushing it before PQ issues are too bad.

That being said, in the case of WGNO/WNOL, they are relegating WNOL to be 480i until the transition, and WGNO is in 720p (even though it's being carried on WNOL's transmitter and license).

This makes us local viewers that much more anxious for the transition.

Before Katrina, I watched "Veronica Mars" in glorious 1080i on WNOL. Now WNOL is 480i only until June 12. :(

(Note: I watched it on a different TV set than now. I lost everything to Katrina myself. Thank God for good insurance!)

sustorm

03-18-09, 04:29 PM

Does anyone have a list of when enhanced nightlight analog channels will be ceasing analog? I am particularly interested in WBNG out of binghamton ny thanks!

DaveFormula

03-18-09, 09:09 PM

Does anyone know if after this whole DTV transition is over and all stations are on their final channel assignments if they will adopt the new channel number as their advertised channel. It seems foolish to call a station that is on VHF now, as a digital station, by its previous UHF, analogue, channel assignment and vice-versa.

Trip in VA

03-18-09, 09:20 PM

DaveFormula

03-18-09, 09:39 PM

Virtual channels are here to stay. It prevents confusion.

- Trip
How does that prevent confusion when you have a VHF 11 station calling itself TV 42? It causes more confusion when trying to choose an antenna. Or how about a station on UHF 31 calling itself TV 2? A lowband VHF antenna does not work too well on UHF.

jtbell

03-18-09, 09:41 PM

DaveFormula

03-18-09, 09:43 PM

Trip,
Is "Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand..." - Rush "Witch Hunt" a quote from Rush Limbaugh? Sounds too logical and open minded to be from him.

Trip in VA

03-18-09, 09:44 PM

How does that prevent confusion when you have a VHF 11 station calling itself TV 42? It causes more confusion when trying to choose an antenna. Or how about a station on UHF 31 calling itself TV 2? A lowband VHF antenna does not work too well on UHF.

You set up your channels once. You watch those channels thousands of times. Just imagine a senior citizen being told to completely relearn their channel lineup.

- Trip

Trip in VA

03-18-09, 09:44 PM

Trip,
Is "Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand..." - Rush "Witch Hunt" a quote from Rush Limbaugh? Sounds too logical and open minded to be from him.

No, Rush: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rush_(band)

- Trip

DaveFormula

03-18-09, 09:47 PM

No, Rush: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rush_(band)

- Trip

Figured it had to be a quote from something other than the man that wants the president to fail.

Trip in VA

03-18-09, 09:49 PM

Figured it had to be a quote from something other than the man that wants the president to fail.

:D

Rush is the greatest band ever, if you ask me.

- Trip

DaveFormula

03-18-09, 09:53 PM

You set up your channels once. You watch those channels thousands of times. Just imagine a senior citizen being told to completely relearn their channel lineup.

- Trip

That still doesn't solve the VHF vs. UHF antenna issue. Does it? Besides, old people and everyone else can deal with it. They have cable don't they? You know cable rarely puts channels on the same number as their off air channel, especially when dealing with UHF stations.

This whole virtual channel thing is OK as a crutch for now, as there is already enough confusion. But... eventually I would think that channel branding a little bit more in line with the reality of the matter should be the standard. If a broadcaster wanted to keep the same channel number they could have opted to return to their previous channel assignment post-transition, right? Well, at least in most cases.

DaveFormula

03-18-09, 09:54 PM

:D

Rush is the greatest band ever, if you ask me.

- Trip
Actually, it would be a tie between The Cure and Depeche Mode. Well no actually, Depeche Mode.

Trip in VA

03-18-09, 09:58 PM

That still doesn't solve the VHF vs. UHF antenna issue. Does it? Besides, old people and everyone else can deal with it. They have cable don't they? You know cable rarely puts channels on the same number as their off air channel, especially when dealing with UHF stations.

Not the old people in my area. They have OTA. Which of these options is easier:

1. "Okay, we have to put up a new combo UHF/VHF antenna for you, but when you're done, all your channels are in the same place, just with a -1 after them."

2. "Okay, we have to put up a new combo UHF/VHF antenna for you, and when you're done, your channels will be as follows:

Channel 7 is now 18.
Channel 10 is now 30.
Channel 13 is on 34 for a while but will be on 13 later.
Channel 15 is on channel 3 but might be moving to channel 26.
Channel 21 is on channel 20.
Channel 27 is on channel 17.
Channel 38 is on channel 36."

My dad has lived in Virginia for 15 years after having spent his whole life in New Jersey. He still occasionally calls CBS "channel 2." You don't break habits like that quickly, and changing channel numbers on people is a great way to cause anger and frustration.

He set up the antenna once. He changes the channel tens of times daily. Which has the larger impact on day-to-day TV watching?

This whole virtual channel thing is OK as a crutch for now, as there is already enough confusion. But... eventually I would think that channel branding a little bit more in line with the reality of the matter should be the standard. If a broadcaster wanted to keep the same channel number they could have opted to return to their previous channel assignment post-transition, right? Well, at least in most cases.

Some cases, but not all.

The matter is settled. The vast majority of stations are keeping their virtual channel numbers to prevent consumer confusion.

- Trip

dreater

03-18-09, 09:58 PM

You set up your channels once. You watch those channels thousands of times. Just imagine a senior citizen being told to completely relearn their channel lineup.
While I don't disagree with your general argument, I think you're overstating it a bit.

When your senior citizen relocates - to Florida, for example - he's going to completely relearn his channel lineup. When your grandmother moves from her home to an assisted living facility in the next town or county, she may well confront a completely different cable provider, with different channels, possibly carrying different "local" stations. Again, time to completely relearn the lineup.

And they can handle it, for the most part. It may be as untechnical as learning that "my show isn't on 7 any more; it's on 36." It may be more knowledgeable - "ABC is on channel 9 here, on our cable system, but it's really channel 22, out of Podunk."

My guess is that the decision to go with virtual channels is really about branding - and not so much about not confusing people as about not obsoleting stations' marketing investments. If that's the case, we may see more stations, over time, seeking to change their virtual channels to sync with their RF channels - for instance, when ownership changes hands, when a network affiliation changes, etc. - at points when the sunk costs in brand marketing are pretty much being tossed out anyway. I would particularly expect to see this in cases where stations with "high" virtual channels are on "lower" RF channels - "lower" channels being more attractive, because people tend to browse up the channels more than down. Already, we see cable channels willing to pay to "improve" their channel position; I wouldn't be surprised to see the same kind of thing in local OTA markets.

Trip in VA

03-18-09, 10:01 PM

People expect that when moving to a new place. They don't expect it when a complete change in technology is forced upon them, often with undesired results like occasional dropouts.

My dad is seriously upset about how choppy and useless my local PBS is. I can see him throwing the boxes out the window if he'd had to relearn the channel positions. He'd say "with all this technology, you'd think they could at least preserve the channel numbers."

- Trip

TalkingRat

03-18-09, 10:29 PM

Dr Touchtone

03-18-09, 11:09 PM

However, 80% of OTA is indoor antenna, where real frequency still matters.

ETA: that is not the only confusing thing the FCC does. What annoys me most is identifying stations by the city where they are licensed, rather than where they transmit.

Heck the FCC has been letting radio do that for decades!!! And NOT even try to SERVE the COL......(can we say rimshots??) TV doesnt have that many...few viewers in cars :) However, IDing the station by the COL does make sense...provided the tower site is not 50-75 miles away!!! ( in some cases, they are!)

Trip in VA

03-19-09, 12:13 AM

KRXI wants a fill-in translator on 21.

- Trip

PinkSplice

03-19-09, 12:29 AM

Not the old people in my area. They have OTA. Which of these options is easier:

1. "Okay, we have to put up a new combo UHF/VHF antenna for you, but when you're done, all your channels are in the same place, just with a -1 after them."

2. "Okay, we have to put up a new combo UHF/VHF antenna for you, and when you're done, your channels will be as follows:

Channel 7 is now 18.
Channel 10 is now 30.
Channel 13 is on 34 for a while but will be on 13 later.
Channel 15 is on channel 3 but might be moving to channel 26.
Channel 21 is on channel 20.
Channel 27 is on channel 17.
Channel 38 is on channel 36."

My dad has lived in Virginia for 15 years after having spent his whole life in New Jersey. He still occasionally calls CBS "channel 2." You don't break habits like that quickly, and changing channel numbers on people is a great way to cause anger and frustration.

He set up the antenna once. He changes the channel tens of times daily. Which has the larger impact on day-to-day TV watching?

Some cases, but not all.

The matter is settled. The vast majority of stations are keeping their virtual channel numbers to prevent consumer confusion.

- Trip

This will be fun when the home shopping and religious stations discover 300 W VHF-LD's. On the major's former VHF channels. Or, even full-power stations, for the well heeled. The target audiences won't be bitching about LOS due to impulse noise. Elvis willed it. :)

I can see cranky persons/evil competitors building out CP's, just to spite the original holders. ABC 11, St. Louis, anyone (Sinclair)? Larry Rice moves KNLC-DT from 14 to 4, cutting his power bill by at least 2/3. Belo's collective heads explode.

I want this to happen, so KSDK's promos have the kindergartners' finger's flashing "*Three*-Five Number One"... :)

After a few of these, this may be the trigger for the NAB to push for the abandonment of VHF-Low.

PinkSplice

03-19-09, 12:35 AM

Heck the FCC has been letting radio do that for decades!!! And NOT even try to SERVE the COL......(can we say rimshots??) TV doesnt have that many...few viewers in cars :) However, IDing the station by the COL does make sense...provided the tower site is not 50-75 miles away!!! ( in some cases, they are!)

See: WPXS-DT's coverage pattern.

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1251455.html

It's on a cell phone tower. Notice the bare coverage of the city-of-license. One Megawatt ERP at 298 feet/91 meters.

Trip in VA

03-19-09, 01:15 AM

Piggie

03-19-09, 03:36 AM

from the 9news.com site:

"KUSA-TV and KTVD-TV, Denver, Colorado, intends to permanently cease analog television service at 12:01am on April 16, 2009, a date earlier than the nation's new June 12, 2009 DTV transition date, subject to FCC approval. No analog signal will be broadcast beginning April 16, 2009 and KUSA-TV and KTVD-TV will finally be able to increase their digital operations to the full-power digital signal that has been authorized for the benefit of Denver viewers."

I like their attitude, "...benefit of Denver viewers."

FCC posted their summaries of analog shutdown. They broke it out by June 12 (927) vs. before June 12 (158):

June 12
http://www.fcc.gov/DA-09-589A3.xls
http://www.fcc.gov/DA-09-589A3.pdf

before June 12
http://www.fcc.gov/DA-09-589A2.xls
http://www.fcc.gov/DA-09-589A2.pdf

Arg!!! My nemesis WFTV (ABC) has decided to spew carbon emmissions from it's analog blow torch to the bitter end. To the benefit of their viewers they are wiping out my area from any reliable NBC until they turn that infernal blow torch off forever!

EDIT Update, should have looked, WFTV will in fact go off 6 hours early! yahoo!! http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101301545&formid=910&fac_num=72076 in the Afternoon. If I am darn lucky it will be 12 hours early. I need to email them again to let them know how much I want them to shut that dang thing off ASAP, lol.

Short live analog! :@)

Piggie

03-19-09, 03:48 AM

Trip or Falcon if you have not looked up the Gainesville, FL DMA

WOGX Evening
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101300538&formid=910&fac_num=70651

WUFT Morning
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101300988&formid=910&fac_num=69440

I guess obviously on June 12. At least it's down to 90 days or so again until Mission Accomplished.

Piggie

03-19-09, 04:06 AM

Virtual channels are here to stay. It prevents confusion.

- Trip

You and I agree most of the time. But these virtual channels I think are confusing the needed antenna issue along with so many moving from UHF to VHF.

Moot point now so I will give you an extra :D , since you handed out a few.

Piggie

03-19-09, 04:14 AM

And virtual channels allow stations to change their "real" channels without having to spend a fortune advertising their new channel number. All they have to do is tell people to re-scan. Of course, they can do that on the air only before they actually change channels... :p

I think it would have been better if the ATSC standard had been designed to use arbitrary character strings of up to, say, 20 characters, as the primary channel identifier. All receivers would be required to display those strings in some kind of selectable menu. Then instead of "25.1" I'd see "ABC Columbia", which is what they brand themselves as on screen anyway, instead of with their (virtual) channel number.

Exactly. No one except techie's pay attention to call signs. Like FM stations Rock 103 or Wild Country 97, etc.

I think there is a 7 character limit to name a station?? If so that isn't enough.

But I agree, they should have dropped channel numbers or used their real channel. After next year or sooner there will not be much channel changing except in towers falling, etc.

Or if it's like my TV's, some channels won't come in on their PSIP channel at all, but yet it works right on all my other TVs. My USB tuner only uses real channel numbers. Then my living room TV, sometimes you can do an add a channel on virtual, but sometimes you have to add the channel on it's real or it can't find it.

But I have hope by 2020 the recession will be history and digital transition will be complete :@)

Larry Kenney

03-19-09, 04:15 AM

I replaced the mouseover menu system on Rabbit Ears. I still have some work to do; I'm just too wiped out right now to finish it. Thoughts on what's there so far?

I think it's done now. I'd like to get Networks and Owners back onto the menu, though the two are available on the Searches page...

- Trip
My hat is off to you, Trip, for the amazing amount of information on RabbitEars! Way to go! It has made it so easy to get to station information and to records on the FCC site.

Larry
SF

coyoteaz

03-19-09, 04:19 AM

Larry Kenney

03-19-09, 04:21 AM

Out of all the stations in the SF-Oakland- San Jose, Sacramento and Monterey-Salinas DMAs, only 6 ended analog service on 2/17 and only one, KQET 25, has requested an early date of May 9. The rest are all hanging on until June 12.

KICU in San Jose, CA, has requested STA to move their digital operation early from channel 52 to 36, their old analog channel they vacated last month. They want to go with 500 kW and a side mounted antenna at 2100 feet HAAT now, and then install a new transmitter and switch to full power and an antenna at the top of the tower at 2251 feet HAAT at a later date.

Larry
SF

Piggie

03-19-09, 04:22 AM

You set up your channels once. You watch those channels thousands of times. Just imagine a senior citizen being told to completely relearn their channel lineup.

- Trip

It was just a decade ago that both Jacksonville and more so Tampa played musical networks. My parents at the time were in the 80's and could keep the changes in Tampa straight and I couldn't. Then I didn't live there but I would have to ask them, now what channel is ABC news on now?

I would be more worried about the crack hos that haven't yet bought a converter box. :@)

But you would not set up the channels once. The Mantra lately is scan early and often to catch channels changing. I content remembering to scan if suddenly a channel disappears is harder to remember than the channels changing frequencies. I still haven't figure out why twice so far my living room TV has lost the info on WNBW and I have to add it back. Several times I just went outside and turned the antenna to WTLV because I though conditions had changed, when really it was my TV.

quango

03-19-09, 05:43 AM

I'll be interested to see if the FCC opens things up a bit more in the future to let stations choose a different location to remap. Imagine if a network like ion started mapping all their O&Os to channel 99 and convinced their affiliates to do the same. There's a lot of marketing possibilities to having your channel available nationwide on 99, and unlike most marketing decisions, it actually has a positive impact on the viewer. Alternatively, all the UHF stations that promote themselves on-air using their cable channel could actually map to that channel (assuming there's no local conflict) and viewers wouldn't suffer the extra layer of confusion of trying to figure out where to find the station that calls itself channel 13 on-air, maps to 7 OTA, and physically broadcasts on 27.

The FCC can already allocate virtual channels >=70 on a nationwide basis (see here (http://www.atsc.org/standards/virtual_channels.php)), although only Tribune and the defunct US DTV seem to have received allocations so far. Certainly a new/rebranded minor OTA network (like ion, which goes through brands like Kleenex) or one of the subchannel networks like ".2" and "This" could take advantage of this, though, especially if they could get a major cable operator to also agree to use the numbers.

They could also beg the FCC for virtual 1 or virtual 37, but I'd imagine incumbent broadcasters wouldn't take kindly to that.

jsmar

03-19-09, 06:36 AM

They could also beg the FCC for virtual 1 or virtual 37, but I'd imagine incumbent broadcasters wouldn't take kindly to that.

Certainly Channel 1 would be a prize, but what is so special about 37? I know that RF channel 37 is allocated for another use so there are no "real" OTA channel 37's, but most people are not aware of that. I don't think anyone particularly cares about 37 or would think that it is particularly special.

jhe

03-19-09, 08:39 AM

The FCC can already allocate virtual channels >=70 on a nationwide basis (see here (http://www.atsc.org/standards/virtual_channels.php)), although only Tribune and the defunct US DTV seem to have received allocations so far. Certainly a new/rebranded minor OTA network (like ion, which goes through brands like Kleenex) or one of the subchannel networks like ".2" and "This" could take advantage of this, though, especially if they could get a major cable operator to also agree to use the numbers.

They could also beg the FCC for virtual 1 or virtual 37, but I'd imagine incumbent broadcasters wouldn't take kindly to that.

How's this supposed to work. I get around 3 or 4 ION stations.
It would be super confusing to have all on the same number.

Trip in VA

03-19-09, 08:52 AM

But you would not set up the channels once. The Mantra lately is scan early and often to catch channels changing. I content remembering to scan if suddenly a channel disappears is harder to remember than the channels changing frequencies. I still haven't figure out why twice so far my living room TV has lost the info on WNBW and I have to add it back. Several times I just went outside and turned the antenna to WTLV because I though conditions had changed, when really it was my TV.

But people set up their antennas once. They're telling people to rescan for new subchannels; once the antenna is set up, rescanning shouldn't make the channels they're physically receiving go away.

Your situation is rather unique and I feel like we should play a game of "wait and see" if WFTV going away cleans up your reception issues.

The FCC can already allocate virtual channels >=70 on a nationwide basis (see here (http://www.atsc.org/standards/virtual_channels.php)), although only Tribune and the defunct US DTV seem to have received allocations so far. Certainly a new/rebranded minor OTA network (like ion, which goes through brands like Kleenex) or one of the subchannel networks like ".2" and "This" could take advantage of this, though, especially if they could get a major cable operator to also agree to use the numbers.

The problem with that is there are a number of tuners that don't handle split mapping very well. I have a receiver that will not show me WAHU-LD because they're mapping their subchannels to 27-1, 27-2, and 19-2. I imagine the same thing would happen if I had Fox in Richmond on 35-1 and This on 93-1 or something. (Not that I can actually receive 35-1, it's just the nearing This affiliate.)

Also, Three Angels Broadcasting has channel 73. I attempted to e-mail someone about that list and asked if it was up to date but of course nobody ever got back to me.

And I still haven't heard any opinions about my updated menu system. :p Thoughts?

- Trip

Trip in VA

03-19-09, 08:54 AM

My hat is off to you, Trip, for the amazing amount of information on RabbitEars! Way to go! It has made it so easy to get to station information and to records on the FCC site.

Larry
SF

Glad you enjoy it. :)

And to you or anyone else, I'm still taking suggestions to make it better. So don't anyone hesitate if you have any ideas for me.

- Trip

Falcon_77

03-19-09, 11:50 AM

KRXI wants a fill-in translator on 21.

- Trip

I'm still wondering how CECB's, etc. are going to work when multiple stations try to map to the same virtual channel number? Both 44 and 21 in this case, at least according to the contour.

Also on the subject of virtual channels, when will the FCC start allowing stations to identify themselves as channel 1 again? It seems like a waste of a single digit right now, but I suppose many people don't mind entering 3 numbers vs. 1 these days.

Trip in VA

03-19-09, 01:08 PM

The FCC issued an NPRM for KDCU's relocation to 31 today.

- Trip

dattier

03-19-09, 01:25 PM

I'm still wondering how CECB's, etc. are going to work when multiple stations try to map to the same virtual channel number? Both 44 and 21 in this case, at least according to the contour.

In Chicago, WLS (analog 7) has DT52, which is out of core, and will be moving its ATSC signal to RF7 when they end analog on June 12. In November, they had some tests of ATSC on RF7, during which they cut off analog but kept WLS-DT going on 52.

All the CECBs I had at the time (a Magnovax TB100MG9, a May 2009 Zenith DTT901, a Digital Stream DTX9950, and an 0830 build Zinwell ZAT-970A) were very happy to have two 7.1's, two 7.2's, and two 7.3's.

Now, since I got indistinguishable reception from both RF7 and RF52 and they were carrying the same programming, I couldn't tell which of them was which on the Magnavox or the Zenith. (The DTX9950's Edit Channel function shows you the physical channel numbers, so on that box I could tell; for the ZAT-970A, I deleted both channels, scanned RF7 back in, renamed its channels, and then scanned RF52 back in, so I could tell on that box too.)

Normally that won't be an issue, because the two channels with the same major and minor virtual numbers will be carrying different programming, and you can tell them apart that way.

Anyhow, we have three televisions with ATSC tuners, and two behaved as the CECBs did. The third came out with only one 7.1, one 7.2, and on 7.3; it doesn't support a nondestructive scan, and I'm guessing that when I did a full scan, since it went through the physical channels in order form 2 through 69, the channels on RF52 were clobbering those on RF7.

quango

03-19-09, 02:57 PM

Certainly Channel 1 would be a prize, but what is so special about 37? I know that RF channel 37 is allocated for another use so there are no "real" OTA channel 37's, but most people are not aware of that. I don't think anyone particularly cares about 37 or would think that it is particularly special.

I'd imagine anyone who was on 38-69 wouldn't be happy to be bumped down the order. I'll grant it's not the "prize" that channel 1 is, though.

TiVoFishMan

03-19-09, 03:17 PM

Looks like Tribune's analog termination notices finally came in overnight.

The two Tribune owned stations in my DMA, WGNO and WNOL say 6/12 evening, as expected.

Falcon_77

03-19-09, 03:27 PM

jsmar

03-19-09, 07:19 PM

How were the second set identified? Are we talking about:

7.1, 7.1, 7.2, 7.2, 7.3, 7.3

or was it:

7.1, 7.2, 7.3, 7.4, 7.5, 7.6

or something else?

The Zenith DTT900 does it 7.1, 7.1, 7.2, 7.2, 7.3, 7.3. My DTVpal does it differently. If it finds a second 7.1, for example, it will map it to 70.1. However, it will only do that if the tsid is different (i.e. you can receive stations from two different DMA's that have some overlap in the virtual channel numbers). If the identical virtual channel also has the same tsid, i.e. you are getting the station from a translator, then the DTVpal says it is mapping the channel to 70.1 during the scan, but there won't be a 70.1 once the scan is completed. In that case you only get one 7.1, and I can't remember which one you get.

It is difficult to work around the above issue with the DTVpal. The only way of getting around the problem is to manually add the channel you want. However, the DTVpal won't let you start will an empty set of channels, so the workaround is to pull the antenna wire at the right time during the scan.

Piggie

03-19-09, 07:23 PM

But people set up their antennas once. They're telling people to rescan for new subchannels; once the antenna is set up, rescanning shouldn't make the channels they're physically receiving go away.

Your situation is rather unique and I feel like we should play a game of "wait and see" if WFTV going away cleans up your reception issues.

And I still haven't heard any opinions about my updated menu system. :p Thoughts?

- Trip

But if the tower changes due to a tower failure and they set up temp antenna, etc. then the antenna would have to move.

I think nothing is perfect, and this discussion probably doesn't have that one key ingredient to make everyone agree. To me using the RF channel would cure two stations using 9.1 for their virtual channel number. I know WNBW should have never been allowed to use 9.1 and I agree on that! They should be 29.1 even though they never used that frequency.

I AM playing a game to see if WFTV will fix my WNBW problems.

However after months of reception, here is what I think is happening this week ( :@) )

At night and sometimes during the day, yes, WFTV is wiping out WNBW. Anytime of day I turn the antenna at WFTV there is digital snow on their analog signal. Neighbors that watched WFTV around here asked me back in Oct or so, did WFTV already reduce power? I said no, that is the Gainesville station on CH9 interfering with WFTV analog (so it cuts both ways).

If you plug in my exact location, you will see that there is only 2 db difference between the two stations 9.1 and 9.0. I think TVFool still uses 3.2 KW for WNBW so it's really a little higher (~2db), which only makes things more confusing.

I can't see a hint of 9.0 pointing at WNBW in the day but if even turn off WNBW a little bit I can see WFTV in the snow. So I think the reason I can't see if is not so much my front to back ratio, but WNBW blocking, and obviously some combination.

Now to add weird to weirdness. WNBW even at 3.2 kw on tvfool, shows 8 db or so better signal than WTLV out of Jax (Jacksonville). Yet 80% of the time WTLV has a better signal. So either there are things close to me that are different, WFTV really is a problem. or? nothing is perfect, in particular that danged NBC network! :@)

I like the new menu, I think. I like that it doesn't jump all over trying to get to a submenu. The menu below it seems too small of print for old pigs.

Over all I am not sure to say if I like it better or not, probably leaning toward better.

Piggie

03-19-09, 07:26 PM

Glad you enjoy it. :)

And to you or anyone else, I'm still taking suggestions to make it better. So don't anyone hesitate if you have any ideas for me.

- Trip

You need a page where you can raise the power of a station, so it remotely hooks to their equipment.

If that possible in java?

Piggie :@)

Piggie

03-19-09, 07:30 PM

I'd imagine anyone who was on 38-69 wouldn't be happy to be bumped down the order. I'll grant it's not the "prize" that channel 1 is, though.

And I always thought 69 was the prize channel :@)

Trip in VA

03-19-09, 08:49 PM

You need a page where you can raise the power of a station, so it remotely hooks to their equipment.

If that possible in java?

Piggie :@)

I wish! I never want to use Java again, but if I could do that, you better believe I would! :D

But if the tower changes due to a tower failure and they set up temp antenna, etc. then the antenna would have to move.

Most aux antennas are pretty close to the primary. Besides, tower collapses, while more common than I had thought when I first got interested in broadcasting, are rather rare. I would imagine once the excess weight of side-mounted antennas comes off the towers, collapses will decrease in frequency.

I think nothing is perfect, and this discussion probably doesn't have that one key ingredient to make everyone agree. To me using the RF channel would cure two stations using 9.1 for their virtual channel number. I know WNBW should have never been allowed to use 9.1 and I agree on that! They should be 29.1 even though they never used that frequency.

Agreed. 29-1 was their analog channel, had they built it, and they should have mapped to it. Just as WGFL should still be on 53-1, even if they aren't.

(Snipped your comments so as to not have a large length of quoted text on the page :D)

That's very interesting. I certainly hope it bodes well and you end up with WNBW once WFTV analog goes away. It sounds somewhat promising.

I like the new menu, I think. I like that it doesn't jump all over trying to get to a submenu. The menu below it seems too small of print for old pigs.

I bumped the size up on the text. Does that help any?

Over all I am not sure to say if I like it better or not, probably leaning toward better.

Okay. :)

- Trip

narkspud

03-19-09, 10:19 PM

FWIW ... I am sitting in Tustin, CA watching a rock-solid signal from KGTV 10.1 San Diego, 88 miles away.

I'm also getting almost (but not quite) watchable analog pictures from 3 and 12, and our pals at KSFV-CA (6) are getting creamed by co-channel. So obviously the atmosphere is doing interesting things this evening.

My point is, I'm no longer that concerned about the performance of High VHF.

(PS - Interesting number for the KZSD-LP relay on the subchannel ... 10.15 .)

dattier

03-20-09, 02:59 AM

All the CECBs I had at the time (a Magnovax TB100MG9, a May 2009 Zenith DTT901, a Digital Stream DTX9950, and an 0830 build Zinwell ZAT-970A) were very happy to have two 7.1's, two 7.2's, and two 7.3's.

How were the second set identified? Are we talking about:

7.1, 7.1, 7.2, 7.2, 7.3, 7.3

or was it:

7.1, 7.2, 7.3, 7.4, 7.5, 7.6

or something else?

There were 7.1, 7.1, 7.2, 7.2, 7.3, and 7.3.

I would have thought that "two 7.1's, two 7.2's, and two 7.3's" made that clear. Also, renumbering the minor channels differently from the dictates of the PSIP data surely would be a violation of the ATSC protocol, wouldn't it?

Piggie

03-20-09, 07:20 AM

Most aux antennas are pretty close to the primary. Besides, tower collapses, while more common than I had thought when I first got interested in broadcasting, are rather rare. I would imagine once the excess weight of side-mounted antennas comes off the towers, collapses will decrease in frequency.

I don't think as many station have back up antennas as they did at one point. When I worked at WCJB we took our Ch20 antenna off the studio tower (original transmit location) so sell more antenna space. We didn't even sell to FM stations at that time as we had so many 2 way and paging clients. (I even had a paging antenna on that tower at one time).

The plan was if we ever lost the main tower was to run very low power back on the studio tower since it would hit most of Gainesville. I have not idea what their emergency plan is these days.

Agreed. 29-1 was their analog channel, had they built it, and they should have mapped to it. Just as WGFL should still be on 53-1, even if they aren't.

I asked them why they didn't map to 53-1 and there was not any real answer other than that is the way it is going to be. Same with 9.1
I think the decision came more from corporate than anything. I have never looked to see if it's a pattern on the other stations they own.

That's very interesting. I certainly hope it bodes well and you end up with WNBW once WFTV analog goes away. It sounds somewhat promising.

Me and the Duck watched WNBW for a few hours last night through the drop outs. Every time it dropped I could see WFTV, even though I was pointed away from them. Just barely, but I have seen enough skip to know if I can see the analog on the same channel it nix on digital. At least on the Toshiba POS receiver.

I bumped the size up on the text. Does that help any?
Okay. :)

- Trip

Yes it helps. I would go one size larger, as that stuff to me is just about as important as the main menu.

I also like the fact that you actually are using a pig to observe parts of North and Central FL. My name in lights! I don't know if that page was there before but it's good to show there are many people involved in supplying data and it's a group with the three of you don't the brunt of the work.

Is it snowing?

I have never told you but my father was born just outside Bedford not far from you. He was named after a drug store that was still there in 1964 when I was in Bedford with him. I doubt it's still there. I guess when you have 14 kids you run out of original names, lol.

TiVoFishMan

03-20-09, 08:35 AM

There were 7.1, 7.1, 7.2, 7.2, 7.3, and 7.3.

I would have thought that "two 7.1's, two 7.2's, and two 7.3's" made that clear.* Also, renumbering the minor channels differently from the dictates of the PSIP data surely would be a violation of the ATSC protocol, wouldn't it?

ATSC tuners do vary in how they map channels when they find two channels with identical major and minor numbers.

Since many stations in New Orleans lost their transmitters in Katrina, there was lots of doubling up of digital subchannels here for awhile.

For about a week, there were two copies each of 6.1 (WDSU - NBC), 26.1 (WGNO-ABC), and 38.1 (WNOL -CW) receivable here.

One copy was from a sub-channel leased from a station who's transmitter survived Katrina, the other from the newly replaced transmitter actually owned by the station in question. They left the duplication for a week, mostly, to let the cable and satellite providers switch from the "temporary" to the "permanent" feed at their convenience.

When the channels were doubled like this, I scanned with 2 ATSC TV's to see what they would do.

They each dealt with the situation differently.

One of them, a 47" Vizio, faithfully gave me two each of 6.1, 26.1, and 38.1. In each case, as you pressed "channel up" the first one to tune would be the one found at the lower frequency, the second one the one found at the higher frequency.

The other TV, a 32" Westinghouse, refused to have more than one channel with the same virtual number loaded at the same time.

As it auto-scanned, when it encountered a second channel with the same virtual number as one it had already found, it deleted the old one from its map, and replaced it with the new one.

If the new one wasn't the one I wanted (e. g. the one about to go away), manually scanning the frequency containing the "right" one would delete the "wrong" one from the map and replace it.

foxeng

03-20-09, 08:40 AM

Here is the way I understand multiple same major number stations work. First off you should not be seeing two channels of the SAME station if the metadata has been received from two different channels. Sounds like the receiver isn't implementing the full protocol which is the norm, not the exception.

Here is how it is suppose to work. Each station is assigned a unique TSID or transport stream ID number which is kept at ATSC.org. This is how each station is identified. This is how MPT can have two different stations on different channels all map to one virtual channel and how a network of stations can all have the same virtual channel and not confuse the boxes.

If a box sees TSID 200 with major channel 2 subchannel 1 on RF channel 5, the box will display channel 2-1 and when the viewer enters 2-1, the RF tuner goes to RF 5. When the box sees the same TSID/major/minor channel number on a different RF channel either through a rescan or manual channel entry, it is suppose to update the table to reflect the new RF channel number not add another set of major/minor channels. If the box sees different TSID's with the same major/minor channel numbers, then the box is suppose to list ALL of the major/minor channel numbers linked to the separate TSID's and treat them as different stations. This does work because I have this very setup where I have two virtual channel 8's, one on RF 35, one on RF 24 and I can watch either one by going to the correct 8-1.

Trip in VA

03-20-09, 09:35 AM

I don't think as many station have back up antennas as they did at one point. When I worked at WCJB we took our Ch20 antenna off the studio tower (original transmit location) so sell more antenna space. We didn't even sell to FM stations at that time as we had so many 2 way and paging clients. (I even had a paging antenna on that tower at one time).

The plan was if we ever lost the main tower was to run very low power back on the studio tower since it would hit most of Gainesville. I have not idea what their emergency plan is these days.

It'd be interesting if these stations had filed with the FCC in support of their aux facilities. That would give a definitive list of station plans and whatnot.

I asked them why they didn't map to 53-1 and there was not any real answer other than that is the way it is going to be. Same with 9.1
I think the decision came more from corporate than anything. I have never looked to see if it's a pattern on the other stations they own.

Their other stations mostly applied to return to their analog channels, though after the bankruptcy stuff they ended up keeping their digital channel numbers in some cases. I think most of them map to the analog channel number.

Me and the Duck watched WNBW for a few hours last night through the drop outs. Every time it dropped I could see WFTV, even though I was pointed away from them. Just barely, but I have seen enough skip to know if I can see the analog on the same channel it nix on digital. At least on the Toshiba POS receiver.

I'm sure you know this, but for the benefit of others who may not, just because you can't see WFTV doesn't mean it isn't contributing to the noise floor. Without it there, the noise floor could drop off a fair bit which would give you a better signal to noise ratio to work with.

Yes it helps. I would go one size larger, as that stuff to me is just about as important as the main menu.

I've bumped it one size more, but I'm hesitant to go larger based on my testing on a 1024x768 screen. It looks like going any larger would end up with the menu line wrapping, and I don't really want that to occur.

I'm surprised nobody's asked about the blank space in the menu. It's there because I haven't decided what to do with it yet. I got an e-mail recommendation to post information about ATSC DVR hardware, and it's one of a couple of ideas I'm kicking around to do with that space. Another idea is a section on ham radio though that probably starts getting a bit far from the site's purpose.

I also like the fact that you actually are using a pig to observe parts of North and Central FL. My name in lights! I don't know if that page was there before but it's good to show there are many people involved in supplying data and it's a group with the three of you don't the brunt of the work.

That page has been there longer than my site's existed in its current form. I always try to credit people for what they do, if they want it. It assures my data can be sourced and gives people the recognition they deserve. I generally post if people provide TSReader data or otherwise provide a wealth of information. A simple one-line tip doesn't end up on that page, simply because there's no telling who that tip is coming from and I don't want to accidentally let out the name of an insider or something.

You probably saw the three names on the FAQ page. As far as the site itself goes, I do the data updates pretty much myself. I do get a lot of e-mail tips but the vast majority of my info comes from searching Google News and reading up on here. Basically, most data on there that does not come straight from the FCC, comes from my own work.

Bruce is the code guy, and he's always coming up with new things. Sometimes he just randomly pops online and says "look at x page, I added a new feature." I've been attempting to learn to code better by using the code he's written for my site as an example or as something to build upon, so there's been lots added now that's my own code, though he generally goes through after me in case I've made some horrible mistake--which definitely happens as I'm not a great coder!

Falcon_77 is exclusively responsible for his spreadsheet, and has his own FTP log-in and everything. He's also the fall-back guy in case something happens and I can't update the site, thus why I contacted him about my power and phone being out over Spring Break. He has admin access to the site, though he's never actually looked at the admin controls I don't think. :p

Is it snowing?

No? (Maybe I'm missing a joke in this question)

I have never told you but my father was born just outside Bedford not far from you. He was named after a drug store that was still there in 1964 when I was in Bedford with him. I doubt it's still there. I guess when you have 14 kids you run out of original names, lol.

Awesome! Yep, Bedford's an hour and change away from me whether I'm home or at school. I've been through Bedford on 460 but I've never actually gone anywhere in Bedford, it was always on my way to Roanoke for something.

- Trip

Falcon_77

03-20-09, 11:19 AM

Falcon_77

03-20-09, 11:23 AM

Speaking of the spreadsheet, I posted an update. I am about a week behind right now, but I have included the data regarding the recently filed early analog ends.

# 1154: operating Post-Transition facilities
# 188: with maximized Construction Permits but otherwise ready (included above)
# 844: to end analog operations early (before 6/12/09)
# 667: have already ended (or will not commence) analog operations (included above)

It appears that Fox in Philadelphia (WTXF) is not really ending analog on 5/22, but will reduce power instead.

I also need to update the market rankings, to get this back in-line with Trip's.

Trip in VA

03-20-09, 11:33 AM

I also need to update the market rankings, to get this back in-line with Trip's.

You'll probably just want to hold off on that. I have a lot of tweaking to do with it, and some of these rankings will change in the near future. I'm hoping to spend some time on it this weekend.

I've also held off on doing anything with Wikipedia, who also has outdated ranks.

- Trip

dattier

03-20-09, 12:03 PM

I just wanted to make sure. 7.1 could mean the programming or the virtual channel.I meant the virtual channel numbers in that post. The physical channels were 7 and 52.

ATSC tuners do vary in how they map channels when they find two channels with identical major and minor numbers. ...

The other TV, a 32" Westinghouse, refused to have more than one channel with the same virtual number loaded at the same time.as did one of our TVs.As it auto-scanned, when it encountered a second channel with the same virtual number as one it had already found, it deleted the old one from its map, and replaced it with the new one.

If the new one wasn't the one I wanted (e. g. the one about to go away), manually scanning the frequency containing the "right" one would delete the "wrong" one from the map and replace it.Unfortunately, you can't do that if the clobbered physical channel has the same number as the virtual channel (or as the virtual channel of any other station already mapped).

First off you should not be seeing two channels of the SAME station if the metadata has been received from two different channels.Hmm. Of course, I had no way to tell and have no way to find out whether WLS-DT on RF7 and WLS-DT on RF52 were using the same TSID or different ones during those tests. If the TSIDs were the same, then that one television did it right (perhaps for incorrect reasons) and the other TVs and the CECBs did it wrong; if the TSIDs differed, then the other TVs and the CECBs were right and that one TV was wrong.

foxeng

03-20-09, 12:59 PM

Hmm.* Of course, I had no way to tell and have no way to find out whether WLS-DT on RF7 and WLS-DT on RF52 were using the same TSID or different ones during those tests.* If the TSIDs were the same, then that one television did it right (perhaps for incorrect reasons) and the other TVs and the CECBs did it wrong; if the TSIDs differed, then the other TVs and the CECBs were right and that one TV was wrong.

The TSID is assigned to the actual station, meaning, the analog has one TSID and the digital has a separate TSID and legally, the digital is moving to a different channel so the analog TSID will simple go away when analog turns off and the digital TSID remains the same even though it is on a different channel. It shouldn't have changed.

Trip in VA

03-20-09, 05:55 PM

The FCC dismissed WPXD's petition to relocate to DT-19 because it could not receive Canadian concurrence.

- Trip

Piggie

03-20-09, 06:24 PM

It'd be interesting if these stations had filed with the FCC in support of their aux facilities. That would give a definitive list of station plans and whatnot.

When I did the Feb 17th emergency search where everyone chipped in for their area, I saw some aux backup fillings, so they exist. No I don't remember at all in the flurry where I saw them, but it had to be in Florida.

Their other stations mostly applied to return to their analog channels, though after the bankruptcy stuff they ended up keeping their digital channel numbers in some cases. I think most of them map to the analog channel number.

Oh, did New Age Media apply or operating under bankruptcy? That could explain their "reasons" for not buying a bigger transmitter. It is so said to finally after 35 years to get NBC back in Gainesville DMA to have it a peanut whistle, but I don't go a day without complaining about it, so ignore me, lol.

I'm sure you know this, but for the benefit of others who may not, just because you can't see WFTV doesn't mean it isn't contributing to the noise floor. Without it there, the noise floor could drop off a fair bit which would give you a better signal to noise ratio to work with.

Yes, just when WFTV gets into the noise it's impossible for me to determine the degree to which it is a problem. I have also found that on WTLV that WTVT from Tampa wipes it out often at night. WEDU is moving to 13 with 25 KW at almost 500m, which is not good.

I am afraid, those of us in fringe area's are going to get a double whammy. During the day (not tropo) more power means signal. But there is so so much slight tropo in Florida that a lot of nights VHFs are going to cancel each other in the fringe. In the past there was never the same channel so close together at least in Florida. Jacksonville and Tampa share a lot of co-channel digitals. arg!!

I've bumped it one size more, but I'm hesitant to go larger based on my testing on a 1024x768 screen. It looks like going any larger would end up with the menu line wrapping, and I don't really want that to occur.

That works! I like it now. I have played with it now enough to get used to the new system, eliminating that inherent resistance to change and I like it!

I'm surprised nobody's asked about the blank space in the menu. It's there because I haven't decided what to do with it yet. I got an e-mail recommendation to post information about ATSC DVR hardware, and it's one of a couple of ideas I'm kicking around to do with that space. Another idea is a section on ham radio though that probably starts getting a bit far from the site's purpose.

Geezzz, I just thought the blank spot was there metaphorically! :@)

Ham radio would go too far off topic, I agree. There are so many good ham sites out there. I say stay focused. If you expand I would say FM radio, but wow, there are a ton more FM stations, and since I don't DX FM anymore there may already be sites that cover FM.

If someone wants to run an ATSC DVR section, not a bad idea as I have found very little good information on them. I think you have enough load with your "duties" on the site now.

Falcon_77 is exclusively responsible for his spreadsheet, and has his own FTP log-in and everything. He's also the fall-back guy in case something happens and I can't update the site, thus why I contacted him about my power and phone being out over Spring Break. He has admin access to the site, though he's never actually looked at the admin controls I don't think. :p

Note to Falcon, Trip just called you the fall guy.

Awesome! Yep, Bedford's an hour and change away from me whether I'm home or at school. I've been through Bedford on 460 but I've never actually gone anywhere in Bedford, it was always on my way to Roanoke for something.

- Trip

Is the star still on the mountain in Roanoke? It was cool when they built the interstate you knew you were passing through Roanoke because of the star.

Man has this thread and the other change thread gotten OT!

Trip in VA

03-20-09, 10:37 PM

When I did the Feb 17th emergency search where everyone chipped in for their area, I saw some aux backup fillings, so they exist. No I don't remember at all in the flurry where I saw them, but it had to be in Florida.

I know they exist, but I don't think all aux facilities are licensed as such. I'm thinking specifically of the analog side. I'm not sure of that, but...

Oh, did New Age Media apply or operating under bankruptcy? That could explain their "reasons" for not buying a bigger transmitter. It is so said to finally after 35 years to get NBC back in Gainesville DMA to have it a peanut whistle, but I don't go a day without complaining about it, so ignore me, lol.

I don't know about New Age, but the company that owned the stations before, Pegasus, went bankrupt. I'm not sure about New Age's financial stuff. I misspoke I think.

Yes, just when WFTV gets into the noise it's impossible for me to determine the degree to which it is a problem. I have also found that on WTLV that WTVT from Tampa wipes it out often at night. WEDU is moving to 13 with 25 KW at almost 500m, which is not good.

I am afraid, those of us in fringe area's are going to get a double whammy. During the day (not tropo) more power means signal. But there is so so much slight tropo in Florida that a lot of nights VHFs are going to cancel each other in the fringe. In the past there was never the same channel so close together at least in Florida. Jacksonville and Tampa share a lot of co-channel digitals. arg!!

We'll just have to wait and see.

That works! I like it now. I have played with it now enough to get used to the new system, eliminating that inherent resistance to change and I like it!

:)

Geezzz, I just thought the blank spot was there metaphorically! :@)

Ham radio would go too far off topic, I agree. There are so many good ham sites out there. I say stay focused. If you expand I would say FM radio, but wow, there are a ton more FM stations, and since I don't DX FM anymore there may already be sites that cover FM.

I have a whole separate domain name if I wanted to expand into FM. I'd like to do it but it's just way too much of a time sink to do it. As you say, there's a lot more radio stations than there are TV stations. And it's not like there's any TSReader equivalent for IBOC, which would be important for me to list, even if I don't like IBOC.

If someone wants to run an ATSC DVR section, not a bad idea as I have found very little good information on them. I think you have enough load with your "duties" on the site now.

We'll see. Something like that would hopefully be a one-time thing, but again, it requires work I don't really want to do. Hmm... I don't know what to do with that space.

Note to Falcon, Trip just called you the fall guy.

Do what now? :p

He's just the guy that can hold down the fort if I end up in a tragic roof cave-in or something. :D

Is the star still on the mountain in Roanoke? It was cool when they built the interstate you knew you were passing through Roanoke because of the star.

Yep, it's still up there. :)

Man has this thread and the other change thread gotten OT!

Yeah, theres not a whole lot of allocation news right now, so... :D

- Trip

dattier

03-21-09, 12:30 AM

The TSID is assigned to the actual station, meaning, the analog has one TSID and the digital has a separate TSID and legally, the digital is moving to a different channel so the analog TSID will simple go away when analog turns off and the digital TSID remains the same even though it is on a different channel. It shouldn't have changed.Except that the move hasn't happened yet. It's possible that during these tests WLS may have been using the analog station's TSID for the ATSC signals on RF7, even if they'll be using RF52's current TSID on RF7 after the move.

So we'll never know.

uncahal

03-21-09, 12:51 AM

Hi everyone. I came over here with a problem. I bought a Terk indoor antenna.I will not pay 75 bux to watch tv. I hooked her up to my Toshiba Rezda 42". I was so happy to get a great picture in 1080i on about 5 channels.Especially Fox 12-1 for my favorite Animation Domination. Simpsons,Family Guy,etc. The antenna cost 68bux cheaper then one month of basic here in Portland Or. I got to see one Sunday evenings'worth and the signal just disappeard.Poof gone.I pointed and jiggled and cursed but to no avail. I sent 4 e-mails to Fox Portland before I got a reply.The guy said 12-1 was up and running and then asked a hundred questions about my converter box. After telling him my situation and that I have no need for a converter box he ceased comunications. Any body help me? It was there one day and gone the next.

foxeng

03-21-09, 08:44 AM

Except that the move hasn't happened yet.* It's possible that during these tests WLS may have been using the analog station's TSID for the ATSC signals on RF7, even if they'll be using RF52's current TSID on RF7 after the move.

So we'll never know.

You are right we will never know, but if WLS has a CP, and I know they do, then they are authorized to operate the digital on channel 7 as if the analog was already gone so they should have used the digital TSID.

TalkingRat

03-21-09, 09:03 AM

Uncahal, many Portlanders do fine with an indoor antenna, but adjusting for digital is a new skill. Start with the Portland OTA thread. Be sure to read the very first post, too. It has lots of useful info, and it is current. When something happens with a station, I read about it on this thread. And it is the best place to post for reception help, since we have some really local reception issues. The link:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=168423

Another place to start is the "new to OTA" antenna thread, here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=611957

There is also an Official AVS Antenna thread. But if you want to give your Terk a chance, don't start there.

Piggie

03-21-09, 05:44 PM

I know they exist, but I don't think all aux facilities are licensed as such. I'm thinking specifically of the analog side. I'm not sure of that, but...

I don't know about New Age, but the company that owned the stations before, Pegasus, went bankrupt. I'm not sure about New Age's financial stuff. I misspoke I think.

We'll just have to wait and see.

I have a whole separate domain name if I wanted to expand into FM. I'd like to do it but it's just way too much of a time sink to do it. As you say, there's a lot more radio stations than there are TV stations. And it's not like there's any TSReader equivalent for IBOC, which would be important for me to list, even if I don't like IBOC.

We'll see. Something like that would hopefully be a one-time thing, but again, it requires work I don't really want to do. Hmm... I don't know what to do with that space.

- Trip

I know when the plane hit the WUFT-TV-FM/WRUF-FM tower in the late 1980's, they had not taken down the old WRUF FM antenna on campus that was about 300 ft on top of the omni stick for WRUF-AM and had been there for years.

Suddenly they had to decide. WRUF-FM had been classical NPR until the move to the new tower (now gone on the ground) but was now WUFT-FM. So they decided since WRUF-FM the new rock station was allowed to sell ads, it got the old antenna on campus. They filed STA and were approved in days (the old transmitter was also still sitting there on campus tower).

Now get this it's sad but almost funny. WUFT-TV and WUFT-FM (PBS and NPR) were on two pushup poles, I kid you not! They both had 2 bay dipoles strung on them home made by the U of FL machine shops to stay on the air. When the tower fell it missed the transmitter building. The amps were damaged in the SWR going off scale, but the exciters were ok. So they ran a 100 watts or so from 45 ft.

They didn't even cover NW Gainesville.

I didn't work at WCJB at the time. Fortunately Cox's head end was only 1/2 mile from the pushup pole, but still the signal was terrible.

So Cox, and WCJB and some local hams helped WUFT bury 1/2 line between WUFT and Cox, that had adjourning property (sort of, they got permission to cut through Devil's Millhopper State Park with the line. It was about 1400 ft of line. I don't remember anymore if they put in amps or how they did it. I was working at Vital Industries at the time. Later they put up an STL receiver as the studio is on campus and at that distance Cox can grab the STL feed to the WUFT tower. But now with digital, I have no idea what they are doing nor does Cox from what I can see or tell.

======

Yeah, I knew Pegasus went belly up, when New Age came in town. I know New Age has already sold or gotten rid of some of the Pegasus licenses (LP) in our area if they were even on the air.

======

I bet with FL tropo, putting co-channel as close as Tampa and Jax will be a problem for those between them. I know they didn't plan on people being able to watch stuff DX anymore. But I am just in the Jacksonville countors on VHF and my antenna confirms that. Those like me will be affected I am getting pretty sure.

Maybe not every night but once a week I bet even post transition WEDU will wipe out WTLV, even though I am closer to WTLV, they will be 53KW at 300m, and WEDU only 25KW but at almost 500m. Of course I am way closer to WTLV, but that can be nixed out in FL tropo.

FL tropo really peaks at sunrise. It's possible at sunrise to see Tampa VHF analog most of the time for an hour or so.

========

I would not even get into FM I don't think.

As far as ATSC DVRs, there would be new ones all the time.

Look at the hdtvprimer people or person. He did an awesome job on the antennas that existed say 2004 to 2008. Then in 2008 lots of new antennas came out and I don't think he gets free demo models, and now he is still trying to catch up. Who would have predicted so many new antenna models would come out last year?

So DVR is good, but maybe not right.

Everyone needs to keep thinking about it.

MarioMania

03-21-09, 07:10 PM

I didn't find the Bakersfield OTA thread

what would happen to KBFX-LP Fox Analog Ch. 58 after June 12th??

foxeng

03-21-09, 07:27 PM

I didn't find the Bakersfield OTA thread

what would happen to KBFX-LP Fox Analog Ch. 58 after June 12th??

It will continue to operate. Only full power stations must terminate analog on June 12th. LP's, CA's and translators have not been told when they must transition.

MarioMania

03-21-09, 07:32 PM

I mean Ch. 58...

Channel 51-69 going to be used by something..

Scooper

03-21-09, 07:47 PM

They WILL have to vacate ch 58 - and shortly. They may just do their digital transition when they do that anyway.

Trip in VA

03-21-09, 07:53 PM

I mean Ch. 58...

Channel 51-69 going to be used by something..

They can continue to operate analog 58 until the final spectrum owner orders them off the air.

They've filed to operate a digital signal on channel 29 at 15 kW.

- Trip

Desert Hawk

03-21-09, 09:19 PM

So KBFX is going to be real channel 29 virtual channel 58, and KBAK is going to be real channel 33 virtual channel 29? They should have moved KBAK to real channel 29 and put KBFX on RF33 and rebranded it as "FOX33".

Our KVPT analog translator on channel 34 did go off the air on 2-17 and KVPT is now only on a digital translator on RF and virtual channel 18. Actually the analog station ias owned by an independent contractor (Colola Broadcasting, which owns many LPs in several markets). Channel 34 now has 24 hour color bars with "This channel available for lease".

Piggie

03-21-09, 10:46 PM

If Wikipedia is to be believed, they say KBFX-CA is also being broadcast on KBAK second subchannel.

Quoted from Wikipedia

"It is also broadcast digitally (standard definition only) on KBAK-DT's second subchannel; the digital signal is RF channel 33-2 and virtual mapped channel 58-2."

For what it is worth.

Reference page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KBFX-CA

Piggie

03-21-09, 10:51 PM

They can continue to operate analog 58 until the final spectrum owner orders them off the air.

They've filed to operate a digital signal on channel 29 at 15 kW.

- Trip

Trip, they also have an application for CA service on 22 RF.

I also looked at their digital projected pattern and well it not too good for Bakersfield. Seems close to crazy, like WNBW that throws a null at their city of license.

The deeper I get into following other threads and areas, listening the discussion, it sure looks like to me, there is going to have to be a LOT of sorting out after analog is really gone if OTA at least keeps as many users if not expands.

I am sorry to say that this delay of transition has not only kept stations from working on their digital signal, but has actually chased off many from OTA.

Trip in VA

03-21-09, 11:17 PM

That KBFX application was just filed and I saw the same thing; I think something's wrong with it, to be quite honest. I wonder if it'll be amended in the next few days.

- Trip

Piggie

03-22-09, 01:44 AM

That KBFX application was just filed and I saw the same thing; I think something's wrong with it, to be quite honest. I wonder if it'll be amended in the next few days.

- Trip

I could be a mess up. For a long time and still they show that WJXX applied for RF 13. Unless that is very old I can't figure it out. Their sister station called the "First Coast News" is WTLV RF13. So it is weird. Either old or a mistake.

Trip in VA

03-22-09, 11:28 AM

Alright, folks, for anyone who's interested, I spent a lot of time yesterday picking through the market definitions on my website. I'm still not 100% sure on them, but if you want to check out the ones I feel confident that I'm finished with, they include all markets in these states:

ME, VT, NH, MA, RI, CT, NY, NJ, DE.

I've also done Philadelphia, Salisbury, Baltimore, DC, Norfolk, Richmond, Greenville NC.

Raleigh is mostly done, with the exception of areas which border Florence.

I've done these markets with the exception of their western borders: Scranton, Harrisburg, Hagerstown, Harrisonburg, Roanoke, Wilmington.

Any thoughts?

- Trip

Desert Hawk

03-22-09, 07:51 PM

KBFX-CA is simulcast on KBAK-DT's -2 subchannel. They recently switched it to 16:9 SD. I wrote that line you quoted from the Wikipedia article!

In Bakersfield we have 3 Spanish low power stations that are simulcast on subchannels of co-owned full power digital stations. KZKC-LP Azteca 42 is on KERO-DT RF 10 virtual 42-2. KBTF-CA Telefutura 31 and KABE-LP Univision 39 are simulcast on KUVI-DT RF 55 (RF45 post transition) and map to 31-1 and 39-1 respectively.

iowegian3

03-22-09, 11:40 PM

FCC Proposes New Rules For Implanted Neuromuscular Microstimulators. (http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-289482A1.pdf)

Having gotten nailed with an SCI (spinal cord injury) a couple of years ago, I was surprised to see the FCC inviting comments on this. In fact, hadn't seen this even discussed too much. It'll be interesting to see how this will work out. I walk w/ a walker, but don't have loads of stamina. I'll leave the rest of this for the SCI forums.

Meanwhile, it looks like four 6 meg chunks of spectrum are proposed to be allocated:

The Notice seeks comment on the feasibility of allowing up to 20 megahertz of spectrum in the 413-457 MHz band to be used under the Medical Device Radiocommunication Service (MedRadio Service) in Part 95 of the Commission’s rules, and seeks comment on the allocation of four specific segments for this purpose: 413-419 MHz, 426-432 MHz, 438-444 MHz, and
451-457 MHz.

Are the two channels in the middle pulling from Amateur Band TV? Imagine the fun that could be had yanking us folks around...put 1 kW into a yagi, point, shoot and watch me do the Herky Jerky:D

Reminds me of the Magnum PI episode where Magnum jams his landlord's RC model airplane and takes it down....

Dr Touchtone

03-24-09, 02:53 AM

FCC Proposes New Rules For Implanted Neuromuscular Microstimulators. (http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-289482A1.pdf)

Having gotten nailed with an SCI (spinal cord injury) a couple of years ago, I was surprised to see the FCC inviting comments on this. In fact, hadn't seen this even discussed too much. It'll be interesting to see how this will work out. I walk w/ a walker, but don't have loads of stamina. I'll leave the rest of this for the SCI forums.

Meanwhile, it looks like four 6 meg chunks of spectrum are proposed to be allocated:

Are the two channels in the middle pulling from Amateur Band TV? Imagine the fun that could be had yanking us folks around...put 1 kW into a yagi, point, shoot and watch me do the Herky Jerky:D

Reminds me of the Magnum PI episode where Magnum jams his landlord's RC model airplane and takes it down....

The whole proposal stinks RF wise....the 451 Mhz range is HOT with activity (450-451 is broadcast RPUs..some wideband..and then 451-455 has users all over the place)....the amateur freqs are not just ATV but FM repeaters and SSB as well as other high power users...using ANY of these ranges (including the 406-420 Goverment band) is A BAD idea; Im not against the idea of the devices but I AM against the frequency choices..just ask Dallas TX hospitals how they felt when WFAA fired up DTV9 and all their EKG monitoring devices using that spectrum went haywire!!!.....2-5 Ghz maybe but not 400Mhz!
Yes, Higgins was not amused :D

Piggie

03-24-09, 03:17 AM

KBFX-CA is simulcast on KBAK-DT's -2 subchannel. They recently switched it to 16:9 SD. I wrote that line you quoted from the Wikipedia article!

It's a smaller world than we sometimes know! that is cool. Someone a while back started a nice page on one of our locals, WNBW, but then it stood still. I never found who started it but I keep that one up to date. Not much has changed lately but as they came on the air there was a lot of things changing, coming online.

w9wi

03-25-09, 07:11 PM

You are right we will never know, but if WLS has a CP, and I know they do, then they are authorized to operate the digital on channel 7 as if the analog was already gone so they should have used the digital TSID.

If we were going to change RF channels here, I would have just split the mux'd ASI feed (it's already on a DA) and fed both transmitters - channels 7 and 52 - the same bitstream. Kinda surprised WLS isn't doing it that way.

Come to think of it, the RF frequency is part of PSIP - but does anything actually use that information? (I would think it wouldn't matter if that field was temporarily wrong?)

Luckily we don't have to worry about that... as our pre-transition and post-transition channels are the same...

w9wi

03-25-09, 07:20 PM

I know they exist, but I don't think all aux facilities are licensed as such. I'm thinking specifically of the analog side. I'm not sure of that, but...

I have absolute knowledge of one station that had a backup transmitter that didn't appear in the CDBS. It was licensed not as an "auxiliary" but as an "alternate main".

I *think* the difference is that an "alternate main" is a backup transmitter that operates at the same power as the normal transmitter and feeds the same antenna. So the effective radiated power and height above average terrain do not change when the alternate main is on the air.

An "auxiliary" facility is one whose power, antenna height, and/or site are different from the main. At least that's what I *think* the difference is.

I note I've never seen in the CDBS an auxiliary facility - either FM, TV, or DTV - with the same power and antenna height as the main.

Trip in VA

03-25-09, 09:14 PM

Kinda surprised WLS isn't doing it that way.

Actually, the way I heard it it sounded like they did do it that way.

I have absolute knowledge of one station that had a backup transmitter that didn't appear in the CDBS. It was licensed not as an "auxiliary" but as an "alternate main".

I heard about a station which mounted their digital on a "backup tower" they had, in the process removing a backup analog antenna from the top-mount position. No facility in the FCC database that I saw...

- Trip

ProTuber

03-25-09, 11:36 PM

Come to think of it, the RF frequency is part of PSIP - but does anything actually use that information? (I would think it wouldn't matter if that field was temporarily wrong?)From pg 33 of the ATSC standard A/65C: Program and System Information Protocol for Terrestrial Broadcast and Cable, Rev. C, with Amendment No. 1 http://www.atsc.org/standards/a_65cr1_with_amend_1.pdf "carrier_frequency — The recommended value for these 32 bits is zero. Use of this field to identify carrier frequency is allowed, but is deprecated. After January 1, 2010, these 32 bits shall be set to zero."

Dr Touchtone

03-26-09, 12:59 AM

I have absolute knowledge of one station that had a backup transmitter that didn't appear in the CDBS. It was licensed not as an "auxiliary" but as an "alternate main".

I *think* the difference is that an "alternate main" is a backup transmitter that operates at the same power as the normal transmitter and feeds the same antenna. So the effective radiated power and height above average terrain do not change when the alternate main is on the air.

An "auxiliary" facility is one whose power, antenna height, and/or site are different from the main. At least that's what I *think* the difference is.

I note I've never seen in the CDBS an auxiliary facility - either FM, TV, or DTV - with the same power and antenna height as the main.

Ive had redundant FM transmitter sites before (especially one of them I built in Dallas in 98) and didnt need a alternate main license for it...two Continental 816R5s (one B and one C) in one room....with a Dieletric switch and out to the combiner room where there were two CBS FMs (who also had two CEC 816R5Cs in their rooms)...none of us had an alternate main........have never seen that before...
An AUX can be on the same tower and even use the same transmitter...but the AUX antenna is lower...(at least all the ones I have seen that way are!..I doubt you could have an aux with a higher antenna than the main and both at the same ERP)....Ive seen AUXs with same power and HAAT as the main (but on different towers)....Houston and Dallas both have them in TV AND FM.

w9wi

03-27-09, 10:50 PM

An AUX can be on the same tower and even use the same transmitter...but the AUX antenna is lower...(at least all the ones I have seen that way are!..I doubt you could have an aux with a higher antenna than the main and both at the same ERP)....Ive seen AUXs with same power and HAAT as the main (but on different towers)....Houston and Dallas both have them in TV AND FM.

Yep.

As I understand it (don't have a copy of the rules handy) the coverage of an aux cannot exceed that of the main. So yes, if the aux has a higher antenna than the main the aux must have a lower ERP.

As I understand it that means you *can't* have an aux on a different tower with the same power and HAAT as the main -- because the coverage of the aux would exceed that of the main in the direction of the aux's tower. (i.e., if the aux tower was east of the main tower, the coverage of the aux would extend to the east of that of the main -- even though both facilities would cover, say, 100,000 square miles, the aux would cover a *different* 100,000 square miles.)

On hindsight...

The "alternate main" license we had was nearly 20 years ago. I think the rules have been amended since then. Our current DTV license says "Transmitter: Type-accepted. See Sections 73.1660, 73.1665, and 73.1670 of the Commission's Rules."

73.1665 says in part:
"(a) Each AM, FM, TV and Class A TV broadcast station must have at
least one main transmitter which complies with the provisions of the
transmitter technical requirements for the type and class of station. A main
transmitter is one which is used for regular program service having
power ratings appropriate for the authorized operating power(s).
...
(c) A licensee may, without further authority or notification to the
FCC, replace an existing main transmitter or install additional main
transmitter(s) for use with the authorized antenna if the replacement or
additional transmitter(s) has been verified for compliance. ..."

foxeng

03-28-09, 07:30 AM

As I understand it that means you *can't* have an aux on a different tower with the same power and HAAT as the main -- because the coverage of the aux would exceed that of the main in the direction of the aux's tower. (i.e., if the aux tower was east of the main tower, the coverage of the aux would extend to the east of that of the main -- even though both facilities would cover, say, 100,000 square miles, the aux would cover a *different* 100,000 square miles.)

While I completely agree with that interpretation, and agree that is the correct interpretation, riddle me this, I do have a situation where I have a permit for the same ERP, on a backup tower 600 feet away from the main at the same height, both antennas are top mounted traveling waves with the tops of the antennas at the same HASL. By that interpretation, it shouldn't be, but it is. And because it isn't the main antenna, we are bound to do the "phased in announcement" post transition while we convert the main transmitter at the main site from analog to digital. Damn, FCC!!

justalurker

03-28-09, 04:00 PM

If it is not the SAME antenna (need I say on the same tower?) it will need to be licensed as an aux. It doesn't matter how close the towers are to each other or the heights. (IIRC there are aux licenses for stations on the Sears/Willis Tower for when they have to use a different antenna on the same building.)

If all you are doing is connecting a different transmitter to the antenna you don't need an aux license ... just stay within your ERP and notify the commission if you can't maintain your licensed ERP.

foxeng, are you saying your backup isn't under an aux license?

Trip in VA

03-28-09, 04:55 PM

Quick update for anyone who's paying attention, I've spent about 22 of the past 30 hours working on the RabbitEars market definitions. I've now finished:

GA, SC, NC, VA, KY, IN, MI, and any states north and east of those. I have made a note to myself to recheck Manchester NH and Lafayette IN as I'm not sure those turned out right. Also, the extreme western portion of Michigan's Upper Penninsula (west of Marquette) will be done along with Wisconsin.

Not sure what area I'll hit next; I'm thinking about either Tennessee, Florida, or Illinois...

- Trip

foxeng

03-28-09, 06:34 PM

foxeng, are you saying your backup isn't under an aux license?

Not yet, but it is authorized for use on June 12th under an STA as the main has a CP to extend to Dec to complete construction. We won't need it except for 2 weeks to convert the main transmitter to digital. The plan is to file it as an aux when the 302 is filed for the main.

w9wi

03-30-09, 07:35 PM

While I completely agree with that interpretation, and agree that is the correct interpretation, riddle me this, I do have a situation where I have a permit for the same ERP, on a backup tower 600 feet away from the main at the same height, both antennas are top mounted traveling waves with the tops of the antennas at the same HASL. By that interpretation, it shouldn't be, but it is. And because it isn't the main antenna, we are bound to do the "phased in announcement" post transition while we convert the main transmitter at the main site from analog to digital. Damn, FCC!!

Well, the Commission staff is not infallible:)

Trip in VA

04-01-09, 12:33 AM

KABC wants a waiver of 47CFR73.622(f)(5) to boost power from 25 kW up to 28 kW. Wonder if the FCC grants it.

- Trip

Falcon_77

04-01-09, 11:26 AM

I found these comments of interest:

It is well documented, however, that the Commission’s maximum ERP levels are insufficient to reach certain analog viewers who rely on indoor antennas for reception of digital television service. Indeed, the collective experiences from stations’ that have completed the DTV transition, as well as DTV field tests, demonstrate that the digital signal is not always of sufficient strength for reception by viewers who rely on indoor antennas for reception of their digital television service. In fact, reception problems ranked high among consumer complaints to the FCC’s DTV Call Centers in feedback following the conversion from analog to DTV broadcasting by many television stations in February. This digital off-air television reception concern is exacerbated in urban areas such as in KABC’s viewing area in Los Angeles because of the greater reliance by viewers in urban areas on indoor antennas to receive over-the-air television signals.

I don't expect a 0.6dB increase to solve many VHF indoor antenna problems. However, most of the problems with upper VHF seem to be with lower towers which aren't able to clear as much of the Fresnel Zone in LOS areas (vs. UHF), so the problems may not be as significant in the LA area, but we will see.

ABC should probably be more concerned with WPVI.

Trip in VA

04-02-09, 08:59 AM

Falcon_77

04-02-09, 11:51 AM

From what we have seen thus far, that would make sense, but the rules are not clear. Looking at that section again, the following points are of interest:

We adopt our proposal in the DTS Notice150 to require that DTS stations provide at least the same level of service they would provide were they using their single-transmitter facilities. Specifically, we will not accept an application proposing use of DTS if the combined coverage from all of the transmitters fails to cover the entire area within the applicant’s authorized service area.

Accordingly, we will deny any application to construct DTS facilities that would result in a loss of service to the population currently served within the licensee’s service contour.

So, perhaps the no cherry-picking rule applies more for stations that want to reduce the ERP on their main facility. It seems to me that if the main is unchanged and they only stand to gain viewers, that it should be acceptable.

Maybe the FCC is just looking to make sure that the contour is preserved in the, "combined coverage from all of the transmitters fails to cover the entire area within the applicant’s authorized service area" statement.

Tower Guy

04-02-09, 12:27 PM

It made me wonder if the goal is not to have stations cover every square inch of their contour, but more to prevent stations from putting a weak transmitter in their city of license and another weak transmitter in their target city, leaving areas in between out in the cold.

Does that make sense?

Yes, it makes sense.

Consider another situation.

A station would like to do DTS toward the north and toward the west. If the coverage areas overlap, there is no cherry picking. If there is a gap between them, the station must construct a facility toward the NW that would connect the DTS coverage areas together.

justalurker

04-02-09, 08:29 PM

Accordingly, we will deny any application to construct DTS facilities that would result in a loss of service to the population currently served within the licensee’s service contour.Isn't this referring to the analog coverage? Trying to prevent stations from constructing a DTS system that doesn't do it's best to cover the original analog footprint?

I don't see any problem with a station building to the north and the west without building to the northwest unless they have reduced power on the main that COULD have covered that area. Moving from analog to digital there WILL be signal loss areas. These should be minimized.

w9wi

04-02-09, 09:35 PM

I was thinking about the "no cherrypicking" DTS rule this morning, and I've come to the conclusion that I think we've misinterpreted what it means. Maybe someone else can clear this up for me.

I thought about it because I have frequent discussions with someone in the Springfield MO market, and he was discussing with me KRBK. We noted the low-powered application they have now, and he suggested to me that they could put up a low-powered transmitter at Fordland (the main tower site). It occurred to me that this could be a DTS, except that there would be areas of no coverage between the two transmitters.

It made me wonder if the goal is not to have stations cover every square inch of their contour, but more to prevent stations from putting a weak transmitter in their city of license and another weak transmitter in their target city, leaving areas in between out in the cold.

Does that make sense?

- Trip

Yes, I think you have the Commission's intent correct - they don't want, for example, one transmitter just big enough to "city-grade" their COL and another one-watter across the street from the cable headend.

It would seem what your contact in Springfield suggests would NOT be permitted. 73.626(f)(3) (http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-08-256A1.pdf) requires that "Each DTS transmitter's coverage is contiguous with at least one other DTS transmitter's coverage".

foxeng

04-03-09, 01:12 PM

PUBLIC NOTICE
Federal Communications Commission
445 12th St., S.W.
Washington, D.C. 20554
News Media Information 202 / 418-0500
Internet: http://www.fcc.gov
TTY: 1-888-835-5322
DA 09-760
Released: April 3, 2009
COMMISSION GRANTS MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE DTV MAXIMIZATION
APPLICATIONS SUBJECT TO THE CONDITION THAT APPLICANTS RESOLVE
THEIR MUTUAL EXCLUSIVITY WITHIN 30 DAYS
By Public Notice released May 30, 2008, the Commission lifted the freeze on the filing of DTV
maximization applications by full power television stations.1 All applications filed from the date of
release of the Public Notice through June 20, 2008, as well as applications filed prior to release of the
Public Notice which requested a waiver of the filing freeze, were treated for cut-off purposes as being
filed on June 20, 2008.
Current DTV processing rules provide mutually exclusive applicants a 90-day period of time to resolve
their mutual exclusivity via an engineering amendment or settlement; applications that remain mutually
exclusive at the end of this period are to be dismissed. 2 Because the public interest would be served by
facilitating completion of maximization facilities whenever possible before the end of the statutory DTV
transition deadline, the Commission also announced in the Public Notice that, with respect to applications
filed between the release of the Public Notice and the end of the DTV transition deadline, it intended to
grant mutually exclusive applications subject to the condition that the applicants resolve their mutual
exclusivity within 30 days of grant of the applications.3 Construction permits that remained in conflict
with another construction permit at the end of this period would be cancelled and the stations required to
file new applications.
By this Public Notice, the Media Bureau grants the groups of mutually exclusive applications listed in
Attachment A, subject to the condition that each station resolve its mutual exclusivity within 30 days of
the date of this public notice. Stations may resolve their mutual exclusivity with other stations in their
group by means of engineering amendments or by interference consent agreements. Technical
amendments submitted by stations must be minor, as defined by applicable rules, and must not create new
mutual exclusivity or application conflict. Stations must submit their engineering proposals and/or
interference consent agreements on FCC Forms 301 and 340, using the Commission’s Consolidated
Database System (“CDBS”) Electronic Filing system via the Internet from the Media Bureau’s Web site
at: http://www.fcc.gov/mb/cdbs.html or http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbs_ef.htm. The
Commission will cancel the maximized facility construction permits of stations which fail to resolve their
mutual exclusivities within 30 days.

1 Commission Lifts the Freeze on the Filing of Maximization Applications and Petitions for Digital Channel
Substitutions, Effective Immediately, 23 FCC Rcd 8330 (MB 2008)(“Freeze Public Notice”).
2 47 C.F.R. § 73.623(h)(3).
3 Freeze Public Notice, 23 FCC Rcd at 8332.
For further information, contact the Media Bureau’s Video Division: Kevin Harding,
Kevin.harding@fcc.gov at (202) 418-7077 or Hossein Hashemzadeh, hossein.hashemzadeh@fcc.gov at
(202) 418-1658. TTY: (202) 418-7171.
Attachment A
GROUP #1
WCTE-DT
BMPEDT-20080620ADW
Cookeville, TN
WPXK-DT
BPCDT-20080620AGZ
Jellico, TN
GROUP #2
KLTV-DT
BMPCDT-20080619AAU
Tyler, TX
WFAA-DT
BMPCDT-20080617ADW
Dallas, TX
GROUP #3
KCCO-DT
BMPCDT-20080619AAV
Alexandria, MN
KJRR-DT
BMPCDT-20080619ADZ
Jamestown, ND
GROUP #4
KLTL-DT
BPEDT-20080619AGE
Lake Charles, LA

KFDM-DT
BPCDT- 20080618AAY
Beaumont, TX

foxeng

04-03-09, 01:15 PM

POST-TRANSITION DTV TABLE OF ALLOTMENTS, 47 C.F.R. § 73.622(I), BUFFALO, NEW YORK. Proposed substituting channel 49 for channel 34 for Station WNYO-DT. (Dkt No. 09-46, RM-11524). Action by: Chief, Video Divison, Media Bureau. Adopted: 03/26/2009 by NPRM. (DA No. 09-739). MB DA-09-739A1.doc DA-09-739A1.pdf DA-09-739A1.txt

Trip in VA

04-06-09, 12:23 AM

Another set of fill-in translators.

First of all, I neglected to mention DT-42 in Front Royal, VA. This is a fill-in translator for WHSV. Does nothing for the mountainous area and is more for Winchester.

The new one is more interesting. KIRO in Seattle has asked for DT-34 in Olympia and DT-28 in Mount Vernon. The latter is interesting because the transmitter they're requesting is outside the analog contour, directional facing in. Is it just DTS that have to stay inside the contour? I thought fill-in translators had to as well.

- Trip

Inundated

04-06-09, 09:41 AM

First of all, I neglected to mention DT-42 in Front Royal, VA. This is a fill-in translator for WHSV. Does nothing for the mountainous area and is more for Winchester.

Presumably, this is due to WHSV's Winchester-focused subchannel, "TV 3 Winchester". It runs ABC, like the main channel, but produces news and sells advertising aimed at Winchester. The main WHSV-DT is probably a tough catch there.

Trip in VA

04-06-09, 11:14 AM

Presumably, this is due to WHSV's Winchester-focused subchannel, "TV 3 Winchester". It runs ABC, like the main channel, but produces news and sells advertising aimed at Winchester. The main WHSV-DT is probably a tough catch there.

Yes, it's led me to wonder if the "fill-in translator" will actually translate WHSV's main signal or if it will have separate "TV3 Winchester" HD programming on 3-1, leaving 3-3 on the main feed for something else. I don't think it'd be legal, but I could see them trying it.

EDIT: I just checked into it on a hunch; looks like WHSV is actually buying WVPY's analog gear. It's the same antenna, at the very least.

- Trip

bicker1

04-06-09, 01:27 PM

Trip in VA

04-06-09, 01:30 PM

WNVC-DT is completely off the air because signing on would interfere with WUTB analog, but that's not what you asked for.

WAKA-DT in Montgomery AL might be a good example. They're operating DT-42 at 50 kW because WIAT-42 in Birmingham still has their analog on. Once it goes away, they'll boost it to 1000 kW.

- Trip

CHeath

04-06-09, 02:30 PM

Does anyone have a good example, on the tip of their fingers, of where a digital television station is being kept at low power, because if they had gone to full power, that would interfere with a nearby analog channel that is still operating? I know there are many such examples; I just don't have a concrete one handy.

In my neck of the woods, WHRO-DT has been at a lower power on agreement with WBOC. When WBOC analog goes dark, WHRO can go full power.

Trip in VA

04-06-09, 04:15 PM

bicker1

04-06-09, 04:21 PM

Thanks Trip and CHeath... just what I needed.

MarioMania

04-06-09, 07:38 PM

TalkingRat

04-06-09, 09:24 PM

Can anyone here help out, I don't know if this is the right thread or not

I found a channel guide or info about what Stations have gone to digital..on wikipedia..it has a chart of the station the city & if it digtal only or both...I can't seem to remember the name of it

Trip has some stuff on Wiki, but until he replies, here is his rabbitears.info website with DTV Market Listings by major metro area. Loads of detail inside.

http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php

ETA the two FCC databases (not 100% accurate) on what stations are doing analog shutdown June 12 and what stations are going earlier:

June 12
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-09-589A2.pdf

Earlier:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-09-589A3.pdf

Trip in VA

04-06-09, 10:15 PM

Trip has some stuff on Wiki, but until he replies, here is his rabbitears.info website with DTV Market Listings by major metro area. Loads of detail inside.

I gave up my shutdown list after the FCC started changing the rules every 5 minutes. I basically gave up on even keeping up with it. Too much other stuff to do.

I'm not even sure which page on Wikipedia might have it.

I've just sort of tuned out of the analog shutoff dates completely. Falcon_77 posts in the respective thread when one's about to go or e-mails me or both, so I haven't kept up with it any. I just worry about subchannels and technical data at this point--it takes up plenty of time just doing that.

- Trip

TalkingRat

04-06-09, 10:45 PM

I was hoping the FCC would update its list, but no such luck.

I lost interest once all my stations caved to pressure. I'm stuck with their transmitter and adjacent channel problems until the bitter end. The only thing that keeps me amused is the arrival of new subchannels.

Too bad about the job, Trip. What, were they looking for talking heads?

Trip in VA

04-06-09, 10:58 PM

I lost interest once all my stations caved to pressure. I'm stuck with their transmitter and adjacent channel problems until the bitter end. The only thing that keeps me amused is the arrival of new subchannels.

I watch for info on subchannels all the time, one of my favorite pastimes. Amusing fact, one of the best places for sampling subchannels is Wausau WI. They have all of the major ones except MHz WorldView and RTN. This TV, Universal Sports, Untamed Sports TV, the ION subs, all there.

Too bad about the job, Trip. What, were they looking for talking heads?

Apparently, people working with non-technical stuff, business people, marketing people, you know, the expendable people. The people you could can and the station would still be on the air with a signal.

Bitter? Nah... :D

I'll find something else. No worries. :)

- Trip

Trip in VA

04-07-09, 12:35 AM

Add another pair of "fill-in" translators. KXLY wants two.

- Trip

DaveFormula

04-07-09, 11:20 AM

Well, folks, it looks like I won't be working with WDBJ this summer. My application with the VAB for a summer internship was declined because apparently electrical engineering is not a broadcasting related field. I suspect that will surprise the many engineers here reading, but your equipment apparently installs and maintains itself! :D

They just probably told you that as a convenient excuse.:eek:

Now I have to figure out what to do with myself this summer.

- Trip
Find a girl friend and enjoy the summer. :cool:

Trip in VA

04-07-09, 01:14 PM

They just probably told you that as a convenient excuse.:eek:

I figure they saw "electrical engineer" and didn't read any further into how it applies to broadcasting.

Find a girl friend and enjoy the summer. :cool:

Girl friend? What's that? :p

Nah, seriously though, I need to find something to do. Need to get my foot in the door!

I mean, you wouldn't want me just sitting there working on my website all summer, would you? :D

- Trip

gjvrieze

04-07-09, 02:05 PM

I figure they saw "electrical engineer" and didn't read any further into how it applies to broadcasting.
Ya, HR....:(

Girl friend? What's that? :p LOL

Nah, seriously though, I need to find something to do. Need to get my foot in the door!

I mean, you wouldn't want me just sitting there working on my website all summer, would you? :D

- Trip

Maybe it would not be a bad idea to get in touch with a lead engineer at stations which you are planning to apply, that may help get your foot in the door... It has to be a hard time, as a lot of stations are laying off, not looking for new people....

And yes, I EXPECT you to give up your life and summer to your website! ROFL....

DaveFormula

04-07-09, 02:35 PM

I figure they saw "electrical engineer" and didn't read any further into how it applies to broadcasting.

Hmmm.. perhaps just using the title engineer would have been more accepted.

Girl friend? What's that? :p

Or boy friend, no one is judging you here.

Nah, seriously though, I need to find something to do. Need to get my foot in the door!

May be you could get a job with a WISP (Wireless ISP) in your area. You could use both you RF and computer skills. Napoleon.

I mean, you wouldn't want me just sitting there working on my website all summer, would you? :D

- Trip
No not really. You've got the rest of your life to be a nerd.

Trip in VA

04-07-09, 06:11 PM

Maybe it would not be a bad idea to get in touch with a lead engineer at stations which you are planning to apply, that may help get your foot in the door... It has to be a hard time, as a lot of stations are laying off, not looking for new people....

And yes, I EXPECT you to give up your life and summer to your website! ROFL....

Haha, if I was getting paid, I would absolutely spend all summer on the website.

I actually was in touch with the engineer at WDBJ, who reads this forum actually, and he wanted me. However, in order to get paid to do it, I had to go through the VAB.

Or boy friend, no one is judging you here.

That wasn't what I meant. :p

I mean I never get out of my apartment.

May be you could get a job with a WISP (Wireless ISP) in your area. You could use both you RF and computer skills. Napoleon.

Ugh, no. I don't like my ISP. The less I have to put up with them, the better off I am. A good friend of mine worked there and left very quickly.

- Trip

Larry Kenney

04-07-09, 07:30 PM

Does anyone have a good example, on the tip of their fingers, of where a digital television station is being kept at low power, because if they had gone to full power, that would interfere with a nearby analog channel that is still operating?

Not exactly what you were looking for, but KTNC, Concord, CA, which transmits from Mt. Diablo, had to turn off their channel 63 transmitter so they could remove it and get their new channel 14 transmitter installed by 2/17. They went off the air January 12th, and then along came the Congressional delay in the transition date.

Now they have their new channel 14 digital transmitter installed and ready to go, but they can't turn it on. KDTV analog is stlll on channel 14, so they have to wait until June 13 to turn on their new transmitter. That means they will have no digital signal for five months!

Now I have to figure out what to do with myself this summer.

Lots of stations hire vacation relief engineers for the summer months. Send out some resumes and maybe you'll be lucky and get a temporary gig for a few weeks.

FYI to all... KICU-DT San Jose changed their digital operation from channel 52 to their post-transition and former analog channel 36 this morning, 4/7. They're about 6 dB stronger here in San Francisco now.

I'll send you a TSReader scan, Trip.

Larry
SF

arxaw

04-08-09, 10:14 AM

Does anyone have a good example, on the tip of their fingers, of where a digital television station is being kept at low power, because if they had gone to full power, that would interfere with a nearby analog channel that is still operating? I know there are many such examples; I just don't have a concrete one handy.PBS affiliate, KETS-DT is off completely off the air until Allbritton's KATV shuts down analog 7, which KETS-DT was supposed to transmit on with a new antenna & transmitter in Feb.

KETS being dark is due to an analog tower collapse, plus the obama administration's DTV delay and KATV's foot dragging. KATV could've asked to shut down early. But they chose not to, citing "ratings" issues, "public good" blah blah blah, clinging to analog television to the bitter end.

Meanwhile, Little Rock Arkansas has been without PBS OTA availability since February. And they won't have PBS OTA until the middle of June.

Allbritton sucks.

ChrisC47

04-08-09, 11:03 AM

Well, folks, it looks like I won't be working with WDBJ this summer. My application with the VAB for a summer internship was declined because apparently electrical engineering is not a broadcasting related field. I suspect that will surprise the many engineers here reading, but your equipment apparently installs and maintains itself! :D

Oh my god, that is hilarious. Seriously, someone here who knows someone at WDBJ should contact them and tell them their HR is 180 out. Even if the internship is non-technical, they should snap up Trip pronto. Sooner or later the CE will walk over and take him away from running the copier :)

- Chris, electrical engineer working in broadcast

Trip in VA

04-08-09, 11:19 AM

Oh my god, that is hilarious. Seriously, someone here who knows someone at WDBJ should contact them and tell them their HR is 180 out. Even if the internship is non-technical, they should snap up Trip pronto. Sooner or later the CE will walk over and take him away from running the copier :)

- Chris, electrical engineer working in broadcast

Don't blame WDBJ, this was solely through the VAB. I know the folks I spoke with at WDBJ wanted me, but said if I wanted to get paid, I'd have to go through VAB.

- Trip

foxeng

04-08-09, 03:54 PM

Then Allen needs to get on the horn and get VAB straightened out and PRONTO!

TalkingRat

04-08-09, 05:56 PM

Then Allen needs to get on the horn and get VAB straightened out and PRONTO!

That makes a lot of sense. If the VAB hasn't ever hired a technical intern, it's time the Engineers got in line and made the case for a technical intern. The Engineer can point out he's prepared to mentor a technical intern this summer. And can remind the VAB that the broadcasting industry has to compete with all those high tech companies for EEs, so when you find a candidate with the right skills for broadcasting, you want 8 weeks to sell them on a broadcasting career in the VAB area. :D

If the VAB has already spent their intern money, it can't cost them that much more to support an intern for 8 weeks. And if anybody declines the offer, they already have it filled, with a technical intern hire.

Trip in VA

04-08-09, 06:39 PM

Don't worry, folks, I'm sure thing's will get sorted out one way or another. I'm not too concerned at this point. :)

And Larry, thanks, I'll be glad to have that capture.

- Trip

dr1394

04-08-09, 07:07 PM

MarioMania

04-08-09, 09:01 PM

I found it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_television_stations_in_North_America

thanks for the help guys

Trip in VA

04-08-09, 09:29 PM

TalkingRat

04-08-09, 10:52 PM

Trip, you could work "Broadcast Engineering," into your resume. It's a good idea to season your resume it with a few broadcasting buzzwords, since many companies these days use resume software that auto screens candidates as jobs are available, and the only way for your resume to see the light of day is if it has the keywords associated with their job descriptions.

So consider where to work "broadcast engineering" in. One great place is the Objective section, since you are not restricted to the formal title of your major, and it's where people put career aspirations until they can say something like 20 years experience in broadcast engineering. And it's at the top, so a human reader sees your interest in broadcast engineering right away.

A second place you can add it is in the education section. In resumes at least, you are free to add more info beyond the basic degree facts. How about a couple lines with courses, workshops, or projects that emphasize the broadcast engineering side of your education? Until you have lots of job related experience, detail about courses related to the job can show how your formal training is a good fit for the job, which can help get you an interview. If you go to a school where you really did get depth in broadcast engineering but are stuck with a generic EE title, consider something like "EE, with emphasis in Broadcast Engineering" and then list a sampling of course topics related to the job. Or perhaps you have enough courses to call it a minor?

If you have something that sets you apart from every other EE applicant, find a place for it on your resume. There's always the "professional associations and interests" section, which can show how serious you have been about broadcast engineering, and that it's been a long term interest.

gbynum

04-09-09, 10:16 AM

You're probably right, but technically speaking the title of my major here at UVA is "Electrical Engineering."When I went to school, many years ago, we had Electrical Engineering with 3 "options", electronics, power, and computers. When my son graduated college just a few years ago, he had a degree in "Mathematical Sciences, Operations Research Option". Mine was NCSU, his Clemson ... does UVA do anything similar?

Trip in VA

04-09-09, 10:47 AM

When I went to school, many years ago, we had Electrical Engineering with 3 "options", electronics, power, and computers. When my son graduated college just a few years ago, he had a degree in "Mathematical Sciences, Operations Research Option". Mine was NCSU, his Clemson ... does UVA do anything similar?

We have "concentrations." Mine is in "Communications" but apparently even that can get subdivided according to my advisor.

- Trip

sustorm

04-09-09, 12:10 PM

mrvideo

04-09-09, 11:23 PM

Has anyone been successful in petitioning a local Major network to add a subchannel? I would like to a see sub channel on WNYS or WSYT. Other Sinclair stations are broadcasting THISTV and I hoping they would add this to their station. Any ideas would be great.

I think you mean to say major network affiliate, as major networks can't add subchannels. They could force their O&O stations to add subchannels, but they can't force affiliates to do anything of the sort.

That said, I hope you aren't serious. Adding subchannels destroys the quality of the main HD channel. As the ATSC standard now stands, there aren't enough bits to even do 1080i HD right. Adding subchannels just makes a borderline operation cross that line. The subchannel doesn't fair any better either.

Trip in VA

04-10-09, 12:08 AM

That said, I hope you aren't serious. Adding subchannels destroys the quality of the main HD channel. As the ATSC standard now stands, there aren't enough bits to even do 1080i HD right. Adding subchannels just makes a borderline operation cross that line. The subchannel doesn't fair any better either.

He's referring primarily to the Fox affiliate WSYT, which is already doing an SD simulcast, and we both know how Fox is to start with, so it's not like it'll be hurting anything there...

- Trip

mrvideo

04-10-09, 12:28 AM

He's referring primarily to the Fox affiliate WSYT, which is already doing an SD simulcast, and we both know how Fox is to start with, so it's not like it'll be hurting anything there...

Similcast, as in repeating the HD video on an SD stream?

Ya, Fox is already crippling every Fox affiliate, if they like it or not. Adding another SD stream to what they have would make both SD streams really look like crap, especially since they can't steal any bits from the HD stream.

Trip in VA

04-10-09, 12:33 AM

Similcast, as in repeating the HD video on an SD stream?

Simulcast, yes. Many stations which have them have been replacing their SD simulcasts with useful programming, which is what he's arguing for.

And honestly, in my opinion, if they're going to suck the bandwidth away to something else, it should at least be something somewhat useful and not a 100% useless SD simulcast.

- Trip

mrvideo

04-10-09, 12:59 AM

Simulcast, yes. Many stations which have them have been replacing their SD simulcasts with useful programming, which is what he's arguing for.

OK, more info.

When the local CW affiliate finally went on the air with HD, they were doing SD main and HD sub, as they were still figuring things out. Once they did, they swapped. They kept the SD simulcast going for a long time before finally deciding to pull it. AFAIK, they are still only doing HD. I don't know as I get my CW HD programming via other means. No one else in this market simulcasted.

And honestly, in my opinion, if they're going to suck the bandwidth away to something else, it should at least be something somewhat useful and not a 100% useless SD simulcast.

IMHO, the bandwidth shouldn't be sucked at all. Unfortunately with the Fox affiliates, they have no choice. The bits are lost, no matter what.

arxaw

04-10-09, 08:40 AM

...IMHO, the bandwidth shouldn't be sucked at all. Unfortunately with the Fox affiliates, they have no choice. The bits are lost, no matter what.I am totally against sub channels, too, but you can look at it two ways.

Stations are scrambling to make money and if they think they can make any at all with multicasting, most are going to do it, once they figure out how and what to add. Fox knows this and at least they are limiting how much bandwidth the local affiliate can take away from the main HD channel. And it is less of an issue with 720p than 1080i.

zorinlynx

04-10-09, 12:18 PM

Simulcast, yes. Many stations which have them have been replacing their SD simulcasts with useful programming, which is what he's arguing for.

And honestly, in my opinion, if they're going to suck the bandwidth away to something else, it should at least be something somewhat useful and not a 100% useless SD simulcast.

- Trip

How do stations justify an SD simulcast of their HD main anyway? It's the same content; if someone wants to watch it on an SD set, all current STBs can downconvert...

arxaw

04-10-09, 01:37 PM

How do stations justify an SD simulcast of their HD main anyway? It's the same content; if someone wants to watch it on an SD set, all current STBs can downconvert...I've never understood that, either. It's a complete waste of bandwidth.

narkspud

04-10-09, 01:41 PM

How do stations justify an SD simulcast of their HD main anyway? It's the same content; if someone wants to watch it on an SD set, all current STBs can downconvert...

For cable systems. To avoid "chopped-off sides" syndrome for their analog customers.

arxaw

04-10-09, 01:51 PM

huh? The SD sub channel of an HD channel is zoomed & cropped.

KE0MI

04-10-09, 02:59 PM

Not if the station uses AFD in the stream. The process is dynamic, based on the content creators' preferred format for downconversion (center cut, letterbox, 14x9, etc.).

ChrisC47

04-10-09, 10:38 PM

narkspud is right. I have it first-hand that that is precisely why one Atlanta station is doing SD simulcast.

coyoteaz

04-11-09, 12:54 AM

If the station already has AFD up and working, then the downstream providers should be able to use it to accomplish the same thing.

dr1394

04-11-09, 06:56 AM

If the station already has AFD up and working, then the downstream providers should be able to use it to accomplish the same thing.
Is anyone actually using AFD? That is, has anyone captured an OTA stream with AFD?

Ron

foxeng

04-11-09, 08:58 AM

We are TRYING to send AFD but the receiver that says it will work with AFD won't switch so either we don't have something set right or the receiver doesn't do it even though it says it does.

cat lady

04-11-09, 10:02 AM

How do stations justify an SD simulcast of their HD main anyway? It's the same content; if someone wants to watch it on an SD set, all current STBs can downconvert...

For some reason I have lost CC on the HD FOX network programming (Three different staions. Lake Charles, Port Arthur, Houston.) Thank God for the sub-channel SD simulcast on one of my local FOX affiliates (KVHP). CC is fine on that...

Trip in VA

04-11-09, 11:00 AM

Is anyone actually using AFD? That is, has anyone captured an OTA stream with AFD?

Ron

Try Fox during primetime. I've been told a number of older receivers are choking on the splicer feed due to AFD.

- Trip

narkspud

04-11-09, 06:28 PM

If the station already has AFD up and working, then the downstream providers should be able to use it to accomplish the same thing.

You're making the incorrect assumption that the downstream providers are using something other than a Sansonic CECB to convert the signal.

Dr Touchtone

04-11-09, 07:54 PM

Maybe you should use the term "Electronics" instead of "Electrical" on your resume. That's because when I see "Electrical Engineer", I think of a guy/gal that works on motors, relays, wiring cabinets and 480 volt 3-phase systems.

Check the second paragraph in the wikipedia entry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_engineering

Ron

Actually to use the name Engineer in some states without an Engineering Degree or License is illegal!!! The "engineer" at a radio or TV station is a technician...thats it...their "legal" name is OPERATOR (or Chief Operator for the lead) in the FCC rules.
Been down that road before....I know several Electrical or Electronic Engineers....some could not work at a broadcast station!!:eek: They just would not get it! One EE I had issues with was even a ham; Extra class..but didnt know RF as well as I did (He tried to say a base loaded or on glass(!) lowband VHF antenna was as good as a full size quarter wave radiator! I won in the end with pattern plots from a homemade antenna range and used an IFR 1200S to make my case; the company ended up wasting over $750 on those stupid things that wound up in the trash ;)

dr1394

04-11-09, 09:18 PM

We are TRYING to send AFD but the receiver that says it will work with AFD won't switch so either we don't have something set right or the receiver doesn't do it even though it says it does.

Try Fox during primetime. I've been told a number of older receivers are choking on the splicer feed due to AFD.

- Trip
Thanx. I'll check it out next week.

Ron

ChrisC47

04-13-09, 08:05 AM

A quick, easy question for you guys, and I'll go back to lurking ...

Do stations need to file with the FCC if they are dropping on June 12th? Or only if they are dropping sooner?

I thought they did, but I haven't seen much happening here, and I expected we would see that activity by now. When are the relevant deadlines?

foxeng

04-13-09, 08:13 AM

arxaw

04-13-09, 09:02 AM

...Just a handful have attempted to shutdown early with only a few of those getting approved and mostly PBS'. The FCC just last week denied KARD and KTVE from shutting down early.Which is ridiculous.

Not allowing KTVE to shut down is preventing the Arkansas PBS affiliate in South Arkanas from getting on the air, because they are going to use KTVE's analog channel. Nexstar mentioned this but the FCC ignored it.

However, part of the blame lies with AETN (Ark. Edu. TV Network) for not petitioning the FCC in favor of KTVE's shutdown request.

Trip in VA

04-13-09, 09:10 AM

Yes. At this point an overwhelming majority are staying until June 12th. Just a handful have attempted to shutdown early with only a few of those getting approved and mostly PBS'. The FCC just last week denied KARD and KTVE from shutting down early.

As I recall, those are the only two stations denied out of the 140+ that applied.

- Trip

KE0MI

04-13-09, 11:52 AM

Is anyone actually using AFD? That is, has anyone captured an OTA stream with AFD?

Ron
KOMU has been using AFD for quite some time. Before that KOB in New Mexico had been working with NBC on AFD transmission.

I don't have a way to capture the transport stream, yet.

arxaw

04-13-09, 04:38 PM

I hope it works better than PSIP or DD5.1. It seems like more often than not, neither one works well.

KE0MI

04-13-09, 05:07 PM

I'm actually surprised that stations haven't jumped onto this for their downconverts, in particular for cable and satellite distributors. It (virtually) eliminates the postage stamp display of 4x3 material in a 16x9 format, the primary exceptions being syndicated HD with SD elements embedded. DD 5.1 done right is hard... AFD is easy.

sustorm

04-13-09, 05:26 PM

Simulcast, yes. Many stations which have them have been replacing their SD simulcasts with useful programming, which is what he's arguing for.

And honestly, in my opinion, if they're going to suck the bandwidth away to something else, it should at least be something somewhat useful and not a 100% useless SD simulcast.

- Trip

Thanks for articulating my point for me, I am really asking if it is worth my time to petition my local Fox affiliate to broadcast something worth while as a sub channel, instead of FOXSD or is this something they are required to do?

ChrisC47

04-13-09, 05:41 PM

Do stations need to file with the FCC if they are dropping on June 12th? Or only if they are dropping sooner?

Yes. At this point an overwhelming majority are staying until June 12th. Just a handful have attempted to shutdown early with only a few of those getting approved and mostly PBS'. The FCC just last week denied KARD and KTVE from shutting down early.

Yes to which? Sorry, I should have formatted the question differently.

Or just ask one question :) Do stations need to file with the FCC if they are dropping on June 12th?

foxeng

04-13-09, 05:53 PM

Do stations need to file with the FCC if they are dropping on June 12th?

Like I said earlier, yes. ALL stations had to specify when they wanted to end analog and that deadline has passed.

arxaw

04-13-09, 05:55 PM

... I am really asking if it is worth my time to petition my local Fox affiliate to broadcast something worth while as a sub channel, instead of FOXSD or is this something they are required to do?We get two Fox affiliates OTA here. Neither one of them broadcasts FOX SD on a sub channel. One broadcasts their sister affiliate's NBC-SD due to terrain issues for part of the DMA. The other FOX affiliate has no sub channels.

Dr Touchtone

04-13-09, 07:37 PM

Which is ridiculous.

Not allowing KTVE to shut down is preventing the Arkansas PBS affiliate in South Arkanas from getting on the air, because they are going to use KTVE's analog channel. Nexstar mentioned this but the FCC ignored it.

However, part of the blame lies with AETN (Ark. Edu. TV Network) for not petitioning the FCC in favor of KTVE's shutdown request.

Hmmm time for a catastrophic analog transmitter failure!:D

foxeng

04-13-09, 07:50 PM

Hmmm time for a catastrophic analog transmitter failure!:D

From what I hear, that could be at ANY moment!

arxaw

04-13-09, 10:14 PM

You may be right. Klystron failures seem to be popular at Nexstar.

wintertime

04-15-09, 01:27 AM

Do stations need to file with the FCC if they are dropping on June 12th? Or only if they are dropping sooner?

Everyone who was still transmitting an analog signal had to notify the FCC of their intentions by March 17th. And their intentions were heavily limited by some last-minute rules the Commission imposed about who could sign off before June 12th.

Patty

foxeng

04-15-09, 09:26 AM

DTV Notes
Raleigh To Be First Real-World Mobile DTV Market
WRAL will broadcast to buses this summer
By Glen Dickson, Broadcasting & Cable - 4/14/2009 2:30:51 PM MT

CBS affiliate and Capitol Broadcasting station WRAL announced that it will launch mobile digital television (DTV) broadcasts to everyday consumers this summer, making Raleigh, N.C. the first U.S. market to commercially deploy mobile DTV.

The station is working with technology vendors LG Electronics and Harris to create a system that will use WRAL's digital spectrum to deliver both linear programming and interactive data to Capital Area Transit (CAT) buses serving passengers throughout the capital city. Beginning this summer, CAT bus passengers will be able to watch WRAL's local, syndicated and network programming throughout the day. In addition to WRAL programming, CAT passengers will also get city-oriented news briefs, real-time weather and other information on digital screens strategically placed inside buses.

The Open Mobile Video Coalition, which represents over 800 stations interested in providing mobile DTV services, announced at the CES show last January that stations in 22 markets would begin mobile DTV broadcasts this year using a new ATSC candidate standard based on the "MPH" technology developed by LG and Harris. That WRAL would be the first OMVC member station to declare its plans is not surprising, as the station has long prided itself on being a technology vanguard: it launched the first commercial HDTV broadcasts in the U.S. back in July 1996, and began doing field tests of mobile DTV last summer.

"Mobile DTV broadcasting is a major part of our future and we are excited to partner with the City of Raleigh as we enter a new era of technology," said James F. Goodmon, President and CEO of Capitol Broadcasting Company, Inc, in a statement. "Mobile DTV enables WRAL to better serve the public by extending our reach with free over-the-air programming and information to people on the go."

LG is providing mobile DTV receivers, flat screen monitors and project development and support, while Harris is supplying its complete "MPH platform for ATSC Mobile DTV", InfoCaster digital signage systems and development and support services. Microspace Communications Corporation will provide wireless networking and digital signage system management, while Digital Recorders, Inc (DRI) will provide integration of the communications systems on the CAT buses.

The first mobile DTV-capable bus in Raleigh is expected to be fully operational this summer, and additional buses will be equipped and rolled out over the next twelve months.

"We are proud to be the pilot to offer mobile digital television to the riders of the Downtown Circulator," said Raleigh Mayor Charles Meeker in a statement. "We salute WRAL for being pioneers in mobile digital television as they were in high definition television. We look forward to the day when all of Raleigh's CAT buses will offer this means of information and relaxation."

Mobile DTV should be a hot topic at the NAB show in Las Vegas next week, where the OMVC is expected to provide further details on its launch plans and various vendors will be demonstrating products using the new ATSC mobile DTV candidate standard. NAB is also hosting a Mobile Entertainment Summit, featuring representatives from networks, handset manufacturers and carriers, on the Wednesday of the show.

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/196239-Raleigh_To_Be_First_Real_World_Mobile_DTV_Market.php

Trip in VA

04-15-09, 05:23 PM

KDMI-DT's relocation from channel 31 to channel 19 was approved today.

- Trip

Trip in VA

04-18-09, 12:42 AM

It is quiet in here.

WSWB's petition to keep DT-31 post-transition was approved.

- Trip

MarioMania

04-18-09, 01:43 AM

I'm annoyed with Digital in my area...

I get Analog 10 & 13 in good with my antanna..not so in digital, I tryed everywhere in the
house for UHF Reception even up-stairs, No Go :(

I hate living near houses, Trees & Hills

Calaveras

04-18-09, 10:39 AM

You should take this to the Local HDTV Info and Reception thread where you can get some help.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=45

I can tell you that DTV with an indoor antenna is a hit and miss proposition. If it's a miss for you, then you need an outdoor antenna.

Allan Jayne

04-19-09, 07:13 AM

Just out of curiosity.
Why would a station with analog and digital channel assignments close to each other not want to reclaim the analog channel as its final channel?

Scooper

04-19-09, 07:34 AM

$$$$$$
My local Fox channel has it's analog on 50, and it's permament / current DTV on 49. No real reason to spend the extra dollars.

Cases where it DOES make sense - moving from a temp UHF digital to a Hi VHF digital.

foxeng

04-19-09, 08:35 AM

Just out of curiosity.
Why would a station with analog and digital channel assignments close to each other not want to reclaim the analog channel as its final channel?

The cost involved to make the change. If a station has already spent the money for a digital channel and it does what the station needs, why spend MORE money on a channel that will not increase coverage?

Tower Guy

04-19-09, 11:01 AM

Just out of curiosity.
Why would a station with analog and digital channel assignments close to each other not want to reclaim the analog channel as its final channel?

There are two aspects to the cost of a channel move.

One is the mask filter. It is a special order item that costs in the 20-40 K range.

Two is the antenna. Some top mount antennas are not that good for DTV. They may have VSWR issues or beam tilt problems across the channel. Those characteristics didn't matter as much for analog. A top mount antenna is in the 200K+ range, the installation is 50-100K depending on tower height.

Bottom line, it could cost from 250K-500K just to move one channel.

The logistics of switching channels may also preclude a channel change. WCAX in Burlington, VT switched channels from 51+ to 22. They had to switch the tube type transmitter one IOT at a time. It took about 4-6 weeks.

Sammer

04-19-09, 05:58 PM

Why would a station with analog and digital channel assignments close to each other not want to reclaim the analog channel as its final channel?Another thing they have to consider is the interference it might cause some other digital station if they move.

Piggie

04-19-09, 11:54 PM

Cases where it DOES make sense - moving from a temp UHF digital to a Hi VHF digital.

To me it begs the question, why did so many VHF channels that went UHF for digital only to flash cut back to their old VHF channel need to ever be digital on UHF?

I know the laws and rules, they were pretty much forced to do it but besides that.

Meant they had to buy an antenna, feed line in many cases or at least a diplexers, transmitter. Why were they not just allowed to flash cut without ever having gone digital for years on some UHF channel?

Trip in VA

04-20-09, 12:05 AM

Add another DTS; WMBC-DT wants a second transmitter at Times Square...

- Trip

milehighmike

04-20-09, 01:48 AM

Posted by piggie:
To me it begs the question, why did so many VHF channels that went UHF for digital only to flash cut back to their old VHF channel need to ever be digital on UHF?

I know the laws and rules, they were pretty much forced to do it but besides that.

Meant they had to buy an antenna, feed line in many cases or at least a diplexers, transmitter. Why were they not just allowed to flash cut without ever having gone digital for years on some UHF channel?
Not quite sure I understand your logic. So UHF stations had to pay the penalty of spending $ on two operations but VHF'ers should be exempt and just flash cut in June? Also, most of the top 50 DMA's, probably the top 100, had major networks on analog VHF-hi. So our ABC and NBC affiliates here in Denver would still be analog, with no HD?

Falcon_77

04-20-09, 11:31 AM

To me it begs the question, why did so many VHF channels that went UHF for digital only to flash cut back to their old VHF channel need to ever be digital on UHF?

Most full power stations were required to initiate digital broadcasts years ago and since no upper VHF channels were available in many areas, due to existing analog stations, they had to go to UHF. Low-VHF seems to have been an unpopular choice from the beginning.

A question I have is why the stations basically shouldered this burden while keeping it under wraps as much as they could. I suppose operating expenses were tax deductible at least and the economy was better in past years.

Still, it doesn't seem logical to provide a service for years and not tell anyone about it (maybe they did for a day or two when they first went on the air?). I only found out about DTV when my brother told me about it.

jsmar

04-20-09, 04:40 PM

Try Fox during primetime. I've been told a number of older receivers are choking on the splicer feed due to AFD.
- Trip

I can verify that at least our local Fox station (KDVR in Denver) does send AFD when it is broadcasting network programming (and it does not send AFD at other times). They typically alternate between active format 0xA (not OK to centercut) for commercials (regardless of actual content) and active format 0xF (OK to centercut) for 16x9 HD content. I haven't tested AFD conformance with my DTVpal or my Zenith DTT900. The DTVpal is supposed to support AFD. The DTT901 supposedly supports AFD, but I don't know about the DTT900.

As far as I can tell, the only other stations in Denver to send AFD are KUSA (NBC) and KRMA (PBS), but they are only send the AFD description with active format set to 0 (undefined), i.e. the AFD they are sending is not useful. No station in Denver is currently sending ATSC bar data.

At first I thought Trip was wrong, because TSReader Lite didn't see any AFD on the Fox station (it saw the bogus AFD on KUSA and KRMA). However, I discovered that AFD detection in TSReader Lite is broken, at least in version 2.8 build E (the newest is build F, but I didn't see any mention of an AFD bug fix).

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know 1) if any stations are sending ATSC bar data, and 2) if any tuners/converter boxes actually use it if it is received?

Piggie

04-23-09, 11:28 AM

Most full power stations were required to initiate digital broadcasts years ago and since no upper VHF channels were available in many areas, due to existing analog stations, they had to go to UHF. Low-VHF seems to have been an unpopular choice from the beginning.

Yeah, I understand they had to go digital. I was in the rules. And UHF was more logical for free channels.

A question I have is why the stations basically shouldered this burden while keeping it under wraps as much as they could. I suppose operating expenses were tax deductible at least and the economy was better in past years.

Still, it doesn't seem logical to provide a service for years and not tell anyone about it (maybe they did for a day or two when they first went on the air?). I only found out about DTV when my brother told me about it.

Now you just asked the core of my question back to me. This is what I meant by the post. You stated it better.

A lot of the stations that flash cut back to UHF or even UHF. They spend or were required to at the minimum a transmitter they would only use for 3 years, and in some cases the whole thing, tower rent, feed line, antenna.

Exactly, how can they justify that expense for 3 years?

And you add the coup de gras that after that money was spend, digital TV was a forgotten step child.

I had been totally away from things like broadcasting for 8 years running businesses on the internet. My TV failed. I did some research and found the DTV was already here, and needed to buy a TV with ATSC. Got my TV home, hooked up an antenna and was blown away compared to my D* SD service.

Like you I found out about DTV on a by the way.

Good point you made also. Most blame (including me) on very very poor customer education campaign (it's almost a day late and dollar short now), after local channels had their DTV running.

I bought my first ATSC tuner in Feb of 2007, and there was nothing talked about on those channels that viewers with OTA should begin buying only sets with ATSC. I know a half a dozen people that bought TVs (and I don't get out much) after 2006 that were not DTV ready, though the FCC had mandated to get your transmitter on the air by then.

But with wanting to start anything political or bash the media, it all fits into the veil of unsustainable political, economic and tabloid news we just lived through for the last 20 years. Recent events did wake people up for a short time but I fear most are back asleep again. Been said here before, but from our technological perch on DTV we get a deep glimpse how screwed up things really are across the board.

Larry Kenney

04-25-09, 09:11 PM

Hawaii Observations...

I just returned from a week on Oahu where we enjoyed the tropical breezes, watched the palm trees sway and ate too much. :) I had my laptop with the Fusion USB receiver with me. Thought this would be my first scan where I'd get just digital stations, but it didn't happen. There is still one analog left on the island. KHLU-LP, a Univision affiliate, is still transmitting analog on channel 46.

I was able to receive 10 of the 13 digital stations listed for Honolulu using my indoor whip antenna in my hotel room. The other three gave me signals in the 11 to 14 dB range, below the cliff edge.

Larry
SF

coyoteaz

04-25-09, 09:46 PM

Hope you got some TSReader data for Trip's site :).

Trip in VA

04-26-09, 03:18 AM

:D

If not, I know someone else who's going to be spending some time in Hawaii, in the not-too-distant future, so it wouldn't be so bad.

- Trip

Larry Kenney

04-26-09, 03:26 AM

Hope you got some TSReader data for Trip's site :).

Sorry, no I didn't get any TSReader files. Tell you the truth, I didn't even think of it. The next visitor Trip knows who's going will have to do it.

Larry
SF

coyoteaz

04-26-09, 05:08 AM

So when's your trip, Trip? Maybe you can find a summer job there :D.

Trip in VA

04-26-09, 11:41 AM

So when's your trip, Trip? Maybe you can find a summer job there :D.

My trip where? I know someone on the forum here who's going there and has said he would send me some information.

As for me, things are happening. I want to have everything in stone before I say something definitive. :D

- Trip

Trip in VA

04-29-09, 12:12 AM

WUNC-DT has filed for two fill-in translators. One is channel 30 from the central Garner tower site, and the other is channel 46 from the Oxford area.

I just ran plots, which I'll leave up for a few days. Note the files are huge, several MB.

http://www.rabbitears.info/screencaps/1-temp/W30IF-D.png
http://www.rabbitears.info/screencaps/1-temp/W46EK-D.png

Note that the channel 30 one is directional, but I didn't factor it into the plot. Coverage in some directions may be exaggerated.

- Trip

Trip in VA

04-30-09, 12:49 PM

KDCU's move to 31 was approved today.

- Trip

Trip in VA

05-01-09, 12:17 AM

Piggie

05-03-09, 02:04 PM

Well, add another one to the fill-in translator list. WVIA-DT in Scranton wants one on channel 44 in Waymart.

The filing is interesting. Apparently, there have been a set of translators operating in Waymart under STA for several years because of interference due to the turning of wind turbines in the area. Reading the engineering paperwork suggests that all the Scranton DMA stations might end up with fill-in translators in Waymart for this very reason.

- Trip

And I thought leaves in the wind were bad! When I first read this I thought my normal inverse pig logic there was an electrical interference. Then it dawned on me reading the PDF
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=754644&formid=911&q_num=5370
Apparently it is mulitpath???

[Humor: So if they install translators in WayMart, will it carry their in store ads? Will this be followed by WalMart and KMart installing translators in their stores as well?]

On a serious note, it is not a wonder there is some prevision for G4 or G5 networks to allow stores to broadcast to your handheld device for specials or how to get to certain items in the store.

ohiogal

05-03-09, 03:15 PM

i wonder what happen to think tv 16, suddenly lost the signal on it. and thats the only pbs station that i could get on my tv.

Trip in VA

05-03-09, 05:00 PM

i wonder what happen to think tv 16, suddenly lost the signal on it. and thats the only pbs station that i could get on my tv.

Did you rescan? They moved to channel 16.

- Trip

Falcon_77

05-04-09, 01:18 PM

I have been getting behind on the spreadsheet. This is due to many stations which are already operating post-transition facilities filing updated Form 387's. I am about half-way through the 4/17 filings which had over 500 for that day alone. There were quite a few in the days prior to that as well.

I uploaded a new version to RE, which includes the information I have gathered thus far, the shut-downs to date and other fixes, etc.

Station details:

* 1201: operating Post-Transition facilities
* 207: with maximized Construction Permits but otherwise ready (included above)
* 836: to end analog operations early (before 6/12/09)
* 811: have already ended (or will not commence) analog operations (included above)

Only 25 stations are due to end analog ops. between tomorrow and 6/11. I'm still surprised that a few more areas weren't made into full early test markets, vs. basically ensuring that at least 1 analog station remains in each. Most of the biggest markets have done very little to date as respects early analog ends.

Trip in VA

05-05-09, 12:16 AM

Add another fill-in translator; looks like WVPT is selling both analog facilities. WHSV-DT on channel 51 in Staunton.

- Trip

Trip in VA

05-06-09, 01:47 PM

I know there are a lot of folks here wondering what I will be doing over the summer, and my signature has recently changed implying I now have an employer. I figure now is as good a time as any to announce that I will be an engineering intern at WDBJ-7 in Roanoke for the summer.

As you probably know, VAB rejected me after I had applied for the internship through them. Apparently I have friends in high places who saw my posts here about it, and ultimately people at WDBJ got personally involved. After a week or so, I had an e-mail in my inbox informing me that I'd gotten the VAB internship.

At this point, I don't have a firm date for starting, but I plan to start in mid to late May, once I find a place to live. I'm really looking forward to it, and hope I learn a lot of useful things, meet some more great people, and have a lot of fun. :)

Now that my final exams are over, expect to see lots of work done to RabbitEars--that won't be stopping just because I'll be in Roanoke! I've hacked at the market rankings since I woke up this morning and I believe I now have submarkets fully implemented. Once I finish shuffling cities around, the markets will be done and it will be one less thing to worry about. Then it's on to the DX Tool (which needs a new name) and other projects that I want to do for the site. I'll be glad to entertain any suggestions that people have for new features or modifications to existing features; just send me an e-mail or send a message on AVS and I'll definitely take a look at it.

Thanks to everyone here for their support. I greatly appreciate it. Here's to many more years of discussion among us here at AVS! :)

- Trip

gjvrieze

05-06-09, 01:52 PM

ChrisC47

05-06-09, 02:35 PM

Apparently I have friends in high places who saw my posts here about it, and ultimately people at WDBJ got personally involved. After a week or so, I had an e-mail in my inbox informing me that I'd gotten the VAB internship.

OUTSTANDING! Congratulations.

I started to pursue helping you out myself, but ran into a dead end, and then got distracted by travel ... Glad it worked out anyway!

TalkingRat

05-06-09, 03:10 PM

Congratulations, Trip! Hope it's a blast.

gjvrieze

05-06-09, 04:30 PM

Trip,

No one has ever asked, that I am aware. What got you interested in broadcasting in the first place?

Trip in VA

05-06-09, 04:53 PM

Trip,

No one has ever asked, that I am aware. What got you interested in broadcasting in the first place?

First of all, thanks everyone! I can't wait to get there.

It's an interesting question and one I'm not 100% sure of. My first broadcasting related memory goes back to when I was 4 or so, living in New Jersey. I remember looking at the TV listings in the newspaper and seeing WLIW-21, which was not on our TVs. I remember going into the kitchen and going to 21 on the TV and not seeing anything and wondering why.

Then at age 6, my family moved down to Virginia. Living between three or four markets, I was thoroughly amused with the stations from all around, and how more of them would come in at night and in the mornings. I did a lot of DXing at that point, and still do a fair bit of DXing today, though not as religiously as I did back then.

Then I got the Internet at the end of 1998 and lived on Chip Kelley's USATV (later 100000watts) for a long time; right up until it went subscription. RabbitEars is actually me attempting to replace that site since it went subscription-only. I own a domain name in the event I ever decide to expand it to include AM and FM, but at this point, just the TV end of it takes up a lot of my time. I also don't have enough interest in AM and FM to want to dedicate the kind of time I spend with digital TV.

Finally, I got into digital TV when WJPR-DT launched in April 2002 with WB "WBVA-5" as its sole subchannel. At the time I was a fan of certain WB programming that I could otherwise only see if DX was bringing in WLFL from Raleigh, so after a few false starts I eventually managed to get a WinTV-D in March 2003. That meant I had it in time to see WBRA-DT sign on in May of that year and WSET-DT sign on in September of that year. I joined AVS in June; I don't remember if I came to AVS because my dad pointed me to it (he's a home theater person) or because wdbjbob told me about it, but here I am now. :)

Might be a bit long to read, but hopefully that explains it. Or at least, as much of it as I can explain! :D

- Trip

PA_MainyYak

05-06-09, 09:50 PM

Congrats Trip.
I know you'll make the most of the opportunity.

Scooper

05-06-09, 10:45 PM

Trip - congrats and make the most of your opportunity.

Dr Touchtone

05-07-09, 03:02 AM

First of all, thanks everyone! I can't wait to get there.

It's an interesting question and one I'm not 100% sure of. My first broadcasting related memory goes back to when I was 4 or so, living in New Jersey. I remember looking at the TV listings in the newspaper and seeing WLIW-21, which was not on our TVs. I remember going into the kitchen and going to 21 on the TV and not seeing anything and wondering why.

Then at age 6, my family moved down to Virginia. Living between three or four markets, I was thoroughly amused with the stations from all around, and how more of them would come in at night and in the mornings. I did a lot of DXing at that point, and still do a fair bit of DXing today, though not as religiously as I did back then.

Then I got the Internet at the end of 1998 and lived on Chip Kelley's USATV (later 100000watts) for a long time; right up until it went subscription. RabbitEars is actually me attempting to replace that site since it went subscription-only. I own a domain name in the event I ever decide to expand it to include AM and FM, but at this point, just the TV end of it takes up a lot of my time. I also don't have enough interest in AM and FM to want to dedicate the kind of time I spend with digital TV.

Finally, I got into digital TV when WJPR-DT launched in April 2002 with WB "WBVA-5" as its sole subchannel. At the time I was a fan of certain WB programming that I could otherwise only see if DX was bringing in WLFL from Raleigh, so after a few false starts I eventually managed to get a WinTV-D in March 2003. That meant I had it in time to see WBRA-DT sign on in May of that year and WSET-DT sign on in September of that year. I joined AVS in June; I don't remember if I came to AVS because my dad pointed me to it (he's a home theater person) or because wdbjbob told me about it, but here I am now. :)

Might be a bit long to read, but hopefully that explains it. Or at least, as much of it as I can explain! :D

- Trip

Congrats on the internship...At least TV pays better and is more of a real broadcast job NOW than radio has turned out to be.....As they say on KRUD.COM:

"The radio business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs.

There's also a negative side." :eek:

Hunter S. Thompson

--------------------------------
-.. . .-- -... ..... .. - - (Dr Touchtone ;)

Larry Kenney

05-07-09, 03:27 AM

All the best from someone who worked in the biz for 34 years and loved it. I hope you do too, although times have changed since those "good ol' days". Now there are fewer friendly people around, more irritating computers and many lonely hours by yourself holding down the fort. Learn a lot and enjoy your summer!

Larry
SF

Trip in VA

05-07-09, 03:28 AM

Irritating computers? You're talking to someone who's done plenty of computer tech work. I eat broken computers for breakfast!

... Admittedly, they're very hard to chew. :p

(I'm up way too late packing to go home, apologies.)

- Trip

Trip in VA

05-08-09, 12:52 PM

If anyone's trying to reach me via e-mail, or awaiting an e-mail from me, my e-mail is down. It's been down since I woke up.

In fact, everything at my web host is down except, ironically, my hosting. Rabbit Ears remains up even though I can't get to anything else (their home/order page, statistics, phpmyadmin, etc).

I have a response all typed out for you, Falcon_77, but can't send it.

- Trip

Trip in VA

05-08-09, 06:46 PM

gjvrieze

05-09-09, 10:44 AM

I missed it when it happened; two weeks ago, WDSE and KTCI filed joint requests. WDSE is apparently really desperate to reuse their UHF 38 gear, and has paid off KTCI to relocate to channel 23 instead of 38.

This is fun.

(Also, my e-mail is back up.)

- Trip

Interesting, I had kind of forgot about this whole "saga" with KTCI and WDSE....

foxeng

05-10-09, 12:01 PM

DTV Notes
FCC Provides Rules For DTV Fill-Ins
In total, 14 stations have submitted 20 applications for the translators, and eight requests for temporary translators
By John Eggerton -- Broadcasting & Cable, 5/8/2009 4:16:59 PM MT

The FCC Friday released its order establishing a new class of translators that will help stations fill in DTV coverage gaps in their current service areas.

"It is the Commission’s goal that, following the digital transition, all Americans continue to receive the television broadcast service that they are accustomed to receiving to the greatest extent feasible," the FCC said.

As expected, the commission will not allow the translators on channels 52-59, which are being cleared for advanced wireless services. Besides, the FCC said, none applied for translators in that spectrum.

In total, said the FCC, 14 stations have submitted 20 applications for the translators, and eight requests for temporary translators.

The FCC said it will separately issue a public notice on a first come, first serve licensing process for translators to deal with issues involving coverage problems that require "more distant translators."

As expected, the commission has also decided not to put a six-month deadline on construction of the facilities, but keep the usual three-year time period.

The FCC will not make broadcasters pay in the secondary spectrum market for the fill-in spectrum, as the wireless industry had suggested.

The FCC rejected a proposal by the National Association of Broadcasters that they have more flexibility to determine a signal loss area, saying that would be "unduly combersome to administer."

The FCC's decision comes only a little over a month before the June 12 switch to digital, but the commission has been allowing translator applications to be submitted under temporary authority.

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/231907-FCC_Provides_Rules_For_DTV_Fill_Ins.php

iowegian3

05-10-09, 09:33 PM

More translators or more transmitter power? There's got to be a calculus, of sorts, that determines the tipping point between either choice.

Let's use a couple of Barrington Broadcasting's smallest market stations: WLUC in Marquette MI analog ch 6 digital ch 35, and KTVO Kirksville MO analog 3, digital 33. Both were full power VHFs, but have elected "super-translator" status to date for the digital UHF operations: 63kW and 87kW respectively. (Sorry, I pick on these guys too much, but...)

Wonder where "George Costanza" has been hanging out (or not :rolleyes:) since his character was retired back in the 90s? The mgmt suite at Barrington? "George: Look, you don't understand. There was shrinkage." (Seinfeld episode #85, "The Hamptons")

Maybe, shrinkage is a good thing. These stations could deploy translators to fill in the gaps more effectively than a 1 meg U. In the case of WLUC (IIRC) terrain problems in Marquette mean major shadowing problems for the city of license.

But then there may be a point where increasing power &/or tower at the main transmitter might be more cost effective. Where that point is, is the question for those of you here who are more in the know than I am. A bigger transmitter is major bucks, but you can't get half a dozen translators at Wal-Mart.

Scooper

05-10-09, 09:39 PM

It's one of those things that depends on your local area. My area - no translators - all high power transmitters at essentially a single site (makes it easy for aiming an antenna). But then - there are no significant terrain features that mask much territory.

Doc Sief

05-10-09, 11:27 PM

I missed it when it happened; two weeks ago, WDSE and KTCI filed joint requests. WDSE is apparently really desperate to reuse their UHF 38 gear, and has paid off KTCI to relocate to channel 23 instead of 38.This is fun.
(Also, my e-mail is back up.)
- Trip

OK Trip, now I am confused!:confused:

KTCA ("2.1 &2.2") currently on and plans to stay on UHF Channel 34.

KTCI ("2.3 &2.4"), which was our old Channel 17, has been using Channel 16, and originally was planned to go to Channel 26 {not 23 ( which is vacated by WUCW no longer Analog Ch.23, but all DTV on Ch. 22)}.

Currently KMSP Channel 9 is digital on Ch 26 with plans to switch back to Ch.9 come June. And was planning to sell its transmitter to KTCI.

The problem is that to match the broadcast area of KTCA, the power of Ch. 26 for KTCI would 'infringe with Canada'; but they found that Ch. 38 would have worked perfectly.

Sooooo....are you saying that KTCI is going to stay with Channel 26 afterall:confused::eek:

Trip in VA

05-11-09, 12:29 AM

No.

KTCI-DT is currently 16. They had asked for 26, but 26 is unusable due to WHWC-DT 27.

They asked the FCC to let them move to 38. WDSE-DT opposed the move because they want to recycle their existing channel 38 gear.

The joint request now wants to put KTCI-DT on channel 23. WDSE-DT has paid them almost $30,000 to make it happen.

- Trip

Trip in VA

05-11-09, 01:07 AM

dline

05-11-09, 03:06 AM

I had posted this in the New Orleans thread but I guess I should post it here as well. Check this out:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1310665&Service=DS&Form_id=911&Facility_id=4149

First of many? I imagine some can only hope so.

- TripTo summarize: WVUE in New Orleans wants to change its mind. It was doing DT on its former analog channel 8, but found that "a significant number of viewers throughout WVUE’s predicted service area have reported (and are continuing to report) the complete loss of digital service from WVUE" since then. They want to go back to channel 29 at 660 kW.

Part of the problem there is that they were allotted just 14.6 kW on channel 8, and they know it's unlikely they'll be approved for much more than that because of a channel 9 in Baton Rouge.

None of the high-V stations where I live were content with that kind of power. Most petitioned for double and got it.

TiVoFishMan

05-11-09, 09:17 AM

To summarize: WVUE in New Orleans wants to change its mind. It was doing DT on its former analog channel 8, but found that "a significant number of viewers throughout WVUE’s predicted service area have reported (and are continuing to report) the complete loss of digital service from WVUE" since then. They want to go back to channel 29 at 660 kW.

Part of the problem there is that they were allotted just 14.6 kW on channel 8, and they know it's unlikely they'll be approved for much more than that because of a channel 9 in Baton Rouge.

None of the high-V stations where I live were content with that kind of power. Most petitioned for double and got it.

WVUE's former owner, Emmis, made the decision to do post-transition digital on 8.

From what I hear, lots of local broadcast engineers (maybe even engineering staff at WVUE, privately) had a "HUH??!! WTF?!" reaction to that decision, especially considering that they'd almost surely never be allowed to run at more than 14.6 kW.

It seems the new management is blessed with the ability to blame the bad decision on former management, and try to correct the bad decision.

Based on the filing, as well as what I've heard, it's mostly apartment dwelling rabbit-ear users, relatively close to the tower, that are having a problem (and did not have a problem using something like a "Silver Sensor" with UHF 29). Folks far out enough to need a large outdoor antenna no matter what (like me) are finding the "predicted contour" to be (apparently) accurate, but it falls short of accurately predicting what happens with rabbit ears indoors, close in.

Actually, for me, 8 performs a little better than 29 since I'm surrounded by very tall pine trees. When those trees wave in the wind, it creates ever shifting multipath on 29, that ATSC tuners have trouble with. 8 remains relatively stable in the wind.

Falcon_77

05-11-09, 11:06 AM

Based on the filing, as well as what I've heard, it's mostly apartment dwelling rabbit-ear users, relatively close to the tower, that are having a problem (and did not have a problem using something like a "Silver Sensor" with UHF 29). Folks far out enough to need a large outdoor antenna no matter what (like me) are finding the "predicted contour" to be (apparently) accurate, but it falls short of accurately predicting what happens with rabbit ears indoors, close in.

Since about 75% of all OTA viewers use rabbit ears, perhaps we will see more of these requests in a few months. Many of the major markets are largely UHF now and will have lower powered stations than these on upper VHF, post-transition. NYC is the best example, but LA, Philadelphia and Chicago are at risk, among many others.

Is WBAL paying attention? 5kW on 11 in an urban area? Good luck with that.

Upper VHF is going to be too crowded to effectively maximize the stations I'm afraid. Where are 52-59 when we need them most?

There will be between 57 and 77 stations on each upper VHF channel. The UHF range is 22 to 48. With the longer range of VHF, it further complicates the band.

The irony seems to be that more power is needed up close vs. distance for VHF, but trying to use rabbit ears has a lot to do with it. However, as I have mentioned too often, what's an indoor bound antenna viewer to do? Hang a 5' boom antenna from the ceiling?

The "hidden" transition may be more problematic than the "real" one.

foxeng

05-11-09, 11:14 AM

DTV Notes
Survey: Viewers Report Better Picture Across All Channels After Getting Converter Box
According to NAB, 47% of respondents have seen "major improvement" in reception
By John Eggerton -- Broadcasting & Cable, 5/11/2009 8:39:29 AM MT

Three quarters of over-the-air analog viewers polled said they received a better picture across all their channels after getting a digital converter box.

That is according to a study conducted by SmithGeiger and commissioned by the National Association of Broadcasters. NAB declined to make the survey available and had not returned an e-mail and phone call at press time to explain why.

According to NAB, the study found that 47% of respondents said they had seen a "major improvement" in TV reception. In addition, 54% said they were receiving more channels while only 8% said they were receiving fewer.

The study was a phone poll of 1,080 households (1080 is the number of lines of resolution in one format of high-definition television) between March 26 and April 8.

All viewers without cable or satellite or a digital TV set will need a converter box to watch full-power TV after the June 12 hard date.

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/231974-Survey_Viewers_Report_Better_Picture_Across_All_Channels_Aft er_Getting_Converter_Box.php

jspENC

05-11-09, 11:32 AM

DTV Notes
Survey: Viewers Report Better Picture Across All Channels After Getting Converter Box
According to NAB, 47% of respondents have seen "major improvement" in reception
By John Eggerton -- Broadcasting & Cable, 5/11/2009 8:39:29 AM MT

According to NAB, the study found that 47% of respondents said they had seen a "major improvement" in TV reception. In addition, 54% said they were receiving more channels while only 8% said they were receiving fewer.

The study was a phone poll of 1,080 households (1080 is the number of lines of resolution in one format of high-definition television) between March 26 and April 8.

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/231974-Survey_Viewers_Report_Better_Picture_Across_All_Channels_Aft er_Getting_Converter_Box.php

That is a good sign, and it should go even higher after June 12.

Falcon_77

05-11-09, 11:42 AM

The Hidden Transition

Attached is a list of stations that are currently on UHF for DTV, but will move to VHF. Of course, there are other factors to consider, such as HAAT, etc., but some of these stations may find their new signal doesn't quite match what they once had.

Now, the FCC doesn't require these stations to warn viewers of these impending band changes? That rule only applies for analog to DTV band changes, right? ...vs. DTV to DTV band changes.

The delay will probably have made this problem worse as more viewers have had time to get accustomed to the existing signals.

TiVoFishMan

05-11-09, 12:03 PM

Since about 75% of all OTA viewers use rabbit ears, perhaps we will see more of these requests in a few months. Many of the major markets are largely UHF now and will have lower powered stations than these on upper VHF, post-transition. NYC is the best example, but LA, Philadelphia and Chicago are at risk, among many others.

[snip]

The "hidden" transition may be more problematic than the "real" one.

In contemplating WVUE's request something occurred to me:

I'll bet that WVUE found that a lot of their viewers that "lost" them after the switch, are using a UHF only indoor antenna (probably a "sliver sensor") without rabbit ears.

Many of these viewers probably have the attitude, "I can get 10 out of 11 of my digital locals with this silver sensor. That's good enough, I just won't watch WVUE. Rabbit ears are too ugly."

Ouch! Of course, that argument wouldn't pass muster with the FCC, but I'll bet it's an unspoken factor.

While we have one other VHF-Hi digital channel, WYES-PBS; at 104 kW their signal punches in on almost any radiating surface. In almost any situation where a silver sensor will get you all the UHF local channels, it will pull in WYES as well, despite the frequency being far from the radiating frequency of the antenna, due to it's crazy-high power. The same antenna would fall far short of pulling in 14.6 kW WVUE, however. And, we've got another full power PBS affiliate on UHF.

Yep, when the "unseen" transition happens, I'll bet we'll see lots and lots more of these, from all over the country!

Inundated

05-11-09, 01:59 PM

Falcon, unless I missed it, your list is missing one around here - WJW-DT (Fox, Cleveland), which moves from 31 to 8 at the transition.

Falcon_77

05-11-09, 02:40 PM

Falcon, unless I missed it, your list is missing one around here - WJW-DT (Fox, Cleveland), which moves from 31 to 8 at the transition.

They have a CP for 30kW, which is why it wasn't included.

Perhaps I should show all of them, regardless of power, etc., as the 30kW CP for WJW is directional vs. the non-directional 11kW facility that I was previously showing for them. Also, it appears that they will be operating from a aux antenna until they swap out the main antenna.

Falcon_77

05-11-09, 02:42 PM

Trip advised that his Internet connection has been up and down and is having problems posting to the forum.

Calaveras

05-11-09, 03:20 PM

The Hidden Transition

Attached is a list of stations in top 100 areas that are currently on UHF for DTV, but will move to VHF.

I don't know if you care about these sorts of details but you might want to add KXTV Sacramento to your list. KXTV is currently on UHF for DTV and has a CP for channel 10. They recently (Feb. 2009) were granted an increase from 22KW to 43KW. In their April 2009 387 form filing they say that on June 12 they will be operating according to their original CP; i.e. 22KW and that sometime in the 3 year period for the new CP they will increase power. Who knows when they'll be operating at their higher power. Hopefully it won't be 3 years. ;)

BTW, I looked at all the recent 387 filings from the stations in Sacramento, SF, and Salinas. There are a large number of stations that won't be operating their final post transition facilities on June 13th. They're using temporary lower antennas and/or running half power. Analog may shut off on June 12th but the transition won't really be complete for another 4-6 months up here in Northern California.