The official final DTV Table Of Allotments/channel change thread [Text View] - Page 4

TiVoFishMan

04-04-08, 01:21 PM

As many of the people participating in this thread know, the road to digital television in New Orleans has been made particularly interesting by the fact that several of the TV stations suffered devastating damage from Katrina, forcing them to start over on their DTV buildouts.

The most severely hit stations in New Orleans were the Tribune-owned duopoly of WGNO (ABC) and WNOL (CW) who lost absolutely everything: transmitters, tower, studios, control center, business office.

Since they had to build from scratch, these stations petitioned the FCC, and obtained approval, to simply build their post transition facilities, with WNOL on channel 15, and WGNO on 26.

Problem: 26 is WGNO's analog channel and digital post-transition channel, so now they must flash-cut. After Katrina, they (purposely) forfeited their pre-transition license by remaining silent, with FCC pre-notification.

So, they've been putting WGNO's programming and WNOL's programming on one transmitter, WNOL-DT at channel 15.

To date, WGNO's programming has been carried in 720p and WNOL's in 480i on that same transmitter.

In another thread someone just posted an email, ostensibly from WGNO/WNOL's chief engineer that claims that within days WGNO will be in 720p and WNOL will be in 1080i as subchannels on the same physical transmitter!

I skimmed Trip's sub-channels list and did not see another example of two subchannels in HD on the same transmitter. But, it's a big list. I might have missed something. ;)

Does anyone know of another example of this being done?

Won't the picture quality, well, suck?

Trip in VA

04-04-08, 02:01 PM

I skimmed Trip's sub-channels list and did not see another example of two subchannels in HD on the same transmitter. But, it's a big list. I might have missed something. ;)

Does anyone know of another example of this being done?

Won't the picture quality, well, suck?

KALB.
KXII.
WKYT.

Yes it will.

- Trip

TiVoFishMan

04-04-08, 02:28 PM

KALB.
KXII.
WKYT.

Yes it will.

- Trip

Thanks for the info.

I'll post back what the PQ looks like, to my eyes anyway, when the 1080i kicks in on WNOL (Still 480i as of yesterday evening, last time I checked. WGNO-DT via. WNOL-DT looked just great in 720p for Miss Guided and Eli Stone last night.)

When they first came up on WPXL's transmitter in Feb. 2006, "word on the street" was that Tribune bought WPXL (ION) an absolutely cutting edge stat-mux as a gift (for them to keep) to "sweeten the deal" and soften the blow of depriving them of putting Qubo and ION Life up for all those months.

I can only guess that they bought a similar stat-mux for themselves to help them pull off this trick.

Of course, there's only so much "magic" you can pull off with even the best stat-mux.

rrrrrroger

04-09-08, 01:09 PM

WPVI ABC 6 in Philadelphia has to be one of the VHF 6 digital stations that FCC would want to move. It is right smack in the middle of the crowded mid-Atlantic region. From FCC documents I have scanned, the technical staff have stated that they prefer to move all full power stations off of VHF 6 and one would think they would most want to do this for the eastern stations.

Why is there a technical problem with VHF 6 in Philly remaining where its at?

rrrrrroger

04-09-08, 01:46 PM

I'd imagine channel 6 would like a UHF, but there's just nothing available that provides full-market coverage.

The only thing that came into my mind would be to try and move something like WGCB and go on channel 30, but would they want to pay for two stations like that? And where would WGCB move to?

Looking at your list, the TV channels 7-51 look extremely full, and it makes me wonder if selling the upper UHF band was a mistake. There's no room for growth!

Falcon_77

04-09-08, 03:34 PM

Why is there a technical problem with VHF 6 in Philly remaining where its at?

WPVI has to vacate their DTV channel on 64, so they can't stay where they were at. They elected to return to 6, but I'm not sure if they had any other choice.

VHF-Low band reception is problematic, especially in urban areas, but it remains to be seen just how bad channel 6 will be as there aren't any full power stations there now as best as I can tell.

Yes, another 5 UHF channels would be great to have post-transition, but as for expansion...? It seems the ultimate goal is to force all TV stations off the air, but that is only my opinion.

spokybob

04-09-08, 03:57 PM

It seems the ultimate goal is to force all TV stations off the air, but that is only my opinion.
My O My! That's the first time I've heard that thrown out.

Trip in VA

04-09-08, 04:34 PM

And where would WGCB move to?

51.

That was just an example though (and not a great one). My main plans were to either:

Move WWSI from 49 to 10.
Move WPVI to channel 50.

Or:

Move WTVE from 25 to 50.
Move WPVI to channel 25.

Either works.

- Trip

Desert Hawk

04-09-08, 07:49 PM

Isn't WPVI Philadelphia an ABC owned and operated? I think ABC Disney chose across the board to move all their owned and operated stations to their current analog channels (correct me if I am wrong). In most cases this means moving from a UHF to a VHF high. In Fresno California (yes, KFSN Fresno is owned and operated) the opposite is happening; they are giving up channel 9 for channel 30.

holl_ands

04-09-08, 08:10 PM

Why is there a technical problem with VHF 6 in Philly remaining where its at?
The RF bandwidth for most TV/DTV tuners is 3-5 channels wide (18-30 MHz).
Hence, most of the FM band (88-108 MHz) is being received along with VHF CH6.
Nearby FM stations can desensitize your tuner and also generate intermods.

So overall, CH6 won't perform as well as other choices....
CH5 is also affected, but it's one more channel (6MHz) away from FM band....
Which is why good VHF Preamps include an FM Trap....

Recall that analog TV assignments were intentionally assigned on alternating
channels to avoid strong stations preventing reception of weaker stations.
Unfortunately, with DTV station duplication, this "rule" can no longer be followed.

Falcon_77

04-10-08, 01:40 AM

rrrrrroger

04-10-08, 06:29 AM

The RF bandwidth for most TV/DTV tuners is 3-5 channels wide (18-30 MHz). Hence, most of the FM band (88-108 MHz) is being received along with VHF CH6. I thought the FCC said digital stations could exist side-by-side with other digital or analog station, and not interfere with one another, due to the "advanced technology" of the 8-VSB standard?
Why is there a technical problem with VHF 6 in Philly remaining where its at?WPVI has to vacate their DTV channel on 64, so they can't stay where they were at. They elected to return to 6, but I'm not sure if they had any other choice. That's what I meant when I said "Remaining where they are (on 6)." You see, I have a very different perspective from you guys (as do most viewers):

- I'm still watching analog, so for me channel 6 IS channel 6. It has not moved, and will not be moving even when I switch to digital on Feb 18, 2009. It will stay on 6. VHF-Low band reception is problematic, especially in urban areas... Yes but that doesn't answer my question of WHY it's problematic: "Why is there a technical problem?" It seems the ultimate goal is to force all TV stations off the air, but that is only my opinion. You're serious?

Why would you say that?

If that had been the FCC's goal, they could have just stayed with analog.

foxeng

04-10-08, 07:52 AM

- I'm still watching analog, so for me channel 6 IS channel 6. It has not moved, and will not be moving even when I switch to digital on Feb 18, 2009. It will stay on 6. Yes but that doesn't answer my question of WHY it's problematic: "Why is there a technical problem?"

The issue is that VHF low (channels 2-6, 54 -88 MHz) is prone to natural and man made interference that tears up digital. When you watch a VHF low station and see noise in the picture, that noise kills digital so the vast majority of stations did not want to remain in that spectrum.

Disney did everything they could to get WPVI off of channel 6 digital. But because of the density of the stations along the mid-Atlantic and Northeastern states, they were unable. They had a heck of a fight to keep WABC on channel 7 in New York and almost didn't get it and no where to put it. It was a last minute decision and pretty much agreeing to what ever condition the FCC put on them to get it.

Just because a station was on a channel in analog didn't mean it would fit in the digital world, even though that is not what the FCC told stations when all of this started 10 years ago. As time went on, the FCC continued to tighten interference restrictions to the point that for most stations, the power levels they would have to run on their analog channels would not cover their markets so they had to stay on their digital channels and those UHF stations who got lucky to get a VHF high digital assignment, now have first right of refusal over the older analog stations on the same channel because of the tighter restrictions on interference. The "first in rule." In this case, the first in rule applies to digital stations and older analog stations converting to digital on the same channel now have to show interference protection to the newer digital stations cutting many older stations coverage considerably.

Trip in VA

04-10-08, 09:11 AM

As I understand it, this only applies if their analog channel was 7.

Nope, every ABC O&O is returning to the analog channel from whence they came.

As to Roger, digitals and analogs can co-exist side-by-side up to a point. There are certain restrictions as to where a side-by-side station can be located; for digitals this is within a 20 mile radius, and then not again til 80 miles out (they've waived this rule a LOT though to try and fit everyone in, but it's still in the FCC rules).

FM regularly trashes channel 6 in my experience. On my FM radio, I can hear the audio from WTVR in Richmond at my house on 87.7, but on my TV, I only hear the local religious station on 88.3 on channel 6. If I spin the antenna around to aim right at it, I can see and hear WTVR, but it still has FM interference riding on top of it.

And ABC didn't do everything they could to get off of channel 6, they did everything they could that didn't require moving any other station around. I still maintain they could have gotten another channel if they really wanted it, it just wouldn't be cheap.

- Trip

Falcon_77

04-10-08, 10:48 AM

Nope, every ABC O&O is returning to the analog channel from whence they came.

Thanks. It appears that there are only 10 ABC O&O stations, and I confirmed that they are all going back to their analog channel. However, WPVI is the only one with an analog channel on Low-VHF.

Nitewatchman

04-10-08, 08:46 PM

Sorry I'm going OT here, but ....

FM regularly trashes channel 6 in my experience. On my FM radio, I can hear the audio from WTVR in Richmond at my house on 87.7, but on my TV, I only hear the local religious station on 88.3 on channel 6. If I spin the antenna around to aim right at it, I can see and hear WTVR, but it still has FM interference riding on top of it.

I have similar situation here. More below on what I've done to improve it.

Note/update: Of course, I don't think FCC usually(as least they didn't used to) allow hi-power Low-FM stations in areas near Ch 6 TV allocations (at least for analog) ....

Also, most broadband traps for FM broadcast band (including those in amps), I've had experience with seem to roll-off such that they seem to have little or no effect between about 88~90MHZ or so.

Since I have several blow-torch FM's in various directions, including between 88~89MHZ and, since I like to occasionally watch local news from a couple of weak analog 6's 80~100 miles distant, and also because I like to DX, including on 6 ... I've found something that works pretty well in my situation for that ... Hopefully this very rough diagram is "readable enough" :

----------------------------------------

Winegard PR5030 VHF ANT--->>Winegard CA8800 FM/TV band seperator(note: think it can be used as a FM/TV band combiner as well, but I don't recall for sure)

--->>>FM Out ----->> FM Receiver
CA8800<
--->>>TV out ----->> Winegard TRT-LO notch filter (tunable from 54~108 MHZ, ~12db notch, effects 2MHZ bandwidth at 1/2 power points) tuned for maximum effect at 88.7MHZ --- >> amp with broadband FM trap switched in ---- >> VHF/UHF combining with CM0549 --- > splitters/TV sets/DTV receivers/etc ...

--------
Note: A 2 way splitter could be used in place of the CA8800 as well, I've used both but the loss with the CA8800 is a bit lower than a 2 way splitter ....

Note: #2 - I've done some tests, and note that as it turns out It seems I don't really "need" to switch the FM trap on the amp in with this configuration, but it doesn't noticably "hurt" anything either to have it switched in, so why not ...)

With this setup -- I Watch "clean" weak analog channel 6 stations on TV, even when antenna is aimed right at a blow-torch 88.1MHZ FM and a channel 6 station in nearly same direction, and I listen to the 87.75MHZ (channel 6 audio) on FM receiver.

The TRT-LO does still effect the "top end" of channel 6/(including the audio carrier) slightly, don't know how that's going to work for any DTV channel 6 reception concerning whether or not it would be "better or worse" with the TRT-LO in line .....

Tuning the TRT-LO higher than 88.7 MHZ, and I start to get some degree of appreciable "noise" from the 88.1 MHZ FM(with antenna aimed in their direction) showing up/effecting TV channel 6 video, especially weak signal on 6 .... tune it any lower, and it starts to effect channel 6 video ....

But for analog 6 reception for time being, since I just listen to the analog 6 audio on the FM receiver(87.75MHZ) anyway, it doesn't matter .... It's better than what I get w/o the TRT-LO in line (whether or not an amp is used, BTW,) which is similar to what Trip described in his situation -- I.e. -- Something along the lines of watching channel 6 signal full of interference*, or better than listening to the low-FM stations(sometimes 2 or 3 at the same time) on the TV ....

* - If it is even strong enough to breaks through the mess when antenna is aimed "near" the nearby lo-FM stations, as probably is mostly created by the poor selectivity of the TV's tuner+the strong Lo-FM stations- for instance w/o the trap, I can't even "see" fairly weak signals on 6 I can see with the TRT-LO in line,

Note that Winegard doesn't make the TRT-LO or TRT-HI (tunable 174~216MHZ, about the same specs as TRT-LO's) anymore, think they were pretty inexpensive back when they did make them, I got mine for free from someone who gave a bunch of stuff away .... I'm Sure there are other such options, but then again, probably not much reason for most folks to "buy any stuff like that" if it's only going to help reception of full service analog ch 6 stations for a little more than 11 months ....

I also have a few other VHF traps in line before amp knocking down very strong local analogs on 2+7 (mostly for Dx'ing reasons, use a seperate antenna setup to receive those locally), and I can't wait to yank those out on 2/18/09 .... Not sure whether or not I'm going to take out the TRT-LO tuned for 88.7MHZ though, it certianly seems to work very well in my situation for analog 6 reception .....

Unless a LP in my area which has filed APP for a ch 6 DTV (from a transmit location only a few miles from a hi-power FM station on 88.5MHZ, LOL) .... Ever goes through (I doubt it will for various reasons, not limited to the ch 6 allocation but who knows) ----- DTV DX signals are probably going to be the only thing I'll have to test it with to see .... Post transistion, KBSD, KPTW, KTVM and WRGB should be especially good DTV E-skip targets on 6 for me ... I've logged both KBSD (several times) and WRGB (once) analogs since 2002 ....

holl_ands

04-10-08, 09:48 PM

I thought the FCC said digital stations could exist side-by-side with other digital or analog station, and not interfere with one another, due to the "advanced technology" of the 8-VSB standard?

- I'm still watching analog, so for me channel 6 IS channel 6. It has not moved, and will not be moving even when I switch to digital on Feb 18, 2009. It will stay on 6. Yes but that doesn't answer my question of WHY it's problematic: "Why is there a technical problem?"
Many stations were able to add their digital channel ADJACENT to their
existing analog channel, using a single, duplexed antenna that is less
expensive and no additional weight on the tower (but not in your area).

Although both strong signals fall within the RF bandwidth, they can still meet
the adjacent channel performance guidelines found in ATSC A/74 "Guidelines":
http://www.atsc.org/guide_default.html
[However, if DTV is running way low on power there could be problems....]

Obviously the above is a special case....and not applicable to you now.

With so many stations packed into the available spectrum, the much more
common problem is trying to receive a weak signal when a strong station is
either within two (and a few more!!!) channel positions or multiple strong
signals result in intermod distortion products on the desired channel(s).

Actual performance tests showed that HD-STBs and HDTVs from 2005 didn't
quite meet A/74. And most were far more sensitive to interference from
strong stations many channels away than allowed by A/74. [One was pathetic.]

New CECB coupon eligible converter boxes are REQUIRED to meet A/74
requirements, although recent tests by Microtune uncovered deficiencies in
one manufacturer's boxes:
http://www.fcc.gov/oet/info/documents/reports/DTV_Interference_Rejection_Thresholds-03-30-07.pdf
http://www.fcc.gov/oet/info/documents/reports/TR-05-1017-ATSC-reception-testing.pdf
http://www.ntia.doc.gov/dtvcoupon/DTVmanufacturers.pdf
http://www.microtune.com/news/2008Articles/MTLetter.pdf

=============================
Info. re Low-VHF performance was summarized here:
http://www.mstv.org/docs/techinfo.pdf

Which is deja vu to the answers I gave you in the Converter Box thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13312315&highlight=KYES#post13312315

Nitewatchman

04-10-08, 10:10 PM

Couple of questions ---

Can't seem to find a CP APP yet for WBDT, Dayton,OH (ACME owned) -- Other stations in my area which are moving to their current analog assignment have already filed, and have had their CP's for post-transition granted.

They are moving to their channel 26 analog assignment post-transition.

In their form 387(at link below) :

Section III

#4 they check the box next to "(iii) Licensee/Permitee has constructed a reduced post-transition facility and additional construction is needed to complete Licensee's/Permittee's fully authorized facility."

#5. They check "yes" for "Does the Licensee/Permitee hold a license or Construction permit for its final, DTV(post-transition) facility"

But, Only thing I can find for them involves their currently licensed facility on ch 18, which is what they are currently operating ....

Question #1 is, Is/can that be considered it's "final DTV (post transition) facility" even though it's on 18 not 26, and various other changes need to be made regarding the facility for post transition ?

If the answer to that is yes, then it makes sense that For #6(a), they check "a" (needs to modify ther license or CP in order to match the post-transition facilities defined in new DTV table of allotments)

But, then in 6(b), they indicate (at time of filing of the form 387) they expect to file for the CP or CP MOD needed by "3/15/2008" -- But I haven't seen any such filing showing up from them ... Either a form 301 or any other filing for CP MOD or amendment/etc. involving their current licensed facilities ....

Question #2: Perhaps I'm missing something/not looking in the right places ? Or, Maybe It will pop up soon ....

WBDT's form 387 here (requires PDF reader) :

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1235889&Service=TV&Form_id=387&Facility_id=70138

-----------------------

I Wonder how many stations which need to(especially those moving to current analog channel assignment post transition ) have yet to file for CP's/CP MOD's/etc for their post transition facilities ? Seems to me they might want to get that done fairly soon ....

Trip in VA

04-11-08, 12:48 AM

Filings are still rolling in--all the Media-General stations came in this morning. I'm not sure why the filings are so late, but they are.

They may be holding out to try to maximize in August, but I don't see why they wouldn't just try to amend an existing CP instead. I can see a number of stations that seem like they'll be doing this (WNCN, KCET, to name two filed yesterday).

Looks like WBDT just made a mistake in their DTR filing.

- Trip

Larry Kenney

04-11-08, 03:34 AM

There are a couple of stations in San Francisco operating from Sutro Tower that have not sent in a CP application for the post transition channel. I haven't seen anything for KRON-4 for 38 or KGO-7 for 7. Both included information in the form 387 about the new channels, but have not submitted a 301 yet.

Larry
SF

TiVoFishMan

04-11-08, 08:01 AM

Note/update: Of course, I don't think FCC usually(as least they didn't used to) allow hi-power Low-FM stations in areas near Ch 6 TV allocations (at least for analog) ....

Just a point of note:

In New Orleans:

WDSU-NBC Channel 6 (analog) 100kW.
WRBH (FM Radio Station) 88.3 51 kW.

Both of these stations have been on the air for decades (WDSU was something like the third or fourth licensed TV station in the United States).

When I moved to New Orleans and noticed these stations, it really shocked me because when I was in College, I was a DJ and engineer for WRCT in Pittsburgh (Carnegie Mellon's Radio Station). WRCT was and is at 88.3.

The year was 1982. We had applied for a power increase from 10 watts to 100 watts (big stuff, eh?) and the FCC made us go through hell and back proving that going from 10 to 100 watts would not interfere with a channel 6 some ~100 miles away!! :rolleyes:

We basically ended up proving that the channel 6 they were worried about was utterly unreceivable anywhere WRCT was receivable, and the FCC granted the increase.

BTW: WRCT is now 1700 watts, but their antenna is directional so as to aim their signal away from that channel 6!

Nitewatchman

04-11-08, 04:09 PM

Looks like WBDT just made a mistake in their DTR filing.

Yeah, I was "assuming" that, but didn't want to jump to any conclusions ....

Anyway, thanks for the info Trip+Larry on some of the others which haven't filed CP's yet ...

Good to know WBDT isn't the only one ...

------------------------------------------------

Just a point of note:

In New Orleans:

WDSU-NBC Channel 6 (analog) 100kW.
WRBH (FM Radio Station) 88.3 51 kW.

Looks like WRBH-FM and WBSN-FM are co-located with WDSU-TV/transmit from WDSU's stick. Perhaps that's why FCC allowed it in their case. Found some info on that in following article :

http://www.fybush.com/sites/2005/site-050902.html

.... The year was 1982.

I didn't check it for accuracy, but interestingly(if that's a word, LOL) enough, this website reports WRBH-FM 88.3 first signed on Sept. 12, 1982 (just search the page's text for WRBH to find that little tidbit) :

http://tenwatts.blogspot.com/2005_06_01_archive.html

Falcon_77

04-12-08, 01:10 AM

I thought this article was interesting in light of the ERP levels for upper VHF that we have discussed.

http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0001/t.12659.html

To quote:

Only six high-VHF stations have been allotted 100 kW or more. In addition to the stations in California and Florida mentioned earlier, Nevada, Oklahoma, Oregon and Texas have one station with 100 kW or higher power station. Only 98 stations have been allotted powers above 25 kW, while 145 have power less than 12.5 kW. Most allotments are at power levels between 12.5 kW and 25 kW.

I have noticed that quite a few stations are being granted CP's for non-directional antennas at lower ERP's. Hopefully, this is a prelude to ERP increases later. The WTOC example is almost comical, with them having to stay within 5 miles of an Appendix B boundary that is over the ocean. See page 7 of their exhibit.

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=632779

TiVoFishMan

04-12-08, 07:50 PM

Looks like WRBH-FM and WBSN-FM are co-located with WDSU-TV/transmit from WDSU's stick. Perhaps that's why FCC allowed it in their case. Found some info on that in following article :

http://www.fybush.com/sites/2005/site-050902.html

[/url]

Old data, partially.

After Katrina destroyed the WDSU transmitter building, WBSN moved to the Spectra-Site tower in Algeirs (where almost all the New Orleans licensed commercial FM stations transmit from).

FCC Record for WBSN:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/fmq?state=&call=wbsn&city=&arn=&serv=&vac=&freq=0.0&fre2=107.9&facid=&class=&dkt=&list=0&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&NS=N&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&EW=W&size=9

They're currently running at 11 kW on the construction permit listed at the bottom of that page.

This is the area map of the Spectra-Site tower (from clicking on the link for the construction permit):

http://tiger.census.gov/cgi-bin/mapgen/gif?lon=-90.024722&lat=29.919722&iwd=750&iht=750&mark=-90.024722,29.919722,bluestar,WBSN-FM_NEWORLEANS_LA&on=water,miscell,counties,places,CITIES,&off=streets,GRID,shorelin&ht=0.5&wid=0.5

And the post-Katrina service contour of WBSN:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=FM1134742.html

WRBH on the other hand did, indeed, share WDSU's temporary Go-Mini trailer and are still colocated with them on their tower.

Nitewatchman

04-13-08, 06:14 PM

They're currently running at 11 kW on the construction permit listed at the bottom of that page.

I'll take your word for it, however I don't actually see a license to cover app from them for that facility yet.

The current record I can find publicily available on FCC site seems to indicate they are operating with a 5KW ERP STA, FCC file # BSTA - 20051012AAP, which is the first "application" entry at the FM query link you provided -- Note that both the first "application"(STA really) and "CP" entry for them at FCC's FM query show the signal as being entirely vertically polarized, no Horizontal Polarization ...

At Following link is most recent STA extension application request from WBSN-FM, which was granted by FCC on 3/28/2008, but note that it was filed by WBSN on 9/27/07, and of course as you indicate is the case, they very well may be covering the 11KW ERP CP (Vertical Polarization only) by now :

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101207080&formid=911&fac_num=53677

Note that in section I, #3, "purpose", it says it is for :

Extension of Existing Engineering STA File Number: BSTA - 20051012AAP

Also an exhibit, the text of which is included in the form itself, near bottom of form at link above it says : (especially note the info in 2nd paragraph, and of most interest, the portion I have bolded) :

Description: REASONS FOR EXTENSION

THE FACILITIES OF WBSN-FM WERE SEVERLY DAMAGED BY HURRICANE KATRINA ON AUGUST 29, 2005. AT THAT TIME THE STATION CEASED OPERATIONS. THIS STA WAS GRANTED ON OCTOBER 27, 2005 FOR TEMPORARY OPERATION FROM A DIFFERENT TOWER AND AT DIFFERENT PARAMETERS FROM ITS LICENSE. HOWEVER, DUE TO EQUIPMENT AND TOWER CREW ISSUES, WBSN-FM DID NOT RESUME OPERATIONS UNTIL JANUARY 30, 2006.

IN ORDER TO PREVENT INTERFERENCE, WBSN-FM'S TRANSMITTER AND ANTENNA WERE PREVIOUSLY LOCATED AT THE SAME LOCATION AS THE LOCAL CHANNEL 6 TELEVISION STATION. STATION MANAGEMENT HAS BEEN IN REGULAR CONTACT WITH THE CHANNEL 6 ENGINEERING PERSONNEL REGARDING THE RESTORATION OF THE TRANSMITTER BUILDINGS AND UTILITIES. AFTER MUCH DISCUSSION, AND WITH THE EXTINGUISHMENT OF THE CHANNEL 6 INTERFERENCE ISSUE IN FEBRUARY 2009, IT HAS BEEN DETERMINED THAT IT MAKES MORE SENSE FOR WBSN TO REMAIN PERMANENTLY AT ITS CURRENT LOCATION WITH UPGRADED FACILITIES. TO THIS END, WBSN-FM FILED AN APPLICATION FOR A MINOR MODIFICATION, FILE NO. BPED-20070906AEJ.

THEREFORE, WE REQUEST AN EXTENSION OF THIS STA FOR 180 DAYS. TO ASSURE THAT ANOTHER STA WILL NOT BE NECESSARY BEFORE APPROVAL IS GRANTED FOR THE MINOR MODIFICATION AND WBSN IS ABLE TO CONSTRUCT THE UPGRADE.

--------------------------

And follows is The most recent CP MOD app filing from WSBN-FM. This hasn't been granted yet, It is a filing from Early Feb 2008, and it a bit newer than the CP mod filing mentioned in the info on the STA. This is the current "application" listing at bottom of page at the FM query for them - and is for changing to an antenna with Circular polarization rather than with the current CP (or STA) with vertical polarization only. - It has yet to be granted by FCC :

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1225110&Service=FM&Form_id=340&Facility_id=53677

And "the Channel 6 consent" for this, WSBN-FM's most recent FCC application :

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=615299

And a technical exhibit attached to the application (Includes some info on interference agreement with WDSU, info on the Circular polarization/etc) :

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=615300

-----------------------------------------

rrrrrroger

04-14-08, 07:35 AM

Just because a station was on a channel in analog didn't mean it would fit in the digital world, even though that is not what the FCC told stations when all of this started 10 years ago. As time went on, the FCC continued to tighten interference restrictions to the point that for most stations, the power levels they would have to run on their old analog channels would not cover their markets, so they had to stay on their temporary digital channels.....

.....those UHF stations who got lucky to get a VHF high digital assignment, now have first right of refusal over the older analog stations on the same channel because of the tighter restrictions on interference. The "first in rule." In this case, the first in rule applies to digital stations, and older analog stations converting to digital on the same channel now have to show interference protection to the newer digital stations cutting many older stations coverage considerably. In other words:

The FCC royally screwed up.

afiggatt

04-18-08, 10:09 AM

For those who have not checked, Falcon_77 posted an updated version of his DTV analysis spreadsheet last night. It has been updated to include the current licensed ERPs for all the analog VHF stations. When I collecting some of the numbers for Falcon_77, I was surprised at how many long established VHF stations are at the maximum 100 kW for low VHF or 316 kW for upper VHF. Many of the 100 kW low VHF stations managed to get strong UHF ERPs of 700 to 1000 kW. However, the digital ERPs for the upper VHF stations doing a flash cut back to the their VHF channel vary over a wide range with many of them quite low because of interference concerns with UHF stations that managed to grab a upper VHF slot. It may be that as a group the long time upper VHF stations will be the ones who suffer the greatest coverage loss in the post-transition period unless the FCC grants them higher broadcast power levels before next February.

BTW, came across this news snippet: "A total of 1030 full-power television stations have reported to the Federal Communications Commission that they have finished every aspect of their DTV transition, FCC chairman Kevin Martin has told a Senate committee." Full article at http://broadcastengineering.com/news/over_1000_stations_finished_0417/.

Falcon_77

04-23-08, 11:13 AM

Perhaps this will change in August, but for the moment, some stations are being constricted by the "5 mile" rule as it relates to their Appendix B allotment. Many stations which are going back to their analog Non-Directional antenna are having this problem where Appendix B assumed a side-mount.

Here is a partial listing of stations, which do not seem to be anywhere near replicating their analog coverage contour:

Station - 2009 DTV ERP/Ch vs. Analog ERP/Ch

KDLO - 0.88kW for 3 vs. 100kW for 3

KXMA - 50kW for 19 vs. 100kW for 2
KENW - 82.6kW/32 vs. 100kW/3
KTVO - 87kW/33 100kW/3
KITV - 85kW/40 100kW/4
WTOM - 78kW/35 100kW/4
KWSE - 53.9kW/51 79.4kW/4
KFVE - 5.4kW/23 95.5kW/5
KLEI - 2.5kW/25 52.5kW/6
WLUC - 83kW/35 100kW/6
KFDM - 50kW/21 100kW/6

WDAM - 79kW/28 316kW/7
KMTF - 43.4kW/29 217kW/10

Of course, there is much more to replication than matching contours, especially for the Low-VHF band. More to come later after I get caught up on the 301 & 340 filings.

Trip in VA

04-23-08, 11:26 AM

I can explain away some of those.

KENW was the defacto PBS for Roswell, Hobbs, and Carlsbad because of the wide coverage for VHF 3. KENW is not attempting to cover those cities with its main signal anymore; they have UHF digital translators in each city now. Each of those translators is sitting on a vacant non-commercial allocation, and my guess is that after the transition they'll be upgraded into "full-power" facilities.

KITV transmits from such a low height (top of a hotel I think?) that it's not worth the extra power most likely. 1000 kW would probably cause many more multipath problems than low signal problems it has now.

KFVE has been held up by their landlord, who apparently will not allow them to boost power. No idea what's happening here.

- Trip

Falcon_77

04-23-08, 08:54 PM

KENW was the defacto PBS for Roswell, Hobbs, and Carlsbad because of the wide coverage for VHF 3. KENW is not attempting to cover those cities with its main signal anymore; they have UHF digital translators in each city now. Each of those translators is sitting on a vacant non-commercial allocation, and my guess is that after the transition they'll be upgraded into "full-power" facilities.

The transition may reveal that more translators will be needed or SFN's, if we can get them to work on a broad scale here. Low-VHF seems to have been a bit of a crutch at times.

Falcon_77

04-23-08, 09:40 PM

KUSA (Denver, NBC) has been granted a CP on 9 for only 6kW, vs. the 39.6kW allotment. However, the HAAT has been increased to 352m vs. 318m.

Looking at the contour plot (page 6), it seems that this is another case of not being able to exceed the 5 mile Appendix B limit, but only at an odd angle:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=634645

Falcon_77

04-23-08, 11:02 PM

WBBM's application for 8kW on 12 was granted today. This is right up to the maximum 5 mile contour extension currently allowed. The allotment was 3.2kW and a petition to increase this to 13.6kW had previously been denied.

Here is their exhibit for further info:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=629658

dline

04-24-08, 01:35 PM

A couple of soon-to-be low-V stations serving Iowa got a bump this week:

- WOI (http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1242054&Service=DT&Form_id=301&Facility_id=8661) Ames-Des Moines (channel 5): from 3.9 kW to 8.2 kW.
- WHBF (http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1242064&Service=DT&Form_id=301&Facility_id=13950) Rock Island, IL-Quad Cities (channel 4): from 3.88 kW to 8.7 kW.

(Links above point to the applications, which are listed as "granted.")

In both cases, the stations want to use their current non-directional analog antennas to provide DT service, and their owner believes the power hikes are necessary to replicate their analog services.

Trip in VA

04-24-08, 04:28 PM

A new channel will be necessary to replicate their analog service.

But Citadel will find out the hard way I suppose.

- Trip

Falcon_77

04-25-08, 01:53 AM

A new channel will be necessary to replicate their analog service.

But Citadel will find out the hard way I suppose.

No doubt.

KDLO/3 had to reduce their ERP to 0.88kW, from the 3.7kW allotment to stay within the 5 mile contour expansion limit. Worrying about "expansions" beyond 5 miles seems silly for Low-VHF, when, A) there are so few stations there and, B) inner areas of the contour may be where reception is most difficult (and in need of additional power). Is there really a "City Grade" for Low-VHF?

Falcon_77

05-01-08, 10:58 AM

What is the easiest way to find out the input power of a station? I want to compare some Low-VHF with High-VHF and UHF stations to verify what is typical. I have 5, 10 and 22dB, but I would like to back these with some real data. It's probably best that I look at non-directional antennas only as I would expect directional antennas to vary widely.

Looking at the following authorization for WPVI, is DBK what I am looking for?

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/pubacc/Auth_Files/1231472.pdf

Thanks,

Falcon_77

05-01-08, 06:05 PM

Looking at the following authorization for WPVI, is DBK what I am looking for?

I should have known that dBk was just like dBm, except for kW and not mW. Thank you.

It seems TPO (of a transmitter) data is not as easily obtained as I had hoped. I can probably back into it from some of the CP filings, but I won't be doing this for more than perhaps 50 stations, to avoid more mission creep on the spreadsheet. :D

foxeng

05-01-08, 06:19 PM

Stations do not report TPO until they file for the License to Cover. The CP's only require ERP, antenna height and pattern and coverage area.

Larry Kenney

05-02-08, 04:30 AM

foxeng

05-02-08, 06:55 AM

For a specified ERP, the TPO will vary from station to station due to differences in loss due to length of coax and the gain of antenna. There are too many variables to work with the transmitter power when comparing stations.

Larry
SF

Example is my station. For years we had a TPO of 25 kW for 316 kW ERP. We changed antennas, but kept the same coverage area, same ERP but because the antenna was a different gain factor, the TPO went up to 32 kW. Tracking TPO for something like this is not very useful.

Falcon_77

05-02-08, 03:55 PM

For a specified ERP, the TPO will vary from station to station due to differences in loss due to length of coax and the gain of antenna. There are too many variables to work with the transmitter power when comparing stations.

This makes me feel better as I looked at about 8 stations last night and was throwing up my hands after a couple hours of analysis.

Perhaps comparing antenna gain is of some use, but with varying feedline lengths, etc., TPO is probably not worth tracking.

Comparing UHF vs. VHF operating costs is not as simple a task as I thought it would be.

foxeng

05-03-08, 07:30 AM

This makes me feel better as I looked at about 8 stations last night and was throwing up my hands after a couple hours of analysis.

Perhaps comparing antenna gain is of some use, but with varying feedline lengths, etc., TPO is probably not worth tracking.

Comparing UHF vs. VHF operating costs is not as simple a task as I thought it would be.

A good rule of thumb for operating costs can go something like this. Many VHF high stations will have a TPO between 1 and 8 kW for ERPs of 10-50kw digital power. That will equate to about 1 to 5k dollars a month. Many UHF stations in the 500 to 1000kW range will run between 25 to 75 kW TPO that will run between 10 to 25k dollars a month. Every station is different, but that should give you some idea of what stations are looking at paying to operate the different transmitters. The big cost is in maintenance costs. VHF high transmitters will be solid state rigs that will have extremely low yearly maintenance costs of $500 or less while tube UHF transmitters will be in the 7 to 15k a year maintenance cost range depending on how many IOTs the transmitter runs considering average cost of a a single IOT is $35k with a life span of 4 to 6 years averaged over those 4-6 years.

Remember that a 25kw TPO analog VHF high transmitter will only do about 5 kw TPO digital so the power bill will be similar even though the RF power levels look quite different.

Falcon_77

05-03-08, 10:56 PM

The big cost is in maintenance costs. VHF high transmitters will be solid state rigs that will have extremely low yearly maintenance costs of $500 or less while tube UHF transmitters will be in the 7 to 15k a year maintenance cost range

Thanks.

Are there solid-state UHF transmitters as well?

Thomas Desmond

05-04-08, 12:12 AM

Are there solid-state UHF transmitters as well?

Yes, there are -- but solid state is limited to lower power levels at UHF. Getting really high power levels out of solid-state devices is just more difficult (and expensive) than is the case for lower frequencies. As solid-state technology advances that will change, but it doesn't look like we're there yet.

foxeng

05-04-08, 08:01 AM

Thanks.

Are there solid-state UHF transmitters as well?

Yes, but the cost difference is huge right now. A 15kW UHF solid state will run you the same as a 50 kW tube transmitter. Of course if if all you need is 15 kW or less, then yes, a solid state UHF is something to look at. If you need more than that, it isn't cost effective. You would have to pay three times the amount of a tube transmitter for a solid state for the same power and you can never make up the difference in price with the reduced maintenance cost over the life of the transmitter. Costs are coming down, but they aren't there yet. It might be another 10 or 15 years before that happens. VHF hit that break even point about 15 years ago so it is cheaper to buy a VHF solid state than a tube. As a matter of fact, I don't think anyone makes a VHF tube rig anymore because of the associated costs.

Falcon_77

05-04-08, 07:13 PM

I posted an updated spreadsheet. The 301, 340 and 387 filings are current to 5/1. Also, the analog ERP's have been finished.

A few notes:

WCES - PBS - Augusta, GA - 6 - has been granted a CP for 45kW on 6, though their pattern remains very directional. It was previously allotted 30kW.

WDAF - FOX - Kansas City, MO - 34 - has filed for a License to Cover and filed an updated 387 noting they are now running their post-transition (PT) facility

KUTP - MyN - Phoenix, AZ - 26 - also filed for License to Cover and is operating their PT facility.

My next project is to begin tracking Licenses to Cover, so I can start turning the blue CP grants to X's (operating PT facility) as they occur. I discovered the two above from their 387 filings.

Desert Hawk

05-04-08, 07:58 PM

According to posts on the Fresno local thread, KAIL analog 53 digital RF 7 is mapping to virtual channel 7-1 and a subchannel on 7-2, not 53-1 and 53-2. I thought the FCC required all digital channels to map to their analog channel number. Does KAIL have special permission to map to their RF digital channel number, or are they doing this illegally. I think a station should be allowed to map to their RF digital channel number if they want to. Here in Bakersfield, KERO analog channel 23 digital RF channel 10 wants to map to 10-1 starting next February. Why should the FCC or anyone else want to prohibit it?

foxeng

05-05-08, 07:18 AM

FCC rules plalnly states that stations with analog channel numbers will use those analog channel numbers as their major channel numbers, not their actual RF channels. No waivers have been given that I am aware of. Sounds like someone hasn't read the rules.

Trip in VA

05-05-08, 09:05 AM

I have heard that WUPA-69 in Atlanta has a waiver. I have no confirmation, just something I heard, though I can't really imagine a CBS-owned station breaking the rules like that... Otherwise, I've not heard of any.

- Trip

Falcon_77

05-05-08, 10:46 AM

Yes, there are -- but solid state is limited to lower power levels at UHF. Getting really high power levels out of solid-state devices is just more difficult (and expensive) than is the case for lower frequencies. As solid-state technology advances that will change, but it doesn't look like we're there yet.

This article makes more sense to me now, from TV Technology:

http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0115/t.13212.html

Considering the wide variances, 10kW TPO would perhaps be enough to achieve around 100kW ERP.

Is it correct to assume that lower UHF channels are easier on the power bills? Line losses should be smaller for starters. Also, wouldn't 100kW ERP be more effective in say the 20's, vs. the 40's, so a lower ERP could replicate the same coverage?

KE0MI

05-05-08, 11:48 AM

At UHF, the radio frequency energy does not bend as much over the optical horizon as does VHF. The coverage area of say a 1,000 kW ERP digital over a 100 kW ERP is only increased by about 10 percent in area. One statement I've heard is that 90% of the power only gains 10% of the potential audience. There are some additional losses due to frequency in line loss and even free space loss, but these are minor in the overall scheme of the operation. The higher frequencies can have additional gain observed in the antenna, due to shorter wave length, and the ability to add additional radiating elements in the same physical length of the antenna support structure. There are also discussions of running eliptical or circular radiation patterns to improve coverage, particularly in urban canyons.

foxeng

05-05-08, 12:11 PM

Is it correct to assume that lower UHF channels are easier on the power bills? Line losses should be smaller for starters.

Yes, but not much. Less than 2% in most cases. Those IOT's SUCK the electrons no matter what frequency they operate on.

Also, wouldn't 100kW ERP be more effective in say the 20's, vs. the 40's, so a lower ERP could replicate the same coverage?

Actually the mid 30's to lower 40's are considered good UHF channels overall. 45 and above and you start to have a fairly major fall off of ERP verses distance.

Larry Kenney

05-05-08, 02:55 PM

I thought the FCC required all digital channels to map to their analog channel number. (snip) I think a station should be allowed to map to their RF digital channel number if they want to. Here in Bakersfield, KERO analog channel 23 digital RF channel 10 wants to map to 10-1 starting next February. Why should the FCC or anyone else want to prohibit it?

As I've stated before, I think this is the most ridiculous FCC rule that I've seen in a long time. Here in the SF Bay Area we're going to have several digital stations operating on the former analog channel of another station after the transition. For viewers trying to manually add channels to their viewing list, there's going to be a heck of a lot of confusion.

Examples: KTVU-FOX channel 2 will be transmitting on channel 44, which is now the analog channel for KBCW-CW. KBCW will have to ID as 44 but KTVU will actually be on 44. KRON-MyN channel 4 will be on channel 38, the present analog channel of KCNS. KCNS will be IDing as 38. There will be several other stations in this same situation around here.

How is the "average Joe" going to know that they have to put channel 44 into their TV to get channel 2 when KBCW is calling itself 44? I think stations should be allowed to ID with whichever channel they want, their former analog or their present digital, after the transition. Maybe lots of stations will be applying for permission to ID with their digital channel. We'll see.

We have one station, KCSM, who got permission to turn off their high powered analog transmitter on channel 60 a few years ago and are running a very low powered analog transmitter on 60 from their college campus in San Mateo. Their digital transmitter is on Sutro Tower on channel 43. They ID as 43-1, 43-2 and 43-3. Whether they got permission to do that or not, I don't know. Dish Network still has them listed as channel 60.

Here's another interesting situation that's going to occur next year. A low power station, KFTL-CA, will be going digital on KGO's present digital channel 24 after KGO moves to their present analog channel 7.

It's going to be fun watching all of the changes!

Larry
SF

dattier

05-05-08, 03:18 PM

No waivers have been given that I am aware of.WYIN in Gary might be jonesing for one. Their analog frequency is 56 and their digital frequency is 17. Their digital broadcasts come in as 56.1 and 56.2, but at http://www.lakeshoreptv.com/main.taf?p=1 they insist that the virtual channels are 17.1 and 17.4.

WYIN asserted must-carry for all of the city of Chicago, so even here in the cable region of Chicago farthest from Gary, we get them through Comcast, and they insisted that Comcast put them onto channel 17. They really want to be identified with the number 17.

N5XZS

05-05-08, 04:28 PM

I just think the FCC's rule about channel remapping is one the most dumbest idea ever IMHO.....:mad:

For the averages person is used to channel 2 and use his VHF low antenna for many years and he decided to buy digital to analog converter box to tune in digital signal and guess what can't get that signal which happen to be on UHF channel 34 because his VHF low antenna can't handle the shorter wavelength.;)

That's means he has to buy UHF antenna in order to get this signal on channel 34.

TV stations SHOULD be required to show the native channel number and no remapping fake channels number so the person can get the right antenna to get this signal.

That's why the FCC's rule should be thrown out and get this thing right.

TV broadcasters will have to get used to new station's ID channel number meaning no more KJOE ch. 2, it will be called KJOE-DT channel 34 and beside it's a brave new world for them.:D

5-5-08

StudioTech

05-05-08, 06:49 PM

How is the "average Joe" going to know that they have to put channel 44 into their TV to get channel 2 when KBCW is calling itself 44?

The FCC probably thinks that the average Joe won't be putting in channel numbers manually, but just keep rescanning the entire channel list over and over until the channel they want comes up.

Thomas Desmond

05-05-08, 11:04 PM

Considering the wide variances, 10kW TPO would perhaps be enough to achieve around 100kW ERP.

It depends on several factors -- primarily on antenna gain, but also on cable losses. Antenna gain can vary dramatically depending on how many "bays" (sections) the antenna has, and also on whether the station is running a directional or omnidirectional pattern. With a relatively low gain antenna, 10 kw TPO might translate to 100 kw ERP -- but I suspect that something a little higher would be more typical (150 kw, or a bit more). With a highly directional 24-bay antenna ERP could go much higher, but I doubt that many full powered stations are interested in running a 45 degree pattern.

MeowMeow

05-05-08, 11:28 PM

The FCC probably thinks that the average Joe won't be putting in channel numbers manually, but just keep rescanning the entire channel list over and over until the channel they want comes up.

In fairness, the FCC is just covering its butt in a way that will allow them to go to Congress (mind you this is the same technology-savvy Congress that thinks scanning filenames will be an effective deterrent to file sharing online) and say, "But this convoluted system that may or may not require a person to buy two antennas and a converter box to watch the same channels they've been watching since the early 1950s clearly was something any person can handle."

Throw on top of that the fact that even if the consumer is technically competent, they may still lose some channels even if they upgrade their antenna and their ATSC tuner, and as you can clearly see the FCC is in the clear when Congress asks, "Who lost OTA TV?"

I'm technically savvy and borderline suicidal when it comes to climbing on roofs and playing with electrical stuff. And it took me a few months when I became interested in OTA digital to get up to speed on getting a good UHF antenna and grounding it properly.

The only thing that is going to save OTA at all is that some rural cable systems still prefer to use the OTA signal as opposed to getting that spiffy fiber line straight from the stations.

Falcon_77

05-06-08, 01:16 AM

The only thing that is going to save OTA at all is that some rural cable systems still prefer to use the OTA signal as opposed to getting that spiffy fiber line straight from the stations.

To compete with newer wireless services, TV stations will probably need to adopt a similar model to survive in the long run. i.e. DTS/SFN systems, but would local content survive?

How successful would cell phones be if we had to use a 4221 to get adequate reception? Then again there are probably many areas where a 4221 would help cell phones significantly.

deltaguy

05-06-08, 02:40 AM

afiggatt

05-06-08, 09:35 AM

Should there be a DTV thread here somewhere? Something for persons targeted by the transition ads that say you'll get your tv, just like before, once you get a converter box. I'm thinking persons who will rely solely on an indoor antenna, like shown in the numerous ads, using analog sets.
You mean the Coupon Eligible Converter Box sub-forum in the recently renamed HDTV Technical forum? There is plenty of info & many threads in the technical forum on antennas and digital reception issues. This sticky is concerned with the local broadcast stations and their plans which concern the local reception threads in this forum.

MeowMeow

05-06-08, 12:51 PM

How successful would cell phones be if we had to use a 4221 to get adequate reception? Then again there are probably many areas where a 4221 would help cell phones significantly.

Yeah, this is true. I'm a bit of a nut when it comes to all things electronic. At my distance, OTA means getting up on the roof. Oh, and it pretty much means putting up a CM 4228 or a 91XG plus preamp, grounding lots of wiring, drilling through your wall...

Come to think of it, OTA is a real pain in the ass. No wonder I like it.

Falcon_77

05-06-08, 09:11 PM

Come to think of it, OTA is a real pain in the ass. No wonder I like it.

It's what makes it fun, right? :D

As respects Licenses to Cover, I'm assuming when they are filed, the facilities specified by the CP have been fully constructed and are ready and/or operating at that point. Is this correct?

CHeath

05-06-08, 09:31 PM

[QUOTE=Falcon_77;13809971]It's what makes it fun, right? :D

As respects Licenses to Cover, I'm assuming when they are filed, the facilities specified by the CP have been fully constructed and are ready and/or operating at that point. Is this correct?[/QUOTE

Denver might be the exception, but their countdown is now measured in days.

foxeng

05-07-08, 06:59 AM

As respects Licenses to Cover, I'm assuming when they are filed, the facilities specified by the CP have been fully constructed and are ready and/or operating at that point. Is this correct?

That is correct. Unless specified in the CP, CP's also authorize Program Test Authority when the facility is built as specified in the CP, it can begin operations without further permissions. The station then operates under PTA until the License to Cover is issued, sometime in the future, meaning when the FCC gets around to issuing it, literally.

Falcon_77

05-07-08, 11:25 AM

The station then operates under PTA until the License to Cover is issued, sometime in the future, meaning when the FCC gets around to issuing it, literally.

It seems that the License to Cover grant can take years. For example, I was surprised to find out that the KYW License to Cover for 26 has been pending for almost 10 years. Am I looking at it right? :confused:

foxeng

05-07-08, 12:53 PM

FCC Sets Wilmington, N.C., as Digital-Switch Test Market, Sources Say

By Michele Greppi and Ira Teinowitz

Federal Communications Commission Chairman Kevin Martin is set to announce Thursday that it will run a test of the switch to digital broadcasting signals in Wilmington, N.C., the smallest TV market in the Tarheel state, sources said.

The congressionally mandated national switch to digital takes place Feb. 19. The FCC didn't return multiple calls seeking comment.

The test in North Carolina, Mr. Martin's home state, is likely to take place before the November sweeps ratings period. If things do not go smoothly during the trial run, it could affect stations’ revenues during one of the months used to set advertising rates for the next fiscal quarter.

The Wilmington market, served by affiliates of all the major networks, is the 135th largest measured by Nielsen Media Research, which says 179,760 of the 182,500 homes in the area have televisions.

WWAY-TV, owned by Morris Multimedia, is the ABC affiliate in the area. NBC-affiliated WECT-TV and Fox-affiliated WSFX-TV are owned by Raycom Media. WILM-TV is the CBS affiliate owned by Capitol Broadcasting Co. WMYW-LP is the MyNetworkTV affiliate, and The CW has a cable-only affiliate. The market gets its public broadcast signal from WUNJ-TV.

Local broadcasters did not return calls seeking comment.

FCC Commissioner Michael Copps has been pushing for a test in a small market that met certain criteria, including that all broadcast stations’ digital signals already are on the air on the same channels where they will be found when the official digital switch takes place.

The idea is to learn, among other things, how many TV homes may be unprepared for the transition, which will require viewers to have digital sets, boxes that can convert digital broadcast signals to analog on older sets, or delivery of programs by cable or satellite services.

The sources who confirmed the announcement of the test weren't able to say when it may begin. However, the trial run will be preceded by a big education campaign by local stations about converter boxes and the availability of coupons worth $40 toward the purchase of the converters through local retailers.

Throughout the country, some 1 million coupons have been used as part of the National Telecommunications & Information Administration’s converter box coupon program, according to recent information.

http://www.tvweek.com/news/2008/05/sources_fcc_sets_wilmington_nc.php

Falcon_77

05-07-08, 08:15 PM

Federal Communications Commission Chairman Kevin Martin is set to announce Thursday that it will run a test of the switch to digital broadcasting signals in Wilmington, N.C., the smallest TV market in the Tarheel state, sources said.

Only 4 full power stations are in that DMA:

WUNJ/PBS (39/29/29)
WSFX/FOX (23/30/30)
WECT/NBC (6/44/44)
WWAY/ABC (3/46/46)

WECT expressed concerns about its service area and I see that they filed a new application for a CP just yesterday for 710kW/590m vs. their current licensed facility (575/280). The application also appears to have them moving to the WSFX tower. Incidentally, WSFX is only operating at 80kW ERP.

With no VHF DTV stations to test, it wouldn't be my choice. However, they will be testing Low-VHF analog vs. UHF DTV, which has important implications for most markets.

Another thought I had is will the low power stations, WILM and W47CK (WMYW), etc. be required to turn off their analog signals as part of the test, even though they aren't subject to the transition? Also, W51CW appears to be a TBN translator.

foxeng

05-08-08, 06:59 AM

One of the near by market threads stated they saw a crawl on WECT yesterday that this would start Sept 8 but didn't say how long it would run.

foxeng

05-08-08, 07:02 AM

WILM has a CP for channel 40 as their digital channel and they are owned by WRAL. They may be up by the time the test takes place. The other LPTV's shouldn't matter if they are on or not since they don't cover that much of the market to start with.

foxeng

05-08-08, 07:06 AM

Wilmington DTV Switch: Sept. 8, 2008
135th Largest DMA To Become First Transition Test Market
By Ted Hearn -- Multichannel News, 5/7/2008 7:09:00 PM
Washington—Wilmington, N.C., will become the first market to switch to all-digital broadcasting on Sept.8, 2008, Wilmington Mayor Bill Saffo said Wednesday.

“We'll be the first in the country,” Saffo said, adding that he was “honored” to have his city take the lead.

The test is slated to begin Monday Sept. 8, a week after Labor Day.

The Federal Communications Commission is planning to announce Wednesday afternoon that Wilmington will be selected as the TV transition test market, an FCC official said.

By law, all full-power TV stations need to terminate analog service on Feb. 17, 2009. FCC Chairman Kevin Martin has been coming under pressure to find a test market to determine the level of preparation in a typical market prior to the national switch over.

FCC Democrat Michael Copps has been nagging Martin for months to find a test market.

"This is very good news for the DTV transition. Real-world experience is an extremely important step—although only one of many—that will help minimize consumer disruption next February. Broadway shows open on the road to work out the kinks before opening night. The DTV transition deserves no less," Copps said in a statement Wednesday night.

Saffo said he is optimistic that his city will be ready to conduct a smooth transition soon after Labor Day.

“The FCC has assured me that they are going to come down here and do everything in their power ...to make this as smooth as possible,” Saffo said. “We look at the FCC as being a partner in this.”

According to Nielsen Media Research, Wilmington is the 135th largest TV market out of 210.

Saffo said he was well-aware that the eyes of the nation would be following DTV developments in his coastal city.

“It's a huge opportunity for Wilmington to pave the way for the rest of country,” Saffo said. “I am looking forward to working with [the FCC] and honored to be the first community in the country to do it.”

Nielsen has cable and satellite TV providers serving 92.6% of Wilmington area households, leaving just 7.4% relying exclusively on free TV. Nationally, the broadcast-only audience ranges from 11% to 19% of households, depending on source of the data.

According to the Center for Public Integrity's media ownership database, the Wilmington market has 10 licensed TV stations.

The city of Wilmington, situated close to the Atlantic shoreline, has a population of 91,137, according to U.S. Census Bureau data for 2003.

Analog TV sets that rely exclusively on free over the air broadcasting will cease to function unless they are adapted to display digital signals.

The federal government plans to spend up to $1.5 billion to subsidize consumer acquisition of digital-to-analog converter boxes. The program allows each household to receive two $40 coupons to defray converter box costs. On Tuesday, the U.S. Commerce Department announced that 1 million coupons had been used since people began applying on Jan. 1.

Saffo said that ensuring broadcast-only viewers were not left behind was essential.

“Obviously we have some concerns,” Saffo said. “Our concern is at those folks who do not have a converter box are going to be given those converter boxes ...”

In theory, cable and satellite TV homes won't be affected by the transition unless they have analog TV sets not connected to one of the pay TV services.

TiVoFishMan

05-08-08, 09:39 AM

Only 4 full power stations are in that DMA:

WUNJ/PBS (39/29/29)
WSFX/FOX (23/30/30)
WECT/NBC (6/44/44)
WWAY/ABC (3/46/46)

Just exactly what are they "testing"?

According to their form 387's, all 4 of these stations are already operating their post-transition facilities.

So, what do they need to "test" other than doing signal measurements on their already-operating DTV facilities?

Does this "test" simply mean shutting off the analog transmitters to see how big a hue and cry rises up from the viewers?

If that hue and cry is too big, is the FCC going to push the transition back yet again? (Ignoring the fact that shutting down the analog in one market early is going to catch more people by surprise than the scheduled shutdown would?)

PA_MainyYak

05-08-08, 11:01 AM

Just exactly what are they "testing"?

According to their form 387's, all 4 of these stations are already operating their post-transition facilities.

So, what do they need to "test" other than doing signal measurements on their already-operating DTV facilities?

Does this "test" simply mean shutting off the analog transmitters to see how big a hue and cry rises up from the viewers?

If that hue and cry is too big, is the FCC going to push the transition back yet again? (Ignoring the fact that shutting down the analog in one market early is going to catch more people by surprise than the scheduled shutdown would?)

You got it. That's exactly what they are testing. And I share your concerns that a few complaints may well blossom into another hue and cry from Congress to end this "national nightmare."

[Involk VENT mode]
One of the problems I've noticed with the DTV Transition ad campaign is the emphasis on stating that it will become a digital world next February - rather than letting consumers know that the digital infrastructure in (generally) up and running, and has been for some time. Frankly, that message should have been out there long ago, but most broadcasters chose to hide (perhaps "ignore" is a better term) their digital operations until they were absolutely required to do so.
Now I read where the head of the NAB wants President Bush to get more involved in the transition campaign. Why? It makes no sense.
[End VENT mode]

Still, this "test" may allow the FCC and broadcasters to discover fire and give them incentive to improve the education effort. Just watch out for the flying pigs. :D

Falcon_77

05-08-08, 11:36 AM

So, what do they need to "test" other than doing signal measurements on their already-operating DTV facilities?

Does this "test" simply mean shutting off the analog transmitters to see how big a hue and cry rises up from the viewers?

Well, if I'm to believe the PSA's I'm seeing, all the stations will flash-cut to digital, from analog only operations, on 2/17/09. :rolleyes:

If the PSA's or the stations themselves bothered to mention that DTV signals already exist (and with over half in their PT form), it may help reduce the "hue and cry."

foxeng

05-08-08, 12:25 PM

The way I am reading it, this "test" is a test in name only. When the Wilmington stations shut down analog, they are done. No turning them back on is the way I read them. And yes, the whole purpose of this excerise is to see how much complaining the public does. Remember, Copps is a Democrat who doesn't like Martin (a North Carolina Republican, who has been rumored to have his sights on the Governers office, see a pattern developing here, Wilmington, NC?) and even though Copps is a hold over from the Clinton Administration and has been on the FCC since 1999 when a lot of todays DTV rules were put in place, he is now acting like he has never heard of DTV and is trying to make Martin out as an idiot. I also would not be surprised, (and no way to prove it either way) the more radical types in Congress has put him up to this. This "test" should have been programmed into the transition a long time ago so if something was found, there would be time to fix it. You have stations NOW building out their post digital facilities. They can't turn back now no matter what they find from the "Wilmington Test." Too late in the process. At this point in the game, it is pure politics, plain and simple and not only the broadcasters will loose this one, but the public will too and right now, the Congress and the FCC are on the hot seat and they know it and the public is now, with the DTV education, beginning to know it as well and some in Congress are getting cold feet on this.

TiVoFishMan

05-08-08, 01:42 PM

Well, if I'm to believe the PSA's I'm seeing, all the stations will flash-cut to digital, from analog only operations, on 2/17/09. :rolleyes:

If the PSA's or the stations themselves bothered to mention that DTV signals already exist (and with over half in their PT form), it may help reduce the "hue and cry."

Agree 100%.

Almost all the "non-enthusiast" information out there, and especially the PSAs being sent out by the stations imply that there are no digital broadcasts on the air right now, and come Feb. 17, it will be one massive nation-wide flash cut by all stations to digital. :rolleyes:

The folks these PSAs are targeting would be better served if it were made clear to them that they can take their converter box coupons to Wal-Mart or Best Buy, get their converter boxes, hook them up now and check out their digital reception. If they need to tweak their antenna, they have the opportunity to do it before they lose their analog signals rather than after.

They can't turn back now no matter what they find from the "Wilmington Test." Too late in the process. At this point in the game, it is pure politics, plain and simple and not only the broadcasters will loose this one, but the public will too and right now, the Congress and the FCC are on the hot seat and they know it and the public is now, with the DTV education, beginning to know it as well and some in Congress are getting cold feet on this.

I whole heartedly agree.

As a "foxeng" you ought to appreciate this: My local FOX affiliate has applied for, and been granted, early transition. They plan to shut down analog in Dec. of 2008. They want to re-task their analog power amp and antenna for digital, their post-transition channel is 8, same as their analog, and they want to shut down early, rebuild their transmitter, and fire up digital on "8" before the end of 2008.

How PO'd do you think they'll be if they dismantle their analog transmitter, convert it to digital, and then Congress comes through with last-minute emergency legislation that pushes back the transition a couple more years! :eek:

(For the record their pre-transition DTV channel works great, and they were the first in New Orleans with fully 720p news.)

Even those channels that are already operating their post-transition transmitters are mostly chomping at the bit to shut them down, save the cost of electricity, maintenance, and duplicate STL links and get the heck on with life.

I, for one, will be annoyed if Congress delays the transition again. Sadly, I'm starting to see the writing on the wall...

narkspud

05-08-08, 01:56 PM

An observation:

Wilmington, NC = coastal market
Sept. 8 = middle of hurricane season

I'm just sayin'.

Another observation: Although WILM is a low power, it is also the CBS affiliate in the market. And last I heard, their digital wasn't up yet.

TiVoFishMan

05-08-08, 02:28 PM

Another observation: Although WILM is a low power, it is also the CBS affiliate in the market. And last I heard, their digital wasn't up yet.

As a low power station, they don't have to transition by Feb. 17.

They won't be part of the test. They'll just remain analog. (Unless their digital is up by then, and they choose to participate.)

foxeng

05-08-08, 03:04 PM

Even those channels that are already operating their post-transition transmitters are mostly chomping at the bit to shut them down, save the cost of electricity, maintenance, and duplicate STL links and get the heck on with life.

I would say that is a fair statement.

I, for one, will be annoyed if Congress delays the transition again. Sadly, I'm starting to see the writing on the wall...

Turth is Congress didn't care in 2005 when they were trying to out do each other on WHO was in control of the date and trying to make political points. Now they are starting to sweat it.

narkspud

05-08-08, 03:49 PM

As a low power station, they don't have to transition by Feb. 17.

They won't be part of the test. They'll just remain analog. (Unless their digital is up by then, and they choose to participate.)

That will bugger up the test, though, won't it? A network affiliate that stays analog?

Speaking of which, UNC TV, who runs WUNJ, has already declared that they "decline to participate" in the test. “We thought it was important for there to be one broadcast available to the city in case of emergency.” UNC TV originates in Chapel Hill, but oh well.

http://www.starnewsonline.com/article/20080507/ARTICLE/118071900/1004&title=Wilmington_to_switch_to_digital_TV_signals_before_rest _of_country

TiVoFishMan

05-08-08, 04:36 PM

That will bugger up the test, though, won't it? A network affiliate that stays analog?

Speaking of which, UNC TV, who runs WUNJ, has already declared that they "decline to participate" in the test. “We thought it was important for there to be one broadcast available to the city in case of emergency.” UNC TV originates in Chapel Hill, but oh well.

http://www.starnewsonline.com/article/20080507/ARTICLE/118071900/1004&title=Wilmington_to_switch_to_digital_TV_signals_before_rest _of_country

Sounds like the test is fully buggered in a lot of other ways. :D

As to WILM remaining analog, that would be totally in-line with what's going to happen on Feb. 17, 2009 anyway.

Low power stations don't have to shut down analog for several more years. (2014? -- I'm going to have to go look it up).

So, test or no test, come Feb. 17, there's going to be low power analog stations all over the US remaining analog for years after the "transition".

So, WILM remaining analog is arguably a "realistic test" since the public is going to have to deal with exactly that scenario (LP stations still being analog) after the real transition date.

The network affiliation is irrelevant to the FCC from the standpoint of these rules. The only relevance is the power class of the station.

foxeng

05-08-08, 04:53 PM

FCC Confirms Wilmington as Digital Test Market
By Ira Teinowitz and Julieanne Smolinski

Federal Communications Commission Chairman Kevin Martin has formally selected Wilmington, N.C., as the test market for the digital transition.

“It will help us spot issues that we need to address throughout the country,” Mr. Martin told a Washington news conference today, surrounded by the mayor of Wilmington and local broadcasters.

The announcement confirms TVWeek’s report that Mr. Martin would select his home state for the dry run of the congressionally mandated switch.

Nielsen ranks the Wilmington market as the 135th largest of major-network affiliates. Beginning at noon on Sept. 8, WWAY-TV (ABC), WSFX-TV (Fox), WECT-TV (NBC), WILM-LP (CBS), and W51CW (Trinity Broadcasting) will broadcast only digital signals to their viewers in the five North Carolina counties that make up the market.

Wilmington PBS station WUNJ-TV will continue to broadcast in both analog and digital until the national transition, set for Feb. 17. The station is part of UNC-TV, the state’s public TV network; it said today that it was concerned that turning off its analog signal in the midst of hurricane season might deprive viewers of needed emergency information.

Mr. Martin said today that the FCC would have full-time staff in Wilmington through the transition to speak and attend events ranging from the riverfront festival to the blueberry festival. He said the agency would prepare public service announcements, outdoor billboards and posters promoting the transition.

Wilmington was chosen for the test run because all of its commercial stations have completed construction of their DTV channels and are operating at full post-transition power.

Jonathan Collegio, the National Association of Broadcasters' VP of the digital television transition, said in a statement: “The FCC-initiated experiment in Wilmington can shed light on a number of issues surrounding the national DTV transition in February 2009. The results must be objectively reviewed to determine how or whether the findings can be applied nationwide. NAB will be fully supportive of our local television broadcasters in this effort."

FCC Commissioner Michael Copps, who had been to England to watch its switchover, had pushed for a test before the national switch. Today he praised both the FCC and local broadcasters for voluntarily agreeing to it.

“It’s not risk-free. It’s not problem-free,” he said.

While Mr. Martin suggested Wilmington’s switch would offer valuable information, Commissioner Jonathan Adelstein said he was concerned that Wilmington would be more a showplace than a real test. The kind of effort the agency is putting into making sure Wilmington goes right is unlikely to be there when the rest of the country switches.

“The question is whether it is a real test or a staged dress rehearsal,” said Mr. Adelstein.

Broadcasters said they expected some disruption in advertising and viewership during the switch, but that it would have occurred anyway in February.

“Whether we do the transition in September or we do it in February, we are going to have some disruption to work through,” said Jim Goodmon, president-CEO of Capitol Broadcasting, which owns WILM-LP.

“If you don’t know the transition is coming in Wilmington, you won’t be breathing. But I don’t know how we are not going to have a disruption. We are going to have a disruption. We are going to make it as small as we can.”

Paul McTear, president-CEO of Raycom Media, which owns WECT-TV, said the high level of cable and satellite households in the market—93%—together with the number that already have requested discount coupons for converter boxes, meant few households would lose TV service. He predicted the biggest problem would be with second sets.

http://www.tvweek.com/news/2008/05/fcc_confirms_wilmington_as_dig.php

afiggatt

05-08-08, 05:00 PM

Low power stations don't have to shut down analog for several more years. (2014? -- I'm going to have to go look it up).

So, test or no test, come Feb. 17, there's going to be low power analog stations all over the US remaining analog for years after the "transition".

IIRC, the chairman of the FCC said they were looking at requiring all Class A, Low Power, and translators to be digital by 2012. But AFAIK, the FCC still has not released a detailed transition plan for the low power stations. They have issued digital channel allocations to LP stations and a handful of LP stations have flash cut to digital, but how many, if any, LP stations will file to go digital on 02/17/09 or in the months afterwards appears to be up in the air (:p).

Desert Hawk

05-08-08, 08:18 PM

So the TBN low power station in Wilmington is flash cutting to digital in September? Are they going to make all their LP stations digital by next February? Here in Bakersfield thye have a LP channel 21. The signal is horrible where I live. They are probably getting cochannel interference from KFTV 21 Hanford/Fresno. KFTV's signal was never strong enough to receive here, but I suppose it could still casue cochannel interference to a local LP. KFTV is staying on their digital channel 20 next year. Hopefully TBN will then be able to boost power on LP 21, as well as going digital. I would like to get The Church Channel and JCTV on subchannels. Does anyone know if TBN is planning to completely swithc their LP network to digital soon? I couldn't find anything on their website, but the FCC website says that a construction permit for a digital LP channel 21 has been granted.

TiVoFishMan

05-08-08, 10:15 PM

Nielsen ranks the Wilmington market as the 135th largest of major-network affiliates. Beginning at noon on Sept. 8, WWAY-TV (ABC), WSFX-TV (Fox), WECT-TV (NBC), WILM-LP (CBS), and W51CW (Trinity Broadcasting) will broadcast only digital signals to their viewers in the five North Carolina counties that make up the market.

Thanks for the info foxeng!

So, the low power CBS and low power Trinity affiliates in Wilmington will apparently be flash-cutting in September.

Very interesting...

foxeng

05-09-08, 01:02 PM

NEWS
Federal Communications Commission
445 12th Street, S.W.
Washington, D. C. 20554
This is an unofficial announcement of Commission action. Release of the full text of a Commission order constitutes official action.
See MCI v. FCC. 515 F 2d 385 (D.C. Circ 1974).
News Media Information 202 / 418-0500
Internet: http://www.fcc.gov
TTY: 1-888-835-5322

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: NEWS MEDIA CONTACT:
May 8, 2008 Clyde Ensslin, 202-418-0875
Email: clyde.ensslin@fcc.gov

DTV Transition Premiers in Wilmington, North Carolina
DTV Test Pilot Program to Begin September 8, 2008

Washington, DC – Federal Communications Commission (FCC) Chairman Kevin Martin today
announced Wilmington, North Carolina, will be the first market to test the transition to digital
television (DTV) in advance of the nationwide transition to DTV on February 17, 2009. The
commercial broadcasters serving the Wilmington television market have voluntarily agreed to
turn off their analog signals at noon on September 8, 2008. Beginning at 12:00 pm on
September 8, 2008, these local stations, WWAY (ABC), WSFX-TV (FOX), WECT (NBC),
WILM-LP (CBS), and W51CW (Trinity Broadcasting) will broadcast only digital signals to their
viewers in the five North Carolina counties that comprise this television market.
Representatives of each local affiliate, Donna Barrett, President and CEO of Southeastern Media
Holdings, Inc. (WSFX (FOX)), Andy Combs, Station Manager of WWAY (ABC), Jim
Goodmon, President and CEO of Capitol Broadcasting (WILM-LP (CBS)), Paul McTear,
President and CEO of Raycom Media Inc. (WECT (NBC)), and Colby May, Esq. on behalf of
Trinity Broadcasting (W51CW) made the announcement along with the Mayor of Wilmington,
Bill Saffo, and the President and CEO of the Wilmington Chamber of Commerce, Connie
Majure-Rhett.

The DTV transition for the whole country will take place on February 17, 2009, when all
full power television stations must turn off their analog signals and broadcast only digital signals.
This test market will be an early transition that will give broadcasters and consumers a chance to
experience in advance the upcoming DTV transition. The Commission is coordinating with local
officials and community groups to accelerate and broaden consumer education outreach efforts.
The outreach will focus on the special transition date for Wilmington and the steps viewers may
need to take to be ready by September.

In making the announcement, the Chairman said: "On March 3, 2008, my colleague,
Commissioner Michael Copps, suggested that the Commission engage in real-world experience
readying broadcasters and consumers in advance of the upcoming digital transition, including
test markets that would switch to all-digital service before February 17, 2009. I commend the
Wilmington broadcasters for their pioneer spirit to go first to help the entire country prepare for
the final transition to digital on February 17, 2009. This experience will help us to spot issues
that we need to address elsewhere in the country before next February.”

The Commission identified Wilmington as one of a limited number of potential test
markets to test the transition because all the commercial stations in the market have already
completed construction of their DTV channels and are operating at full post-transition power.
The Wilmington PBS station, WUNJ, will continue broadcasting in both analog and digital. One
other low power station has its digital channel assignment, but will continue broadcasting an
analog signal. The Commission will use the test market as an opportunity to work very closely
in advance with broadcasters, viewers, cable companies and others who will be affected to
anticipate and address any problems. The Commission is also coordinating with NTIA and local
retailers to be sure that digital-to-analog converter boxes are readily available in local stores for
consumers who rely on over-the-air service and have analog televisions.

-FCC-

News about the Federal Communications Commission can also be found
on the Commission’s web site www.fcc.gov.

foxeng

05-09-08, 01:05 PM

CHAIRMAN KEVIN J. MARTIN STATEMENT REGARDING
WILMINGTON, NORTH CAROLINA EARLY TRANSITION

Thursday, May 8, 2008

Wilmington, North Carolina…..
“First in Flight, First in Digital”

(As Prepared for Delivery)

Good afternoon everyone and thank you for being here today. I would like
to give special thanks to Bill Saffo, the Mayor of Wilmington, Connie
Majure-Rhett, President and CEO of the Wilmington Chamber of
Commerce, Acting Assistant Secretary of Commerce, Meredith Baker, and
especially all the Wilmington, North Carolina broadcasters, specifically,
Donna Barrett, President and CEO of Southeastern Media Holdings, Inc.
(WSFX (FOX)), Andy Combs, Station Manager of WWAY (ABC), Jim
Goodmon, President and CEO of Capitol Broadcasting (WILM-LP (CBS)),
Paul McTear, President and CEO of Raycom Media Inc. (WECT (NBC))
and Colby May, Esq. on behalf of Trinity Broadcasting (W51CW) for
participating in this important event today.

Few moments in history have done more to capture the heart of the
American spirit than the Wright brothers' momentous first flight at Kitty
Hawk, North Carolina on December 17, 1903. Just as the year 1903 became
a year for the history books, the year 2008 looks to be another trail-blazing
year for the State of North Carolina.

In the same vein of American spirit, I am pleased to announce that
Wilmington, North Carolina will be the first market in the country to make
the transition to digital television (DTV).

The commercial broadcasters serving the Wilmington television market have
agreed to step up to the challenges of premiering the nation’s DTV
transition. They will all turn off their analog signals at noon on September
8, 2008. Beginning at 12:00pm on September 8, 2008, these local stations,
WWAY (ABC), WSFX-TV (FOX), WECT (NBC),WILM-LP (CBS) and
W51CW (Trinity Broadcasting), will broadcast only digital signals to their
viewers in the five North Carolina counties that comprise this television
market.

The DTV transition for the whole country will take place on February 17,
2009, when all full power television stations must turn off their analog
signals and broadcast only digital signals. This test market will be an early
transition that will give broadcasters and consumers a chance to experience
in advance the upcoming DTV transition. This early test will help us
minimize potential burdens for viewers and maximize their ability to benefit
from it. The Commission is coordinating with local officials and community
groups to accelerate and broaden consumer education outreach efforts. The
outreach will focus on the special transition date for Wilmington and the
steps viewers may need to take to be ready by September.

On March 3, 2008, my colleague, Commissioner Michael Copps, suggested
that the Commission engage in real-world experience readying broadcasters
and consumers in advance of the upcoming digital transition. Specifically,
he suggested test markets that would switch to all-digital service. I
commend the Wilmington broadcasters for their pioneer spirit to go first to
help the entire country prepare for the final transition to digital. This
experience will help us to spot issues that we need to address elsewhere in
the country before next February.

The Commission identified Wilmington as one of only a limited number of
potential test markets because only all the commercial stations in the market
have already completed construction of their DTV channels and are
operating at full post-transition power. The Commission will use the test
market as an opportunity to work very closely in advance with broadcasters,
viewers, cable companies and others who will be affected to anticipate and
address any problems. The Commission is also coordinating with NTIA and
local retailers to be sure that digital-to-analog converter boxes are readily
available in local stores for consumers who rely on over-the-air service and
have analog televisions.

The Wilmington PBS station, WUNJ, will continue broadcasting in both
analog and digital. One other low power station that has its digital channel
assignment will continue broadcasting an analog signal.

I’d like to take a few moments to explain what the FCC plans to contribute
to this effort.

First, we are working closely with all the broadcasters in the Wilmington,
North Carolina market to ensure that they are technically ready to transition
early.

Second, a Wilmington team, comprised of FCC staffers, is poised to be on
the ground in every county of the Wilmington, North Carolina DMA starting
next week for the months leading up to the transition to educate consumers
about this early transition. In addition, others from the Commission plan on
traveling several times to Wilmington, North Carolina in the next few
weeks, July, and again in August to do public events and promote the
transition via the local media.

Third, Ketchum, our outside PR consultant is in the process of developing
15, 30, and 60 second radio and TV PSAs, and outside billboard advertising,
specific to the Wilmington market, highlighting the early transition.

Fourth, we are tailoring specific posters and FCC publications for the
Wilmington, NC market that we will distribute to local county officials and
city government officials, library systems, faith-based organizations,
hospitals, sports leagues, senior centers, and other local grass roots and
community-based organizations.

Finally, we are already planning to participate in the following local events
in the Wilmington, North Carolina area in the near future:

· We'll be onsite at all locally sponsored events where people gather to
discuss the DTV transition, and assist interested consumer in applying
for the converter box coupon program. For example, the River Front
Farmer’s Market, or the Blueberry festival in Pender County which is
held on June 20 and 21.

· We will be making a presentation at the Wilmington City Council
meeting on May 20th.

· We have an exhibit booth space set for the White Lake Water Festival
held in Bladen County on May 16, 17, and 18. At this event we will
pass out flyers and educate people about the transition, especially the
converter box program.

· In Elizabeth Town, we’ll have a table onsite at the 30th birthday party
celebration for their public library on June 26. At this event FCC staff
will pass out flyers, demonstrate the converter box and help people
enroll in the converter box coupon program.

· We already have an agreement with the Director of the Senior Center
in New Hanover to (1) do a workshop at the Senior Center, (2) attend
the May 28 Annual Health & Fitness Fair, and (3) provide literature
for the Home Delivered Meals Program which delivers 312 meals a
DAY to seniors.

· We are setting up “FCC Town Halls” in each county to discuss in an
open format the specifics of the early transition.

· We are working with the retailers with the purpose of hosting “Ask
the FCC” sessions at consumer electronics retailers where consumers
will go to buy digital equipment, including converter boxes.
The FCC is committed to ensuring that no American in Wilmington, North
Carolina is left in the dark. Each of us here today wants to be sure that every
consumer in Wilmington, North Carolina continues to receive their
programming on September 8th, 2008. I look forward to continuing to work
with the local Wilmington broadcasters, the local government in
Wilmington, the NTIA, the cable companies, the satellite companies, the
retailers, the manufacturers, and the consumer advocacy groups during the
coming four months. And I stress that a successful early DTV transition
requires the commitment and cooperation of all of us.

Thank you all for your time and please join me in helping to get the word
out.

foxeng

05-09-08, 01:08 PM

STATEMENT OF COMMISSIONER JONATHAN S. ADELSTEIN ON DTV TEST
MARKET – PRESS CONFERENCE

May 8, 2008

I’m pleased that broadcasters, businesses and elected representatives – especially
Congressman McIntyre and Mayor Saffo – have volunteered their beautiful city of Wilmington, North Carolina, to be the first U.S. city to cease analog broadcasting and go all digital on September 8th – exactly four months from today. I want to thank the outstanding leadership of my colleague, Commissioner Copps, for pressing this excellent idea forward, and Chairman Martin for helping to make it happen.

The Commission has acted on several helpful suggestions made by me, Commissioner
Copps and Members of Congress. With my urging, the Commission has resurrected our internal DTV task force that was misguidedly dismantled two years ago and is now permitting Commission staff – the real experts – to take more of a proactive role in reaching out to communities across the country. With prodding from Congress, the Commission has developed consumer education requirements for broadcasters and others in private industry.

Some would say that the City of Wilmington is quite brave for volunteering to be the test market of an uncoordinated DTV transition process. But the truth is that by completing their transition to digital TV five months before the deadline for the rest of the nation, Wilmington is providing itself and the entire country with a great service.

As somebody who’s played in rock bands, I know that every good band rehearses and
gets it right before it goes on the main stage. In this rehearsal, I hope the FCC will coordinate with not only local broadcasters, but also with local cable operators, DBS operators, state and local governments, local community groups, and local consumer electronic retailers. Significant local involvement supported by the federal government is critical to a successful transition.

Equally important is the Commission’s coordination with the National
Telecommunications Information Administration (NTIA) to make sure that sufficient converter boxes with and without analog pass-through capability are available, that coupons are delivered in time to Wilmington households, and that direct technical assistance is available to senior citizens and other vulnerable populations.

Such level of coordination will truly be unprecedented and, I hope, will give the
Commission a wake-up call of how daunting of a task lies ahead before February 17, 2009. In light of the considerable time and resources the Commission will dedicate to Wilmington, we must address the difficult question of whether we have a similar or comparable plan for the rest of America.

Do we have a coordinated plan? Have we allocated our resources to target the priority or high-risk markets in a comprehensive manner? Are we going to be assigning full-time staff from the Media and Public Safety Bureaus to Wilmington, and if so, will we do so for every other community in America? Will we study what makes Wilmington unique, and not misapply lessons learned there to, say, more mountainous regions? If the answer to these questions is “no,” the real question becomes whether this is a truly representative test case, or just a staged dress rehearsal under false conditions.

If we put massive resources into making this succeed, all out of proportion to what we do elsewhere, will we gain a false sense of complacency? I sure hope not. Ad hoc efforts are not a substitute for a thoughtful, coordinated plan. Every community in America deserves nothing less than what we will put into Wilmington. A failure to plan is a plan to fail.

Perhaps today will be the beginning of the Commission developing a coordinated plan for
all media markets in America.

dattier

05-09-08, 03:08 PM

CHAIRMAN KEVIN J. MARTIN
STATEMENT REGARDING WILMINGTON, NORTH CAROLINA EARLY TRANSITION

Thursday, May 8, 2008

Wilmington, North Carolina…..
“First in Flight, First in Digital”

(As Prepared for Delivery)

...

Few moments in history have done more to capture the heart of the American spirit than the Wright brothers' momentous first flight at Kitty Hawk, North Carolina on December 17, 1903. Just as the year 1903 became a year for the history books, the year 2008 looks to be another trail-blazing year for the State of North Carolina.

Is the good chairman sure that he laid it on thick enough? Perhaps his natural reticence tricked him into understatement.

How about this?

"Few moments in history have done more to capture the heart of the American spirit than the secession of North Carolina from the Union on May 20, 1861. Just as the year 1861 became a year for the history books ..."

I'm as curious about the results of this as the average AVS Forum member, but Mr. Martin's speech really overblew it.

afiggatt

05-09-08, 05:23 PM

As to WILM remaining analog, that would be totally in-line with what's going to happen on Feb. 17, 2009 anyway.
Checking the FCC database, WILM-LD (-LD = low power digital) has a construction permit for UHF 40. So WILM-LP was already planning to start up a digital signal which I would expect was taken into consideration in choosing Wilmngton, NC as the "test" market. WILM-LP CBS 10 has a broadcast power of only 75 Watts analog on VHF 10, but WILM-LD is authorized for 7.5 kW on UHF with a much larger coverage area. So WILM has some motivation in going digital.

Falcon_77

05-09-08, 06:23 PM

· We'll be onsite at all locally sponsored events where people gather to discuss the DTV transition, and assist interested consumer in applying for the converter box coupon program.

Wow, Chairman Martin must be using the entire education budget for his home State. What a hero! :rolleyes:

All is politics...

How much of this will the rest of the country see? Not much I expect.

In any event, it sounds like they've pulled a bunch of statements from the UK Whitehaven transition. Are they going to borrow their mascot too? Last I checked, the US didn't have an organization like Digital UK. Well, I guess there is DTV Answers... ;)

narkspud

05-09-08, 07:45 PM

afiggatt

05-09-08, 09:52 PM

>>all the commercial stations in the market have already
completed construction of their DTV channels and are operating at full post-transition power.<<
NO THEY AREN'T! Whasamatta with these FCC weenies?
Which full power station or stations in the DMA are not at full DT power? According to Falcon_77's spreadsheet, WUNJ PBS 39 (DT 29), WSFX Fox 26 (DT 30) , WECT NBC 6 (DT 44), WWAY ABC 3 (DT 46) are all operating on their post-transition channel and allocation. What is interesting is that two LP stations will also switch to digital as well.

At least in the article, they stated that all four stations are currently broadcasting digitally.

Falcon_77

05-10-08, 09:18 AM

Which full power station or stations in the DMA are not at full DT power? According to Falcon_77's spreadsheet, WUNJ PBS 39 (DT 29), WSFX Fox 26 (DT 30) , WECT NBC 6 (DT 44), WWAY ABC 3 (DT 46) are all operating on their post-transition channel and allocation. What is interesting is that two LP stations will also switch to digital as well.

At least in the article, they stated that all four stations are currently broadcasting digitally.

See my notes above. WECT is moving their facilities and will be operating under an STA for a while. These notes will appear on the spreadsheet in the next update.

Falcon_77

05-10-08, 09:21 AM

WECT expressed concerns about its service area and I see that they filed a new application for a CP just yesterday for 710kW/590m vs. their current licensed facility (575/280). The application also appears to have them moving to the WSFX tower. Incidentally, WSFX is only operating at 80kW ERP.

Also, here is an exhibit for their STA of 98kW (which was granted). They won't be able to go to full power until the analog equipment is removed for WSFX and WWAY.

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=638079

Also, check out the analog 6 contour in comparison to the DTV facilities. They are losing over 40 miles of analog contour for quite a wide area.

narkspud

05-10-08, 01:41 PM

Which full power station or stations in the DMA are not at full DT power?

Where in the quote you just quoted me quoting does it say "full power station?"

WILM-DT is a commercial station, a CBS affiliate no less, and it is not on the air with digital, despite the FCC's repeated and specific statements to the contrary.

Falcon_77

05-10-08, 05:21 PM

WAFB/CBS (Baton Rouge) had their request for a non-directional antenna granted, but at a significant cost. The CP grant is only for 0.105kW. Currently, they are licensed for 316kW on analog channel 9.

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=638595

According to the prior petition denial, the reduced power seems to be needed to avoid "new" interference on WVUE/8 New Orleans and KLFY/10 (Lafayette).

All three stations are flash-cutting back to their analog channels, but the other two don't have significant ERP decreases. (19.6kW granted for KLFY and 14.6kW for KVUE).

How did WAFB end up in such a position when all three are moving back to their analog channels. Did they draw a short straw?

foxeng

05-10-08, 06:17 PM

Technically WILM's digital call sign is WILM-LD.

arxaw

05-15-08, 06:27 PM

The folks these PSAs are targeting would be better served if it were made clear to them that they can take their converter box coupons to Wal-Mart or Best Buy, get their converter boxes, hook them up now and check out their digital reception. ...Except in markets where not even the big 4 are full power digital yet.

Example: Springfield, MO. KSPR-DT (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=&call=kspr&arn=&city=&chan=&cha2=69&serv=&type=0&facid=&list=1&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&size=9) (abc) is not receivable beyond a few blocks of their short stick, 2 candle power DT transmitter, and won't be full power for some time. With no analog pass through on most boxes, when joe walmart buys a one and connects it here, he loses ABC

Falcon_77

05-15-08, 09:58 PM

Except in markets where not even the big 4 are full power digital yet.

Example: Springfield, MO. KSPR-DT (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=&call=kspr&arn=&city=&chan=&cha2=69&serv=&type=0&facid=&list=1&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&size=9) (abc) is not receivable beyond a few blocks of their short stick, 2 candle power DT transmitter, and won't be full power for some time. With no analog pass through on many boxes, when joe walmart buys a box and connects it in here, he loses ABC

Good point.

Do you think that KSPR is going to request another CP extension? It currently is due to expire on 8/18.

sebenste

05-16-08, 01:06 AM

Good point.

Do you think that KSPR is going to request another CP extension? It currently is due to expire on 8/18.

According to the DTV transition plan their engineer filed, this is what they said:

KSPR IS CURRENTLY OPERATING UNDER AN STA ALLOWING FOR DIGITAL OPERATIONS AT A REDUCED POWER LEVEL (SEE FILE NO. BEDSTA-20071205ABQ). THE COMMISSION ALSO RECENTLY GRANTED KSPR'S APPLICATION FOR AN EXTENSION OF TIME TO CONSTRUCT A DIGITAL TELEVISION BROADCAST STATION (SEE FILE NO. BEPCDT-20071205ABH) AND ITS APPLICATION FOR A MINOR MODIFICATION TO A CONSTRUCTION PERMIT TO MOVE ITS DIGITAL TOWER TO A NEW LOCATION (SEE FILE NO. BMPCDT-20071205AAU). KSPR EXPECTS ITS NEW DIGITAL TRANSMITTER TO BE DELIVERED BY MAY 1, 2008, WITH INSTALLATION AND TESTING OF THE NEW TRANSMITTER EXPECTED TO BE COMPLETE BY JUNE 1, 2008. SUBSEQUENTLY, KSPR'S NEW DIGITAL ANTENNA AND TRANSMISSION LINE IS EXPECTED TO BE DELIVERED BY JUNE 30, 2008. BECAUSE NO ALTERATIONS WILL BE NEEDED FOR KSPR'S TOWER, INSTALLATION OF THE NEW DIGITAL ANTENNA AND TRANSMISSION LINE WILL COMMENCE DIRECTLY AFTER DELIVERY. INSTALLATION OF AND TESTING ON THE NEW ANTENNA AND TRANSMISSION LINE IS EXPECTED TO BE COMPLETE BY OR BEFORE AUGUST 18, 2008. ONCE CONSTRUCTION AND TESTING OF THIS NEW DIGITAL ANTENNA IS COMPLETE KSPR'S POST-TRANSITION DIGITAL FACILITIES WILL BE FULLY CONSTRUCTED. ANALOG SERVICE WILL CONTINUE AT FULL POWER UNTIL FEBRUARY 17, 2009.

arxaw

05-16-08, 08:45 AM

Based on KSPR's past performance, I would be very surprised if they meet their 8/18/08 deadline.

Trip in VA

05-16-08, 09:49 AM

KSPR has been bought by Schurz, who is usually very good about these sorts of things. I'd expect KSPR to meet that deadline or at least come very close to meeting it.

- Trip

arxaw

05-16-08, 10:33 AM

I think all full power stations should've already been on the air before the converter/coupon promotion ever started.

People are pissed when they:
1. Drive 30 miles to Radio Shack or walmart.
2. Buy a box
3. Talk a neighbor or relative into moving the console TV or wall unit, etc. and connecting the box.
4. Get neighbor/relative to show them how to use the box.
5. Find out they can't get all the major networks in digital (after neighbor/relative leaves).
6. Wonder why the picture shrank.

Most can't figure out or don't want to mess with an a/b switch setup to get analog & digital channels.

Falcon_77

05-16-08, 11:00 AM

I think all full power stations should've already been on the air before the converter/coupon promotion ever started.

That is too late. Quite a few full power stations won't have a DTV signal until they flash-cut to digital on 2/17/09. Starting the coupon process then wouldn't work as the analog signals would be gone leaving people to scramble for boxes. Considering how long it took me to get my coupon this year (about 3 months), this would have been a big problem in '09.

However, making the coupons only valid for 90 days was a big mistake. They should be good for a year.

MikeBiker

05-16-08, 11:44 AM

I think that all the coupons should have been good until 90 days after the transition. It shouldn't matter when the coupons were requested.

Falcon_77

05-16-08, 03:15 PM

I think that all the coupons should have been good until 90 days after the transition. It shouldn't matter when the coupons were requested.

Agreed. That's better than a flat year or the 90 days we have to deal with now. With (supposedly) some of the best boxes yet to come out, I'm glad I only ordered 1 coupon in January.

foxeng

05-16-08, 04:16 PM

It has been reported that 13 million coupons have been requested and only 1 million have been sent.

Sammer

05-17-08, 12:27 AM

It has been reported that 13 million coupons have been requested and only 1 million have been sent.
First of all I want to thank you for providing a lot of good information to this thread. However it seems that on Tuesday U.S. Commerce Secretary Carlos M. Gutierrez stated “More than one million households have used coupons to purchase a certified converter box and are now able to watch digital television with a clearer picture and more programming choices." not that only 1 million coupons have been sent.

foxeng

05-17-08, 07:34 AM

According to the NTIA, more than 1.5 million coupons have been redeemed. NTIA has received more than 13 million applications. That is still a small number in the hands of consumers compared to the number in waiting. That is the point I was trying to make. If you read many of the threads here, there is a large number of people still waiting for theirs.

foxeng

05-17-08, 07:36 AM

NAB Unconvinced on Wilmington DTV Test

May 16, 2008

The National Association of Broadcasters is concerned about some potential hiccups in the Wilmington, N.C., test market triumphantly announced last week by the FCC.

In particular, NAB notes that the CBS affiliate in the market, WILM, is a low-power station with its digital transmission facilities not yet operating. NAB notes that viewers who buy digital-to-analog converter boxes before WILM goes digital will be blocked from getting this signal—unless they use the hard-to-find boxes with the analog pass-through feature.

The early (nearly complete) analog shutoff for Wilmington is set for noon on Labor Day, Sept. 8.

“We would urge the [National Telecommunications and Information Administration] to coordinate with the FCC and retailers to ensure that converter boxes with the analog pass-through feature be made available as soon as possible in that market,” NAB President David K. Rehr wrote in a letter to Acting Administrator Meredith Attwell Baker. “Boxes without the analog pass-through feature may inconvenience and confuse viewers who attempt to watch programming on a channel that may be broadcasting exclusively in analog throughout the summer.”

NAB also said NTIA is currently processing through a “backlog” of coupons, and urged Wilmington viewers to have “immediate, priority access to coupons.”

http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0015/t.13515.html

TiVoFishMan

05-17-08, 09:07 AM

Sammer

05-17-08, 11:12 AM

NAB Unconvinced on Wilmington DTV Test

NAB also said NTIA is currently processing through a “backlog” of coupons, and urged Wilmington viewers to have “immediate, priority access to coupons.”

http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0015/t.13515.html

So am I, Wilmington does look more like a PR stunt than a test. It will will also be interesting to see how many of the early coupons are allowed to expire before the end of the month because some people are unhappy with the current choices.

afiggatt

05-20-08, 09:49 PM

"GAO: Most Broadcasters Ready for DTV Transition."

See the article in the HOTP thread on the GAO report at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13910281#post13910281. I started reading the GAO report and they could have saved some time by downloading Falcon_77's spreadsheet. :D But still it does make sense for the GAO to poll the stations directly on their digital transition status.

afiggatt

05-22-08, 06:14 PM

End run - of a sorts - around the analog shutdown?

www.dcrtv.com posted the following report that WJLA ABC 7 in Washington DC is looking to lease airtime from a local LP station, WWTD-LP 49, to carry the analog signal next year. dcrtv is not the most reliable news source so WJLA may just be in talks with WWTD about this.

"7 To Lease 49 For Analog Feed After Digital Deadline - 5/21 - DCRTV hears that Channel 7/WJLA owner Allbritton will lease low-powered Channel 49/WWTD, which currently runs the "WUFO" network's science fiction-ish shows. WWTD, which broadcasts from the WRC-TV tower on Nebraska Avenue, will carry WJLA's signal, we're told. We hear that Allbritton wants to have an analog broadcast signal for DC's ABC affiliate after full-power JLA joins all other full-power stations in flipping to a digital-only signal come February 2009. Low-power stations like WWTD will remain in the analog mode. More as we hear it....."

WWTD-LP 49 is one of those oddball LP station, but does have a respectable 150 kW or 59.2 kW power depending on how you measure it. Covers the city and much of the inside the beltway area pretty well. I get WWTD-LP 49 over the air from 16 miles outside of DC with a very noisy picture, but my UHF antenna is aimed 50 degrees away at Baltimore as I get the full power DC digital stations fine in the sidelobe. WWTD-LP also has a granted CP for a digital channel on UHF 14 (currently occupied by the analog WFDC 14 Univision station which will vacate the channel next February), but only at a 100 Watts.

I have several questions about this. One, would the FCC see this as a end-run around the analog shutdown? Two, because WWTD's digital channel is different from their analog channel, could they broadcast both a digital and analog signal after next February until they are told to shut down the analog channel? Has anyone heard of other full power major network stations looking to get air time on a local LP station to keep the analog broadcast going after 02/17/09?

narkspud

05-22-08, 06:34 PM

foxeng

05-22-08, 07:06 PM

I have several questions about this. One, would the FCC see this as a end-run around the analog shutdown?

On the surface no. Stations will lease out other stations for all kinds of reasons. Happens all the time.

Two, because WWTD's digital channel is different from their analog channel, could they broadcast both a digital and analog signal after next February until they are told to shut down the analog channel?

From what I have been told, no. Once a LP applies for a LtoC, they have to shut down the analog, no matter when that happens, pre or post transition, even if the analog and digital are different channels. I think that is why you don't see a flood of LP's going digital right now.

Has anyone heard of other full power major network stations looking to get air time on a local LP station to keep the analog broadcast going after 02/17/09?

No, but I know of stations who have lost their towers buy all the air time on another station and the only time you know which station it is, is the top of the hour legal ID. It happened in 1989 when WRAL and WPTF (now WRDC) lost their towers and WRAL bought all the time on WKFT (now WUVC) and WPTF bought all of WYED's (now WNCN) air time. This went on for a year or more until the towers were rebuilt. Both stations operated as if they were still on their respective channels except for the top of the hour legal ID when they did ID the actual station they were on.

foxeng

05-22-08, 07:12 PM

That possibility occurred to me months ago, and I'm surprised that we haven't heard about this kind of thing before now. This might be a great time to have an analog Low Power in a major market. Can you imagine the bidding wars in LA?

No channels available and it takes years to get a new station, full power or LP on the air. It is cheaper and easier to just lease time on an existing station.

PA_MainyYak

05-22-08, 08:32 PM

Trip in VA

05-22-08, 09:11 PM

From what I have been told, no. Once a LP applies for a LtoC, they have to shut down the analog, no matter when that happens, pre or post transition, even if the analog and digital are different channels. I think that is why you don't see a flood of LP's going digital right now.

Depends on how they filed.

Some filed for "digital companion channels." WAHU-CA, for example, has a digital companion channel. They operate channel 27 analog and channel 40 digital simultaneously.

A lot of stations, though, filed for displacement or to flash-cut.

I looked at the license for WWTD-LP, and it has a companion channel, so it looks like they could operate their analog 49 and digital 14 at the same time. See here:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1154953&Service=LD&Form_id=346&Facility_id=168792

That says channel 38; they got a new CP for channel 14 later on, as a displacement off of that channel 38.

- Trip

afiggatt

05-22-08, 11:02 PM

That possibility occurred to me months ago, and I'm surprised that we haven't heard about this kind of thing before now. This might be a great time to have an analog Low Power in a major market. Can you imagine the bidding wars in LA?
Depends on whether there are LP stations in LA that cover much of the core population area that are strapped for cash, don't have a network affiliation (one of the Spanish language nets) with a contract that stops them from carrying another network for a time, and are on in-core channel. Also, the FCC has indicated that they plan to require all LP and TXs to go digital in 3 years after 2009. So the analog LP stations may only be around for a few months or a year after next February.

The thing is, as I see it, going digital can provide major benefits to LP stations in the more populated areas that get respectable ERPs and have the capital to take advantage of it. inside the cliff effect coverage area, instead of a noisy analog picture, they have a sharp digital picture, matching that of the major stations. They can put up multiple sub-channels, each going after a different niche (Spanish, religious, other languages). Or even offer a 720p HD sub-channel once the costs for that fall enough. I think once the converter boxes are widespread & people figure out how to hook them up, the LP stations that are still analog (well those that are not most of the local cable systems) will find themselves losing what viewers they have. There has been a rather big flap raised about why the converter boxes were not required to have RF passthrough. Go digital and be done with it.

foxeng

05-23-08, 09:11 AM

I looked at the license for WWTD-LP, and it has a companion channel, so it looks like they could operate their analog 49 and digital 14 at the same time.

All I know is what a GM of a LP said a couple of months ago that when their companion digital channel is on the air and they file for the License to Cover, they are then required to turn off the analog. The FCC will not allow them to operate analog and digital transmitters at the same time. He may not know what he is talking about. I don't know. I don't keep up with the transition of the LP's (it is hard enough to keep up with the full timers with all the changes outpouring from the FCC theses days) so I will admit I am having to go on the word of others actually involved in that part of the transition.

foxeng

05-23-08, 09:17 AM

The thing is, as I see it, going digital can provide major benefits to LP stations in the more populated areas that get respectable ERPs and have the capital to take advantage of it.

While that is all true, the vast majority don't see it that way. They can't get past the fact that most CECB's don't have analog pass through and until they see past that, LP's will wallow around crying their same ole song of "Poor, Poor Pitiful Me," "we are the red-headed step children of the full power stations," "we dont' have the money," "we don't have the audience," "we don't have..." (fill in the blank).

narkspud

05-23-08, 11:48 AM

We have KJLA Ventura CA channel 57, which runs a satellite on KSMV-LP Los Angeles Channel 33. Here in central OC, we get their main digital loud and clear, and the satellite loud and clear, but the main analog is so nonexistent that the FCC stuck a totally different LP on the same channel (K55KD Oxnard, bumped from its original assignment).

I can't think of any reason for KSMV-LP to go digital, and so far as I can tell, they have not attempted to.

GeorgeLV

05-23-08, 04:33 PM

In my home market of Las Vegas, UHF "low power" stations at the 150kW limit easily cover the entire market and put out a clearer (on indoor antennas) analog picture than the full power NBC and Fox stations on low-VHF.

narkspud

05-23-08, 08:15 PM

With KJLA, it's not a question of power level or distance, it's a question of where the main transmitter is and what's in its way.

Desert Hawk

05-23-08, 09:17 PM

KVPT PBS Fresno operates both analog and digital low power translator stations in Bakersfield. Analog is channel 34. Picture quality sucks. Digital is physical and virtual channel 18 (same as their analog channel in Fresno). Picture quality is great. 1 HD and 2 SD subchannels. I wonder if they are going to shut off the analog translator next February.

Most LP stations had great hopes that many people would not bother buying converters for or replacing many of their analog tvs, and therefore the lp stations would gain huge new audiences next February. They are starting to realize that this hope is in vain. I think the vast majority of LPs will switch to digital long before the FCC forces them to. If they don't then almost nobody will be watching them.

arxaw

05-23-08, 09:35 PM

... I think the vast majority of LPs will switch to digital long before the FCC forces them to. If they don't then almost nobody will be watching them.Almost nobody does now. No big loss to most viewers.

Trip in VA

05-23-08, 09:53 PM

All I know is what a GM of a LP said a couple of months ago that when their companion digital channel is on the air and they file for the License to Cover, they are then required to turn off the analog.

I'm assuming you're referring to WGSR-LP? They filed their digital paperwork as a displacement, not as a companion channel.

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1223079&Service=LD&Form_id=346&Facility_id=12834

For those who are unfamiliar, they argued that their current assignment on channel 39 would receive interference from another station, and filed to use a different frequency for their digital (channel 47).

- Trip

GeorgeLV

05-23-08, 10:47 PM

Almost nobody does now. No big loss to most viewers.

You clearly don't like in a bilingual market. Not all low power stations are religious or independents on a shoestring budget. There are many low power stations with the resources and viewership (and cable carriage) to compete on equal footing with full power stations.

Trip in VA

05-24-08, 12:45 AM

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-08-1185A1.pdf

That document shows that KRCA-DT has had its final channel changed from 45 to 35. Mexican coordination issues suck.

- Trip

Falcon_77

05-24-08, 09:19 AM

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-08-1185A1.pdf

That document shows that KRCA-DT has had its final channel changed from 45 to 35. Mexican coordination issues suck.

I wonder what is happening with KESQ. They were having some serious Mexican coordination problems as well.

With KRCA on 35 and if KTBN gets 33, we would have a solid block of channels from 31 to 36, locally. Even with KRCA moving to 35, there will be a solid block from 41-44.

KMEX currently has their DTV operations on 35 and will be moving back to 34 for post-transition operations. If KRCA can re-use some of the KMEX/35 equipment, I'm sure it would be a greatly improved situation. Hopefully, Mexico won't make them jump through hoops to re-use this channel.

The LA DMA has 5 current 16 DTV channels at 60 and above, including the only DTV stations on 60 and 68.

By contrast, many of the teens are encumbered with Land Mobile allocations. If those can ever be freed, I think we will be needing them... assuming Mexican coordination can ever be obtained.

I am a bit perplexed that KSCI and KUSI will be sharing channel 18 for post-transition operations. Normally LA and San Diego full power stations can't share the same channel, though I don't see any interference on analog KSCI 18. Still, it would be nice to have a chance to DX KUSI.

arxaw

05-24-08, 09:31 AM

You clearly don't like in a bilingual market..."Like" in a bilingual market? If you mean "live" in a bilingual market, you obviously know nothing about where I live.

Falcon_77

05-24-08, 10:22 AM

I'm also trying to figure out what is happening with KFTR in the LA area. They have received an extension for their DTV 47 CP, but KAZA is already operating on 47 and will be there for post-transition as well.

KFTR has a strong signal on 29, with whatever power they are actually using, so I don't know why they wouldn't just stay there. The SNR for this channel is the highest that I have (up to 34dB at times). If they are still running their 150kW STA on 29, I have to believe this is a good channel to keep.

Trip in VA

05-24-08, 10:52 AM

KFTR is planning to stay on 29, they're STILL waiting on Mexican coordination after all these years.

- Trip

afiggatt

05-24-08, 11:03 AM

Trip's posting of the KRCA-DT change made me take a look at recent station filings with the FCC asking for last minute changes in their digital channel assignment. There is a interesting long pleading from KTLM 40, a Spanish language station located in SW TX near the Mexican border. They state they can not build the Appendix B facility on UHF 20, so they want to operate on UHF 40 from the current tower. See http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6519994937. They also claim that they did not know they could have saved money by opting for a digital flash cut of their current analog facility(!). However, the station is one of the border stations that want to retain their analog broadcast: "Sunbelt is a strong supporter of HR 5435, legislation known as the DTV Border Fix Act, which is currently pending in Congress." Ok, so Mexico does not have a Emergency Broadcast System, so that justifies a border station staying in analog? Are radios that hard to come by?

Desert Hawk

05-24-08, 07:42 PM

I thought a full power channel 45 in LA would be too close to Bakersfield. Bakersfield has KUVI analog 45 current digital 55 moving to 45 post transition. The signals might clash in the Lancaster/Palmdale/Rosamond/Mojave area.

Trip in VA

05-24-08, 07:55 PM

KTBN-DT wants channel 33, which is also used in Bakersfield. They have channel 23, but it has problems with KVMD-DT. Wonder if anything will come of that.

- Trip

foxeng

05-25-08, 09:18 AM

I'm assuming you're referring to WGSR-LP?

No. I don't know Matt. Never have talked to him.

foxeng

05-25-08, 09:24 AM

I wonder what is happening with KESQ. They were having some serious Mexican coordination problems as well.

With KRCA on 35 and if KTBN gets 33, we would have a solid block of channels from 31 to 36, locally. Even with KRCA moving to 35, there will be a solid block from 41-44.

KMEX currently has their DTV operations on 35 and will be moving back to 34 for post-transition operations. If KRCA can re-use some of the KMEX/35 equipment, I'm sure it would be a greatly improved situation. Hopefully, Mexico won't make them jump through hoops to re-use this channel.

The LA DMA has 5 current 16 DTV channels at 60 and above, including the only DTV stations on 60 and 68.

By contrast, many of the teens are encumbered with Land Mobile allocations. If those can ever be freed, I think we will be needing them... assuming Mexican coordination can ever be obtained.

I am a bit perplexed that KSCI and KUSI will be sharing channel 18 for post-transition operations. Normally LA and San Diego full power stations can't share the same channel, though I don't see any interference on analog KSCI 18. Still, it would be nice to have a chance to DX KUSI.

A month or so back I was reading some stuff about this and while I wasn't digesting every little tidbit, if I remember correctly, since KMEX has some Mexican clearance, it wasn't enough and that is why they are moving, while KRCA is further away and had some Mexican clearance issues but when they move to KMEX's old channel, there is enough clearance to make it work. It is much more complicated than that, but in a nutshell that is it. I don't know all of the details to go beyond this.

afiggatt

05-27-08, 09:16 AM

Digging through some more Proceeding 87-268 filings and petitions to the FCC, came across the following posted in April & May:

WHNS-DT Fox 21 in Greenville, VA wants a ERP of 496 kW and 744 m HAAT instead of 160 kW: http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6519894631.
WUFX-DT MyN 35: if the commission can not provide the UHF 41 allotment they want, the station wants to flash cut to UHF 35 instead: http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6519998755.
Long petition from Univision for changes to Teleflura affiliates WOFT-DT 43 in Melborne, FL and WFUT-DT 68 in Newark, NJ at http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6519998857.

NPR wants the FCC to revisit the decision to keep channels 5 & 6 for TV: http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6519894593. Strikes me as a bit late to ask for this now.
ABC/Disney, owners of WPVI-DT ABC 6 in Philly states their opposition to this with some history of how WPVI-DT ended up with a post assignment of VHF 6: http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6520010496.

Falcon_77

05-27-08, 11:32 AM

NPR wants the FCC to revisit the decision to keep channels 5 & 6 for TV: http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6519894593. Strikes me as a bit late to ask for this now.
ABC/Disney, owners of WPVI-DT ABC 6 in Philly states their opposition to this with some history of how WPVI-DT ended up with a post assignment of VHF 6: http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6520010496.

I'm sure they will have to revisit this after the transition. It too late to throw this on the 24 stations that will be on 5 and 6 now.

WPVI indicated they performed testing that DTV operations on 6 "could be technically feasible." Time will tell how well their testing predicts actual results.

If Land Mobile doesn't vacate the lower UHF channels, it will be difficult to find enough space in the more congested parts of the country. I find it ironic that Land Mobile allocations are assigned in areas that are in most need of additional channels.

Desert Hawk

05-28-08, 02:08 AM

Why doesn't KTBN just use channel 40 (their current analog channel) post transition? If they are going to move from 23 to 33, why not just move to 40? Is someone else going to use RF 40 in the LA market?

Trip in VA

05-28-08, 07:12 AM

mgpt6

05-29-08, 12:39 PM

In full agreement with NPR. 60 new FM channels. Class 3 and 4 AM can be full time Class A FMs. more non-comm and LPFM. Everyone knows that low VHF stinks for Digital TV.

Falcon_77

05-29-08, 04:02 PM

In full agreement with NPR. 60 new FM channels. Class 3 and 4 AM can be full time Class A FMs. more non-comm and LPFM. Everyone knows that low VHF stinks for Digital TV.

I agree with it as well, but we might have to wait for the next round at this point.

Having TV stations below FM stations just doesn't seem practical. FM handles the Low-VHF range quite a bit better. (e.g. we don't need to drive around with 10' boom antennas on top of our cars) However, FM digital on 5 and 6 would have some of the same problems as DTV, would it not?

What's probably going to make or break 2-6 for TV in the long run is how the LP stations survive or perish on it. I don't think 40 full power TV stations is enough to justify continued use of this band, though we'll see what happens after the transition.

Trip in VA

05-29-08, 10:08 PM

I think the FCC will move to eliminate channel 4 first, if not 2-4, and leave 5 and 6 in place. Channel 2, especially, is very bad with regard to e-skip and 2-4 have been obliterated by signals from the midwest here several times in the last week. This will continue ALL SUMMER. The stations on those channels simply will not be viewable. I imagine many will move off on their own.

That's without mentioning the problems with electrical noise. LP stations on those frequencies will be useless.

On a somewhat unrelated note, the FCC needs to allow LP stations on channels 7-13 to go up to 1 kW even, instead of capping them at 0.3 kW like the low-VHFs.

- Trip

N5XZS

05-30-08, 01:02 AM

Trip,

E-Skip can go high as 215 MHz, and beside we do get alot of FM E-Skip up to 108 MHz which is very common.

What I proposed would be a better way to do it by allocating, 76 to 88 MHz for super high power digital or analog FM radio for long ranges coverages.:)

As for 54 to 76 MHz could be use for narrow band digital video, at 480i or p using MPEG-4 codecs with Narrow QSPK or COFDEM or some new modulations format at least 1 MHz bandwidths or less for long range transmission.:)

If not why not allocated, for a new ham radio band or allocated for new hobby one and two way broadcast band and run at a least 25 watts PEP with license by rule.:cool:

You just never know what the band plan will go in the future!:D

5-29-8

Trip in VA

05-30-08, 07:09 AM

E-Skip can go high as 215 MHz, and beside we do get alot of FM E-Skip up to 108 MHz which is very common.

I'm aware, but it's very uncommon, to the point where I personally have never seen skip get above 102 MHz. 80% of the time it never gets above channel 4, or at least I don't see anything on channel 5.

Yesterday there was some skip but I didn't bother with it; NBC on 2 and 3 and ABC on 4 screamed "Kansas" at me and I've seen Kansas so many times that it just doesn't interest me that much. :D

(Stations in question, if you're wondering, KSNC-2, KSNW-3, KLBY-4)

I personally would like to see 54-88 MHz used for FM audio. Specifically, I'd like to see a band to which to relocate AM radio stations, perhaps in an all-digital mode. I made up a bandplan at one time, specifically I had reserved 54-72 for AM relocation, then 76-88 was broken up for other purposes. 87.5-87.9 was reserved for FM modulators, like to plug into MP3 players. 87.1 and 87.3 would be reserved for Class D stations that are otherwise getting bumped all over the band. They could move to those frequencies at their present power and reclassify as Class A (thus gaining protection). Then 84-87 would be reserved for an expanded non-commercial band (currently 88-92) and stations would be granted in such a way to reduce stations presently in 88-92. For example, in my area, "Spirit FM" would be granted a C-class signal in that band on the condition that they break up and sell or silence their network of stations in 88-92 in places where the C-class station covers. 76-84 would initially be reserved for short-spaced FM stations to relocate to, then for spillover from the AM move, then finally freed up for local radio stations.

- Trip

HIPAR

05-30-08, 02:03 PM

OK, it's 2011 and the FCC revisits the allocation of TV VHF Low and does decide it will be used for FM broadcasting. Where does WPVI (Philadelphia) go. Does Disney, with it's deep pockets, buy out another station for it's channel assignment?

I lived across the river in Cherry Hill NJ for 35 years and watched WPVI (6) with a telescoping whip antenna every day. I always received a clear noise free picture and only occasionally saw interference from 'band openings'. I never had problems with FM broadcasting stations on channel six.

And, let's say the jury is out until next year on this impulse noise thing.

--- CHAS

foxeng

05-30-08, 02:27 PM

And, let's say the jury is out until next year on this impulse noise thing.

The jury has already come back. Guilty as charged.

dline

05-30-08, 03:06 PM

More from Wilmington, NC:

Today the FCC announced (http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-282555A1.pdf) that it will mark "100 Days to Digital" in Wilmington by sending FCC staff members to several area retailers on Saturday.

"At the store locations listed below customers can experience first-hand the enhanced audio and picture quality from digital television and sign up for government-issued coupons at special digital television (DTV) tables," the FCC announced in the above-linked press release. A local Best Buy, Radio Shack and Circuit City are participating.

(For those just tuning in, Wilmington's ABC, CBS, Fox, NBC and Trinity Broadcasting stations have agreed to shut off their analogs at noon on Sept. 8, as an early test before analog shuts down nationwide. The PBS station declined to participate.)

narkspud

05-30-08, 05:44 PM

"Hey Mr. FCC Commissioner, what's that strange whistling sound coming from the left speaker?"
:D

Trip in VA

05-30-08, 06:32 PM

OK, it's 2011 and the FCC revisits the allocation of TV VHF Low and does decide it will be used for FM broadcasting. Where does WPVI (Philadelphia) go. Does Disney, with it's deep pockets, buy out another station for it's channel assignment?

Probably the FCC forces them in on channel 48 or 50, despite the short-spacing to WWSI-DT in Atlantic City. Moving WWSI-DT to 10 would resolve that problem entirely (and the cost savings of the power would likely make WWSI want to move) and open up both frequencies for allocations in Philadelphia.

I lived across the river in Cherry Hill NJ for 35 years and watched WPVI (6) with a telescoping whip antenna every day. I always received a clear noise free picture and only occasionally saw interference from 'band openings'. I never had problems with FM broadcasting stations on channel six.

And, let's say the jury is out until next year on this impulse noise thing.

--- CHAS

No, the jury's in. You can come visit my area and try to watch PBS digitally and tell me how low-VHF is. Ask anyone in Chicago who wants CBS to tell you how low-VHF is. The jury's been in for years.

Turn on a vacuum cleaner and watch the signal vanish as electrical noise trashes the signal. Try to watch during the summer as e-skip from stations 1000 miles away destroys your local signal.

These are not theoretical problems, I'm experiencing them RIGHT NOW. Countless others in other markets are experiencing them RIGHT NOW. ABC cheaped out and refused to make a deal for a UHF channel (which they easily could have gotten if they really wanted it) and next year, their OTA viewers will pay for that decision.

- Trip

arxaw

05-30-08, 07:50 PM

Come to Arkansas and try to watch PBS on ch 5. Impossible without audio/video dropouts that make it too annoying to watch. Don't run the dishwasher, flip a light switch or let the icemaker run. And don't watch during regional lightning events (doesn't even have to be close by), or you'll miss half the dialog. This is even a problem on high VHF, at least it is on chs 9 & 12.

And then there's the antenna. You need a big honkin' low VHF-er to pick up the tainted signals. UHF only requires a small antenna. The FCC should try to make OTA reception easier with a simple antenna, not complicated.

dline

05-30-08, 08:29 PM

Ah, that post brings back fond memories of trying to tune in my hometown's channel 5 (analog, of course) with a Radio Shack TRS-80 running in the room. Now that was fun! Thankfully I won't have that obstacle to deal with anymore!

(Maybe I shouldn't have said that -- that reference kind of dates me a little.:D)

HIPAR

05-30-08, 09:26 PM

The jury has already come back. Guilty as charged.... et al.

Gosh, maybe they should allow VHF Low Band TV stations to continue sending good ole reliable NTSC.

--- CHAS

HIPAR

05-30-08, 10:09 PM

... And then there's the antenna. You need a big honkin' low VHF-er to pick up the tainted signals. UHF only requires a small antenna. The FCC should try to make OTA reception easier with a simple antenna, not complicated.

The resonant parts of a UHF antenna are smaller; most common antennas being based on a half wave dipole. But, the amount of power extracted from the wavefront depends more on the physical size (related to effective aperture) of the antenna. If all things are equal at the transmitting end of the circuit in terms of ERP, a resonant dipole receiving a 200 MHz signal delivers more power at its feed point than a resonate dipole receiving a 400 MHz signal.

If you want to increase frequency to use smaller receiving antennas, you need bigger transmitting antennas, more transmitter power or combination thereof.

Just a first order analysis.

--- CHAS

foxeng

05-31-08, 08:16 AM

Gosh, maybe they should allow VHF Low Band TV stations to continue sending good ole reliable NTSC.

--- CHAS

:rolleyes:

foxeng

05-31-08, 08:26 AM

The resonant parts of a UHF antenna are smaller; most common antennas being based on a half wave dipole. But, the amount of power extracted from the wavefront depends more on the physical size (related to effective aperture) of the antenna. If all things are equal at the transmitting end of the circuit in terms of ERP, a resonant dipole receiving a 200 MHz signal delivers more power at its feed point than a resonate dipole receiving a 400 MHz signal.

If you want to increase frequency to use smaller receiving antennas, you need bigger transmitting antennas, more transmitter power or combination thereof.

Just a first order analysis.

--- CHAS

While that is true to a point, you have COMPLETELY ignored the fact that digital is received as an AM signal and therefore has ALL of the characteristics of your AM broadcast radio when it comes to noise no matter what the frequency. Even analog TV, which the visual career is AM, (the aural is FM and due to its nature is mostly impervious to impulse noise which is why it was used instead of AM) has the same issues in the same frequency band. The frequency range of 54-88 MHz, which is subject to known tropospheric ducting, as well as within the range of harmonics of electrical impulses, natural and manmade, causes reception issues of both analog and digital television. That is documented fact all the way back to the early 1950's when television first started populating the spectrum. This is not something new. It also wasn't anticipated that the impulse would cause the issues it does with digital in the 54-88 MHz range until digital stations started to populate the region.

Now, you can rationalize it all you want, but those are the facts.

Falcon_77

05-31-08, 09:33 AM

OK, it's 2011 and the FCC revisits the allocation of TV VHF Low and does decide it will be used for FM broadcasting. Where does WPVI (Philadelphia) go. Does Disney, with it's deep pockets, buy out another station for it's channel assignment?

By then, perhaps land Mobile assignments could have been moved. Philadelphia has 19 and 20 assigned to Land Mobile. However, I don't really expect WPVI to wait that long.

What is on 15 & 16, locally? I see WFDC in DC on 15, but it's about 125 miles away. I wouldn't be surprised to see them on 48 or 50 as Trip has suggested, even though WRC and WDCW are also ~125 miles away.

Is there any reason WDCW needs to Flash-Cut back to 50 vs. staying on 51 for DTV? Perhaps they are concerned what will be on the former 52? The DTV License for 51 is non-directional with the same height and same location with about the same ERP (125kW vs. 122kW).

Back to my comments on Land Mobile, I just don't see enough space in the spectrum to retain those channel assignments. Allocating some channels in the 14-20 range where they are most needed doesn't seem viable in the long run. Wasn't one of the purposes of the 52-69 auction to provide new channels for public safety? What else can use Land Mobile assignments right now?

HIPAR

05-31-08, 09:54 AM

... Now, you can rationalize it all you want, but those are the facts.

Please note that my comment on antenna size you cited was just that, a short statement regarding antenna requirements for for a communications link. There purposely was no attempt to expound upon other practical matters, such as propagation losses, noise, modulation or waveform design, that establish the overall performance of that link.

I won't even attempt to 'rationalize' anything you said about problems associated with low VHF TV band; especially in light of the statements from you and those others with their own practical experiences in that matter.

--- CHAS

Trip in VA

05-31-08, 10:34 AM

By then, perhaps land Mobile assignments could have been moved. Philadelphia has 19 and 20 assigned to Land Mobile. However, I don't really expect WPVI to wait that long.

What is on 15 & 16, locally? I see WFDC in DC on 15, but it's about 125 miles away. I wouldn't be surprised to see them on 48 or 50 as Trip has suggested, even though WRC and WDCW are also ~125 miles away.

Is there any reason WDCW needs to Flash-Cut back to 50 vs. staying on 51 for DTV? Perhaps they are concerned what will be on the former 52? The DTV License for 51 is non-directional with the same height and same location with about the same ERP (125kW vs. 122kW).

Back to my comments on Land Mobile, I just don't see enough space in the spectrum to retain those channel assignments. Allocating some channels in the 14-20 range where they are most needed doesn't seem viable in the long run. Wasn't one of the purposes of the 52-69 auction to provide new channels for public safety? What else can use Land Mobile assignments right now?

Honestly I don't know that the FCC will move the land mobile assignments. It probably would cost a lot of money to replace all the equipment that uses those frequencies, assuming they're still in use. Maybe as equipment gets routinely replaced they'll move up to the former channels 60-69, but there's really no way to know.

Just in the last few years, New York had channel 16 ADDED as another land mobile frequency, which likely rules out 14, 15, and 16 due to Philly being too close to New York. My guess would be that 19 and 20 are just as populated. 17 has WPHL, and 18 is too close to both WMBC-DT in north Jersey and the land mobile in DC.

48 and 50 are far enough away. The FCC's minimum spacing requirement for UHF in Zone I is 122 miles if the stations are on the same channel. The only problem with those channels is WWSI-DT on 49, which fails the adjacent channel test (it is further than 14 and less than 68 miles from a proposed 48 or 50 in Philly). I'm sure if WPVI had pushed for it, the FCC would have given them 48 or 50 regardless of that problem during the channel elections.

Not sure why WDCW chose to go back to 50. My only guess is the same condition that you've already suggested, that they're concerned about interference from whatever will be on channel 52 in the future. Also, I imagine their power is the same to stay within the FCC's Appendix B limit on coverage. I wouldn't be surprised to see an application for more power in August.

And to HIPAR, I apologize if myself and others here came across like attack dogs or something like that; it's not our intention I assure you. I'm sure you've had great experience with channel 6 on analog--most people have probably had good experience with it on analog. The biggest differences are that:

1. Digital is operating at less than 1/10 the power of the analog on the same frequency. You currently see WPVI analog with 100 kW on channel 6, but after the transition, their digital signal will only be 7.65 kW. I'm sure just reducing to 1/10 power on analog would deteriorate your reception greatly by itself, but that doesn't even factor in the added problem that...

2. Digital is less resistant to noise/interference than analog. When I look at analog stations on 2, 4, and 5 by me, I see them filled with patterns of dots and lines, which change as devices in the house are turned on and off. It's perfectly watchable and usable with analog, but with digital that noise obviously would corrupt the flow of bits and cause lots of problems.

I honestly don't know how much of my problem where I live is weak signal (2.3 kW isn't a whole lot) versus interference from local noise sources. I'm going to be trying to address the signal part of that with a larger antenna in the near future more likely, but if the problem is with local noise sources, there's little that can really be done about it, especially in the homes of people who aren't as into the whole "signal" thing as I am.

- Trip

PA_MainyYak

05-31-08, 10:37 AM

foxeng

05-31-08, 12:55 PM

Please note that my comment on antenna size you cited was just that, a short statement regarding antenna requirements for for a communications link. There purposely was no attempt to expound upon other practical matters, such as propagation losses, noise, modulation or waveform design, that establish the overall performance of that link.

My comments had nothing to do your your antenna comments but your comments that "the jury was still out" on VHF LO.

It is true that if you have enough signal strength, it will overcome any noise issue you have, no matter what the mode or frequency. A majority of viewers through the years have complained about the propagation issues and impulse noise in VHF Lo. Most impulse noise that interferes with either analog or digital is concentrated at the reception source, such as vacuum cleaners, arcing power lines, close by lightning strikes and car electrical systems as cars drive by. The amount of signal required to overcome those the majority of the time are more than stations can put out without causing everyone to glow in the dark.

Most engineers in the early days of digital thought that the digital signal would be robust enough to handle these impulse noises. As stations came on the air it became evident, fairly quickly, that VHF LO would be a show stopper with impulse noise. There are some engineers who today think that a channel 5 or 6 with enough power, could possibly survive as a digital station. But most now do not. And that is based on tests that are no more scientific than putting up an antenna on an ATSC production receiver and receiving a VHF Lo signal and then turning on a vacuum cleaner or a starting a car with a bad electrical system.

That was the point I was trying to make.

foxeng

05-31-08, 01:06 PM

I'm just a dumb old country boy, so maybe this is a painfully stupid questions, but here goes. Would low-VHF be technically feasible for land mobile use? My understanding is land mobile is generally FM and so would not be as subject to the impulse issues discussed earlier. Perhaps move land mobile to 2-4 and work toward Trip's notion of using 5 and 6 for expanded FM services.

Good question and one I would bet most people here have no idea either.

Land mobile started out on VHF Lo and still has frequencies in the 30-50 MHz spectrum. They suffer from the same propagation issues that TV does from 54-88 MHz (no impulse noise issues because they are FM not AM) and hence why they moved up to the 150-174 Mhz and when they filled up then on to 450-470 and when they filled up to 800 MHz. This was all pre-cellular which has reduced the crowding to the point that many of these frequencies are now unused and could be repurposed for other things. But the wireless people don't want them because the antennas are too big for true portable work as they are quite short in the 700 MHz + range. The nominal 1/4 wave antenna for 50 MHz is 6 ft long. For 150 MHz is 2 ft. For 450 MHz is 6 inches and at 800 MHz, where most wireless stuff is today, it is 2 inches. This is why the wireless people wanted channels 52-69 and not 2-13. Size of the equipment.

So the question becomes, who wants the frequencies? Wireless doesn't. FM is the only one so far who has stepped up to ask. The digital white space requests have all so far been UHF only. They don't want the VHF frequencies either due to antenna size or more coverage area than they want to provide or propagation issues. It all deals with money or the money making potential.

N5XZS

05-31-08, 01:08 PM

How about using FM digital modes, to cut down impulse noise floor on VHF low band?:D

Of course it might be too late, to try this mode but on the other hand someone can file to the FCC for a experiment transmission mode!

If you are going to use 8-VSB mode then just crank up more power at least 100 KW ERP provided there are few stations to interfered with.:)

5-31-08

HIPAR

05-31-08, 02:44 PM

How about using FM digital modes, to cut down impulse noise floor on VHF low band?:D

I believe there would be a problem sending 19 megabits in a 6 MHz channel using FM or phase modulations. AM generates lots of signal components that carry redundant intelligence. These can be filtered away to reduce bandwidth .. I'm 100% sure you know that :)

8VSB carries the process to extreme and that's probably why the waveform is so fragile.

http://www.broadcast.net/~sbe1/8vsb/8vsb.htm

Elimination of signal spectral components generated during FM modulation is a difficult (impossible?) proposition.

--- CHAS

Falcon_77

06-01-08, 02:13 AM

FCC Lifts Maximization Application Freeze

http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0015/t.13764.html

...just when I thought I was caught up with the CP filings. So, we don't have to wait until August now? I think this is a good move.

Also, here is a link to the FCC notice of such:

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-08-1213A1.pdf

Trip in VA

06-01-08, 08:59 AM

Falcon_77, what an unexpected and very pleasant surprise!

I can't wait to see what kind of changes arrive. I imagine a bunch of the facilities that left us like "HUH?" will go away and be replaced by a maximized facility. I also expect to see a lot of VHF stations maximize their facilities.

Some stations that I specifically remember stating they'd be maximizing are WYBE and WCAU in Philly and WNCN in Raleigh. There were a lot of others but they all run together; I remember those mainly because they interest me so much.

Do you think the FCC will begin accepting channel change applications? I know KMBC in Kansas City wanted channel 29 and was denied only because they were too late in filing...

- Trip

Falcon_77

06-01-08, 10:38 AM

Do you think the FCC will begin accepting channel change applications? I know KMBC in Kansas City wanted channel 29 and was denied only because they were too late in filing...

Yes, that is part of it:

We believe that the public interest is also served by lifting the freeze on the filing of petitions for rulemaking to allow requests for channel substitutions to the DTV Table at the same time.5 We will not, at this time, accept petitions for allotment of DTV channels for new stations, or for changes in community of license.

I wonder how many channel change applications we will see?

I had been tracking the number of stations that had requested a filing freeze waiver up to 5 miles. There are at least 42 of them, but there are probably quite a few more as I didn't add these notes until relatively recently.

Hopefully, we will at least see more replication of the analog coverage areas, rather than the Appendix B coverage area, which too often specified a directional pattern. Did they just assume keeping side mounts on most towers?

KCWX didn't want to be on 5. Two other stations (KTBC and KLRN) didn't want them on 8, so I will be curious to see what they end up doing.

Trip in VA

06-01-08, 10:46 AM

KCWX might end up trying to change their COL and moving in to San Antonio on a UHF. That would probably be their best option, as channel 8 simply will not work.

EDIT: Actually, if they could operate from the KMYS tower, they wouldn't even have to change their COL it looks like.

There's a couple of really questionable channel choices I've seen and I wonder if we'll see any changes come about now that the freeze is lifted.

Oh yeah, Falcon, if you get some free time, send me a PM, I'd like to ask a favor of you if you're not too busy with things.

- Trip

afiggatt

06-01-08, 11:58 AM

Do you think the FCC will begin accepting channel change applications? I know KMBC in Kansas City wanted channel 29 and was denied only because they were too late in filing...
Interesting that one of the reasons that KMBC-DT ABC 9 gives for wanting to move to UHF 29 instead of a flash cut to VHF 9 is that they will be the only VHF station left in the market. KMBC-DT has a flash cut allotment of a healthy 85 kW for VHF 9 which is more power than almost all of the other 316 kW (analog) upper VHF stations are currently getting that are going back to upper VHF. Are there any other stations that asked to move to UHF because they would be or have been the only VHF station left in the market? I hope that the news coverage on the transition in Kansas City point out the importance of checking the analog UHF reception or getting a better UHF antenna; I've seen almost no mainstream press articles that point out that most low VHF stations are now actually on UHF.

I did find this paragraph in the FCC announcement a bit amusing: "We also take this opportunity to clarify the exact time of day for expiration of post-transition construction permits. The CDBS automated filing system has issued post-transition DTV construction permits with an expiration of February 17, 2009 at 3:00 a.m. local time. We hereby extend the expiration of all of these permits to February 17, 2009, 11:59:59 p.m. local time." Yep, they now have until the 59th second to switch.

How did they get locked into doing the great switchover at midnight - right in the middle of Nightline, Leno & Letterman? I think it would make more sense for the stations that are doing a flash cut or changing their digital channel to do it at high noon or the middle of the afternoon when there are fewer viewers. Then people can start their evening viewing by performing a digital channel scan. Or do it at 4 AM local time. (It will probably be an all nighter for many station engineers anyway).

Trip in VA

06-01-08, 01:28 PM

Interesting that one of the reasons that KMBC-DT ABC 9 gives for wanting to move to UHF 29 instead of a flash cut to VHF 9 is that they will be the only VHF station left in the market. KMBC-DT has a flash cut allotment of a healthy 85 kW for VHF 9 which is more power than almost all of the other 316 kW (analog) upper VHF stations are currently getting that are going back to upper VHF. Are there any other stations that asked to move to UHF because they would be or have been the only VHF station left in the market? I hope that the news coverage on the transition in Kansas City point out the importance of checking the analog UHF reception or getting a better UHF antenna; I've seen almost no mainstream press articles that point out that most low VHF stations are now actually on UHF.

And yet even with all that power, they still get tons of complaints that people cannot receive their signal.

Actually, check it, they don't have a CP on channel 9. They filed an STA back in April that I must have missed to operate on channel 29. See the filing here:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1240839&Service=DS&Form_id=911&Facility_id=65686

The PDF in the filing is 61 pages. It claims on page 1 that they will file to substitute channel 29 for 9 as soon as the freeze is lifted. Given that it was lifted early, I fully expect to see this one filed very soon.

- Trip

Sammer

06-01-08, 02:30 PM

Good question and one I would bet most people here have no idea either.

Land mobile started out on VHF Lo and still has frequencies in the 30-50 MHz spectrum. They suffer from the same propagation issues that TV does from 54-88 MHz (no impulse noise issues because they are FM not AM) and hence why they moved up to the 150-174 Mhz and when they filled up then on to 450-470 and when they filled up to 800 MHz. This was all pre-cellular which has reduced the crowding to the point that many of these frequencies are now unused and could be repurposed for other things. But the wireless people don't want them because the antennas are too big for true portable work as they are quite short in the 700 MHz + range. The nominal 1/4 wave antenna for 50 MHz is 6 ft long. For 150 MHz is 2 ft. For 450 MHz is 6 inches and at 800 MHz, where most wireless stuff is today, it is 2 inches. This is why the wireless people wanted channels 52-69 and not 2-13. Size of the equipment.

So the question becomes, who wants the frequencies? Wireless doesn't. FM is the only one so far who has stepped up to ask. The digital white space requests have all so far been UHF only. They don't want the VHF frequencies either due to antenna size or more coverage area than they want to provide or propagation issues. It all deals with money or the money making potential.

Obviously FM Radio wants Channel 6 (and probably 5) and yes the Land Mobile between Channels 14 and 20 (in only 13 major metropolitan areas and only one uses as many as three channels) should be moved. Pittsburgh is one of those areas and most people think Land Mobile stinks in the area. The State Police can't even contact local police over their radios, they have to go through a dispatcher.

dline

06-01-08, 03:41 PM

afiggatt

06-01-08, 04:26 PM

:DActually, check it, they don't have a CP on channel 9. They filed an STA back in April that I must have missed to operate on channel 29. See the filing here:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1240839&Service=DS&Form_id=911&Facility_id=65686

The PDF in the filing is 61 pages.
The attached PDF is an interesting read. I like the insert of the Peter Putnam article on the upcoming switch for digital channels. In it, he states "I tested a couple of these at Chicago’s O-Hare Airport earlier this year and was pleasantly surprised with the results as I was able to pull in all of the local UHF digitals plus WBBM-DT on VHF-3 (one of the dumbest frequency assignments the FCC has ever made)." Yep, in your filing to the FCC staff include an article that slams the FCC staff for a digital channel assignment. :D

The copied emails to the stations from viewers who can't get KMBC-DT on VHF 7 are interesting. Sounds like a lot of people went out and brought a UHF only antenna for digital reception, thinking that all digital stations are on UHF. We've seen these posts even here on avsforum many times from people who think that all digital TV broadcasts are on UHF and will stay there. If this mis-conception remains widespread, it will only add to the confusion about the digital transition.

Falcon_77 has a list in his spreadsheet of the DMAs with only 1 post-trans full power VHF station. Not as big a deal in the more crowded east coast where many people get stations from multiple DMAs so there may be other VHF stations they need to pickup. But in the mid-west and the mountain west, where most people may be able to get only one market OTA (excluding those with the hardcore deep fringe setups), being the only upper VHF station - or especially low VHF - could be a problem. It is an interesting question whether the FCC should have taken into consideration - in coordination with the stations in the market - that if only 1 station in the market was opting for VHF, that the station should be prodded to go UHF instead to consolidate the frequency bands in use. Or see if the station could move to VHF 11 to 13 as many UHF antennas will do ok for the upper end of upper VHF. If you are the only VHF station in your market and you are on VHF 7 to 10, would you think about moving to UHF or VHF 11 to 13 if you could (and had not already brought expensive gear for your post-trans assignment)?

Falcon_77

06-01-08, 10:02 PM

:D
The attached PDF is an interesting read. I like the insert of the Peter Putnam article on the upcoming switch for digital channels. In it, he states "I tested a couple of these at Chicago’s O-Hare Airport earlier this year and was pleasantly surprised with the results as I was able to pull in all of the local UHF digitals plus WBBM-DT on VHF-3 (one of the dumbest frequency assignments the FCC has ever made)." Yep, in your filing to the FCC staff include an article that slams the FCC staff for a digital channel assignment. :D

This was an amusing read. I'm baffled by the following comment:

This circumstance results in a viewer reception problem since over-the-air viewers in the Kansas City market typically have UHF-only antennas.

Apparently, analog 4, 5, 6, & 9 don't count. I doubt that a majority of OTA users are watching the DTV stations, so this argument doesn't seem to hold water. However, I think it would be convenient for all the stations to be on the same band, so I hope it works out for them.

While my concerns are mostly with Low-VHF, if will be interesting to see if any of the 33 other solo VHF stations will consider a change to UHF. However, while visiting Monterey a couple months ago, I had no problems receiving the two upper VHF DTV stations, with a "UHF only" Silver Sensor.

As for that LG comment that the TV's can't tune VHF DTV signals, I have heard of some TV's not pulling in DTV VHF unless both analog and digital were scanned at the same time.

I agree that the Low-VHF to UHF transition (for most stations there now for analog), is not receiving any attention. I think this is a mistake.

It would be wise for WECT/6 and WWAY/3 in Wilmington to point this out to their viewers. With the local stations to only be on UHF there (WILM-LD has a CP for 40), it may add confusion to most other parts of the country which will still have VHF.

Trip in VA

06-01-08, 11:16 PM

The big problem is that there's a lot of misinformation out there about needing a new "digital antenna" which is generally UHF-only, and so some people end up replacing their perfectly usable antenna with a new one that doesn't handle VHF well.

The other problem is interesting. I can't say for sure, but based on my experiences with low-VHF digitals, it seems like there's a higher threshold for how much signal is needed to decode. I've been experimenting with this lately, and here's what happened:

With signal as low as 13.6 dB on my WinTV-D, WDRL-DT 41 decodes cleanly on the DTT900 receivers. The WinTV-D wants 16.

WBRA-DT on channel 3 requires at least 16 dB on my WinTV-D before it decodes cleanly on the DTT900--it's the same on both tuners.

I don't know if this applies to upper VHF, but it wouldn't surprise me. It seems like the inherent noise in VHF causes more signal to be necessary and the receivers to be more finicky in handling those stations.

Returning to the example of WBRA-DT, the DTT900 has the standard LG/Zenith signal meter. WBRA-DT can cause it to show a blank screen even with up to 50% signal (other stations decode at 33%) and even with signal approaching the "Good" range (66% and above) it drops and breaks up.

I get the feeling that a lot of stations are going to try to get off of VHF if they can before all is said and done, even upper VHF, primarily in markets where OTA is still a large audience. Signals dropping due to lightning strikes will not go over well.

EDIT: I forgot to say, the exception will be those stations which exist for cable carriage. I imagine if a station like WMCN-DT could get an upper VHF, they'd be extremely happy with it. Perhaps we'll see stations on VHF swapping with UHFs or something like that.

- Trip

dattier

06-01-08, 11:36 PM

I like the insert of the Peter Putnam article on the upcoming switch for digital channels. In it, he states "I tested a couple of these at Chicago’s O'Hare Airport earlier this year and was pleasantly surprised with the results as I was able to pull in all of the local UHF digitals plus WBBM-DT on VHF-3 (one of the dumbest frequency assignments the FCC has ever made)." Yep, in your filing to the FCC staff include an article that slams the FCC staff for a digital channel assignment.Story has it that WBBM asked for channel 3, I'm guessing because all they could see were the lower power bills. They soon came to regret it.

That brings up the issue of cutover times for stations that have to wait for another station to vacate its analog frequency so that they can use it as their digital frequency.

Larry Kenney

06-02-08, 05:22 AM

I did find this paragraph in the FCC announcement a bit amusing: "We also take this opportunity to clarify the exact time of day for expiration of post-transition construction permits. The CDBS automated filing system has issued post-transition DTV construction permits with an expiration of February 17, 2009 at 3:00 a.m. local time. We hereby extend the expiration of all of these permits to February 17, 2009, 11:59:59 p.m. local time." Yep, they now have until the 59th second to switch.

How did they get locked into doing the great switchover at midnight - right in the middle of Nightline, Leno & Letterman? I think it would make more sense for the stations that are doing a flash cut or changing their digital channel to do it at high noon or the middle of the afternoon when there are fewer viewers. Then people can start their evening viewing by performing a digital channel scan. Or do it at 4 AM local time. (It will probably be an all nighter for many station engineers anyway).

Stations don't have to keep their analog transmitters on to the bitter end. Some probably will, but they don't have to.

It's going to be interesting to see what the various stations do next February 17th. I have a feeling that they'll make a big deal out of it and have a big signing off ceremony for the analog station during the 10 or 11 o'clock news. i don't think they'll just flip off the analog transmitter power switch at 11:59 pm, even though that's all that many stations will have to do. The digital operation for lots of stations is in the post transition state already, so no changes will be necessary for them except to turn off the analog transmitter.

In some places, like here in the SF Bay Area, there's going to have to be a lot of coordination among the stations, as the digital operation for several stations will be moving to a channel being vacated by another station's analog signal. I don't think they'll all be doing this right at midnight.

There's probably going to be lots of overnight testing going on ahead of time, too, where an analog station will go off the air for an hour or two so that the digital transmitter that's going to be coming up on that channel can be tested. You can only do so much with a dummy load. Stations moving their own digital operation to their analog channel will probably do it during their monthly transmitter test time. Stations moving to another station's analog channel will probably do their testing in cooperation with the other station at the time they do their tests. I hope the stations get the word out so we can watch!

It's going to be a once in a lifetime experience to watch all of the changes occur next February. I'm looking forward to a fun day and night trying to catch all of the changes as they occur. I'm sure I'm going to miss a lot of them since there will be so much going on. I don't have enough receivers to watch every station. LOL

Larry
SF

HIPAR

06-02-08, 09:42 AM

...

It's going to be a once in a lifetime experience to watch all of the changes occur next February. I'm looking forward to a fun day and night trying to catch all of the changes as they occur. I'm sure I'm going to miss a lot of them since there will be so much going on. I don't have enough receivers to watch every station. LOL

Larry
SF

I'm not looking forward to the experience. That will be the day when I loose all over the air reception here in the Pocono Mountains of NE Pa.

--- CHAS

arxaw

06-02-08, 11:23 AM

That will be the day when I loose [sp] all over the air reception here in the Pocono Mountains of NE Pa.And many people will gain OTA reception, where previously they had none.

That's the way it is.

HIPAR

06-02-08, 12:45 PM

And many people will gain OTA reception, where previously they had none.

That's the way it is.

For those who haven't read it, here's an article about that subject:

http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=50&Itemid=84

--- CHAS

PA_MainyYak

06-02-08, 12:57 PM

I'm not looking forward to the experience. That will be the day when I loose all over the air reception here in the Pocono Mountains of NE Pa.

--- CHAS

So, are you telling us you do not receive any digital stations at your location now?

HIPAR

06-02-08, 01:46 PM

So, are you telling us you do not receive any digital stations at your location now?

Yea, that's what I'm saying. I receive snowy but usable VHF NTSC pictures from Philadelphia (80 mi south) and New York (80 mi east). UHF reception here is nonexistent. The official DMA here is Scranton but a mountain isolates me from TV there.

WPVI (6) delivers the best signal but, according to the expert commentary here, that won't be usable in its prime area let alone here.

My Geographic Coordinates 41.0598 -75.3449

--- CHAS

arxaw

06-02-08, 02:30 PM

For those who haven't read it, here's an article about that subject:

http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=50&Itemid=84

I have read that article. From it:
"It is also worth mentioning that simulations are never perfect. "

The article also doesn't include translators that haven't converted yet or multicast channels, many of which are bringing networks to people in small markets who could never get them on analog.

Example: in one of the (two) markets I can receive, the fox affiliate, KFTA's transmitter is located in the Southern area of the DMA. Their sister station, the NBC affiliate, KNWA's transmitter is located in the Northern region of the market. Both of these stations simulcasts the other's channel on a "-2" sub channel. The -2 subchannels aren't HD, but still very good, and allow many people to receive an additional major network OTA, that never could before.

There are many people who don't watch much TV, but subscribe to cable or satellite just to receive a picture free of ghosts or snow. I know several people who have already "cut the cable" after connecting a DTV converter and found out they could get a multitude of crystal clear TV channels without paying for them. Here's an email I received a few days ago, from an elderly couple who bought two Zenith converters and connected the boxes themselves:
"I hope you know how pleased we are to get clear tv without paying through the nose for it. We are not sports people and actually watch very little TV. [the local sat dealer] never called me back [about installing an outdoor antenna]. And, as it happened, after I set up both TV's in separate rooms with rabbit ears, we get 4 PBS stations, ABC 29-1 & CW 29-2, NBC 51-1 & FOX 51-2, CBS 5-1 and, NewsChannel 5-2. We have wonderful clear pictures. On ocassion it may break up, but it is better than the cable we got in Fayetteville, or the dish here. So, we are happy. I am amazed..."
These people live ~40 miles from all but one of the transmitter sites.

Some people will no doubt lose some channels and subscribe to cable. And the media will likely play up these cases. But overall, cable/sat may lose out in the analog shutoff. It will be interesting to watch it play out.

AmericanSkeptic

06-02-08, 02:58 PM

afiggatt

06-02-08, 03:40 PM

Can we keep this thread from getting sidetracked into the issue of digital reception at a particular location and making off-topic comments? HIPAR, you are in a dead area for UHF reception and VHF does not sound that much better. Still you may be able to get WPVI-DT 6 on VHF 6 next year. The station did get a fairly strong 7.56 kW signal to replace the 74.1 kW analog signal. We will see how the interference issues for low VHF will play out for VHF 6 in a market with a long standing VHF 6 station and fewer other VHF 6 & 5 stations to contend with. Also, the tvfool.com results for your location are not THAT bad; also shows line of sight to 3 translators that will eventually go digital some time after 02/17/09. If you want advice on what might work at your location or want to vent on the loss of low VHF stations, try the HDTV technical forum.

Trip in VA

06-02-08, 05:18 PM

Here's another channel change that's coming:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=13996727&postcount=752

KLTS-DT 25 in Shreveport LA wants to use their analog channel 24 instead due to unexpected interference they experience on 25.

- Trip

afiggatt

06-03-08, 12:15 AM

Well that did not take them very long. WABC-DT 7 in NYC has filed for 11.69 kW in place of the measly 3.2 kW alloted them in Appendix B. See http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101247154&formid=301&fac_num=1328.

Trip in VA

06-03-08, 12:18 AM

Falcon_77

06-03-08, 10:51 AM

Is that a maximized filing though? It looks to me like they're claiming to be trying to stay within Appendix B, which would imply it was planned to be filed before the lifting of the freeze...

It looks like a waiver freeze request filing, though they state no more than 6 miles instead of 5:

The additional interference also should not preclude a waiver of the filing freeze, if necessary, because, consistent with the filing freeze waiver standard: (i) WABC proposes to use its existing analog antenna to avoid a significant reduction in coverage, (ii) WABC’s contour extends only as far as necessary to serve the viewers contained in the Appendix B facility (no more than six miles in any direction),12 and (iii) the proposed facility would cause 0.5 percent or less new interference to all facilities except one, WNJB-DT, with respect to which WABC already possesses a waiver for increased interference, as noted above.13

Falcon_77

06-03-08, 11:02 AM

KPTV (FOX, Portland, 12) has filed a maximized request for 25kW vs. 21.9kW:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=644400

Not much of a difference here, but I would expect significant changes on quite a few stations that had to filed greatly reduced ERP's to stay within the old 5-mile limit. The next several weeks should be interesting.

N5XZS

06-03-08, 11:19 AM

Here's take look at that!!:D KOAT-DT is kicking butt and I am wondering if they can crank it up more.

KOAT-TV NM ALBUQUERQUE USA (Digital)

Licensee: KOAT HEARST-ARGYLE TELEVISION, INC.
Service Designation: DT Digital television station

Channel: 7 174 - 180 MHz Construction Permit
File No.: BPCDT-20080317AEH Facility ID number: 53928
CDBS Application ID No.: 1232661

35° 12' 53.00" N Latitude Site in Mexican Border Zone 106° 27' 1.00 " W Longitude (NAD 27)

Polarization: Horizontal (H) Effective Radiated Power (ERP): 26.5 kW ERP Antenna Height Above Average Terrain: 1292. meters HAAT -- Calculate HAAT Antenna Height Above Mean Sea Level: 3300. meters AMSL Antenna Height Above Ground Level: 71. meters AGL TV Zone: 2 Frequency Offset: 0 (zero) Directional Antenna ID No.: 85431 Pattern Rotation: 0.00

Running that kind of TX power at 10,600 feet above sea level will be on the best in the country to cover that ranges!

6-3-08

PA_MainyYak

06-03-08, 04:06 PM

The saga of WPCW in Pittsburgh, PA has moved a step closer to the final chapter, as they file for a CP on channel 11 (http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101246634&formid=301&fac_num=69880).
They had just filed another 387 just prior to the lifting of the freeze that included a three page summary of the FCC Follies (http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=642384).

The WPCW application calls for a tower location in the city of Pittsburgh (sharing the KDKA tower) instead of the FCC's already approved site about 20 miles southeast.

Sammer

06-04-08, 02:00 PM

Trip in VA

06-04-08, 06:17 PM

The bad news is it's for only 2.5 kW.

They say right in their application that they will be maximizing to 30 kW when the freeze is lifted. (It was lifted last week)

- Trip

w9wi

06-05-08, 11:08 PM

KCWX might end up trying to change their COL and moving in to San Antonio on a UHF. That would probably be their best option, as channel 8 simply will not work.

EDIT: Actually, if they could operate from the KMYS tower, they wouldn't even have to change their COL it looks like.
...
- Trip

KCWX can't change their COL, they're the only TV station licensed to Fredericksburg. The FCC won't let you delete a town's only channel.

(unless they can get some S.A. station to relicense itself to Fredericksburg?)

Falcon_77

06-06-08, 10:52 AM

A few of the low-VHF stations have filed applications to significantly increase ERP. These are:

KNOP/2: 16kW vs. 6.75kW
KHAS/5: 45kW vs. 6.78kW
WUOA/6: 26kW vs. 1.5kW (also at 305m vs. 158m at a new location)

Perhaps WPVI will try for 10kW. (maximum for Zone I)

N5XZS

06-06-08, 11:17 AM

This will be good news for TV Dxers on VHF low band!!:D Since here in Albuquerque will be no local station VHF low band, assuming there are no new stations filing for CP to FCC.:eek:

Now back to TV DXing fun!!

6-6-08

NashDigie

06-06-08, 07:36 PM

Now back to TV DXing fun!!

You've got that right!!!!! Last Thursday, this past Wednesday, and yesterday (Thursday), I had some great DXing, but I can never get a digital station. It might be because I have an ABC, NBC, and CBS analog channels on 2, 4, and 5. And the thing is, is that my CBS affiliate (ch. 5) will be going back to 5 as their post-transitional digital channel. Back in May, they got the transmitter and tested it out a few late nights. I just happened to be up and caught it. With my big RS vhf/uhf outdoor antenna, it came in on my tv's meter at 100%.
KNOP/2: 16kW vs. 6.75kW
KHAS/5: 45kW vs. 6.78kW
WUOA/6: 26kW vs. 1.5kW (also at 305m vs. 158m at a new location)
I might have a problem with KHAS during the summer time starting next year. I hope I don't have any trouble with my CBS affiliate being on digital channel 5 anyway.

NashDigie signing off.

Falcon_77

06-07-08, 10:37 AM

Is there a channel change petition form among those listed on the CDBS search. If not, would I have to wait until a 301 application is filed to know if there are any channel change requests?

Trip in VA

06-07-08, 10:55 AM

I'll have to look around for that this weekend. I know there's a place to look for channel change requests but I don't know where it is.

When I find it, I'll let you know.

- Trip

Thomas Desmond

06-07-08, 03:55 PM

KCWX can't change their COL, they're the only TV station licensed to Fredericksburg. The FCC won't let you delete a town's only channel.

(unless they can get some S.A. station to relicense itself to Fredericksburg?)

There have been rare exceptions -- KXII-TV, channel 12, Sherman, TX used to be licensed to Ardmore, OK. The FCC did allow KXII-TV to change its COL in the nineties despite the fact that the change left Ardmore with no licensed full power TV station. Note that Sherman did not have a licensed TV station prior to the change, and Sherman has roughly double the population of Ardmore.

Apparently, it was a lengthy process to get the FCC to approve this change -- and something that was allowed only under very unusual circumstances. Perhaps it is the exception that proves the rule.

Trip in VA

06-07-08, 04:32 PM

WRIC-8 in Richmond used to be Petersburg's sole licensed station. Now Petersburg has no TV stations also...

- Trip

Falcon_77

06-07-08, 06:44 PM

WRIC-8 in Richmond used to be Petersburg's sole licensed station. Now Petersburg has no TV stations also...

What is the significance of a City of License anyway? Most full power stations cover dozens of cities. It seems silly to be tied to that, especially in cases like Mt. Wilson when all but 1 local station broadcasts there, despite several different Cities of License.

99% of cities probably don't have "their own" TV station. Orange County, with 3 million people only has 3, none of which actually broadcast from sites within the county.

Falcon_77

06-07-08, 09:58 PM

In response to afiggatt's concerns (see the link below for his excellent observations on the matter):

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14035147#post14035147

I have checked the number of "big 4" and PBS stations which will be moving to UHF for DTV operations (as respects current analog viewers). Most of us here (using DTV already) have been receiving mostly UHF channels for quite some time now, but those still using VHF rabbit ears or VHF only antennas could be in for quite an unpleasant surprise next year.

The following is a count, by network, of stations "moving" from VHF analog to UHF DTV.

CBS: 82
NBC: 75
ABC: 57
FOX: 20
PBS: 40

FOX, being a newer network, won't have quite as many issues with this, but CBS and NBC would do well to warn their analog viewers of this change.

afiggatt

06-07-08, 11:59 PM

A cut at listing the cities where the big four network analog stations are all VHF, but some/all digital channels are UHF.

I went through Falcon_77's spreadsheet to try to find which DMAs have the big four network stations - ABC, CBS, Fox, NBC - all on VHF, but some or all have or will have UHF digital channels. The list would be considerably longer if I limited to DMAs were just the old line big three - ABC, CBS, NBC - are on VHF. Fox has many UHF stations because it is the newer network. If anyone finds an error or missing city or don't understand the table, let me know.

The issue in these cities, mainly those in the top 20 DMAs, is that some OTA viewers may get crappy or no UHF reception, but don't care because they can get the big four good enough on VHF. Or the traditional big 3 and PBS on VHF.

Notes:
1. Cities with big four (ABC, CBS, Fox, NBC) analog all on VHF, but some/all DT on UHF
2. Main PBS station also noted if on VHF with (P).
3. Also focused only on primary stations in city, not satellite stations for large DMAs
4. Does not include #44 Las Vegas where the big four are on VHF for both analog & digital!

DMA Analog Ch Pre-Trans DT Post-Trans DT
#1 NYC 2,4,5,7,13(P) 56,28,44,45,61 33,28,44,7,13
#2 LA 2,4,7,11 44,36,53,65 44,36,7,11
#5 Dallas 4,5,8,11,13(P) 35,41,9,19,14 35,41,8,11,14
#6 San Francisco 2,5,7,9(P),11 56,29,24,30,12 44,29,7,30,12
#9 Washington, DC 4,5,7,9 48,36,34,39 48,36,7,9
#14 Seattle 4,5,7,9(P),13 38,48,39,41,18 38,48,39,9,13
#15 Minneapolis 2(P),4,5,9,11 34,32,50,26,31 34,32,35,9,11
#16 Miami 2(P),4,6,7,10 18,22,31,8,9 18,22,31,7,10
#23 Portland 2,6,8,10(P),12 43,40,46,27,30 43,40,8,10,12
#35 Salt Lake City 2,4,5,7(P),13 34,40,38,42,28 34,40,38,42,13
#44 Albuquerque 2,4,5(P),7,13 27,26,35,21,16 27,26,35,7,13
#65 Charleston, WV 3,8,11,13 23,41,19,47 23,41,19,13
#68 Tucson 4,6(P),9,11,13 23,30,35,25,32 23,30,9,25,32
#73 Honolulu 2,4,9,11(P),13 8,40,22,18,35, 8,40,9,11,35
#73 Honolulu- Hilo 2,9,11,13 22,8,21,18 22,9,11,13
#110 Reno, NV 2,4,5(P),8,11 13,7,15,8,44 13,7,15,8,44
#113 Boise, ID 2,4(P),6,7,12 28,21,24,26,13 28,21,24,7,13
#150 Anchorage 2,4,7(P),11,13 10,20,8,28,12 10,20,8,28,12
#170 Billings, MT 2,4,6,8 10,22,18,11 10,22,18,11