Most subwoofer manufactures over rate their subwoofer performance. For example, Definitive Tech Supercube I (MSRP $1199) is claimed by the manufacture to have a Frequency Response: 13 Hz to 200Hz. Most first time sub buyers would think that sub is great. However, in Tom. Nousaine’s test (Jan 2004), The FR for Supercube I is 30Hz to 120 hz plus/minus 2.5hz. It can only produce 78db at 25 hz; it is unmeasurable at 20Hz. That is very misleading. This is an overrated subwoofer.

On the opposite, very few subwoofer makers underrate their subwoofers. PSB 6i (MSRP $745) is one example. The manufacture specified FR is 29 to 150 hz. Tom Nousaine’s test (April 2007) shows it has a FR 27 to 119 plus/minus 2.4db. It can produce 95 db at 20 Hz. It produces 109 db fro 25 to 62 Hz. Not many subs with less than $1000 MSRP can match that performance. So it is an underspecified subwoofer.

Most subwoofer manufactures over rate their subwoofer performance. For example, Definitive Tech Supercube I (MSRP $1199) is claimed by the manufacture to have a Frequency Response: 13 Hz to 200Hz. Most first time sub buyers would think that sub is great. However, in Tom. Nousaine’s test (Jan 2004), The FR for Supercube I is 30Hz to 120 hz plus/minus 2.5hz. It can only produce 78db at 25 hz; it is unmeasurable at 20Hz. That is very misleading. This is an overrated subwoofer.

On the opposite, very few subwoofer makers underrate their subwoofers. PSB 6i (MSRP $745) is one example. The manufacture specified FR is 29 to 150 hz. Tom Nousaine’s test (April 2007) shows it has a FR 27 to 119 plus/minus 2.4db. It can produce 95 db at 20 Hz. It produces 109 db fro 25 to 62 Hz. Not many subs with less than $1000 MSRP can match that performance. So it is an underspecified subwoofer.

Hi guy

I think that perhaps the most underrated sub around is the HSU VTF-3.3 (plus Turbo). For $899 delivered, this thing can do 112 db @20Hz.

Kind Regards

Hi guy

I think that perhaps the most underrated sub around is the HSU VTF-3.3 (plus Turbo). For $899 delivered, this thing can do 112 db @20Hz.

Kind Regards


Agree with "the most underrated sub around is the HSU VTF-3.3", but not sure if 112db @20 Hz is achieved in a room size of 7500 cube ft at 2 meter with 10% THD.

The HSU is not underrated,it is very recomended on forums(I recomend it over its competition)and measured performance as well as subjective it ranks highly.

HSU specs their subs well,not boosting numbers.


Definitive has very grosly,overblown specs when it comes to frequency response.
When they say 13Hz you add 10Hz to get a real idea of the LF usable limit. Proof is in the measured performance,they play with a two edged sword.


JL Audio is not overrated for one bit,the specs do not claim outrageous extension and yet it has both outstanding extension,sound quality and massive output.Very conservative specs here.


Lets just say specs do not tell half the story,proof is in listening and comparing.

Hi guy

I think that perhaps the most underrated sub around is the HSU VTF-3.3 (plus Turbo). For $899 delivered, this thing can do 112 db @20Hz.

Kind Regards


LOL...I hope Rockem reads this...

Good catch on the PSB, it seems that PSB always underrates their products. I had a PSB sub a long time ago, freaking great sub and it was underrated as well.
And I agree with you about the Def Tech's, imo, both the Towers and subs sound like crap. No offense to Def Tech owners.

Most subs are overrated to some degree, even some very expensive ones, when it comes to low frequency extension.

For the most part, SVS and Hsus are not under/overrated because their performance (measured) is quite well known.

I think the ID dealers are so closely watched by the subwoofer geeks, that they would get called out if they were fudging the numbers.

I've read past threads were MLS and Ilkka were arguing about the rolloff point of the UFW-12. MLS said one figure, and Ilkka said another. The difference was like 2-3 hz., and they went at it like it was WWIII.

Now to me, an accountant, we round everything, so 25-28 doesn't mean anything to me. But that just shows how scrutinized the ID dealers are.

Hi guy

I think that perhaps the most underrated sub around is the HSU VTF-3.3 (plus Turbo). For $899 delivered, this thing can do 112 db @20Hz.

Kind Regards


I have had this exact sub for one week and one day. I can' say whether it's underrated. I have very little reference with elite level subs and their prices. I can definitely say that whatever you feed the sub it belts out without problems. If you do have this sub, play the HSU test disk that came with the sub. Play the test tone of low freq tones. It will literally tell you why you bought the subwoofer. I am just getting accustomed to it, but in no way is if overrated, I feel.

Agree with "the most underrated sub around is the HSU VTF-3.3", but not sure if 112db @20 Hz is achieved in a room size of 7500 cube ft at 2 meter with 10% THD.

Hi guy

I think that 7500 cubic feet at 2M with 10% THD is the room and standard used by Tom Nousaine. The review I am referring to was done by Howard Ferstler in SensibleSound Magazine in issue 111.

Regards

I think the ID dealers are so closely watched by the subwoofer geeks, that they would get called out if they were fudging the numbers.

I've read past threads were MLS and Ilkka were arguing about the rolloff point of the UFW-12. MLS said one figure, and Ilkka said another. The difference was like 2-3 hz., and they went at it like it was WWIII.

Now to me, an accountant, we round everything, so 25-28 doesn't mean anything to me. But that just shows how scrutinized the ID dealers are.

3 hz or 3 db is a big deal in the lower regions in which most compare subs on these forums.

I would hypothesize that most companies would be ecstatic w/ 3 hz lower extension or 3 db more output in a same cost redesign.

Hi guy

I think that 7500 cubic feet at 2M with 10% THD is the room and standard used by Tom Nousaine. The review I am referring to was done by Howard Ferstler in SensibleSound Magazine in issue 111.

Regards

You know H. Ferstler's test method is not comparable to T Nousaine's. Ferstler's number could come from a much smaller room (3 to 6 db adjustment) at 1 meter (3 to 6 db adjustment) 50 to 100% THD (3 to 9 db adjustment).

Hi guy

I think that perhaps the most underrated sub around is the HSU VTF-3.3 (plus Turbo). For $899 delivered, this thing can do 112 db @20Hz.

Kind Regards

Hi spyboy,

As respectfully as I can say this, I'd suggest burying this broken record. :rolleyes:

The "record" you keep referring to was only in one man's listening room, and doesn't include what most would consider a sampling of the biggest and baddest.

The 112dB @ 20Hz measurement you have been quoting so often is in no way a *specification.* This is a measurement in one room by a reviewer. Hsu as a company claims no verifiable performance specification at all, so it's easy to say any measurement confirms understated numbers, as all context of specs are implied, with no stated conditions or specifics anywhere on the website. I'm sure they have some context in mind when they note "Bass Extension" as 16Hz or 22Hz, but I have yet to find it on the website.

I know it's in vogue to rag on SVS, but we should be giving them the credit that not only do they post a reasonably detailed response curve with +/-dB tolerance and conditions, they also post a response measurement demonstrating said spec. Tell me how many other manufacturers are going that far yet? Some are close, and some leave a lot to your imagination, and not by accident.

Something to think about...

Hi guy

I think that perhaps the most underrated sub around is the HSU VTF-3.3 (plus Turbo). For $899 delivered, this thing can do 112 db @20Hz.

Kind Regards

One of the problems with rating subs is that there are too many variables. You say the VTF-3.3 w/Turbo "can do 112dB @ 20 Hz.

Measured how far? Anechoic? If not where?

You can take any sub, measure it three ways and end up with three results.

Mark,

Well said,too many claim output figures not knowing the specifics as rock solid facts.And going over max output figures like broken records,max output is only one of the many deciding factors when purchasing subwoofers.

I couldn't imagine purchasing a subwoofer. DIY is the way to go. If you really want to experience world class go to the DIY section, we will welcome you and get those numbers in room, but that means going to the dark side :rolleyes:

I couldn't imagine purchasing a subwoofer. DIY is the way to go. If you really want to experience world class go to the DIY section, we will welcome you and get those numbers in room, but that means going to the dark side :rolleyes:
oh snap....Now you've done it!!! You have opened pandora's box!!! :D :p

In the spirit of this thread, I believe the DIY folks exaggerate or embellish their subs performance as much as the OEMs do. :eek: It's human nature to hide the warts on your own baby. :D

If DIY is so rewarding and achieves superior performance for less money, wouldn't you guys call it "The Path to Enlightenment" instead of "The Dark Side"? :p

In the spirit of this thread, I believe the DIY folks exaggerate or embellish their subs performance as much as the OEMs do. :eek: It's human nature to hide the warts on your own baby. :D

If DIY is so rewarding and achieves superior performance for less money, wouldn't you guys call it "The Path to Enlightenment" instead of "The Dark Side"? :p

Exactly.

The DIY guys use a nice little program,they input driver data,simulate with box size and various designs.Cut some MDF,inhale MDF dust and claim to be world class beyond world class. :p

One thing is sure,it is rewarding to say you build the sub yourself(with the help

In the spirit of this thread, I believe the DIY folks exaggerate or embellish their subs performance as much as the OEMs do. :eek: It's human nature to hide the warts on your own baby. :D

If DIY is so rewarding and achieves superior performance for less money, wouldn't you guys call it "The Path to Enlightenment" instead of "The Dark Side"? :p


It's meant to say that a DIY sub is like achieving a different power. :p With a little know how, you can build a sub that meets or acceeds commercial subs costing much more.

Agree with "the most underrated sub around is the HSU VTF-3.3", but not sure if 112db @20 Hz is achieved in a room size of 7500 cube ft at 2 meter with 10% THD.

You'd better stop throwing the results of this test out because it's making people mad/jealous...especially when they know what subs were compared under the same conditions.

I like my subwoofers!

In the spirit of this thread, I believe the DIY folks exaggerate or embellish their subs performance as much as the OEMs do. :eek: It's human nature to hide the warts on your own baby. :D

If DIY is so rewarding and achieves superior performance for less money, wouldn't you guys call it "The Path to Enlightenment" instead of "The Dark Side"? :p


I didn't mean to hurt your feelings. Sorry to say so, but DIY at times looks ugly (my gray boxes) quite large (LLT), quite loud in the basement (IB). No, we like the dark side.It speaks of alchemy,bending the rules,snorting MDF dust...and kicking the pants off the commercial world.

KG

The DIY guys use a nice little program,they input driver data,simulate with box size and various designs.Cut some MDF,inhale MDF dust and claim to be world class beyond world class. :p

One thing is sure,it is rewarding to say you build the sub yourself(with the help
you actually believe this nonsense you just posted????! :rolleyes: I mean, with "30 subs and counting" as you claim, you would think that by subwoofer number 8 or 9 your subwoofer IQ and knowledge would be a little more than mere canned rhetoric and the occasional failed attempt at sarcasm.

where do you think the designer of the Velo DD18 came from? where do you think Mark Seaton came from? where do you think Bossobass is at now? where do you think Chad Kuypers, John Jankowitz, Dan Wiggins, Deon Bearden, Thilo, Yates, Nouissaine, and the rest of them come from????

Buddy, if you think DIYers are just a bunch of cheap young guys with a saw and some sand paper, with winISD in some cheap laptop, sniffing MDF and pounding chests, you seriously need to get out more and re-learn a thing of two about subwoofers, their history, design theories, etc.

Some of the work of DIYers would put any commercial sub to shame in ALL ASPECTS, including looks and size, with less money. Just as in commercial offerings, there are some DIY speakers and subs of all shapes and sizes and finishes................. Just like some of the commercial offerings kill an amateur DIYer in terms of performance, finish, and looks.

stop generalizing and stereotyping; there are plenty of subs out there made by way of DIY that would kick the living excretion out of ANY of your 30 subs, mine included.

Dang Sab...testify :D

Hi Mark,

I'm sure they have some context in mind when they note "Bass Extension" as 16Hz or 22Hz, but I have yet to find it on the website.

If history is any guide, I think people can agree that Hsu Research products have always met and exceeded the bass extension specifications that have been provided on the website. In review after review this has always been the case. Case in point is the VTF-3 Mk2, which Ilkka measured to have 16/20Hz extension (-3db) in max extension/max output mode, which is even better than the 18/25Hz specs we provide on the website. The extension spec on the website product pages is often closely related to the port tuning, which tends to be even more conservative than the actual extension capability. The VTF-3 Mk3 is rated ultra conservatively at 18/25Hz in max extension/max output mode, even though extension and even port tuning is significantly lower than that.

I didn't mean to hurt your feelings. Sorry to say so, but DIY at times looks ugly (my gray boxes) quite large (LLT), quite loud in the basement (IB). No, we like the dark side.It speaks of alchemy,bending the rules,snorting MDF dust...and kicking the pants off the commercial world.

KGFeelings not hurt, just thought it was time to poke the bear. This forum has been too sedate lately. Looks like Sherv has gotten in the spirit. Must still be going through SVS withdrawals. :)

Peter, I believe what Mark's point is, is that there isn't any reference to the methodology used to measure the extension. Are your measurements anechoic, quasi-anechoic, in room...

Add an FR chart and you give more info to judge by.

There is a reason that those who go from from having owned and auditioned commercial subs to DIY stick with DIY, and it's not due to inhaling too much MDF dust ;) But if your wife runs the show and limits your subwoofer options to a 1'x1'x1' space, she probably won't let you play with tools and make MDF dust anyway. Now there's an "oh snap" for ya :p

you actually believe this nonsense you just posted????! :rolleyes: I mean, with "30 subs and counting" as you claim, you would think that by subwoofer number 8 or 9 your subwoofer IQ and knowledge would be a little more than mere canned rhetoric and the occasional failed attempt at sarcasm.

where do you think the designer of the Velo DD18 came from? where do you think Mark Seaton came from? where do you think Bossobass is at now? where do you think Chad Kuypers, John Jankowitz, Dan Wiggins, Deon Bearden, Thilo, Yates, Nouissaine, and the rest of them come from????

Buddy, if you think DIYers are just a bunch of cheap young guys with a saw and some sand paper, with winISD in some cheap laptop, sniffing MDF and pounding chests, you seriously need to get out more and re-learn a thing of two about subwoofers, their history, design theories, etc.

Some of the work of DIYers would put any commercial sub to shame in ALL ASPECTS, including looks and size, with less money. Just as in commercial offerings, there are some DIY speakers and subs of all shapes and sizes and finishes................. Just like some of the commercial offerings kill an amateur DIYer in terms of performance, finish, and looks.

stop generalizing and stereotyping; there are plenty of subs out there made by way of DIY that would kick the living excretion out of ANY of your 30 subs, mine included.


Dude,take your pills and chill.All of them in one shot if possible.

Stop comparing,eleveating yourself to some of the audio inovators you named.Your angry post could only be made by a little person with a gigantic ego,none of the people you mentioned would post a classy repply like yours.

Your gigantic tube of cardboard(almost as large as your ego)performs better,no wonder it bests any of my subs.You would have to be uncapable of entering data in win ISD to not make it perform better(loudness down deep).

Try inveting a new way design,and stop using the names of established induistry greats. I have exchanged emails with some of these people and they are nothing less than classy,you are not one of them,unless I am mistaken here.

Yes my post was sarcastic,and your angry repply a proof of your giant ego.

Well, what you're doing is the equivolent of emailing those classy guys and telling them that their product sucks. They will kindly respond with a "you're a moron" email, but they'll say you're entitled to your own opinion.

Do you not agree that commercial subwoofers are a compromise of many things? Mainly the Wife Approval Factor?

This dictates that the size of the sub cannot be too large.

When trying to reproduce very low frequencies in a smaller box the laws of physics dictates that you must use a tremendous amount of power. This can be seen in the F113.

When going the DIY route we do not have the constraint of trying to create a marketable product. The only person that we are selling this product to is our own wife.

This usually allows us to build the sub as large as we want. This allows us to take full advantage of the helmholtz resonator effect or very large tubes, aka ports. This just is not possible with a very small enclosure due to the fact that you can't fit a very large port in a very small box.

I oftern wonder when we are going to see pictures of all 30 of your subs.

Well, what you're doing is the equivolent of emailing those classy guys and telling them that their product sucks. They will kindly respond with a "you're a moron" email, but they'll say you're entitled to your own opinion.

Do you not agree that commercial subwoofers are a compromise of many things? Mainly the Wife Approval Factor?

This dictates that the size of the sub cannot be too large.

When trying to reproduce very low frequencies in a smaller box the laws of physics dictates that you must use a tremendous amount of power. This can be seen in the F113.

When going the DIY route we do not have the constraint of trying to create a marketable product. The only person that we are selling this product to is our own wife.

This usually allows us to build the sub as large as we want. This allows us to take full advantage of the helmholtz resonator effect or very large tubes, aka ports. This just is not possible with a very small enclosure due to the fact that you can't fit a very large port in a very small box.

I oftern wonder when we are going to see pictures of all 30 of your subs.

Hello there,anybody home.

When I posted about the MDF dust and feeling good building your own sub using win ISD it was meant as a joke.Do you understand,maybe it is my fault since I did not use the all important smiley.So some can read with a less war like state of mind.

A DIY can provide outstanding results for less money,did I ever question this? :rolleyes: You do the cabinet building yourself and save labour and pay zero for the brand name. Just the obvious.Did I question this too? And had I posted my post about the MDF dust in the DIY section I would fully understand you people to be up in arms preparing a sacrifice.

My thirty subs,oh I have another one I may add...number 31.You are as irritated as Zissou not to see my systems. :p I may have to use winISD to come up with a cure.

If you read posts and not fly over them,I never attacked DIYers subs.Mr Giant Ego did claim his subs beat anyone of the ones I own.What did I do,...cry,sob and agitate my limbs? No I said that yes his monster sized subs indeed better best all I have or else winISD would be of no use.

Hi Mark,

If history is any guide, I think people can agree that Hsu Research products have always met and exceeded the bass extension specifications that have been provided on the website. In review after review this has always been the case. Case in point is the VTF-3 Mk2, which Ilkka measured to have 16/20Hz extension (-3db) in max extension/max output mode, which is even better than the 18/25Hz specs we provide on the website. The extension spec on the website product pages is often closely related to the port tuning, which tends to be even more conservative than the actual extension capability. The VTF-3 Mk3 is rated ultra conservatively at 18/25Hz in max extension/max output mode, even though extension and even port tuning is significantly lower than that.

Hi Peter,

My comments were specific. I was not critiquing the actual performance or the satisfaction of owners. My point was that they can't be under or over specified because in current form the so called specifications lack a complete context by which they could be repeated by anyone. All of the details are implied as what a tester might expect, and leaves a convenient loophole. I know that Dr. Hsu understands specifications quite well, and I'm guessing this may be poor communication of the intended data, but it still means there are currently no clear specifications on performance.

Ilkka's testing and your own claimed alignment with them are a wonderful example of this. All of Ilkka's response numbers had positive and minus ranges that define a specific window that a response will or will not fit within. Ilkka's frequency response measurement of the VTF-3Mk2 didn't note a single frequency as "-3dB," as that is a meaningless spect that doesn't give any frame of reference. The specs Ilkka extracted from his measurements give both a lower and upper frequency limit with an associated response window of +/-3dB. Of course it's Ilkka's inclusion of the response curves from which the response spec was gathered that quickly step past all of the guesswork.

Stating "-3dB" and a single frequency leaves many assumptions to be made that could be interpreted in a few different ways. Heck, if conditions of measurement are not specified, like crossover setting (i.e. what frequency or bypassed) that can leave even more room to creatively position the data. Now I'm all for presenting a creation in positive light, but at least have some fine print describe the lighting conditions and/or maybe how those conditions relate to the user. :rolleyes:

I oftern wonder when we are going to see pictures of all 30 of your subs.

You're not alone! :D

Your gigantic tube of cardboard(almost as large as your ego)performs better,no wonder it bests any of my subs.


Hahaha. Oh boy...
theEar you are wasteing your time with these skeptics I think... :rolleyes: THEY demand proof! but even if you post pictures they will counterattack with the classic " but look closely, that rsw tower is photoshoped!"
It's too bad they are unaware of the fact you have linked various pictures of your systems and subs on the klipsch forums in the past...

To be honest ssabripo, I read your post and thought you came across quite condecending. While it is true about the generalizing of the DIY, the same can be said about the people who look at comercial subs and that they "don't know quality bass if it hit them in the face... " :rolleyes:


Even with my limited knowledge and experience, I know to trust my ears over some fancy output numbers and charts. Not saying there is anything wrong with the math or all the data, but sometimes too very similar subs on paper sound completely different in person as I'm sure you are aware.

Ok so theEar may just be another "guy" and a little "crazy" with the 31 subs. I also highly doubt he has golden or magic Ears( ok that was a bad pun :cool: ) but he has heard a lot and more importantly owned a lot.

I notice that quite a few members on this forum and other forums seem to really respect anything craigsub posts regarding subs and their performance. I think what he is doing is wonderful and giving people a real idea of what you can expect. Well if there was anyone else I would take seriously and is anything but a fanboy or loyal to one brand it would be theEAR. He has no agenda, just on the path to enlightenment - one infrasonic wave at a time.(or perhaps 31 at a time :p ) Seriously though, its not like he is loyal to ONE brand like so many many many members on these forums. And who says you need to be an engineer or sub reputable sub designer to know what good bass is... ?

I think you missed the point of his first reply to that DIY poster, theEar was just poking fun. You just took it as some sort of personal attack against you and all your DIY collegues. You'll have to excuse his French Canadian sense of humor , it can be quite direct at times :p

Arguments and a bit of drama are needed to keep things interesting, but lets keep it civil and fun guys.

Regards,

Ed

Ok so theEar may just be another "guy" and a little "crazy" with 31 subs, and i highly doubt he has golden or magic Ears( ok that was a bad pun :cool: ) but he has heard a lot (and not just in shops or other peoples ht's like many of us regular folk. People seem to respect anything craigsub posts and treat it as a great guide, well if there is anyone else I would trust in dishing out the truth about a subs performance it would be him. And who says you need to be an engineer or sub reputable sub designer to know what good bass is?



That's why its important to do a lot of first hand reading on your own and decide who is creditable and who isn't.

But who has the time for that? :o

Darn JimP, Hahaha.... my ninja edits weren't fast enough :) Too much to drink tonight and far too sleepy. I hope my post wasn't completely obtuse.

Cheers,

Ed

Hi Peter,

My comments were specific. I was not critiquing the actual performance or the satisfaction of owners. My point was that they can't be under or over specified because in current form the so called specifications lack a complete context by which they could be repeated by anyone. All of the details are implied as what a tester might expect, and leaves a convenient loophole. I know that Dr. Hsu understands specifications quite well, and I'm guessing this may be poor communication of the intended data, but it still means there are currently no clear specifications on performance.

Ilkka's testing and your own claimed alignment with them are a wonderful example of this. All of Ilkka's response numbers had positive and minus ranges that define a specific window that a response will or will not fit within. Ilkka's frequency response measurement of the VTF-3Mk2 didn't note a single frequency as "-3dB," as that is a meaningless spect that doesn't give any frame of reference. The specs Ilkka extracted from his measurements give both a lower and upper frequency limit with an associated response window of +/-3dB. Of course it's Ilkka's inclusion of the response curves from which the response spec was gathered that quickly step past all of the guesswork.

Stating "-3dB" and a single frequency leaves many assumptions to be made that could be interpreted in a few different ways. Heck, if conditions of measurement are not specified, like crossover setting (i.e. what frequency or bypassed) that can leave even more room to creatively position the data. Now I'm all for presenting a creation in positive light, but at least have some fine print describe the lighting conditions and/or maybe how those conditions relate to the user. :rolleyes:

Mark, your comments relating to specs are dead-on. That said, we've yet to see any published specs on your highly touted "Submersive". No doubt it is a great performer as several ear-witnesses have testified, but to lend weight to your points about the relevance of accurate specs, you too should attach complete specs to your baby.

OK, boys, let's reign it in a little here. :o

Can't we all just get along or respectfully agree to disagree. :)


Anyway, I am not defending anyone here. But, I can tell you that it is VERY easy to build something DIY that will outperform any commercial offerings. Most DIYers don't waste a tremendous amount of time on cosmetics though. The reason being, which is often overlooked, is that 90% of the fun is from the design and build. Anyone can listen to a sub or buy one for that matter! The building is where the fun is!

Think about it, you have a box, tube, or whatever, with a driver and an amp. It is not that complicated or magical. MOST commercial drivers are comparable to those purchased by DIYers for <$200, many <$100. So, it is not a stretch to purchase a $300 - $800 driver(s) and combine that with an enclosure and as much power as you want to feed and just crush whatever you are shooting for.

But, if you take a look at the DIY are you will see that there are some DIYers out there that have built some things that are simply amazing cosmetically and perfromance wise. Sure some people inflate the performance number, that is inevitable. However, it is just part of the culture and the nature of people. I have seen people post some insane numbers regarding all things subwoofers...

Either way, I am not sure how this thread got off topic!? :)

Hahaha. Oh boy...
theEar you are wasteing your time with these skeptics I think... :rolleyes: THEY demand proof! but even if you post pictures they will counterattack with the classic " but look closely, that rsw tower is photoshoped!"
It's too bad they are unaware of the fact you have linked various pictures of your systems and subs on the klipsch forums in the past...

To be honest ssabripo, I read your post and thought you came across quite condecending. While it is true about the generalizing of the DIY, the same can be said about the people who look at comercial subs and that they "don't know quality bass if it hit them in the face... " :rolleyes:


Even with my limited knowledge and experience, I know to trust my ears over some fancy output numbers and charts. Not saying there is anything wrong with the math or all the data, but sometimes too very similar subs on paper sound completely different in person as I'm sure you are aware.

Ok so theEar may just be another "guy" and a little "crazy" with the 31 subs. I also highly doubt he has golden or magic Ears( ok that was a bad pun :cool: ) but he has heard a lot and more importantly owned a lot.

I notice that quite a few members on this forum and other forums seem to really respect anything craigsub posts regarding subs and their performance. I think what he is doing is wonderful and giving people a real idea of what you can expect. Well if there was anyone else I would take seriously and is anything but a fanboy or loyal to one brand it would be theEAR. He has no agenda, just on the path to enlightenment - one infrasonic wave at a time.(or perhaps 31 at a time :p ) Seriously though, its not like he is loyal to ONE brand like so many many many members on these forums. And who says you need to be an engineer or sub reputable sub designer to know what good bass is... ?

I think you missed the point of his first reply to that DIY poster, theEar was just poking fun. You just took it as some sort of personal attack against you and all your DIY collegues. You'll have to excuse his French Canadian sense of humor , it can be quite direct at times :p

Arguments and a bit of drama are needed to keep things interesting, but lets keep it civil and fun guys.

Regards,

Ed
While I agree with the jist of your points, couple of comments that need clarification:

* The Ear, while he "may" own 30+ subs, has yet to post anything of value here....NOT one post of theoretical or logical value. His only resort is to constantly talk about 30 subs. Egos?? LOL :rolleyes: Yeah, I'm sure a man with 30 subs who constantly brags about it on a public forum, is surely deprived of massive of amounts of Ego...nay, he is the humblest of men. The reason people trust and follow craig chase is very simple: no chest pounding, no "hey look at me, I own 11tybillion subs", and most importantly, has put time and effort to learn the theory of subwoofer, how they are designed, has knowledge of how to take measurements and shares those measurements as a parallel to his subjective views, etc, etc. While many of us have disagreed with Craig in the past on several subjects, i have to say that it takes a lot more than just some rich guy having the buying power and ego to get 30 subs.

* Poking fun is all well and dandy....those around here for a while know I'm one of the biggest jokers around. What I dont have patience for is idiocracy and bullsh!t. There is no "path of enlightment" there. 4 months later, and still no signs of understanding what are some of the causes of distortion in a sub, how transients behave, why sub #21 has a faster group decay than sub #7, etc, etc.


Your gigantic tube of cardboard(almost as large as your ego)performs better,no wonder it bests any of my subs.
that's the spirit!!! Dont understand the technology, how they work, or are intimidated, then resort to childish name calling ;) I'm sure if you hurl a few more insults, those giant cardboard silos or even my previous "big box" will curl crying into a corner and not play anymore.

We can settle this with a dodgeball game. DIY vs. Commercial . Yes Ear, you can bring your 31 imaginary friends :D .And a couple cases of Molson Braddor if they still make it.I haven't seen it here in the states for some time.

LOL at this thread

LOL at this thread

No kidding! :D

[threadjack]
So, what's with the cost of oil man.

I think you missed the point of his first reply to that DIY poster, theEar was just poking fun. You just took it as some sort of personal attack against you and all your DIY collegues. You'll have to excuse his French Canadian sense of humor , it can be quite direct at times :p

Arguments and a bit of drama are needed to keep things interesting, but lets keep it civil and fun guys.

Regards,

Ed

Thank you for seeing this for what it was and not an all out mustard gas attack on DIY.

For the record when I had less income I was DIY all the way,and I know DIY has nothing to do with income as you can spend serious coin on DIY.

As for fanboys,I admit being a bit too positive about the JL subs.Heck you buy new toys that go beyond expectations you can be a bit over positive? Right

There is a reason that those who go from from having owned and auditioned commercial subs to DIY stick with DIY, :p

Agreed. I always had commercial subs namely SVS as my first big upgrade and believe it or not, I'm still loyal to them as to recommend their subs to new comers. In my case, I kept reading what the DIY'ers were coming out with and thought I'd take a shot. IMO, you should be a little handy, that goodness I am. Therefore I was able to put together two 15" subs and they have amazed me in performance costing much less than commercial. They will absolutely crush any of the commercial offerings.
Will I continue to suggest a commercial sub to someone? Yes I will. Will I go back to commercial? No way. ;)

Heck, if conditions of measurement are not specified, like crossover setting (i.e. what frequency or bypassed) that can leave even more room to creatively position the data. Now I'm all for presenting a creation in positive light, but at least have some fine print describe the lighting conditions and/or maybe how those conditions relate to the user. :rolleyes:

Hi Mark.

Its in the manufacturers interest to present data in the most positive light, and far too much data is presented without supporting assumptions or parameters. That's why the CEA-2010 Subwoofer Measurement Standard has been developed. The sooner all manufacturers start presenting their data using this standard the better it will be for the industry and consumers. It is the one measurement with which to compare all different subs. If companies present this standard measurement along with whatever other data they want it would greatly reduce uncertainty.

Not all companies will want to be compared in such a light and that is understandable. As it is now there are far too many charts and stats presented at company websites which are hard to replicate by reviewers using different instruments and measurement techniques.

I've been urging manufacturers and reviewers to adopt this standard for some time. As far as I know EM was the only one using a slightly modified version of the standard before he took another job. Hopefully others will follow Ed's example. Its inevitable.

Peter, I believe what Mark's point is, is that there isn't any reference to the methodology used to measure the extension. Are your measurements anechoic, quasi-anechoic, in room...

Add an FR chart and you give more info to judge by.

Randy, the bass extension specifications are usually related to port tuning. Most measurements that we do in-house are outside and away from reflective boundaries at 1m distance.

Agreed. I always had commercial subs namely SVS as my first big upgrade and believe it or not, I'm still loyal to them as to recommend their subs to new comers. In my case, I kept reading what the DIY'ers were coming out with and thought I'd take a shot. IMO, you should be a little handy, that goodness I am. Therefore I was able to put together two 15" subs and they have amazed me in performance costing much less than commercial. They will absolutely crush any of the commercial offerings.
Will I continue to suggest a commercial sub to someone? Yes I will. Will I go back to commercial? No way. ;)


Well put, I second that notion.

Hi guys

I may be a broken record, but the 112 db @20Hz with the HSU VTF3.3 plus Turbo for $899 delivered, measured by Howard Ferstler, is more than satisfactory to me. He tested the SVS PC-Ultra and it had about about 6 db less clean output at 20Hz, than the HSU VTF-3.3 plus Turbo for $899 delivered.

Can anyone point to a subwoofer under $900 that can deliver this much output at 20Hz?
That has been tested by anyone?

Take good care.

Good morning Mark,

Hi Peter,

My comments were specific. I was not critiquing the actual performance or the satisfaction of owners. My point was that they can't be under or over specified because in current form the so called specifications lack a complete context by which they could be repeated by anyone. All of the details are implied as what a tester might expect, and leaves a convenient loophole. I know that Dr. Hsu understands specifications quite well, and I'm guessing this may be poor communication of the intended data, but it still means there are currently no clear specifications on performance.

The bass extension specifications that we provide are generally related to the port tuning frequencies. It's actually a decent way to spec (albeit perhaps conservative esp with respect to in-room extension), since at and above port tuning is where the ported subwoofer operates with lowest distortion.

Ilkka's testing and your own claimed alignment with them are a wonderful example of this. All of Ilkka's response numbers had positive and minus ranges that define a specific window that a response will or will not fit within. Ilkka's frequency response measurement of the VTF-3Mk2 didn't note a single frequency as "-3dB," as that is a meaningless spect that doesn't give any frame of reference. The specs Ilkka extracted from his measurements give both a lower and upper frequency limit with an associated response window of +/-3dB. Of course it's Ilkka's inclusion of the response curves from which the response spec was gathered that quickly step past all of the guesswork.

Actually, if you look at the first graph that Ilkka provides for each subwoofer, he does note a specific high and low frequency as -3db response range. Is this meaningless? I suppose someone could argue that, although the measurement itself is consistent for all subwoofers that he tests. As I said above, the bass extension specs that we provide for max output/max extension mode are usually related to port tuning, which doesn't tell everything but is certainly not meaningless since it tells people the point at and above where distortion tends to be lowest.

Our philosophy has generally been to let independent third party reviewers provide data on our products. It is easy to get creative with a simple frequency response sweep (one can show smoothed data, unsmoothed, adjust scales on the graph, etc). There is also no limit to what a manufacturer could release. Do you plan on releasing in-house data based on the CEA 2010 measurement standard?

that's the spirit!!! Dont understand the technology, how they work, or are intimidated, then resort to childish name calling ;) I'm sure if you hurl a few more insults, those giant cardboard silos or even my previous "big box" will curl crying into a corner and not play anymore.

Not understanding the technology behind ported subs! You are quite a joker. No seriously I had no idea that a large long excursion driver in a large ported box would have more output,be capable of extension in the tens and offer cleaner almost uncompressed output at any sane listening level. Again yes YOUR giant subs are better than mine,now happy?

Path of enlightement! You are on a serious ego trip! No point arguing with a Titanic Ego.

You would be 100% on target had I posted in the DIY section.This is not the DIY section. FYI

"""" Yeah, I'm sure a man with 30 subs who constantly brags about it on a public forum """"

Constantly! You should see a doctor ,there are a few in the 20K Ubber Gear section. The only constant here is your anger. My sig perhaps angers you?


"""" What I dont have patience for is idiocracy and bullsh!t. """"

Then what are you doing here since it is DIY or death as you claim?? And the testing revolves about mass produced subs and not DIY(there is a section on this site for DIY). Go do standup comedy. Mr Giant Ego

Hi guys

I may be a broken record, but the 112 db @20Hz with the HSU VTF3.3 plus Turbo for $899 delivered, measured by Howard Ferstler, is more than satisfactory to me. He tested the SVS PC-Ultra and it had about about 6 db less clean output at 20Hz, than the HSU VTF-3.3 plus Turbo for $899 delivered.

Can anyone point to a subwoofer under $900 that can deliver this much output at 20Hz?
That has been tested by anyone?

Take good care.

The problem is that question is not possible to answer unless Howard Ferstler tests all other subwoofers in his room in the same way. The only reason Nousaine's measurements are of any value is because he has measured so many in a consistent manner. Of course now with so many performing more easily comparable ground plane measurements, we start to see the limitations in Nousaine's testing.

You now the qualify the numbers as "for under $900" where before it was just the best ever tested. Those are two very different statements, even though we still can't give much answer since there have been a relatively limited number of tests by Ferstler and they can't be compared by others. Some extrapolations can be made, but it's not my place to do them and there are too many other variable to do it confidently. The point to be made here is that claiming 112dB @ 20Hz in this context has no frame of reference. About the only thing we know with any confidence is that it was louder than others he has tested, just as you cite a fairly old review of a PC-Ultra. 6dB more maximum at 20Hz than a PC Ultra is something others could test and see if that's the case. 112dB @ 20Hz in this context is not reproducable by anyone other than in Ferstler's room.

The problem is that question is not possible to answer unless Howard Ferstler tests all other subwoofers in his room in the same way.

Howard Ferstler did test all other subwoofers in his room in the same way. His data on the Mk3 makes some sense. A VTF-3 Mk3/t is comparable in deep bass performance (near port tuning) to dual TN1220HO. The TN1220HO was measured by him to have 106db, and the VTF-3 Mk3/t to have 112db @ 20Hz with respect to subjectively clean output. Also, a VTF-3 Mk3/t is comparable in deep bass performance (near port tuning) to quad VTF-3 Mk1 (extended bass mode with port plug). The VTF-3 Mk1 was measured by him to have 100db, and VTF-3 Mk3/t to have 112db @ 20Hz. As you stated, these results are valid in his room only.

The problem is that question is not possible to answer unless Howard Ferstler tests all other subwoofers in his room in the same way. The only reason Nousaine's measurements are of any value is because he has measured so many in a consistent manner. Of course now with so many performing more easily comparable ground plane measurements, we start to see the limitations in Nousaine's testing.

You now the qualify the numbers as "for under $900" where before it was just the best ever tested. Those are two very different statements, even though we still can't give much answer since there have been a relatively limited number of tests by Ferstler and they can't be compared by others. Some extrapolations can be made, but it's not my place to do them and there are too many other variable to do it confidently. The point to be made here is that claiming 112dB @ 20Hz in this context has no frame of reference. About the only thing we know with any confidence is that it was louder than others he has tested, just as you cite a fairly old review of a PC-Ultra. 6dB more maximum at 20Hz than a PC Ultra is something others could test and see if that's the case. 112dB @ 20Hz in this context is not reproducable by anyone other than in Ferstler's room.

Thanks Mark

I am anxiously awaiting the measurements for the MFW-15.

How much louder is 6 db at 20Hz? It really doesn't matter to me which room the test was in. I have a Cerwin-Vega HTS-12PWR that did 105.9db from 25-50Hz in Nousaines old room, for $378 delivered, and it has remote volume. It is has about the same output as an SVS 25-31PCi. It sounds great.

Please explain the "sonic signature" of ported subs. Some people claim the the Fathom F113 is the cats meow, however, I have no complaints about ported subs.

All the Best

I don't really care whether the reviews are by Keith Yates, Tom Nousaine, Howard Ferstler, Ilkka, John Johnson, Don Keele, or people who have a lot of experience at home. I would rather not mention any names.

Thanks again.

6db is basically equal to what two of the same subs would produce when colocated. If you (theoretically) have a VTF doing 112db@20Hz then two stacked would do 118db@20Hz (again if all else equal).

It most CERTAINLY matters what environment the test were done in! The environment affects anything sound in a big way. Quoting figures such as 112db@20Hz mean nothing if all subs you are comparing those figures to were not tested in that same room.

This is true of anything in this world that is tested, the results must be able to be reliably duplicated.

Ports in an enclosure introduce anamolies in the sound. These changes to sound can be reduced through various means, but not eliminated.

If you hear a GOOD sealed sub you will understand the difference.

Spyboy, do you listen to stuff other than 20hz sine waves?

Reading the whole thread I feel like we have been poisoned by eating to much Purina products. :p The level of agression is scary.

I am out

All this because of a few woofers in boxes!!!Enlightement extraordinaire :p



May we find peace

Spyboy, do you listen to stuff other than 20hz sine waves?

Hi mike

I prefer 12 Hz sine waves on my dual HSU VTF-3HOs plus Turbos.

Kind Regards :)

Reading the whole thread I feel like we have been poisoned by eating to much Purina products. :p The level of agression is scary.

I am out



Me too! It all way off topic anyway. :mad:

6db is basically equal to what two of the same subs would produce when colocated. If you (theoretically) have a VTF doing 112db@20Hz then two stacked would do 118db@20Hz (again if all else equal).

It most CERTAINLY matters what environment the test were done in! The environment affects anything sound in a big way. Quoting figures such as 112db@20Hz mean nothing if all subs you are comparing those figures to were not tested in that same room.

This is true of anything in this world that is tested, the results must be able to be reliably duplicated.

Ports in an enclosure introduce anamolies in the sound. These changes to sound can be reduced through various means, but not eliminated.

If you hear a GOOD sealed sub you will understand the difference.


Hi Joe

It is not worth the difference in price to go with an equivalent sealed sub. 85% of the subs being sold are ported. My fiance will buy me 2 Velodyne DD-18s in Maple for my birthday, if I decide that there is any real difference between sealed and ported subs.

Hugs and Kisses

Hi mike

I prefer 12 Hz sine waves on my dual HSU VTF-3HOs plus Turbos.

Kind Regards :)

Excellent. You're broadening your horizons. :D Soon you'll move up to pink noise.

Hi Mark.

Its in the manufacturers interest to present data in the most positive light, and far too much data is presented without supporting assumptions or parameters. That's why the CEA-2010 Subwoofer Measurement Standard has been developed. The sooner all manufacturers start presenting their data using this standard the better it will be for the industry and consumers. It is the one measurement with which to compare all different subs. If companies present this standard measurement along with whatever other data they want it would greatly reduce uncertainty.

Not all companies will want to be compared in such a light and that is understandable. As it is now there are far too many charts and stats presented at company websites which are hard to replicate by reviewers using different instruments and measurement techniques.

I've been urging manufacturers and reviewers to adopt this standard for some time. As far as I know EM was the only one using a slightly modified version of the standard before he took another job. Hopefully others will follow Ed's example. Its inevitable.

The CEA 2010 standard only addresses distortion-limited output. It's a well conceived standard for this purpose, though.

I think the standard should be revised to at least include frequency response - it's the most basic/fundamental loudspeaker measurement.

Ilkka will be adopting the CEA 2010 standard for future tests. He's developed a method to generate the weighted tone bursts with S/T SpectraPro and will be using same for the testing.

I'll also be adopting these tone bursts for internal testing and comparing them to the previous results generated using short duration sine waves.

Hi Joe

It is not worth the difference in price to go with an equivalent sealed sub. 85% of the subs being sold are ported. My fiance will buy me 2 Velodyne DD-18s in Maple for my birthday, if I decide that there is any real difference between sealed and ported subs.

Hugs and Kisses

Spyboy, I wish there were some logic invlolved in much of what you say.

You talk about dual HSUs (if you actually have them) for $900 a piece. Then you talk about it not being worth the difference in price when compared to two DD-18s?!??!
So, you are going from ported ($900) to sealed with servo AND eq ($4,000)? The HSU may have some SPL, but isn't even in the same league with sound quality when compared to a DD!! A DD-18 is not an EQUIVALENT sealed sub.

You are living some sort of bizarro world or parallel universe.

Man, I am officially done with this thread. If can score some LSD somewhere I will be back, when I can be on the same transcendental plane! :D

In the meantime, to the rest of you, good luck!

The HSU may have some SPL, but isn't even in the same league with sound quality when compared to a DD!! A DD-18 is not an EQUIVALENT sealed sub.



How'bout if we throw a MBM into the mix. (I'm kidding) :D

Mark, your comments relating to specs are dead-on. That said, we've yet to see any published specs on your highly touted "Submersive". No doubt it is a great performer as several ear-witnesses have testified, but to lend weight to your points about the relevance of accurate specs, you too should attach complete specs to your baby.

There will be plenty of data and specs when I get around to turning on a website.

I have noted such simple specs as frequency response in the thread or two about the SubMersive, as well as posting an outdoor frequency response measurement to show where the +/-3dB from 19-200Hz spec came from.

When the AV123 products I'm designing are available you will see plenty of posted data as well.

Spyboy,....

Man, I am officially done with this thread. I can score some LSD somewhere I will be back when I can be on the same trancendental plane! :D

In the meantime, to the rest of you, good luck!

That is FUNNNNNY! :D

No! No! Please don't leave. :(

You are a very funny guy. Really. :)

Good morning Mark,

The bass extension specifications that we provide are generally related to the port tuning frequencies. It's actually a decent way to spec (albeit perhaps conservative esp with respect to in-room extension), since at and above port tuning is where the ported subwoofer operates with lowest distortion.

That may be useful as a range of useful low frequency output, but that's all the published numbers can claim. All else is still inferred. A good example of why this matters would be with the older passive TN series subwoofers. As I recall the dedicated amplifier had built-in EQ that was required to meet some desired response curve. By your reasoning, the specification using the intended external amp would be the same as using any old amplifier. If you only intend to note useful low frequency limit, that's fine, and we have no debate of over or under specifying, as there is no way to quantify such a claim as it has no specifics.


Actually, if you look at the first graph that Ilkka provides for each subwoofer, he does note a specific high and low frequency as -3db response range. Is this meaningless? I suppose someone could argue that, although the measurement itself is consistent for all subwoofers that he tests. As I said above, the bass extension specs that we provide for max output/max extension mode are usually related to port tuning, which doesn't tell everything but is certainly not meaningless since it tells people the point at and above where distortion tends to be lowest.

I believe you misinterpreted my post. Ilkka did provide useful measurements and included a specification of +/-3dB for the max output and max extension operation. He didn't note the specs as "-3dB" but +/-3dB which can actually be quantified and verified. It seems we're clear that your specifications are for low frequency tuning, not frequency response. Again, the frequency response is then not over or under specified, as there is no manufacturer's specification of frequency response.


Our philosophy has generally been to let independent third party reviewers provide data on our products. It is easy to get creative with a simple frequency response sweep (one can show smoothed data, unsmoothed, adjust scales on the graph, etc). There is also no limit to what a manufacturer could release.

You can shrink a graph in either axis and smooth to a gross degree, but the data is still the same. A worthwhile measurement includes the context and means by which it was produced with enough detail to allow reproduction by others. Then the public can determine how accurate or representative the presented data is.

That is FUNNNNNY! :D

No! No! Please don't leave. :(

You are a very funny guy. Really. :)

<said as only Joe Pesci could...>

What do you mean he's funny? :cool:

</comic relief>

<said as only Joe Pesci could...>

What do you mean he's funny? :cool:

</comic relief>
You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little fcuked up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to fckin' amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?

Randy, the bass extension specifications are usually related to port tuning. Most measurements that we do in-house are outside and away from reflective boundaries at 1m distance.Not picking on HSU specifically here, it's just that HSU came up in the discussion.

What I would like to see on a web site and/or the owner's manual are the following:
size and weight
driver compliment
amp specscontinuous watts
peak watts
user adjustable controls
inputs/outputs
PEQ/ARO specsfinishes
port specs
tuning freq
price

for performance (2m, gp, quasi):
+-3db FR graph
max spl graph
impulse response graph

I'm sure there are other graphs some would want to view.

This is very basic information I know all the sub OEMs measure. Just post the results. You can spin the information anyway you want.

Including this information on your web site is more important for the ID only OEMs. You need to paint a picture of your sub as most will not have the opportunity to demo.

Another thing I am learning about web sites is you want to make it a portal. Put links to all your trade associations and complimentary product OEM sites. Of course you wouldn't put your competitors links in. Once you get someone to your site, don't let them go. Let them click all they want, but always try to have them return to your site. The more information you put on your site for the viewer, the longer they stay and the less time they have to go to your competition.

<said as only Joe Pesci could...>

What do you mean he's funny? :cool:

</comic relief>

Don't read too much into my posts. :) It will only confuse you

That post: Originally Posted by jpmst3
Spyboy,....

Man, I am officially done with this thread. I can score some LSD somewhere I will be back when I can be on the same trancendental plane!

was funny as in ... homorous. :D

Hi Mark,

That may be useful as a range of useful low frequency output, but that's all the published numbers can claim. All else is still inferred. A good example of why this matters would be with the older passive TN series subwoofers. As I recall the dedicated amplifier had built-in EQ that was required to meet some desired response curve. By your reasoning, the specification using the intended external amp would be the same as using any old amplifier. If you only intend to note useful low frequency limit, that's fine, and we have no debate of over or under specifying, as there is no way to quantify such a claim as it has no specifics.

Just as an FYI, if people used a non-Hsu Research amplifier with their TN subwoofers, they could purchase our bass optimizer to provide EQ and subsonic filtering for their subwoofer. However, the TN was always meant to be sold as a powered subwoofer system with purpose-built amplifier, with amplifier separate from enclosure so as not to compromise the structural integrity of the cylinder.

I believe you misinterpreted my post. Ilkka did provide useful measurements and included a specification of +/-3dB for the max output and max extension operation. He didn't note the specs as "-3dB" but +/-3dB which can actually be quantified and verified. It seems we're clear that your specifications are for low frequency tuning, not frequency response. Again, the frequency response is then not over or under specified, as there is no manufacturer's specification of frequency response.

Yes, from the specifications that are on the new website, it is in almost all cases port tuning (with the exception of VTF-3 Mk3 which is rated more conservatively). However, on the old website I believe that we may have provided - 1db or - 2db @ X Hz for frequency response specifications. Those were based on sweeps performed outside and away from reflective boundaries at 1m distance (100db sweep level most likely), and were generally quite close to port tuning frequency.

You can shrink a graph in either axis and smooth to a gross degree, but the data is still the same. A worthwhile measurement includes the context and means by which it was produced with enough detail to allow reproduction by others. Then the public can determine how accurate or representative the presented data is.

We have pondered releasing more detailed data for some time now. Trust me, we have lots of data covering various types of measurements for all the subwoofers, but preference for now is still to have third party reviewers provide detailed data on the products.

What I would like to see on a web site and/or the owner's manual are the following:
size and weight
driver compliment
amp specscontinuous watts
peak watts
user adjustable controls
inputs/outputs
PEQ/ARO specsfinishes
port specs
tuning freq
price

for performance (2m, gp, quasi):
+-3db FR graph
max spl graph
impulse response graph

I'm sure there are other graphs some would want to view.

This is very basic information I know all the sub OEMs measure. Just post the results. You can spin the information anyway you want.

Including this information on your web site is more important for the ID only OEMs. You need to paint a picture of your sub as most will not have the opportunity to demo.

Another thing I am learning about web sites is you want to make it a portal. Put links to all your trade associations and complimentary product OEM sites. Of course you wouldn't put your competitors links in. Once you get someone to your site, don't let them go. Let them click all they want, but always try to have them return to your site. The more information you put on your site for the viewer, the longer they stay and the less time they have to go to your competition.

Thanks for the feedback Randy, we will certainly consider this!

Very helpful info Randy. I would hope all sub manufacturers would consider providing this data.

Not picking on HSU specifically here, it's just that HSU came up in the discussion.

What I would like to see on a web site and/or the owner's manual are the following:
size and weight
driver compliment
amp specscontinuous watts
peak watts
user adjustable controls
inputs/outputs
PEQ/ARO specsfinishes
port specs
tuning freq
price

for performance (2m, gp, quasi):
+-3db FR graph
max spl graph
impulse response graph

I'm sure there are other graphs some would want to view.

This is very basic information I know all the sub OEMs measure. Just post the results. You can spin the information anyway you want.

Including this information on your web site is more important for the ID only OEMs. You need to paint a picture of your sub as most will not have the opportunity to demo.

Another thing I am learning about web sites is you want to make it a portal. Put links to all your trade associations and complimentary product OEM sites. Of course you wouldn't put your competitors links in. Once you get someone to your site, don't let them go. Let them click all they want, but always try to have them return to your site. The more information you put on your site for the viewer, the longer they stay and the less time they have to go to your competition.

Thanks for the feedback Randy, we will certainly consider this!
hope it becomes a practice among the different ID companies, Peter. A lot of confusion, and second guessing, as well as the constant tit for tat internet battles would be avoided. Looking forward to seeing some numbers from you ;)

ps- I apologize for not being able to meet up with you at CES...the last day became very hectic, and I could not break away to meet up as we agreed. I will make it next time!

I think I made my point. There is some basic information every sub/speaker OEM collects on their product that would be very helpful for shoppers. I just gave a short sampling. Just publish the results. If there is some weakness in the specs/results, the marketing folks can put a spin on it, or the engineers can make design changes to correct them. You don't have to detail design secrets or T/S specs. Though I doubt there are any secrets between the OEMs. Probably not too difficult to reverse engineer a subwoofer.

If you don't want to provide your own measurements, at least provide a link to AVTalk or Illka's published measurements.