As I was reading through some of the postings here recently on small vs large settings on your receiver for your speakers. I stumbled across a posting that said that if you run your speakers at 'Large' this will not send the same signal to your subwoofer. Basically as I understood it you would starve your sub of its bass signal.
So I took my speakers off large and put them to small and watched a heavy bass scene in a movie. Then went back and forth changing the setting and watching the same scene. I noticed a difference in my fronts but the sub seemed the same.
My understanding was that the 'large' setting sent more power to your speakers and did not starve your sub.
Could someone please clear this up for me. I guess I would like to know what exactly the receiver does when the speakers are set to large and to small.

Thanks in advance.

I found another posting that stated that at the Large setting only the LFE would go to the sub. Is this the only difference?

As I was reading through some of the postings here recently on small vs large settings on your receiver for your speakers. I stumbled across a posting that said that if you run your speakers at 'Large' this will not send the same signal to your subwoofer. Basically as I understood it you would starve your sub of its bass signal.
So I took my speakers off large and put them to small and watched a heavy bass scene in a movie. Then went back and forth changing the setting and watching the same scene. I noticed a difference in my fronts but the sub seemed the same.
My understanding was that the 'large' setting sent more power to your speakers and did not starve your sub.
Could someone please clear this up for me. I guess I would like to know what exactly the receiver does when the speakers are set to large and to small.

Thanks in advance.

I found another posting that stated that at the Large setting only the LFE would go to the sub. Is this the only difference?

http://www.robbroy.net/HT/SubwooferErrors.cfm

You're pretty close - "Large" generally sends the full frequency range to your mains, without redirecting any bass to the sub. This forces your receiver to work harder, since it is now driving the low frequency output from your mains, vs. letting the onboard amp in your sub do that work. LFE is all that will get sent to the sub when the mains are set to Large. I don't know what you mean when you say you noticed a "difference" in your mains switching back and forth, but as one possibility, if you don't have the phase set properly on your sub, you can induce quite a null at the crossover point (probably 80 Hz), when your mains are set to Small. Have you set-up/calibrated your speakers and sub before trying this experiment?

Ross

http://www.robbroy.net/HT/SubwooferErrors.cfm

That is valuable info but it answers my question how?

Ross,

Thanks for the info. I will calibrate my whole system soon.

So with the small setting less actual power is sent to the fronts?

So with the small setting less actual power is sent to the fronts?

That's a more technical question than I may be able to answer. I think I'm correct in saying that your receiver is going to be able to send it's rated power to your mains regardless of whether they are set on large or small. For a given piece of music, if it's bass heavy, I imagine less "power" is going to your mains when set on Small vs. Large, because the amp isn't being forced to make your mains reproduce those lower frequencies - but that's a good thing.

Ross

One problem I may have with setting my mains to small is that it annoys me when I can notice the location of my sub. I have it off to the side and if I run more sound/bass to it, it my drive me nuts.
A bit of a conundrum, loving bass and not wanting to notice where it is coming from.
2 subwoofer time?

Thanks again for the info.

One problem I may have with setting my mains to small is that it annoys me when I can notice the location of my sub. I have it off to the side and if I run more sound/bass to it, it my drive me nuts.
A bit of a conundrum, loving bass and not wanting to notice where it is coming from.
2 subwoofer time?

Thanks again for the info.

Try playing with the X-Over on your pre/pro set below 80hz. It will reduce the localization from the sub. If you can still localize it, try another position for the sub in your room so it blends well to the mains. The reason you set all the speakers to small is that you get better dynamics from all the speakers while reducing the power load from the pre/pro. Try placing the sub near the mains and see if you'll like it. That should further reduce the localization you're experiencing with your setup. Goodluck....

I'll second Hiroyuki's comments, particularly checking your sub's x-over setting in the receiver. Frequencies above 80 Hz become very easy to localize, so you want to keep that x-over at 80 or below.

I wouldn't worry about a second sub until you're sure you have your system set-up properly.

Ross

If I could change the location I sure would. My crossover is at 80.

I will work more on setup.

When deciding setting speakers on LARGE or SMALL it is quite easy in most cases.

When speakers are rated down to 30hz and are linear down to at least 40Hz you can set them to LARGE.When you have speakers that start rolling off say at 60hz or higher ,they should all be set to SMALL.

Also depends on the levels you listen at,if any strain can be detected during high level playback,set the speakers to SMALL.This removes any strain on the amp and speakers,as most power is used for the bass.The lower you go in frequency the more wattage you need to sustain the same SPL.


And even with large mains I cut large speakers around 80Hz and let the many subs take over from there.

For music I prefer to cut subs at 40-50hz and only free the mains from the very deep bass.These mains are capable of real output to a solid 28hz.I would say cut the mains 10-20dB above the natural roll off of the speakers.

LFE is all that will get sent to the sub when the mains are set to Large.

Not true. All bass under the crossover point will also be directed to the sub.


When deciding setting speakers on LARGE or SMALL it is quite easy in most cases.

When speakers are rated down to 30hz and are linear down to at least 40Hz you can set them to LARGE.When you have speakers that start rolling off say at 60hz or higher ,they should all be set to SMALL.

Also depends on the levels you listen at,if any strain can be detected during high level playback,set the speakers to SMALL.This removes any strain on the amp and speakers,as most power is used for the bass.The lower you go in frequency the more wattage you need to sustain the same SPL.


And even with large mains I cut large speakers around 80Hz and let the many subs take over from there.

For music I prefer to cut subs at 40-50hz and only free the mains from the very deep bass.These mains are capable of real output to a solid 28hz.I would say cut the mains 10-20dB above the natural roll off of the speakers.


I agree. Setting your mains to large may also reduce localization issues and provide better blending. It all depends on the frequency response of your mains. I have full range speakers that are very linear with a tuning point around 40hz. Setting them to large with the crossover at 80, has always worked better for me in terms of over all sound quality and dynamics. After alll, their is a reason why HTR manufacture's offer the large setting option even if the sub is engaged. See link below for more input on this subject.

http://www.hometheatersound.com/features/cinemacynergy/cc_20010701.htm


Ian

"Not true. All bass under the crossover point will also be directed to the sub."

You are partially incorrect.

From what I gathered most receivers (at least mine for sure!) have at least three sub options for when maisn are set to large. The three options for my AV Rec are "Sub Off" that does the obvious, then "Sub On" which sends ONLY .1/LFE to the sub and everything else to mains, then "Sub Plus". Sub Plus is the option where .1/LFE is sent to the sub PLUS any other bass below the crossover point (along with that bass also being sent to mains).

So in the standard/default position of Speakers Large and Sub On, only LFE goes to the sub. Sub Plus (or similarly named on other receivers) is an optional setting that sends full range to mains PLUS also sends below x-over bass to sub (and LFE of course).

Yes, that's the way the vast majority of AVR's are designed, ZZen, although there are a few that don't have the "Plus" setting.

Unfortunately, many of the manuals don't describe it as clearly as you did, so the question keeps coming up.

I've been wondering how my soundcard (X-Fi) does it, as it also has a setting for large/small like a receiver. I suppose the good news is that when I do get my sub, it is easy to test since I know the cutoff of my main speakers, and pure tones are easy to generate on a computer.

To me it would seem kind of silly not to send some bass to the sub as speakers that can do down to 20Hz are exceedingly rare. I have large, and not inexpensive, full tower speakers and they still only hit 30Hz, and they are pretty weak there, 35-40Hz is more when the usable range kicks in.

I suppose when I do get my testing done I'll make a post here to let other X-Fi owners know how it works on this particular card.

"Not true. All bass under the crossover point will also be directed to the sub."

You are partially incorrect.

From what I gathered most receivers (at least mine for sure!) have at least three sub options for when maisn are set to large. The three options for my AV Rec are "Sub Off" that does the obvious, then "Sub On" which sends ONLY .1/LFE to the sub and everything else to mains, then "Sub Plus". Sub Plus is the option where .1/LFE is sent to the sub PLUS any other bass below the crossover point (along with that bass also being sent to mains).

So in the standard/default position of Speakers Large and Sub On, only LFE goes to the sub. Sub Plus (or similarly named on other receivers) is an optional setting that sends full range to mains PLUS also sends below x-over bass to sub (and LFE of course).


Let me clarify. When the sub is engaged, regardless of the speaker size setting, the LFE channel will be summoned to the sub only. When speakers are set to large and main , all bass below the crossover point will go only to the mains and the sub. When the speakers are set set to large and plus ( or both on some receivers ), then all bass under the crossover point will be summened to any of the speakers that are set to large and the sub. However, if all the speakers are set to large, the sub out is shut off. This is from Yamaha's web facts page using a fixed 90hz crossover:

When setting the LFE/Bass Out to Both or Main, what is the effect ?
When you are using a powered sub woofer and the LFE/Bass out is set to both; frequencies from 90Hz – 20Hz are sent to the sub woofer, as well as the speakers who are set to Large. If you set the LFE/Bass Output to Main, then frequencies from 90Hz - 20Hz are sent only to the main speakers, only if the main speakers are set to large. If the main speakers are set to small, then only frequencies from 20Khz – 90Hz are sent to the main speakers. If all speakers are set to large, then the LFE/Bass Output is mute.

(I must have posted this on the forum about 6 times already. :D )

Ian ;)

However, if all the speakers are set to large, the sub out is shut off.



I think this is still a bit confusing to some, as it was when I read it. The above mentioned case is only true if your LFE/Bass Out is set to Mains only. Otherwise with all speakers set to large, just the .1 in the track goes to the sub.

Funny how this seemed like it would be a clear answer when it all started. The problem may be caused by different receiver manufacturers using 'small' and 'large' differently.
When I read through all the posts it just got more confusing. Of course this could be just too much beer on weeknights.

Is this right:

Large
The full sound range sent to the mains, the sub also gets any sound below your cross over point and the LFE.

Small
Only the sound above the crossover setting is sent to the mains, and the sub gets all the sound below the crossover setting and the LFE.

I only have the two settings on my Onkyo.

yes i believe it depends on the receiver, on my HK 340 i have the following options for subwoofer:
For Large Speakers:
- LFE+L/R
- LFE
- NONE

For Small Speakers:
- SUB (only option available, and all frequency below xover is sent to sub)

When i set my speakers to large and subwoofer for LFE, the sub was only active while playing movies w/ LFE information, even tho I had xover at 100.

In most receivers if you set a speaker to small, all freq below the xover go to the sub along with the LFE. If you set a speaker to larger then the entire freq that speaker goes to the speaker and none to the sub. Now this assumes your bass/LFE output setting is set to sub/LFE only. If you change this to both or sub plus mains then regardless of the speaker size setting everything below crossover goes to the sub. But then you get duplicated bass in the mains and the sub. With all speakers set to large there is no bass to redirect from other speakers to the sub so the sub gets only the true .1 bass (LFE).

In most receivers if you set a speaker to small, all freq below the xover go to the sub along with the LFE. If you set a speaker to larger then the entire freq that speaker goes to the speaker and none to the sub. Now this assumes your bass/LFE output setting is set to sub/LFE only. If you change this to both or sub plus mains then regardless of the speaker size setting everything below crossover goes to the sub. But then you get duplicated bass in the mains and the sub. With all speakers set to large there is no bass to redirect from other speakers to the sub so the sub gets only the true .1 bass (LFE).

Not exactly.


It really isn't all that complicated. The LFE channel is discrete and has little to do
with the bass management settings once the sub is set to yes/on. These settings determine only which speakers get the bass output below the crossover point. The plus or both mode is designed to allow you to engage the sub even if more then just the main speakers are set to large. Lets say your left, right and center speakers were full range and you wanted to set them to large. With the plus mode you could set it up this way and still implement the sub. Some higher end receivers have a optional separate discrete LFE output which sends only the LFE channel to the sub. All other bass is summoned to the mains or any speaker that is set to large. The problem is, most receivers have a single sub output which sometimes is also refered to as the LFE. This output however carrys not only the LFE channel, but any bass below the crossover point to the sub.

Ian

Maybe it is just your wording causing confusion but it still sounds like you are saying if left, center and right are all large you will not get anything from the sub unless you set your bass out to "both" rather than sub only. It would still get the .1 LFE, just not any redirected bass from the left, center and right speakers. That was the only point I was trying to clarify.

Maybe it is just your wording causing confusion but it still sounds like you are saying if left, center and right are all large you will not get anything from the sub unless you set your bass out to "both" rather than sub only. It would still get the .1 LFE, just not any redirected bass from the left, center and right speakers. That was the only point I was trying to clarify.

Unless your receiver has a separate LFE only output, you can not receive just the LFE channel from your sub, regardless of your bass management settings.


Ian ;)

Not correct.

I have a Yamaha receiver that has a subwoofer output (standard RCA jack style) like most receivers. If I set all speakers to large and subwoofer to Yes (instead of no, telling it I do have a sub connected) and Bass Out to sub (not main or both) , then play a 5.1 source the only thing that plays out the sub is the .1 LFE. That is the whole point of the large setting for the speakers, so the sub gets only its discrete .1 signal and no bass management is enabled.

Now if I set bass out to both, then the sub also gets all frequencies below the crossover.

I stand corrected. The plus mode is for all the bass under the crossover point to go to any speakers that are set to large regardless of the playback mode when the sub is on and has nothing to do with the LFE. I have my mains set to large so that all the bass below the cross goes to the mains during DD/DTS playback except the LFE channel which goes to the sub. When playback is in stereo all he bass goes to the mains and the sub is mute. If I set it to plus, all the bass will go to my mains and the sub.

Ian

Glad we are all on the same page now. :) Hopefully the OP can find his answer buried here somewhere.

Glad we are all on the same page now. :) Hopefully the OP can find his answer buried here somewhere.


Sorry for the confusion. It is very rare for most set ups to have just the LFE going to the sub since in most configurations one or more of the speakers are set to small. On my Pioneer there is no main setting, if I set all my speakers to large my sub is mute unless I set it to plus. Therefore there is no option that will provide the sub with only the LFE channel.

Ian

My original explanation stands correct.

Mailiang -
If you have a Pioneer there IS an option that provides the sub with only LFE. It is called "Sub On" when you have at least the front speakers (and possibly the back also) to large. Sure some gear uses different terminology but the basic options are what I outlined several posts back. This is out of the standard sub out connection. The only reason your sub is mute (at least on a Pioneer) when you set all speakers to large is if there is no LFE/.1 in the signal you are listening to.

I just read through my manual again and I have a Double Bass setting also that "feeds bass sound from the right and left to the subwoofer". Super.
I have set the mains to small and have done the setup.
I still dont really know what my receiver is doing as far as bass management. Going to email Onkyo and see if I can get a straight answer.
Thanks everyone for making it a bit clearer.

My original explanation stands correct.

Mailiang -
If you have a Pioneer there IS an option that provides the sub with only LFE. It is called "Sub On" when you have at least the front speakers (and possibly the back also) to large. Sure some gear uses different terminology but the basic options are what I outlined several posts back. This is out of the standard sub out connection. The only reason your sub is mute (at least on a Pioneer) when you set all speakers to large is if there is no LFE/.1 in the signal you are listening to.

While listening to a DD 5.1 sound track these were my settings on my Kenwood :
Front, Large
Center, Large
Surround, Large
Sub, Yes

Sub was mute.

Changing any of the speaker settings to small will engage the sub, therefore all the bass below the crossover point from that channel will be directed to the sub. Therefore there is no option that provides only the LFE channel to the sub on that receiver.

On my newer Pioneer using the same settings I still had my sub with just the LFE. It is obvious that the bass management setting are different on different receivers. I only set my mains to large anyway so it was never an issue for me. Thanks for the input. No pun intended! :D

Ian

That Kenwood is sure messed up then. This means it never plays any LFE (.1). Is there another setting like Bass Out that is maybe set to fronts or mains rather than sub? Did you listen to the same track on both systems? Maybe there was no true .1 content on the track. I agree different receivers do different things but I have never seen or heard of one that throws away all .1 content with all speakers set to large.

If the Kenwood is as you say then yeah it's messed up. I still think it will do sub lfe/.1 only. When you say "sun was mute" do you mean the kenwood said that/displayed that or do you mean you just didn't hear anything coming from the sub. If the Kenwood was set as All speakers Large and sub yes as you said ..then that is (should be) the combination of settings that would mean the sub only gets .1 signals.

Maybe there is another setting in the Kenwood that got messed up. Remember also that listening to a 5.1 signal does NOT mean there is always something happeneing on the .1 part. Many times a movie will go a long time with no .1 signal. Other times (especially on HDTV) the 5.1 signals get send from broadcasters incorrectly so there is actually no .1 being sent.

Maybe try setting the Kenwwod to All large and Sub yes, then run test tones. If a .1 test tone doesn't come out of the sub (and assuming the sub is powered on, sometimes subs with standby/auto on features don't get triggered to be on without high volumes, check the light on the back), then the Kenwood is messed up.

The different way manufactureers implement these features sure can be confusing to the consumers that's for sure! My friend has a Kenwood (a couple different friends actually) I'll check them out when I get a chance.

Later!

I just read through my manual again and I have a Double Bass setting also that "feeds bass sound from the right and left to the subwoofer". Super.
I have set the mains to small and have done the setup.
I still dont really know what my receiver is doing as far as bass management. Going to email Onkyo and see if I can get a straight answer.
Thanks everyone for making it a bit clearer.
I have an Onkyo 603 and this is from the manual:

"Choose a crossover frequency suitable
for your setup. If you’re using a subwoofer,
choose a crossover frequency
based on the diameter of your front
speakers. If you’re not using a subwoofer,
use the diameter of any speaker
that you specified as Small."

This would only make sense if the cross-over is active with the mains set to Large... in other words, the mains Large setting still sends freqs below the X-over to the sub.



Another quote from my Onkyo manual about the Double Bass feature:

"With the Double Bass function, you can boost bass output
by feeding bass sounds from the front left and right
channels to the subwoofer. This function can be set only
if the Subwoofer setting in step 3 is set to Yes, and the
Front setting in step 4 is set to Large."

Note... the mains must be set to Large!
A while back, I 'discovered' that the implementation of the "Double Bass" feature is not as straight forward as one would suppose. With the "Double Bass" feature enabled, I did a real-time (REW) in-room freq analysis and discovered that the bass going to my sub was severely 'rolled off' by the Onkyo starting at 40Hz... (there's a longer story of how I eventually figured out it was Onkyo double bass feature doing it)... but if I disabled the feature my HSU goes down to around 23Hz before its natural roll-off occurs. I'm not sure why Onkyo does this to the "Double Bass" but I think its something Onkyo owners should be aware of as there is no hint to this in the manual.

I have an Onkyo 603 and this is from the manual:

"Choose a crossover frequency suitable
for your setup. If you’re using a subwoofer,
choose a crossover frequency
based on the diameter of your front
speakers. If you’re not using a subwoofer,
use the diameter of any speaker
that you specified as Small."

This would only make sense if the cross-over is active with the mains set to Large... in other words, the mains Large setting still sends freqs below the X-over to the sub.


To me it is saying if you don't have a sub your mains are then probably set to large, which will now get the redirected bass from the "small" speakers so set your crossover based on your small speakers and not your large fronts. So to me it says it is behaving like most receivers out there.


Another quote from my Onkyo manual about the Double Bass feature:

"With the Double Bass function, you can boost bass output
by feeding bass sounds from the front left and right
channels to the subwoofer. This function can be set only
if the Subwoofer setting in step 3 is set to Yes, and the
Front setting in step 4 is set to Large."

Note... the mains must be set to Large!


Right, on most receivers your fronts must be large to get double bass. Think of Double Bass as the next setting for your fronts after Large rather than a Double Bass being a setting for the subwoofer. Normally if you set fronts to large the sub gets no frequencies from the fronts. But if you then turn on Double Bass it adds the below crossover frequencies back into the subwoofer. You can't have double bass without large speakers because there is nothing to "Double". So again, seems to behave like most others.



A while back, I 'discovered' that the implementation of the "Double Bass" feature is not as straight forward as one would suppose. With the "Double Bass" feature enabled, I did a real-time (REW) in-room freq analysis and discovered that the bass going to my sub was severely 'rolled off' by the Onkyo starting at 40Hz... (there's a longer story of how I eventually figured out it was Onkyo double bass feature doing it)... but if I disabled the feature my HSU goes down to around 23Hz before its natural roll-off occurs. I'm not sure why Onkyo does this to the "Double Bass" but I think its something Onkyo owners should be aware of as there is no hint to this in the manual.

Not saying you are incorrect, but if you were checking double bass and had both the fronts and sub playing when you ran REW are you sure you weren't seeing cancelations with the multiple sources of the same frequencies rather than your sub dropping off? I know I get bad cancellation issues in Double Bass mode (different receiver though). Unless the sub and fronts are positioned and phased correctly this is a very common issue. This is the same reason setting up mutliple subs can be tricky. But if you indeed see this then, I hope this is not behaving like most out there.

Let me try this again... "If you’re using a subwoofer,
choose a crossover frequency
based on the diameter of your front
speakers."
This is followed by a chart with various diameter woofers and the corresponding suggested X-overs. The particular selected X-overs and their cooresponding woofer diameter don't make any sense unless the lower freqs are going to the sub... and you would have thought the X-over would be based upon the woofer dia of the Small speakers, not the mains.


About the Double Bass... Nope, when I run REW to check each channel's in-room response, I disconnect all speakers except the one I'm directing the sound to... Freq cancellation due to room modes is a non-issue under these conditions.

The reason I pointed out that Double Bass requires the mains be set to Large is because mel2b said he had his set to Small and was trying to enable Double Bass... at least that is what it sounded like he was trying to do.

Let me try this again... "If you’re using a subwoofer,
choose a crossover frequency
based on the diameter of your front
speakers."
This is followed by a chart with various diameter woofers and the corresponding suggested X-overs. The particular selected X-overs and their cooresponding woofer diameter don't make any sense unless the lower freqs are going to the sub... and you would have thought the X-over would be based upon the woofer dia of the Small speakers, not the mains.

I actually pulled up the manual because it seemed odd. Reading the manual I guess it all makes sense to me and is as I explained earlier. When you have a sub you usually set the crossover based on the frequency response of your mains to get the best blend, which is what they recommend. But when you have no subwoofer connected, most receivers force the fronts to "large" and essentially act as the subwoofer by getting all of the re-directed bass from the "small" speakers. This is why they recommend setting the crossover based on the small speaker woofer size when no sub is connected.

EDIT: I read what you were saying again and I now I think I see where you are coming from. I think the manual should mention on that chart that it does not apply if the speakers are set to large. Again, I'm assuming based on how most receivers work and what I see in the manual, but that manual is not very good IMO. The manual for my Yamaha is very good in explaining all of the options and how one setting may affect another.


About the Double Bass... Nope, when I run REW to check each channel's in-room response, I disconnect all speakers except the one I'm directing the sound to... Freq cancellation due to room modes is a non-issue under these conditions.

Very interesting situation you discovered then. Guess it pays to dig into your system as much as you can. Too bad the average Joe would never know.


The reason I pointed out that Double Bass requires the mains be set to Large is because mel2b said he had his set to Small and was trying to enable Double Bass... at least that is what it sounded like he was trying to do.
Agreed, you must have fronts set to large to get double bass.

Email I received from Onkyo:

When the front speakers are being set to large majority of the bass
signal is going to be routed to front speakers. With the double bass it equals
it out the bass to fronts and to the subwoofer. The crossover for the
subwoofer would be at 80 Hz. With the front speakers set to a small
setting the crossover will be set to 120 Hz. So 120 Hz and below would be going
to the subwoofer when speakers are set to a small setting.
Thank you,
Jen

Funny thing was that I asked for a complete technical explanation of the crossover settings and the large and small feature.
When I first read it I thought she meant the crossover was automatically being set when you choose small or large on the mains. After reading it a few times I think these are the suggested settings for the crossover.

I started this because I wanted to run my mains 'large' and be sure my sub was still getting all the sound it needed. This was after reading a post on the board that said, 'setting your mains to large will starve your bass'.

My problem is compounded by having a smaller room and 4" diameter mains that go to 54hz. I emailed Totem and they say to run the speakers at large.
Just want to make sure I am not missing any bass out there.

I think whoever sent that email response wrote the manual, neither one answers your question. 4" diameter mains that go down to 54hz should not be run large in my opinion. Set them small with 80hz crossover. My mains go down to 40hz (6.5" driver I think) and my center and surrounds go down to 55-60hz. All are crossed over at 80hz.

I think whoever sent that email response wrote the manual, neither one answers your question. 4" diameter mains that go down to 54hz should not be run large in my opinion. Set them small with 80hz crossover. My mains go down to 40hz (6.5" driver I think) and my center and surrounds go down to 55-60hz. All are crossed over at 80hz.

I agree with your assessment. I think running the speakers at small is probably the best option for most applications when listening to multi channel sources. The only reason I run my mains large is that I do not use the sub during stereo operation, which at that setting will automatically set the sub to mute. My main speakers produce very linear output down to 40HZ at -3db and I run them in stereo with an outboard eq. My ideal situation would be to have a preset for all the speakers to small for multi channel and then large for stereo only operation. Unfortunately my HTR can't do that.

Ian

Just another quick note:
I set my mains to large and ran some test tones.
From below 50hz there was almost no sound.

Therefore my options are to run 'Double Bass' on with large mains or set the mains to small. I guess this narrows my choices.

I wonder how many people out there starve their sub. I am thinking lots.

Now I just need to figure out why I have such huge level fluctuations moving slowly down from 200hz down to 20hz.

Thanks again guys.

Just another quick note:
I set my mains to large and ran some test tones.
From below 50hz there was almost no sound.

I guess your mains aren't even close to full range. :D I ran my mains at large using the plus option this weekend. Since this thread got going, I started experimenting a bit with different settings and DVD's that I use as demo discs. There is a tad more bass output from the mains in this mode, but not a significant difference then when running them at small during 5.1 playback. This is probably due to the fact that most of the heavy impact bass is going to the sub via the LFE channel.

Ian

Email I received from Onkyo:

When the front speakers are being set to large majority of the bass
signal is going to be routed to front speakers. With the double bass it equals
it out the bass to fronts and to the subwoofer. The crossover for the
subwoofer would be at 80 Hz. With the front speakers set to a small
setting the crossover will be set to 120 Hz. So 120 Hz and below would be going
to the subwoofer when speakers are set to a small setting.
Thank you,
Jen

Funny thing was that I asked for a complete technical explanation of the crossover settings and the large and small feature.
When I first read it I thought she meant the crossover was automatically being set when you choose small or large on the mains. After reading it a few times I think these are the suggested settings for the crossover.

I started this because I wanted to run my mains 'large' and be sure my sub was still getting all the sound it needed. This was after reading a post on the board that said, 'setting your mains to large will starve your bass'.

My problem is compounded by having a smaller room and 4" diameter mains that go to 54hz. I emailed Totem and they say to run the speakers at large.
Just want to make sure I am not missing any bass out there.

I've got an Onkyo 604 and the way IT works is when FULL RANGE is set (it can be set for ALL speakers) you have to select DOUBLE BASS and then the LFE get sent to the sub. The LFE sent is what you set the x-over for the sub to be. Otherwise the sub is OFF. The receiver may send full range to the speakers but that doesn't mean they they can reproduce it. :rolleyes:

My mains go down to 32hz and I still set the cross to 80hz. Sometimes I try 60hz and to be honest I really cant tell that much of a difference so I leave it at 80 most of the time and let the sub do the Job it was intended to do.

In my case, a 90w/channel AVR driving a 7.1 set, I really don't want the AVR working that hard sending all that stuff to the mains.

Even if they can go low it's largly unnecessary if you have a good sub.



--mike

Let me clarify. When the sub is engaged, regardless of the speaker size setting, the LFE channel will be summoned to the sub only. When speakers are set to large and main , all bass below the crossover point will go only to the mains and the sub. When the speakers are set set to large and plus ( or both on some receivers ), then all bass under the crossover point will be summened to any of the speakers that are set to large and the sub. However, if all the speakers are set to large, the sub out is shut off. This is from Yamaha's web facts page using a fixed 90hz crossover:

I have full range speakers that are very linear with a tuning point around 40hz. Setting them to large with the crossover at 80, has always worked better for me in terms of over all sound quality and dynamics. After alll, their is a reason why HTR manufacture's offer the large setting option even if the sub is engaged



(I must have posted this on the forum about 6 times already. :D )

Ian ;)

not all receivers hadles the bass signals as such, nor all have those options besides simple "lage/small/none and "yes or no"[for sub]. In many cases optional crossover settings only apply whan a given speaker is set to "small".

My ideal situation would be to have a preset for all the speakers to small for multi channel and then large for stereo only operation. Unfortunately my HTR can't do that.

Ian



Are you sure about that? ALL receivers will treat the mains as large if you have an analog direct mode. MOST receivers will also disregard the small speaker settings in the 2 channel mode and run the mains as large with no subwoofer.

I run my mains R & L mains as large at all times anyways, but the BM in my receiver is not active in the analog direct and stereo modes.

not all receivers hadles the bass signals as such, nor all have those options besides simple "lage/small/none and "yes or no"[for sub]. In many cases optional crossover settings only apply whan a given speaker is set to "small".


I agree with you.

When I set my speaker configuration to Large R & L mains, small center, small surrounds, and the subwoofer set to ON the following occurs:

LFE, small redirected bass is sent to the R main channel and the L main channel (like every receiver does if same configuration is selected with subwoofer set to OFF) Then, the combined total L and R main bass is mixed and low pass filtered and is sent to the subwoofer.

In addition, I have individually adjustable crossover frequencies for each small speaker group (mains, center, side surround, rear surround and LFE high cut filter).

If I change any speaker sizes, then BM is different.

Simply put, you need to know (not assume) what your specific receiver does for BM.

I've got an Onkyo 604 and the way IT works is when FULL RANGE is set (it can be set for ALL speakers) you have to select DOUBLE BASS and then the LFE get sent to the sub. The LFE sent is what you set the x-over for the sub to be. Otherwise the sub is OFF.


--mike


Are you sure you are talking LFE here and not re-directed bass? I think you are confusing the two. You should get LFE out the sub at all times (assuming it exists in the track).

Are you sure about that? ALL receivers will treat the mains as large if you have an analog direct mode. MOST receivers will also disregard the small speaker settings in the 2 channel mode and run the mains as large with no subwoofer.

I run my mains R & L mains as large at all times anyways, but the BM in my receiver is not active in the analog direct and stereo modes.

If I'm not mistaken running the analog direct mode with the speakers set to small still implements the sub. I will check again and post. Thanks.

Ian

I shake my head trying to decipher my receiver manual at times. Whatever happened to terms like highpass/lowpass and bandpass with simple explanations to go with them? Now I deal with small and large speakers! Arrgh!

For those wondering on a SoundBlaster X-Fi, and thus likely on other SoundBlaster products it appears large/small under bass redirection could more accurately be called yes/no. When speakers are set to large it seems to do NO bass redirection at all, regardless of any other setting. When they are set to small, it redirects bass per the crossover setting.

Somewhat annoying, since I want to cross my center higher than my other speakers, but hey. Maybe some day someone will make a good soundcard with per channel bass redirection. It's annoying that the X-Fi won't since it is well within the capabilities of the DSP on it.