Well I'm making the trip to the Akron area tonight from Cleveland to help ccarzoo set up his HSU 3.3 with Turbo.

I am really looking forward to this trip because this will be my first chance to really setup, hear, and then demo a 3.3 with and without turbo.

I talked to Chris last night and we have all of the common test DVDs ready for action (either he has them or I'm bringing them).

I'll also be bringing my Digital SPL meter and a test tone CD with sweeps and indivdual tones for set up and testing. Also a cable to connect the SPL meter to his laptop because.....I mentioned to Chris that since he has a laptop it would be really helpful if he went ahead and bought the TrueRTA software, but that is up to him since it does cost $100, and even without it we will still be able to really dial in the sub at the proper level and phase.


What is also great about this trip will be the fact he has demoed the PB-12NSD and the 20-39+ and the fact that I have owned the PB-12NSD and 16-46+ and have demoed the PB-10nsd, PB-12+2 and 20-39+.

That really provides us with a lot of background knowledge to compare the sound and performance of some of the common SVS subs with the HSU 3.3 with and without turbo. (I know side by side testing is best, but this is better than nothing ;))

After the fun, Chris and I will be sure to post any personal thoughts, comments, charts, graphs or numbers that we record.

This SVS guy is very excited to finally hear the 3.3 in action .....More to come either tonight or tomorrow :D

Good for you.

Now people won't be able to rag on you for never hearing a HSU. :-0

Well I hope it does add to my credibility as a poster here. ;)

But honestly the main reason for this is to help someone out in the area who has a passion for this stuff like we all seem to, and also to educate myself more on what is out there :)

Well I hope it does add to my credibility as a poster here. ;)

But honestly the main reason for this is to help someone out in the area who has a passion for this stuff like we all seem to, and also to educate myself more on what is out there :)
Better be careful that you don't like it too much or you might be selling your SVS for a VTF 3 HO+Turbo. :D

LOL

I'm always looking for the best there is and I'll be the first at admit if the HSU 3.3 impresses me and out performs the SVS sub that I have.

But Buffarino....I'm not testing the HO, I'm testing, what people are saying, is just about as good as the HO but for less money, the 3.3!!

That is way too cool. You will have to give us your impressions. You and I have really been searching for the perfect sub. I am real close to pulling the trigger on an HO with turbo. Can't wait to hear your impressions.

Will you be bringing your SVS to compare? That would be best.

I hope he has a truck to drag his SVS 16-46Plus....

Good Luck bgilly, and Have a fun trip, as to me thats what it would be all about...
I love helping people out, and if you can have fun doing it, all the better... Have a cocktail and enjoy playin.... Give us a heads up when your done... let us know how you like the 3.3.

Warp

First..........trust me if I had an SUV the 16-46+ would have went with me 100%. But I don't so that was not an option.....sorry guys....


Well Chris and I spent about 1-2 hours finding the BEST place for his sub for his main 2 LP. We ran a lot of Freq sweeps and found a great spot, which also happened to please his wife the most!!! :D

After we did that and dialed it in the fun began. All in all it was about a 5 hour night and we both had a great time. Chris was a great host and his basement is kick ass!!!

As for the 3.3 with turbo......Impressive. His room is larger than mine....I'd say somewhere in the ballpark of 4000cubic feet when all the space is added up....

Master and Commander and U571 and JP3 Dino Fight really stood out to me. The extra SLAM was there and was a nice treat when compared to my 16-46+....the 3.3 with turbo was better! But what my 16-46+ lacked in the SLAM it makes up for a little in the SHAKE..... WOTW and PULSE gave ithe 3.3 with turbo a really tough test...even with the turbo I'm not sure it did "better" than my 16-46+. I was not impressed with how the turbo fit too. The only way we could get it to really stay put was to jam it against the wall....otherwise the massive airflow would leak out or push the turbo tubes out of whack. I thought there would be a better way to secure it to the subwoofer rather than just jaming it in. Lucky for us that the placement option allowed us to actually jam the back against the wall.

Numbers were impressive for most scenes...His main LP had to change, but it was well worth it. The impact at his new LP is impressive. We talked about the need for an MBM or a 2nd sub, and I think the conversation said that down the road if he wants more he is better off just colocating another 3.3 with turbo in the corner rather than the MBM. He would have +6 additional headroom from 16-80 rather than just from 50-80hz.....to me, it makes more sense if he wants to get to the 110-115db Bass level....

We seriously tested about 20 dvd's and about 30-40 scenes total, so the testing was in depth and very fun! His massive DVD changer made life so easy too!!! :)

I think we both left feeling that he made a good choice...the 3.3 with turbo is a winner and personally i'd compare it to the pb-12plus or the 20-39+.

I heard the PB-12+2 at SVS and to me it had more output....maybe not the depth down in the TEENS....but from 20hz up to me it sounded more powerful.......that being said it also has dual woofers and costs more, so the 3.3 for $900 is a great deal!!!!


ALL THIS BEING SAID.........if I had no subwoofer I would still wait to see what the Ultra was going to do and be priced at. After that....the 3.3 is a great option.

But seriously....if you get a Plus series SVS or a 3.3 HSU you are going to be a happy camper....both subs are kick ass!!

Hopefully soon Chris can get a chance to swing up here to my place and we can play around with my 16-46+ just so he can compare :)

I was not impressed with how the turbo fit too. The only way we could get it to really stay put was to jam it against the wall....otherwise the massive airflow would leak out or push the turbo tubes out of whack. I thought there would be a better way to secure it to the subwoofer rather than just jaming it in. Lucky for us that the placement option allowed us to actually jam the back against the wall.

Strange on this comment. The turbo on my HO was a really snug fit. Never had to worry about it coming off. Was the carpet mat used under the turbo? Mine was not included in the initial shipment.

Seriously, all I had to do was use the carpet mat, snug the turbo into the ports and it was not going anywhere.

Thanks for your review and helping out a fellow AVS'er. That is one of the items that makes this forum really nice where people help people.

Charles

YA the rug was used.

The movie Pulse was pushing so much damn air that it was actually forcing the turbo out of the ports in the back. The only way we could get them to stay in was to place it snug against the wall. It solved the problem and didn't take away from SQ so we were happy.

I know that Chris's room, my room and the SVS factory room are all totatly different so that makes directly comparing them difficult, but like I said, it is better than nothing :D

Today I'm going to run all of the scenes we watched on my system at the same level of master volume we used last night.

DD seemed to be a -10db master volume average while DTS tracks seemed to be about -13 to -15 master volume average.


ps....HIs Onkyo reciever used 85db test tones which was very different from my pioneer which seems to use 75db test tones. We dialed in all the speakers to 85db and dialed the sub about 1-2db hot over the speakers. I explained to Chris too that he has a LITTLE room to play with his subwoofer level on the reciever based upon how loud he is listening.

Did you test much without the turbo on and in max extension?

Could you measure or hear a difference with the turbo in place?

Is the turbo worth it?

Thanks for all the great info!

Chris said he tried it without the turbo and liked the extension better and to be honest I think the turbo sounded very good. It had a nice sense of depth to it for only $100 more so if I were buying it I'd get the turbo option. If you need more headroom or slam just buy 2 of the subs...

Right now I'm running all the tests on my sub (But I have a smaller room than Chris so its hard to compare directly)

Chris said he tried it without the turbo and liked the extension better and to be honest I think the turbo sounded very good. It had a nice sense of depth to it for only $100 more so if I were buying it I'd get the turbo option. If you need more headroom or slam just buy 2 of the subs...

Right now I'm running all the tests on my sub (But I have a smaller room than Chris so its hard to compare directly)

Just buy two? I am a married man, and I don't know if the boss would approve of that. :D

You said he liked the extension better without the turbo, did you mean output? Did he like it better with port plugged or both open?

I have heard a few of these turbo complaints. A lip in the pipe with a snap clip should fix this. I hope HSU would do something about it.
Brad,
Good to know your opinions. If you were to do it again, and given a choice between the 16-46 PC+ and the HSU 3.3, which would you choose?

No....i mean he liked the extension better WITH the turbo option. Turbo both open!!!

Sorry i reread that and it was confusing.

If you were buying a new sub right now I'd still wait for the Ultra just to see what they are going to be like.

Jai

I'd do my 16-46+ again

I like the WOTW and PULSE movie edge it gives me down in the depths. Sure I lack a little up top, but thats why I'll just get duals. I know it costs more, but thats the price you pay to get deeper and louder... :)

ps....I like the looks and ease of moving of my PC+ a lot better than the 3.3 with its giant turbo....I think it was safe to say Chris felt the same way, but when it comes to subs looks take a little bit of a backseat to the performance (unless WAF is a MAJOR part)


Basically this........if you want the depths and don't mind a little loss in the mid....the 16-46+ is probably your sub.

If you dont mind giving up a little down in the Teens.....then the 3.3 with turbo is probably your subwoofer (or even the 20-39+ due to the small footprint). The master and commander SLAM effect was very very impressive....I know my 16-46+ is probably 2-4db softer in that movie (a guess not an actual measurment) because its so heavily centered frmo 30-50hz (the slight weakness of my 16-46+)

I was not impressed with how the turbo fit too. The only way we could get it to really stay put was to jam it against the wall....otherwise the massive airflow would leak out or push the turbo tubes out of whack. I thought there would be a better way to secure it to the subwoofer rather than just jaming it in. Lucky for us that the placement option allowed us to actually jam the back against the wall.
Did you use the supplied grip pad between the turbo and the top of the sub. With that in place, the turbo does not move at all. Some have overlooked that before.

Sounds like you had fun!!

Jai

I'd do my 16-46+ again

I like the WOTW and PULSE movie edge it gives me down in the depths. Sure I lack a little up top, but thats why I'll just get duals. I know it costs more, but thats the price you pay to get deeper and louder... :)

ps....I like the looks and ease of moving of my PC+ a lot better than the 3.3 with its giant turbo....I think it was safe to say Chris felt the same way, but when it comes to subs looks take a little bit of a backseat to the performance (unless WAF is a MAJOR part)


Basically this........if you want the depths and don't mind a little loss in the mid....the 16-46+ is probably your sub.

If you dont mind giving up a little down in the Teens.....then the 3.3 with turbo is probably your subwoofer (or even the 20-39+ due to the small footprint). The master and commander SLAM effect was very very impressive....I know my 16-46+ is probably 2-4db softer in that movie (a guess not an actual measurment) because its so heavily centered frmo 30-50hz (the slight weakness of my 16-46+)

So you would still go with the 16-46+ huh. That says a lot. I had quite a bit of time with an older version of the 16-46+ with the old woofer and liked it quite a bit myself. Did you play any music?

We did use the little rubber mat and still the scene from Pulse was forciing the Turbo out of the slot.

We did play some music but really just for enjoyment. We didn't really test with music too much.

Another note that came to mind was the overall look of the woofer itself. The HSU woofer to me looked kinda "walmart" like (paper cone and a surround that looks even smaller than the NSD woofer) while the PLUS woofer from SVS looks like what we would think a great subwoofer would look like.

That being said LOOKS DIDN'T TELL THE STORY with the HSU woofer. The thing pounded out bass....I was surprised about that. Kinda made me think what the HO woofer looks like compared to the 3.3 woofer...

Brad, after you left, my neighbor came over ans we watched Bad Boys II till 3:00 in the morning. I drank about 8 more beers, and I just woke up. Last night, we figured out a few things. 1. My wife really doesn't care about how it sounds or where the sub goes. 2. I can move over 3 feet onto the couch and gain +3db, that was hilarious. 3. Pulse has the sickest sounding bass track I have heard in a movie, it actually blew my turbo almost out of the back of the sub. 4. Calibrating the sub, makes a world of difference. 5. SVS and HSU make phenominal sounding subwoofers, that are only bulletproof. 6. The Darla scene, when calibrated, and ran to the max of the driver, scared the both of us, but we safely found the limits of the 3.3 with turbo. 7. Coors light goes down easier in a frosty mug. 8. Dr. HSU sends the craziest mix of demo material, that I have heard. 9. I need to rewatch each of my current 200 dvd's again, because of his calibration. 10. My 3.3 with turbo only chuffed when it blew the turbos out of the back of the sub.

For my sized room, I guessed right, with the help of you guys for my sub selection.

Thanks for all your help Brad, let me know when you want me to hit you up. Our spring break starts Good Friday, that whole week is open to me! THanks for the props on the basement.

Thats way cool. I am glad to hear you guys had a good time. Now Brad, when are you going to drive to Colorado Springs to help me set up my sub? I'll introduce you to Ron Stimpson too! :)

Jeff I wish I could bro!

Brad, after you left, my neighbor came over ans we watched Bad Boys II till 3:00 in the morning. I drank about 8 more beers, and I just woke up. Last night, we figured out a few things. 1. My wife really doesn't care about how it sounds or where the sub goes. 2. I can move over 3 feet onto the couch and gain +3db, that was hilarious. 3. Pulse has the sickest sounding bass track I have heard in a movie, it actually blew my turbo almost out of the back of the sub. 4. Calibrating the sub, makes a world of difference. 5. SVS and HSU make phenominal sounding subwoofers, that are only bulletproof. 6. The Darla scene, when calibrated, and ran to the max of the driver, scared the both of us, but we safely found the limits of the 3.3 with turbo. 7. Coors light goes down easier in a frosty mug. 8. Dr. HSU sends the craziest mix of demo material, that I have heard. 9. I need to rewatch each of my current 200 dvd's again, because of his calibration. 10. My 3.3 with turbo only chuffed when it blew the turbos out of the back of the sub.

For my sized room, I guessed right, with the help of you guys for my sub selection.

Thanks for all your help Brad, let me know when you want me to hit you up. Our spring break starts Good Friday, that whole week is open to me! THanks for the props on the basement.


Hey no problem bro, I had a great time. I loved your list, I think you hit the nails on the head!!! I'll give you a heads up and we'll pick a time to do a demo up here, and hell, if there are any other Cleveland area guys interested we could make it a little HT meet Cleveland Style!!! :)

That's weird I didnt have any problem fitting the Turbo on my VTF3 MK3 and cant detect any air leaks ,I dont have it against the wall and it hasnt moved a bit even after demoing Pulse multiple times to friends, the turbo's grip pad that came with it is pretty sticky im surprised your turbo is able to even move at all.

I agree the slam it creates in Master & Commander is impressive in fact it puts my Klipsch RW-12d to shame (which is a 25hz tuned sub already).

So you liked your sub in a smaller & different room better than the hsu in a larger & different room?

I knew your conclusion even before I read the thread.

I wrote this not to upset you but to say just as other HSU owners have said:

One needs to listen in the same room before giving an opinion like yours. I mean do you know what yours would have sounded like in that larger room?????? :confused: :confused: :confused:

BTW I don't care which sub you prefer or what products you recommend.

It was obvious.

Wallmart looking sub? :rolleyes:

So you liked your sub in a smaller & different room better than the hsu in a larger & different room?

I knew your conclusion even before I read the thread.

I wrote this not to upset you but to say just as other HSU owners have said:

One needs to listen in the same room before giving an opinion like yours. I mean do you know what yours would have sounded like in that larger room?????? :confused: :confused: :confused:

BTW I don't care which sub you prefer or what products you recommend.

It was obvious.

Wallmart looking sub? :rolleyes:

you need to stop being so sensitive. i got the impression that he thought the Hsu sub was excellent. do you really need your (obvious) preferences validated by others so badly that you have to come in and crap on an otherwise overwhelmingly positive thread? :rolleyes:

Another note that came to mind was the overall look of the woofer itself. The HSU woofer to me looked kinda "walmart" like (paper cone and a surround that looks even smaller than the NSD woofer) while the PLUS woofer from SVS looks like what we would think a great subwoofer would look like.

That being said LOOKS DIDN'T TELL THE STORY with the HSU woofer. The thing pounded out bass....I was surprised about that. Kinda made me think what the HO woofer looks like compared to the 3.3 woofer...

Here's some 3.3 vs. HO driver shots: Link (http://forum.hsuresearch.com/showpost.php?p=19532&postcount=1)

you need to stop being so sensitive. i got the impression that he thought the Hsu sub was excellent. do you really need your (obvious) preferences validated by others so badly that you have to come in and crap on an otherwise overwhelmingly positive thread? :rolleyes:


How am I sensetive?

I said I knew the outcome even before I read his findings.

Did I not say that I don't care what he recommends or that what people buy?

It isn't my money. It isn't about that.

How hard is it for you to see?

Interestingly, I don't see you defend the MBM in another thread where 2 guys are calling it a gimmick. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

So who is crapping on what?

Even when someone praises an HSU sub, you are still not satisfied. Talk about predictable. Look in the mirror. What a troll.

Seriously....thank you for supporting me guys. This person obviously has some issues.


I said the 3.3 is KICK ASS and would not tell ANYONE to shy away from it.

In defense of Tdekany(actually not really)...I knew Brad's response/review/whatever would be along the same lines...for totally different reasons. The Hsu subs are excellent. Side by side, you can see where design choices differ from their SVS competition...so what. Sonically, they acheive their goal. The rest is subjective. Anyone that upgrades laterally from one to the other, to me, is wasting time and money. There is no definitive winner, just very good bass. This isn't confined just to SVS and Hsu, but other subs in the same price points and higher. The trade offs are very small once you reach a certain plateau. Going to battle based on your flags merits is ridiculous. The time is better spent on dialing in your sub.

It's nice to like what you have...it's very imature to espouse that what you have is the best solution for everyone.

The "bottom feeder" in the Hsu lineup is absolutely the VTF-3 HO ... I hooked it up yesterday, and it is more visceral in the deepest bass than the 3.3 ... I also checked a response curve with the Velo SMS-1 ... and it is flat ... ruler flat ... to 15 Hz.

The problem is they have been out of stock for quite some time.

I wonder if Ed could arrange a trade of my mint PB12-NSD for a 16-46 PC+ ... :)

Ed ... I would pay the difference in the price ... :cool:

Craig that would be soooo cool if you could do that because I know you have more capabilities as far as testing goes.

Ron I'll agree with the point you made and the way you made it. Chris and I both agree that if he bought the SVS he would be happy too. It was not like one was FAR AND ABOVE the other. But like I told Chris...there is no reason AT ALL for him to send back his HSU sub, it was very impressive especially on Master and Commander. For some reason it was amazing on that particular movie. It walked all over my 16-46+. U-571 and JP3 also were very impressive. I am also taking into consideration his larger room size too, but also the fact that there is drywall all around and the fact that he has hardwood flooring in the whole basement. We talked about the acoustic challenes and I think down the line he is giong to consider some bass traps to try to work out some dips and peaks.

If I had the funds right now I'd be ordering a 3.3 with turbo to try for myself in my own room to see how it would work here. I'm just as much a fan of HSU as I am SVS after hearing the 3.3 :D

The "bottom feeder" in the Hsu lineup is absolutely the VTF-3 HO ... I hooked it up yesterday, and it is more visceral in the deepest bass than the 3.3 ... I also checked a response curve with the Velo SMS-1 ... and it is flat ... ruler flat ... to 15 Hz.

The problem is they have been out of stock for quite some time.

I wonder if Ed could arrange a trade of my mint PB12-NSD for a 16-46 PC+ ... :)

Ed ... I would pay the difference in the price ... :cool:

I am assuming that 'bottom feeder' is a good thing Craig? :D

I debated getting dual 3.3's since they are in stock but I decided to be patient for about a month until the HO's are back in stock so that I won't be wondering what I am missing. This is even worse since I sold my previous sub last week, I am running my fronts as large but that only gives me VERY minimal slam.

HSU did tell me that the HO's are on the boat on their way to the states so they are getting closer :(

I debated getting dual 3.3's since they are in stock but I decided to be patient for about a month until the HO's are back in stock so that I won't be wondering what I am missing. This is even worse since I sold my previous sub last week, I am running my fronts as large but that only gives me VERY minimal slam.

I was promised the HO in January and got it in July. It was well worth the weight/wait :).

Maybe these two guys can get together again for a true head to head battle and invite some unbiased folks to the party to assess. Now that would be fun! :D

You can not convince a person to like something when he has certain tastes. I have a friend who likes my svs better than my horn subs. He does not own anything, just a friend. The horns are more powerful, more detailed, and tighter. It does not matter to him. These things are subjective. he likes HSU and SVS now that he has heard them both. He prefers the HSU on some movies and the SVS on other. He likes the low stuff.

If I had an SUV I would have taken my 16-46+ with me no problem.

I mean if Chris can get his 3.3 into a truck or SUV and he wants to bring it I'd be more than happy to run some tests in my living room. I'd also be more than happy to have a couple local AVSers over for some beers and testing.

Guys,

I ordered the 3.3 last week. It is in backorder. I told them I will decide about the turbo when I pick them up ( i am about 20 miles).

So the question now is do i need boost?


Tony

Well I didn't listen to it without the turbo, but honestly I really liked the way the sub sounded with the turbo on. Bass could dig that extra couple hz deeper and the SLAM was def. there throughout the frequency range. I know if I were buying one I'd spend the extra $100 for the turbo.

Guys,

I ordered the 3.3 last week. It is in backorder. I told them I will decide about the turbo when I pick them up ( i am about 20 miles).

So the question now is do i need boost?


Tony

When did they say they expect to have them in?

Guys,

I ordered the 3.3 last week. It is in backorder. I told them I will decide about the turbo when I pick them up ( i am about 20 miles).

So the question now is do i need boost?


Tony

I have a 3.3 w/ Turbo and im still debating if I like it better with or without the Turbo applied, I think the overall need will depend on your main / front speakers and how well they handle 50hz - 100hz bass and how much music you listen to, if its mainly for movies then I'd recommend running with Turbo! With the turbo theres a definite boost in sub 20hz bass but at the same time you lose a little SPL in the rest of the range, there's basically 3 combinations you can run with this sub (without causing damage to it):

1. No turbo, Both ports open and frequency switch set to 25hz - This combo (to me) sounds the best for overall music quality since the midbass "punch" is more aggressive but keep in mind my main / front speakers are lacking in the bass department so I'm dependant on the sub for all types of bass , the sub's lower bass output is still impressive in this mode , it goes lower than my previous Klipsch RW-12d which was also tuned @ 25hz.

2. No turbo, One port plugged and frequency switch set to 18hz (I haven't really messed with this one yet).

3. Turbo applied and freq. switch set to 18hz. - This combo works best when watching movies especially when comparing the Lord of the Rings intro scene (explosion) with and without turbo. but on the other hand with turbo certain songs such as Metallica's "One" loses some "oomph" with the frequent kickdrum heard throughout the song.

I should really test all of this with my SPL meter before coming to conclusions ... but those are my initial impressions so far (by ear). Either way the 3.3 is an awesome sub.

Ive been thinking since my mains are so weak in the bass department I could either get better mains or buy another sub such as the HSU MBM 12. If I bought an MBM12 I'd definately prefer running with the Turbo applied since the MBM would take care of the midbass "punch".

Great post.

I think for the extra $100, I might as well just get it in case I get bored, I can play with the features.

I got 7.1 velodyne cht front rows (5.1 +2) for my surrond. I haven't received yet. It might be my weak spot there. My receiver is going to be onkyo sr604.

Does the grille help protect the driver? I have a little one who is about to walk in a few months. Need to make sure it faces a wall or sofa.


Kevin,

I ordered it last Wednesday and the girl said it would take a few more weeks. Call and bargain with them on the price. They gave me introductory price for the backorder item.



Tony


I have a 3.3 w/ Turbo and im still debating if I like it better with or without the Turbo applied, I think the overall need will depend on your main / front speakers and how well they handle 50hz - 100hz bass and how much music you listen to, if its mainly for movies then I'd recommend running with Turbo! With the turbo theres a definite boost in sub 20hz bass but at the same time you lose a little SPL in the rest of the range, there's basically 3 combinations you can run with this sub (without causing damage to it):

1. No turbo, Both ports open and frequency switch set to 25hz - This combo (to me) sounds the best for overall music quality since the midbass "punch" is more aggressive but keep in mind my main / front speakers are lacking in the bass department so I'm dependant on the sub for all types of bass , the sub's lower bass output is still impressive in this mode , it goes lower than my previous Klipsch RW-12d which was also tuned @ 25hz.

2. No turbo, One port plugged and frequency switch set to 18hz (I haven't really messed with this one yet).

3. Turbo applied and freq. switch set to 18hz. - This combo works best when watching movies especially when comparing the Lord of the Rings intro scene (explosion) with and without turbo. but on the other hand with turbo certain songs such as Metallica's "One" loses some "oomph" with the frequent kickdrum heard throughout the song.

I should really test all of this with my SPL meter before coming to conclusions ... but those are my initial impressions so far (by ear). Either way the 3.3 is an awesome sub.

Ive been thinking since my mains are so weak in the bass department I could either get better mains or buy another sub such as the HSU MBM 12. If I bought an MBM12 I'd definately prefer running with the Turbo applied since the MBM would take care of the midbass "punch".

I have a 3.3 w/ Turbo and im still debating if I like it better with or without the Turbo applied, I think the overall need will depend on your main / front speakers and how well they handle 50hz - 100hz bass and how much music you listen to, if its mainly for movies then I'd recommend running with Turbo! With the turbo theres a definite boost in sub 20hz bass but at the same time you lose a little SPL in the rest of the range, there's basically 3 combinations you can run with this sub (without causing damage to it):




We'll said Mathesar!!! I think this sums it up very well.

1. Get the turbo if you watch movies often.

2. You can probably skip the turbo if you only watch movies occasionally and music listening is a big part of your experience..

Great thread and glad you were able to help another AVS member out. :cool:

bgilly, I know you have SVS' "Plus" sub, but have you heard their entry level "i" subs? I wonder if there is that much more bass missing by downgrading from a Plus to an i (everything else equal, for example, 16-46). I know the amp is a lot less (500-something W vs. 300-something W) with the "i". I'm debating on the cost tradeoffs since dropping almost a grand on a sub (after shipping) may not fit in my budget.

Well actually they don't make the "i" subs anymore.

They are now the NSD subwoofers. (They said the NSD woofer is very similar to the OLD plus sub, the 12.2) The new Plus subs have the 12.3 woofer.

I actually had the PB-12NSD before my current PLUS model and for my bass tastes the better woofer, larger enclosure, 3 ports, and more power all really made a positive improvement for me!!!

But if $900 isn't in your price range then the $600 PB-12NSD is one hell of a subwoofer. I wanted "MORE" so I paid more and got the bigger badder one.

Think of it like this...the PB-12NSD is a BMW 3 Series and the "Plus" series is a BMW 5 series. Both are great subs but the more you spend, the more you get :)


So to really help you out....what is your budget and room size. Also, what are your listening habits (HT vs Music), Listening Levels (Low, Med, Loud, Reference)

Well Chris and I spent about 1-2 hours finding the BEST place for his sub for his main 2 LP. We ran a lot of Freq sweeps and found a great spot, which also happened to please his wife the most!!! :D



Old wise proverb states that "If momma ain't happy... then there ain't NOBODY happy!!!"

Trust me... words to live by....

Well actually they don't make the "i" subs anymore.

They are now the NSD subwoofers. (They said the NSD woofer is very similar to the OLD plus sub, the 12.2) The new Plus subs have the 12.3 woofer.

I actually had the PB-12NSD before my current PLUS model and for my bass tastes the better woofer, larger enclosure, 3 ports, and more power all really made a positive improvement for me!!!

But if $900 isn't in your price range then the $600 PB-12NSD is one hell of a subwoofer. I wanted "MORE" so I paid more and got the bigger badder one.

Think of it like this...the PB-12NSD is a BMW 3 Series and the "Plus" series is a BMW 5 series. Both are great subs but the more you spend, the more you get :)


So to really help you out....what is your budget and room size. Also, what are your listening habits (HT vs Music), Listening Levels (Low, Med, Loud, Reference)
Sorry for the confusion. I meant PCi (http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-cyl-pcpow.cfm) cylinder subs, compared to your upgrraded PC-Plus cylinder sub.

I'd like to stay in the $600 range; obviously I'll also look at HSU. I'd be 50/50 music and movies and prefer to play loud but not enough to rattle my large windows that are in the family room. I have tile floor that will eventually get some rug coverage once I find a nice area rug. My family room is about 2,600 cu. ft. (9' ceiling) that opens to the kitchen toward the rear.

When I'm ready to make the order, I'll have to really decide between their entry level and mid-level subs and also box vs. cylinder. Ditto on the HSU side, such as 3.3 vs. 3.2, turbo vs. no turbo, etc. Ahh, decisions, decisions. :) Thanks.

For $600 I think you would be happy with the 25-31. It wont go much below 22hz, but with your 50% music I think you'll be VERY impressed because it has a lot of output above 25hz!!!

If you want to make sure you cover down to 20hz the 20-39 seems like its your best option. Still very powerful above 20hz, just not AS powerful in the 40-60hz as the 25-31.

With all the subs there are some trade offs. The smaller tubes offer more MID bass while the larger tubes go deeper.

Plus think this way....you can always add a 2nd down the road when funds become avalible and Dual PCI subs would give you more than just a single PC+ for only a litte bit more $ when all is said and done....

So a single PC+ would be about 900 now.....vs 600 now for a PCI and if you need more another 600(although probably less than that because you'd be a returning customer and SVS likes to help those people out)

So $900 vs under $1200....

So the good news is you have lots of options....

I personally love the PC models from SVS because of how easy they are to move around and all of the placement options you have because of the small footprint. Right now my 16-46+ is in a spot that my PB-12NSD could NEVER fit in, and it turns out that this spot is the BEST in the room for the main two LP!!! So without the PC footprint I could have never had this option.....Just something to think about.


One more thing...what is your room size???

OOPPS.....edit....just saw it was 2600 open to a kitchen which is VERY VERY similar to my room set up. (Mine is about 2300 open to a med/large kitchen). I have a feeling the PCI will be good enough for you...

For $600 I think you would be happy with the 25-31. It wont go much below 22hz, but with your 50% music I think you'll be VERY impressed because it has a lot of output above 25hz!!!

If you want to make sure you cover down to 20hz the 20-39 seems like its your best option. Still very powerful above 20hz, just not AS powerful in the 40-60hz as the 25-31.

With all the subs there are some trade offs. The smaller tubes offer more MID bass while the larger tubes go deeper.

Plus think this way....you can always add a 2nd down the road when funds become avalible and Dual PCI subs would give you more than just a single PC+ for only a litte bit more $ when all is said and done....

So a single PC+ would be about 900 now.....vs 600 now for a PCI and if you need more another 600(although probably less than that because you'd be a returning customer and SVS likes to help those people out)

So $900 vs under $1200....

So the good news is you have lots of options....

I personally love the PC models from SVS because of how easy they are to move around and all of the placement options you have because of the small footprint. Right now my 16-46+ is in a spot that my PB-12NSD could NEVER fit in, and it turns out that this spot is the BEST in the room for the main two LP!!! So without the PC footprint I could have never had this option.....Just something to think about.


One more thing...what is your room size???

OOPPS.....edit....just saw it was 2600 open to a kitchen which is VERY VERY similar to my room set up. (Mine is about 2300 open to a med/large kitchen). I have a feeling the PCI will be good enough for you...

Thanks, that's great advice. :cool:

I figured 16-46 would be unequivocally better, but it looks like there are tradeoffs involved since it has to support a wider freq. range (specifically on the low end) than the other 2 subs you mentioned. I just want to make sure that the sub can still play stuff that you can't hear but can feel, such as what you and others have said about "Pulse" DVD (which I haven't seen yet).

BTW, here's (http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/3259/1020061038rq7.jpg) a pic of my family room before I moved in. (9' ceiling, 12" x 12" tiles.) I'd probably put the sub just to the left of the fireplace in that little triangle corner. Hopefully it won't rattle the windows much. :eek: :D

It probably won't be the windows that will give you problems. It will be all the metal-on-metal parts of the fireplace insert. I have my sub right in front of my fireplace and I have put a sheet of 4" rigid insulation to close the opening. I can still hear parts inside rattle on loud passages.

It probably won't be the windows that will give you problems. It will be all the metal-on-metal parts of the fireplace insert. I have my sub right in front of my fireplace and I have put a sheet of 4" rigid insulation to close the opening. I can still hear parts inside rattle on loud passages.
I didn't even think about that, but you're right. The opening of the (gas) fireplace could cause some rattling. :( I wish the house didn't have a fireplace; it's not very HTS friendly. I'll probably throw some insulation like you have in that area since I don't plan to use the FP at all.

The "bottom feeder" in the Hsu lineup is absolutely the VTF-3 HO ... I hooked it up yesterday, and it is more visceral in the deepest bass than the 3.3 ... I also checked a response curve with the Velo SMS-1 ... and it is flat ... ruler flat ... to 15 Hz.

The problem is they have been out of stock for quite some time.

I wonder if Ed could arrange a trade of my mint PB12-NSD for a 16-46 PC+ ... :)

Ed ... I would pay the difference in the price ... :cool:

I was looking into getting an HO but after seeing drhsu's email responses I didnt bother, His response wasnt what I expected at first ..it basically said the 3.3 would be the better choice for most, here's the actual response (copy / paste):

"The VTF-3 MK3 actually have a bit more output in the mid and upper bass compared to the HO. The HO has slightly more deep bass (below 25 Hz). Unless you are an organ fanatic and play Saint Saens organ symphony every day, 99% of program will actually play louder on the MK3 than on the HO. "
"

I responded with this:

" Thats interesting.. I figured since the HO has more power (500w amp vs. 350w on the 3.3) it would have at least the same mid output with the addition of deeper bass, but you would know that answer more than anyone else! I like listening to music as well so perhaps I should just stick with the 3.3, Thanks for the reply."

His response:

"The HO woofer has a much higher moving mass, resulting in significantly lower efficiency, so the increase power was not enough to make up for the efficiency loss."

EDIT: My original question to him was which sub would have the "most bass" or "maximum bass" , I think his response makes more sense when you think of it that way ,The HO focuses more on the less audible wall shaking bass.

Of course you could always get an HO for the super low end and run it along with a more 'musical' sub such as SVS 25-31PC Plus etc. .. So many options ..

Thanks, that's great advice. :cool:

I figured 16-46 would be unequivocally better, but it looks like there are tradeoffs involved since it has to support a wider freq. range (specifically on the low end) than the other 2 subs you mentioned. I just want to make sure that the sub can still play stuff that you can't hear but can feel, such as what you and others have said about "Pulse" DVD (which I haven't seen yet).

BTW, here's (http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/3259/1020061038rq7.jpg) a pic of my family room before I moved in. (9' ceiling, 12" x 12" tiles.) I'd probably put the sub just to the left of the fireplace in that little triangle corner. Hopefully it won't rattle the windows much. :eek: :D


If you are only going to get a single PCI sub I think the 20-39 is the way to go for you. You'll be able to get to that scene in Pulse (although you are not going to be able to get crazy with the volume or output because it is one of the hardest scenes to reproduce!!) You'll also have great mid and high bass and it will perform well on music too!

The good news is the 45 day return policy. If you get the 20-39 and you just think you need a little more, you can return it for the 20-39+ which will give you alot more (More power, More ports, Better woofer). The main thing I found was the 3 ports on the plus vs the single port on the PCI. That makes a HUGE difference with the LOW freq, especially on Pulse, it eliminated port chuffing at the higher master volumes). BUT the improvement comes at a $300 bump in price, so once again you get what you pay for ;)

Man I wish you lived closer than TEXAS, because you could totally just come over and demo my sub to give you an idea. Maybe create a thread asking if there are any Texas owners who live close to you that are willing to do the same.

I was looking into getting an HO but after seeing drhsu's email responses I didnt bother, His response wasnt what I expected at first ..it basically said the 3.3 would be the better choice for most, here's the actual response (copy / paste):

"The VTF-3 MK3 actually have a bit more output in the mid and upper bass compared to the HO. The HO has slightly more deep bass (below 25 Hz). Unless you are an organ fanatic and play Saint Saens organ symphony every day, 99% of program will actually play louder on the MK3 than on the HO. "
"

I responded with this:

" Thats interesting.. I figured since the HO has more power (500w amp vs. 350w on the 3.3) it would have at least the same mid output with the addition of deeper bass, but you would know that answer more than anyone else! I like listening to music as well so perhaps I should just stick with the 3.3, Thanks for the reply."

His response:

"The HO woofer has a much higher moving mass, resulting in significantly lower efficiency, so the increase power was not enough to make up for the efficiency loss."

EDIT: My original question to him was which sub would have the "most bass" or "maximum bass" , I think his response makes more sense when you think of it that way ,The HO focuses more on the less audible wall shaking bass.

Of course you could always get an HO for the super low end and run it along with a more 'musical' sub such as SVS 25-31PC Plus etc. .. So many options ..


Mathesar,

That may have been the good ol' doctor's reply to your question, but be aware this will vary from one ROOM to another. As I found out, my results were different than what Dr. Hsu thought you would expect from each sub.

In my case, I bought both the 3.3 and HO (with Turbo...) for my own audition, in my room. Both subs were setup and calibrated exactly alike. I tested the HO first (no Turbo, 22Hz native tune), the 3.3 (no Turbo, 22Hz native tune), then tested with no Turbo - one port plug, max extension for each sub respectively. Finally, I ran the same DVD and music material on each sub with Turbo in max extension. I found that 3.3 did not play any louder in the midbass than the HO in any of the configurations, both played just as loud, but the HO definitely had the edge in the "< 25Hz" region, simply louder, more visceral.

So back to Hsu went the 3.3 and the HO stayed home with me. :)

If you are only going to get a single PCI sub I think the 20-39 is the way to go for you. You'll be able to get to that scene in Pulse (although you are not going to be able to get crazy with the volume or output because it is one of the hardest scenes to reproduce!!) You'll also have great mid and high bass and it will perform well on music too!

The good news is the 45 day return policy. If you get the 20-39 and you just think you need a little more, you can return it for the 20-39+ which will give you alot more (More power, More ports, Better woofer). The main thing I found was the 3 ports on the plus vs the single port on the PCI. That makes a HUGE difference with the LOW freq, especially on Pulse, it eliminated port chuffing at the higher master volumes). BUT the improvement comes at a $300 bump in price, so once again you get what you pay for ;)

Man I wish you lived closer than TEXAS, because you could totally just come over and demo my sub to give you an idea. Maybe create a thread asking if there are any Texas owners who live close to you that are willing to do the same.
I see what you're saying. So basically a 20-39 PC-Plus would be noticeably better (louder) than a 20-39 PCi and about 50% more price. Two 20-39 PCis would be even better, but obviously 100% more price than one 20-39 PCi. So I can get the entry level 20-39 and see how that goes and then perhaps I'll want to add another one. Or I can get the mid-level 20-39 and that should satisfy me for years to come. I see my choices and understand them. Now I just need to make one. I'm still also considering HSU in my short list.

I appreciate it if I was in OH, that you'd be willing to demo your equipment. I will search the TX area threads to see if there are other owners willing to let other members audition their speakers and subs. That would be pretty neat. I wouldn't mind taking the hike to Dallas for this (I live in Fort Worth). :)

I'd probably put the sub just to the left of the fireplace in that little triangle corner. Hopefully it won't rattle the windows much. :eek: :D

So basically a 20-39 PC-Plus would be noticeably better (louder) than a 20-39 PCi and about 50% more price. Two 20-39 PCis would be even better, but obviously 100% more price than one 20-39 PCi. So I can get the entry level 20-39 and see how that goes and then perhaps I'll want to add another one. Or I can get the mid-level 20-39 and that should satisfy me for years to come.


Judging by this statement and then looking at the picture I think the PC would look pretty sweet in that corner and be a nicer placement option as opposed to a larger box like the PB-10 or PB-12 (which is pretty damn big) Even the HSU 3.3 is very large, so I'm assuming the 2.3 and the 3.2 are going to be pretty good size as well and take up a larger chunk of space than the PC with its small 16inch diameter footprint.

Not to mention the weight. 75lbs for the PB-12nsd vs only 60 for the 20-39. 15lb difference actually makes moving it MUCH easier!


And you are right on with your breakdown of your options.

Dual 20-39pci are best but cost the most
Single 20-39+ is very good cost in the middle
Single 20-39 is good and saves you the most money

Judging by this statement and then looking at the picture I think the PC would look pretty sweet in that corner and be a nicer placement option as opposed to a larger box like the PB-10 or PB-12 (which is pretty damn big) Even the HSU 3.3 is very large, so I'm assuming the 2.3 and the 3.2 are going to be pretty good size as well and take up a larger chunk of space than the PC with its small 16inch diameter footprint.

Not to mention the weight. 75lbs for the PB-12nsd vs only 60 for the 20-39. 15lb difference actually makes moving it MUCH easier!


And you are right on with your breakdown of your options.

Dual 20-39pci are best but cost the most
Single 20-39+ is very good cost in the middle
Single 20-39 is good and saves you the most money


bgillyjcu!

You are beginning to sound like a customer rep for svs. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

You are not getting paid for all this are you?

I personally think you are doing this out of your kind heart.

I like it!!!!!!!!!!!

bgillyjcu!

You are beginning to sound like a customer rep for svs. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

You are not getting paid for all this are you?

I personally think you are doing this out of your kind heart.

I like it!!!!!!!!!!!

he's the SVS rep
aren't you the HSU rep? :rolleyes:

not trying to be an AH, but I just found it a bit funny.

LMOA!!

Trust me if HSU or if I knew anyone else offered a PC like SVS did I would have mentioned them.

I honestly think its hard to beat the PC offerings for SVS when it comes to WAF (provided you can hide it behind the couch or behind the TV or something), and easy of transporting and moving the subwoofer.\

I know my 16-46+ is way easier to lug around than my old pb-12nsd...

bgilly, you mentioned you couldn't take your PC sub to Chris' house b/c you don't have an SUV. Wouldn't it just fit in the backseats of a car and maybe even a normal size trunk? If all you have is a roadster, I understand.

bgilly, you mentioned you couldn't take your PC sub to Chris' house b/c you don't have an SUV. Wouldn't it just fit in the backseats of a car and maybe even a normal size trunk? If all you have is a roadster, I understand.


Well the sub is 46inches long and wouldn't be too easy to get into my back seat. Plus I'm a little anal about my car. I did kind of buy a nice car for myself and I don't really like to put heavy bulky things in the back seat for fear of harming the leather...

If I had the 25-31+ or the 20-39+ it would be easier because of the smaller unit and I'd be able to get it in and out of the car easier too...

But hey....Chris can bring the 3.3 to my place if he wants. I have a sweet spot in the corner open for it :D

Of course you could always get an HO for the super low end and run it along with a more 'musical' sub such as SVS 25-31PC Plus etc. .. So many options ..Wow that's the first time I've heard a SVS decribed as "more musical" than a Hsu. The Hsu subs are known for being very musical. just read the reviews people like Craigsub has done on the HO and how musical it is.

I think he meant the bass tune is higher and therefore suited more for music than movies.

Right now, I really am undecided between the HO and the 3.3. I listen 50/50 (music/movies).

Tony

The 3.3 with turbo really did sound great to me. I don't know how much more the HO can really offer considering its the same exact box and turbo design.

Just a better woofer with more power.....so you'll get more SPL...the question is....is a few db more output worth the extra cash to you?

I have a 3.3 w/ Turbo and im still debating if I like it better with or without the Turbo applied, I think the overall need will depend on your main / front speakers and how well they handle 50hz - 100hz bass and how much music you listen to, if its mainly for movies then I'd recommend running with Turbo! With the turbo theres a definite boost in sub 20hz bass but at the same time you lose a little SPL in the rest of the range, there's basically 3 combinations you can run with this sub (without causing damage to it):

1. No turbo, Both ports open and frequency switch set to 25hz - This combo (to me) sounds the best for overall music quality since the midbass "punch" is more aggressive but keep in mind my main / front speakers are lacking in the bass department so I'm dependant on the sub for all types of bass , the sub's lower bass output is still impressive in this mode , it goes lower than my previous Klipsch RW-12d which was also tuned @ 25hz.

2. No turbo, One port plugged and frequency switch set to 18hz (I haven't really messed with this one yet).

3. Turbo applied and freq. switch set to 18hz. - This combo works best when watching movies especially when comparing the Lord of the Rings intro scene (explosion) with and without turbo. but on the other hand with turbo certain songs such as Metallica's "One" loses some "oomph" with the frequent kickdrum heard throughout the song.

I should really test all of this with my SPL meter before coming to conclusions ... but those are my initial impressions so far (by ear). Either way the 3.3 is an awesome sub.

Ive been thinking since my mains are so weak in the bass department I could either get better mains or buy another sub such as the HSU MBM 12. If I bought an MBM12 I'd definately prefer running with the Turbo applied since the MBM would take care of the midbass "punch".


Mathesar,

Continuing our conversation after you PM'd me, I really like the idea of you getting a MBM-12 and running your 3.3 with the Turbo in max extension, instead of getting a HO altogether. I think for your room, the 3.3 with Turbo + MBM-12 is a better way to go.

The 3.3 with turbo really did sound great to me. I don't know how much more the HO can really offer considering its the same exact box and turbo design.

Just a better woofer with more power.....so you'll get more SPL...the question is....is a few db more output worth the extra cash to you?

Same can be said about the SVS tubes. Going from a NSD to the Plus series. Is the better woofer and power worth the extra coin? Same size tube lol. Just Teasing :D

Later, Daman

Same can be said about the SVS tubes. Going from a NSD to the Plus series. Is the better woofer and power worth the extra coin? Same size tube lol. Just Teasing :D

Later, Daman

Well you are teasing but you are actually totally wrong.

The Tubes differ greatly in the fact that the port area increases greatly on the plus series tubes.

The PCI has a single 3inch port, vs the PLUS having three 3inch ports. So there actually is a functional change in the line up.


The 3.3 and HO share the same box with the same turbo attachment with the same port area. The difference is only in the Woofer and the Amp from what I understand.

Wow that's the first time I've heard a SVS decribed as "more musical" than a Hsu. The Hsu subs are known for being very musical. just read the reviews people like Craigsub has done on the HO and how musical it is.

Ah well Ive never heard any SVS subs I was just going by the frequency tuning of that particular model (25hz), my Klipsch RW-12d was 25hz tuned and sounded really good for music ,same goes for my HSU 3.3 when set to 25hz (without turbo).

Well you are teasing but you are actually totally wrong.

The Tubes differ greatly in the fact that the port area increases greatly on the plus series tubes.

The PCI has a single 3inch port, vs the PLUS having three 3inch ports. So there actually is a functional change in the line up.


The 3.3 and HO share the same box with the same turbo attachment with the same port area. The difference is only in the Woofer and the Amp from what I understand.

Isn't having a different amp and woofer enough to make the 2 sound different? Based on Craig's review, who got to test them both in the same room, he thought the HO still sounded better. ;)

Don't mind me, I am biased since I ordered dual HO's instead of dual 3.3's :D

Isn't having a different amp and woofer enough to make the 2 sound different? Based on Craig's review, who got to test them both in the same room, he thought the HO still sounded better. ;)

Don't mind me, I am biased since I ordered dual HO's instead of dual 3.3's :D


The HO will be better because of the Amp and Woofer no doubt.

I just was saying the box and port area remain the same for both of the subwoofers.

If someone has the extra cash I'd get the HO....but if you are on a tight budget and you can only afford the 3.3 I wouldn't worry too much because its not like you are going to be losing A LOT.

The step from a 16-46PCI to a 16-46+ is a much larger jump in performance than say the 3.3 with turbo to the HO with turbo. I guess thats my point. (Not trying to compare the subs at all....just giving an example)

Well the sub is 46inches long and wouldn't be too easy to get into my back seat. Plus I'm a little anal about my car. I did kind of buy a nice car for myself and I don't really like to put heavy bulky things in the back seat for fear of harming the leather...

If I had the 25-31+ or the 20-39+ it would be easier because of the smaller unit and I'd be able to get it in and out of the car easier too...

But hey....Chris can bring the 3.3 to my place if he wants. I have a sweet spot in the corner open for it :D
I hear you about trying to transport a big sub in a nice and small car. If I had to move a 4' long cylinder sub, I'm thinking maybe I could toss a blanket in the back seats and put it on there. Or maybe put my front passenger seat all the way back and stand it upright, perhaps using the seatbelt and pillows so that it doesn't move around as I drive.

Well you are teasing but you are actually totally wrong.

The Tubes differ greatly in the fact that the port area increases greatly on the plus series tubes.

The PCI has a single 3inch port, vs the PLUS having three 3inch ports. So there actually is a functional change in the line up.


The 3.3 and HO share the same box with the same turbo attachment with the same port area. The difference is only in the Woofer and the Amp from what I understand.

Just a correction. The PCi series have single 4" ports not 3". Main difference in the PCi and plus series is the plus series has the ability to tune to lower frequencies, along with a more powerful amp and better woofer.

Just a correction. The PCi series have single 4" ports not 3". Main difference in the PCi and plus series is the plus series has the ability to tune to lower frequencies, along with a more powerful amp and better woofer.


Thanks for the correction. Sometimes I type so fast my fingers are ahead of my brain.

Either way a single 4inch port cannot compete with the air moving ability of Triple 3 inch ports... :D

I said I knew the outcome even before I read his findings.

So who is crapping on what?

I am glad you claim to be the AVS psychic, we all know how much credibility psychics have!!! :p :p :p

Who's pooping who now??? ;) ;) ;)