Dish took Universal HD to true h.264 at a HDLITE resolution of 1440x1080i.

Not that UniversalHD had left much bandwidth on their distribution once it added Chiller to their Distribution Mux, its the final nail in the coffin for E* even attempting to call themselves a HD Leader.

Between new mpeg encoders that a full of errors on HBO-HD and SHO-HD, HDNET/Movies at 1440x1080i and horrid bitrates....its been fun while it lasted, but you are truly are no friend to HD.

So long E*. You are now the EDTV leader.

R.I.P.

Eh, I'm new to this, how does that compare to DirecTV? How about the remaining 24 or so HD channels? Are all of the Dish HD channels being encoded at that resolution?

Eh, I'm new to this, how does that compare to DirecTV?DirecTV downconverts their HDTV from 1920x1080i to 1280x1080i, otherwise known as "HDTV Lite."

So which is the best service to get for sat/cable HD? I had thought it was DISH.

1440 * 1080 = 1555200

1280 * 1080 = 1382400

Dish is 12.5% better. :D

So which is the best service to get for sat/cable HD? I had thought it was DISH.The best picture, in most cases, is obtained with cable.

Some people are led by the Dish/DirecTV marketing campaign to believe that they will get a better picture than cable, when the opposite is true in most circumstances. Dish and DirecTV are not the best options to get a high quality picture on your new TV, although for many people in smaller markets and/or rural areas, it is the only option.

Both Dish Network and DirecTV downconvert their SD from 640x480 and 704x480 to 480x480. Both also downconvert their HDTV from 1920x1080 to 1440x1080 or 1280x1080. Dish and DirecTV degrade their channels in this way as it allows them to put more channels on their systems, i.e. quality is traded for quantity.

By comparison, most cable providers downconvert their digital channels from 640x480 to 528x480 or 544x480 (depending on the system). Some other smaller cable providers pass through the full 640x480 and 704x480 resolution, but that is more the exception than the norm. Even at a given resolution, compression levels vary widely from one provider to the next, and from one system to the next, so SD quality on the Comcast system in N. VA may be superior to the SD quality on the Comcast system in DC, even though both use the same 528x480 resolution. In general though, digital cable offers better SD quality than you get via satellite, and in some cases, superior quality.

Satellite wasn't always like this. Back when Dish and DirecTV first launched, they both used 640x480 for SD without downconversion. When both launched HD channels, they passed the full resolution of those channels as well. Unfortunately, those days are long gone.

yes...but D* is WAY ahead of E* on positive press releases, no channels yet but plenty of press releases... :D

yes...but D* is WAY ahead of E* on positive press releases, no channels yet but plenty of press releases... :D

Yes, D* can only get better - E* is on a crash and burn.

Yes, D* can only get better - E* is on a crash and burn.

I thought that was D*, crash and burn into million pieces at the bottom of the ocean. ? :D

I thought that was D*, crash and burn into million pieces at the bottom of the ocean. ? :D
No, not at all. One of the launch platforms they use was damaged, but the sats were not even there, are fine, and will probably go up as scheduled.

Yes, D* can only get better - E* is on a crash and burn.

Well...at least you admit by phrasing your comment in the future tense that your bold statement regarding the present situation is untrue and definitely premature...

Because at the present time:
1) D* still has no new channels.
2) E* still has more channels.
3) Inspite of the res reduction, the PQ is still better than E* and documented as such in this very thread.
4) E* is not dead, crashed, burned, or whatever.
5) D* is not better.

Save the BS fanboy rah-rah for when you actually have something to cheer about... :D

I promise you, when and if E* does crash and burn, when and if E* is truly dead...I will be the FIRST one with the shovel...but now? Its not even close, and D* has done nothing and is still monthes away from doing anything...

What about FIOS TV? Do they downconvert their HD and SD signals?

Well...at least you admit by phrasing your comment in the future tense that your bold statement regarding the present situation is untrue and definitely premature...

Because at the present time:
1) D* still has no new channels.
2) E* still has more channels.
3) Inspite of the res reduction, the PQ is still better than E* and documented as such in this very thread.
4) E* is not dead, crashed, burned, or whatever.
5) D* is not better.

Save the BS fanboy rah-rah for when you actually have something to cheer about... :D

I promise you, when and if E* does crash and burn, when and if E* is truly dead...I will be the FIRST one with the shovel...but now? Its not even close, and D* has done nothing and is still monthes away from doing anything...


Every step E* has done has been backwards - D* can't take any more backward steps and by signing who they have signed, they are taking forward steps.

E* still doesn't have the bandwidth or satellites - nor will they any time in the future.

E* still doesn't have the bandwidth or satellites - nor will they any time in the future.

...Settle down there, Edgar Cayce...you have no way of knowing that...pure emotional speculation on your part and nothing more...E* is already on the record as having launches scheduled...

I don't know where you are coming from with this nonsense, but your statement is obviously pre-mature. I don't even know why you felt compelled to make it unless you just felt like causing trouble (again)...you emotionally attack E* as if Charlie Ergen himself ran over your pet cat in his brand new Mercades... :D

For what its worth, Ergan has already gone on record stating, with regard to the whole D* "dance of 100 channels" thing, that they plan on remaining competitive with D* based on price points. Now I for one, took that as a copout on E*'s part taking that statement to mean (I'm paraphrasing) "we won't have 100 channels, but we'll be cheap!"...lol...

Now don't get me wrong here...the price points will appeal to some people who just want the basics. E* can potentally thrive very well on that basis as they have for YEARS on that basis. But will that strategy appeal to HD elitists like ourselves? Definitely not! But E* is in no way dead, and nor should you be in any hurry to bury them...at least not yet. When I turn on my HDTV I still have around 30 channels to watch. D* still does not. Press releases and signings don't mean a thing until you are actually WATCHING the content on your big screen...until then, its all pointless rabble...

What about FIOS TV? Do they downconvert their HD and SD signals?FiOS appears to downconvert their SD cable channels to 528x480, but doesn't touch their HD. FiOS is probably as good as it gets right now in terms of high-definition PQ, but that service is only available to a small percentage of the population. Comcast also offers excellent high-definition picture quality in most (750+MHz) areas.

Most other cable companies use stat mux which degrades their high-definition to varying degrees, but none (aside from perhaps Charter) degrade their signals as much as the satellite companies.

...Settle down there, Edgar Cayce...you have no way of knowing that...pure emotional speculation on your part and nothing more...E* is already on the record as having launches scheduled...



Oh really, why don't you list us the new satellite orbital positions/transponder space that they have opening up????

In fact, they are LOOSING a number of their transponders on 129W in the near future.

Seem you are the one blowing smoke.



I don't know where you are coming from with this nonsense, but your statement is obviously pre-mature. I don't even know why you felt compelled to make it unless you just felt like causing trouble (again)...you emotionally attack E* as if Charlie Ergen himself ran over your pet cat in his brand new Mercades... :D

For what its worth, Ergan has already gone on record stating, with regard to the whole D* "dance of 100 channels" thing, that they plan on remaining competitive with D* based on price points. Now I for one, took that as a copout on E*'s part taking that statement to mean (I'm paraphrasing) "we won't have 100 channels, but we'll be cheap!"...lol...

Now don't get me wrong here...the price points will appeal to some people who just want the basics. E* can potentally thrive very well on that basis as they have for YEARS on that basis. But will that strategy appeal to HD elitists like ourselves? Definitely not! But E* is in no way dead, and nor should you be in any hurry to bury them...at least not yet. When I turn on my HDTV I still have around 30 channels to watch. D* still does not. Press releases and signings don't mean a thing until you are actually WATCHING the content on your big screen...until then, its all pointless rabble...


Again, 2 years ago on E* I could watch 8+ HD MPEG2 Channels at a full 1920x1080i error free with a Video Bandwidth around 17Mbps or more.

Today I can watch 0 on E*. Z E R O.

A decrease of 100%.

E = EDTV

R.I.P.

Dish took Universal HD to true h.264 at a HDLITE resolution of 1440x1080i.

Not that UniversalHD had left much bandwidth on their distribution once it added Chiller to their Distribution Mux, its the final nail in the coffin for E* even attempting to call themselves a HD Leader.

Between new mpeg encoders that a full of errors on HBO-HD and SHO-HD, HDNET/Movies at 1440x1080i and horrid bitrates....its been fun while it lasted, but you are truly are no friend to HD.

So long E*. You are now the EDTV leader.

R.I.P.
But D* is the EDTV leader at 1280x1080i.

But D* is the EDTV leader at 1280x1080i.

Unless you have directview CRT or crt projector or a $20k display (OK, maybe $10k with some technologies) you aren't going to see much more than 1388 by 766 anyway. Even if 1920 x 1080 was sent, 1388 x 766 doesn't equal 1920 x 1080, no matter how you slice it.

So if you want to get technical about it, 1440 x 1080 still exceeds what 80% of most displays in homes can show. I am not saying it is right, but that is the facts of the situation.

more foxeng NONSENSE. He totally ignores the fact that 1/3 of the picture information is flushed down the toilet with D* and the effects of this are visible across the entire screen. I am sick of hearing this lame IGNORANT arguement. I think ole Foxy should go over to the BD and HD DVD forums and tell everyone not to waste their money because unless they have a 20k dollar projector, D*'s picture looks just as good. :rolleyes:

Oh really, why don't you list us the new satellite orbital positions/transponder space that they have opening up????

Look them up yourself! The launch schedules for the coming years were posted right here in this forum! If you missed them, thats not my fault...and I'm not going to do the research for you when its you with the bold and inaccurate point to prove. Its not my job to teach you. :cool:

In fact, they are LOOSING a number of their transponders on 129W in the near future.

"Near Future"? More speculation? Maybe they will, maybe they won't...but only one thing is certain....THEY HAVEN'T YET !

(you really do think your Edgar Cayce...)

Seem you are the one blowing smoke.

I'm not the one who claims to have a crystal ball! :D


Again, 2 years ago on E* I could watch 8+ HD MPEG2 Channels at a full 1920x1080i error free with a Video Bandwidth around 17Mbps or more.

Today I can watch 0 on E*. Z E R O.

A decrease of 100%.

E = EDTV

Ok...I got it...now explain to me how this make E* dead, or somehow better than D* who'd been at 100% all along, and worse resolution and bandwidth all along?

R.I.P.

If you are wishing to bury your argument, than you've succeeded...R.I.P.

Well...at least you admit by phrasing your comment in the future tense that your bold statement regarding the present situation is untrue and definitely premature...

Because at the present time:
1) D* still has no new channels.
2) E* still has more channels.
3) Inspite of the res reduction, the PQ is still better than E* and documented as such in this very thread.
4) E* is not dead, crashed, burned, or whatever.
5) D* is not better.

Save the BS fanboy rah-rah for when you actually have something to cheer about... :D

I promise you, when and if E* does crash and burn, when and if E* is truly dead...I will be the FIRST one with the shovel...but now? Its not even close, and D* has done nothing and is still monthes away from doing anything...

Talk about fanboy rah-rah.

how can you say D* has nothing? is that because they don't carry the extremely low-rated VOOM channels that even their owner Cablevision doesn't put on its own system (NOT EVEN 1 of the channels).?

You better believe that if DISH didn't have to make a programming committment with Dolan in order to buy his VOOM satellite - that even DISH wouldn't have those channels on - if they had their free choice they would have more mainstream HD programming on that bird.

D* offers HD lils to far more subs than E*. Seems like you don't take these into your consideration or argument either. The HD lils are the MOST watched channels in EVERY market, most people would rather have their HD locals than VOOM also.

D* has a way superior sports HD offering (now including baseball). I am willing to wager more people are watching NFL ST SF than watch ANY VOOM channel. On a football Sunday while I watch the Patriots crush the Steelers in HD, you can watch KungFU in HD - I'll take football ANY DAY.

Anyway, I am not knocking E*, it is just NOT carryingthe type of HD channels that interest me. Even if they added 50 more channels that DIDN'T interest me, in my eyes D* has the better HD offering (not more channels).

I wonder what the bitrate is on E* HDPPV channel 9467, the NHL CI HD games I recieve with the package look pretty decent. I think the channel is still 1920x1080

Talk about fanboy rah-rah.

Nope...just a statement of the facts to successfully 'discredit' the fanboy rah-rah...

All I did was point out the way things are NOW, to point out the opening comment as being very premature and incorrect. And I've done that.

how can you say D* has nothing? is that because they don't carry the extremely low-rated VOOM channels that even their owner Cablevision doesn't put on its own system (NOT EVEN 1 of the channels).?

I said nothing NEW! NEW being the key word here...as of yet...today...regardless of all the rah-rah and press releases...D* has nothing NEW. Get it? If your going to attempt to quote me...do it right... :p

You better believe that if DISH didn't have to make a programming committment with Dolan in order to buy his VOOM satellite - that even DISH wouldn't have those channels on - if they had their free choice they would have more mainstream HD programming on that bird.

We have prophets predicting the future, and now we have psychics reading Dolan's mind? :p ...all i'm doing is pointing out the obvious...what we really know, and what we really don't know...(which isn't much all the way around...:D )

D* offers HD lils to far more subs than E*. Seems like you don't take these into your consideration or argument either. The HD lils are the MOST watched channels in EVERY market, most people would rather have their HD locals than VOOM also.

Is this another HD-lil sensitivity speech? What does this have to do with E* being alive or dead?

D* has a way superior sports HD offering (now including baseball). I am willing to wager more people are watching NFL ST SF than watch ANY VOOM channel. On a football Sunday while I watch the Patriots crush the Steelers in HD, you can watch KungFU in HD - I'll take football ANY DAY.

Have you even seen a Voom channel yet by which you base your magnificient opinions? For those of use that either don't like football, or enjoy our football in moderation, we would rather have Voom...deal with it...like I've said before, my GF is an art history student and personally loves GalleryHD. Granted its not for everyone...but neither is football...


Anyway, I am not knocking E*, it is just NOT carryingthe type of HD channels that interest me. Even if they added 50 more channels that DIDN'T interest me, in my eyes D* has the better HD offering (not more channels).

And its no different than what they've always had for the past year or so...and thats the only statement I've made here regarding D*.

I said nothing NEW! NEW being the key word here...as of yet...today...regardless of all the rah-rah and press releases...D* has nothing NEW. Get it? If your going to attempt to quote me...do it right... :p*
'
I'm guessing the MLB EI SuperFan isn't NEW to you.



Have you even seen a Voom channel yet by which you base your magnificient opinions? For those of use that either don't like football, or enjoy our football in moderation, we would rather have Voom...deal with it...like I've said before, my GF is an art history student and personally loves GalleryHD. Granted its not for everyone...but neither is football...*

Well- actually I have seen Voom - my next door neighbor has DISH. Lots of repeats. But I clearly said I prefer the D* sports stuff NOT that YOU do. And what I said really was that the FACT is that those Voom channels are LOW-RATED. I'm glad you like them, but they are low-rated. Not even close to the rating of a HD lil channel.

'
I'm guessing the MLB EI SuperFan isn't NEW to you.

Its not...only the exclusive nature of it is new (and ethically questionable) ...



Well- actually I have seen Voom - my next door neighbor has DISH. Lots of repeats. But I clearly said I prefer the D* sports stuff NOT that YOU do. And what I said really was that the FACT is that those Voom channels are LOW-RATED. I'm glad you like them, but they are low-rated. Not even close to the rating of a HD lil channel.

You must spend a lot of time by your neighbors house if your catching repeats... :D (I knew it, a closet E* viewer in the D* camp...:D )

Now...explain how you are 'rating' the voom channels vs. an HD-lil channel in order to make your statement, so I can better understand your basis for comparison. Thanks.

Its not...only the exclusive nature of it is new (and ethically questionable) ...




You must spend a lot of time by your neighbors house if your catching repeats... :D (I knew it, a closet E* viewer in the D* camp...:D )

Now...explain how you are 'rating' the voom channels vs. an HD-lil channel in order to make your statement, so I can better understand your basis for comparison. Thanks.

Well its certainly well known fact that the big 4 networks have the highest viewership.

But as far as VOOM, its a bit of speculation, but based on certain facts that make it very realistic. VOOM is ONLY on DISH, only for HD subs - the total viewership BASE is a drop in the bucket of total U.S. Households. That alone means that even if EVERY single DISH customer with VOOM was watching (and there are 15 of those channels right), the ratings would be miniscule next to a TNT-HD, or NBC-HD, or ESPN-Hd, etc. as those channels are available in many millions more homes.

As far as MLB SuperFan - yes it is new, there are 2 channels for it (last year was 1), but I guess there is no diference between 1 channel or 2 channels.

I cancelled D* over the summer after about 5 years of service. Had E* installed and really like the hd offerings they have. Monstershd is the best. I am also a big football fan and had ST for those years with D*. With the price jumping on ST every year,broken promises, and the creator of HDlite I couldn't honestly give them my money. I am semi happy with E* but now they have followed D*s lead on hdlite I might cancel them also. I have a qam tuner to pick up comcast locals. They have Discoveryhd in the clear. I was floored to see how much better it looks than with D* and E*. Hdlite really sucks. (Foxing) I can see a huge difference on my 720p projector.

Also, more importantly than re-hashing this 2 year old argument - is the fact that there will be no real argument as to who has the best overall HD offering within 6 months.

Not only will D* have a lock on HD sports programming - but they will have by far the most robust HD national offering. And yes it is still in the future, but it is VERY near. So, there will be no need to have a trade-off in deciding if you want the provider with the FAR SUPERIOR HD sports offering, or the provider with more HD channels.

Remember this one fact. When the birds are up and running - DISH will have its HD nationals and so will DirecTV, but............DISH WILL NOT HAVE NFL, OR MLB, OR MEGA MADNESS, etc.

So, this back and forth will continue for a little while longer I guess.

Well its certainly well known fact that the big 4 networks have the highest viewership.

But as far as VOOM, its a bit of speculation, but based on certain facts that make it very realistic. VOOM is ONLY on DISH, only for HD subs - the total viewership BASE is a drop in the bucket of total U.S. Households. That alone means that even if EVERY single DISH customer with VOOM was watching (and there are 15 of those channels right), the ratings would be miniscule next to a TNT-HD, or NBC-HD, or ESPN-Hd, etc. as those channels are available in many millions more homes.

As far as MLB SuperFan - yes it is new, there are 2 channels for it (last year was 1), but I guess there is no diference between 1 channel or 2 channels.

there is so much speculation and conjecture here its not even worthy of comment...

As for the one more channel for MLB? You've got to be kidding...your reaching here...really, really reaching...

MLB is just a clever marketing ploy, nothing more...and its certianly isn't NEW!!

Yes but will the new HD channels be at FULL resolution when the new sattelltes light up?

I said nothing NEW! NEW being the key word here...as of yet...today...regardless of all the rah-rah and press releases...D* has nothing NEW. Get it? If your going to attempt to quote me...do it right... :p
Not to defend D*, but....

...in defense of D*, they did say 2007 would be when they would begin offering more national channels in HD. According to my calendar, it's still 2007. They still have 9 months left to make good on that promise.

Yes but will the new HD channels be at FULL resolution when the new sattelltes light up?
Only D* knows. The current trend says no, but there's nothing saying they won't be. The fact that they think their quality is the best now doesn't mean they won't consider it even better later. "The Best" is a sliding scale. You can be the best, but still not be perfect. That would be the "get out of HDLite jail free" card they could use to improve quality without admitting they weren't "the best" all along.

Also, more importantly than re-hashing this 2 year old argument - is the fact that there will be no real argument as to who has the best overall HD offering within 6 months..

Thanks for your comment...6 monthes is 6 monthes...you've helped prove my point regarding the original post that any claims of E* being dead or D* being superior at this point in time are grossly premature and thus downright false.

Not only will D* have a lock on HD sports programming - but they will have by far the most robust HD national offering. And yes it is still in the future, but it is VERY near. So, there will be no need to have a trade-off in deciding if you want the provider with the FAR SUPERIOR HD sports offering, or the provider with more HD channels. .

And I do hope your right about that national offering, if D* is as great as they say its going to be, I'll be the first one to switch, but for now? They still are woefully lacking and I can thankfully I can patiently wait for them to deliver while watching my current lineup of 30+ channels.

As far as the sports offering, so long as they don't sacrifice the national HD lineup to make room for it like they have in the past, its all fine by me.

Remember this one fact. When the birds are up and running - DISH will have its HD nationals and so will DirecTV, but............DISH WILL NOT HAVE NFL, OR MLB, OR MEGA MADNESS, etc..

I'm sure Dish subs who enjoy their regular HD programming will be grateful that they don't have that overpriced, overhyped marketting trash stealing thier bandwidth! :D

So, this back and forth will continue for a little while longer I guess.

Not really...like I said, I can afford to be patient and skeptical regarding D*, because at this point in time I'm satisfied with E* and there is nothing better out there at this time. If D* is finally 'all that' when they come around, so be it. I'll be more excited than you are, probably. But D* subs prematurely burying E* and touting the excellence of their product based on press releases and over-priced sports packages? Well, thats just the pent up frustration of the waiting game. I was fortunate to avoid that waiting game. I got out when it was good, and am in excellent position to switch again if its worth it. No hype and rah-rah here...just "show me the money!" :cool:

there is so much speculation and conjecture here its not even worthy of comment...

As for the one more channel for MLB? You've got to be kidding...your reaching here...really, really reaching...

MLB is just a clever marketing ploy, nothing more...and its certianly isn't NEW!!

There is some speculating, some conjecture, and lots of fact. The viewership for network shows are in the multi-millions (or else they are dropped). The total number of households that even have VOOM is what? A million give or take? There is NO WAY those channels can have substantial ratings. You probably don't want to comment - because what it says in this paragraph is TRUE.

Thanks for your comment...6 monthes is 6 monthes...you've helped prove my point regarding the original post that any claims of E* being dead or D* being superior at this point in time are grossly premature and thus downright false.



And I do hope your right about that national offering, if D* is as great as they say its going to be, I'll be the first one to switch, but for now? They still are woefully lacking and I can thankfully I can patiently wait for them to deliver while watching my current lineup of 30+ channels.

As far as the sports offering, so long as they don't sacrifice the national HD lineup to make room for it like they have in the past, its all fine by me.




I'm sure Dish subs who enjoy their regular HD programming will be grateful that they don't have that overpriced, overhyped marketting trash stealing thier bandwidth! :D



Not really...like I said, I can afford to be patient and skeptical regarding D*, because at this point in time I'm satisfied with E* and there is nothing better out there at this time. If D* is finally 'all that' when they come around, so be it. I'll be more excited than you are, probably. But D* subs prematurely burying E* and touting the excellence of their product based on press releases and over-priced sports packages? Well, thats just the pent up frustration of the waiting game. I was fortunate to avoid that waiting game. I got out when it was good, and am in excellent position to switch again if its worth it. No hype and rah-rah here...just "show me the money!" :cool:

You 'attempt' to start an objective comment, but as always end with the subjective ones (D* is woefully lacking) (there is nothing better out there).

For me, and MILLIONS more like me, it is E* that is woefully lacking, and there is nothing better than D*. I don't need HGTV-HD, I don't watch HGTV SD. We prefer the offering D* provides better. What you really should say is....... both have their strong points, both have their weak points - depending on the type of programming preferred either choice could be considered better.

I don't put DISH down, I just prefer DirecTV - as you say, if I preferred the other I would have it, plain and simple.

There is some speculating, some conjecture, and lots of fact. The viewership for network shows are in the multi-millions (or else they are dropped). The total number of households that even have VOOM is what? A million give or take? There is NO WAY those channels can have substantial ratings. You probably don't want to comment - because what it says in this paragraph is TRUE.

very little facts, thats for sure...

We are not talking the networks here, we are talking the "rating of a HD-lil channel"...thats one channel, right? Thats what you said, right? One HD-lil channel...

I asked what your basis for comparison was because its not readily obvious...an HD-lil channel, any HD-lil channel has viewership in only one market, whereas Voom is nationally televised. Regardless of your perceived value of each, I do not see a basis for comparison. Where as one-million people can watch voom by choice if they want too, one-million people in a given market watch that HD-lil channel because its the only option for that viewing that channel. Get it? Its not directly comparable...

very little facts, thats for sure...

We are not talking the networks here, we are talking the "rating of a HD-lil channel"...thats one channel, right? Thats what you said, right? One HD-lil channel...

I asked what your basis for comparison was because its not readily obvious...an HD-lil channel, any HD-lil channel has viewership in only one market, whereas Voom is nationally televised. Regardless of your perceived value of each, I do not see a basis for comparison. Where as one-million people can watch voom by choice if they want too, one-million people in a given market watch that HD-lil channel because its the only option for that viewing that channel. Get it? Its not directly comparable...

Actually good job of twisting the facts.

Going back to my original comment, I said the VOOM channels were lowly rated. That means the number of people WATCHING A PARTICULAR SHOW OR CHANNEL. And they are. They have a maximum possible viewership of about a million. I said also that given the choice between having HD lils or VOOM, the answer is obvious, most would select HD lils. I am also talking about ratings of programming - not which channel number a particular person tunes to in order to receive it.

The FACTS are that NBC, CBS, ABC, FOX, ALL have higher ratings by many multiples than the POSSIBLE POTENTIAL audience for VOOM.

You 'attempt' to start an objective comment, but as always end with the subjective ones (D* is woefully lacking) (there is nothing better out there).

It was not a subjective, it was purely quantitative...number of channels, number of choices, an the PQ of those channels. D* is sorely lacking...

For me, and MILLIONS more like me, it is E* that is woefully lacking, and there is nothing better than D*. I don't need HGTV-HD, I don't watch HGTV SD. We prefer the offering D* provides better. What you really should say is....... both have their strong points, both have their weak points - depending on the type of programming preferred either choice could be considered better.

...however given the limited choices, if those choices are ideal for you and your willing to pay for them, thats great!

In turn, when and if D* does turn around and offer their 100 channels and E* plans to remain, as stated, competitive based on 'price points', then choices will be made by HD consumers that are similiar. Do I want to pay a smaller price for limited channels of content I DO watch, or a larger price for 100 channels that I probably won't watch...get it? This goes back to one of my original posts in this thread in terms of why E* is nowhere near 'Dead', as HD-Fan has been trying to convince us...

I don't entirely disagree with you, Scobuck...I never really do. I just fail to accept D* as being superior to E* at this juncture soley on its appeal to sports fans...when the average HD consumer has pretty much been ignored. Hopefully this is on the precipice of change as we speak...

What the hell is the signifigance of ratings in this discussion?? VOOM currently offers HD content that D* does not. Whether 1 person or 1,000,000 people watch it, who cares??

Actually good job of twisting the facts.

Going back to my original comment, I said the VOOM channels were lowly rated. That means the number of people WATCHING A PARTICULAR SHOW OR CHANNEL. And they are. They have a maximum possible viewership of about a million. I said also that given the choice between having HD lils or VOOM, the answer is obvious, most would select HD lils. I am also talking about ratings of programming - not which channel number a particular person tunes to in order to receive it.

The FACTS are that NBC, CBS, ABC, FOX, ALL have higher ratings by many multiples than the POSSIBLE POTENTIAL audience for VOOM.

No twisting involved...you said "a channel", so I phrased my response in the context of "a channel"...period...

comparing Voom to NBC, CBS, ABC, and FOX is just ridculous on your part and shows just how desparately you are reaching. No, its not 'obvious'. :D

I'm sure most people would choose D* strictly for HD-lil in thier area "IF AND ONLY IF" that was their only option for viewing their channels in their area...however in an overwhelming majority of situations, that is not the case. E* also provides HD-lil in case you didn't know...so how does this HD-lil fetish of yours make D* infinitely superior?

People that want Voom, will sub to E* to get Voom, its that simple...people that want thier local NBC, CBS, and whatever...most of them have plenty of options...

like I said, its not comparible...

What the hell is the signifigance of ratings in this discussion?? VOOM currently offers HD content that D* does not. Whether 1 person or 1,000,000 people watch it, who cares??

if a tree falls in a forest and no one is around, does it make noise?

No twisting involved...you said "a channel", so I phrased my response in the context of "a channel"...period...

comparing Voom to NBC, CBS, ABC, and FOX is just ridculous on your part and shows just how desparately you are reaching. No, its not 'obvious'. :D

I'm sure most people would choose D* strictly for HD-lil in thier area "IF AND ONLY IF" that was their only option for viewing their channels in their area...however in an overwhelming majority of situations, that is not the case. E* also provides HD-lil in case you didn't know...so how does this HD-lil fetish of yours make D* infinitely superior?

People that want Voom, will sub to E* to get Voom, its that simple...people that want thier local NBC, CBS, and whatever...most of them have plenty of options...

like I said, its not comparible...

Frankly, and factually, the overwhelming majority of subs (E*, D* cable, FIOS) of ALL providers rely on the pay provider for their locals and DO NOT utilize antennas anymore. That would not be true probably for members of this and other boards, but it IS true of the total pay sub population.

Done discussing with you, I never said D* was superior (which you have brought up here a couple of times). I said both have their strengths and their weaknesses.

I said low-rated, that still remains a fact for VOOM.

Ya know, "my dog is better than your dog"....they are both dogs.....who cares....if I personally had a financial stake in either E* or D* I would care. The bottom line is.....he who has the "best" programming (both quality and quantity) at the "best" price will get my vote. All this speculation is stupid. Unless any one of you has an ear and/or a voice in management's decision at either provider then comment objectively; otherwise, shut up and stop arguing.

more foxeng NONSENSE. He totally ignores the fact that 1/3 of the picture information is flushed down the toilet with D* and the effects of this are visible across the entire screen. I am sick of hearing this lame IGNORANT arguement. I think ole Foxy should go over to the BD and HD DVD forums and tell everyone not to waste their money because unless they have a 20k dollar projector, D*'s picture looks just as good. :rolleyes:

You can't put 10 pounds of crap in a 5 pound bag. You can send 1920 x 1080 all you want and if the display can only display 1388 x 766 YOU ARE NOT going to see 1920 x1080 because there isn't 2 million pixels to display it to start with and will have to be transcoded to take that 1920 x 1080 signal and make it fit in that 1388 x 766 display which causes just as many problems as down resing at the encoder. The bigger issue is bit starving and not necessarily horizontal resolution reduction. That is a symptom of the bit starving to try and improve on the PQ. Why you can't see that is beyond me?

Now, is that a good reason or even a reason to use to bit starve/down res and how it is done is an ENTIRELY different subject, but hey, let's not confuse facts with hatred. You have shown time and time again for years that your day isn't complete until you find some way to bash D* (or me if I make a statement that you don't like) because you feel you have been "wronged." It is time to grow up.

You can't put 10 pounds of crap in a 5 pound bag. You can send 1920 x 1080 all you want and if the display can only display 1388 x 766 YOU ARE NOT going to see 1920 x1080 because there isn't 2 million pixels to display it to start with and will have to be transcoded to take that 1920 x 1080 signal and make it fit in that 1388 x 766 display which causes just as many problems as down resing at the encoder.


But going through two interations of downrezzing/scaling (encoder and then display) will create more artifacts than your display doing it one time at the very end of the chain.

However, given current bandwidth restraints, I much prefer the current downrezzed PQ than if they sent full rez at the same bit rate.

Frankly, and factually, the overwhelming majority of subs (E*, D* cable, FIOS) of ALL providers rely on the pay provider for their locals and DO NOT utilize antennas anymore. That would not be true probably for members of this and other boards, but it IS true of the total pay sub population..

right...thats exactly what I said. People have plenty of options for HD-lil, so there is no points for D* here or against E*. I still don't know what YOUR point is other than you like D* and everyone should because of local channels...

Anyone else sick of people saying "nail in the coffin"?

Unless everyone in the US feel the same way you do, the opinion of enthusiasts hold no significance.

Anyone else sick of people saying "nail in the coffin"?

Unless everyone in the US feel the same way you do, the opinion of enthusiasts hold no significance.
I am. I don't understand the all the emotion and hyperbole in threads like this.

I'm as big of an HD fan as anyone else, but I see no need for all the name calling and emotional complaints about each service provider.

Complaining about downrezzing, low bit rates, and other offenses against high quality HD is one thing, but this thread is something totally different.

I am. I don't understand the all the emotion and hyperbole in threads like this.

I'm as big of an HD fan as anyone else, but I see no need for all the name calling and emotional complaints about each service provider.

Complaining about downrezzing, low bit rates, and other offenses against high quality HD is one thing, but this thread is something totally different.

This thread is just HDfan swatting the hornets nest again just to start trouble...and he succeeded...

This thread is just HDfan swatting the hornets nest again just to start trouble...and he succeeded...
If you really think tat is his agenda, comments like this by you prove he has succeeded.

If you really think tat is his agenda, comments like this by you prove he has succeeded.

Isn't that what I said? :rolleyes:

You can send 1920 x 1080 all you want and if the display can only display 1388 x 766 YOU ARE NOT going to see 1920 x1080 because there isn't 2 million pixels to display it to start with and will have to be transcoded to take that 1920 x 1080 signal and make it fit in that 1388 x 766 display which causes just as many problems as down resing at the encoder.Though you're correct, that's not the issue here. It's this: If you downresolve 1920x1080i to 1440x1080i, and don't touch the color settings (that's the second issue with HD Lite), who with 1080i/p TVs will notice the difference? According to some experts, most won't notice a bit of difference, because their 1080i/1080p HDTVs can't resolve anything more than 1400 or so horizontal lines.

So if D* improves color response to OTA levels when the new MPEG-4 birds go online, uses 1440x1080i resolution, and sets a good enough bitrate to avoid macroblocking and artifacting, will most people here still complain about PQ vs. OTA?

So if D* improves color response to OTA levels when the new MPEG-4 birds go online, uses 1440x1080i resolution, and sets a good enough bitrate to avoid macroblocking and artifacting, will most people here still complain about PQ vs. OTA?

Based on what I've seen around here, there will be many complaints. However, I will most likely be satisfied because the macroblocking and artifacting are much more of a distraction to viewing enjoyment than lines of mostly unresolvable resolution.

So if D* improves color response to OTA levels when the new MPEG-4 birds go online, uses 1440x1080i resolution, and sets a good enough bitrate to avoid macroblocking and artifacting, will most people here still complain about PQ vs. OTA?
I think if all the channels had been that way this whole time, people would have been a whole lot less vocal. Sure, some people with larger, higher resolution sets would still be unhappy, but HDLite would probably not be in the vernacular.

Loss of resolution alone wouldn't be enough to lead to the current picture problems. It's the loss of resolution couple with lack of bandwidth that have so many people frustrated.

Some providers HD boxes don't even output more than 1440X1080, yet people seem very happy with the quality. They aren't dealing with bit starving in addition to the lowering of resolution.

Look them up yourself! The launch schedules for the coming years were posted right here in this forum! If you missed them, thats not my fault...and I'm not going to do the research for you when its you with the bold and inaccurate point to prove. Its not my job to teach you. :cool:


Your answer = Vampz26 is clueless and talking though his butt about something he does not have a clue about. Please, tell us where - E* plans to get the bandwidth and Orbital Positions for the needed 1500 HD Channels?

From E* own filing 17 days ago with the SEC which is signed by Charlie himself:


DBS and Other Direct-to-Home System Operators . News Corporation owns a 38.5% controlling interest in the DirecTV Group, Inc. (“DirecTV”). In December 2006, Liberty Media Corporation (“Liberty”) agreed to exchange its 16.3% stake in News Corporation for News Corporation’s stake in DirecTV, together with regional sports networks in Denver, Pittsburg and Seattle. The deal is expected to be completed during the second half of 2007. News Corporation and Liberty each have ownership interests in diverse world-wide programming content and other related businesses. These assets provide competitive advantages to DirecTV with respect to the acquisition of programming, content and other business opportunities valuable to our industry.

In addition, DirecTV’s satellite receivers are sold in a significantly greater number of consumer electronics stores than ours. As a result of this and other factors, our services are less well known to consumers than those of DirecTV. Due to this relative lack of consumer awareness and other factors, we are at a competitive marketing disadvantage compared to DirecTV. DirecTV also offers exclusive programming, and may have access to discounts on programming, not available to us. DirecTV plans to launch two new satellites in 2007 in order to offer local and national channel programming in HD to most of the U.S. population. Although we have launched our own HD initiatives, if DirecTV fully implements these plans, they may have an additional competitive advantage.

Impact of High Definition TV . Although we believe we currently offer consumers a compelling amount of HD programming content, other multi-channel video providers may be better equipped to increase their HD offerings to respond to increasing consumer demand for this content. For example, cable companies are able to offer local network channels in HD in more markets than we can, and DirecTV has announced that it will soon be able to offer over 150 channels of HD programming by satellite. We could be further disadvantaged to the extent a significant number of local broadcasters begin offering local channels in HD. We may be required to make substantial additional investments in infrastructure to respond to competitive pressure to deliver additional HD programming, and there can be no assurance that we will be able to effectively compete with HD program offerings from other video providers.



"Near Future"? More speculation? Maybe they will, maybe they won't...but only one thing is certain....THEY HAVEN'T YET !

(you really do think your Edgar Cayce...)


12 Months or so IS NEAR FUTURE....AND YES, Dish will loose transponder space on 129W in the near future. They will also loose the 61.5W position sometime down the road.

Unlike Directv, they will only pickup around 1/2 a satellite for Ka @ 121W and 83W. Because of the location of 83W, it can replace 61.5W, but it cannot play a significant role in the future - again - remember they will eventually loose all but 3 transponders on 61.5 and pickup 1/2 a satellite at 83W Ka Band.

They did NOT get the tweener they wanted at 114W - and the tweener at 85W is being objected to by Canada. If the tweener at 85W stands, the tweener at 114W has the potential to cause significant interference of 110W and 119 as well - which is why they are fighting that license - the same as Canada is doing to their 85W license.


I'm not the one who claims to have a crystal ball! :D


Agreed - you only have a toliet ball.



Ok...I got it...now explain to me how this make E* dead, or somehow better than D* who'd been at 100% all along, and worse resolution and bandwidth all along?


This explains a lot. You just can't read. E* isn't dead. E* HD is Dead.


If you are wishing to bury your argument, than you've succeeded...R.I.P.

The only person buried is yourself for not understanding the difference in replacement and new orbital positions/transponders - as well as an inability to read.

Nope...just a statement of the facts to successfully 'discredit' the fanboy rah-rah...

All I did was point out the way things are NOW, to point out the opening comment as being very premature and incorrect. And I've done that.


2 Years ago 10+ HD MPEG2 Channels Error Free 1920x1080i Video Bitrate 17Mb/s+

NOW ZERO HD MPEG2 CHANNELS ERROR FREE 1920X1080I VIDEO BITRATE.


I said nothing NEW! NEW being the key word here...as of yet...today...regardless of all the rah-rah and press releases...D* has nothing NEW. Get it? If your going to attempt to quote me...do it right... :p


MARCH 1, 2007 - 2 HD MPEG2 CHANNELS ERROR FREE 1920X1080i Video Bitrate

MARCH 24 2007 - 0 HD MPEG2 CHANNELS ERROR FREE 1920X1080i Video Bitrate

That's up to date in my book.


We have prophets predicting the future,

As stated, I am REPORTING THE PRESENT.



Is this another HD-lil sensitivity speech? What does this have to do with E* being alive or dead?


Again, learn to READ - The thread TITILE IS DISH HD R.I.P. -


Have you even seen a Voom channel yet by which you base your magnificient opinions? For those of use that either don't like football, or enjoy our football in moderation, we would rather have Voom...deal with it...like I've said before, my GF is an art history student and personally loves GalleryHD. Granted its not for everyone...but neither is football...


And 14 months ago when 4 Voom Channels were 1920x1080i MPEG2 17+ Mb/s video bitrate those 4 looke wonderful.

Why do you continue to look at the PAST? I thought we were talking now.

THE PRESENT shows those channels covered with a LA Stage 3 Smog alert in comparison.

Oh, of course, E* said that this was only temporary - until they got the optical feed from Voom fixed, lol :rolleyes:


And its no different than what they've always had for the past year or so...and thats the only statement I've made here regarding D*.

Again, incorrect, as stated, the last 2 error free high bitrate MPEG2 HD Channels @ 1920x1080i have bitten the bullet.

This thread is just HDfan swatting the hornets nest again just to start trouble...and he succeeded...

No, its a statement of FACT....E* HD R.I.P.

In the month of March, they

1) Replaced the mpeg encoders of HBO-HD which now have multiple errors per movie - but they have decided they could live with it.

2) Replaced the mpeg encoder of SHO-HD which has multiple errors per movie - but decided they could live with it

3) Reduced UniversalHD from a bitstarved MPEG2 to MPEG4 - and since the channel is bitstarved due to NBC adding ChillerSD to their distribution mux earlier this month, MPEG4 has less to work with and more errors than the MPEG2 version.

4) Reduced the resolution of Universal HD from 1920 to 1440.

5) Reduced A&EHD MPEG2 to MPEG4 - as the channel had nothing more than CSI reruns in HD, no one noticed.

6) Reduced the resolution of A&EHD from 1920 to 1440. Again, due to the lack of HD, no one noticed.




6 Major events this month - all leading to ZERO 1920x1080 MPEG2 error free 17+ Mb/s HD Channels on E* where there were at least 10 two years ago.


Glad you think 6 major events are nothing - for me and others, it means E* HD is dead - they are now the EDTV leader - which is exactly what the title of this thread says.

I wonder what the bitrate is on E* HDPPV channel 9467, the NHL CI HD games I recieve with the package look pretty decent. I think the channel is still 1920x1080


Usually 10-12 Mbps depending on the rate that Showtime and TNT-HD are using at the time as they are statmuxed.

Yes but will the new HD channels be at FULL resolution when the new sattelltes light up?


No where have I said that D* was the HD Leader. I have said that D* has no where to go but upward in HD - and E* has hit rock bottom - with no additional bandwidth in site.

There is a reason they had to stop even their announced MPEG4 LIL additions in 4Q of last year.

As they are now cramming 6 MPEG4 Chanels on a transponder, I suspect they will slowly start adding a few, but overall, they are out of bandwidth - and as they must give back a number of transponders on 129W next year, the situation will only get worse.

You can't put 10 pounds of crap in a 5 pound bag. You can send 1920 x 1080 all you want and if the display can only display 1388 x 766 YOU ARE NOT going to see 1920 x1080 because there isn't 2 million pixels to display it to start with and will have to be transcoded to take that 1920 x 1080 signal and make it fit in that 1388 x 766 display which causes just as many problems as down resing at the encoder. The bigger issue is bit starving and not necessarily horizontal resolution reduction. That is a symptom of the bit starving to try and improve on the PQ. Why you can't see that is beyond me?

Now, is that a good reason or even a reason to use to bit starve/down res and how it is done is an ENTIRELY different subject, but hey, let's not confuse facts with hatred. You have shown time and time again for years that your day isn't complete until you find some way to bash D* (or me if I make a statement that you don't like) because you feel you have been "wronged." It is time to grow up.

Actually, this is where I will disagree with you foxeng.

You know as well as I do that the quality is only as good as the weakest point in the chain and just like most equipment at your station you dont want to push it to 100% 24/7/365. It's always better to have headroom.

Anyone can look at a strong NTSC signal OTA and look at a downconvert HD signal and see a night and day difference on their NTSC set.

There is no doubt that the better source material is always preferred.

If it wasn't, CBS and NBC wouldn't bother sending out 1920x1080i signal at upwards of 40Mb/s over their satellite distribution since ATSC is only capable of sub 20 Mb/s and as you put it, less than 1920x1080i - and you and I both know that NBC would do it to cut costs yesterday if they could.

Yes but will the new HD channels be at FULL resolution when the new sattelltes light up?They've basically already said no when asked point blank about it. There is a recent interview quoted in another post here somewhere.

Edit: Here you go:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10050428&&#post10050428.

I've been watching these DirecTV versus Dish Network arguments for 10 years now. They are like trying to argue that vanilla ice cream is "better" than chocolate. It is a matter of opinion, and facts have little to do with it.

I've been watching these DirecTV versus Dish Network arguments for 10 years now. They are like trying to argue that vanilla ice cream is "better" than chocolate. It is a matter of opinion, and facts have little to do with it.

As stated, the original Thread Topic and my first post never mentioned D*.

Others here brought it up.

Both are EDTV in my book at this time and MOST (that means not all) cable systems look better.

E* has been on a crash and burn to go EDTV.

Even with Universal HD's low bitrate, switching between MPEG2 on the local cable system and .h264 via Dish, there were major differences (imagine that - lower quality source material - more difficult to re-encode). And people wonder why they should be concerned about lower resolutions once everything is run through "low price consumer electronics" at their house? Quite frankly, I've never heard a cassette sound better than a CD, no matter how crappy the stereo.

At least D* will have the bandwidth to attempt to improve in the future - where E* has no such options - and as one can see from their moves, doesn't really care about - they are in pure scavenger/survival mode - rushing to replace their collection of space junk before they literally run out of fuel.

So whats left for E* HD as far as 1920x1080i channels? HBO, Showtime, TNT, Discovery & PPV?

You can't put 10 pounds of crap in a 5 pound bag. You can send 1920 x 1080 all you want and if the display can only display 1388 x 766 YOU ARE NOT going to see 1920 x1080 because there isn't 2 million pixels to display it to start with and will have to be transcoded to take that 1920 x 1080 signal and make it fit in that 1388 x 766 display which causes just as many problems as down resing at the encoder. The bigger issue is bit starving and not necessarily horizontal resolution reduction. That is a symptom of the bit starving to try and improve on the PQ. Why you can't see that is beyond me?

Now, is that a good reason or even a reason to use to bit starve/down res and how it is done is an ENTIRELY different subject, but hey, let's not confuse facts with hatred. You have shown time and time again for years that your day isn't complete until you find some way to bash D* (or me if I make a statement that you don't like) because you feel you have been "wronged." It is time to grow up.
and even more nonsense. Its time to get off your used car salesman defense of D*'s PQ. Its gone to the point of absurdity. Somehow a better 1920x1080i transmission is going to cause the kind of CRAP that viewers see on D*'s HD? Are you selling snake oil and swamp land too?

But going through two interations of downrezzing/scaling (encoder and then display) will create more artifacts than your display doing it one time at the very end of the chain.

However, given current bandwidth restraints, I much prefer the current downrezzed PQ than if they sent full rez at the same bit rate.
correct.

Actually, this is where I will disagree with you foxeng.

You know as well as I do that the quality is only as good as the weakest point in the chain and just like most equipment at your station you dont want to push it to 100% 24/7/365. It's always better to have headroom.

Anyone can look at a strong NTSC signal OTA and look at a downconvert HD signal and see a night and day difference on their NTSC set.

There is no doubt that the better source material is always preferred.

If it wasn't, CBS and NBC wouldn't bother sending out 1920x1080i signal at upwards of 40Mb/s over their satellite distribution since ATSC is only capable of sub 20 Mb/s and as you put it, less than 1920x1080i - and you and I both know that NBC would do it to cut costs yesterday if they could.

If you look, I never said I agree with what E* or D* is doing, just that the difference in PQ from 1920 x 1080 and 1440x1080 is minimal when viewed on a 1388 x 766 display. Is the 1920 x 1080 crisper on a 1388 x 766? Maybe. There are too many variables in the set as well as encoder to be definitive yes or no. Some sets it would be yes, others would be no. My Teranex scaler at work is years better than any scaler in a TV or STB but if the viewer can't see it, it doesn't do much good.

Now can you tell the difference between 1920 x 1080 and 1440 x 1080 with a directview crt or crt projector? More than likely yes. It will depend on the eyeballs at that point (my eyes, yes I can) but those type displays are more and more in the minority these days and moving more and more in that direction. The one thing I have found out with the viewing public is PQ is very subjective. I see things in a NTSC 480i signal that causes me to change channels that 80% of the viewing public would never see.

I still believe the root cause of all of this down resing is the bit starving. If you reduce the bitrate, you have to reduce the amount of data to minimize the macroblocking. The easiest way is to reduce resolution to reduce the data payload. If the majority of displays can't show things above 1440 x 1080 anyway, then why send them? I am not saying that is a good reason, but it is a CONVENIENT reason. I personally think that is a bad idea, but until there is a uprising in the HD masses, we will be getting more of the same.

As you have pointed out, E* has no bandwidth and will be loosing even more bandwidth in the not to distant future. Now why D* is doing what they are doing, I have no idea. With the upcoming sale, any inroads I had are now gone. My guess is that these early generation MPEG4 encoders are still beta versions and it is easier to make them work with reduced resolution, particularly if the end displays are not 1920 x 1080 to start with. It certainly CAN'T be bandwidth issues now. That excuse is gone. You may have a better idea than I do on what is the true reason. And if so, I would be very interested to hear why.

Are you selling snake oil and swamp land too?

Someone needs to close the window. The wind is blowing again.

Hey, HDFanAtic:

Right now, Dish HD isn't quite dead. From other reports, E* still beats D* in PQ. Granted, E*'s PQ is probably not as good as it once was, but it's not dead yet.

Dish HD hasn't quite hit rock bottom. No, when they lose those 129W transponders, and add new channels like ToonDisneyHD, just to keep up with the Joneses (D*), they could be putting 8+ HD channels on one transponder. That's when their HD quality will really be DOA. Can E* legally get rid of some VOOM channels to fit in WeatherChannelHD and CNBCHD? You know that people will start freaking if they can't get their weather and financial news in HDTV or EDTV or whatever, and their neighbors with D* and cable(?) can. I hope that D*'s PQ goes up with their new birds.

Actually I believe that HDFan is trying to let us know that what has transpired with DISH very recently is like a death march. What I am getting at is they currently have a edge in PQ, they have an edge in number HD nat'ls, BUT.......

it looks like their party is almost over.

They are at the outer limit of available bandwidth, and that will only get tighter soon (losing space at 129). They don't have 'new' hardware going up needed to increase their offering. The recent quotes from Charlie back this up.

He also didn't mention a word about DirecTv in his OP. I don't think this was meant as a D* vs E* discussion, but rather a 'looks like the end of the road for E* discussion.

If someone with the knowledge of what both satcos have detailed as coming down the pike in the next year (and really beginning to happen within 6 months) - who in their right mind would NOW CHOOSE DISH, and WHY? For a free HD-DVR?

you guys are totally overcomplicating the issue

E* HD is still better than D* Mpeg2 HD

but

D* Mpeg4 locals HD is better than E* HD

D*s new mpeg4 HD channels? Who knows. Will they have the current mpeg4 PQ or will they revert to the old mpeg2 PQ?

Kinda silly to complain till we know. D* had been reducing pq for years, but this last year we have seen drastic pq improvement with mpeg4.

E* pq has gotten worse this last year.

So which trend do you go with? I'll have to go with the guys who have finally improved pq.

you guys are totally overcomplicating the issue

E* HD is still better than D* Mpeg2 HD

but

D* Mpeg4 locals HD is better than E* HD

D*s new mpeg4 HD channels? Who knows. Will they have the current mpeg4 PQ or will they revert to the old mpeg2 PQ?

Kinda silly to complain till we know. D* had been reducing pq for years, but this last year we have seen drastic pq improvement with mpeg4.

E* pq has gotten worse this last year.

So which trend do you go with? I'll have to go with the guys who have finally improved pq.

I disagree here in Boston the MPEG 4 channels are very soft most of the time depending on the program. I have switched the basketball games over to channel 80 which is MPEG 2 and find that it looks better than my local MPEG 4 channels.

I disagree here in Boston the MPEG 4 channels are very soft most of the time depending on the program. I have switched the basketball games over to channel 80 which is MPEG 2 and find that it looks better than my local MPEG 4 channels.


Well yeah, it's been talked about here that boston mpeg4 locals aren't too impressive. THere are a few other problem locations too,but overall most areas have reported PQ improvement. The LA locals look fantastic.

But if you're in Boston, it's nothing to cheer about.

Now it appears the boston problems are specific to that region. I don't anticipate that being the case with mpeg4 nationals.

Well yeah, it's been talked about here that boston mpeg4 locals aren't too impressive. THere are a few other problem locations too,but overall most areas have reported PQ improvement. The LA locals look fantastic.

But if you're in Boston, it's nothing to cheer about.

Now it appears the boston problems are specific to that region. I don't anticipate that being the case with mpeg4 nationals.

I hope they are working to correct it here and soon, sometimes it is just plain bad. The funny thing is that NESN here looks great almost everytime I have watched it so not sure why the othe stations look so bad. I am looking forward to the day that Boston looks as good as yours that is for sure. I would hope the nationals look better than what I am seeing now which really isn't saying much I guess.

you guys are totally overcomplicating the issue

E* HD is still better than D* Mpeg2 HD

but

D* Mpeg4 locals HD is better than E* HD

D*s new mpeg4 HD channels? Who knows. Will they have the current mpeg4 PQ or will they revert to the old mpeg2 PQ?

Kinda silly to complain till we know. D* had been reducing pq for years, but this last year we have seen drastic pq improvement with mpeg4.

E* pq has gotten worse this last year.

So which trend do you go with? I'll have to go with the guys who have finally improved pq.

Don't agree with your premise. It IS a complicated issue all around. Seems that everyone uses a different barometer. Every monitor is different, everybodys vision is different. Even as we see here, the so-called' members with lots of 'technical' knowledge - they also have differing opinions.

The point of this thread though was NOT a comparison, but an opinion that E* is NOT what it used to be - and that they ain't going in the right direction. Simple, huh?

Three things:

1. The future of TV is HD, pure and simple. We know it, and the satellite companies know it.

2. The current state of TV is an HD/SD hybrid to support older customers with analog TVs, and that situation will continue for much time to come.

3. E* already is having issues with HD bandwidth, and the squeeze will get worse with all the new channels that are coming in, PLUS the loss of the 129W bandwidth. They can't squeeze SD bandwidth much more.

4. There will come a time that the majority of customers have HDTVs, and at that time, if E*'s HD PQ is the laughingstock of the AV world, expect people to learn it fast and do something about it (switch).

5. Did you know that E* is losing money every day by not paying TiVo for patent infringement?

6. Oh, and did you know that E* has to launch replacement satellites in the near future? That's roughly a quarter of a billion dollars per launch.

7. Did you also know that D* has the most sports coverage of any major satellite provider?

OK, so that's seven things. But never mind that, since that's not the point. You mark my words: E* will get into so much debt due to people jumping ship due to bad PQ, that they'll be out of business within five years. If D* pays the NFL three quarters of a billion dollars a year for out-of-market NFL game exclusivity, you had better well believe that they will be willing to pay a billion dollars for E*'s customers and especially bandwidth. You know what? E* will probably be willing to sell that low if they get in dire enough straits. Call it the Louisiana Purchase of TV if you want. The future is HD, and D* will need that bandwidth for future HD proliferation.

The big joke is that D* is more than likely going lose exclusive rights to all this magnificient sports programing thanks to government regulation issues before Tivo ever sees one thin dime out of E*. This crap is going to be litigated to death before a resolution is evident.

the point remains the same, HDfan made an incorrect statement to start off the thread, and thus retracted it himself by placing all further comments regarding such in the future tense. All folks continued to do so as well, further negating the original statement in the originating post.

At the end of the day, its all quite simple...

...and unless you are a stockholder in either Tivo, E*, or D*, none of this crap should even matter... :D :D :D

I don't think they will loose their exclusive rights it all went out to bid and they won pure and simple.

A heated debate on speculation. Sounds like the federal gov't....gotta love it.

I don't think they will loose their exclusive rights it all went out to bid and they won pure and simple.

From the business perspective, yes... from the political perspective its a different story...

Regional Cable has a strong lobby, and congressman are listening...stay tuned...

No one is saying they WILL lose their exclusive rights, I'm just saying they could lose them...just like all the other woulda, shoulda, coulda's out there...one situation I've already referred to in the context of this one...just another could, would, should...

E* has lost to Tivo and is using the appeals process as a method to getting non-patent infringing DVRs out before it is settled. They will still have to pay Tivo regardless, the only thing is how much.

You have to love the politicians getting inmvolved in something like this when there are so many more important issues to deal with.

I really don't think there is anything they can do as this is capitalism at its best. I feel bad for all the BB fans that can't get the package this year and beyond but I think the fault lays at the feet of the cable systems that did not step up to the plate and bid enough to get the package.

the point remains the same, HDfan made an incorrect statement to start off the thread...
Which is what?

Which is what?


So long E*. You are now the EDTV leader.

R.I.P.

...as stated in the posts that followed, E*, regardless of the 'post edit' situation described by HDfan, is still ahead of D* in terms resolution and broadcast quality. Thus making this bold statement false.

He of course phrased all future accusations in the future tense, which may or may not have relevance down the line, but as of yet, do not...

Thanks for asking... ;)

...as stated in the posts that followed, E*, regardless of the 'post edit' situation described by HDfan, is still ahead of D* in terms resolution and broadcast quality. Thus making this bold statement false.
Why don't you ask him to post the current statistical info for the HD channels they both carry? He has access to everything in MPEG2.

You may change your mind.

Man, this whole nightmare for me would be over with just one little tweak. That would be having just one voom channel on D*....MONSTERS-HD!!!!

It really pisses me off to think that I have to switch for one...freakin'...channel. NFL, NBA, MLB...great...but I can live without that stuff. Who has the time to watch that many freakin' sports and games? I love sports...but networks do just fine on giving me want I want to see. Screw steroids and overpaid ball players...give me Ray Harryhausen.

I guess there is nothing keeping me here on D*. The waiting has grown even more dull and hell, I could be dead next week....so I guess I'm going over to the other guys!

Man, this whole nightmare for me would be over with just one little tweak. That would be having just one voom channel on D*....MONSTERS-HD!!!!

It really pisses me off to think that I have to switch for one...freakin'...channel. NFL, NBA, MLB...great...but I can live without that stuff. Who has the time to watch that many freakin' sports and games? I love sports...but networks do just fine on giving me want I want to see. Screw steroids and overpaid ball players...give me Ray Harryhausen.

I guess there is nothing keeping me here on D*. The waiting has grown even more dull and hell, I could be dead next week....so I guess I'm going over to the other guys!


To each his own whatever floats your boat

Man, this whole nightmare for me would be over with just one little tweak. That would be having just one voom channel on D*....MONSTERS-HD!!!!

It really pisses me off to think that I have to switch for one...freakin'...channel. NFL, NBA, MLB...great...but I can live without that stuff. Who has the time to watch that many freakin' sports and games? I love sports...but networks do just fine on giving me want I want to see. Screw steroids and overpaid ball players...give me Ray Harryhausen.

I guess there is nothing keeping me here on D*. The waiting has grown even more dull and hell, I could be dead next week....so I guess I'm going over to the other guys!

That's a great channel if your like me and like older horror films. I did that switch for the exact same reasons and continue to be happy. If you do get the 622 dvr its a great piece of equipment. I made the switch before E* went hdlite on all their channels.

To each his own whatever floats your boat

Actually, now that you have mentioned it....I won't make the change until next month.

I've decided that neither sat services are worth the energy of switching for right now. Instead, I'm putting all my $ and time into my new Current Designs kayak thats going to set me back a few grand. Yes....the only thing that can float my boat right now is a river.....so screw programming. It's spring for christs sake! Anywhere is better than "inside". :)

Why don't you ask him to post the current statistical info for the HD channels they both carry? He has access to everything in MPEG2.

You may change your mind.

If he could express himself as a man of science with acurate statistical info, and not like just another pro-D* or anti-E* religious freak, I probably would... :D

If he could express himself as a man of science with acurate statistical info, and not like just another pro-D* or anti-E* religious freak, I probably would... :D
Well, regardless of how you perceive him, his opinions in this matter are based on statistical info.

Well, regardless of how you perceive him, his opinions in this matter are based on statistical info.

I'm sure his 'technical' opinions are, and I've given him credit for such in the past as well...

...however...

When his opinions based on 'technical' statistics start crossing over into the worlds of business, law, politics and finance...all he succeeds in proving is his lack of knowledge in those areas.

And his habit of going right for the elementary-school insults, intentional misquotes, and other fallacious arguments does not do much to help him in this regard. That is why I question his credibility. Any educated person would when a conversation takes a turn like that...

Like I said, if he wishes to be perceived as the expert, he should stay within the realm of what he knows and be more specific about it. That and stay away from the passion-filled diatribes and stick with the facts.

I'm sure his 'technical' opinions are, and I've given him credit for such in the past as well...

...however...

When his opinions based on 'technical' statistics start crossing over into the worlds of business, law, politics and finance...all he succeeds in proving is his lack of knowledge in those areas.
What makes you so sure he doesn't have experience in those areas?

By the way, he does have direct first hand experience in the broadcasting business, and not just the technical part.

What makes you so sure he doesn't have experience in those areas?

he starts speaking on those subjects...

By the way, he does have direct first hand experience in the broadcasting business, and not just the technical part.

And I have first hand experience in business, politics, and IP litigation, for what its worth, mostly dealing with the technical part.

Seriously, Ken...I have no doubt as to his knowledge in the areas he accurately professed to have knowledge on. He obviously is 'someone' here, and I've given him all the credit he deserves time and time again for it, but if I were to give him the benefit of the doubt right now, and assume based on the station in life you state he has...then I can only write him off as an agent of the system he works for and is towing the corporate line along the way. Which is fine, I can respect that...but in the real world the corporate line is just that, a line...you defend your position because its your only position to defend. You need to be right in order to have a position. And thats that...in the bigger picture, its just one position of many...and not always the correct one. Its a perspective thing...hes in the broadcasting business, thats great! But what does he know about law or business in general other than what or how he thinks it all works or should work from the perspective of broadcasting?

But with all due respect, towards you and HDfan, giving HDfan all the credit he deserves for whatever station in life he possesses, you know better than anyone that declaring a providers HD offering as dead with only a few technical stats as your immediate proof, is sure to insite antagonism, and it did. And everyone knows that defending any argument with insults and fallacy proves nothing, and in the end hurts credibility, and it did. All of us know that there are more than one side to any discussion, and there are. But in the end, like I've said before, it really doesn't matter unless your a stockholder in E*.

As for me, I just can't resist calling out BS when I see it and did so in this case. It became an ego thing all the way around after that...

...as stated in the posts that followed, E*, regardless of the 'post edit' situation described by HDfan, is still ahead of D* in terms resolution and broadcast quality. Thus making this bold statement false.

He of course phrased all future accusations in the future tense, which may or may not have relevance down the line, but as of yet, do not...

Thanks for asking... ;)

So please, list all 1920x1080i MPEG2 17+ Mb/s error free video channels on E* as of this week.

There were 10 or more 2 years ago.

Go ahead...list them.

And btw, that those are engineering measurements and based on science - not some number pulled out of my butt like your posts.

E* now stands for EDTV - and E* is now the EDTV Leader.

If he could express himself as a man of science with acurate statistical info, and not like just another pro-D* or anti-E* religious freak, I probably would... :D

Speak of the pot calling the kettle black again. Where's your science?

Awaiting your list..

When his opinions based on 'technical' statistics start crossing over into the worlds of business, law, politics and finance...all he succeeds in proving is his lack of knowledge in those areas.


You wouldn't know the difference in fact and fiction if it hit you in the face.

As stated before in this thread


In the month of March, they

1) Replaced the mpeg encoders of HBO-HD which now have multiple errors per movie - but they have decided they could live with it.

2) Replaced the mpeg encoder of SHO-HD which has multiple errors per movie - but decided they could live with it

3) Reduced UniversalHD from a bitstarved MPEG2 to MPEG4 - and since the channel is bitstarved due to NBC adding ChillerSD to their distribution mux earlier this month, MPEG4 has less to work with and more errors than the MPEG2 version.

4) Reduced the resolution of Universal HD from 1920 to 1440.

5) Reduced A&EHD MPEG2 to MPEG4 - as the channel had nothing more than CSI reruns in HD, no one noticed.

6) Reduced the resolution of A&EHD from 1920 to 1440. Again, due to the lack of HD, no one noticed.




6 Major events this month - all leading to ZERO 1920x1080 MPEG2 error free 17+ Mb/s HD Channels on E* where there were at least 10 two years ago.


Glad you think 6 major events are nothing - for me and others, it means E* HD is dead - they are now the EDTV leader - which is exactly what the title of this thread says.

And let's just make this clear.

The 2005 archives show that I was the first person to report E* had reduced the HD-PPV on 110 to 1280x1080i in a thread titled Dish joins the HD-LITE Club. You will not find a report of that on avsforum, satelliteguys.us or dbstalk (or any other place) prior to that thread.

A month later I was the first to report in the E/Voom threads that 6 Channels were in 1280x1080i with 48 hours of Voom's arrival E*. Again, the date and time stamp will show that was not reported at any other place prior to that point.

I was the first to point out that Universal HD 5.1 wasn't.

My numerous posts that something was going on with HDNET/HDNET Movies as the max bitrate had changed from 65.00 Mb/s to 17.57was prior to E* pulling the plug on HDNET. My observations were proven correct again several weeks later.

I was the only one to report that something had happened on 148W earlier this month as HBO-HD and SHO-HD 9430 and 9440. We know know that they changed encoders for those channels. They are aware of the errors but they are willing to live with the errors.

Ask yourself another question why they are changing encoders this month.

I was the first and only person to report that HBO-HD dropped their C Band Distribution Max Bitrate earlier this week. After several emails, it was increased back on Thursday.

I was the first to report on any internet forum that UniversalHD's bitrate had been reduced to put the SD Chiller mux in their C Band distribution. Furthermore, I was the first to report that UniversalHD had been moved to mpeg4 from mpeg2 this week.

So again, I'll stand on my record of 2 years of paying close attention - catching things such as a HBO Chroma issue that had an effect on all viewers last month - It was myself and another engineer who worked to isolate the ABC Green Stripe issue that was corrected last January nationwide - I worked behind the scenes with CBS on the green grid issue - and for 6 months I was the one that stated I had technical results that showed Directv's HD-LIL at HD-LITE resolutions - something everyone denied and fought against and now the Magic 8 Ball confirmed through other sources.

So again, I'll stand on my record of knowing what is going on in the HD arena - and engineering is based on scientific fact that can be measured and replicated.

You can't even read the Dish 10-K and see the problems it seems.

Hail Hail E* - the EDTV Leader.

But with all due respect, towards you and HDfan, giving HDfan all the credit he deserves for whatever station in life he possesses, you know better than anyone that declaring a providers HD offering as dead with only a few technical stats as your immediate proof, is sure to insite antagonism, and it did. And everyone knows that defending any argument with insults and fallacy proves nothing, and in the end hurts credibility, and it did. All of us know that there are more than one side to any discussion, and there are. But in the end, like I've said before, it really doesn't matter unless your a stockholder in E*.

As for me, I just can't resist calling out BS when I see it and did so in this case. It became an ego thing all the way around after that...

Rather than respond directly to your litany of BS...I'll quote myself. in the context of your recent posts it rings truer than it ever did initially...

NOW LISTEN AND LISTEN GOOD!

I have given you all due respect regarding your little toys and the stats they produce and your liberal interpretations of them. I have shown you no disrespect in that regard...EVER!

Second. I have challenged you in your interpretations only when you start talking legal ramifications of your stats and the business ramifications of your famous stats. While they do hold some water, I'll give you that...they are improbable when it comes to actuallity. And sometimes, downright nonsense.

Third...D* has been delivering HD-lite longer than anyone else (at 1280, not even 1440), lets call them the EDTV leader since they have the most experience at it...that sound good? Experience is your argument, isn't it?

Now stop acting like a spoiled six year old. You've succeded in boring me already...if you want to be the alpha-geek around here with your little toys and statistics, thats fine by me, you are knowledgable in that regard and I appreciate your input as much as anyone...but when you start talking business plans being dead and such, you are way out of your league with me. Way out of your league...

Now grow up already...

Rather than respond directly to your litany of BS...I'll quote myself. in the context of your recent posts it rings truer than it ever did initially...

NOW LISTEN AND LISTEN GOOD!

I have given you all due respect regarding your little toys and the stats they produce and your liberal interpretations of them. I have shown you no disrespect in that regard...EVER!

Second. I have challenged you in your interpretations only when you start talking legal ramifications of your stats and the business ramifications of your famous stats. While they do hold some water, I'll give you that...they are improbable when it comes to actuallity. And sometimes, downright nonsense.

Third...D* has been delivering HD-lite longer than anyone else (at 1280, not even 1440), lets call them the EDTV leader since they have the most experience at it...that sound good? Experience is your argument, isn't it?

Now stop acting like a spoiled six year old. You've succeded in boring me already...if you want to be the alpha-geek around here with your little toys and statistics, thats fine by me, you are knowledgable in that regard and I appreciate your input as much as anyone...but when you start talking business plans being dead and such, you are way out of your league with me. Way out of your league...

Now grow up already...

Just like I thought - you could back any of your assumptions with facts - and you could not dismiss the FACTS I supplied.

LET ME MAKE THIS BIG ENOUGH YOU CAN READ AS YOU CLEARLY HAVE A 1ST GRADE GRASP OF FACTS.

E* WAS THE HD LEADER - 2 YEARS AGO THEY HAD 10+ ERROR FREE FULL RESOLUTION 1920X1080i 17+Mb/s MPEG2 CHANNELS.

TODAY THEY HAVE NONE. NONE = ZERO.

IF E* WAS THE HD LEADER IN 2005 - IN 2007 THEY ARE THE EDTV LEADER - NOT THE HD LEADER.

EVERY CABLE SYSTEM IN AMERICA THAT HAS HD LEADS BOTH E* AND D* AT THIS POINT - AS EVERYONE HAS AT LEAST ONE 1920X1080i CHANNEL - BE IT BROADCAST TV OR A SATELLITE DELIVERED CHANNEL.

E*HDTV = DIED MARCH 2007 R.I.P.

E*EDTV = BORN MARCH 2007

THE KING IS DEAD......LONG LIVE THE NEW KING....EXCEPT.......

EVERY SATELLITE IN THE E* FLEET HAS HAD AT LEAST ONE MAJOR ANOMALY AT EVERY CORE ORBITAL POSITION WITH THE EXCEPTION OF 110W, (TWO HAPPENED IN THE LAST 6 MONTHS THAT YOU OBVIOUSLY HAVE NO CLUE OF) AND ALL SPARE PARTS ARE CURRENTLY BEING USED. E* ACKNOWLEDGES THEY WILL HAVE MAJOR PROBLEMS IF ANOTHER OF THESE TYPE ANOMALIES OCCUR ON ANY OF THE 61.5, 119, 129 OR 148 GOING FORWARD AS THEY ARE ON THE REDUNDANT PARTS NOW.

THAT'S WHY SOME PEOPLE GET PAID BIG BUCKS - THEY CAN SEE THE BIG PICTURE.

OBVIOUSLY YOU CANNOT.

Unless everyone in the US feel the same way you do, the opinion of enthusiasts hold no significance.Absolutely correct. This is a major point that needs to be re-emphasized here on the AVS Forum over and over again. Righteous indignation about the way things are is okay in small measures, but we need to keep in mind that our interest in this subject is out of the ordinary, and folks like Dish Network, DirectTV, Comcast and Verizon need to focus their energies on what will best satisfy all their customers, as a group, rather than what will satisfy the pickiest of their customers -- us! That's the "big picture".

Third...D* has been delivering HD-lite longer than anyone else (at 1280, not even 1440), lets call them the EDTV leader since they have the most experience at it...that sound good?

I agree, but I guess now E* is delivering far more HDlite.

I have to agree with HDTVfanantic I dropped Dish this week due to the many fees and down rezing of the HD. I have both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. Dish HD does not come close to the picture from these formats.

---meanless content deleted---


Listen...those little stats you get playing with your toys are only about one third of the story when it comes to E*, D*, or whomever. Unfortunately its the only third of the story you know, so you think its the WHOLE story.

I've backed up all my statements based on my knowledge and experience which is obviously greater than your own in certain areas...however those are areas you refuse to acknowledge in order to remain king of the hill in your own small kingdom.

Now stop acting like a big baby. If you can't handle an opposing viewpoint, then don't go making grandios statements that are so open to challenge. Got it? You will only get upset just like this...and its ridiculous. I'm very compfortable with my viewpoint on this issue, and my opinions based on my experience (however different than your own) are just as valid as yours. You do not know me, and are in to position to question me. You do not have to agree, but you are in no position to question me in such a manner either. Defend your point if you must, but do so like a gentlemen, not like some elementary school bully.

Like I said, you apparently only know one third of what really goes on when making a bold statement like that. I suggest you quit playing with your toys and your silly fallacious arguments for a while, they obviously aren't working on me, and take the time to learn what the other two thirds of this argument are as it translates into real world business.

FiOS appears to downconvert their SD cable channels to 528x480, but doesn't touch their HD.According to my Tivo S3 (using the resolution display backdoor code), every SD channel on Fios is running at 720x480, at least in my area. :confused:

I have to agree with HDTVfanantic I dropped Dish this week due to the many fees and down rezing of the HD. I have both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. Dish HD does not come close to the picture from these formats.

Hey...I don't 'entirely' disagree with him either! But when he forces one into a completely opposing view by being hard-headed and downright childish, its next to impossible to compromise or reach a common ground at that point. I acknowledge what he said as true, I just do not agree with his bold conclusions, as there is much more to consider. There always is...

Thanks to HDTVFanAtic for monitoring the quality of HD and the destruction of HD by some stations and providers. It is completely irrelevant whether either E* or D* is better than the other. What matters is that both have taken steps to degrade HD quality over time. The stats and history presented here help us, the consumers, make educated decisions when choosing our providers.

As a Comcast customer who is very satisfied with quality but less satisfied with hardware, pricing, and the rollout of new HD programming, I am always looking at options. Without knowledge of the facts and stats presented here, I would be a less informed customer.

As for business models, it's too early to tell how this will all play out. However, I have had multiple visitors over the years (mostly with D*) question pixellation during an HD broadcast, and they were not impressed. I think this issue is enough to drive people to or from providers, especially if there is at least one quality option.

I thought that Ciel-2 (the 129 replacement) was a massive spotbeam bird. Even with fewer transponders, couldn't E* be getting more coverage overall? And Ciel-2 will free E5 to go somewhere better suited to it's footprint.

I think many of people who speak highly of D* on this board could care less what they are sending. They would still have the same opinions if they sent 320X220. If any of you are relying on D* to be the hd savior you better think again. They might start off good with the new sats but how long will it last? D* is the originator of Hdlite and will continue to make strides in this area. E* isn't any better. After seeing D* and E* compared to Comcast I think I will cancel E* asap.

6) Reduced the resolution of A&EHD from 1920 to 1440.

Really? I thought A&EHD was 720p??

I think many of people who speak highly of D* on this board could care less what they are sending. They would still have the same opinions if they sent 320X220. If any of you are relying on D* to be the hd savior you better think again. They might start off good with the new sats but how long will it last? D* is the originator of Hdlite and will continue to make strides in this area. E* isn't any better. After seeing D* and E* compared to Comcast I think I will cancel E* asap.

And it is obvious that all of those that have been 'touting' the superior PQ on E* don't really know what they are talking about - none (except the HDFan) have even noticed that they are now watching the same HD lite stuff they have been putting down for a year now. Where is ALL of the indignation from the E* subs?

What is the difference who had it first? The point is only that both (and most of the cablecos) DON'T have bandwidth to give full rezz (or many new channels). That will be changing soon - thanks to the good planning and large investment that DirecTV has made for the future. Yeah, future is future, but the same argument is past is past - and as nicely documented here - E*'s glory is PAST - and it doesn't look like they are well positioned for the next 2-3 years either.

Really? I thought A&EHD was 720p??

It is...at least according to the programming synopsis...oops...

And it is obvious that all of those that have been 'touting' the superior PQ on E* don't really know what they are talking about - none (except the HDFan) have even noticed that they are now watching the same HD lite stuff they have been putting down for a year now. Where is ALL of the indignation from the E* subs?

What is the difference who had it first? The point is only that both (and most of the cablecos) DON'T have bandwidth to give full rezz (or many new channels). That will be changing soon - thanks to the good planning and large investment that DirecTV has made for the future. Yeah, future is future, but the same argument is past is past - and as nicely documented here - E*'s glory is PAST - and it doesn't look like they are well positioned for the next 2-3 years either.

you really need validation that bad...dont you...lol... :D

I hope all of the so-called experts here use all their energy to write or call E* or D* with all their concerns instead of just whining, complaining and arguing on this forum.

I have family members who are both HD sat subscribers (one D*, the other E*), while I've been with dig cable (Comcast) most of the time I've had HD (did have VOOM fror a short while before they folded/got absorbed by E*).

Don't know the tech specifics that some seem to constantly bicker over on this thread. I only know what my own 2 eyes tell me. And that is that Comcast HD (in the Fresno CA market area at least) is visually superior to either sat provider's signal I see at relative's houses. Not only that, but SD is actually better to. Far more compression artifacts on both sat signal.

Granted, my Comcast SD PQ improved after swapping out my Moto DVR (6412) for a newer model (6416 Series III) that has a better video chip.

Comcast loses in terms of $$, hardware (those Moto DVRs can suck @ times) and new HD channel rollouts. But they do win hands-down in terms of overall PQ---which is why we all went HD in the first place, right?

Plus that OnDemand feature is pretty sweet. Something neither sat company can offer right now.

you really need validation that bad...dont you...lol... :D

The pot calling the kettle black - get over yourself. If we look at who has spent more time typing in this thread - its YOU pal. And it's NOT EVEN CLOSE.

Everything you have called HDFan and others is exactly what YOU have been doing here.

vampz - you have made ALL of the following personal attacks in this thread. they are funny - especially the ones about growing up or acting like a baby. here is what YOU have posted here:

Save the BS fanboy rah-rah

...Settle down there, Edgar Cayce

I don't know where you are coming from with this nonsense, but your statement is obviously pre-mature. I don't even know why you felt compelled to make it unless you just felt like causing trouble (again)...

This thread is just HDfan swatting the hornets nest again just to start trouble

And his habit of going right for the elementary-school insults,

Rather than respond directly to your litany of BS

Now stop acting like a spoiled six year old.

Now grow up already...

Now stop acting like a big baby

Defend your point if you must, but do so like a gentlemen, not like some elementary school bully.


and finally you summed yourself up as follows:

It became an ego thing all the way around after that...


Stop YOUR childish behavior already!

I hope all of the so-called experts here use all their energy to write or call E* or D* with all their concerns instead of just whining, complaining and arguing on this forum.

I actually called yesterday to D*

And it is obvious that all of those that have been 'touting' the superior PQ on E* don't really know what they are talking about - none (except the HDFan) have even noticed that they are now watching the same HD lite stuff they have been putting down for a year now. Where is ALL of the indignation from the E* subs?

What is the difference who had it first? The point is only that both (and most of the cablecos) DON'T have bandwidth to give full rezz (or many new channels). That will be changing soon - thanks to the good planning and large investment that DirecTV has made for the future. Yeah, future is future, but the same argument is past is past - and as nicely documented here - E*'s glory is PAST - and it doesn't look like they are well positioned for the next 2-3 years either.


Wrong, E* (hdlite) was posted here many times already. If you are a regular member of this board you couldn't miss that fact. Obviously, you are so much in love with D* that you would never admit their shortcomings.

vampz - you have made ALL of the following personal attacks in this thread. they are funny - especially the ones about growing up or acting like a baby. here is what YOU have posted here:

Save the BS fanboy rah-rah

...Settle down there, Edgar Cayce

I don't know where you are coming from with this nonsense, but your statement is obviously pre-mature. I don't even know why you felt compelled to make it unless you just felt like causing trouble (again)...

This thread is just HDfan swatting the hornets nest again just to start trouble

And his habit of going right for the elementary-school insults,

Rather than respond directly to your litany of BS

Now stop acting like a spoiled six year old.

Now grow up already...

Now stop acting like a big baby

Defend your point if you must, but do so like a gentlemen, not like some elementary school bully.


and finally you summed yourself up as follows:

It became an ego thing all the way around after that...


Stop YOUR childish behavior already!


intentional misquotes taken out of context prove nothing. You should know that...

However when I made those statements in their original context...they were indeed very relevant...by placing those quotes back into their original context, you will see that my more pithier commentary was in direct response to the blatant abuse I was receiving at the hands of HDfan. by placing those quotes back into their original context, you will also see that in spite of the abusive situation, I still handled my replys in a dignified manner. Much more so than the situation warranted, given his behavior.

The pot calling the kettle black - get over yourself. If we look at who has spent more time typing in this thread - its YOU pal. And it's NOT EVEN CLOSE.

Everything you have called HDFan and others is exactly what YOU have been doing here.

When someone makes a BS comment, I call them out on it...if they can't handle it, this is what happens...

Like your religious unrequited loyalty to Directv! (In case you haven't noticed, I'm not the only one who finds this ridiculous) You want so desparately to validate your position on the superiority of D* that you will side with the ramblings on someone who had been coming across as a madman! Fine..D* is great, soley because you get to spend 500 dollars a year on sports....great! :D

My position D* is simple, whether or not you agree with it. D* has a history of mistreating thier HD subs. All this "great planning" you refer to on D*'s part is the end result of a history of "bad planning", not unlike what you and HDfan are accusing E* of doing now. D* is not just launching sats and promising channels, they are pledging to turn completely around in terms of their previous treatment of their basic HDTV customer. They are pledging to turn their years of neglect into the new priority. Is that right? We are lead to believe that after years of neglect that HDTV is now a priority? Now THAT is what waits to be seen as far as I'm concerned. It will be interesting to see if they restore full resolution after so adamantly arguing their right to broadcast at 1280 to begin with.

As for E*, who cares? I don't disagree with HDfan's stats, I just disagree with his conculsions. E* HD is not 'dead'. It is still alive and well and is generally superior to D*'s basic offering at this juncture, and will be for quite some time. AT least until D* eventually lives up to all its hype. But for now? Declaring E*'s HDTV program offering dead so prematurely is downright incorrect and irresponsible if done so by anyone claiming to be an authority on the subject.

Thread closed? Anyone?

When someone makes a BS comment, I call them out on it...if they can't handle it, this is what happens...

Like your religious unrequited loyalty to Directv! (In case you haven't noticed, I'm not the only one who finds this ridiculous) You want so desparately to validate your position on the superiority of D* that you will side with the ramblings on someone who had been coming across as a madman! Fine..D* is great, soley because you get to spend 500 dollars a year on sports....great! :D

My position D* is simple, whether or not you agree with it. D* has a history of mistreating thier HD subs. All this "great planning" you refer to on D*'s part is the end result of a history of "bad planning", not unlike what you and HDfan are accusing E* of doing now. D* is not just launching sats and promising channels, they are pledging to turn completely around in terms of their previous treatment of their basic HDTV customer. They are pledging to turn their years of neglect into the new priority. Is that right? We are lead to believe that after years of neglect that HDTV is now a priority? Now THAT is what waits to be seen as far as I'm concerned. It will be interesting to see if they restore full resolution after so adamantly arguing their right to broadcast at 1280 to begin with.

As for E*, who cares? I don't disagree with HDfan's stats, I just disagree with his conculsions. E* HD is not 'dead'. It is still alive and well and is generally superior to D*'s basic offering at this juncture, and will be for quite some time. AT least until D* eventually lives up to all its hype. But for now? Declaring E*'s HDTV program offering dead so prematurely is downright incorrect and irresponsible if done so by anyone claiming to be an authority on the subject.


Ok - you baited me enough. First, I have always said I prefer D* over E* and have repeatedly given my reasons - and they are programming driven. I prefer sports over VOOM. That being said, I have never put DOWN E*, I have only said they BOTH have good and bad. It is you E* fanboys, the ones that sense the end is near that are going crazy. And I don't blame you. Last year you are the ones that had the full-rezz channels and put down the D* HD-lite ones every chance you got. now your in the same boat with HD-Lite. But with one major difference - D* has 2 birds shortly to arise that will address the future - just tell me how E* plans on doing the same? That's all I ask.

I took your quotes out of context - because it DOESN'T change what they say. ALl of those quotes are childish - even if you feel that your point of view s correct. You shouldn't be calling someone childish at the SAME time you are acting as a child.

Thread closed? Anyone?
No, not yet. This has got to be one of the funniest threads I've seen here in a long time....

Ok - you baited me enough.

your too easily baited...I'm not even trying... :confused:


First, I have always said I prefer D* over E* and have repeatedly given my reasons - and they are programming driven. I prefer sports over VOOM. That being said, I have never put DOWN E*, I have only said they BOTH have good and bad. It is you E* fanboys, the ones that sense the end is near that are going crazy. And I don't blame you. Last year you are the ones that had the full-rezz channels and put down the D* HD-lite ones every chance you got. now your in the same boat with HD-Lite. But with one major difference - D* has 2 birds shortly to arise that will address the future - just tell me how E* plans on doing the same? That's all I ask.

No E* fanboy here...in fact I sometimes think I'm the only objective thinker in this forum. I'm not loyal to anything...did you even READ my post? My criticisms of D* are very clear, and definitely historically accurate. Try actually commenting about what I actually say and not how you wish too perceive it. All I'm saying (again) is that D* better live up to its hype and actually deliver what it promises according to the magnificent expectations its been hyping all along. Otherwise E*, for what its worth, won't need to do anything! And all this BS praise you give D* is meaningless and irrelevant until they actually DO deliver something and demonstrate a significant commitment to quality AFTER its delivered. And believe me, if they DO! Nobody will be happier than I will...I'll be the first one on board...but until then...its shut up and wait like everyone else.


I took your quotes out of context - because it DOESN'T change what they say. ALl of those quotes are childish - even if you feel that your point of view s correct. You shouldn't be calling someone childish at the SAME time you are acting as a child.

Intentional misquotes are intentional misquotes, a classic fallacious argument. You fail to prove anything when you attempt to use them. Not my rules, just known standards in the fields of debate and argumentive reasoning.

your too easily baited...I'm not even trying... :confused:




No E* fanboy here...in fact I sometimes think I'm the only objective thinker in this forum. I'm not loyal to anything...did you even READ my post? My criticisms of D* are very clear, and definitely historically accurate. Try actually commenting about what I actually say and not how you wish too perceive it. All I'm saying (again) is that D* better live up to its hype and actually deliver what it promises according to the magnificent expectations its been hyping all along. Otherwise E*, for what its worth, won't need to do anything! And all this BS praise you give D* is meaningless and irrelevant until they actually DO deliver something and demonstrate a significant commitment to quality AFTER its delivered. And believe me, if they DO! Nobody will be happier than I will...I'll be the first one on board...but until then...its shut up and wait like everyone else.




Intentional misquotes are intentional misquotes, a classic fallacious argument. You fail to prove anything when you attempt to use them. Not my rules, just known standards in the fields of debate and argumentive reasoning.

get over yourself pal - you do think your IT - don't you? You are the ONLY OBJECTIVE thinker in this forum? NOT! Don't tell me I took this one out of context. That is also the statement of a little boy.

get over yourself pal - you do think your IT - don't you? You are the ONLY OBJECTIVE thinker in this forum? NOT! Don't tell me I took this one out of context. That is also the statement of a little boy.

I said "I sometimes think I'm the only objective thinker...", once again, did you not READ it?

You took a whimsical supposition and tried to pass it off as me stating it as a fact!

Misquote me out of context? You just did EXACTLY THAT!

Wow....I can't believe this sometimes... :confused:

I said "I sometimes think I'm the only objective thinker...", once again, did you not READ it?

You took a whimsical supposition and tried to pass it off as me stating it as a fact!

Misquote me out of context? You just did EXACTLY THAT!

Wow....I can't believe this sometimes... :confused:

Mis-quote you? I quoted your ENTIRE POST. Bye-bye -I'm leaving your kindergarten.

Mis-quote you? I quoted your ENTIRE POST. Bye-bye -I'm leaving your kindergarten.

Read my post, and then read your post...you deliberately misquoted my whimsical supposition as me stating a fact !! its right there! But oh well, I can't teach you anything if you aren't willing to learn...

http://www.dbstalk.com/images/smilies/beatdeadhorse.gif

http://www.dbstalk.com/images/smilies/beatdeadhorse.gif


:D :D :D

Its been a while since we have a debate like this. HDTV programming is not the same without some good old HD Lite rant once in a while.

Thread closed? Anyone?You talked me into it.