Now I currently own a Xbox 360 Premium and the HD-DVD add-on. You have been quoted in the past as saying the 360 would get updated to output DTS.

It has been said that the 360 Elite can output audio over HDMI. My question is will HD-DVD's be outputed at DD over HDMI or will the 360's HD-DVD playback capabilities be upgraded to allow LPCM for the TrueHD and DD+ soundtracks?

If you confirm for me that the 360 will output LPCM over HDMI for the TrueHD and DD+ soundstracks I will be selling my Toshiba HD-A1 and getting a new receiver as well.

We will get the answer to that one the same time they announce the DTS output.
In other words, don't hold your breath.

If the HDDVD doesn't do Dolby TrueHD out of the box with the HDMI Black Xbox, then the Elite is useless.

The drive does seem to output those audio format on a PC, so there is a chance.

Good question, hope we get an answer. If so, Elite for me.

I assume it will, but can you also confirm that the optical out will work with the HDMI at the same time? I really hope it's not a choice between the two, since I can't afford a new receiver and the elite.

I assume it will, but can you also confirm that the optical out will work with the HDMI at the same time? I really hope it's not a choice between the two, since I can't afford a new receiver and the elite.
Yes you can use Optical out and HDMI with the Elite. It comes with a smaller cable just for that purpose.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/167/437164494_d76f429815.jpg?v=0

Based on the actual press release, (http://www.xbox.com/en-US/community/news/2007/0327-microsoftunveilsxbox360elite.htm) under the HDMI cable description, it states:

Xbox 360 HDMI cable: New to Xbox 360, HDMI allows you to get HD video (up to 1080p) and multichannel surround sound, all from one cable.

From this, it sounds like they may be doing LPCM.

Based on the actual press release, (http://www.xbox.com/en-US/community/news/2007/0327-microsoftunveilsxbox360elite.htm) under the HDMI cable description, it states:



From this, it sounds like they may be doing LPCM.
No that could be anything from Dobly Digital 5.1 to LPCM. Based on what the 360 has now it sounds more like 5.1

If the Elite will be able to pass multichannel LPCM I will be replacing my dead 360 with an elite, if not I will be replacing it with a core system since I already have the other crap + HDDVD from my original purchase of a premium.


Microsoft the ball is in your court

How much money do you want me to give you?

You make the choice.

No that could be anything from Dobly Digital 5.1 to LPCM. Based on what the 360 has now it sounds more like 5.1

Audio is 2ch PCM or Dolby AC-3 or DTS (when the player update is released). No multi channel PCM, no advanced audio formats.

No multi channel PCM.Why did Albert on the Major Nelson podcast say that they added HDMI to throw a bone to AVS members then? Geez, just decode the audio, mix it and then send it out the HDMI as multichannel linear PCM. Why is that so hard? A major foul up if MS Xbox 360 developers failed to allow that on the Elite. :mad:

Why did Albert on the Major Nelson podcast say that they added HDMI to throw a bone to AVS members then? Geez, just decode the audio, mix it and then send it out the HDMI as multichannel linear PCM. Why is that so hard? A major foul up if MS Xbox 360 developers failed to allow that on the Elite. :mad:

It is not possible to fix this with software. It is a hardware limitation.

It is not possible to fix this with software. It is a hardware limitation.

The HD DVD drive does not decode anything it just passes signal off the disk. The USB 2.0 Cable has enough bandwidth to pass this information. It is now up to the software and hardware of the elite console to decode the raw stream into whatever...be it DD DD+ DTS or multichannel PCM. If the 360 motherboard equipped with HDMI is unable to convert formats to multichannel LPCM like the PS3 then it is worthless. If it can, and it does it correctly, then the $79 upgrade for those of us with broken 360's is easily justifiable.

It is not possible to fix this with software. It is a hardware limitation.
I don't see how its possible to be a Hardware limitation. The 360 can already receive the current Dolby TrueHD and DD+ signals and convert them into DD 5.1 in software. If that's possible then why can't you do the decoding to PCM in SOFTWARE and send it over HDMI. Especially if you have HDMI 1.2 on the Elite?

note: Who is Ghent? Does he work from MS?

is the xbox elite HDMI 1.3?

is the xbox elite HDMI 1.3?
I'm hearing HDMI 1.2

note: Who is Ghent? Does he work from MS?


I'm going to go ahead and say no....and possible Fanboy of something else by the way he spouts opinions as facts against the 360.

Until Amir says we will have LPCM we don't know.

Edit: Well if you look up Ghent's post history all he does is preach against updated audio support so he is either a employee and actually knows this absolutely terrible news or he is extremely focused in his misinformation...Please be #2 :rolleyes:

I'm going to go ahead and say no....and possible Fanboy of something else by the way he spouts opinions as facts against the 360.

Until Amir says we will have LPCM we don't know.
Ah. Thanks for clearing that up. As you can see I don't post here an awful lot and by the way he spoke it seemed as if he did work for MS.

It is not possible to fix this with software. It is a hardware limitation.

So was HDMI!!!

Somehow, they figured out how to add that.
If I'm buying a new Xbox360, I'm buying new hardware.

If the Elite 360 wont output lossless or uncompressed audio, then nobody on these forums will get one. Thats a fact...Don't F this up Microsoft.

If the Elite 360 wont output lossless or uncompressed audio, then nobody on these forums will get one. Thats a fact...Don't F this up Microsoft.

I hope you get the numbers from your poll to support this "fact", as I don't believe you speak for everyone.

I hope you get the numbers from your poll to support this "fact", as I don't believe you speak for everyone.

Ha, the poll already proved me wrong...Oh well...Why anyone on these forums would be ok without lossless or uncompressed audio is beyond me..

If I didn't have an Xbox already, then the Elite is a no brainer, but it would definetly need uncompressed/lossless via HDMI for me to think about rebuying another one.
Listening to the Major Nelson podcast, I have a sinking feeling they are just rerouting the Dolby Digital audio to the HDMI.
The "Elite" guy sounded like a parrot... "Why does everyone want HDMI? It is the same as component! well, you forced our hand so we duct taped on an output for you!"

If I didn't have an Xbox already, then the Elite is a no brainer, but it would definetly need uncompressed/lossless via HDMI for me to think about rebuying another one.
Listening to the Major Nelson podcast, I have a sinking feeling they are just rerouting the Dolby Digital audio to the HDMI.
The "Elite" guy sounded like a parrot... "Why does everyone want HDMI? It is the same as component! well, you forced our hand so we duct taped on an output for you!"
You share my thoughts. If this bad boy delivers the audio goods. Its not going to cost me much to upgrade since i'll sell my HD-A1 and current 360.

I would be willing to wager that based upon the fact they are bundling a breakout box for
the composite and toslink audio, that the HDMI will not be lossless.

I read over at TeamXbox that it was HDMI 1.2. I read that this morning but cannot find the link again. I don't see the point of adding HDMI if it's not going to be the latest version.

Because HDMI 1.3 is expensive and still relatively hard to get the chips. This will change over time of course. Plus if they used 1.3 then people would be crying for deep color to match the ps3 option. Whether we will ever see deep color used on ps3 games remains to be seen. :rolleyes:

Assuming that the audio output is lossless (they'd be insane not to use the hardware available...), I have a slightly different question... will it work in reverse? As in, will I be able to use the HDMI for audio, and component for video? My receiver accepts HDMI, but my TV does not. Think I'll be out of luck here?

Assuming that the audio output is lossless (they'd be insane not to use the hardware available...), I have a slightly different question... will it work in reverse? As in, will I be able to use the HDMI for audio, and component for video? My receiver accepts HDMI, but my TV does not. Think I'll be out of luck here?


Probably out of luck.

Because HDMI 1.3 is expensive and still relatively hard to get the chips. This will change over time of course. Plus if they used 1.3 then people would be crying for deep color to match the ps3 option. Whether we will ever see deep color used on ps3 games remains to be seen. :rolleyes:

I'm a ps3 owner and I think hdmi 1.3 will be irrelevant for some time to come.

For now a big deal over nothing. 1.2 is fine.

We will get the answer to that one the same time they announce the DTS output.
In other words, don't hold your breath.

If the HDDVD doesn't do Dolby TrueHD out of the box with the HDMI Black Xbox, then the Elite is useless.

The drive does seem to output those audio format on a PC, so there is a chance.

It would seem strange to me to include an HDMI output and not be able to decode the advanced audio streams. What would be the reason to have HDMI other than that? Component and VGA already cover all the video bases.

Correct me if I'm wrong... doesn't the 360 already decode and play TrueHD but outputs it as DD 5.1 for the optical out? It's obviously reading it.

It would seem strange to me to include an HDMI output and not be able to decode the advanced audio streams. What would be the reason to have HDMI other than that? Component and VGA already cover all the video bases.

Correct me if I'm wrong... doesn't the 360 already decode and play TrueHD but outputs it as DD 5.1 for the optical out? It's obviously reading it.

No, you are right.

And the other reason for HDMI is for those with 1080p HDTV's that don't have VGA in.

Assuming that the audio output is lossless (they'd be insane not to use the hardware available...), I have a slightly different question... will it work in reverse? As in, will I be able to use the HDMI for audio, and component for video? My receiver accepts HDMI, but my TV does not. Think I'll be out of luck here?

I am in the exact same situation, but in the case they do support LPCM via HDMI I believe they will allow you to do this. The PS3 allows it, since just as the 360 it has special menus for audio and video output.

Alas, my HD-A1 doesn't allow it, so I end up using audio via analogs, so we'll just have to wait and see.

I am in the exact same situation, but in the case they do support LPCM via HDMI I believe they will allow you to do this. The PS3 allows it, since just as the 360 it has special menus for audio and video output.

Alas, my HD-A1 doesn't allow it, so I end up using audio via analogs, so we'll just have to wait and see.

It's too bad the 360 didn't offer a cable with 5.1 analog outputs. It would be nice to simply plug it into current receivers like my own.

Plus, I think most the owners of the 360 using it for HD-DVD, would then not see an HDMI output as such an immediate importance since the majority of owners on AVS seem to be more concerned with the audio limitations of HD-DVD on the 360 and not the video.

I, for one, am satisfied with the current video output of the 360. I just wish I could hear the advanced audio.

It's too bad the 360 didn't offer a cable with 5.1 analog outputs. It would be nice to simply plug it into current receivers like my own.

Plus, I think most the owners of the 360 using it for HD-DVD, would then not see an HDMI output as such an immediate importance since the majority of owners on AVS seem to be more concerned with the audio limitations of HD-DVD on the 360 and not the video.

I, for one, am satisfied with the current video output of the 360. I just wish I could hear the advanced audio.

I concur on the lack of 5.1 or 7.1 analog option. I would have bought in a heartbeat but now it's just a yawn. :(

If the Elite will be able to pass multichannel LPCM I will be replacing my dead 360 with an elite, if not I will be replacing it with a core system since I already have the other crap + HDDVD from my original purchase of a premium.


Microsoft the ball is in your court

How much money do you want me to give you?

You make the choice.
Same here (although my launch Premium system hasn't died.. yet).

The fact that we are concerned about lack of LPCM support now that they finally offer HDMI connectivity is mind boggling to me. First we don't 'need' HDMI because component is 'good enough'... now I betting we won't get LPCM, since the legacy DD (or upcoming DTS) 5.1 downconversion will be 'good enough'.

I want 7.1 LPCM over HDMI 1.2 out of the 360 Elite. Period. I hope my guess is wrong and they didn't make the same 'hardware limitation' mistake twice.

Elite without support to LPCM for games or Movie on HDMI is a pure wastes.. Why care for 1080p only? The A20 will be cheaper and does it all (if you don't care about Video Game that is).

I mean the 360 already do DD Plus and TrueHD to PCM to DD Digital Soft Encoder to Optical Output... HDMI add DD Plus and TrueHD to PCM to HDMI to Amp....

For Game it's nice too since games are PCM to (altought already compressed), if it does like the PS3 and support PCM trough HDMI it's nice...

note: Who is Ghent? Does he work from MS?

It's probably not appropriate to out someone on these forums, but if you do a little digging on the net I think you'll find there's a good chance he's an actual Microsoft insider.

This is real bad news because it seems like he's confirmed no HDMI LPCM on the elite. How did Microsoft screw this up?

Hooking my drive up to a PC, PowerDVD accesses the lossless tracks and apparently converts it to the proper speaker configuration as well (2.1 and 7.1). I dont care for 7.1 LPCM, just pass the stream over HDMI, decoders/receivers are coming......

If they couldnt do this I want my money back, it doesnt say "Crippled Feature Set" on the side of the box.

You need a HDMI 1.3 connection on both ends to send an undecoded bitstream to a receiver. Besides, The "experts" are now saying to do the remixing, etc, on both new HD formats the best solution is to have the decoders in the player.

I was excited about this unit, but at the price I don't see how you could justify it over the PS3. MS really dropped the ball on this unit. It seems like more of a cosmetic update more than anything. I'll take some time to think about it though. Maybe I'll just go low tech for a while with a Wii until this entire HD-DVD/Blue Ray issue gets resolved.

Now I currently own a Xbox 360 Premium and the HD-DVD add-on. You have been quoted in the past as saying the 360 would get updated to output DTS.

It has been said that the 360 Elite can output audio over HDMI. My question is will HD-DVD's be outputed at DD over HDMI or will the 360's HD-DVD playback capabilities be upgraded to allow LPCM for the TrueHD and DD+ soundtracks?

If you confirm for me that the 360 will output LPCM over HDMI for the TrueHD and DD+ soundstracks I will be selling my Toshiba HD-A1 and getting a new receiver as well.

You do realise that there is the insider thread? I think Amir limits his presence to the insider thread. So if you really want to address him, you might want to try there.

But then, if Amir shows up in this thread *waving-to-Amir* and the new xbox does not have any upgraded audio capabilities, maybe then THIS is the right time to release the DTS fix. ;)

^^^^^^^

My thoughts exactly. Amir is on the Insiders thread almost everyday. Better to post there.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9265013&&#post9265013

It's probably not appropriate to out someone on these forums, but if you do a little digging on the net I think you'll find there's a good chance he's an actual Microsoft insider.

This is real bad news because it seems like he's confirmed no HDMI LPCM on the elite. How did Microsoft screw this up?

Because they never built it internally in the first place. By throwing in this mod HDMI output, they don't have to provide new hardware and incur the extra cost.
Why lose the benefit from increase price? If you put new hardware in there, you lose the "sunk cost" benefit.
MS should have either gone all the way (HDDVD, internal wireless, real HDMI support, revised hardware, HDD) or not at all.
It seems they were looking for spec sheet data comparison with the PS3 instead of trying to build an actual Elite system.

They seem to be missing the "common sense" department that would have vetoed this disaster.

MS should have either gone all the way (HDDVD, internal wireless, real HDMI support, revised hardware, HDD) or not at all.
...
They seem to be missing the "common sense" department that would have vetoed this disaster.

Are you sure? How many who buy an xbox 360 want an HD DVD drive? I think somewhat around 1% of the customers. This means 99% choose not to buy the addon (up to this point!). In this case the customer has the freedom to choose if he wants to buy the addon or not.

But look at the PS3: the customer has no freedom to choose, he must buy the Bluray drive inside the Playstation wether he wants to watch movies with it or not. Looking on the Bluray movie sales numbers one can estimate that only about 10% actually use the Blueray drive to watch Bluray movies.

So now imagine Microsoft would force the customers to buy an HD DVD drive as part of a new xbox. How many customers would be happy about this? I would say at least 90% of the customers would be unhappy. Now isn't that comon sense?

Playstation and xbox 360 - both are primarly game consoles. And they should be constructed like that.

I think it is great that they leave the choice to the customer. Welcome to the world of HD DVD: freedom and liberty.

Same here (although my launch Premium system hasn't died.. yet).

The fact that we are concerned about lack of LPCM support now that they finally offer HDMI connectivity is mind boggling to me. First we don't 'need' HDMI because component is 'good enough'... now I betting we won't get LPCM, since the legacy DD (or upcoming DTS) 5.1 downconversion will be 'good enough'.

I want 7.1 LPCM over HDMI 1.2 out of the 360 Elite. Period. I hope my guess is wrong and they didn't make the same 'hardware limitation' mistake twice.
I agree 100%

xbox360 is a videogame first and hddvd player second. Doubt those coders are working on LPCM conversion for less then 10 or 20k people will ever use it. Waste of money to have coders work on it, espeically with that hddvd isn't even standard.

xbox 360 prime, costs $400, plus $200, for hd dvd drive and is less functional than comparative 20gb ps3 and $100 more

xbox360 is a videogame first and hddvd player second. Doubt those coders are working on LPCM conversion for less then 10 or 20k people will ever use it. Waste of money to have coders work on it, espeically with that hddvd isn't even standard.

Well Multichannel LPCM is next gen and is the future. The 360 and the PS3 are supposed to be the next gen consoles. 360 came up a little short of next gen in the beginning so they had a chance to catch up (hence the elite release and the 1080p update) If they've missed it again I will be selling my HD DVD drive and buying a core strictly for gaming and a standalone for my HD DVD collection. This sucks because I don't have to do that for my Bluray collection (The PS3 happens to do both quite well). The elite is marketed to HT enthusiasts that is obvious... HT is made up of two categories Audio and Video... Video wasn't even broken for most people...but Audio sure as hell was. If they failed to consider what their primary market (HT enthusiasts) needs for this new box then I can no longer blindly wait for them to get it right. They will go back to just games for me and lose the extra revenue they stood to gain by my purchasing of an elite.

Disclaimer: I own and love by my PS3 and my 360 (even though it's dead...again) not a fanboy just frustrated. I guess I will settle for a next gen console, an almost next gen console (360 gets the almost rating due to poor audio playback and the fact that the HDDVD drive bricked my console twice) and a HD DVD player.

just saw this


Friendly tipster Evan M wasn't too stoked to see an Xbox 360 Elite headed for store shelves after he'd just purchased a Premium 360, especially considering the fact that his TV has a whole HDMI port twiddling its thumbs, just waiting to get its game on. After informing Microsoft of his displeasure through what we're sure was a politely worded email, Evan claims to have received a slightly encouraging response from a Microsoft support person, promising an upcoming HDMI to component adapter for the 'box to make his situation perhaps a bit more bearable. Unfortunately, the support person also mentioned that "we do not have information as of the moment if the cable will be sold separately," which might mean such an adapter is only destined for sales with some sort of updated Premium SKU, at least for the immediate future. We'll keep our eyes peeled.

Why does the 360 elite not have a built in hddvd drive?

Why does the 360 elite not have a built in hddvd drive?

Same reason it doesn't have built in wireless. Why charge everyone for something
they might not want. The option to add on is there.

Once again, listen to the PODCAST by Major Nelson.

I actually believe I've read something to the effect that it's a technical limitation. Something like the HDDVD 2x drives can't spin as fast as the DVD x 16 in the regular 360 so games would have trouble spooling up. Maybe a future Elite with 65nm will be able to do a 3x HDDVD drive at some point in time.

My biggest beefs with my current 360 are
1) no HD audio (HDMI was supposed to fix this but if Ghent is right this would be a deal breaker on an Elite upgrade),
2) no internal HDDVD (I don't like the form factor of the add-on, but see above: i'm definitely not going to cripple my game playing!),
3) noise from the fans, which should be fixed by the move to 65nm, if/when that ever happens (I'm not holding my breath).

Looks like no Elite for me. :( Maybe I'll start hunting for an XA1 to play frankeinstein with my add-on again...