console colors change when you start DVD play back?

I happen to have a red border for my theme. when i start DVD playback it becomes more of a washed out red or pinkish color.

What is causing this? also my black levels start to suck pretty bad. what does the xbox do when entering DVD play back.

This also happens when watching HD-DVD.

I can be in gears of war and my black levels look amazing then pop a dvd and they become grey. I strike this as odd..

I tested my theory over at a buddies house i made his border a bright red color playing games it looked awesome. started dvd play back it looked washed out.

like the xbox uses something different to output DVD.

the look reminds me of original xbox which suffered from really poor black performance.

in closing i am dissapointed in the 360 has a dvd/hddvd player.

The dvd playback on the 360 is horrendous I think - There was a link somewheres on here to a site that did comparisons w/ regular players and everything was really fuzzy. They even labeled monty python as unwatchable due to the artificats.

I agree w/ the color issues as well.

its happening because when you insert a dvd it changes the resolution to 480, thats why you start to see a "washed out" looked to everything. It really sucks, i lower my contrast by 10 and things look better, but you would think the system would upsale the dvd but nope, unless you have vga.

Licensing agreements prohibit DVD upscaling over component. If you want upscaled DVD, you must use RGB output, or HDMI output on the upcoming Elite SKU.

That said, note that many displays do not use a compatible colorspace on their RGB input, and as a result, colors from the Xbox360 may appear out of whack. This is a display limitation, not an Xbox360 limitation, although I've never understand why Microsoft didn't provide switchable colorspace modes to accomodate all displays.

The DVD playback of the Xbox360 is the best of any console on the market by a wide margin, although it still lags far behind the best standalone players. You can read more here:

Microsoft Xbox360 DVD playback performance (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=all&type=&manufacturer=0&maxprice=0&deInt=0&mpeg=0#MicrosoftXbox%20360%20HD%20DVD%20Add-On)

i didn't realize until about a month ago when i purchased a stand alone DVD how horrible DVD playback was on on the 360. i also read the article that ice mentioned, which was ultimately what made me decide to get a stand alone.

so your telling me that changing resolutions from 720p to 480p can physically change the color space ?

i am not buying it. besides like I originally said the same thing happens with HD-DVD. the output in color looks like crap and the black levels just seem way to off in comparison to video games. if the xbox can make video games look correct then it should have no problem with DVD/ HDDVD

What?! The 360 does not perform well as a DVD playback machine? I am shocked and dismayed! ;)

Its better than the PS2 at least. Wow that was bad. Its a nice feature, but no one should be confused that the 360 is a top of the line DVD player.

so your telling me that changing resolutions from 720p to 480p can physically change the color space ?The act of changing 480p to 720p doesn't change the color space.

However, the RGB and component outputs on many displays use a different color space. And you can't get upconverted output (720p or 1080i) on DVDs over component. Just compare the 480p output over component and RGB to see whether the issue affects your display; if the colors on RGB and component look identical, then your display correctly handles the signal from the Xbox360.

umm the 360 is just as good as any other upscaling dvd player.


You just have to use VGA :)

I have absolutely zero issues with DVD playback over VGA. The upconvert on the DVD's looks excellent and HD-DVD playback is excellent.

My 360 looks like heck compared to my Denon DVDp when playing the same DVD, over component.

I have absolutely zero issues with DVD playback over VGA. The upconvert on the DVD's looks excellent and HD-DVD playback is excellent.

ditto to both above.

When I first got the Xbox, I thought the playback was horrible.
Today, with VGA upconversion, it stands right next to my Tosh HDDVD player.
It is a little too bright on my TV via VGA but the picture is very sharp.

When I first got the Xbox, I thought the playback was horrible.
Today, with VGA upconversion, it stands right next to my Tosh HDDVD player.
It is a little too bright on my TV via VGA but the picture is very sharp.


my problem is why does the colorspace change when playing a DVD or even a HD-DVD ?

when playing a HD-DVD it would maintaine the correct resolution for my tv over analog component. However the color space is actually changing when you put a dVD or HDDVD into the drive. i am just talking about MENU of 360 itself i tested this on 2 xbox's. the output looks like xbox 1 where colors are bit wishy washy and blacks just dont look black.

i can adjust settings on my tv to make the picture much more persentable but then games look off because the 360 is obviously using 2 different color spaces to perform gaming playback and dvd playback. i may pick up a VGA cable to see if that helps but i just think its something software related more so then hardware..

If the 360 is behaving, changing from HD to SD will change the color space. HD uses ITU 709, while SD uses ITU 601. As for the issue you're seeing, are you saying that if you play a DVD then quit and come back to the dashboard (or power off and back on), you have a different color space than if you play a game and come back? What happens if you play a DVD, go to the dash, put in a game, then come back to the dash?

I haven't noticed this behavior on my setup, but I'll check tonight to see if I can see something similar.

my problem is why does the colorspace change when playing a DVD or even a HD-DVD ?The color decoder in your TV determines what colors it should put on the screen.

DVD, HD-DVD, and Blu-ray use the YCrCb color space. There are several variations of YCrCb, namely ITU BT.601 and ITU BT.709. When most color decoders receive a SD signal over component (and HDMI), they expect 601. When color decoders receive a HD signal over component (and HDMI), they expect 709. Different color values map to different colors depending on what the color decoder is expecting.

When you play a game with component output set to 720p, the color decoder in the display expects ITU BT.709 and renders colors based on that. When you play a DVD at 480i or 480p, the display's color decoder expects ITU BT.601 and renders colors based on that. Hopefully, you can see how this would cause a problem if your display only saves one setting per input. If your display can save different color settings for different resolutions (one setting for SD, another for HD), you don't have this problem.

my 360/VGA is just as good as my Oppo981HD/HDMI.

i feel sorry for those using component with no upscaling and no 1080p for hddvd :(

The color decoder in your TV determines what colors it should put on the screen.

DVD, HD-DVD, and Blu-ray use the YCrCb color space. There are several variations of YCrCb, namely ITU BT.601 and ITU BT.709. When most color decoders receive a SD signal over component (and HDMI), they expect 601. When color decoders receive a HD signal over component (and HDMI), they expect 709. Different color values map to different colors depending on what the color decoder is expecting.

When you play a game with component output set to 720p, the color decoder in the display expects ITU BT.709 and renders colors based on that. When you play a DVD at 480i or 480p, the display's color decoder expects ITU BT.601 and renders colors based on that. Hopefully, you can see how this would cause a problem if your display only saves one setting per input.

No, this should not cause any problem at all. It would only be a problem if your display used the same offsets to decode regardless of resolution (which no modern display should do). A color bar pattern encoded and decoded with 709 should look exactly like a color bar pattern encoded and decoded with 601 when displayed. You should not be having to save different settings to make them look the same.

And anyway, if you have the ability on your display to switch between the two, you can see that there's no dramatic shift in black level when decoding is done with the wrong offsets - there's no shift at all, actually. So what's being described by the OP is something else. The 360 either elevates black levels when outputting DVD (and HD-DVD), or it lowers black levels when outputting games, depending on how you look at it. Neither one is so far off that it can't be calibrated for, but they're different, so you need to have two settings at the display.

my 360/VGA is just as good as my Oppo981HD/HDMI.

It's not, for reasons beyond those mentioned in this thread.

i feel sorry for those using component with no upscaling and no 1080p for hddvd :(

I feel sorry for those who have to use the 360 as a DVD player.

If the 360 is behaving, changing from HD to SD will change the color space. HD uses ITU 709, while SD uses ITU 601. As for the issue you're seeing, are you saying that if you play a DVD then quit and come back to the dashboard (or power off and back on), you have a different color space than if you play a game and come back? What happens if you play a DVD, go to the dash, put in a game, then come back to the dash?

I haven't noticed this behavior on my setup, but I'll check tonight to see if I can see something similar.


after testing another 360 i am certain that all will do this.

ok i could just be in the dashboard hit the menu button and my red screen comes up on the left side. its nice deep red. it switches to play a DVD or a HD-DVD it becomes pink. eject the movie and its back to deep red. this isn'y my display.

but for refrence this happens on both of my tv's 32" lcd and a 108" panny 900u. this also happened on my friends 55" hitachi rear pro crt on a different xbox.

maybe i will upgrade to the elite and see if this is fixed.

The color decoder in your TV determines what colors it should put on the screen.

DVD, HD-DVD, and Blu-ray use the YCrCb color space. There are several variations of YCrCb, namely ITU BT.601 and ITU BT.709. When most color decoders receive a SD signal over component (and HDMI), they expect 601. When color decoders receive a HD signal over component (and HDMI), they expect 709. Different color values map to different colors depending on what the color decoder is expecting.

When you play a game with component output set to 720p, the color decoder in the display expects ITU BT.709 and renders colors based on that. When you play a DVD at 480i or 480p, the display's color decoder expects ITU BT.601 and renders colors based on that. Hopefully, you can see how this would cause a problem if your display only saves one setting per input. If your display can save different color settings for different resolutions (one setting for SD, another for HD), you don't have this problem.

this would make sense if it only happened on sd material are you saying HD-DVD is being sent to my machine via BT .601 ? why is it not using the color space for HD which is .709?

after testing another 360 i am certain that all will do this.

ok i could just be in the dashboard hit the menu button and my red screen comes up on the left side. its nice deep red. it switches to play a DVD or a HD-DVD it becomes pink. eject the movie and its back to deep red. this isn'y my display.

but for refrence this happens on both of my tv's 32" lcd and a 108" panny 900u. this also happened on my friends 55" hitachi rear pro crt on a different xbox.

maybe i will upgrade to the elite and see if this is fixed.

OK, so if you bring up the side menu while a movie is playing you see the issue? But not if you exit entirely to the dashboard and simply have a DVD or HD DVD in the drive?

I didn't think to try that last night. I also use the default theme, so I may have to switch to a different one that might show the issue more readily. Seems like an odd situation if this is some endemic problem. . .

I feel sorry for those who have to use the 360 as a DVD player.

Seems an odd statement, given the Secrets testing (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=all&type=&manufacturer=31&maxprice=0&deInt=0&mpeg=0#MicrosoftXbox%20360%20HD%20DVD%20Add-On) of the 360 (combined with the statement on these forums that the HD DVD review is accurate for the standard DVD player as well). It lies with a slew of capable players, and has the same minor issues that a great many players have. Its one glaring problem is that its deinterlacer is entirely flag based. Granted you can get much better DVD players for much less money, but the 360 definitely doesn't fall into the bad category of players.

I don't really expect them to ever make it a cadence based deinterlacer, though, since everything is done in software, they could. I have some hope they will fix some of the video processing issues with video sourced material, given the improvements introduced between the initial DVD player and later updates.

Patrick, for dvd playback microsoft chose to use 7.5 IRE as their black level setup instead of 0 IRE. Performance wise, this will not make a difference if properly calibrated. The confusion comes because when outputting games, they are using 0 IRE.

When playing games on my sxrd, I find the black levels fine with a brightness setting of around 50. For dvd playback I need to set the brightness control (bad name for this control as all it does is change black level) to 37. This was done with DVE calibration disc.

I really think this is why many people think the dvd player sucks. They end up with elevated blacks and as a result washed out colors. Once calibrated its not bad, not great but not bad.

Many dvd players have an option to change from 7.5 IRE to 0 IRE black level setup. It's often reffered to as "enhanced black" option. I wish they would have either given the option to change it or left it at 0 ire.

Read what the secrets review had to say. Quote:
" The 360 passes a below black pluge, but its default black level is 7.5 IRE with no way of adjusting it to 0 IRE. You’ll have to adjust your display accordingly, as black levels will appear elevated. The white level of this player is a tad low at 98 IRE but still within our passing criteria. I wish manufacturers would pay closer attention to their output levels, as a properly calibrated display will have to be re-adjusted for these issues."

p.s. are you sure it does this with hd-dvd too? I find it hard to believe since 7.5 IRE is an old ntsc standard that shouldn't apply to hi-def. I don't have the drive so I can't say for sure, but I will look into it when I buy one.

Shane

Patrick, for dvd playback microsoft chose to use 7.5 IRE as their black level setup instead of 0 IRE. Performance wise, this will not make a difference if properly calibrated. The confusion comes because when outputting games, they are using 0 IRE.

When playing games on my sxrd, I find the black levels fine with a brightness setting of around 50. For dvd playback I need to set the brightness control (bad name for this control as all it does is change black level) to 37. This was done with DVE calibration disc.

I really think this is why many people think the dvd player sucks. They end up with elevated blacks and as a result washed out colors. Once calibrated its not bad, not great but not bad.

Many dvd players have an option to change from 7.5 IRE to 0 IRE black level setup. It's often reffered to as "enhanced black" option. I wish they would have either given the option to change it or left it at 0 ire.

Read what the secrets review had to say. Quote:
" The 360 passes a below black pluge, but its default black level is 7.5 IRE with no way of adjusting it to 0 IRE. You’ll have to adjust your display accordingly, as black levels will appear elevated. The white level of this player is a tad low at 98 IRE but still within our passing criteria. I wish manufacturers would pay closer attention to their output levels, as a properly calibrated display will have to be re-adjusted for these issues."

p.s. are you sure it does this with hd-dvd too? I find it hard to believe since 7.5 IRE is an old ntsc standard that shouldn't apply to hi-def. I don't have the drive so I can't say for sure, but I will look into it when I buy one.

Shane

i am a 100% sure it does it with HD-DVD i noticed it first there. i never used my xbox for dvd playback before i got a hd-dvd addon.

I can take some pictures tonight and post them up of my menu and you can visually see that my deep red theme goes to a washed out red when dvd playback starts.

Seems an odd statement, given the Secrets testing (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=all&type=&manufacturer=31&maxprice=0&deInt=0&mpeg=0#MicrosoftXbox%20360%20HD%20DVD%20Add-On) of the 360 (combined with the statement on these forums that the HD DVD review is accurate for the standard DVD player as well).

No, the odd statement was the one I was replying to - that it's just as good as an Oppo 981.

It lies with a slew of capable players, and has the same minor issues that a great many players have. Its one glaring problem is that its deinterlacer is entirely flag based. Granted you can get much better DVD players for much less money, but the 360 definitely doesn't fall into the bad category of players.

In other words, it's average.

No, the odd statement was the one I was replying to - that it's just as good as an Oppo 981.

i didnt mean to imply that it's just as good on all the professional benchmark levels they test.


what i MEANT was. the 360 compared to the oppo981 is good enough to NOT spend $239 on the oppo. I have them both, and to tell the difference with your eyes, or the average eye is impossible.

videophiles that know what they are looking for might be able to point a few things out, but for the average consumer with a 1080p set, there isnt a huge difference, the 360 is very capable, and nobody should feel sorry for anyone.

No, the odd statement was the one I was replying to - that it's just as good as an Oppo 981.

Yes, that is an odd statement as well. I was saying it was odd to feel sorry for people using the 360 as a DVD player, which is why I quoted that part instead of the other part of your comment.

In other words, it's average.

Taken as a whole, it's a slightly above average player. For film based material, it's a very good player. For video based material it's probably average to slightly below average. The Secrets rating was 84, which means it's a little above average.

i didnt mean to imply that it's just as good on all the professional benchmark levels they test.


what i MEANT was. the 360 compared to the oppo981 is good enough to NOT spend $239 on the oppo. I have them both, and to tell the difference with your eyes, or the average eye is impossible.

videophiles that know what they are looking for might be able to point a few things out, but for the average consumer with a 1080p set, there isnt a huge difference, the 360 is very capable, and nobody should feel sorry for anyone.

Like I pointed out above, the 360 has a glaring issue in that it's only a flag reading player. IGN had an article a little while back that showed some DVDs this caused problems with. I know that the ultimate fault lies with the mastering facility for these DVDs, but it's no excuse these days to not handle well known issues.

Any user would notice these problems rather quickly if they stuck in such a disc. People playing only discs made in the past couple years and generally only US releases probably won't notice this issue. That's an awful lot of qualifiers, though.

i didnt mean to imply that it's just as good on all the professional benchmark levels they test.

what i MEANT was. the 360 compared to the oppo981 is good enough to NOT spend $239 on the oppo. I have them both, and to tell the difference with your eyes, or the average eye is impossible.

Then your eyes are not very sensitive, I think.

videophiles that know what they are looking for might be able to point a few things out, but for the average consumer with a 1080p set, there isnt a huge difference,

Some people say that about upscaling in general. So I guess on a modern 1080p TV with good processing, you could just run at 480i (not 480p, or you'll get the kind of errors the 360 makes) with a $40 player and get something that looks good enough, while adding less wear and tear to your 360's drive. And if you can't afford a $40 DVD player, I feel sorry for you.

Taken as a whole, it's a slightly above average player. For film based material, it's a very good player. For video based material it's probably average to slightly below average. The Secrets rating was 84, which means it's a little above average.

I think average = crap. Actually, I think it's shameful that so many "progressive" players from major reputable companies do such a poor job of deinterlacing this late into the DVD format's development. In some cases, companies have actually gone backwards with their latest players. They've added mostly unneeded upscaling and increased the price when they don't even get the basics right.

And Oppos (and the chips inside them) are cheap and good, so there's no excuse.

Forgive me if this isn't in the exact right place, but I'd rather bump this relevant older thread than start a brand new one.

I've been running XBMC on my old Xbox until about a month ago when I shocked the heck out of it. I've been debating whether or not to get it repaired, buy a standalone upscaling SDVD player, or just buy a 360.

With the announcement of the 360 Elite, I'm definitely getting one. Will this definitely upscale over HDMI WITHOUT buying the HD-DVD add-on? Do you think this would be a viable solution for someone who isn't terribly picky or do the links earlier in the thread showing it to be a very lousy SDVD player still stand true?

There seems to have been some disagreement earlier in the thread over what resolution it will upscale to, I have a Samsung 56" DLP that can do 720p & 1080i. Will I have the option or will it definitely be one or the other?

Thanks a lot for your time.

i dont think there is any way anyone can say it definitely will, until it comes out. there was no mention in any press releases or announcements, so i dont think we'll know until someone has hands on.

i believe it will, i believe it will behave the same way it does with VGA. component is restricted, but this isn't microsoft's fault, without restrictions i believe any connection would scale and output to the resolution you choose in the dashboard.

The official Elite product page states that the Elite will upscale "right out of the box". Considering the restrictions on component are the only thing preventing the 360 from upscaling at component, to imagine that it wouldn't upscale over HDMI is crazy.

For myself, I'm using the HDDVD addon via a VGA connection, and I think it looks outstanding. I'm not a videophile like Eric, so for me the "average" 360 DVD playback is pretty damn good. I'm viewing on a 720p/1080i TV (HP PL4260N). It's hard to say what might change in the Elite (maybe a new DVD drive?), with the HDMI connection, and with the spring update coming in May. But assuming that the built-in 360 drive upscales similarly to the HDDVD drive and things don't get WORSE somehow with the Elite, I think your average consumer would be very happy with the 360's upscaling abilities.

there is no difference in upconversion for normal DVD for the 360 or the addon. all the scaling and processing takes place inside the xbox, a laser is a laser, both drives are simply reading data from the disc and sending it off to be processed.

i'm very happy with the way the 360 upconverts. it's rated as slightly above average, but on my display, even at 1080, it's hard to tell the difference between my 360 (analog) and my Oppo (digital) with a decently transferred DVD.