Anyone else pissed that MS said HDMI support would be released in the future when MS felt there was a big enough market for it? MS never said the "support" was a new system in the form of the Xbox 360 Elite. MS doesn't even fix 1080p support on our 360. Instead just comes out with HDMI. Now all of us early adopters will never get proper 1080p support unless we spend another $400 like a brand new customer! :mad:

not entirely. i wouldn't have paid the extra money for such limited features anyhow. the price is just off... for $480, i'd want the hd-dvd drive integrated, and wifi. then we'll talk. if they had released the elite for $400 to replace the premium, then yeah... i'd be annoyed. but the elite is so unappealing (not a hdmi obsessive, myself) that i just can't make myself really care about it.

heck yeah, I'm pissed....ms came out and said.."you don't need hdmi, a bigger hdd..etc" just so they could get their system out a whole year earlier than ps3. They just contradicted themselves on this one. Purchasing the "elite" is not even an option for me..lack of wi-fi and a hd-player...boo! Even the elite is still not a deal compared to what the ps3 offers.

This is not intended to start a war.
I am still an avid 360 gamer so don't jump me for my viewpoint!

MS never said the "support" was a new system in the form of the Xbox 360 Elite.

They never said it would be in an "upgrade" to the existing system either. Most everyone has said from day one that HDMI was not possible on the current console, so it's not like anyone could seriously think they'd release a magic cable and all would be well. A new hardware revision is the only way.

Is it really that big a deal? Your console still plays games doesn't it?

I'd be mad if I downloaded a ton of movies/shows and needed the bigger HD. But really all I download are demos (which I delete if I buy the game or tire of them) and Arcade games. So really, for me, the 12 GB of space I can save stuff on is plenty. I have no need to buy the bigger HD.

I was mildly irritated w/ the HDMI thing but I really don't believe the picture will be much different than it is now through component. It's one of those "it would be nice to have but not nice enough to justify a new purchse" kind of things.

Now I will be pissed if the new one is QUIET while mine still runs loud as a lawn mower. :D

Naah, not pissed that they've offered HDMI. I don't use my 360 for anything other than gaming, and the Component cables work just fine.

Yeah, I'm mad as hell. Just like when I bought a new car, then the next year they went and released an improved model with new features! Dammit! Or when I bought a 720P TV, then the next year, BAM -- 1080P! Jerks! Or when I upgraded my PC video card, then BAM! the next year they made a new one that was BETTER! A-HOLES!

They better stop improving products like NOW! I'm so mad! When I buy something, I expect it to be the very best one EVER! I'm so pissed off that they have the NERVE to go and IMPROVE on things after I've bought one! DAMMIT!

Nah, could care less about hdmi with all it's handshaking problems. Component works fine for me. The 120 gig drive would be nice though. I'll pick that up as soon as it becomes available.

I just got my Xbox in November and I kind of want the HDMI because I feel the picture is a little soft using VGA. I use VGA for the HDDVD drive and the upconverting (1080p). But it's not that big of a deal.

They never said it would be in an "upgrade" to the existing system either. Most everyone has said from day one that HDMI was not possible on the current console, so it's not like anyone could seriously think they'd release a magic cable and all would be well. A new hardware revision is the only way.

Is it really that big a deal? Your console still plays games doesn't it?


Yes it is a VERY big deal. I'm planning on buying a Sony Pearl projector. VGA only goes to 1024x768 and component only does 1080i. With 1080i component the Pearl overscans. The only way to get 1:1 with no overscan is to feed a HDMI signal. MS should have flat out said "The current Xbox 360 won't ever be able to output a HDMI signal." Had they said that, I'd have waited. Now it's too late. Didn't you also read? I said how MS hasn't even fixed 1080p support on current 360s. The 1080p signal the 360 puts out is a few hz too low on h-freq for the SMPTE 1080p60 spec. So not only did a "loyal" customer get the shaft with an HDMI version but MS doesn't even fix 1080p properly for mine! This HDMI Elite 360 was leaked at E3 and still MS denied it was true.

I'm not. This is the way it is for electronics. This happens with computers, TV's, cars and pretty much everything else.

If I had enough hdmi inputs on my tv and it passed digital audio or I had a stereo with plenty of hdmi ports I might be tempted.

Less cable clutter is the only reason I would consider. Kind of like the theory of using firewire with your Mitsubishi tv. But we all no that didn't pan out like they hoped.

Not pissed. As others have said, I think the "Elite" is a little underwhelming. I always thought the HD should have been bigger to begin with (and not optional), but I can live with 20 GB. HDMI is nice for future options, and I think it should have been included from the beginning, but even if I had it I probably wouldn't be using it right now.

This has got to be the most stupid thread in a while. The 360 has been out over a year and by the time the 'Elite' version comes out, it will be around 18 months. You still class yourself as an 'Early adopter' after 18 months LMFAO :D

Not pissed, I knew what I was buying. I do wish MS had avoided releasing a CORE version without HDD. I do wish every unit had HD-DVD and HDMI built in from day 1, but like I said "I knew what I was buying".

I also wish MS let us use non-MS brand HDD's with our system. I do wish they'd offer HDMI for lossless sound for us current owners. Of course I'm sure many of my wishes wouldn't be as good for them financially as peripherals make them a lot of money.

edit: As for the Elite, its not even what I wanted in the console. HDMI without lossless sound, just half assed just like their HD-DVD add-on. I'll pass. The value just isn't very good. Add in a HD-DVD drive and HDMI, leave it at 20GB and price it at $499 or less would be a better value.

I don't need 120GB's for gaming and I don't plan on using my 360 as a Tivo styled service. These consoles are fragile enough as it is.

I've been enjoying HD gaming for 18 months. If you had told me 18 months ago to wait for this Elite version, I'd have said you were insane.

People wanted HD-DVD and wi-fi, $300 of features, added for $80 more, including the HDMI and 120 GB hard drive? Wow. Just wow. I guess people don't care about speed. Speed of loading (HD-DVD) or speed of gaming online (wi-fi.)

Now that I've rationally thought it out, nope. The 360 has been out for what, two years? I don't think we should have expected the console to be stagnant and like any electronic product you are buying what is available at the time. My Samsung phone doesn't have GPS like the new ones but I'm not pissed at Samsung or Verizon. Why should I be pissed at Msoft? I heard a MSoft bigwig make a good arguement how it is like a new car. If you buy a 2006 model and the 2007 comes out with new features, the automaker doesn't offer you a replacement or upgrade.

JS

Yes it is a VERY big deal. I'm planning on buying a Sony Pearl projector. VGA only goes to 1024x768 and component only does 1080i. With 1080i component the Pearl overscans. The only way to get 1:1 with no overscan is to feed a HDMI signal. MS should have flat out said "The current Xbox 360 won't ever be able to output a HDMI signal." Had they said that, I'd have waited. Now it's too late. Didn't you also read? I said how MS hasn't even fixed 1080p support on current 360s. The 1080p signal the 360 puts out is a few hz too low on h-freq for the SMPTE 1080p60 spec. So not only did a "loyal" customer get the shaft with an HDMI version but MS doesn't even fix 1080p properly for mine! This HDMI Elite 360 was leaked at E3 and still MS denied it was true.

The above should be changed to "Yes, it is a VERY big deal to me". As you can see from this and most posts on the subject, not too many people care all that much.

<---grabs flamesuit, grabs popcorn, takes seat

Yeah, I'm mad as hell. Just like when I bought a new car, then the next year they went and released an improved model with new features! Dammit! Or when I bought a 720P TV, then the next year, BAM -- 1080P! Jerks! Or when I upgraded my PC video card, then BAM! the next year they made a new one that was BETTER! A-HOLES!

They better stop improving products like NOW! I'm so mad! When I buy something, I expect it to be the very best one EVER! I'm so pissed off that they have the NERVE to go and IMPROVE on things after I've bought one! DAMMIT!

I feel the same way Bull... HA HA HA... :rolleyes: some folks just don't understand.

No I'm not pissed. I got what I paid for. Sony did the same thing with the PS2 and the built in network support. Are you going to be pissed when they come out with the new 65nm chipset as well? There will always be improvements to consoles during a generation.

I was initially upset but sicne then I've hooked my Sat HD - DVR up to my HDMI port on my tv and would rather not have to deal with a switch box now. Plus my TV only supports up to 1080i. It's not a big deal anymore.

Not at all. I got mine for a $100 off before Christmas. VGA and 1080p work great for me. The only plus would be the hard drive, and I can get that upgrade for the difference in price between what I paid for mine and what the Elite costs.

I'll spend that cash on the hard drive when MS lets me copy full games from the disk to the hard drive for easy switching when I get a friend invite.

I think the reason some people are PO'd over this is because this is something we haven't really seen in the console market before. Unlike regular electronics, which get upgraded year to year, consoles have generally not evolved throughout their lifetime (in the form of enhanced hardware). When you bought a NES, it didn't matter if you bought it the first year of the fifth year - it was the same console. There were no upgrades. And, there was no "penalty" for being an early adopter.

The reason for this is that the hardware is usually sold at a loss, so it takes a couple of years for the console itself to become profitable. No manufacturer that wants to turn a profit would upgrade the console, when they can make more money by leaving it alone until the next product cycle.

The PS One was an exception, as the original did not support the dual analog sticks (I forget if rumble was included initially). But maybe this is a start of something new in the video game arena. Eventually, we may see more of a PC model, where consoles require upgrades to play the latest and greatest games. But I hope not - that's one of the reasons I stopped playing computer games and started gaming exclusively on consoles...

Get over it for the people who are some how pissed about this it is not that serious really. I don't see how the hell anyone can actually say they are pissed to begin with. MS stated and Sony stated that it is possible to revise the systems if chosen to do so. No different then computers all commodore 64 and amiga computers were the same and look at today.

No I'm not pissed. I got what I paid for. Sony did the same thing with the PS2 and the built in network support. Are you going to be pissed when they come out with the new 65nm chipset as well? There will always be improvements to consoles during a generation.

Sony did the same? So I can't add network support to the ps2 and must buy that one with it built in? I did a google search, seems I can add network support for $35. Show me a place online that will let me do an add on to give me HDMI? Unless you can, Sony didn't "do the same thing". I'll gladly do that. Maybe even for $100 or so, but not for $480. Do you want to buy my current Xbox 360 for $380? . Show me a way to make the VGA output an h-freq of 67.5 khz instead of 66.9 khz. My complaint is MS hasn't even fixed VGA but comes out with an HDMI version. So even though my television can support 1080p via RGB/HV but uses SMPTE strict standards, I won't get a signal. So MS can now say to me what they said to me before about a buggy xbox 1 game on the 360. "Just go out and buy an original Xbox" Now for proper 1080p, MS will say "Buy the HDMI Xbox Elite if you want proper 1080p"

1080P/60/1:1 1125 (total lines) 1920x1080 60 (vfreq khz) 67.50 (h-freq khz) 148.50 (sampling freq mhz) ANSI/SMPTE 274M-1995 - Format 1

I've been enjoying HD gaming for 18 months. If you had told me 18 months ago to wait for this Elite version, I'd have said you were insane.

People wanted HD-DVD and wi-fi, $300 of features, added for $80 more, including the HDMI and 120 GB hard drive? Wow. Just wow. I guess people don't care about speed. Speed of loading (HD-DVD) or speed of gaming online (wi-fi.)

Best post here.

I was a little ticked when I first heard about the possibility a while back but since getting my new TV and hooking my 360 up to VGA I'm very happy with my current setup.

I honestly think HDMI has just been pushed in our faces so much lately that it's just a placebo effect and everyone is convinced it's going to look better.

I'll spend that cash on the hard drive when MS lets me copy full games from the disk to the hard drive for easy switching when I get a friend invite.

Get used to your 20gb then. I don't see that ever happening.

Why would anyone be upset. Your probabaly just 3 or 4 more ring of death's away from getting a replacement that includes HDMI! Excellent news!

Eventually, we may see more of a PC model, where consoles require upgrades to play the latest and greatest games. .

This isn't a "PC upgrade" situation. It's more of a Mac upgrade plan where you must buy a whole new computer and there is no way to upgrade. Again I'd gladly upgrade, but buying a whole new $480 console isn't my idea of an "upgrade".

Why would anyone be upset. Your probabaly just 3 or 4 more ring of death's away from getting a replacement that includes HDMI! Excellent news!

lol :eek:

I think the reason some people are PO'd over this is because this is something we haven't really seen in the console market before. Unlike regular electronics, which get upgraded year to year, consoles have generally not evolved throughout their lifetime (in the form of enhanced hardware). When you bought a NES, it didn't matter if you bought it the first year of the fifth year - it was the same console. There were no upgrades. And, there was no "penalty" for being an early adopter.

The reason for this is that the hardware is usually sold at a loss, so it takes a couple of years for the console itself to become profitable. No manufacturer that wants to turn a profit would upgrade the console, when they can make more money by leaving it alone until the next product cycle.

The PS One was an exception, as the original did not support the dual analog sticks (I forget if rumble was included initially). But maybe this is a start of something new in the video game arena. Eventually, we may see more of a PC model, where consoles require upgrades to play the latest and greatest games. But I hope not - that's one of the reasons I stopped playing computer games and started gaming exclusively on consoles...

There still is no penalty. There won't be any games that can't play on the core system. All new systems will do is add convenience and minor functionality.

One thing MS needs to look at is reclaiming 20GB hard drives from people that upgrade to a 120GB hard drive. Then if a developer wants to make a game that requires a hard drive, they can have a second SKU and package the game with a 20GB drive.

I remember with the NES you couldn't save games until Zelda came out with a small amount of memory in the game cartridge.

I think the reason some people are PO'd over this is because this is something we haven't really seen in the console market before. Unlike regular electronics, which get upgraded year to year, consoles have generally not evolved throughout their lifetime (in the form of enhanced hardware). When you bought a NES, it didn't matter if you bought it the first year of the fifth year - it was the same console. There were no upgrades. And, there was no "penalty" for being an early adopter.

The reason for this is that the hardware is usually sold at a loss, so it takes a couple of years for the console itself to become profitable. No manufacturer that wants to turn a profit would upgrade the console, when they can make more money by leaving it alone until the next product cycle.

The PS One was an exception, as the original did not support the dual analog sticks (I forget if rumble was included initially). But maybe this is a start of something new in the video game arena. Eventually, we may see more of a PC model, where consoles require upgrades to play the latest and greatest games. But I hope not - that's one of the reasons I stopped playing computer games and started gaming exclusively on consoles...

Theres no way to spin this but as someone whining or being a crybaby. Early adopters have always suffered from casualties of the "have it first" syndrome. Having a new & improved product released is one of the ill side effects of being an early adopter. Hell its the MAIN reason I joined this forum 6 years ago. Was to try and predict what products are the best bang for the buck today AND tomorrow.

Yes consoles may have had much longer lifetimes in the past.. but the world is much different now from where it was 10, 15, 20 years ago. Technology increases at a far more advanced than ever seen before and you cant honestly expect any piece of electronic equipment to remain with the same features and same price as it did 18 months ago.

Especially when you are talking about gaming consoles that have the power to rival and surpass your home PC's in various performance variables.

Honestly couldn't care less,I'm quite content with what I have now.

In the grand scheme of things, I'm not that pissed. However, I am getting tired of the constant re-release of "newer, better" products all the time, when it results in me having to buy new stuff all the time. A company that could put some foresight into their upgrade path would get a LOT of my support.

I love my gear as much as all of you, but in the past few years I've bought about 3 DVD players (to get DTS, then SACD, then progressive scan, etc etc...), multiple receivers, 2 xboxes, and who knows how many PCs, and at some point I get tired of ending up with yet another extra piece of equipment simply because the manufacturer thinks I'll keep buying a new SKU.

Look at how PCs are made - you can add/remove/replace parts like video cards, HDDs, mice, monitors etc... There's no reason MS couldn't have foreseen future upgrades and planned ahead for the sake of us "early adopters", but clearly, the reason they didn't is that they planned on getting us to buy a new SKU instead.

They want to make a locked box that nobody can customize, fine, but at least make it so that people can add features instead of having to throw the thing out and start again.

I'll gladly shell out for a Wii before I buy an Elite 360 for an HDMI cable, and yes, it's out of spite. It DOES matter to me that I don't have HDMI now, I was waiting for them to release something, thinking "hey, they're Microsoft, they're smart enough to have planned ahead for HDMI support, right?"...

If you have me the option in Nov 05 to buy one for $399 or wait till April 07 for a $479 model with HDMI, I'd be in the same spot I am now. A 360 under my tv and a rack of games to the left.

Get used to your 20gb then. I don't see that ever happening.

You can put everything else under the sun on the hard drive, why not games? It is a gaming machine after all...isn't it? ;)

Switching disks make cross game invites practically useless.

you cant honestly expect any piece of electronic equipment to remain with the same features and same price as it did 18 months ago.

Good point. This is anothe reason why I don't feel this Elite is a very good value, when it hits the 360 will have been out for about 18 months. Stores are already offerring good deals for $100 off or even $100 off plus $50 gift cards when buyin the Pro (is that the name for the $399 package?).

There won't be any games that can't play on the core system.

There already are and have been for quite a long time. Though I don't expect too many more as it limits the developers revenue. A majority of the games are built with the CORE in mind.

They never said it would be in an "upgrade" to the existing system either. Most everyone has said from day one that HDMI was not possible on the current console, so it's not like anyone could seriously think they'd release a magic cable and all would be well. A new hardware revision is the only way.

Actually, they kind did... from IGN:
http://gear.ign.com/articles/735/735860p1.html

GN: Could Microsoft theoretically release an HDMI dongle-cable like the various other cables already available for the console? Is the current 360 hardware able to output a digital signal, or is it restricted to analog?

Microsoft: Xbox 360 supports HD Component video output, which is compatible with nearly every HD ready TV on the market today. That's not yet true for HDMI. We are watching the market closely and will continue to evaluate our solution, in the face of consumer demand.

***Updated 9/28, 2:15 PM PST***

IGN: Can the X360 send out a digital signal now, or ever?

Microsoft Xbox 360 currently doesn't include a digital out connection for video. Our platform is flexible enough to allow support of a digital connection in the future should we choose to do so When the Xbox 360 was being developed HDMI was nascent and with our current connections we support what the overwhelming majority of consumers have available to them. It's important to note that the market penetration of 1080p displays is in the single digits. Regardless, for those early adopters who have displays and projectors that support 1080p over VGA and component we have a solution and it is a free upgrade for them. We are watching the market closely and will continue to evaluate our solution in the face of consumer demand, but have no announcements regarding additional cables or connections.


Microsoft's current response doesn't yet explain how the company can rectify its claimed support of 1080p with the fact that the 360 doesn't support the connection (HDMI) that will actually allow most 1080p HDTVs to display the signal. While the VGA solution may work for a minority of 1080p HDTV owners, we're left wondering if Microsoft is promoting this new 1080p capability primarily to blunt the onslaught of the PlayStation 3, which supports HDMI and 1080p.

Back in the days before the 360 launched, Microsoft stated that HDMI wires for the Xbox 360 would be released "when the market called for them." If the Xbox 360 is really going to be a 1080p machine, we're pretty sure the market is calling for HDMI wires right now. The next question is whether Microsoft will hear it.I

IGN is not asking about a new model, they are interviewing based on the current system.

This was obviously enough to mislead IGN who had this to say:

Microsoft just got back to us to clarify the Xbox 360's ability to transmit a digital signal. In short, it can, which means that Microsoft could conceivably release an HDMI cable for the Xbox 360. This is good news, and relieves a great deal of our concern over the Xbox 360's ability to effectively work with 1080p. Microsoft's full response is marked in the Q & A portion of this feature.

With this new information in mind, consider us relatively mollified. A future HDMI cable for the 360 will resolve the problems we outline in our discussion of 1080p compatibility. Let's hope Microsoft decides the market demands it sooner rather than later.

There's no reason MS couldn't have foreseen future upgrades and planned ahead for the sake of us "early adopters", but clearly, the reason they didn't is that they planned on getting us to buy a new SKU instead.


Exactly! That's my whole point. I too thought "hey MS is smart, they wouldn't make me buy a new SKU". Was I ever wrong and learned my lesson. Never assume a damn thing anymore and get it in writing if you get a half promise. If they won't give that, then look to another product you're willing to get what you want from.

At the very least, MS could allow you to ship your current Xbox 360 to them and upgrade the board with the HDMI slot, or just swap it for a fee. As it is now, what do I do with my 360? I sure as hell am not going to get anywhere near $400 for it!

excellent post jhferry. Goes back to an earlier post by an MS Executive at AVS (Amir M.) Basically said we asked for HDMI so they offered it. Of course not without buying an entire new system.. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by Dex
There's no reason MS couldn't have foreseen future upgrades and planned ahead for the sake of us "early adopters", but clearly, the reason they didn't is that they planned on getting us to buy a new SKU instead.

seriously

(snipped)

...As it is now, what do I do with my 360?

Play games on it? :eek:

Play games on it? :eek:

Read my other posts where I say I can't! At least not in 1080p. My tv only accepts strict SMPTE timings. Which the Xbox 360 doesn't do.

Anyone else pissed that MS said HDMI support would be released in the future when MS felt there was a big enough market for it? MS never said the "support" was a new system in the form of the Xbox 360 Elite. MS doesn't even fix 1080p support on our 360. Instead just comes out with HDMI. Now all of us early adopters will never get proper 1080p support unless we spend another $400 like a brand new customer! :mad:
What size is your TV? Are you using VGA or component? Are you unhappy with the way your games look? Are you unhappy with the way your movies look? If you are unhappy, do you really think that HDMI will improve things for you? If you are not unhappy, why are you complaining?

Do you have a quote from Microsoft saying there would never be a market for HDMI?

I'm not pissed at all and I am perplexed why so many people are so friggin' emotional about this. Y'all need to get a life.

We knew precisely what we were getting when we bought our 360's. There was no false advertising. The specs were laid out and they were crystal clear. Sorry, MS owes us nothing. What is happening with the 360 happens with just about every thing you can buy!

What is happening with the 360 is simply the natural progression of a product life cycle.

Using this agrument, I assume you are also pissed off at:

1) Apple - for making a 512mb shuffle then coming out with a 1gb shuffle.

2) Dell - for selling you a PC with a Pentium 4 chip knowing the Dual Core chip was on the horizon.

3) Samsung - for selling you a 720p HD set a few years ago knowing 1080p was right around the corner.

Newer, better, cheaper (sometimes) - this concept drives competition and we all benefit.

I too bought on the assumption that MS would eventually come out with a HDMI cable. MS used to have in their FAQ, which isn't there anymore because of the Elite, which stated what IGN stated. That the current Xbox 360 supports HDMI and if and when there was a market, they'd come out with one. Clever how that meant a whole new 360!

Like I said before, I can use it on my old TV at 1280x720p or I can use it on my current tv at 1280x720p but with overscan! Overscan sucks big time. I can only get 1:1 with no overscan with 1080p.

"Microsoft Xbox 360 currently doesn't include a digital out connection for video. Our platform is flexible enough to allow support of a digital connection in the future should we choose to do so When the Xbox 360 was being developed HDMI was nascent and with our current connections we support what the overwhelming majority of consumers have available to them."

From MS themselves. It seems MS lied and the current 360 doesn't have the ability to do HDMI, but needs a new Elite!

Read my other posts where I say I can't! At least not in 1080p. My tv only accepts strict SMPTE timings. Which the Xbox 360 doesn't do.

If the 360 didnt meet your (or anyone else's) requirements why did you buy it? Or at least return it when you found it did not work as you wanted with your TV? At the point when anyone put down their money for a 360 console or HD DVD addon did it meet your requirements? If yes, you have nothing to complain about. If no, you shouldnt have bought it in the first place.

The introduction of the Elite does not change the fact that, when you bought your 360 you got what you paid for. The capabilities of the 360 were known fully and in fact it has actually added to its feature set with 1080p output, Video marketplace downloads and the HD DVD addon. Yet its core functionality as a games machine has not changed. Yes it would be nice to have HDMI, a bigger HDD etc but that is not what current 360 owners bought so no one should feel put out by the new Elite.

Read my other posts where I say I can't! At least not in 1080p. My tv only accepts strict SMPTE timings. Which the Xbox 360 doesn't do.

I'm pretty sure MS always billed the 360 as a 720p machine. If you have the equipment to take advantage of the 1080p that it can now output fantastic, if not you can't blame MS for not covering every possible set up and every TV manufacturer.

You said that you were willing to spend $100 or so on an HDMI dongle solution, right? You can sell your 360 on ebay for $300+ right now. Throw in your $100 and you'll have $400 to spend. I'm sure by Christmas the new chipset will be in place, and you will be able to find the HDMI model for $400. Heck, you'll even get an upgrade to a 120GB HDD!!

If you can't live without your current 360 for 6-8 months, then please realize that what you have now is a great product, and stop complaining.

I'm not mad. I got to play the 360 for about a year and a half before all this HDMI stuff, plus I knew they would do exactly what they've done.

If the 360 didnt meet your (or anyone else's) requirements why did you buy it? .


Again because MS said this themselves which turned out to be a lie. The Xbox 360 Elite is NOT the Xbox 360 standard or premium.

"Our platform is flexible enough to allow support of a digital connection in the future should we choose to do so"

"Microsoft just got back to us to clarify the Xbox 360's ability to transmit a digital signal. In short, it can"

They chose to do so, yet didn't provide it for current 360's which MS plainly said, if they do release HDMI in the future, the current 360 can support it. Well, so where is this cable they said it could? All I want is MS to do good on their promise of making the HDMI cable available for my current 360 when they decided to come out with HDMI, which they did!

Anyone else pissed that MS said HDMI support would be released in the future when MS felt there was a big enough market for it? MS never said the "support" was a new system in the form of the Xbox 360 Elite. MS doesn't even fix 1080p support on our 360. Instead just comes out with HDMI. Now all of us early adopters will never get proper 1080p support unless we spend another $400 like a brand new customer! :mad:

Microsoft never promised a cable....people wanted to BELIEVE it was going to be a cable, or a $20 adapter (and then half of the people would bitch that it wasn't free).

Sounds more like someones expectation levels were set much too high.

If you have the equipment to take advantage of the 1080p that it can now output fantastic, if not you can't blame MS for not covering every possible set up and every TV manufacturer.

What's so hard to get? The Xbox 360 is NOT outputting 1080p. It's outputting MS 360 1080p60vfreq66.9hfreq when SMPTE is 1080p60vfreq67.5hfreq. It's not the "not covering every possible set up and TV manufacturer". It's not working because MS isn't outputting ANSI/SMPTE 274M-1995 - Format 1. How is it a tv manufacturer's fault if my tv does SMTPE and with SMPTE devices works, how could my tv manufacturer conceive it'd need MS's "1080p"?

This has got to be the most stupid thread in a while. The 360 has been out over a year and by the time the 'Elite' version comes out, it will be around 18 months. You still class yourself as an 'Early adopter' after 18 months LMFAO :D


well, when your 360 dies three times in 18 months and you have to send it for repair each time, you might as well be an early adopter. It's like starting all over again each time. So how is this thread more stupid than any other thread? This is a forum...it is about speaking your mind, isn't it?

Microsoft never promised a cable....people wanted to BELIEVE it was going to be a cable, or a $20 adapter (and then half of the people would bitch that it wasn't free).

Sounds more like someones expectation levels were set much too high.

MS quote:

"Our platform is flexible enough to allow support of a digital connection in the future should we choose to do so"

"Microsoft just got back to us to clarify the Xbox 360's ability to transmit a digital signal. In short, it can"


So you're supposed to translate that from MS speak to "we may in the future engineer a whole new 360"? To me that implies, no SAYS, the current 360 has digital output capability.

Another statment which led me to "believe" HDMI was an adapter was when MS was asked if they'd come out with a new HD-DVD all in one Xbox 360, they said they wouldn't do such a thing implying there are too many old 360s. Only having an add on, again implying, as not to "penalize" current owners. Which wasn't true.

I dont feel shafted, I bought my 360 in December and I'll upgrade to whatever newer versionis out when the switch to the 65nm chips which is what I really want. Whatever version is available then is what I'll grab :)

What's so hard to get? The Xbox 360 is NOT outputting 1080p. It's outputting MS 360 1080p60vfreq66.9hfreq when SMPTE is 1080p60vfreq67.5hfreq. It's not the "not covering every possible set up and TV manufacturer". It's not working because MS isn't outputting ANSI/SMPTE 274M-1995 - Format 1. How is it a tv manufacturer's fault if my tv does SMTPE and with SMPTE devices works, how could my tv manufacturer conceive it'd need MS's "1080p"?

My TV got it right. Don't know what more to say than it came out as 720P system. I offered a solution in my last post which you neglected to respond to. I don't follow the 60vfreq67 stuff, but if it doesn't work with your TV, you should return it.

What size is your TV? Are you using VGA or component? Are you unhappy with the way your games look? Are you unhappy with the way your movies look? If you are unhappy, do you really think that HDMI will improve things for you? If you are not unhappy, why are you complaining?

Do you have a quote from Microsoft saying there would never be a market for HDMI?

I'm not pissed at all and I am perplexed why so many people are so friggin' emotional about this. Y'all need to get a life.

We knew precisely what we were getting when we bought our 360's. There was no false advertising. The specs were laid out and they were crystal clear. Sorry, MS owes us nothing. What is happening with the 360 happens with just about every thing you can buy!

What is happening with the 360 is simply the natural progression of a product life cycle.

Using this agrument, I assume you are also pissed off at:

1) Apple - for making a 512mb shuffle then coming out with a 1gb shuffle.

2) Dell - for selling you a PC with a Pentium 4 chip knowing the Dual Core chip was on the horizon.

3) Samsung - for selling you a 720p HD set a few years ago knowing 1080p was right around the corner.

Newer, better, cheaper (sometimes) - this concept drives competition and we all benefit.

Mad? No. Slightly irritated, ya. Your examples aren't consoles though. Show me one console, not handheld, worldwide that added features/functionality that couldn't be used on earlier models. It usually never happens. In fact they are more likely to take away features than they are to add them. As a previous poster stated, usually you don't lose out in functionality in the console world. You're comparing apples to oranges in this case by pointing out other devices in other markets. I can't speak for others, but this is why I'm irritated.

MS quote:

"Our platform is flexible enough to allow support of a digital connection in the future should we choose to do so"

"Microsoft just got back to us to clarify the Xbox 360's ability to transmit a digital signal. In short, it can"

So you're supposed to translate that from MS speak to "we may in the future engineer a whole new 360"? To me that implies, no SAYS, the current 360 has digital output capability. Which isn't true.


It is true...the hardware can output digitally. The elite is just the same 360 with different outputs on the back....that means the 360 hardware out today supports a digital connection.

The problem is there doesn't appear to be a digital output interface on the current xbox 360, which is why people like yourself are upset...they wanted "just plug another cable into that interface port!" and be good to go. But Microsoft never said that.....they never said "we'll release a cable", or "we'll release an upgrade port in the back".

Listen, the 360 is still in demand....sell it off, take a loss..put it towards an elite...and you're in business.


And yes, early adopters get SKREWED. $400 xbox doesn't mean jack. Talk to the people who spent $7000 on 1080p televisions only to find out their sets wouldn't accept a 1080p input, OR display a true 1080p image. Now THAT sucks.

The above should be changed to "Yes, it is a VERY big deal to me". As you can see from this and most posts on the subject, not too many people care all that much.

Obviously the marketing department at MS thinks otherwise. They could've said last year, "No, the current 360 will never be able to do HDMI, but we're working on a new version that will be released at the end of Q1 2007." Of course, they didn't say that because they know what the millions of people who bought 360s during the holiday season would've thought about it.

My TV got it right. Don't know what more to say than it came out as 720P system. I offered a solution in my last post which you neglected to respond to. I don't follow the 60vfreq67 stuff, but if it doesn't work with your TV, you should return it.

I'm sorry but I already stated in another post I don't consider spending even $400 as a "solution".

To answer your question. Televisions have two frequencies, the time for each line to draw and the time for all lines to draw. MS has the all lines correct Vertical frequency of 60 khz but has how long to draw each line the 360 gets WRONG of the true 67.5 khz Horizontal frequency. MS instead outputs a V-freq of 66.9 (not V-freq of 66.5 khz), which is correct. A tv that syncs perfectly( 67.5 V-freq), won't sync to 66.9 khz vertical frequency. I can sync perfect to any 720p native device, but a perfect sync 1080p tv won't. If a tv is syncing, it's not accurate. It may be ok for you, and you don't notice. But on any "1080p tv" that does MS 1080p, I see tearing and fuzziness. But I see no fuzziness nor tearing on 720p, because 720p is done properly.

Virtual Tennis is 1080p native, so the argument that the 360 is just a 720p game console, isn't true anymore.

Theres no way to spin this but as someone whining or being a crybaby. Early adopters have always suffered from casualties of the "have it first" syndrome.

I don't think the people buying 360's last Christmas when MS was in "We have no plans for an HDMI-equipped 360" mode can be called early adopters. They were lied to.

I bought my 360 11-22-05
Uh... no I don't feel I got the Shaft.
Every other component in my home theater has a new improved version come out every year.
I currently have 1 DVI input on my 3.5 year old TV that I paid $5000 for that doesn't even display 1080I much less accept 1080P. (My HDTivo gets priority over the game consoles for that 1 DVI connection.) My Receiver doesn't switch HDMI much less many other things that have come out since I paid $1200 for it.
So why would I get upset over a $400 console that comes out with a HDMI connection 18 months after I bought it??
I would never be happy if that were the case.

I don't think the people buying 360's last Christmas when MS was in "We have no plans for an HDMI-equipped 360" mode can be called early adopters. They were lied to.

I'm glad there are a few here like you who understand what I'm talking about. I feel I've been lied to. Had MS come clean, I would've understood.

MS quote:

"Our platform is flexible enough to allow support of a digital connection in the future should we choose to do so"


The other quote doesn't matter since it's not from MS. The MS quote is accurate. The platform (ie: system architecture) does allow it. They have been able to add HDMI without requiring game patches. The MS quote is 100% correct.

Schematics of the 360 have been out for a long time, they definitely didn't have any LVDS signals and sure didn't seem to have any HDCP encoder. HDCP is required for useful HDMI, so it was pretty obvious that a "cable" which was not based on a DtoA converter and a full HDMI encoder would never happen for the 360. The only reason I care about HDMI is to get sample-accurate video to my monitor, so going analog to digital could not help anything. I know a bunch of people's whishful thinking got them headed in that direction though. I even got in an argument with a game sales guy at a ToysRUs about this very topic. I couldn't seem to convince him that a simple "HDMI cable" was not possible for the 360.

Yes it is a VERY big deal. I'm planning on buying a Sony Pearl projector. VGA only goes to 1024x768 and component only does 1080i. With 1080i component the Pearl overscans. The only way to get 1:1 with no overscan is to feed a HDMI signal. MS should have flat out said "The current Xbox 360 won't ever be able to output a HDMI signal." Had they said that, I'd have waited. Now it's too late. Didn't you also read? I said how MS hasn't even fixed 1080p support on current 360s. The 1080p signal the 360 puts out is a few hz too low on h-freq for the SMPTE 1080p60 spec. So not only did a "loyal" customer get the shaft with an HDMI version but MS doesn't even fix 1080p properly for mine! This HDMI Elite 360 was leaked at E3 and still MS denied it was true.

Reio-ta,

I understand your frustration, but umm, you're gaming on a projector whose replacement lamps cost about as much (or more) than a new Elite will. It's akin to driving a Ferrari and complaining about the price of gas... :confused:

I'm sorry but I already stated in another post I don't consider spending even $400 as a "solution".



Not spend $400, sell current 360 for $300, SPEND $100, get HDMI around Christmas.


To answer your question. Televisions have two frequencies, the time for each line to draw and the time for all lines to draw. MS has the all lines correct Vertical frequency of 60 khz but has how long to draw each line the 360 gets WRONG of the true 67.5 khz Horizontal frequency. MS instead outputs a V-freq of 66.9 (not V-freq of 66.5 khz), which is correct. A tv that syncs perfectly( 67.5 V-freq), won't sync to 66.9 khz vertical frequency. I can sync perfect to any 720p native device, but a perfect sync 1080p tv won't. If a tv is syncing, it's not accurate. It may be ok for you, and you don't notice. But on any "1080p tv" that does MS 1080p, I see tearing and fuzziness. But I see no fuzziness nor tearing on 720p, because 720p is done properly.


Nope I don't notice it. Does HDMI sync perfectly? Maybe you should spend your time and posts trying to see if MS will step up and put out a fix for the syncing issue. Still sounds like 720p is the way to go, and that's where Microsoft said they would focus their efforts on... the resolution "sweet spot".


Virtual Tennis is 1080p native, so the argument that the 360 is just a 720p game console, isn't true anymore.

And the Elite supports 1080p through HDMI, so the argument that the 360 is just a 720p console, isn't true anymore.

You can still play Virtual Tennis on the core and Pro.

I don't think the people buying 360's last Christmas when MS was in "We have no plans for an HDMI-equipped 360" mode can be called early adopters. They were lied to.

So you believe everything that you read on the interwebs? Unless there is a press release from MS saying "We will make an HDMI cable that is compatible with current Pro's and Core's" you really shouldn't have bet the farm on it.

If you were unhappy with the quality level of what your 360 was outputing to your TV, you should have called MS customer service and directly asked them if there was a solution to your problem. If they couldn't fix it for you, you should have returned it.

option would permit DVD's to be upconverted to 1080i/p for those that have a HDTV and no upconverting DVD player.

So yes I'm PO'ed right now, I just bought my a little over two months ago after reading that the HDMI was not somethis MS was considering on the 360.
I also read the IGN article which made it sound as if /when they would give us HDMI it would be an up-grade not a totolly new unit!

Quote:
GN: Could Microsoft theoretically release an HDMI dongle-cable like the various other cables already available for the console? Is the current 360 hardware able to output a digital signal, or is it restricted to analog?

Microsoft: Xbox 360 supports HD Component video output, which is compatible with nearly every HD ready TV on the market today. That's not yet true for HDMI. We are watching the market closely and will continue to evaluate our solution, in the face of consumer demand.

***Updated 9/28, 2:15 PM PST***

IGN: Can the X360 send out a digital signal now, or ever?

Microsoft Xbox 360 currently doesn't include a digital out connection for video. Our platform is flexible enough to allow support of a digital connection in the future should we choose to do so When the Xbox 360 was being developed HDMI was nascent and with our current connections we support what the overwhelming majority of consumers have available to them. It's important to note that the market penetration of 1080p displays is in the single digits. Regardless, for those early adopters who have displays and projectors that support 1080p over VGA and component we have a solution and it is a free upgrade for them. We are watching the market closely and will continue to evaluate our solution in the face of consumer demand, but have no announcements regarding additional cables or connections.


Microsoft's current response doesn't yet explain how the company can rectify its claimed support of 1080p with the fact that the 360 doesn't support the connection (HDMI) that will actually allow most 1080p HDTVs to display the signal. While the VGA solution may work for a minority of 1080p HDTV owners, we're left wondering if Microsoft is promoting this new 1080p capability primarily to blunt the onslaught of the PlayStation 3, which supports HDMI and 1080p.

Back in the days before the 360 launched, Microsoft stated that HDMI wires for the Xbox 360 would be released "when the market called for them." If the Xbox 360 is really going to be a 1080p machine, we're pretty sure the market is calling for HDMI wires right now. The next question is whether Microsoft will hear it.

This was obviously enough to mislead IGN who had this to say:


Quote:
Microsoft just got back to us to clarify the Xbox 360's ability to transmit a digital signal. In short, it can, which means that Microsoft could conceivably release an HDMI cable for the Xbox 360. This is good news, and relieves a great deal of our concern over the Xbox 360's ability to effectively work with 1080p. Microsoft's full response is marked in the Q & A portion of this feature.

With this new information in mind, consider us relatively mollified. A future HDMI cable for the 360 will resolve the problems we outline in our discussion of 1080p compatibility. Let's hope Microsoft decides the market demands it sooner rather than later.

So that being said, Hell yeah I'm PO'ed right now!

hyghwayman

I'm glad there are a few here like you who understand what I'm talking about. I feel I've been lied to. Had MS come clean, I would've understood.

Well, you can feel like you've been lied to.....but you haven't been.

Believe me, I can sympathise.....I bought a Mits HDTV in 2001.....and Mits advertised their "Promise Module"....a free..or at least, very cheap solution to having no internal tuner for the set (remember 2001, most sets didn't come with an ATSC tuner). The box took YEARS to come out..and when it did, it was $1000......it was a joke.

Was I lied to? No.......it came out...too late to care, and too expensive to justify, but it came out. Was it sneaky? yes.


But this isnt' the same situation..because M$ never promised HDMI.....they never said its on the way.

Originally Posted by reio-ta
I'm glad there are a few here like you who understand what I'm talking about. I feel I've been lied to. Had MS come clean, I would've understood.

I feel you and I agree, comments from MS have been misleading foggy at best as well as different execs saying different things that contradict each other (happens at other company's as well like Sony). Like this one from Chris S. of MS earlier this year in regards to HDMI. "not really a product that we're thinking about announcing. "

Bottom line, take what MS says with a grain of salt, just consider this a lesson learned.

I was attacked at these boards quite a bit a while back in regards to the HDMI scenario.. Plenty of people then were willing to tell me HDMI was coming and based off the comments you are referring to :rolleyes:

Again because MS said this themselves which turned out to be a lie. The Xbox 360 Elite is NOT the Xbox 360 standard or premium.

"Our platform is flexible enough to allow support of a digital connection in the future should we choose to do so"

"Microsoft just got back to us to clarify the Xbox 360's ability to transmit a digital signal. In short, it can"

They chose to do so, yet didn't provide it for current 360's which MS plainly said, if they do release HDMI in the future, the current 360 can support it. Well, so where is this cable they said it could? All I want is MS to do good on their promise of making the HDMI cable available for my current 360 when they decided to come out with HDMI, which they did!


Still doesnt change the fact that at the time of purchase if the 360 didnt meet your needs, without implicit information that HDMI was coming you shouldnt have bought it.

You also say in a previous post:

Yes it is a VERY big deal. I'm planning on buying a Sony Pearl projector. VGA only goes to 1024x768 and component only does 1080i. With 1080i component the Pearl overscans. The only way to get 1:1 with no overscan is to feed a HDMI signal.

which brings up the question: it appears you know/knew about the limitations of the TV you have/are about to buy? If you havent bought it yet have you considered another TV?. If you have the TV already yet still bought the 360 knowing the limitations of the TV and the output options available on the 360 on the assumption that you would be able to buy an HDMI cable for it at some undisclosed time in the future I dont think you should be angry because you made the choice knowing the pitfalls of your chosen combination rather than it being a situation where MS denied you some functionality by taking away features.

Its not an easy or fun situation to be in but selling your current 360 and upgrading to the Elite might be your best option.

One thing this highlights to me - MS, Sony and other corporations clearly have a fondness for double-speak rather than just coming out with honest, factual statements. It is probably a wise step not to imply anything from PR statements and wait for official and independently verified information before making decisions.

Anyone else pissed that MS said HDMI support would be released in the future when MS felt there was a big enough market for it?No.

MS knew a long time ago that they were going to make a new 360 and if I had that info I could have just waited two more months and got the Elite. MS was missleading as hell about the whole HDMI issue :mad: !

hyghwayman

So you believe everything that you read on the interwebs? Unless there is a press release from MS saying "We will make an HDMI cable that is compatible with current Pro's and Core's" you really shouldn't have bet the farm on it.

If you were unhappy with the quality level of what your 360 was outputing to your TV, you should have called MS customer service and directly asked them if there was a solution to your problem. If they couldn't fix it for you, you should have returned it.


Thats not fair, first of all, it was an interview to one of the top game sites by a MS person. Its not like it was in a forum or something.

Second, what If I bought a new TV? What If my TV doesnt accept 1080p over VGA.

MS knew a long time ago that they were going to make a new 360 and if I had that info I could have just waited two more months and got the Elite. MS was missleading as hell about the whole HDMI issue :mad: !

hyghwayman

I know..Tell me about it. And all those suckers who bought a Corvette in the 70s, who woulda knew that the ones they have out now would have so much more power and be so fuel efficient! :rolleyes:

Well, my other HDTV that my 360 worked "just fine on" though still not perfect because I had an old HDTV. My last HDTV CRT died. So now it's on to the Sony Pearl. Maybe. I could get a Pearl right now, wife said ok. But she won't ok my getting a 360 Elite. She waited in line over night with a bunch of nerds on launch day and got traumatized so I could have a 360 on my birthday. So she says she'll be damned if she lets me just walk into a store and buy an Elite. This frustrates the hell out of me. I want my 360 to work, but at the same time I want a good tv! :confused: :mad: So currently I'm using my 360 on my wife's I think it's 20" NEC multisync monitor 720p mode, which will sync to 1080p too but like I said, the NEC wants a certain v-freq for 1080p and doesn't show a signal properly :( I tested 1920x108060 from my computer, works!

Well, my other HDTV that my 360 worked "just fine on" though still not perfect because I had an old HDTV. My last HDTV CRT died. So now it's on to the Sony Pearl. Maybe. I could get a Pearl right now, wife said ok. But she won't ok my getting a 360 Elite. She waited in line over night with a bunch of nerds and got traumatized so I could have a 360 on my birthday. So she says she'll be damned if she lets me just walk into a store and buy an Elite. This frustrates the hell out of me. I want my 360 to work, but at the same time I want a good tv! :confused:

So now we're getting to the truth it's because the Elite is black. If the Elite was white, you could swap them without the wife ever knowing.

MS knew a long time ago that they were going to make a new 360 and if I had that info I could have just waited two more months and got the Elite. MS was missleading as hell about the whole HDMI issue :mad: !

hyghwayman

There's a classic business saying. "Don't Osborne yourself" which exactly describes this situation. It's almost never good business to cannibalize today's sales by pre-announcing a product you won't ship until later. They would have been dumb to stall 360 sales before they were ready with the elite. MS is many things but in general not bad at business.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect

So now we're getting to the truth it's because the Elite is black. If the Elite was white, you could swap them without the wife ever knowing.

Haw, I'd never do that. :D

I wouldn't say I'm pissed, I just wish MS would've annouced this sooner. I just bought mine in the middle of January and HDMI would have made connecting my system easier. Had I known it was fact when the rumors were flying, I would have held off and waited for the Elite. I bought it at Target and I'm still in my 90 day return window, but I don't think it's worth the effort. I don't plan on downloading movies or TV from the marketplace, so the 20gig drive works for me.


Maybe when the time comes and I get my 3 red rings, they won't be making the premium's anymore and replace it with an Elite. Well, I guess they'll actually just fix mine :).

Thats not fair, first of all, it was an interview to one of the top game sites by a MS person. Its not like it was in a forum or something.


He still never said "YES we will offer a dongle for HDMI".


Second, what If I bought a new TV? What If my TV doesnt accept 1080p over VGA.

That does suck, but you know the limitations of your 360 and either have to a) buy a TV that does accept 1080p over VGA. b) Be happy with 720p (which is still great). or c) get an Elite.

Thanks to the 1080p update, and the Elite, you have quite a few reasonable options.

Could it have been MS wasn't certain they would release an HDMI model? They may had been looking into it, but maybe they were waiting on some numbers or who knows what. Would you have preferred them say, "We might come out with a HDMI version. So please, potential buyers, do not buy our product just yet", A year later, "Oh, we decided not to, sorry for making you guys wait for nothing." Would you have preferred that?

As long as the games perform the same they can release 20 new updated consols. The moment I see a difference in my console and a new one is the day I Pawn my 360 and go somewhere else.


The price of that 120GB is nuts.

No big deal to me....I refuse to be a Lemming and drink the HDMI Kool-Aid. CAN it be better than component cables? Sure it CAN. IS it automatically better in ALL cases? NO. Is HDMI actually better for the core functionality of the machine - GAMING? Again, a big fat NO. Since I, like many others, do not find the "limits" of a 20 GB HDD to be affecting our enjoyment of games at this point, I also see no need to have a 120 GB HDD - sorry no penis-envy type, "Size Matters" jealousy here....

Let's have some (very rough) fun with numbers for a minute. How many people in the general population (US) have TV's? About 300,000,000, virtually everyone? How many people have HDTV's from that group? About 30,000,000 (MAYBE? Probably not even that many)....

Now, how many have HDTV's that actually accept 1080p input via HDMI? Let's be kind and suggest that it is 10,000,000 (probably not close to that in reality either...).

That means that of the total US population (including everyone who would not know an XB360 from a fire hydrant) only 1/3rd of 1 percent would even be ABLE to use the HDMI for anything approaching an agruable advantage. No, the idea that the "public" is clamoring for an HDMI hook-up is not the real reason for this move.

Here's the sad truth, and the reason that MS felt compelled to have an HDMI-enabled version of the 360 in the marketplace. People are stupid. They are so stupid in most cases that it is amazing they get through a day without seriously injuring themselves or others around them. This is not an isolated phenomena either - it is not just Americans or Europeans or Asians - it is people in general. Most people are barely better than more luxurious, more sedated and comfortable versions of medieval serfs.

By and large, the average consumer is lucky the stores charge by the dollar, and not by the IQ point or many of them would be going home with 13" black and white tube TVs and Mattel handheld Football games (and not even the MUCH cooler Football II at that!) instead of anything else!

People on AVS forums are generally freakish in the fact that they even know what HDMI stands for. The fact that people reading this forum were savy enough to find it in the first palce separates them from the 95%+ of the general population has no clue what it means. Those people; who make up a VERY, VERY large percentage of the fiscal pie, just heard some dipshit at BB/CC/etc. claim HDMI is "better" than another option; or worse yet they picked up a Monster Cable package and saw that little "Good/Better/Best" breakdown and just assumed that anything without HDMI is not in the "best" category.

Sony has always known this and they decided long ago that having an HDMI built-in to the PS3 was going to be a marketing tool - regardless of whether or not anyone else followed suit from Nintnedo or Microsoft. Nintendo knows that the Wii is a non-HD device anyway, so HDMI for them is irrelevant; in fact their entire strategy for the next few years seems to be nostagila and a "we are not Sony" vibe, but I digress.

Microsoft on the other hand wanted very badly to "win" this round of console manufacturing sales competition (it is NOT a "war" any more that those insulting US government wars on "____" - insert : "Drugs", "Terror", "Poverty" or any other descriptive condition or act). They believed that they needed to be a) First to market (done) and b) cheaper than the PS3 (done). They also believed that the first to a 10,000,000 unit installed base would go on to "win" the overall race (again, done). Now, the PS3 is out and 1080p is en vogue as a buzzword for "quality". Even to people who would not know 1080p if it jumpe off their display and bit their ample hindquarters, the term HDMI is becoming synonymous with "best quality". Marketing 101 writ large. To avoid the appearance of the 360 as being inferior to the PS3 (whether or not it is does not matter here, I am talking perception only) they wanted to have "XBox 360" and "HDMI" in the public's mind.

Counterintuitively (at first, but not after studying the buyign habits of the public), people will continue to buy XBox 360 Premiums becasue of the existence of the XBox 360 Elites. Going back to my premise that people are stupid, it is nothing more than a shell game or 3-card Monte. Put out a HDMI-enabled version so that you can confound the sense and fool the eye. Don't let the Sony bandwagon start rolling on about 1080p to blunt your advantages in the existing market. AND most importantly of all, keep people buying your product by using very basic physchological ploys - "DUH, *drool drips from cro-magnon chin of consumer* I HEARD the 360 can do HDMI....<picks up $400 XB360 Premium instead of $600 PS3>"

As far as being upset about it, that is business - making a profit and maintaining or stealing market share. If I were going to waste my time being angry at every company who ever put out a superior product to the one I originally bought from them, then I would have a very short list of companies to buy from and a very high blood pressure...I have much more pressing concerns to be angry at Microsoft about like the damn power brick for the 360 with the lack of extension cables that make it easier to use, or the fact that Vista is sucha collossal pain in the ass....

No. I've had over a year to enjoy my 360 that they haven't.

"being lied to" by MS is taking it to an extreme. anyone that could read between the lines knew something like this was coming for months. MS has been saying from the beginning that they would introduce an hdmi solution when the market warranted it. It's not too much of a leap of faith to think that if they could have done hdmi on the current console, it would have been done by now (why not laugh to the bank by bringing out an overpriced hdmi cable?). So, logically, one would figure out that they were probably going to introduce a revision at some point with hdmi.

personally, I could care less about this elite thing. I think it's a bad move and isn't the slightest bit appealing to the mass market right now, which is exactly where they should be gunning for (with a price drop).

If this were the 69nm chip in the Elite, then I could possibly see a reason to gripe. As it is, I've had flawless gaming since April '06. If/when the 69nm Elite comes out later this year I may re-consider, but in all honesty, why bother.

personally, I could care less about this elite thing. I think it's a bad move and isn't the slightest bit appealing to the mass market right now, which is exactly where they should be gunning for (with a price drop).

QFT

MS quote:

"Our platform is flexible enough to allow support of a digital connection in the future should we choose to do so"

"Microsoft just got back to us to clarify the Xbox 360's ability to transmit a digital signal. In short, it can"


So you're supposed to translate that from MS speak to "we may in the future engineer a whole new 360"? To me that implies, no SAYS, the current 360 has digital output capability.

Another statment which led me to "believe" HDMI was an adapter was when MS was asked if they'd come out with a new HD-DVD all in one Xbox 360, they said they wouldn't do such a thing implying there are too many old 360s. Only having an add on, again implying, as not to "penalize" current owners. Which wasn't true.

I don't read it as a cable. I means their system is flexable enough to host a HDMI solution. Flexable like a daughter card change or such.

If anyone bought a 360 expecting a HDMI cable, you were nuts. If so that would have meant the existing cables are actually doing the D->A conversion, there is no way that is actually taking place in the cable, video has to be analog already at that point.

"DUH, *drool drips from cro-magnon chin of consumer* I HEARD the 360 can do HDMI....<picks up $400 XB360 Premium instead of $600 PS3>"



LOL...Post Of the Day!

That really sums it all up.

i don't feel bad at all. i've gotten more than my money's worth from the 360 so far, and it's only going to get better. the only thing that bothers me is that i wish microsoft would have just been honest with us and told us that an hdmi cable wasn't possible on the current 360 instead of stringing us along all this time.

NO... because that's what being an Early Adopter is all about...

early adopter? what does that mean? we paid for next gen? and what do we get? short end of the stick.....

early adopter? what does that mean? we paid for next gen? and what do we get? short end of the stick.....


short end of the stick because of no hdmi port? that's quite a stretch, don't you think? the system is still capable of outputting a 1080p signal, regardless of hdmi, and other than this, the hardware is the same. you can still play gears of war and rainbow six, so how is that the short end of the stick?

You're right, it's mostly about 1080p tv owners, which i'm not, but for that small amount that have one, and have one hdmi port open, i don't see why they shouldn't be able to use their 360 with it. I wasn't thinking straight i guess lol. If there was wireless or hd-dvd, then there would be a problem, but for now i guess i'm fine.

Yes it is a VERY big deal. I'm planning on buying a Sony Pearl projector. VGA only goes to 1024x768 and component only does 1080i. With 1080i component the Pearl overscans. The only way to get 1:1 with no overscan is to feed a HDMI signal. MS should have flat out said "The current Xbox 360 won't ever be able to output a HDMI signal." Had they said that, I'd have waited. Now it's too late. Didn't you also read? I said how MS hasn't even fixed 1080p support on current 360s. The 1080p signal the 360 puts out is a few hz too low on h-freq for the SMPTE 1080p60 spec. So not only did a "loyal" customer get the shaft with an HDMI version but MS doesn't even fix 1080p properly for mine! This HDMI Elite 360 was leaked at E3 and still MS denied it was true.

My Sanyo Z4 syncs up just fine at 1280x768 over VGA with zero overscan. Why can't the Pearl do at least 720p over VGA? Why can't it do 1080p over component? These seem like limitations in the Pearl, not flaws in the 360.

Mad? No. Slightly irritated, ya. Your examples aren't consoles though. Show me one console, not handheld, worldwide that added features/functionality that couldn't be used on earlier models. It usually never happens. In fact they are more likely to take away features than they are to add them. As a previous poster stated, usually you don't lose out in functionality in the console world. You're comparing apples to oranges in this case by pointing out other devices in other markets. I can't speak for others, but this is why I'm irritated.

For console related revision examples, wikipedia is our friend:

PS2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Playstation_2#Hardware_revisions
- Several to look at here from DVD player, progressive scan, firewire, ethernet, to a whole new slim designed case.

Gamecube: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamecube
- Newer versions actually removed the digital port that allowed 480p output.

You KNEW exactly what you were getting when you slopped down your cash.

You clearly don't understand how the world of technology works. Things get better. Your stuff, by comparison, gets worse.

Quit whining and deal with it.

I don't know if it is because I have a business degree and common sense, but whenever I read anything from anyone I know that public relations is involved. Until I see it I have to decide if I can enjoy with what is offered now or should I wait.
I usually enjoy now because I could be run over by a bus tomorrow. But hope I am not:)

To answer the OP...

Nope not at all. I have enjoyed what I have and will continue to do so.

The question reminds me of someone with insecure issues though - not saying that OP is but question likes are usually from people that lack confidence with themselves.

I don't feel cheated and I'll move to it, but I'll most likely wait to the fall and the new 65nm processor.

For console related revision examples, wikipedia is our friend:

PS2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Playstation_2#Hardware_revisions
- Several to look at here from DVD player, progressive scan, firewire, ethernet, to a whole new slim designed case.

Gamecube: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamecube
- Newer versions actually removed the digital port that allowed 480p output.

Reread what I said. You don't lose features as an early adopter. You usually lose them the later you adopt to the console. I never denied that there were revision changes that took out features, but it's very very rare that new revisions gain features that you cannot add to the original console. I had forgotten that the newer revision of the PS2 did support progressive scan though. It's very very rare for you to gain functionality in the console world. My point pretty much still stands though.

Why would an early adopter feel screwed? If I had bought a Premium last week, I might feel a bit screwed, but that's life.

The only way I would care is if MS advertised what I bought as something more than what I actually got.

They never promised anything more, but turned around and added things like 1080p support and other improvements to the existing box. Really what more can you ask for?? You want them to never improve their product? **** maybe they should never make any new consoles...

So you believe everything that you read on the interwebs?
Unless there is a press release from MS saying "We will make an HDMI cable that is compatible with current Pro's and Core's" you really shouldn't have bet the farm on it.

I didn't bet the farm on anything, and I paid no attention to their BS vague claims about the ability to do HDMI on the current 360. I'm talking about something different, which you seem to have missed.

There were press releases and statements in interviews saying they had no plans for an HDMI 360 just a month or two ago when that Zephyr stuff came out. Were they being truthful or not? Simple yes or no question, no need to speculate on my desires or my level of happiness with my 360.

I've bought three - 360's and I don't feel the least bit miffed. I'm planning on picking up one the elites as well. I'm glad I didn't wait I would have missed out on over a year of great gaming.

Well, you can feel like you've been lied to.....but you haven't been.

Sure he has, just not about the ability to do HDMI on the current 360. They were vague enough about that to go either way without being guilty of lying.

But this isnt' the same situation..because M$ never promised HDMI.....they never said its on the way.

No, but they did say they had no plans for a 360 with HDMI, and somehow I doubt they got that thing through design/manufacturing/testing/corporate decision making in a matter of weeks. They lied, flat out, and they knew it was a lie when it came out of their mouths.

Who would've bought a 360 for Christmas if they knew a new one was coming out in a few months? Especially with the band-new PS3 out there? Not the millions of people who did, I can guarantee you.

And if you want to dispute that, then go ahead and explain to me why MS didn't come clean. Give me one reason that doesn't have anything to do with deceptively selling millions of soon-to-be-outdated 360s.

Sure he has, just not about the ability to do HDMI on the current 360. They were vague enough about that to go either way without being guilty of lying.



No, but they did say they had no plans for a 360 with HDMI, and somehow I doubt they got that thing through design/manufacturing/testing/corporate decision making in a matter of weeks. They lied, flat out, and they knew it was a lie when it came out of their mouths.

Who would've bought a 360 for Christmas if they knew a new one was coming out in a few months? Especially with the band-new PS3 out there? Not the millions of people who did, I can guarantee you.

And if you want to dispute that, then go ahead and explain to me why MS didn't come clean. Give me one reason that doesn't have anything to do with deceptively selling millions of soon-to-be-outdated 360s.

exactly

I think we should boycott any and all manufacters who have been caught telling a lie or hiding a secret for the sake of sales.




Oh wait.. that would be pretty much every manufacter wouldnt it.

I got to give it to you guys though.. you guys are thoroughly entertaining in the topics you will argue over.. Im surprised there isnt a thread where people feel they were shafted because they bought a white xbox.. thinking a black one would never exist.. now they are stuck with a white xbox in a black entertainment center.. thanks to that sneaky MS..

reading through this thread is tons better than anything on cable TV right now..

please dont let me stop you.. continue..

Nope, I feel I got the shaft because my 15 month old xbox bricked and I have to pay $100 to fix it, $20 to ship it, and another $25 to extend my next 90 day warranty to 12 months. Hurray for my $400 console turning into a $550 console---for $50 more I could have had a PS3 with HDMI and a blu-ray player.

Who would've bought a 360 for Christmas if they knew a new one was coming out in a few months? Especially with the band-new PS3 out there? Not the millions of people who did, I can guarantee you.You can guarantee, huh?

OK.

Prove it.

The thing that I find upsetting about this is that it looks as if we're not going to be getting a lower cost for these consoles for a while. It seem that the emphasis will be on adding features that some may not even use (see the PS3) but keeping the high price, rather than lowering the price for someone who is only interested in (packaged) games.

No.

I for one am not angry. I don't see how having an HDMI port or not is going to change my gaming. As for HD DVD, it looks great to my 1080P TV on component (1080i looks fine to me) and I highly doubt a straight HDMI for video and lossless audio is going to distract me from watching movies. I had my A1 and PS3 hooked up to that TV for a few days and I honestly don't see the HDMI adding anything in audo or visual detail.

And yes I have a FP setup with the A1 and PS3 both doing lossless audio. 5 minutes into the movie I forget that the audio is lossless and the video is digital via HDMI and enjoy the movie.

So to be honest I think this is just a bitch session by those that bought into the HDMI hype.

You can guarantee, huh?

OK.

Prove it.

Um, the fact that they felt it necessary to lie IS the proof. Why would they risk bad will amongst their customers if they had nothing to gain? Unless they're just habitual liars, or did it for fun to jack with people, which I kind of doubt.

I think we should boycott any and all manufacters who have been caught telling a lie or hiding a secret for the sake of sales.

Oh wait.. that would be pretty much every manufacter wouldnt it.

I got to give it to you guys though.. you guys are thoroughly entertaining in the


So you agree they lied, but just think it's no big deal? Okay. People that bought a 360 within the last few months might feel differently. But hey, there's only two or three million of them. No big deal.

Let's make fun of them and call them whiners, just so we can defend some corporation that couldn't give a shite about us. YOU people who spend half your day doing that entertain me.

Um, the fact that they felt it necessary to lie IS the proof.So, I ask you to prove your ludicrous suggestion that millions of 360 owners wouldn't have bought the unit knowing an HDMI revision is coming in the future ... which you "guaranteed"... I'm afraid this response falls flat.

I also think you're a little confused on the definitions of both "guarantee" and "lie", but I'll let it rest... since most of the rest of the thread participants see the issue pretty clearly.

1. People complain that the 360 needs HDMI and a larger hard drive.

2. MS makes HDMI and a larger hard drive available to those that want it.

3. People complain that MS makes a 360 with HMDI and a larger hard drive.

not pisedd, mad or any other word. Im still on a 27"CRT. cant read everything but still having fun...

the 46" mits is in range though... then I might get a tad peeved but still not as over exaggerated as some people.

It's very very rare for you to gain functionality in the console world.
You say that like being stuck with a fixed, stale feature set the entire life of a console is a good thing. For a change, we now get new features mid-cycle. Seems pretty retarded to be upset about that.

And I don't yet understand how existing owners are "screwed". Is MS somehow deactivating every existing 360 the minute the Elite ships? Every current 360 owner obviously thought the price/performance ratio was sufficient to purchase, and believe it or not, after the Elite ships your existing 360 will STILL perform at the same level it did beforehand!

So, I ask you to prove your ludicrous suggestion that millions of 360 owners wouldn't have bought the unit knowing an HDMI revision is coming in the future ... which you "guaranteed"... I'm afraid this response falls flat.


I'm afraid your response of "prove it" falls flat. If you want to argue, then you'll have to actually come up with something in your argument.

For example, if it's so ludicrous to suggest a company would lie to protect sales, then explain how it's ludicrous. I'm sure there are others who would agree (as somebody just pointed out) that it's actually quite common for a company to lie to protect sales. If you disagree, give me an alternate reason for their lie. My reason was ludicrous, so that should be easy. Yet you keep avoiding doing that and instead yelling "prove it"...

I also think you're a little confused on the definitions of both "guarantee" and "lie",

You're not seriously trying to suggest that they didn't lie? Just do a search on Xbox Zephyr and you'll find the comments from MS officials about how, you know, their kooky designers are always playing around with new things, but they have NO PLANS FOR AN HDMI EQUIPPED 360. Go back to last November when the PS3 came out, same thing. My definition of lie is the common one, and that statement is a lie.

I'm afraid your response of "prove it" falls flat. If you want to argue, then you'll have to actually come up with something in your argument.

For example, if it's so ludicrous to suggest a company would lie to protect sales, then explain how it's ludicrous. I'm sure there are others who would agree (as somebody just pointed out) that it's actually quite common for a company to lie to protect sales. If you disagree, give me an alternate reason for their lie. My reason was ludicrous, so that should be easy. Yet you keep avoiding doing that and instead yelling "prove it"...



You're not seriously trying to suggest that they didn't lie? Just do a search on Xbox Zephyr and you'll find the comments from MS officials about how, you know, their kooky designers are always playing around with new things, but they have NO PLANS FOR AN HDMI EQUIPPED 360. Go back to last November when the PS3 came out, same thing. My definition of lie is the common one, and that statement is a lie.


Get over it sell your current 360 and get a new Elite. Or, Sale your current 360 and get a PS3. You already have a PS3? Fine sale the 360 and just play the PS3. You grown men and woman sound sad complaining about a company that felt now was the right time to announce this product. I still fail to see how anyone has been screwed over this. Some of you need to take a break from game sites and forums, and video games in general and enjoy the weather the pollen just left us fu*king enjoy and move on because the next game release your going to buy a new game for the 360 anyway so stop complaining alot of you I know got better things to do like....gasp enjoying the game system. If you had a hard on for HDMI get it if not then I don't see what you lost. My 360 looks great on my 60" XBR1 and it is an 05 model still plays as good as when I bought it.


I heard a demo is coming out for Forza 2 in April. :D Anyone interested in that?

Idont see the problem, you could have waited like the rest of us did for this model. This was inevitable.

Don't bother me. You want to jump the gun on the bleeding edge you have to pay.

Get over it sell your current 360 and get a new Elite. Or, Sale your current 360 and get a PS3. You already have a PS3? Fine sale the 360 and just play the PS3. You grown men and woman sound sad complaining about a company that felt now was the right time to announce this product. I still fail to see how anyone has been screwed over this. Some of you need to take a break from game sites and forums, and video games in general and enjoy the weather the pollen just left us fu*king enjoy and move on because the next game release your going to buy a new game for the 360 anyway so stop complaining alot of you I know got better things to do like....gasp enjoying the game system. If you had a hard on for HDMI get it if not then I don't see what you lost. My 360 looks great on my 60" XBR1 and it is an 05 model still plays as good as when I bought it.

You pretty much took the words outta my mouth..

I hope MS can come up with an adapter so that people with current 360's can use HDMI.So no-one feels left out.Personally,I have no desire or urge to get the newer model.My 360 will play everything this new one can,so I'm content with my 'outdated' 360...

I hope MS can come up with an adapter so that people with current 360's can use HDMI.So no-one feels left out.Personally,I have no desire or urge to get the newer model.My 360 will play everything this new one can,so I'm content with my 'outdated' 360...

i'd say there is a 99% chance that this will NOT happen.

Didn't read every entry in this thread, but I think it is obvious by judging from the number of posts and similar threads in this and a few other forums that early adopters do indeed feel "shafted".

People seem to be bringing up that we should have "known this was coming". I think that if MS had not said anything about hdmi or new models, then we could have suspected this, but they came right out and specifically denied it! What is worse is that they withheld the launch of this system until after the Christmas season when they almost assuredly could have done so in time for the holidays. No I don't have proof, but I think everyone knows that it is probably true. MS can now make tons more money on selling add ons (or new consoles) to the millions who just bought their "crippled" system.

Another thing I am hearing is that we should "just get over it". I think that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Those that say this should know they are in MS's wet dreams. It just confirms for them that they can keep on nickel and diming us to death. That is their plan. I understand that the initial cost of the system is relatively cheap compared to the competition (at least one of them). But, I bet if most people in this forum took the time to add up all of the peripherals they have bought they would find the total to be comparable to the seemingly higher priced competition. I own both and I have personally spent quite a bit more on my 360.

Now I am faced with the problem of storage space (don't care that much about hdmi). And MS has crafted their console to squeeze the maximum amount of money from me by requiring that I buy a ridiculously overpriced proprietary hdd. Well, they won't be ass raping me any more. I will store all my media on my PS3 and put in whatever hdd I want at market price. go newegg!

oh, the conspiracies.

Whats the big deal? This isn't very much of an upgrade. I'd rather wait for the cheaper hd-dvd standalone players than pay extra to get hdmi functionality for games. Perhaps the name "elite" would be more fitting if it also came with the new 65nm chip.

I think its funny that the people bitching about this are probably going to be the first to buy it.

you're probably right dansk.

i have no intentions of buying this, AND see no reason at all to complain :)

Anyone else pissed that MS said HDMI support would be released in the future when MS felt there was a big enough market for it?No, one of the reasons I have been waiting on the Xbox 360 is because I thought they would one day release a newer version of it with an HDMI output.


MS never said the "support" was a new system in the form of the Xbox 360 Elite.True, but they also never said that wasn't how they would support HDMI in the future. The only thing I can think that Microsoft did that was misleading is that they were very ambiguous about their statements on whether the current Xbox 360 consoles could support HDMI. That was definitely done on purpose and they could have easily told people from day one that the current version of the Xbox 360 wasn't capable of HDMI output. Of course that wouldn't have been good for business and at the end of the day that is what almost all companies care most about.

MSFT, didnt lie... they were purposly vague/confusing. I knew the original 360 wasnt capable of HDMI. So I wasnt shocked.

IMO, if you feel cheated, its because you were not looking past the present. You knew there was a system on the horizon that had Next Gen Disc Capacity and HDMI.

If you buy another console. Make sure it has everything you want. IE, if you want a quieter, more reliable system, with a standard interface Hard drive, built in wifi, Next Gen Disc capacity and no power brick... then look for a game system that is built like that

If you buy this elite, you will only be pissed off when a new 360 comes out which is more reliable and probably quieter(65nm core).

.. thinking a black one would never exist.. now they are stuck with a white xbox in a black entertainment center...

http://www.extreme-mods.com/xcm-black-360-case-w-blue-led-p.html

Oh shucky darn, $60! As compared to:

http://circuitcity.com/ccd/productDetail.do?oid=177538&catOid=-16487&c=1&cm_re=midpage%20banner-_-xbox%20elite-_-link

OMFG $480!

No cheap solution exists for HDMI like color, or the PS2's getting a broadband adapter for $35, the cheapest solution for HDMI is just pony up the $480 for the Elite. Nice to see that I'm being put in the same category as someone who only wants cosmetic changes! Thanks Daekwan for pointing out to me that HDMI is exactly like having a color change.

Maybe I can take solace that there will most likely be bugs in the Elite's HDMI that will cause a buggy TV to malfunction due to HDCP. This has happened to projectors before where a HDCP signal was sent to the projector wrongly and the projector couldn't handle that wrong signal. The projector's bulb broke from the sudden halt and had to be sent back to the manufacturer to fix it! :D

I'm so cruel in thinking that's funny? I know I should feel sad. :(

No, I'm not upset, nor surprised in the least. When I bought my XBox 360 in February of last year, I knew that it didn't have HDMI. It didn't matter to me whether Microsoft was telling me I needed it or not. Even when I bought it, I knew that I wanted it, but I bought the 360 anyway. Why? It did just about everything else I wanted very well. I couldn't put a price tag on the fun I've gotten out of my Premium in the time I've owned it, but I know that it's been way beyond what I paid for it.

I have a 1080p (via HDMI only) 56" HDTV. I'll eventually get an Elite, but not until they are outfitted with 65nm processors this Fall. I'll buy it with no regrets, nor any ill-feelings for Microsoft. They recognize that they underestimated the rise in demand for HDMI and the Elite is their response. I see this $479.95 Elite as a 'limited edition', as I really believe once they shift to 65nm processors, the price will drop to $399.95, even though they'll still likely call it an "Elite".

You say that like being stuck with a fixed, stale feature set the entire life of a console is a good thing. For a change, we now get new features mid-cycle. Seems pretty retarded to be upset about that.

And I don't yet understand how existing owners are "screwed". Is MS somehow deactivating every existing 360 the minute the Elite ships? Every current 360 owner obviously thought the price/performance ratio was sufficient to purchase, and believe it or not, after the Elite ships your existing 360 will STILL perform at the same level it did beforehand!

I already said I wasn't upset or mad. I'm just slightly irritated. How does MS adding features that I can't add to my existing 360 help me? In the past for game consoles, you rarely had features added to a console that you could not upgrade to. Features are often taken away which is why it's great to get in early, but rarely have you been screwed or penalized for jumping on board early when it comes to game consoles. This is not common. If it was more common, I would be probably more understanding, accepting, and not irritated about it. A perfect example is how long it takes to have a library of worthwhile games if you buy a console at launch. I'm used to software coming slowly and don't get annoyed or irritated with the lack of games. If this becomes the trend, so be it, and it won't sting as much from now on, but coming from a gamer's perspective, this is not normal and that's why I am slightly irritated. I don't think my reasoning is unreasonable nor hard to understand where I'm coming from. I'm open to examples of it being the norm though.

I already said I wasn't upset or mad. I'm just slightly irritated. How does MS adding features that I can't add to my existing 360 help me?

it may not "help you" in the way you want it to help you, but it does help you.

more features = more sales, which in turn creates better opportunities for developers, which also means that more and more exclusive titles on other consoles will be coming our way.

in the end, the big developers are going to to where the money is, and if the elite can create more xbox users, then I'm all for it.

i personally don't care for the elite, but on the other hand i don't see any reason to criticize it or criticize MS for creating it.

for once MS actually listened to a lot of complaints and suggestions, and put them to life in the form of the elite, they may have not covered ALL bases, but no-one can expect them to try and satisfy everyone.

the elite may not be perfect, but it's definitely a step in the right direction. in the long run it's going to be better for all of us, as gamers, regardless of whether or not we like or want the elite in our homes.

it may not "help you" in the way you want it to help you, but it does help you.

more features = more sales, which in turn creates better opportunities for developers, which also means that more and more exclusive titles on other consoles will be coming our way.

in the end, the big developers are going to to where the money is, and if the elite can create more xbox users, then I'm all for it.

i personally don't care for the elite, but on the other hand i don't see any reason to criticize it or criticize MS for creating it.

for once MS actually listened to a lot of complaints and suggestions, and put them to life in the form of the elite, they may have not covered ALL bases, but no-one can expect them to try and satisfy everyone.

the elite may not be perfect, but it's definitely a step in the right direction. in the long run it's going to be better for all of us, as gamers, regardless of whether or not we like or want the elite in our homes.

Sorry, but that's quite a stretch. More features does not mean more sales. If that was the case, there wouldn't be any debates about the PS3 versus the 360. If you want to take this discussion to a different level of why the user might feel screwed compared to how it affects the overall market for the 360, we can do that. In that case, we open up the doors of how it doesn't help the 360.

One of the advantages the 360 had over the PS3 was the perception of price. By introducing the 360 Elite at $480 you start to eliminate that perception. Now the key here is perception because it's clear it's not about the facts when it comes to price but the perception. How many times do people claim the PS3 is $600 when there's a $500 version out there? How many people think the Premium 360 is not comparable to what some people were calling a gimped $500 PS3 but it was to be compared with the $600 version? All of these comparisons are inaccurate yet there is that perception of price comparisons. In some ways it starts to validate the $500 PS3 because when you start comparing it to the 360 Elite, the price difference is negligable and I think you're getting more bang for your buck for only $20 at that point if we're talking purely about hardware. What would have been the best plan of attack to counter this point was to release a 360 w/ HDMI and bigger HDD to replace the current premium and move the current premium to the core and remove the core. That way you maintain the two SKU pricing structure of $299 and $399, gain the new features and still maintain the price gap.

So again, if anything, this could hamper the 360 more than it helps. I really don't see how an HDMI port is also going to make that huge of a difference because I garner that the HDMI port is hardly the reason that is holding people back from buying a 360. The gains you get for this added feature are going to be negligable at best.

As a developer myself, I understand the dynamics on who the publishers decide to develop for but at this stage in the game, the reality is developers and publishers can hardly afford to support one platform over the other. You need to go multiplatform at this point and probably for the remainder of the generation in order to turn profit. Exclusive titles from third parties are going to be rare unless one of the system completely dominates over the other and I highly doubt that the HDMI port and a larger HDD that is only $20 difference from the PS3 is going to swing the console war that way.

As for Microsoft listening to complaints and trying to address them, again who does that help. Those complaining are more likely the ones who already have the system and they end up not getting it.

Getting back to the original topic, I'm not mad, angered, or even surprised by this move at this point in time. I'm a bit surprised at the price though. I am also slightly irritated because it's unusual for a console to gain features that cannot be added on to the existing system. It rarely happens. I wouldn't have expected it when I bought the system at launch though because again, it rarely happens if you look at gaming consoles here and in Japan over the last 25 years. I own over 50 consoles myself so I would hope that it's an indicator of how infrequent it happens. I feel just slightly screwed because of this and a bit irritated. It's not going to make me jump off a bridge or anything but it will make me think twice about getting the next MS system at launch. I don't see how that will help MS when their core supporters are hesitant and I really don't see this as being beneficial to me at all.

I'm afraid your response of "prove it" falls flat.You're the one who made the "guarantee". All I'm asking you to do is back it up. Unsurprisingly, you haven't been able to do so. Methinks before you call someone else a liar, you should remember the great big glass house we all live in here on the Interwebs.

You're not seriously trying to suggest that they didn't lie? Just do a search on Xbox Zephyr and you'll find the comments from MS officials about how, you know, their kooky designers are always playing around with new things, but they have NO PLANS FOR AN HDMI EQUIPPED 360.The last such statement I could find was in September 2006, and it was in regard to the HD-DVD playback unit, not the 360. They have said over and over that they would support HDMI on the 360 "when it made sense", and apparently now is that time. Get over it.

I'm not shafted by the release of the Elite version.

I am shafted by the 3 360s I've had to buy due to various hardware failures. The noisy DVD drive. The heat issues. The crappy wireless headset.

If the Elite somehow did more than adding a crippled HDMI 1.2 port and a 120gb HDD I'd be more upset. As of now the Elite is only attractive to me because it's black. They should be upgrading the premium SKU to 120gb ... or more. They should be practically giving them away. If they want and expect people to actually download HD video content and buy tons of games, the HDD is the one thing they should be selling at a loss, instead of a grossly inflated profit.

Meh.

I am shafted by the 3 360s I've had to buy due to various hardware failures. The noisy DVD drive. The heat issues. The crappy wireless headset.I can't disagree. I'm on my second 360 now. My first unit had a fairly loud fan/cooling system and a DVD that sounded fairly normal. My second unit is whisper-quiet until I put in a game disc. The DVD drive sounds almost like starting up a chainsaw. I've never heard a louder optical drive in my life! Who the heck makes these things?

I don't really feel shafted, things improve over time it just happens and has happened with nearly every VG console since the Atari. I do like the black but to be honest the white has grown on me over time, I have no need for the 120 Gig HDD, I'll never fill the 13 gigs I have now with demos and game saves, HDMI would be nice if for no other reason than I have more control over picture and sound on the HDMI vs the VGA port but it's really not that much of an issue when the quality over VGA is very nice and allows 1080p to pay another 480.00 for pretty much the same thing I have now only black, Id be more apt to spend another 50 for an addon that made all Xbox games BC.

Is anybody else tired of the usual Darknight "Im a developer myself" statements. Dude thats great and all that you are a developer, but guess what we all are?

Customers..

Whose opinion do you think matters the most. Because guess what.. if we dont like it then we dont want it. So if we wont buy it guys like you dont get paid.

I think its a time and place where a developers opinion can definitely add insight.. but in a thread asking specifically "Do Other early adopters feel they got the shaft because of HDMI Xbox 360? " I think the customers opinion is whats most important. And theres no way you can argue giving the customer MORE features.. MORE options.. and MORE choices for how advanced they want their gaming experience to be.. does NOT have a direct impact on sales.

If people want a minimum 360 experience.. bring $299 plus tax. If people want a major 360 experience bring $399 plus tax.. if people want the most maximum 360 experience possible.. bring $479 plus tax. They are simply trying to cater to as many peoples experience as possible. And they still do so coming underneath the minium price for a HD experience offered by the competitor. You can argue in the face until you are Blu (no pun intended) about the BluRay playback features of the PS3. But the fact simply remains that Bluray is a concept alot of people.. myself for example.. have ZERO interest in at this current point and time. Especially when they just want to play GAMES.

As for rather Developers look at sales or not.. I think even a person with the smallest ounce of common knowledge can figure out that if you are planning on selling a product.. you definitely need a market to sell it to.

More options.. More possible customers. Is there something you missed about that simple point?

I guess Edios developers didnt. As they have publicly stated it.

And by the way to address your last post in this thread..

The 360 will never be confused for the PS3 for one reason.. and thats that any of us regular people aka "customers" can walk into a given store and purchase a fully functioning 360 capable of playing 99% of 360 DVD based games for $299.

Trust me.. "customers" will never confuse that with the PS3.



signed...

Daekwan
360 Customer

You're the one who made the "guarantee". All I'm asking you to do is back it up. Unsurprisingly, you haven't been able to do so.

Yes, unsurprisingly, I don't have access to internal MS marketing documents. You'll have to use a little common sense and put 2 and 2 together instead of constantly being as obtuse as possible and fixating on one word.

Do you really think MS would've sold millions of Xbox 360s during the Christmas season if they'd announced a new version was coming in a few months? You're entitled to your opinion on that, but it's pretty clear that MS DIDN'T THINK SO. They CHOSE not to announce the new 360 until the last possible moment. They had SOME reason for doing that. Maybe you really DON'T know the reason and their marketing people are just slightly more savvy than you. I was trying to give you some credit, my mistake.

Methinks before you call someone else a liar, you should remember the great big glass house we all live in here on the Interwebs.

I don't know where you were when the hundreds of threads discussing these rumors (and the denials) on this forum came up, but your web search skills truly suck. One example among hundreds (maybe thousands) is this Gamespot interview (http://www.gamespot.com/news/6163965.html) from a few months ago:

Gamespot: All this cool HD stuff that you're talking about starts to take up space. The 20GB for a lot of people is already starting to fill up. Seeing how Microsoft has been great about responding to customer needs on the Xbox 360, can you speak to larger-capacity hard drives?

Microsoft spokesdouche Chris Satchell: That's not really something we're looking at today.

Really? Huh. Well, either they have the ability to crap HDDs on demand up there in Redmond, or he lied right there, and they were not only looking at it on that day, but had been looking at it for months, and were darn close to having a retail product ready. I can't prove either (good job - you got me!), but I'm leaning towards human beings not having HDD defecation capabilities.

Gamespot: What can you tell us about the HDMI-enabled Xbox 360 rumors that have been going around?

Chris Satchell: We're always working on prototypes and new technologies and just playing with stuff in Redmond to see what's interesting... At the moment, everything you might have seen is just looking at our experimentation back in Redmond, not really a product that we're thinking about announcing.

Well, that last half sentence is actually 100% true. They weren't thinking about announcing anything at that time. I'd say they were doing a little more than playing around with stuff in order to have a product shipping a mere two months later though. There had to have been hundreds of meetings for something like this.

So either the two new things in the new 360 just poofed into existence last week, or MS was trotting out spokesmen to deny the truth about what they were doing all along. I think we both know which of those is more likely to be correct, so we're done.

Eric we are all entitled to our own personal opinions and have the DIRECT ability to effect a companies decisions by choosing rather to financially support them or not when we purchase their products.

If you feel like MS is such a liar.. and so untrustable.. why continue interest in their products. Think of all the time it would save you from researching and posting links trying to prove how dishonest and misleading they have been.

I guess I dont understand some people's complaints. Why would you even consider supporting something you seem to feel so strongly against.

While I'm content with what I own,I do have a thought on this,and it's mentioned above.I've never known a game company to come out with a model of their current technology,but with features that cannot be added to the 'older' model.I recall the slimline PS2 having the ethernet port built in,but you could also get a 20 dollar ethernet adapter for your old PS2,and voila,the same functionality as the 'newer' version without having to purchase the newer model,unless you wanted it for space issues.I do feel that an HDMI option,like an adapter,should be put in place for the current 360 owners that care about HDMI.Of course the 120 HDD is being sold seperately,but that's a raping at $179.

Yes, unsurprisingly, I don't have access to internal MS marketing documents. You'll have to use a little common sense and put 2 and 2 together instead of constantly being as obtuse as possible and fixating on one word. It's not my fault that the one word has come back to bite you in the buttocks. You are free to retract it at any time.

Do you really think MS would've sold millions of Xbox 360s during the Christmas season if they'd announced a new version was coming in a few months?That's not the issue. The issue is whether they actually lied and said a new hardware revision was never, ever, ever coming. Even the most casually informed consumer would have an inkling that the 360 would be getting a facelift at some point.

They CHOSE not to announce the new 360 until the last possible moment. They had SOME reason for doing that.Sure. It makes good business sense not to tip your hand to your competitors. That's a whole 'nother ballgame from the more serious charge of lying -- a charge you have failed to prove yet again (see below).

I don't know where you were when the hundreds of threads discussing these rumors (and the denials) on this forum came up, but your web search skills truly suck.That's a real hoot, coming from a guy who can't even Google his way to the alleged statements from Redmond that there were "no plans" for HDMI.

One example among hundreds (maybe thousands) is this Gamespot interview (http://www.gamespot.com/news/6163965.html) from a few months ago:You must be joking. That statement doesn't even come near to being an outright falsehood. Besides, even you say it's from a few months ago. What, MS isn't entitled to change its mind? To listen to the customers clamoring for a larger capacity drive, and relent? Strike one.

Really? Huh. Well, either they have the ability to crap HDDs on demand up there in Redmond, or he lied right there,I really don't think you know what a "lie" truly is. As any informed person knows, a company will have all sorts of products in R&D even if they're unsure whether they intend to release them in the future. Quite likely, they wanted to see how the PS3 and Wii launches went before committing to a new SDK. Strike two.

Well, that last half sentence is actually 100% true. They weren't thinking about announcing anything at that time. I'd say they were doing a little more than playing around with stuff in order to have a product shipping a mere two months later though. There had to have been hundreds of meetings for something like this.It's a far, far cry from a lie, and you know it. Strike three.

So either the two new things in the new 360 just poofed into existence last week, or MS was trotting out spokesmen to deny the truth about what they were doing all along. I think we both know which of those is more likely to be correct, so we're done.Expecting a company to tip its hand before it's ready to make its products public is both stupid and disingenuous. Whatever you might think of the announcement, MS has always carefully worded their statements to leave the door open for their plans in these areas. There are certainly plenty of other avenues you can criticize MS, but this ain't one of them.

Yep, I feel screwed. Like I was just bent over a chair. Just like everybody else stating that game systems rarey ever come out with something new that the first batches of that console can't have or upgrade to. Especially less than 2 freakin' years into that consoles life cycle!!! I have had my 360 pretty much since launch(one month later) and I would have loved a black version, definately wanted hdmi to connect to my projector. Honestly though, these aren't really the main reasons I'm so upset about the "elite". It's the way Microsoft has handled the situation that has my feathers ruffled. After all the blasting they did towards Sony's PS3 and all the denying of needig hdmi or bringing out a new system they go and do it. They have denied, denied, denied, for like a year and then are like "oh yeah, elite is coming". I loved the original xbox but have began to get frustrated with problems on the 360 such as: freezes, lock ups, the unbelievably loud disc drive, not to mention some of the service I have gotten or rather NOT gotten from MS. I also own a playstation 3 primarily for blu ray movies and I can tell you right now that the overall better hardware and value is the PS3. Games wise, that is a different story as the 360 has better games and better online service right now. This whole deal just pisses me off. If it truely were an "elite" version it would atleast have built in wifi and probaby should have a built in HDDVD player as well. Hell, I spent around $550 after taxes just on my 360 premium and the wireless router. Most people don't take this stuff into consideration when figureing in the PS3 price. It has built in wifi and a built in Blu ray player, also has free online service(although not as good as Microsofts live).

I have very strong opinions on what I think a console should and should not be and I feel that a console should launch with everything it needs to see-out its lifecycle. If new functionality is added, then it needs to be for everyone, not just one tier of the customer base.

What really concerns me is HDCP entering into the content chain.
IPTV and DVR functionality is all well and good, but when we see the install-base of HDMI equiped units exceeding those without it, will we start to see the clamps come down with more of the marketplace content? (I'm not talking about the ICT).
What if the console is compromised? There has already been one successful hack (which was quickly patched), The 360's protection could crumble any day, then what?

Currently the system is a secure one and I'm sure content providers are confident about it, but that could literally change overnight. Will we see wholesale use of HDCP if such a thing happens? I don't want to find I'm out in the cold because I chose to invest early.

This isn't just 'HDMI vs component', it has real ramifications for us early adoptors and I'm finding very little information coming from MS to ease my fears. Perhaps its too bitter a pill to swallow so soon after what is not a universally applauded announcement?

Just like everybody else stating that game systems rarey ever come out with something new that the first batches of that console can't have or upgrade to. Especially less than 2 freakin' years into that consoles life cycle!!!

Its actually only been a year and a half since the original 360 console. So dont feel too bad :o

I'm not upset at all and I have only had my 360 a couple months. As long as every game that continues to come out will play on my "old" system, who cares.

from saying that the HDMI format used in the Elite is the 1.2 version?

Quote from nbuubu:

"If the Elite somehow did more than adding a crippled HDMI 1.2 port and a 120gb HDD I'd be more upset."

If that is truely the case then the Elite is not so Elite after all. The PS3's HDMI is the 1.3 version!

hyghwayman

pfff I got one this past Christmas and am not pissed. The later buyers if using logic should be more pissed if there was to be any pissing going on. Console gamers need a lot of cuddling. Myself I like options and upgrades "if" price/performance is there. Unfortunately with the Elite it's not there much, which makes me even more less pissed.

short end of the stick because of no hdmi port? that's quite a stretch, don't you think? the system is still capable of outputting a 1080p signal, regardless of hdmi, and other than this, the hardware is the same. you can still play gears of war and rainbow six, so how is that the short end of the stick?

The system may put out 1080p through component and vga, so when I bought a tv I made sure I got a 1080p tv with component and vga. Here is the problem for those of us who bought the hd-dvd player can not get full lossless audio with out an hdmi cable. The optical cable's bandwidth gets maxed out. So I put 600 dollars into their system thinking that if they ever release hdmi they can just add it to this because of the interview. Now I find I need to buy another system. I was lied to and I am not getting my moneys worth. That is the short end of the stick.

The ps3 is a much better deal for $600 blue-ray, hdmi, and built in wifi. Xbox 360 hd-dvd, hdmi, wifi adapter-> $780.

from saying that the HDMI format used in the Elite is the 1.2 version?

Quote from nbuubu:

"If the Elite somehow did more than adding a crippled HDMI 1.2 port and a 120gb HDD I'd be more upset."

If that is truely the case then the Elite is not so Elite after all. The PS3's HDMI is the 1.3 version!

hyghwayman

there is no reason to hdmi 1.3; the player does all of the audio decoding and it can pass through 1080p. Go read the "why you don't need hdmi 1.3 thread in the receiver forum."

there is no reason to hdmi 1.3; the player does all of the audio decoding and it can pass through 1080p. Go read the "why you don't need hdmi 1.3 thread in the receiver forum."


Where did he/she get the info on what version of HDMI was in the Elite!

I just made the remake that if it was true that they (MS) put the 1.2 version in the new Elite that it wasn't so Elite after all.

hyghwayman

Once the ELITE comes down to about 429, I'll dive. But c'mon, most people with a PS3 right now are falling into the Monster Cable FUD and buy 100-200 dollar HDMI cables. With the Xbox 260 ELITE it's already included. Unless BBB convince the customer that they need super-heat resistant from atomic bomb protection only available from monster :D

most people with a PS3 right now are falling into the Monster Cable FUD and buy 100-200 dollar HDMI cables

Why would anyone be dumber than you are?
I paid $9 for my HDMI cable. I don't know anyone who paid more than $11.

Is anybody else tired of the usual Darknight "Im a developer myself" statements. Dude thats great and all that you are a developer, but guess what we all are?

Customers..

Whose opinion do you think matters the most. Because guess what.. if we dont like it then we dont want it. So if we wont buy it guys like you dont get paid.

I think its a time and place where a developers opinion can definitely add insight.. but in a thread asking specifically "Do Other early adopters feel they got the shaft because of HDMI Xbox 360? " I think the customers opinion is whats most important. And theres no way you can argue giving the customer MORE features.. MORE options.. and MORE choices for how advanced they want their gaming experience to be.. does NOT have a direct impact on sales.

If people want a minimum 360 experience.. bring $299 plus tax. If people want a major 360 experience bring $399 plus tax.. if people want the most maximum 360 experience possible.. bring $479 plus tax. They are simply trying to cater to as many peoples experience as possible. And they still do so coming underneath the minium price for a HD experience offered by the competitor. You can argue in the face until you are Blu (no pun intended) about the BluRay playback features of the PS3. But the fact simply remains that Bluray is a concept alot of people.. myself for example.. have ZERO interest in at this current point and time. Especially when they just want to play GAMES.

As for rather Developers look at sales or not.. I think even a person with the smallest ounce of common knowledge can figure out that if you are planning on selling a product.. you definitely need a market to sell it to.

More options.. More possible customers. Is there something you missed about that simple point?

I guess Edios developers didnt. As they have publicly stated it.

And by the way to address your last post in this thread..

The 360 will never be confused for the PS3 for one reason.. and thats that any of us regular people aka "customers" can walk into a given store and purchase a fully functioning 360 capable of playing 99% of 360 DVD based games for $299.

Trust me.. "customers" will never confuse that with the PS3.



signed...

Daekwan
360 Customer

You missed one little detail: He is as much as customer as you are.

The first lie:


On DVI and HDMI Output

"Unless you have a really big TV and a really good eye, you're unlikely to notice the difference" between HDMI and component HD video"

--Al Penello, Microsoft hardware manager, to GamePro

Penello confirmed that the Xbox 360 HD DVD Player will stick with the 360's standard analog video outputs: component (red, green, and blue plugs) and VGA. Penello addressed concerns over the Xbox 360's analog-only video output, and confirmed that there are "currently" no plans for the Xbox 360 to add HDMI or DVI support. "There's nothing about the Xbox 360 that says it can't support HDMI," Penello told us. "We just didn't design it that way." Penello even took a jab at the HDMI format itself, saying that "HDMI isn't finished...even one of the PS3 SKUs doesn't have it."

On the other hand, Penello was careful not to rule anything out: "one day we might add it in," he offered, referring to HDMI support. But Penello lashed out at criticisms that the Xbox 360's component and VGA outputs are inferior, saying that "the people who are the most impassioned are the ones who know the least about it." When it comes to the different between component and HDMI video, Penello said, "the reality is, for any normal HD owner, the difference [between the formats] is nonexistent."


http://www.gamepro.com/news.cfm?article_id=79458

The second lie:


GS: What can you tell us about the HDMI-enabled Xbox 360 rumors that have been going around?

CS: We're always working on prototypes and new technologies and just playing with stuff in Redmond to see what's interesting. I think at the moment we have the widest available connections on the system. If you want to get great HD, I think we've got a good solution for that. In the future it's interesting to see where standards evolve to. I think one of the problems that the whole industry, us and entertainment, are facing at the moment is we're in this world where standards are evolving very quickly.

We have different high-definition standards for discs that we know are competing at the moment. We think HD-DVD is going to be the right way to go, but really it's all about choice in that system so that's why we're offering these sort of services with downloads--skip that whole "format wars" problem. With other standards, audiovideo standards, they're evolving very quickly as well. We're obviously keeping an eye on that and saying, "What are the future standards and how do we give consumers the right choice for that?"

At the moment, everything you might have seen is just looking at our experimentation back in Redmond, not really a product that we're thinking about announcing.


http://www.gamespot.com/news/6163965.html

The implied message:

Buy in confidence, dear consumers, we are not going to release a new model soon.

BIG NEWS: No one is innocent in this business.

Eric we are all entitled to our own personal opinions and have the DIRECT ability to effect a companies decisions by choosing rather to financially support them or not when we purchase their products.

If you feel like MS is such a liar.. and so untrustable.. why continue interest in their products. Think of all the time it would save you from researching and posting links

It took about a minute to type two words into a form, click search, and pick a result at random. I can spare that kind of time.

trying to prove how dishonest and misleading they have been.

I guess I dont understand some people's complaints.

I guess I don't understand why you think discussing facts or speculating about why something happened the way it did is complaining. That's typical stuff that happens all the time on this forum. In any post in this thread, have I said I wasn't happy with my 360 in any way, or that I wish I had bought something else, or that I wish my 360 could do something it doesn't do? I don't think I have. I do sympathize with anybody who bought a 360 just before the announcement and feels deceived. I don't think it's complaining to point out they have a legitimate beef.

So is it easier to just label anybody who disagrees with you a whiner and complainer than it is to actually discuss something? That's pretty much all I see from a lot of people in this thread.

And, you know, I could take that position too. Look at the title of this thread. It's pretty clear what you'll find in here. Why did you click it if you don't want to read it? If you don't like what somebody else has to say, get over it, stop expressing interest in their posts, stop whining about it, don't waste your time reading, blah blah blah, etc.

The first lie:Wow. Another person who really doesn't have a clue what constitutes a "lie". Sure, you and I appreciate the all-digital HDMI path, but outside of these forums, quite a few people won't notice the difference between component and HDMI. It's kind of depressing, but it's a fact.

The implied message:

Buy in confidence, dear consumers, we are not going to release a new model soon.You can't put words in other person's mouth and then call them a liar. It really doesn't work that way.

So is it easier to just label anybody who disagrees with you a whiner and complainer than it is to actually discuss something? That's pretty much all I see from a lot of people in this thread.

Truer words have rarely been spoken.

Is anybody else tired of the usual Darknight "Im a developer myself" statements. Dude thats great and all that you are a developer, but guess what we all are?

Customers..

Wow, did you even read what the person said to whom I was replying to? He brought up and tried to tell me what developers do. I then kindly pointed out I was a game developer to put perspective on that I do know what a developer does and how that is changing this generation. It's not like I just threw it out there for no reason or out of the blue.


Whose opinion do you think matters the most. Because guess what.. if we dont like it then we dont want it. So if we wont buy it guys like you dont get paid.


Actually technically, as a developer we've already been paid by the publisher since we are paid as we are developing it and meeting each milestone. But if you want to talk about the voice of the consumer, then that is what I was doing here. Voicing my irritation that Microsoft went against the grain and did something uncommon in the video game industry.


I think its a time and place where a developers opinion can definitely add insight.. but in a thread asking specifically "Do Other early adopters feel they got the shaft because of HDMI Xbox 360? " I think the customers opinion is whats most important. And theres no way you can argue giving the customer MORE features.. MORE options.. and MORE choices for how advanced they want their gaming experience to be.. does NOT have a direct impact on sales.


Wow, there are times I read these threads where it's clear that people don't read things in the context they were done in. As explained above, he brought up the topic of what developers do. I started this thread purely from a consumer. Go read my previous posts. I explained that I was not mad or angered but I was slightly irritated because the move that Microsoft did usually just does not happen to game consoles. I was talking as a gamer and a consumer. I never said it would not have an impact on sales, be it a positive or negative impact. I said it would be negligable at best. There's a huge difference saying it won't impact at all or the impact would be minor. I think it has more of a chance hurting the 360 than it does to help it too.


If people want a minimum 360 experience.. bring $299 plus tax. If people want a major 360 experience bring $399 plus tax.. if people want the most maximum 360 experience possible.. bring $479 plus tax. They are simply trying to cater to as many peoples experience as possible. And they still do so coming underneath the minium price for a HD experience offered by the competitor. You can argue in the face until you are Blu (no pun intended) about the BluRay playback features of the PS3. But the fact simply remains that Bluray is a concept alot of people.. myself for example.. have ZERO interest in at this current point and time. Especially when they just want to play GAMES.


Haven't paid much attention to the market have you. A significant majority of the consoles sold out there are Premium units. That element of choice to offer a console that sells in such a minority compared to the Premium version of the same system has actually hurt you as a consumer. Since most systems out there are Premium, had they never sold the core, we could have had a hard drive as a standard which would have benefited you the consumer because developers would be able to do more with the system with that extra benefit. So you like pointing out the consumer view and here it is how you pushing choice actually hurt you and every other consumer. You've really bought the company line hook line and sinker haven't you the way you pushed that. You almost sound like PR or that you work for MS. The core system is a joke thanks to the extremely highly overpriced peripherals from MS.

As for rather Developers look at sales or not.. I think even a person with the smallest ounce of common knowledge can figure out that if you are planning on selling a product.. you definitely need a market to sell it to.

More options.. More possible customers. Is there something you missed about that simple point?

The original poster that I was applying to was telling me that the Elite version was going to benefit me as a consumer by drawing in more people and in turn get more exclusive games. I told him otherwise about the reality of the situation. That ship has sailed.


I guess Edios developers didnt. As they have publicly stated it.

Not sure what you're referring to here.


And by the way to address your last post in this thread..

The 360 will never be confused for the PS3 for one reason.. and thats that any of us regular people aka "customers" can walk into a given store and purchase a fully functioning 360 capable of playing 99% of 360 DVD based games for $299.

Trust me.. "customers" will never confuse that with the PS3.


Hahaha. You sure are naive about the understanding of the average consumer. In my 15 years experience in this industry, if there's one thing that I learned, it's the more options there are, the more things get confusing. Heck watching the discussions on these gaming forums is proof of how confusing or uninformed many people are when it comes to video games as you see a lot of misinformation being thrown around. I've seen customers walk into a store looking for a PlayStation asking if they have that Nintendo system because to them Nintendo just descibed video games. Heck the simple fact that people here try to compare the Xbox 360 Premium with the PS3 Premium is proof that they don't understand the differences. Heck even the fact that people believe HDMI cables cost at least $50 shows how much you can rely on the consumer for being informed.

Even the Xbox 360 Core shows how you can take advantage of the uninformed consumer because almost anyone who is informed would realize you should not buy the core given the feature set of both. There's a reason it was nicknamed the tard pack on the Internet whle the $500 PS3 was not. Now I'm not saying that the Core pack doesn't make sense to someone who completely understands what they are getting and has no need for the Premium as I'm sure that consumer exists out there, but come on. The true minimum entry price of the X360 is $340 and that's for the person who just wants to play in standard definition.

Getting back to the confusion with the PS3 and the X360, you're telling me nobody is going to look at the Elite 360 at $480 and compare what they get for an extra $20 more on the PS3 at $500? You're crazy if you think people will always compare $299 to the $599 version of the PS3. Instead of MS claiming we're at least $100 cheaper and there being a significant price difference no matter what point you enter in, they have now narrowed that gap with the Elite version and comparisons will be made. If people are buying the Core system, then why is it so hard to believe that people won't go in and compare the $480 Elite with the $500 PS3 and consider the value you're getting? Since these comparisons will be done, you have partially thrown out the stigma that you're $100 cheaper.

Please reread what I said because you've clearly missed some of what has been said. I'm clearly talking about the perception and a lot of consumers going forward will likely not know all the history or difference between the systems and will go in to learn what is different. At that point in time there will be a $480 X360 to compare it to.


signed...

Daekwan
360 Customer

signed...

Darknight
Gamer

I guess I don't understand why you think discussing facts or speculating about why something happened the way it did is complaining.If you were actually discussing facts, that would be one thing. What you're doing is making baseless assumptions and slinging accusations. Of course you got ripped.

While I will defend MS' integrity in terms of their planning, I still think the Elite is a really stupid and pointless idea. Better to slash the prices of the Core or Premium, and start targeting the Wii demographic, than try to play on the same turf as the PS3.

You got what you paid for so shut up! Gosh grow up. Do you ever feel that way when you buy a new car and then the next years model comes out only a few months later. Do you go and whine then? Man just game and game some more and be quite!

Sure. It makes good business sense not to tip your hand to your competitors.

Not to mention all those customers you need in order to hit holiday sales targets.

Let's not pretend that a port you can find on $50 DVD players and a larger HDD were high-tech top-secret stuff that they had to hide from competitors, or that their competitors were capable of reacting in any way to anything they did when their own products had just hit the shelves. We all (even you) know who they were trying not to tip their hand to, and we all know the reason for it, no matter how deeply you stick your head into the sand.

There are certainly plenty of other avenues you can criticize MS, but this ain't one of them.

Actually, it is. Matter of fact, anything I feel like criticizing them for is by default something I CAN criticize them for. That's pretty much the way this forum works.

I just feel that when my launch version goes I know I will be getting the newer one to replace it with... :)

You got what you paid for so shut up! Gosh grow up. Do you ever feel that way when you buy a new car and then the next years model comes out only a few months later. Do you go and whine then? Man just game and game some more and be quite!

NES, Famicom, Famicom Disk System, Famicom Twin, SNES, Super Famicom, Nintendo 64, Nintendo 64DD, GameCube, Turbo Grafx 16, Turbo Duo, PC Engine, PC Engine CD-ROM, SuperGrafx, Sega Master System, Genesis, Sega CD, 32X, Saturn, Dreamcast, Neo Geo, Jaguar, Jaguar CD, 3DO, PlayStation, Xbox, Playdia, Pippin, FM Towns.....

These are just some of the systems I own and please point out to me where among those systems future revisions had additional features that were not available to the older model. Comparing it to a car where everyone knows it happens yearly is apples and oranges when the systems listed above don't follow such a trend.

Not to mention all those customers you need in order to hit holiday sales targets.All those holiday shoppers who got roped into a 360 are now enjoying a great gaming system. I imagine a huge percentage of them will never miss having an HDMI port.

Let's not pretend that a port you can find on $50 DVD players and a larger HDD were high-tech top-secret stuff that they had to hide from competitors,The tech is not top secret, but the short- and long-term marketing plans of any big company will be, especially in the gaming industry. Only someone who is especially dense would try to postulate that a competitive company needs to make all its plans available to the public at all times. Business just doesn't work that way.

We all (even you) know who they were trying not to tip their hand to, and we all know the reason for it, no matter how deeply you stick your head into the sand.I never once said that MS held off on any announcements for any reason other than to make sure they sold existing 360 units. I'm sure that was their goal, and if I were in their position, I would have done the same thing. The only question is whether they were dishonest about it. They were certainly vague, but they did not lie as you have repeatedly (and erroneously) claimed.

EDIT: And to clarify... yes, you're right a pre-holiday announcement would have cost MS some sales. 200-300K would be my guess. But I strongly disagree with your "guarantee" that it would have cost MS "millions" of sales.

Actually, it is. Matter of fact, anything I feel like criticizing them for is by default something I CAN criticize them for. That's pretty much the way this forum works.Well, if you don't care about your credibility, then go ahead and criticize. The other forumers will be here with their rebuttals, per usual.

While I will defend MS' integrity in terms of their planning, I still think the Elite is a really stupid and pointless idea. Better to slash the prices of the Core or Premium, and start targeting the Wii demographic, than try to play on the same turf as the PS3.

I completely agree this is what MS should have done. In fact what they should have done is released the Elite at the pricepoint of the current Premium, move the Premium to the Core price point and then just dropped the core. That would have been the best way for MS to introduce it.

You got what you paid for so shut up! Gosh grow up. Do you ever feel that way when you buy a new car and then the next years model comes out only a few months later. Do you go and whine then? Man just game and game some more and be quite!

Heil, mein Führer!

I completely agree this is what MS should have done. In fact what they should have done is released the Elite at the pricepoint of the current Premium, move the Premium to the Core price point and then just dropped the core. That would have been the best way for MS to introduce it.

That was indeed the best move and a move that would have been consistent with their previous claims.

I think releasing an updated console is better than the alternative.....not releasing an updated console.

For gods sake, the only way all this crying and moaning would be justified is if the newer games would require an xbox elite. Every 360 game released will work on a launch xbox 360 all the way up until the next xbox is released.

I completely agree this is what MS should have done. In fact what they should have done is released the Elite at the pricepoint of the current Premium, move the Premium to the Core price point and then just dropped the core. That would have been the best way for MS to introduce it.

I agree also. I have a 360 and a PS3 which I bought for the Blu-ray. The PS3 is by far the better machine or should I say value. If you are a consumer and you are buying today then the PS3 is the way to go. There are enough games today for the PS3 to be worth it and by fall there will be a crapload. I do think the 360 is a great machine but not being able to add hd-dvd to it is the difference maker.

Not pissed, I knew what I was buying. I do wish MS had avoided releasing a CORE version without HDD. I do wish every unit had HD-DVD and HDMI built in from day 1, but like I said "I knew what I was buying".

I also wish MS let us use non-MS brand HDD's with our system. I do wish they'd offer HDMI for lossless sound for us current owners. Of course I'm sure many of my wishes wouldn't be as good for them financially as peripherals make them a lot of money.

edit: As for the Elite, its not even what I wanted in the console. HDMI without lossless sound, just half assed just like their HD-DVD add-on. I'll pass. The value just isn't very good. Add in a HD-DVD drive and HDMI, leave it at 20GB and price it at $499 or less would be a better value.

I don't need 120GB's for gaming and I don't plan on using my 360 as a Tivo styled service. These consoles are fragile enough as it is.

The Reason that they don't let you add another hdd, is because they offer Copyrighted Material. HD Movies and TV shows, If you were able to save those to your hdd someone would take them and rip them. If that happened MS's movie studios partners would not be happy. causeing an end to the video marketplace.

The HDD also cost more that any regular HDD is because its a Laptop 2.5 inch HDD which if you try to buy instore would cost upwards of $100 Not including an OS and the extra casing and the fact that the HDD has to have a high RPM which makes it cost more.

The Reason that they don't let you add another hdd, is because they offer Copyrighted Material. HD Movies and TV shows, If you were able to save those to your hdd someone would take them and rip them. If that happened MS's movie studios partners would not be happy. causeing an end to the video marketplace.

The HDD also cost more that any regular HDD is because its a Laptop 2.5 inch HDD which if you try to buy instore would cost upwards of $100 Not including an OS and the extra casing and the fact that the HDD has to have a high RPM which makes it cost more.

Because of copyrighted material? So how does the iPod Video get away with it? How about the fact that I can currently extract the video regardless of the proprietary case? If you're talking about the illusion of security then you may have a point otherwise it's already easily available. Plus isn't that what the digital rights management is about?

Also you need to go look at the current prices of 2.5" HDDs because there's no way the plastic case takes up half the cost because you can get high capacity 2.5" HDDs for cheap now.

Let's face it, accessories is something that MS is using to make up for the losses they are taking on the hardware. They are making huge profit margins that are way higher than normal and us consumers are paying for it since we have no choice other than to not buy it.

signed...

Darknight
Gamer

Game on! ;)

Because of copyrighted material? So how does the iPod Video get away with it? How about the fact that I can currently extract the video regardless of the proprietary case? If you're talking about the illusion of security then you may have a point otherwise it's already easily available. Plus isn't that what the digital rights management is about?

Also you need to go look at the current prices of 2.5" HDDs because there's no way the plastic case takes up half the cost because you can get high capacity 2.5" HDDs for cheap now.

Let's face it, accessories is something that MS is using to make up for the losses they are taking on the hardware. They are making huge profit margins that are way higher than normal and us consumers are paying for it since we have no choice other than to not buy it.


I don't think people realize that everything you download via Xbox Live Marketplace is fully DRMed.
I recently talked to another fellow gamer who thought DRM was a Sony exclusive. ;)

I've enjoyed my 360 since launch... do I feel shafted? Not even close...

Game on guys...

Kyser