Stop the presses!!! Amazing new video. See it here. Hear it here. Step right up to the back of the covered wagon and let us tell you all about it. Be amazed!

http://www.psaudio.com/video/newsletter_video.html

http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2002/20021125h.gif

Ooooooo... it has "Nano Crystaline Structures"...


...Shazbot!

Tom N.

Nanu nanu

http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2002/20021125h.gif


ROFL!!!

:D

So they have a stronger inductor than what else is on the market right now. Couldn't they have said that in about 30 seconds?

Also, how do they reconcile "solid copper bus bar" with "isolated zones" ?

This is what I'm puzzled about. Weren't the previous PS Audio conditioners like the P300, 600, 1000 the ultimate because it conditions, protects, AND regenerates AC? They weigh a ton and supposedly, the best? Now, they offer these light weights and THEY are the best?

Stop the presses!!! Amazing new video. See it here. Hear it here. Step right up to the back of the covered wagon and let us tell you all about it. Be amazed!

http://www.psaudio.com/video/newsletter_video.html

Yeah, let us be amazed by "You need to download a plugin" :D Or was it visa versa :D

Just goes to show today's consumer is smarter than PSAudio's marketing department.

Just goes to show today's consumer is smarter than PSAudio's marketing department.

Interesting... I own two of the P300's and they are fantastic. A couple of you mention this. Yet you will diss their new product knowing little or nothing about it?

If they do what the P300's do without the heat and the huge power draw, sign me up.

I might as well ask to be flamed.

Interesting... I own two of the P300's and they are fantastic. A couple of you mention this. Yet you will diss their new product knowing little or nothing about it?

If they do what the P300's do without the heat and the huge power draw, sign me up.

I might as well ask to be flamed.

No need to get flamed. It is just that PSAudio like many companies make outrageous claims with nothing to back them up. If you like it thats fine, it is just that people who dont know any better need to be aware of what they are really buying.


As far as what we know about the product, well we only know what they put in the ads for it, and frankly that is pretty vague and weak stuff.Also if tese products come from the same place as the new PPP they have then more problems will come out. They have at last count from me 18 different people with issues in the PPP that the "engineers" (term used very loosely) at PSA cant seem to figure out.

AVS Forum members' head will explode with confusion when they realize that the speakers should are ID. Ooh, what to think, what to think! ID in bed with snake oil PS Audio folks!

Of course, the only people I've ever dealt with that had nuked equipment are the ones rolling HD/Lowe's death strips, not one from Panamax, Monster, RG, etc.

None.

I had a client with a PS300 as well (I told 'em I thought it was overhyped and overpriced). When I returned a week later, he reported it was fantastic and was very pleased he went ahead a bought it. Cleaned the thin veil from his sound, picture was better. I told him great! I'm glad you like it. I'll plug your stuff into then.

Just to stir the pot...

Any response from the haters to this article? (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_6_4/ps-audio-power-plant-300.html)

A/V systems are, at their core, machines that manipulate electricity to produce sound and images. So doesn't the garbage in garbage out principle still apply?

I'm undecided myself, I've never had my hands on one of these things to test it out. If there's a noticeable difference then anybody should be able to readily identify it. Although even if there is a difference, is it worth the money? Hmmmmmmmm.

Just to stir the pot...

Any response from the haters to this article? (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_6_4/ps-audio-power-plant-300.html)

A/V systems are, at their core, machines that manipulate electricity to produce sound and images. So doesn't the garbage in garbage out principle still apply?

I'm undecided myself, I've never had my hands on one of these things to test it out. If there's a noticeable difference then anybody should be able to readily identify it. Although even if there is a difference, is it worth the money? Hmmmmmmmm.
As I said, I own two of the P300's and I love them, but I run them in a pretty high end music only audio system. In that article the author says "Most of my equipment is built to high-performance standards, and the improvements I saw and heard were dramatic. I can only imagine what the effect will be on more mass market products."

I would argue that point. I believe that the improvements I hear with these units are less evident on more mass market equipment. While it doesn't limit current like a lot of lesser "surge protectors", the improvements are in the subtleties. The less revealing the equipment, the less improvement you will see. In addition, it just doesn't make sense to spend more on your power conditioning than you did on your receiver.

Just to stir the pot...

Any response from the haters to this article? (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_6_4/ps-audio-power-plant-300.html)

A/V systems are, at their core, machines that manipulate electricity to produce sound and images. So doesn't the garbage in garbage out principle still apply?

I'm undecided myself, I've never had my hands on one of these things to test it out. If there's a noticeable difference then anybody should be able to readily identify it. Although even if there is a difference, is it worth the money? Hmmmmmmmm.

Look about halfway down and you will see the PSA problem. The author quotes PSA as not using EE terms in the correct way but making up terms for the product they sell. That should be a red flag to anyone.

As I said, I own two of the P300's and I love them, but I run them in a pretty high end music only audio system. In that article the author says "Most of my equipment is built to high-performance standards, and the improvements I saw and heard were dramatic. I can only imagine what the effect will be on more mass market products."

I would argue that point. I believe that the improvements I hear with these units are less evident on more mass market equipment. While it doesn't limit current like a lot of lesser "surge protectors", the improvements are in the subtleties. The less revealing the equipment, the less improvement you will see. In addition, it just doesn't make sense to spend more on your power conditioning than you did on your receiver.


And there is a problem as well Harry. PSA does not market this product to only "hi Enders" they market to all people and say it will improve all systems. This is a problem alot of snake oilers have when you say the product doesnt work as advertised they tell you it is because your system is not expensive enough.Again its not magic its the laws of physics and we have things to test for valid claims.

They have been busted on the Noise Harvester by me and also some folks on the James Randi site as well. And the refute from PSA was we didnt have the right testing gear. When we said ok what do we need. PSA replied "oh well its too complicated."

Also if a company has a large breakthrough in gear or physics we expect to see them in a peer review like AES.

And there is a problem as well Harry. PSA does not market this product to only "hi Enders" they market to all people and say it will improve all systems. This is a problem alot of snake oilers have when you say the product doesnt work as advertised they tell you it is because your system is not expensive enough.Again its not magic its the laws of physics and we have things to test for valid claims.

They have been busted on the Noise Harvester by me and also some folks on the James Randi site as well. And the refute from PSA was we didnt have the right testing gear. When we said ok what do we need. PSA replied "oh well its too complicated."

Also if a company has a large breakthrough in gear or physics we expect to see them in a peer review like AES.
Like I said, flame away. You can spout all the scientific jargon and point out all the errors you want. I listen with my ears and the P300's make a significant improvement in my system.

The war against "snake oil" (your words... over and over sheesh) that you are raging on these forums is boring and a real disservice to people here. It goes against all open discussion of ideas.

There are sure a lot of people out there that think that cabling, power conditioning and other tweaks of a lesser or more dubious nature make improvements in their systems. But I'm sure you are the one who is right.

Me, I'll go listen to some music now.

Like I said, flame away. You can spout all the scientific jargon and point out all the errors you want. I listen with my ears and the P300's make a significant improvement in my system.

The war against "snake oil" (your words... over and over sheesh) that you are raging on these forums is boring and a real disservice to people here. It goes against all open discussion of ideas.

There are sure a lot of people out there that think that cabling, power conditioning and other tweaks of a lesser or more dubious nature make improvements in their systems. But I'm sure you are the one who is right.

Me, I'll go listen to some music now.

Harry nothing personal or flamed at you. Again if it works for you fine and if you don't want to know why or do any sort of testing thats fine. It is not a disservice to anyone to point to the science behind something which is what audio and electronics is. I would be glad to be shown to be wrong, but again these folks present lots of slick ad but no proof and when asked for it the shy away.

I listen with my ears as well, I do it for a living. Yet when a company says that something is going to make it better then even though I may hear it I want to know I am not fooling myself I want to see the results and why. Its that simple. And yes there are lots of people who THINK things make a difference but not many have ever done the testing to find out why, they just have more money than sense.

We would do a disservice here on the AV SCIENCE forum if we just bought into everything hook line and sinker. If thats the kind of forum you like then the Audio Asylum is that place because they do not allow any talk of testing there.

A/V systems are, at their core, machines that manipulate electricity to produce sound and images. So doesn't the garbage in garbage out principle still apply?

No, not at all. You're not listening to, or watching, the AC input. 120VAC is pretty useless as it is. This gets converted to DC, before anything interesting happens to it.
Converting AC to DC is like the ultimate in filtration, all of the AC "noise" is removed. This is an easy process, and is well understood. Unfortunately, from what I've read around here, there seems to be a lot of "high end" equipment, with very poorly designed power supplies.

Harry nothing personal or flamed at you. Again if it works for you fine and if you don't want to know why or do any sort of testing thats fine. It is not a disservice to anyone to point to the science behind something which is what audio and electronics is. I would be glad to be shown to be wrong, but again these folks present lots of slick ad but no proof and when asked for it the shy away.

I listen with my ears as well, I do it for a living. Yet when a company says that something is going to make it better then even though I may hear it I want to know I am not fooling myself I want to see the results and why. Its that simple. And yes there are lots of people who THINK things make a difference but not many have ever done the testing to find out why, they just have more money than sense.

We would do a disservice here on the AV SCIENCE forum if we just bought into everything hook line and sinker. If thats the kind of forum you like then the Audio Asylum is that place because they do not allow any talk of testing there.
The proof is in my ears. You can pull my P300's in and out of my system and I'll call it every time. I've done it, I can do it again. And I can describe what I hear. Let's reverse this and why don't you explain if there is no difference, why I can do this accurately most of the time.

For someone that talks about science, a quick read thorugh your past posts reveals a lot of childish name calling and not much discussion that shows you have any clue what you are talking about. You are not to be taken seriously.

The proof is in my ears. You can pull my P300's in and out of my system and I'll call it every time. I've done it, I can do it again. And I can describe what I hear. Let's reverse this and why don't you explain if there is no difference, why I can do this accurately most of the time.

For someone that talks about science, a quick read thorugh your past posts reveals a lot of childish name calling and not much discussion that shows you have any clue what you are talking about. You are not to be taken seriously.


I wont doubt that you hear something.
I would first ask harry under what conditions did you do these tests?Then we can talk about why you hear things, but without knowing how you tested we have nothing to go on. Also if you are 100% spot on then there is a huge reward for that by James Randi.

Again Harry I have not in any way shape or form called you names, I have presented facts to you and it seems you don't care for them. And if you read through my posts as you say, then you will find plenty of science and testing that I have done. You have degraded to being very angry without being provoked in the least.

You are not to be taken seriously

And you are?
Your "science" consists of nothing but..."because I can hear it"....you're so convincing!

In the same environment, if a piece of equipment benefits and another one doesn't what does that tell you about the one that benefited?

harrypt

i believe you or your hearing unlike others who have impaired hearing due to too many disco sessions when young

also it was rumoured that the person put out a prize for tests eventually used up the funds to fix up his impaired hearing

quote from salvatore :

THE PROBLEMS WITH MEASUREMENTS

All audiophiles should at least once bring an accurate sound-level pressure gauge into their listening rooms. This is especially important for those music lovers who listen mainly to acoustical music; classical, jazz, folk etc., like me.

After an evening of listening to different music and observing the meter, most audiophiles are very surprised at how low the dB readings are on the gauge; usually between 60 to 85dB. It will on occasion go lower, and only for extremely brief instances will it ever rise above 90db.

Much more important than the pure numbers are the ultimate implications of all this. What do these surprisingly low dB numbers really mean for the on-going scientific and practical attempts of measuring a component's ability to reproduce music?

They are devastating, and here is why.

Let's start with a speaker of fairly high sensitivity, which is the trend these days and also what I recommend above. Let's say the sensitivity is 90dB/1 watt. This means that at an 80dB loudness level, this speaker is receiving a total of 1/10th of 1 watt of power from the amplifier.

This is the point where most audio magazines stop measuring, but this is the exact point where they really should begin "fine measuring", because the 80dB is only the peak/accumulated loudness at that moment. All the real, fine musical details and information; the harmonics, decays, sense of space, dynamic inflections etc. are still 20 to 30dB (or more) below the 80dB peak.

What does this all mean?

The truly unique and distinguishing musical information is being reproduced with only 1/10,000 of a watt or even less power!

At a softer 60dB loudness level, which is not that unusual, the power level of even 1 Millionth of one watt becomes important!

Which audio "tech/guru" or scientist measures what is happening in an amplifier from 100th to 1,000,000th of one watt?

The Answer: Not even one.

And you are?
Your "science" consists of nothing but..."because I can hear it"....you're so convincing!
Comments like that are equally unconvincing. There are lots of things in science that cannot yet be explained. How do pidgeons always find their way home? Seems you believe that science has solved all problems and cannot progress any further.

Seems to me science is used to research what we first observe, and some of the human senses can be quite sensitive. Telling me that I can't hear hear what I hear is just as ludicrous as saying that because I can't measure it, it can't be so.

By your logic, all amplifiers with similar specifications must sound the same, but we know they don't. Digital all sounds the same but a whole lot of time is spent around here trying to decide which player to buy.

If you "men of science" really were as you say, you would spend more time trying to figure out why so many people can hear differences where you can't and figure out how to measure that, and less time making excuses for your failure to do so. It doesn't serve your science, only your ego. To tell you the truth, I'd really like to have a scientific answer for why I hear what I do.

Seems you believe that science has solved all problems and cannot progress any further.

Since it only "seems" that way, I'll correct you...you're worng.

Telling me that I can't hear hear what I hear is just as ludicrous as saying that because I can't measure it, it can't be so.


I see, you're not a man of science, and have no concept of its methods....in other words, you're woefully underqualified to speak about this.

By your logic, all amplifiers with similar specifications must sound the same,

We call this a strawman, it's used when one doesn't have a good arguement...

To tell you the truth, I'd really like to have a scientific answer for why I hear what I do.

Re-read this thread for the answer, unfortunately, it's obviously way over your head.

Good luck.

I was giving Harry some rope here and it seems he has hung himself. He has backed up into the same response we see all the time from those who wont look at a measurement. Things like the all amps sound the same line,bringing up something completely unrelated in science ie the bird thing.

Also saying he tested and got it right 100% but will not tell us how he tested when asked.

Again Harry if you tell me that a companies product suddenly gave you better bass or midrange or whatever, that can be measured. We have the tools to do that.

Now can we get back to talking about the funny little play that PSA did for the movie?

If you "men of science" really were as you say, you would spend more time trying to figure out why so many people can hear differences where you can't and figure out how to measure that, and less time making excuses for your failure to do so. It doesn't serve your science, only your ego. To tell you the truth, I'd really like to have a scientific answer for why I hear what I do.
Harry, with all due respect, in certain matters, it takes far more effort than casual sighted listening to establish the reason for audible differences.

Wow, the assumptions you "men of science" make. Assumptions that you know everything about measurements and that you know my level of experience.

What a bore to discuss with you.

Here's you ball, harry, now go home.

Wow, the assumptions you "men of science" make. Assumptions that you know everything about measurements and that you know my level of experience.

What a bore to discuss with you.

OK Harry then please by all means show us your science, and also please answer the question about how you did your tests.

What a bore to discuss with you.

What's boring, is trying to discuss technology with someone who doesn't have the foggiest idea...such as yourself.

Boring? I think it's really quite comical! It's a treat to watch the back and forth of a truly one-sided argument ...

Just to stir the pot...

Any response from the haters to this article? (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_6_4/ps-audio-power-plant-300.html)



It's too bad this post was so long ago. I'd love to rip apart the "review." I'd start with the statement "This will cause voltage and current to depart from the ideal 90-degree phase relationship." (90 degree offset would be purely reactive ...) Then I'd probably move on to the statement "our analysis using calculus shows that the power and average voltage remain the same between the different frequencies." I wonder how many years of calculus it took them to realize the average voltage of a sinusoid was zero ...

I shouldn't have gotten myself started ...

No, not at all. You're not listening to, or watching, the AC input. 120VAC is pretty useless as it is. This gets converted to DC, before anything interesting happens to it.
Converting AC to DC is like the ultimate in filtration, all of the AC "noise" is removed. This is an easy process, and is well understood. Unfortunately, from what I've read around here, there seems to be a lot of "high end" equipment, with very poorly designed power supplies.

Agreed, though the power supply design doesn't take into account the faith that some have in the item they just spent too much on.

Why is it high end equipment have such crappy power supplies and cheap consumer gear have so much better?

Why is it high end equipment have such crappy power supplies and cheap consumer gear have so much better?

Maybe the designers of "high end", don't have what it takes to build a simple linear supply....seems to be more common then not.

It's too bad this post was so long ago. I'd love to rip apart the "review." I'd start with the statement "This will cause voltage and current to depart from the ideal 90-degree phase relationship." (90 degree offset would be purely reactive ...) Then I'd probably move on to the statement "our analysis using calculus shows that the power and average voltage remain the same between the different frequencies." I wonder how many years of calculus it took them to realize the average voltage of a sinusoid was zero ...

I shouldn't have gotten myself started ...

So basically the whole article was garbage? That's too bad, I've read other stuff from Stacy Spears and thought he generally knew what he was talking about.

THEY are the best?

Note that they qualify that with "in this price class," each time they say it.

Thus, they decided that they needed to go after people with less money to spend, but still some.

I still think they could just have posted specs (-3dB point and filter steepness in dB/octave) and been done with their message in 30 seconds. In fact, because they didn't show the measurements in high resolution, we still don't have the specs, we just know that they have an inductor filter, that the two other devices they showed does not. They did not compare against something else that also has a filter.

Filtering EMI can be worthwhile, depending on the application. Turning off on over-voltage is also a good protection practice, although over-voltages of 130V are extremely rare (so as to be insignificant) around here.