If you've thought about a Mac Mini for an htpc, but then thought: 1. a Mini is too big, 2. a Mini is too expensive, 3. a Mini doesn't have an HDMI output, 4. a Mini doesn't have a great graphics chip, then this may be for you.

An AppleTV costs about half the price of a Mini and is smaller (but has no DVD drive). Now, "engineers" have discovered a way to install standard Mac OS X 10.4.8 on an AppleTV (with USB enabled!) and get, essentially, a Mac Mini-Mini for $299.

You can read about it and see a demonstration of it here:
http://www.appletvhacks.net/2007/04/01/mac-os-x-running-on-apple-tv/

The Apple TV runs a Sigma Design 8623 chip that does the decoding of H.264 and VC-1 on its hardware, but it doesn't support HD videos with high bitrate (eventually it only supports 720p with maximum bitrate of 5mbps).

Does it possible to still use the Sigma 8623 decoder under the Max OS X in order to play 1080p HD videos with high bitrate or only the CPU is doing the decoding when using the OS X 10 ?

Does it possible to still use the Sigma 8623 decoder under the Max OS X in order to play 1080p HD videos with high bitrate or only the CPU is doing the decoding when using the OS X 10 ?

Two things to keep in mind: 1. this only happened today, so it is a little early to know everything about how it works, 2. the cost of this is $299 for a "full" computer - how much can you expect for that price?

Pretty amazing....I don't have an ATV of my own, but that may change soon:

http://www.hackint0sh.org/forum/showthread.php?t=541

Mr. MarioMan

That is interesting information. One thing I recently noticed.
I installed the ATVFiles plugin and loaded up one of Apple's 8Mbps 720p movie trailers and the Apple TV played it flawlessly, which really surprised me considering they claim and according to you the chip only supports up to 5Mbps.

Can you make any sense of this.

BTW, the MPEG2 QT component played 720p and 1080i mpeg TERRIBLY.

The Apple TV runs a Sigma Design 8623 chip that does the decoding of H.264 and VC-1 on its hardware, but it doesn't support HD videos with high bitrate (eventually it only supports 720p with maximum bitrate of 5mbps).

Does it possible to still use the Sigma 8623 decoder under the Max OS X in order to play 1080p HD videos with high bitrate or only the CPU is doing the decoding when using the OS X 10 ?

If that's the case, the hardware supports decode of the following

MPEG-4 AVC (H.264) Supported hardware decode

MPEG-4.10 (H.264) BP@L3 (720x480p30, 10 Mbit/s max)

MP@L4.0 (1920x1080p30, 1280x720p60, 20 Mbit/s max)

HP@L4.0 (1920x1080p30, 1280x720p60, 25 Mbit/s max)


In addition it can be VC-1 (MP@HL and AP@L3), WMV9 (MP@HL), MPEG-2 (MP@HL), and MPEG-4.2 ASP@L5 (720p, without GMC).

Oh, and it doesn't support Macrovision.

Chris

Thats not what I meant to say. What I tried to say is that apparently the limit is because of the Apple TV OS itself (maybe they didn't bother to implement the chip good enough to their OS, because eventually this OS was build for SD videos mainly).

The chip isn't so limited as far as I know.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Also I got the bright idea to copy the H.264 QT component from my AppleTV to my MBP and saw about a 10% reduction in processor utilization over the H.264 component that comes with the MBP.

I installed the ATVFiles plugin and loaded up one of Apple's 8Mbps 720p movie trailers and the Apple TV played it flawlessly, which really surprised me considering they claim and according to you the chip only supports up to 5Mbps.

Can you make any sense of this.
I'm guessing that Apple only "guarantees" that the ATV will play up to 5 Mbps. Apple tends to be pretty conservative when it comes to quoting what their hardware can handle.

BTW, the MPEG2 QT component played 720p and 1080i mpeg TERRIBLY.
No big surprise there. EyeTV does a much better job for some reason.

I'm guessing that Apple only "guarantees" that the ATV will play up to 5 Mbps. Apple tends to be pretty conservative when it comes to quoting what their hardware can handle.The opening video on the aTV (Intro.mov) plays at 6Mbps. It's a full 16:9 720p/24 h.264 clip. I'm sure that Apple is being very conservative with its specs right now.

What Mac OS X on the aTV shows, though is how extensible of a platform Apple is building. Next up, the iPhone. And this all points to what the new Mini might include. Apple will have to work hard to differentiate the Mini from the modded aTV for home theatre use (or low cost installations). Obvious differentiations for the Mini include increased RAM, optical drive, firewire, direct Apple support, etc.

On the other hand, the aTV has some hardware advantages over the current mini with the gpu, dsp, and low-overhead OS X variant with dedicated iTunes/streaming-sync'ing support. The aTV will inherit some obvious new roles, like blade server and thin client, and become a great appliance for embedded uses. Not to mention a great starting point for an ultra-low cost computer for anyone who doesn't mind the tradeoffs. Who woulda ever thunk it? A $300 Mac. From Apple. Now That's Different.

This all raises some great questions for the rollout of Leopard and the new Mini's. Now that the low cost micro Mac has arrived, how does Apple keep it from cannibalizing sales of other products. Or don't they care anymore? Profits and stock shares are way up. Maybe Apple can afford to play loose for a while in some market segments. That's unique for them. Apple doesn't just throw a product like the aTV at the hacker/modder crowd without assessing the implications of a worst case (best case???) breach with unintended consequences. Apple must have considered the implications of exactly what we are witnessing with the aTV. Not that it is a huge thing, or will impact the market in a large or significant way, but that it signifies a shift in Apple's thinking about how tightly controlled it likes it's products to be.

I think that AwkwardTV.org raised the big salient questions today about the legalities of running Mac OS X (Intel) on the appleTV, as the Intel version of OS X isn't for sale--it only comes with new Intel Mac purchases. Is running the current Mac OS X on the aTV legal if you own a copy, and abide by the spirit of the ULA? And/or, can I buy a copy to do so? While not readily obvious, Apple will most likely maintain that it isn't legal, and they have no plans to offer Mac OS X for the aTV. But as with the x86 projects, Apple may turn a blind eye for the time being. What will happen with Leopard upgrades for Intel is a whole 'nother thing though. I'll bet that the lawyers have addressed this in the ULA for it.

This whole Apple TV release has turned into something that none of us would have predicted two weeks ago. What had led up to a very ho-hum product release that had been analyzed inside and out and criticized for its shortcomings, and placed into its obvious limited role in the home theare, has turned into something far more enticing. A shift in the known Apple Computer we once had a love-hate affair with to the unknown Apple (sans) Computer that has a lot of new products and ideas just waiting in the wings.

The biggest advantage the mini has is CPU, sure the gpu is slower, but that Core 2 Dou can decode any HD clip you throw it at, vs the ATV which can't handle 720p MPEG2. (Atleast not without VLC)

OK - Dumb Question.

Why does the QT MPEG-2 plug-in play TERRIBLY on aTV when by all accounts VLC plays MPEG-2 perfectly with surround sound?

Different Codec, more efficient code?

Ultimately, I want to be able to play MPEG2 through my aTV up to 720p with full surround sound, without having to exit the aTV UI if at all possible. That's the mod I'd really love to see - but if it completely relies on QuickTime I'm cooked. :confused: :confused:

The AppleTV does not have a Sigma chip. It's an Intel 1Ghz Low Voltage Pentium M with 256mb Ram and GeforceGo 7300 with 64mb Ram.

Someone installed OS X on his AppleTV then benchmarked it against his Mac Mini. Not surprisingly (and more than twice the price), the Mac Mini did better. But, the AppleTV manages to do fairly well in some categories. You can read the results here:

http://db.xbench.com/merge.xhtml?doc1=220620&doc2=207274

Yes a Mac Mini is more than twice the price of aTV, by one dollar. Lets think about what was used to make aTV a 'computer'; a legal copy of the OS, which isn't available at any price. I'm pretty surprised to see this much coverage of something that is semi-legal depending on where you live (decrypting/reverse engineering parts of OS X) that will be blown away with the very first OS update from Apple (guess what happens when you try to update from 10.4.8 to 10.4.9). It's a very interesting exercise but not something I'd want to trust with any important data and the wife certainly isn't going to be accepting of the open box of parts being hooked up to the projector ;-)
While aTV is a pretty nice piece of gear it isn't all that and a bag of chips as a computer.

So does the Apple TV have the EM8623 chip, or doesn't it?

Jonathan: What was the source of the information that the Apple TV has this chip? Is it Joe on the Apple TV Hacks thread?

So does the Apple TV have the EM8623 chip, or doesn't it?

I thought that post was an April Fool's joke--no one who has taken this thing apart (Anandtech, Ars technica et al) has mentioned its presence.

Seemed awful specific for an April Fool's joke, but you might be right. To be honest, it doesn't seem to make sense the box would have this chip. With the chip, it would be a monster box.

Agreed, but that same exact post, including the disjointed grammar, was posted on one of the hacking threads:

http://www.appletvhacks.net/2007/04/01/mac-os-x-running-on-apple-tv/

look for #61 by "Joe." I chalked it up to typical FUD.

Good catch. "Joe" and Mr. MarioMan posted the same thing at roughly the same time (give or take some hours due to server location differences).

So what gives, Jonathan?

Agreed, but that same exact post, including the disjointed grammar, was posted on one of the hacking threads:

http://www.appletvhacks.net/2007/04/01/mac-os-x-running-on-apple-tv/

look for #61 by "Joe." I chalked it up to typical FUD.
Considering the original "Run OS X on AppleTV" was posted on 4/1, has ANYONE in the last 4 days confirmed that it's ACTUALLY possible?

Considering the original "Run OS X on AppleTV" was posted on 4/1, has ANYONE in the last 4 days confirmed that it's ACTUALLY possible?

There's a forum where people are talking about hacking the ATV and I haven't read anything where people say something didn't work. However, I read of two recent developments that sound quite interesting. One is that they now document a way to have ATV's Front Row (which is apparently slightly different than the ones on, for example, the Mac Minis) run on your Mactel. The other is that it is now apparently possible to load hacked versions of ATV on the ATV just using an external hard drive or USB stick.

I don't know if it's ready yet, but here are a couple of pictures from hacked versions of ATV's Front Row:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/222/445798985_7ca79e6ba6.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/228/445798993_702fa877a1.jpg

So does the Apple TV have the EM8623 chip, or doesn't it?

Jonathan: What was the source of the information that the Apple TV has this chip? Is it Joe on the Apple TV Hacks thread?I looked all over and couldn't verify a Sigma chip. But an interesting find is the Realtek audio chip (http://www.realtek.com.tw/products/productsView.aspx?Langid=1&PFid=28&Level=5&Conn=4&ProdID=138) in the aTV that Anandtech discovered:

"The ALC885 is a high-performance 7.1+2 Channel High Definition Audio Codec with advanced lossless content protection technology that protects pre-recorded content while still allowing full-rate audio enjoyment from DVD audio, Blu-ray DVD, or HD DVD discs."

I guess this means any problem units would likely have to be carried in, so they can verify if someone dinked around with it. Then warranty service could begin....?

http://www.engadget.com/2007/04/05/apple-not-fighting-back-against-apple-tv-hacks/

Considering the original "Run OS X on AppleTV" was posted on 4/1, has ANYONE in the last 4 days confirmed that it's ACTUALLY possible?

My friend has actually done it and is the one who posted the video on Google Video, that I linked to in my Engadget post about it.

I would try it myself, but my USB adapter won't boot my MBP.

I've also successfully booted OS X on an AppleTV. It runs a bit slow compared to my MacBook Pro, and of course lots of things don't work with peripherals as it stands right now.

For example, I've tried playing a DVD from an external DVD player (an Xbox 360 HD DVD drive, in fact) within OS X on the unit -- DVD Player throws an error, and VLC won't play the disk, either. The DVD volume mounts, so other programs can get to it (e.g. MediaFork/ HandBrake).

I don't think sound output is working yet. Moreover, the resolution on the device is specified by the most-recent AppleTV session, so one cannot change to different screen resolutions from within System Preferences -- you have to reboot to AppleTV, change the resolution, then boot back to OS X. I've also got overscan issues when booting OS X on my 1080i component-in RPTV.

My feeling is that the OS X hack on the AppleTV provides the opportunity to modify BackRow (the AppleTV OS) to make it more functional, so the end game is to modify the AppleTV interface using the OS X "hole" to get the funtionality that you want within the AppleTV interface.

SCD