Hi M$GUY,

I see that this is your 1st Post on AVS. Look forward to seeing others because this is IMO a Great One. :D

Terry

lol - exactly what I was thinking!

I can wait because patience was a virtue taught to me as a child. :)

That's a virtue early adopters missed. (Myself included). Like computers it's always a better cost benefit to buy a notch below the top tier. Contrasting is that if you wait always for the next best thing you miss out on use of anything.

There will always be a bigger fish, I mean a shiny new something... Thanks for keeping us grounded :)

Sound & Vision Review of a Pre-Production BD-UP5000

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hd-dvd-bluray/2568/samsungs-bluhd-combo-player.html

Sound & Vision Review of a Pre-Production BD-UP5000

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hd-dvd-bluray/2568/samsungs-bluhd-combo-player.html

Review says in the stores late december. Time to save $$$, hopefully less then 799

thanks for the link rveras.

but quoting from the article: "You get onboard decoding for Dolby TrueHD lossless audio (and the ability to output a DTS-HD Master Audio bitstream for outboard decoding, also pending a firmware revision)"

would be a deal killer for me. i've decided to wait until the player can decode DTS-HD MA, so if the reviewer is correct the 5000 is a no-go for me and back to waiting again.

Hi M$GUY,

I see that this is your 1st Post on AVS. Look forward to seeing others because this is IMO a Great One. :D

Terry

I'm really proud of all the restraint I'm seeing; when I'd first read M$GUY's post I really thought the pool would quickly turn red :)

Sound & Vision Review of a Pre-Production BD-UP5000

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hd-dvd-bluray/2568/samsungs-bluhd-combo-player.html

Not exactly a stellar review. The glitches they encountered reflected some of my concerns with a do-everything player from Samsung. It's a player that almost seems too good to be true. Hopefully the final shipping product will perform as well as everyone hopes.

ggking3 -

I know what you mean. We can only hope that this article was written awhile ago, and since then Samsung has had time to iron out these "little details."

I really hope this player ships already BD profile 1.1 compliant; there is no reason it shouldn't - the new Panasonic is shipping 1.1 compliant now.

Patrick

Sound & Vision Review of a Pre-Production BD-UP5000

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hd-dvd-bluray/2568/samsungs-bluhd-combo-player.html

So it's already dropped $200 and hasn't even been released :) :) :)

I always marvel @ the manufacturers rushing a half-assed developed product to market just to screw their rivals.
Like when Philips had brought their POS DVD recorder out, and what a freaking debacle that turned into :mad:

I just received this email from ABT Electronics on my advance order.


Thanks for placing an order with Abt Electronics. Unfortunately, the BDUP5000 you ordered is still on back order status. After contacting the manufacturer, we have been told that we may be receiving our next shipment in January 2008 as an estimated time of arrival.

If you need to receive your product within a quicker timeframe or if this was a gift for the holidays it is not guaranteed to arrive to our warehouse before the holiday season. We can change your order to any other product you see on our site or have the order cancelled. Please call our customer service department at 888-228-5800 or simply reply to this email.

If you would like to wait, we would be happy to ship out your original order as soon as it arrives in our warehouse.

We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused and appreciate your understanding

Yea, ABT *finally* got the information everyone else already had.:rolleyes: If brick and mortar can get this in for the $799 pricepoint before that time, ABT is getting a cancellation notice.

thanks for the link rveras.

but quoting from the article: "You get onboard decoding for Dolby TrueHD lossless audio (and the ability to output a DTS-HD Master Audio bitstream for outboard decoding, also pending a firmware revision)"

would be a deal killer for me. i've decided to wait until the player can decode DTS-HD MA, so if the reviewer is correct the 5000 is a no-go for me and back to waiting again.

Thats always been the case, it was jsut hoped with the dealyed timing that instead of a firmware upgrade (as its always been announced as) that the DTS HD\MA decoding would just come already done.

Not exactly a stellar review. The glitches they encountered reflected some of my concerns with a do-everything player from Samsung. It's a player that almost seems too good to be true. Hopefully the final shipping product will perform as well as everyone hopes.

Well fro the comments made it looks like the review was done a little while ago. As the LG was not out yet, and we know that people now have it. Also, I wouldn't get to disappointed at this review, this is an pre production model and probably is lacing some of the things that the final product will have. These pre-prod models are always glitchy. Until we see a final production model reviewed, I am going to take any review I see with a grain of salt. People are just too easy to get negative. As it was said patience is a virture, we really need to use that here :)

Ph8te, I read that excerpt as saying that it will be able to pass DTS-HD MA via bitstream for outboard decoding after a firmware update (who knows what it will do with that track prior to that). I'm going to need the player to decode it. If that isn't what the review says, please fill me in. I might be back on the wagon after all :D

Not exactly a stellar review. The glitches they encountered reflected some of my concerns with a do-everything player from Samsung. It's a player that almost seems too good to be true. Hopefully the final shipping product will perform as well as everyone hopes.


I had planned on getting a 5000 as soon as it came out but now I think I'll wait a few weeks or possibly even a couple months after they're released just to see if the first people that get them have any issues.

Ph8te, I read that excerpt as saying that it will be able to pass DTS-HD MA via bitstream for outboard decoding after a firmware update (who knows what it will do with that track prior to that). I'm going to need the player to decode it. If that isn't what the review says, please fill me in. I might be back on the wagon after all :D

The broadcom BCM7440 in this thing supports the decoding of both formats.

Decoding of all formats was confirmed by cnet in their preview.
Link is here in this thread.

that's good news. what do the "people in the know" think about the broadcom BCM7440 SoC as opposed to any other technology that might be out there?

Forget all those Joe Bob & Sons type neighborhood friendly retailers.
Major Samsung accounts are going to get to the plate first.
In unrelated news: The Pope is catholic :D

I had planned on getting a 5000 as soon as it came out but now I think I'll wait a few weeks or possibly even a couple months after they're released just to see if the first people that get them have any issues.

Remember, its funner to test these new products than just watch from the bench....you always have at least 30days to play....I'm excited to be a tester if it comes out in Canada at the same time as the US!!

Ph8te, I read that excerpt as saying that it will be able to pass DTS-HD MA via bitstream for outboard decoding after a firmware update (who knows what it will do with that track prior to that). I'm going to need the player to decode it. If that isn't what the review says, please fill me in. I might be back on the wagon after all :D

From all I have read this player will decode all of the advanced audio codecs after the firmware update. The HdGuru preview, cnet, and from the materials posted in this thread show that will do the decoding internally. Until we get the actual production units though, no one can be 100% for sure.

I've been thinking about purchasing the BD-UP5000, but I'm a little concerned about my receiver. I own a Pioneer Elite 84TXsi, and I don't think it has True HD decoders, etc...

In very simple terms, could you explain what I will be missing out on with this receiver?

Thanks!

I've been thinking about purchasing the BD-UP5000, but I'm a little concerned about my receiver. I own a Pioneer Elite 84TXsi, and I don't think it has True HD decoders, etc...

In very simple terms, could you explain what I will be missing out on with this receiver?

Thanks!
I'm in the same boat, with a Onkyo TX-DS989 and am planning to use my multi-channel analog inputs for a year or two until I upgrade receivers.

From what I understand (and someone here can please correct me if I'm wrong) we will miss out on a single cable "all digital" solution. Rather we will have analog connections because the audio will be converted in the receiver.

My TV is second generation HD without HDMI, so I'll have a similar situation with my video input going over component. I figure I'll upgrade receivers when I upgrade televisions in 2010 (an agreement I have with my wife).

Cheers,
Spence

I'm in the same boat, with a Onkyo TX-DS989 and am planning to use my multi-channel analog inputs for a year or two until I upgrade receivers.

From what I understand (and someone here can please correct me if I'm wrong) we will miss out on a single cable "all digital" solution. Rather we will have analog connections because the audio will be converted in the receiver.

My TV is second generation HD without HDMI, so I'll have a similar situation with my video input going over component. I figure I'll upgrade receivers when I upgrade televisions in 2010 (an agreement I have with my wife).

Cheers,
Spence

Speaker and bass management might also be less flexible in the player as opposed to a receiver. Have to wait and see, but that is usually the case. I can live with it for a while and plan on using my receiver's multichannel inputs.

Doug

I've been thinking about purchasing the BD-UP5000, but I'm a little concerned about my receiver. I own a Pioneer Elite 84TXsi, and I don't think it has True HD decoders, etc...

In very simple terms, could you explain what I will be missing out on with this receiver?

Thanks!

If its HDMI (even 1.1 or 1.2) then with the 5000 you probably won't miss out on anything if the original leaked specs are true. The 5000 will internally decode TrueHD and DTSHDMA to PCM and send this to your receiver as long as your receiver can process PCM and isn't one that just passes through via HDMI. Now the only caveat is that internal decoding of DTSHDMA may not be available at release and only after a firmware update. Also the newest preview by Sound and Vision only mentioned bitstreaming of DTSHDMA (which you would need a 1.3 receiver to use)....I personally think this is incorrect in their article because all players that have implemented bitstreaming have easily implemented both TrueHD and DTSHDMA (there would be no reason to only have TrueHD bitstreaming at first and then an update to bitstream DTSHDMA). So I think the reviewer was confused and that it is actually the DTSHDMA decoding (which you will need for Fox blurays) that will come later via firmware...this is what the other articles have said.

Ph8te, I read that excerpt as saying that it will be able to pass DTS-HD MA via bitstream for outboard decoding after a firmware update (who knows what it will do with that track prior to that). I'm going to need the player to decode it. If that isn't what the review says, please fill me in. I might be back on the wagon after all :D

That is what the review says but it makes no sense because all existing bitstreaming players have easily implemented a sort of "all or none" bitstreaming...meaning once you have bitstreaming via 1.3hdmi it will do every codec...it makes no sense to need firmware to add just the DTSHDMA bitstreaming and to only have TrueHD bitstreaming at launch. All the other reviews have said they are adding DTSHDMA decoding via firmware...which makes total sense as no player currently does DTSHD-MA decoding. The PS3 decodes TrueHD and via firmware wil eventually do DTSHD-MA. So I still think this player is a safe bet to eventually have DTSHDMA decoding.

DTSHDMA decoding is obviously more complicated or less developed as no one has it yet...but there have been quotes from Sony that they are working with DTS to add it to the PS3 and more of the new highend players coming out next year are quoting it in there specs....I think its just a matter of time and I'm sure the 5000 will be one of the first to get it (probably a race with the PS3).

that seems to be the consensus. i certainly hope so.

a thought crossed my mind about controlling time delay for speakers. i believe i read that the samsung won't have it.

does it matter if the disc player has delay capability if your surround sound processor has it (in my case the anthem avm20)? if i can preset it in the processor i would hope i wouldn't need to be concerned if my disc player had it or not.

From a complexity standpoint, it would seem easiest to have bitstream at release and add PCM decoding in the update, not the other way around.

From a complexity standpoint, it would seem easiest to have bitstream at release and add PCM decoding in the update, not the other way around.

It may be technically easier - but that stops
many uses of none HDMI v1.3 AVRs for enjoying
the platform.

It may be technically easier - but that stops
many uses of none HDMI v1.3 AVRs for enjoying
the platform.
Hank, no question. It was not a value judgement. Just from an early Jan delivery and a Feb/Mar upgrade it would seem easier to implement the bitstream first. Sequencuencing features based on user base, you are a rervolutionary ;)

it would seem easier to implement the bitstream first.

Tim: I agree 100% it should be easier.

I'm in the same boat, with a Onkyo TX-DS989 and am planning to use my multi-channel analog inputs for a year or two until I upgrade receivers.

From what I understand (and someone here can please correct me if I'm wrong) we will miss out on a single cable "all digital" solution. Rather we will have analog connections because the audio will be converted in the receiver.

My TV is second generation HD without HDMI, so I'll have a similar situation with my video input going over component. I figure I'll upgrade receivers when I upgrade televisions in 2010 (an agreement I have with my wife).

Cheers,
Spence

I've got a TX-DS898 and plan on doing the same as you, multichannel analog inputs. I haven't yet convinced myself a receiver upgrade is necessary. As long as the analog section of the player is decent I should be good to go. A new receiver would be great, but I'd rather spend the money on an HD player and movies.

I have an Integra 9.1u2 receiver (Integra version of your Onkyo's), and I plan on using the analog inputs also. Does anyone know if the speaker distance settings on our units carry over to the analog inputs as well? I'm concerned because the Samsung Duo player won't have them (well, the prototype anyway.)

Bass management settings do not apply to the multichannel inputs on my Onkyo 898, I think the same applies to the 989. I didn't realize that the Samsung does not include bass management settings. Hopefully this is something that is incorporated for the final release. I would see very odd to me to omit these features. Why bother to put the analog outputs on the player at all if they aren't fully supported?

I have read somewhere the Samsung will have some bass management - by selecting "small" everything below (I think) 100hz is routed to the sub. What happens if neither the player or the receiver have speaker distance settings - that's my concern. I'm wondering if the speaker distance settings on my Integra (Onkyo) apply to the multi channel analog inputs...but my guess is they don't. In that case, is it even worth hooking up?

Patrick

The analog outputs are only stop gap until the unit is properly fed to a HDMI prepro/receiver.

I can't see how anyone can really consider them for permamant use unless your equipment can process analog via the 7.1 inputs.
(very few can)

It's really no different than what happened when DTS first came to DVDs.

The analog outputs are only stop gap until the unit is properly fed to a HDMI prepro/receiver.

I can't see how anyone can really consider them for permamant use unless your equipment can process analog via the 7.1 inputs.
(very few can)

It's really no different than what happened when DTS first came to DVDs.

I disagree. The player may actually do a better decode than a receiver, and hence the analogs would be a better choice for some. Personally, I love the way my analog outs sound on my A1. Not exactly a "stop gap" for me.

I have read somewhere the Samsung will have some bass management - by selecting "small" everything below (I think) 100hz is routed to the sub. What happens if neither the player or the receiver have speaker distance settings - that's my concern. I'm wondering if the speaker distance settings on my Integra (Onkyo) apply to the multi channel analog inputs...but my guess is they don't. In that case, is it even worth hooking up?

Patrick

I have searched, and I cannot find anything stating that the analog inputs on the 989/9.1 in any way bypass the receiver's audio processing.

Here is a link to Onkyo's user guide for the TX-DS989. The page on setting up speaker distance is found on page 30.

http://63.148.251.135/redirect_service.cfm?type=own_manuals&file=tx-ds989_us.pdf

Spence

I disagree. The player may actually do a better decode than a receiver, and hence the analogs would be a better choice for some. Personally, I love the way my analog outs sound on my A1. Not exactly a "stop gap" for me.

You SAY this ONLY because you have not had
the opportunity to COMPARE Analog to HDMI.

SURE Analog out is better than NOTHING - but
someday you will experience Digital Audio versus
Analog and you will WONDER why you waited so LONG :p

You SAY this ONLY because you have not had
the opportunity to COMPARE Analog to HDMI.

SURE Analog out is better than NOTHING - but
someday you will experience Digital Audio versus
Analog and you will WONDER why you waited so LONG :p

Remember, even if it's defective, poorly designed, or just plain horrible sounding, digital is ALWAYS better than analog.

(I've learned that in the HD Radio section.)

I have searched, and I cannot find anything stating that the analog inputs on the 989/9.1 in any way bypass the receiver's audio processing.

Here is a link to Onkyo's user guide for the TX-DS989. The page on setting up speaker distance is found on page 30.

http://63.148.251.135/redirect_service.cfm?type=own_manuals&file=tx-ds989_us.pdf

Spence


On page 32 of the Onkyo manual, it tells us that the speaker level settings do not carry over for the multi-channel analog sources - so then it follows that the speaker distance settings do not carry over either. There are adjustments for speaker levels for the analog inputs.

That's why it would be REALLY NICE if the Samsung duo player provided distance level settings. I'm wondering how usefull the analog outs will be without this feature.

Sorry if this has been posted:

Sound & Vision Preview of the 5000

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hdtvs/2568/samsungs-bluhd-combo-player-bd-up5000.html

I disagree. The player may actually do a better decode than a receiver, and hence the analogs would be a better choice for some. Personally, I love the way my analog outs sound on my A1. Not exactly a "stop gap" for me.

I would be more inclined to buy into that if this was the "DVD-3800BDCI Universal Player from Denon [pre release]" thread.

Sorry if this has been posted:

Sound & Vision Preview of the 5000

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hdtvs/2568/samsungs-bluhd-combo-player-bd-up5000.html

I really want this player, but no way unless all those operational quirks are worked out by the time of release or the first firmware release.

I really want this player, but no way unless all those operational quirks are worked out by the time of release or the first firmware release.


I here ya. I'm being optomistic - Here's why: I'm sure Samsung was aware of these glitches when they handed over the pre-production unit to Sound & Vision. They must be confident they can fix them before release, or else it would be "suicide" to release a player with faults that have been documented & published in a HT mag.

This player seems to be getting a ton of publicity, and Samsung knows they will sell a bunch of them if they do it right. That's why I say take till early January to release this thing if you must...but just give us a player we can enjoy with no major headaches.

I here ya. I'm being optomistic - Here's why: I'm sure Samsung was aware of these glitches when they handed over the pre-production unit to Sound & Vision. They must be confident they can fix them before release, or else it would be "suicide" to release a player with faults that have been documented & published in a HT mag.

This player seems to be getting a ton of publicity, and Samsung knows they will sell a bunch of them if they do it right. That's why I say take till early January to release this thing if you must...but just give us a player we can enjoy with no major headaches.

These glitches are exactly those that us 1400 owners are experiencing. Perhaps if Samsung can get out a Firmware update that solves them in the 1400, the 5000's chances of glitch-freeness will look better.

You SAY this ONLY because you have not had
the opportunity to COMPARE Analog to HDMI.

SURE Analog out is better than NOTHING - but
someday you will experience Digital Audio versus
Analog and you will WONDER why you waited so LONG :p


I have my A1 hooked up to a Pioneer Elite VSX-49TX via the analog connection and TrueHD discs sound absolutely fantastic on my setup. I don't know if those same TrueHD soundtracks would sound noticeably better if I was connected via HDMI instead of the analogs.

Remember, even if it's defective, poorly designed, or just plain horrible sounding, digital is ALWAYS better than analog.

(I've learned that in the HD Radio section.)

You're joking, right? Otherwise, you haven't seen the many complaints that CD sound quality is inferior to lp?

There *shouldn't* be any difference at all to whether the decoding is done in the player or receiver (or pre/pro). The only differences should be due to the analog output stages of each (DACs, op amps, etc.).

The analog outputs are only stop gap until the unit is properly fed to a HDMI prepro/receiver.

Define "properly". My pre-HDMI Denon's analogs work just fine, and I have no intention of upgrading until HDMI gets all of it's handshake quirks out (IMO, HDMI is not even close to being ready for primetime). I was hoping that Samsung might be trying to break into the high-end market, but the crippled analog specs shows that they remain a fourth-tier CE, with no signs of ever changing. As for HDMI the only advantages HDMI has over the analogs are two: First, the analogs require an additional D/A conversion (the fewer conversions, the better). And second, there do not exist any high-end players with 7.1 analog outs (nor are any of the horizon - as for the Sammy, I said "high-end").

...digital is ALWAYS better than analog.

Sigh... do we really have to go over this again? The absolute best that digital can ever do is to equal the AQ potential offered by analog, and that is assuming an infinite sampling rate. It is theoretically impossible to ever exceed it. Anything less is merely an approximation of the waveform (actually, the sum of a lot of sine waves). Like Kevin, I have to hope that this statement was made with tounge firmly planted in cheek...

Define "properly". My pre-HDMI Denon's analogs work just fine, and I have no intention of upgrading until HDMI gets all of it's handshake quirks out (IMO, HDMI is not even close to being ready for primetime). I was hoping that Samsung might be trying to break into the high-end market, but the crippled analog specs shows that they remain a fourth-tier CE, with no signs of ever changing. As for HDMI the only advantages HDMI has over the analogs are two: First, the analogs require an additional D/A conversion (the fewer conversions, the better). And second, there do not exist any high-end players with 7.1 analog outs (nor are any of the horizon - as for the Sammy, I said "high-end").



Sigh... do we really have to go over this again? The absolute best that digital can ever do is to equal the AQ potential offered by analog, and that is assuming an infinite sampling rate. It is theoretically impossible to ever exceed it. Anything less is merely an approximation of the waveform (actually, the sum of a lot of sine waves). Like Kevin, I have to hope that this statement was made with tounge firmly planted in cheek...

I believe he was refering to the transport method.
and in that regard within the context of this subject he is still correct. It's always best to have as few digital to analog conversions as possible. BR/HD DVD is not an analog medium after all. Assuming your signal path for either method is clean it's all a moot point anyways. It's not like we're dealing with LP's here.

I was hoping that Samsung might be trying to break into the high-end market, but the crippled analog specs shows that they remain a fourth-tier CE, with no signs of ever changing.

Vader, If I buy this unit I'll need to use the analog outs to get the lossless formats. Can you elaborate on what you know about the analog specs you referred to?

Thanks.

I'm sure hoping the finalized product will include adjustments for the multi-channel analog outs (distance settings, channel levels, and bass management). I want to setup my non-HDMI receiver calibrated to the digital output (SPDIF) from the player but also be able to switch over to the analog output to listen to the lossless audio from both of these new formats. Therefore, I need to be able to calibrate the anologs inside the player. Honestly, what's the point of including 7.1 analog if you're not gonna provide adjustments?!

I have my A1 hooked up to a Pioneer Elite VSX-49TX via the analog connection and TrueHD discs sound absolutely fantastic on my setup. I don't know if those same TrueHD soundtracks would sound noticeably better if I was connected via HDMI instead of the analogs.

I would not make such a statement if I had not tried
it and compared them both.

When I first got my HD-DVD player March 2006 - I
hooked it up to my Lexicon MC-12b Pre/Pro, via
analog outputs. The Lexicon MC12b is a very high-end
Pre/Pro that processes the 7.1 analog inputs. Most
Pre/Pro just amplify the inputs and required the player
to manage all the other parameters.

It was not until Sept 2006 when a FW updated enabled
TrueHD Decoding so I could Listen to my first TrueHD
Audio via Analog to the MC-12b. It was GREAT a big
Improvement over DD and DTS.

But now it was time to upgrade my PJ from 1080i
to 1080p - that mandated a HDMI Pre/Pro.

In October 2006 - I bought an Anthem D2 Pre/Pro
which can handle both 7.1 Analog-In with Full Processing
and HDMI.

The D2 allowed me to do a side-by-side A/B/C comparison
of 7.1 analog on the Lexicon (A) to the Anthem D2
via Analog (B) as well as TrueHD via HDMI (C).

As big as the improvement was from DD & DTS to TrueHD
via Analog - there was also that much more IMPROVEMENT
one more time using HDMI.

If I was in the business of selling equipment - WHICH I AM NOT!
You could come here and do a BLIND A/B Comparison between
TrueHD 7.1 Analog and TrueHD HDMI. So far I have not found
a single person who is NOT AMAZED at the Improvement between
Analog and HDMI.

If you don't have a HDMI system yet - Analog is a GREAT
Improvement over DD and DTS. Just beware there are more
Improvements hiding in your system - someday to be released :D

circumstances,

Great Gabo hit the nail on the head: no distance settings, or bass management (fixed c/o at 100Hz).

Over on the P1400 thread there are lots of reports about people returning their units

Over on the P1400 thread there are lots of reports about people returning their units

I've just gone over to read some of these, and while it is troubling, I have to wonder if the majority of the issues can be attributed to BR not being released with finalized standards?

I mean, Samsung was one of the first to launch BR players, you'd think that by what... is this the third generation of players? you'd think by now that they'd have a more stable product.

I am still holding out for a 5000 in spite of it all as I have limited space in my rack, no HDMI on either my receiver or television (next major TV & receiver upgade is slated for 2010) so I need the multi-channel analog output.

I have no doubt that most, if not all of the issues being seen with the 1400 will be resolved via firmware updates. I am also expecting the 5000 to have it's share of quirks & shortcomings, but I am tollerant and will purchase this with the understanding that I might be returning it within 30 days.

In short. I have faith and I have patience. What with the current issues and perceived return rate of the 1400s, Samsung really needs the 5000 to hit one out of the park! :)

circumstances,

Great Gabo hit the nail on the head: no distance settings, or bass management (fixed c/o at 100Hz).

Thanks. I was concerned that you were referring to the quality of some technology or components in the analog section. My Anthem AVM20 gives me control over distance settings, bass management, etc. for analog inputs.

Ya a BB sales person is lucky that they MAY be qualified to wash my car. They are definitely not qualified to sell me anything or offer their advice. :) hehe sorry off topic but those guys get under my skin every time I go there.

Justin
Depends on where you go. Look for a Magnolia Home Theater inside a BBY, and find the guy there who can hold his own in a conversation. That will be the guy who can actually work with you and help you. Not all of us are Mongos. :)

I canceled my Best Buy preorder and am just going to buy a Panasonic BD 30. Then sometime next year I'll buy an HD-DVD player. I'm just hearing too many horror stories about Samsung Blu-ray players.

I concur with drhankz observations on analog out versus hdmi out. I have tried both on my Denon receiver and the hdmi out is definitely better.

I concur with drhankz observations on analog out versus hdmi out. I have tried both on my Denon receiver and the hdmi out is definitely better.

THANKS http://www.rx8web.com/smilies/bouncy.gif

I believe he was refering to the transport method.
and in that regard within the context of this subject he is still correct. It's always best to have as few digital to analog conversions as possible. BR/HD DVD is not an analog medium after all. Assuming your signal path for either method is clean it's all a moot point anyways. It's not like we're dealing with LP's here.

Whew, nice to hear a voice of reason here. I couldn't figure out why people were debating analog vs digital when we're talking about a digital source and digital-signal-processing AVRs.

No sense converting to analog at the source only to have the receiver convert it back to digital, then analog again. Even if that isn't the case (some receivers have a pure analog path) you're better off with your receiver's DACs than the player's.

I don't yet have an HDMI AVR, but my analog inputs are in use by my PC, so I'm just gonna use the basic DD/DTS until I upgrade my receiver.

I don't know exactly where this info regarding the analog outs is coming from....sounds like people with agendas to me. I would wait until Samsung releases the player or at least a final release owners manual before making a decision based on this.

I don't know exactly where this info regarding the analog outs is coming from....sounds like people with agendas to me.

I'm with you on this one. I think it may be more a case of the "placebo effect" than anything because I've yet to see any documented proof that a TrueHD soundtrack sounds any better through HDMI than it does through the analog connections.

I was more referring to a few certain members here presenting information on the analog out capabilites (BM, distance settings, etc) as if it were fact when the player is not out yet. I would hate for people to go away from this player because of the COMPLETE FABRICATIONS of a few.

In regards to analog out compared to HDMI. Once a guy at BB tried to demo an A/B comparison. Sure enough the hdmi sounded great, then he switched to analog input mode, BUT he had the analog signal sent to the digital processor on the receiver which then converted it back to digital and processed it to dolby pro logic then of course it gets converted back to analog out to the amp...that sounded terrible. So make sure when you do these A/B comparisons you set the analog input to a bypass mode on your receiver so that they do not get converted back into the digital domain.

I'm very interested in this comparsion because with my Rotel pre/amp setup I do not have hdmi inputs, but I love the audio capabilities of the system.

I am still not convienced that HDMI sounds better if you do the analog method correctly, because with the analog inputs you still realize basically the same audio path... that is:

digital from disk -> to some audio codec (on Disk player or reciever) -> to the DACs.

I welcome other experiences on this, because I'm really interested in the BD-UP5000, to complete my setup

I was more referring to a few certain members here presenting information on the analog out capabilites (BM, distance settings, etc) as if it were fact when the player is not out yet. I would hate for people to go away from this player because of the COMPLETE FABRICATIONS of a few.

The one detailed hands on preview of the unit did state that the analog outs only had a simple x-over setting.

If I'm not mistaken, all of the currently released Samsung Bluray units are also this way.
(If I'm wrong, please correct me.)

Now as to whether keeping the digital path right to the receiver as apposed to converting it at the player, only your own personal experiences will prove that out.
So far many who have tried with their own equipment have verified it to be the case.

My only similar experience was when DTS first showed up on DVD players and the similar situation existed.
I didn't have a DTS receiver at the time so I let the player do the decoding and send PCM to my receiver. I thought I had audio bliss until the day I got my new DTS receiver and let the audio equipment properly handle the audio duties. It was no comparison.
Until proven otherwise I will be in the "audio should be handled at the prepro/receiver instead of the player" camp.
Others will feel otherwise.

Who is right? Only you at home with your equipment can decide.

No sense converting to analog at the source only to have the receiver convert it back to digital, then analog again. Even if that isn't the case (some receivers have a pure analog path) you're better off with your receiver's DACs than the player's.

I think my Pioneer receiver simply amplifies the analog signal sent from my Toshiba XA2. The receiver can only adjust the channel levels of the analog input, all other adjustments are disabled. I was actually under the impression that only very high-end receivers can convert the analog signal back to digital to do processing...and then back to analog again. Am I wrong about this? Thanks.

Also, I think the DACs in the XA2 are very very good.

Has anyone seen this Samsung spec sheet yet? Hope I didn't dupe a earlier post.

Link (http://media.*******.com/Image_Products/Samsung/BD-UP5000.pdf)

Has anyone seen this Samsung spec sheet yet? Hope I didn't dupe a earlier post.

Link (http://media.*******.com/Image_Products/Samsung/BD-UP5000.pdf)

Look to the beginning of this thread, or do a search for "specs" within this thread. The spec shet has been around for sometime now :) .

I think my Pioneer receiver simply amplifies the analog signal sent from my Toshiba XA2. The receiver can only adjust the channel levels of the analog input, all other adjustments are disabled. I was actually under the impression that only very high-end receivers can convert the analog signal back to digital to do processing...and then back to analog again. Am I wrong about this? Thanks.

Also, I think the DACs in the XA2 are very very good.

You are not wrong.

Can someone explain why they would want to use the analog outputs?
with HDMI (which I don't have on my pre/pro) and coax or toslink digital...why the need or want for analog?

Can someone explain why they would want to use the analog outputs?
with HDMI (which I don't have on my pre/pro) and coax or toslink digital...why the need or want for analog?

As you said, if you have HDMI, you don't need it.

I think most of these folks don't have HDMI, so will need multichannel analog to feed their AVR for hi-def audio.

EDIT: also, multichannel analog is better than coax or s/pdif because it has higher bandwidth available for the higher-grade audio on the HDM formats.

Can someone explain why they would want to use the analog outputs?
with HDMI (which I don't have on my pre/pro) and coax or toslink digital...why the need or want for analog?

Good question.

Remember it needs to be analog at the end of the line right, we are just discussing the audio path to get there.

I believe you want the least amount of AD and DA conversions in that path. Ideally it is digital on the disk, then you take those bytes and process them in your DSP then send the output to the DACs.

Lets image you have a very good disk player that has a good DSP and good DACs, I don't see then the need for hdmi, because now all you do is send the analog output of these DACs to you reciever (in bypass mode), then it's off to the power amps, really no different than the hdmi path.

Anyway that is my understanding. I here to learn too. :)

That is why the Samsung is of interesting to me, because it is supposed to handle all the new audio decoding on the player, so now I can keep my really nice Rotel audio equipment, and not settle for inferior recievers that have hdmi.

I've been told on this forum that, other than HDMI, there is no other digital way to output TrueHD or DTS-HD MA to your pre/pro. If your pre/pro has no HDMI, you can only get these formats via analog.

Can someone explain why they would want to use the analog outputs?

If the player supported the (relatively limited) required features, it would eliminate a pre-pro from my system altogether: Instead I would be running a buffer + switched relay (buffer probably will bump gain a little) for each channel, and from there to a power amp (or monoblocks). No digital anywhere else in that chain. To do this I'd need decode support for any and all desired formats. Added bonus would be some control over output level and some crossover control as well, but I could increase the complexity of said analog pre-amp stage to provide some crossover functions + sum with LFE as well as phase adjust and individual channel level adjustment. But it could still be all analog. Such an analog device won't grow stale with time forcing yet another receiver or pre-pro upgrade when the next big thing shows up.

I've given up on this. Instead, each time there's something big, it'll be a whole system update because that's what they want to force.

C

I just found out that apparently there is a "triple layer" HD DVD in the works that holds 51 gb, about the size of the current Blu Ray disks. Some people think there will be a compatability issue between these new disks and current HD DVD players. That would suck if it's true

My only similar experience was when DTS first showed up on DVD players and the similar situation existed.
I didn't have a DTS receiver at the time so I let the player do the decoding and send PCM to my receiver. I thought I had audio bliss until the day I got my new DTS receiver and let the audio equipment properly handle the audio duties. It was no comparison.

Until proven otherwise I will be in the "audio should be handled at the prepro/receiver instead of the player" camp.
Others will feel otherwise.

Who is right? Only you at home with your equipment can decide.

The idea that your new receiver "properly" handled the DTS signal vs. the player is a bit misleading. What is more likely is that the receiver had improved DAC's and bass management functionality compared the player. Your point about not having a DTS-capable receiver is essentially the same situation we are in right now. I could buy a new receiver and a HD disc player to get audio over HDMI, or I just buy a player and utilize my existing equipment. Either way I enjoy hi-res audio and an HD picture. Why spend more than I have to?

I understand your point and agree, ideally a receiver or pre/pro should handle all the audio duties, but until the majority of receiver and pre/pro owners have HDMI input capabilities, an analog output from the player will remain a perfectly viable option.

I've been told on this forum that, other than HDMI, there is no other digital way to output TrueHD or DTS-HD MA to your pre/pro. If your pre/pro has no HDMI, you can only get these formats via analog.

You are PARTIALLY correct.

Let me try to explain ----

1) Since the Dawn of CD and then DVD and now Hi-Def DVD - all
the information recorded is Digital - aka 1's and 0's - just like your
Computer 100% Binary.

2) Ultimately us HUMANS are Analog - we hear and see in Analog.
So at some point - the conversion from Digital to Analog has to be
made. Where it is made and the quality of that conversion is the BIG
QUESTION.

3) Even when recordings are made - the information has to be
converted from Analog to Digital.

4) As an Engineer for 40+ Years - I can tell you no one to date
can deliver perfect conversion from Analog to Digital and Digital
to Analog. The QUALITY and Accuracy of A-to-D and D-to-A is
never perfect. Therefore the fewer times this needs to be done
the better and it should be done where the best Converters reside.

5) Lets assume the Studios Delivering the content to us use the
BEST A-to-D equipment they can buy - because ultimately it controls
the look and sound of their product. If they use shabby equipment
we see and hear shabby results. Some of the early Blu-Ray Movies
where of very poor quality because the transfer equipment was not
the best and new to this whole hi-def world. It is certainly much
better now - 1-1/2 years into this new world.

6) Now to get back to your partially correct statement. If one wants
to have the TrueHD or DTS-MA Hi-Def Digital track sent to your HDMI
receiver for decoding - then you are correct - it must flow over HDMI
and it must be Version 1.3 HDMI. The Digital bit rate of the Hi-Def
Audio requires HDMI v1.3 to transmit. Now remember - this means
the Digital info on the DVD is being transmitted just as it is on the DVD.
Any processing or conversion then takes place in the AVR or Pre/Pro.
NOTE: It is very recent that Devices supporting HDMI v1.3 and Decoding
of the TrueHD or DTS-MA bitstream are just now coming to the market.

7) However - you don't have to have this new equipment - above - Item 6.
The reason Player makers put decoding in the player is to make the
transition to lossless audio easier. What has been working is the Digital
TrueHD bitstream is converted IN-THE-PLAYER to a Digital PCM stream.
Any AVR or Pre/Pro with HDMI [any version] can accept the digital PCM
stream. The Conversion process from Digital TrueHD to Digital PCM is
a LOSSLESS conversion because it is all done in the digital domain. It
is just a series of 1's and 0's being converted to another series of 1's and
0's. The bitrate of the Digital PCM stream is lower because it is decoded
into 5.1 or 7.1 in the player and not sent out as a single hi-bitrate stream.

8) Now to discuss the D-to-A Conversion. As mentioned in #4 - the
D-to-A conversion is NEVER EVER LOSSLESS or PERFECT. The reason
player makers added the D-to-A conversion in the player is because
they knew when their players came to market - not everyone would
have a HDMI AVR or Pre/Pro. Therefore they wanted to provide some
level of hi-def audio experience. Most Older AVRs or Pre/Pro have
Analog Inputs from the old DVD days. D-to-A Converters [DACs] can
cost anywhere from $10 to $1.000's of Dollars. They are NOT ALL
CREATED EQUAL. Why such a wide variance - the high priced units
are suppose to deliver a better - more accurate conversion from
Digital to Analog. If you are looking at a $300-$500 HD Player - you
can be 100% sure the budget for DACs is maybe 1-3% of the player
cost - therefore the quality you will get by using Analog inputs is
what you paid for - not much - but better than nothing. If you are
paying for an AVR or Pre/Pro - it is their Specialty to provide higher
performance DACs than a Player.

Bottom Line - using HDMI either sending Bitstream via Version 1.3 or
PCM using HDMI version 1.1 or 1.2 is ALWAYS LOSSLESS. Using HDMI
means the D-to-A Conversion is done in the Higher Priced Audio AVR
or Pre/Pro. That should ALWAYS produce better sound than using some
$10 DAC in the player.

Where do you want your D-to-A conversion done?
And doing it more than once only adds to the degradation and quality.

You are PARTIALLY correct.

Let me try to explain ----

1) Since the Dawn of CD and then DVD and now Hi-Def DVD - all
the information recorded is Digital - aka 1's and 0's - just like your
Computer 100% Binary.

2) Ultimately us HUMANS are Analog - we hear and see in Analog.
So at some point - the conversion from Digital to Analog has to be
made. Where it is made and the quality of that conversion is the BIG
QUESTION.

3) Even when recordings are made - the information has to be
converted from Analog to Digital.

4) As an Engineer for 40+ Years - I can tell you no one to date
can deliver perfect conversion from Analog to Digital and Digital
to Analog. The QUALITY and Accuracy of A-to-D and D-to-A is
never perfect. Therefore the fewer times this needs to be done
the better and it should be done where the best Converters reside.

5) Lets assume the Studios Delivering the content to us use the
BEST A-to-D equipment they can buy - because ultimately it controls
the look and sound of their product. If they use shabby equipment
we see and hear shabby results. Some of the early Blu-Ray Movies
where of very poor quality because the transfer equipment was not
the best and new to this whole hi-def world. It is certainly much
better now - 1-1/2 years into this new world.

6) Now to get back to your partially correct statement. If one wants
to have the TrueHD or DTS-MA Hi-Def Digital track sent to your HDMI
receiver for decoding - then you are correct - it must flow over HDMI
and it must be Version 1.3 HDMI. The Digital bit rate of the Hi-Def
Audio requires HDMI v1.3 to transmit. Now remember - this means
the Digital info on the DVD is being transmitted just as it is on the DVD.
Any processing or conversion then takes place in the AVR or Pre/Pro.
NOTE: It is very recent that Devices supporting HDMI v1.3 and Decoding
of the TrueHD or DTS-MA bitstream are just now coming to the market.

7) However - you don't have to have this new equipment - above - Item 6.
The reason Player makers put decoding in the player is to make the
transition to lossless audio easier. What has been working is the Digital
TrueHD bitstream is converted IN-THE-PLAYER to a Digital PCM stream.
Any AVR or Pre/Pro with HDMI [any version] can accept the digital PCM
stream. The Conversion process from Digital TrueHD to Digital PCM is
a LOSSLESS conversion because it is all done in the digital domain. It
is just a series of 1's and 0's being converted to another series of 1's and
0's. The bitrate of the Digital PCM stream is lower because it is decoded
into 5.1 or 7.1 in the player and not sent out as a single hi-bitrate stream.

8) Now to discuss the D-to-A Conversion. As mentioned in #4 - the
D-to-A conversion is NEVER EVER LOSSLESS or PERFECT. The reason
player makers added the D-to-A conversion in the player is because
they knew when their players came to market - not everyone would
have a HDMI AVR or Pre/Pro. Therefore they wanted to provide some
level of hi-def audio experience. Most Older AVRs or Pre/Pro have
Analog Inputs from the old DVD days. D-to-A Converters [DACs] can
cost anywhere from $10 to $1.000's of Dollars. They are NOT ALL
CREATED EQUAL. Why such a wide variance - the high priced units
are suppose to deliver a better - more accurate conversion from
Digital to Analog. If you are looking at a $300-$500 HD Player - you
can be 100% sure the budget for DACs is maybe 1-3% of the player
cost - therefore the quality you will get by using Analog inputs is
what you paid for - not much - but better than nothing. If you are
paying for an AVR or Pre/Pro - it is their Specialty to provide higher
performance DACs than a Player.

Bottom Line - using HDMI either sending Bitstream via Version 1.3 or
PCM using HDMI version 1.1 or 1.2 is ALWAYS LOSSLESS. Using HDMI
means the D-to-A Conversion is done in the Higher Priced Audio AVR
or Pre/Pro. That should ALWAYS produce better sound than using some
$10 DAC in the player.

Where do you want your D-to-A conversion done?
And doing it more than once only adds to the degradation and quality.

Man, that sucks, I was hoping to not replace my Yamaha rx v2400. It does have 7.1 analog inputs. From what I gather in your very informative post, it seems the D to A converters in the Blu Ray or HD DVD players are not that great. I guess the audio difference will be apparent if I listened to the conversion done in a HDMI receiver that can decode the new audios compared to listening it via analog inputs with the decoding done in the dvd player.

Man, that sucks, I was hoping to not replace my Yamaha rx v2400. It does have 7.1 analog inputs. From what I gather in your very informative post, it seems the D to A converters in the Blu Ray or HD DVD players are not that great. I guess the audio difference will be apparent if I listened to the conversion done in a HDMI receiver that can decode the new audios compared to listening it via analog inputs with the decoding done in the dvd player.

AGAIN - using the Analogs with your Yamaha will
make you say WOW - that is BETTER.

But there is even more WOW to be had :D

I use a high-end Pre/Pro - Anthem D2 - I have
7.1 Analog inputs and HDMI. I can do a BLIND
A/B test - and let me say it is night and day.

I guess I need to start looking at HDMI v1.3 capable pre/pros. :eek:

AGAIN - using the Analogs with your Yamaha will
make you say WOW - that is BETTER.

But there is even more WOW to be had :D

I use a high-end Pre/Pro - Anthem D2 - I have
7.1 Analog inputs and HDMI. I can do a BLIND
A/B test - and let me say it is night and day.


One can never have enough WOW :D

I guess I need to start looking at HDMI v1.3 capable pre/pros. :eek:

Buying today - you might as well focus on HDMI 1.3.

You'll need HDMI-something for hi-def video although
full 1080p does work just fine over non HDMI 1.3.

One can never have enough WOW :D

That's why a lot of people refer to this as a HOBBY http://www.rx8web.com/smilies/bouncy.gif

Thanks drhankz. My earlier statement was meant for folks without an HDMI receiver or pre/pro.

Someone had asked if they could get the lossless formats through some other digital connection, IIRC. I was trying to tell him that I was told it was analog or nothing.

I have an Anthem AVM20 and eventually will step up to a Statement D2. My current DVD player is an ancient Pioneer Elite DV 09 which is connected to the Anthem via optical or digital coax (not analog). Standard def. DVD's with 5.1 soundtracks sound good. I can only hope the High Definition discs with lossless formats will sound appreciably better, even utilizing the analog connection.

Hopefully Anthem equipped the AVM20 with high enough end D to A and A to D converters that the degradation of quality won't be glaring.

If I could afford to get a pre/pro that was superior to the AVM 20 with HDMI I'd think about it. I'm just very happy with the AVM 20 (with the Anthem MCA50 power amp) and would not want to have to replace it right now.

I already need to buy a High Definition disc player of some kind, I'm about to take the plunge on a VPL-VW60 projector, then I need a screen (about 10' diagonal), then I need to install it all. So not having to purchase a new pre/pro right now would be good :D

8) Now to discuss the D-to-A Conversion. As mentioned in #4 - the
D-to-A conversion is NEVER EVER LOSSLESS or PERFECT. The reason
player makers added the D-to-A conversion in the player is because
they knew when their players came to market - not everyone would
have a HDMI AVR or Pre/Pro. Therefore they wanted to provide some
level of hi-def audio experience. Most Older AVRs or Pre/Pro have
Analog Inputs from the old DVD days. D-to-A Converters [DACs] can
cost anywhere from $10 to $1.000's of Dollars. They are NOT ALL
CREATED EQUAL. Why such a wide variance - the high priced units
are suppose to deliver a better - more accurate conversion from
Digital to Analog. If you are looking at a $300-$500 HD Player - you
can be 100% sure the budget for DACs is maybe 1-3% of the player
cost - therefore the quality you will get by using Analog inputs is
what you paid for - not much - but better than nothing. If you are
paying for an AVR or Pre/Pro - it is their Specialty to provide higher
performance DACs than a Player.

Great post.

Only one point that I think you are not making a engineering judgment on, hey I'm an engineer too, working in the Signal Integrity field for 10 years so I know a few things about this... :), with some of my projects being settop boxes that had quite a few audio and video circuitry and components in them. I don't think you can assume that a DAC in a DVD player is inferior to one in the receiver. Does anyone have any information about the DACs used in the Samsung player??

You know if you look at the BOM (bill of materials) between a DVD player and a reciever I would guess (and it is a guess) that the ratio between the DACs and the rest of the parts may even be lower in a reciever, in other words, spending a few more bucks on the DAC, percentage wise, is less of an BOM cost impact on the DVD player....so one could conclude that a Samsung for example could throw more money at the DACs...

Buying today - you might as well focus on HDMI 1.3.

You'll need HDMI-something for hi-def video although
full 1080p does work just fine over non HDMI 1.3.

So true.

Only one point that I think you are not making a engineering judgment on, hey I'm an engineer too, working in the Signal Integrity field for 10 years so I know a few things about this... :), with some of my projects being settop boxes that had quite a few audio and video circuitry and components in them. I don't think you can assume that a DAC in a DVD player is inferior to one in the receiver. Does anyone have any information about the DACs used in the Samsung player??

Obviously NONE of us can make any Factual comment
on any product that has not shipped yet. That would
mean we have a crystal ball.

But when you have a product that retails for $799 to
end users you have to estimated Samsung's Bill of Material
is Probably $150 to $200 Max. You have to assume from
there - the Percentage for D-to-A Converters is at best
$10 or $15.

When I look at the difference between my Anthem D2
$6699 and the Anthem AVM50 [Pre/Pro] is $4699 and
the ONLY DIFFERENCE between the D2 and the AVM50
is the DACs - That tells me that the DACs in the D2
ALONE are very expensive as compared to the DACs
in the Samsung Player.

Obviously none of us can judge the Quality of the DACs
in the Samsung Player - but COMMON Engineering practice
suggests they can't have the BEST DACs money can buy.

And WHY IN THE WORLD would they spend any more than
necessary when HDMI is the best choice for Hi-Def Audio and
Video. You are asking a Consumer Electronics Manufacturer
to effectively VIOLATE the Laws of Physics. :D :D :D

So true.

TIM -- You have to STOP agreeing with me :D

Maybe it is time to toss back some SERIOUS BOOZE
at a Local Bar :D

Obviously NONE of us can make any Factual comment
on any product that has not shipped yet. That would
mean we have a crystal ball.

But when you have a product that retails for $799 to
end users you have to estimated Samsung's Bill of Material
is Probably $150 to $200 Max. You have to assume from
there - the Percentage for D-to-A Converters is at best
$10 or $15.

When I look at the difference between my Anthem D2
$6699 and the Anthem AVM50 [Pre/Pro] is $4699 and
the ONLY DIFFERENCE between the D2 and the AVM50
is the DACs - That tells me that the DACs in the D2
ALONE are very expensive as compared to the DACs
in the Samsung Player.

Obviously none of us can judge the Quality of the DACs
in the Samsung Player - but COMMON Engineering practice
suggests they can't have the BEST DACs money can buy.

And WHY IN THE WORLD would they spend any more than
necessary when HDMI is the best choice for Hi-Def Audio and
Video. You are asking a Consumer Electronics Manufacturer
to effectively VIOLATE the Laws of Physics. :D :D :D

Well that is true. Thanks for that.

But for some of us we have this scenerio:

Currently I have about 4K invested in a pre/Pro and AMP combo from Rotel, this equipment is very good but does not have hdmi. I am currently trying to decide on how to take advatage of the new lossless audio for movies. But I love my music and this system is nice for that, in fact I think it is better than any equally priced receiver (that may or may not have HDMI)

Its a trade off of course, and in my case... I would be looking at investing in a new 4K or so reciever with hdmi and degrade the music part, but increase the movie audio part...

That is why I need to know about the DACs in the Samsung.... now we really do not need a crystal ball, there are samsung engineers who know this.... :)

This also reminds me of when SACD first came out, in that case as well the decoders were in the player, so there was that time where you would get much better audio when using the cd player analog outputs

Its a trade off of course, and in my case... I would be looking at investing in a new 4K or so reciever with hdmi and degrade the music part, but increase the movie audio part...

There is not a direct correlation with a HDMI
Pre/Pro or Receiver reducing your music enjoyment.

I had over $10K invested in a Lexicon MC-12b when I
first added HD-Players to my theater. I tried the 7.1
Analogs into the Lexicon. It was a BIG STEP UP over
DD and DTS.

But as an ENGINEER - I assumed there was more enjoyment
to be had. Therefore I purchased an Anthem D2. It has EQUAL
Music Performance to the Lexicon MC-12b and just blew away
even the Lexicon MC-12HD - which I considered but tried both
before going with the Anthem D2.

If you are a Rotel Fan - you need to experience Anthem - even
the AVM50 will turn you into an DEDICATED Anthem Bigot.

There is not a direct correlation with a HDMI
Pre/Pro or Receiver reducing your music enjoyment.

I had over $10K invested in a Lexicon MC-12b when I
first added HD-Players to my theater. I tried the 7.1
Analogs into the Lexicon. It was a BIG STEP UP over
DD and DTS.

But as an ENGINEER - I assumed there was more enjoyment
to be had. Therefore I purchased an Anthem D2. It has EQUAL
Music Performance to the Lexicon MC-12b and just blew away
even the Lexicon MC-12HD - which I considered but tried both
before going with the Anthem D2.

If you are a Rotel Fan - you need to experience Anthem - even
the AVM50 will turn you into an DEDICATED Anthem Bigot.

Agreed.

If I had 6k laying around that is what I would to....:D

BUT if you have only 1K lets say... then I am still thinking that I would get audio improvements with the samsung with lossless audio formats and using the analog outs, as compared to lossy formats that I can only realize using the optical inputs on the Rotel...

Agreed.

If I had 6k laying around that is what I would to....:D

BUT if you have only 1K lets say... then I am still thinking that I would get audio improvements with the samsung with lossless audio formats and using the analog outs, as compared to lossy formats that I can only realize using the optical inputs on the Rotel...

Analogs are a STEP UP from Legacy DD and DTS even if
Samsung doesn't have to die for DACs. You will enjoy it.
I have my Samsung on order with Amazon.

I have Stand-Alone Toshiba HD DVD and Pioneer Blu-Ray.
So I can wait and if there is ANYTHING wrong with the
Samsung - it will go bacl to Amazon.

Analogs are a STEP UP from Legacy DD and DTS even if
Samsung doesn't have to die for DACs. You will enjoy it.
I have my Samsung on order with Amazon.

I have Stand-Alone Toshiba HD DVD and Pioneer Blu-Ray.
So I can wait and if there is ANYTHING wrong with the
Samsung - it will go bacl to Amazon.

Thats what I think too. Thanks for the tip on the Anthem... maybe next year on that one..:)

Currently I have about 4K invested in a pre/Pro and AMP combo from Rotel, this equipment is very good but does not have hdmi. I am currently trying to decide on how to take advatage of the new lossless audio for movies. But I love my music and this system is nice for that, in fact I think it is better than any equally priced receiver (that may or may not have HDMI)



Sell your 1066 or 1068 and upgrade to an Integra DTC 9.8!!! :D

Obviously NONE of us can make any Factual comment
on any product that has not shipped yet. That would
mean we have a crystal ball.

But when you have a product that retails for $799 to
end users you have to estimated Samsung's Bill of Material
is Probably $150 to $200 Max. You have to assume from
there - the Percentage for D-to-A Converters is at best
$10 or $15.

When I look at the difference between my Anthem D2
$6699 and the Anthem AVM50 [Pre/Pro] is $4699 and
the ONLY DIFFERENCE between the D2 and the AVM50
is the DACs - That tells me that the DACs in the D2
ALONE are very expensive as compared to the DACs
in the Samsung Player.

Obviously none of us can judge the Quality of the DACs
in the Samsung Player - but COMMON Engineering practice
suggests they can't have the BEST DACs money can buy.

And WHY IN THE WORLD would they spend any more than
necessary when HDMI is the best choice for Hi-Def Audio and
Video. You are asking a Consumer Electronics Manufacturer
to effectively VIOLATE the Laws of Physics. :D :D :D

BTW being the geek that I am I looked up the DAC in the Anthem D2

It cost $6.32 in qtys of 1000.. so much for our BOM analysis, not saying these are bad in fact they seem to be getting good reviews, just putting it all in perspective.

http://electronicdesign.com/Articles/Print.cfm?ArticleID=4834


So maybe a $700 dollar player can use the same DACs... we will see

for $6.32 maybe it's the same DAC in my Anthem AVM20! :D

There is one further complicating issue about sound via HDMI, and that's that players have to convert DTS-MA or True HD to PCM first before they can send it via HDMI 1.1 or 1.2. As was well-put above, the digital audio info has to be converted to analog at some point so it can be sent to the speakers. To get *compressed* *lossless* hi-res audio (eg. DTS-HD MA or Dolby True HD) off the disc to the speakers there are three ways to do this:

1. Have the player convert the audio to analog internally, pass the analog signal via 5.1/7.1 analog outputs to the pre-pro or receiver, and have it processesed/amplified and sent to the speakers

2. Have the player pass the pure, original, digital audio information through an HDMI 1.3 output via bitstream, and have the pre-pro or receiver decode it and send the signal to the speakers

or

3. Have the player convert the lossless sounstrack from its original form into multi-channel PCM, then pass the multichannel PCM signal to the pre-pro or receiver via HDMI 1.2, have the pre-pro or receiver convert the multi channlel PCM information to analog and send it to the speakers.


The third option is what I have when I send a True HD soundtrack from my HD-A1 player to my Denon 3806 and it sounds great. However, there is this extra conversion from True HD to PCM that *could* be altering the sound information slightly. (This used to be discussed a lot in the SACD area when HDMI players came out that send PCM-converted audio via HDMI 1.2)

Some people who have upgraded to HDMI 1.3 receivers have posted that they think it sounds a bit better having the receiver do all the processing. I'd presume the differences to be minimal, but hard to say as its very subjective. (There's no question that when I hook up my 15 year old Denon CD player to my receiver, it sounds VASTLY better if I do it via coaxial and let the receiver do the decoding rather than using the DA conversion in the player and sending it via stereo RCA outputs. However, I bet the difference is much less with more modern equipment). With uncompressed PCM soundtracks there are no extra steps so no big deal.

Analog outputs from HDM players can sound great for sure, that comes down to whether the player or receiver has better processing, and how well your receiver handle incoming 5.1/7.1 audio from analog inputs, and how things are set up for distance settings and bass management. There are more variables here than with the other options.

Anyway, I suspect the best setup is sending these soundtracks via HDMI 1.3 for the receiver to process, but short of this there are several things that might make analog output or HDMI 1.1/1.2 output better for any one person's particular setup.

There is one further complicating issue about sound via HDMI, and that's that players have to convert DTS-MA or True HD to PCM first before they can send it via HDMI 1.1 or 1.2. As was well-put above, the digital audio info has to be converted to analog at some point so it can be sent to the speakers. To get *compressed* *lossless* hi-res audio (eg. DTS-HD MA or Dolby True HD) off the disc to the speakers there are three ways to do this:

1. Have the player convert the audio to analog internally, pass the analog signal via 5.1/7.1 analog outputs to the pre-pro or receiver, and have it processesed/amplified and sent to the speakers

SNIP

.

Admittedly, I am just learning this info as I attempt to get HD sound to my speakers when my pre/pro cannot accept HDMI -- but I have to wonder about getting lossless hires audio out via analog inputs to the receiver -- correct me if wrong, but I had the understanding that the 5-7 Mbps bitstream of True-HD is reduced to a meager 640kbps DD5.1 or at most 1.5 Mbps if it is transcoded to DTS 5.1 and it would not seem likely that such slow bitrates resulting from analog would produce the HD sound equivalent to True-HD or DTS-MA. Help me out here if incorrect.

MikeSp

Admittedly, I am just learning this info as I attempt to get HD sound to my speakers when my pre/pro cannot accept HDMI -- but I have to wonder about getting lossless hires audio out via analog inputs to the receiver -- correct me if wrong, but I had the understanding that the 5-7 Mbps bitstream of True-HD is reduced to a meager 640kbps DD5.1 or at most 1.5 Mbps if it is transcoded to DTS 5.1 and it would not seem likely that such slow bitrates resulting from analog would produce the HD sound equivalent to True-HD or DTS-MA. Help me out here if incorrect.

MikeSp

If you output the sound via HDMI or ANALOG outputs, you get the full sound bandwidth. It's only if you output via OPTICAL that it has to be reduced to DTS or DD so it can fit through optical which has less bandwidth.

Greg, keep in mind that your AVR is still decompressing to LPCM in order to apply Dolby PLIIx or the DTS equivalent as well as whatever other processing you have asked the AVR to provide, so it's apples to apples in my opinion, whether the player does it, or the AVR does it.

This isn't comparable to the DVD days where there was bitstream or analog... now there's the LPCM option, which IMO is the best idea going... keep the audio (and video) as simple as possible for transport and compatibility between all your equipment.

Therefore I purchased an Anthem D2. It has EQUAL
Music Performance to the Lexicon MC-12b and just blew away
even the Lexicon MC-12HD - which I considered but tried both
before going with the Anthem D2.


I have the Anthem D1, and am quite happy with the sound quality on movies, using the Toshiba HD-A1 as a 5.1 analog source on HD-DVDs. I realize that there is degredation from the D-A and D-A conversions on the front end, but the Anthem is quite good. I did an A/B with music with and without analog pass-through, and the differences are there, but minor. It's not going to be a big deal on movies.

As for the HD-A1 DACs, they are pretty good. They aren't amazing, but their deficiency on music is a slight lack of stereo soundstage, and bit of perceived loss of intimacy with the music. It doesn't add anything nasty to the sound (like most DVD players), and is quite listenable!

I was considering getting the Anthem D2-upgrade (called the D1-something), but I hate spending $2000 for a tiny sound quality improvement, and no DTS-MA support (as it is only HDMI 1.1). Is there really that much improvement? I can't really imagine it being that huge. Perhaps it depends on how good the analog outs are on the player?

That's why I'm wondering how good the analog outs will be on the Samsung. If bad, I would have to go HDMI if I get this player.

audioNeil,

It's my understanding that the D1 upgrade only involves the addition of the D2 video attributes and that there is no change in the audio.

audioNeil,

It's my understanding that the D1 upgrade only involves the addition of the D2 video attributes and that there is no change in the audio.

The upgrade is the entire HDMI support - which includes HDMI 1.1 support of PCM audio. The video support is nice, but with something like a Toshiba XA2 as a source, I don't need the HDMI video for anything more than pass-through. The upgrade seems like a lot of money for that.

audioNeil,

It's my understanding that the D1 upgrade only involves the addition of the D2 video attributes and that there is no change in the audio.

AGAIN that is not exactly 100% accurate.

The difference comes from the fact that with the UPGRADE
you can NOW accept the Digital PCM stream from the player
[WHICH is LOSSLESS digital] via HDMI - and then have that
processed by the same audio chain. Therefore you have
lossless audio versus lossy audio via analog-in.

drhankz,

Right...sorry, wasn't thinking forward enough.

(P.S.,..."AGAIN"?...was it something I said?)

The third option is what I have when I send a True HD soundtrack from my HD-A1 player to my Denon 3806 and it sounds great. However, there is this extra conversion from True HD to PCM that *could* be altering the sound information slightly. (This used to be discussed a lot in the SACD area when HDMI players came out that send PCM-converted audio via HDMI 1.2)

Some people who have upgraded to HDMI 1.3 receivers have posted that they think it sounds a bit better having the receiver do all the processing. I'd presume the differences to be minimal, but hard to say as its very subjective. (There's no question that when I hook up my 15 year old Denon CD player to my receiver, it sounds VASTLY better if I do it via coaxial and let the receiver do the decoding rather than using the DA conversion in the player and sending it via stereo RCA outputs. However, I bet the difference is much less with more modern equipment). With uncompressed PCM soundtracks there are no extra steps so no big deal.

There should be no difference between the TrueHD source and the PCM conversion. Thus there should be absolutely no difference between bitstreaming the TrueHD and bitstreaming the converted PCM. The only issue I can think of would be latency, but I doubt there's much (if any) difference.

The reason you notice a difference with your CD player is that you're talking about a digital source being sent digitally (one D-to-A conversion total) vs sending analog (D-to-A, A-to-D, D-to-A for 3 total conversions).

The reason you notice a difference with your CD player is that you're talking about a digital source being sent digitally (one D-to-A conversion total) vs sending analog (D-to-A, A-to-D, D-to-A for 3 total conversions).

Why would it be 3 conversions? The receiver is simply amplifying the analog audio, not redigitizing it. The only difference is where the D-to-A conversion is taking place, the player or the receiver. He probably hears a difference because the receiver has better DACs. Am I missing something here?

I understant that this player will support 1080p/24 for both formats. What I do not understand is all the benifits of this. I do not have a panel that supports 1080p/24. Is this something that is going to be missed if I can not utilize this? Will it be neccessary to upgrade the panel?

I understant that this player will support 1080p/24 for both formats. What I do not understand is all the benifits of this. I do not have a panel that supports 1080p/24. Is this something that is going to be missed if I can not utilize this? Will it be neccessary to upgrade the panel?

In your case, it isn't important at all.

If you are sensitive to (or just want to remove) telecine judder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecine#Telecine_judder), a panel that accepts 24fps AND displays it at a multiple of 24fps will accomplish this.

However, in this generation of displays, the second component is still fairly rare. Most displays do some interpolation or telecine anyway on 24fps signal. Some of the rare exceptions are the Pioneer plasmas, Sony A3000 SXRDs & FPs, and Sony XBR4/5 LCDs.

I'd say your best bet is to get good source components that can do native 1080p24 and when you upgrade your display make sure it displays 24fps at a multiple of 24.

Why would it be 3 conversions? The receiver is simply amplifying the analog audio, not redigitizing it. The only difference is where the D-to-A conversion is taking place, the player or the receiver. He probably hears a difference because the receiver has better DACs. Am I missing something here?

Most AVRs do their signal processing digitally. To use bass management, speaker distances, artificial sound fields, etc requires the signal be converted to digital first. True, there often is a pure analog path available as well (called "Direct" mode on my receiver).

There are also the source DACs to consider, and any noise that could get on the analog line between the source and the receiver. Remember, any noise that enters the signal before the receiver will be amplified by the receiver!

Why would it be 3 conversions? The receiver is simply amplifying the analog audio, not redigitizing it. The only difference is where the D-to-A conversion is taking place, the player or the receiver. He probably hears a difference because the receiver has better DACs. Am I missing something here?

nope, you are correct. You would only redigitize if you needed to to some more processing on the audio.

I spoke with Crutchfield and they are NOT taking any pre-orders and said the latest they were told by the company is it will be at least late Jan or late Feb 2008 before units begin to ship. The person I spoke with said he wouldn't be surprised if they don't see it before Mar or Apr 2008 and wasn't sure what was going on or why.

I spoke with Crutchfield and they are NOT taking any pre-orders and said the latest they were told by the company is it will be at least late Jan or late Feb 2008 before units begin to ship. The person I spoke with said he wouldn't be surprised if they don't see it before Mar or Apr 2008 and wasn't sure what was going on or why.
Wow...something must really be up! I don't know how much longer I can hold out. January...fine. Late Feb or later...ouch!

Does anyone have a backup plan? Do we know when a comparably equipped player will be available?

I spoke with Crutchfield and they are NOT taking any pre-orders and said the latest they were told by the company is it will be at least late Jan or late Feb 2008 before units begin to ship. The person I spoke with said he wouldn't be surprised if they don't see it before Mar or Apr 2008 and wasn't sure what was going on or why.

Wow...something must really be up! I don't know how much longer I can hold out. January...fine. Late Feb or later...ouch!

While it would be nice to actually here some "official" news, I dont know if we can hold much faith in a CSRs "knowledge". While Crutchfield is beeter known, I still am going to go on the news from Samsung until something else is released from them. We have all been through the ups and downs with the online retailers "news and updates". Lately all of them have been pretty unreliable as far as dates go.

Does anyone have a backup plan? Do we know when a comparably equipped player will be available?

No backup plan here, unless the BH200 has a Reon.

So they send demo units out for testing in midsummer '07, yet the actual product may not show until spring '08 ?
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreat :mad:

So they send demo units out for testing in midsummer '07, yet the actual product may not show until spring '08 ?
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreat :mad:

Amazon is still showing my DELIVERY Date
to me of January 3.

Does anyone have a backup plan? Do we know when a comparably equipped player will be available?

Separates. :) Even though I am a strong proponent of dual format players too, I am not waiting any longer. I took the BB A3 deal 2 weeks ago, and I'm looking for a similar deal on a cheap BD player in between now and Christmas.

...and I'm looking for a similar deal on a cheap BD player in between now and Christmas.
That's the crux of it. $378 seems to be as good as it gets on Black Friday (for an obsolete player at that), which is generally the day the best prices one can find through Christmas.

Does anyone have a backup plan? Do we know when a comparably equipped player will be available?


My new 1080p sxrd will be in a couple weeks with a new 120" wide 'scope' screen. I will not wait once it's up, if the sammy is ready, I'm buying, if it ain't , getting the onkyo 805 ,panny bd30, tosh a35, sell the denon 3806, I really want the 1080p/24 and all the advanced codecs.

That back up plan will add about $500 over just getting the sammy, but, really, I'm getting too old to just keep waiting.

Does anyone have a backup plan? Do we know when a comparably equipped player will be available?

Watching reruns of Dancing with the Stars on my HD DVR. Some folks are too old to wait, I'm too old to get bunched... :D

My backup plan ... I just purchased a Toshiba XA2 (upgraded to FW 2.7) from Amazon ($480) and a Panasonic BD30 from BB ($500). Since it's the holiday season, both stores accept returns until 1/30. If the 5000 is available by then, I may return these two players and purchase the 5000. Otherwise, I'll stick w/ the two players until a $400-$500 universal player is available. For HDMI SACD, DVD-A and DivX, I bought the Oppo 980H from Amazon ($170).

That's the crux of it. $378 seems to be as good as it gets on Black Friday (for an obsolete player at that), which is generally the day the best prices one can find through Christmas.

I just got an email with BB's Thanksgiving ad & they are selling the Samsung BD-P1400 & the Sony BDP-S300 for $399. They are giving a $100 gift card when you buy the Sony - so that makes it a net $300 for the Sony.

http://bestbuy.shoplocal.com/bestbuy/default.aspx?action=entry&pretailerid=-99824&siteid=156&adref=header&h=488&ref=56&loc=01&storeID=2413033

The Tosh A-3 is also $199, but CC & CompUSA also had it for $199 all this week. I am tempted to get the A3 & Sony S-300 for a net total of $500. The only thing stopping me is all the complaints I have read about the Sony & I would need to get a HDMI switch box (or buy a new AVR - leaning toward the Yammy 661) since my AVR has no HDMI inputs. My TV HDMI input is limited to 1080i (mits 62627), so I don't need a 1080p input - but I do want a player that does a good job upconverting SD - which is why I am waiting on the Samsung BD-UP5000..... but $500 is tempting!

i've waiting this long, and i'm not upgrading my pre/pro. so i continue to wait until a player of either format (or dual format) can decode lossless audio in the player and send it out (well) via analog. a reon chip for upscaling standard dvd's would be nice too.

that is not a backup plan, it is just the plan in general ;)

Who here is smart enough to come up with a device that would take HDMI in and output either a 5.1 and/or 7.1 analog output? I tried to Google for something that would work. The only thing I found was a Geffen forum and there seemed to be no hardware forthcoming. Seems pretty reasonable to me. All you would need are some connectors, DACs and a box. But I may be over simpifying things.

As an expensive pre/pro owner, I am not going to be upgrading anytime soon, so i would be willing to spend a few hundred dollars on a device that would let me turn HDMI into something the processor could use.

If there is something already out there, I would love to check it out.

You guys talking about purchasing more than one player because you can't wait....the ONLY combination that comes close to equaling the capabilities of the BD-UP5000 is the HD-XA2 and the Panasonic BD-30 (or the PS3 if you want a game console and believe that Sony will eventually update it to 1.1).

EDIT - actually, there is no combination that will work, because the only BD players that have analog outs are not 1.1 profile nor can they decode DTS-HD.

If you have a "high-end" pre-pro, you will just have to wait for a high end DF-player to come out, whenever that is.

Who here is smart enough to come up with a device that would take HDMI in and output either a 5.1 and/or 7.1 analog output?.... But I may be over simpifying things.....



If it were that simple, you would think that all of those "high end" manufacturers would have future-proofed their expensive pre-pros a little better.

I would think the manufacturers would prefer not to solve the problem once and for all, but would prefer to sell you all new equipment every few years.

I would think the manufacturers would prefer not to solve the problem once and for all, but would prefer to sell you all new equipment every few years.

Yep.

That's why I'm more interested in a device that outputs analog. Its not like buying a HDMI preamp is going to be the end of it. They'll come out with something else in a few years. Stick with analog and you are somewhat future proofed.

lossless 7.1 audio, how much more advanced can it get really? ;)

i've waiting this long, and i'm not upgrading my pre/pro. so i continue to wait until a player of either format (or dual format) can decode lossless audio in the player and send it out (well) via analog. a reon chip for upscaling standard dvd's would be nice too.

that is not a backup plan, it is just the plan in general ;)

Sounds like the Toshiba XA2 is what you're looking for. It's analog outputs sound fantastic and even include user adjustments. It can decode Dolby TrueHD and DD+ and convert them to analog. Also has the Reon for upscaling. It can't decode DTS HD MA but that format is still a no-show on domestic releases.

Who here is smart enough to come up with a device that would take HDMI in and output either a 5.1 and/or 7.1 analog output? I tried to Google for something that would work. The only thing I found was a Geffen forum and there seemed to be no hardware forthcoming. Seems pretty reasonable to me. All you would need are some connectors, DACs and a box. But I may be over simpifying things.

As an expensive pre/pro owner, I am not going to be upgrading anytime soon, so i would be willing to spend a few hundred dollars on a device that would let me turn HDMI into something the processor could use.

If there is something already out there, I would love to check it out.

Have you considered players that have multi channel analog outputs? Some of them sound quite good!

Well, that helps him if he only cares about HD-DVD. The problem with BD is they still haven't gotten their heads out of their asses after 1.5 years. We have to wait for a dual-format player to get features that ALL BD players should have had since the get-go. Pathetic.

If you only have one 5.1/7.1 input on your pre/pro or receiver, having seperate players would require soomething to take multiple HDMI inputs and output analog.

You guys talking about purchasing more than one player because you can't wait....the ONLY combination that comes close to equaling the capabilities of the BD-UP5000 is the HD-XA2 and the Panasonic BD-30 (or the PS3 if you want a game console and believe that Sony will eventually update it to 1.1).

I don't actually need all the capabilities the Samsung 5000 will have. I'd just like a dual format player. Until then, even cheap separates will fulfill my needs.

Also, there is an Amazon vote thing going on now where the Samsung 1400 will be available for somewhere between $150 and $250.

Kevin, as a fellow Lex owner, how do you plan on handling the audio in?

Also, there is an Amazon vote thing going on now where the Samsung 1400 will be available for somewhere between $150 and $250.

Don't hold your breath. The Samsung is in third place, only the item that wins the popular vote will be offered.

Sounds like the Toshiba XA2 is what you're looking for. It's analog outputs sound fantastic and even include user adjustments. It can decode Dolby TrueHD and DD+ and convert them to analog. Also has the Reon for upscaling. It can't decode DTS HD MA but that format is still a no-show on domestic releases.

i've considered that and it might be the way i end up going. i would like the dts-hd ma decoding in the player (and the ability to play BR discs would be nice, since i rent at blockbuster and that's all they carry), so i'm keeping my fingers crossed this sammy (or some other player down the road) resolves these issues for me.

If one didn't care about the Reon in the Samsung and one had an HDMI 1.3 pre-pro that could decode all of the formats, are there equally good choices? Single format players? Other dual-format players?

/jab

If one didn't care about the Reon in the Samsung and one had an HDMI 1.3 pre-pro that could decode all of the formats, are there equally good choices? Single format players? Other dual-format players?

/jab

The Panasonic DMP-BD30 Blu-ray Player together with the Toshiba HD-XA2 HD DVD Player will put you back about $1000 at Amazon, but I think that is the next best way to get HDMI bit stream audio for both Blu-ray and HD DVD. You can think of the Reon in the HD-XA2 as a freeby.

Not sure if you guys noticed the review in Sound & Vision magazine on the 5000. The unit was a pre-production model, but it had quite a few issues that seemed above and beyond what should have been for a unit like this (even though it was pre-production). Here are a few of the problems:

* Significant lip synch issues
* Clicking sound accompanying the audio
* Trouble playing some Sony BR discs
* Trouble playing some 20th Century Fox BR discs
* Need to reboot the player to play certain discs after playback stopped after 1 minute
* Significant jaggies on one of the reviewer's reference BR titles (MI III) on a new Pioneer display in 24p mode

Other than that, the reviewer felt there was potential, but wow, Samsung has a lot of work to do...hopefully that work has already been completed!

Wow! Bummer.

Thanks for the info. This information will cause me to be exceedingly careful in purchasing this. No pre-orders for me until reviews of the final production model are in. I highly suspect there will be many unresolved issues when it does hit the streets (that seems to be the theme now a-days).

Not sure if you guys noticed the review in Sound & Vision magazine on the 5000. The unit was a pre-production model, but it had quite a few issues that seemed above and beyond what should have been for a unit like this (even though it was pre-production). Here are a few of the problems:

* Significant lip synch issues
* Clicking sound accompanying the audio
* Trouble playing some Sony BR discs
* Trouble playing some 20th Century Fox BR discs
* Need to reboot the player to play certain discs after playback stopped after 1 minute
* Significant jaggies on one of the reviewer's reference BR titles (MI III) on a new Pioneer display in 24p mode

Other than that, the reviewer felt there was potential, but wow, Samsung has a lot of work to do...hopefully that work has already been completed!

i pray these issues are why samsung delayed the player. i want it asap but not under those circumstances.

We had hoped the Samsung Dual Format player would be available by now as well. We just purchased a Pioneer PRO-110FD plasma and the Denon AVR-3808CI receiver and we need some good HD source material (in addition to our HD cable box which looks surprisingly good!).

So we're thinking of purchasing something to tide us over during the wait for the Samsung. I've been searching on line for the cheapest HD-DVD or Blu-Ray player and the best deal I've found so far is this:

Costco has the Toshiba HD-D3 for $179 after a $70 mail-in rebate. The $179 also includes UPS standard shipping.
http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11248468&search=dvd%20player&Mo=6&cm_re=1_en-_-Top_Left_Nav-_-Top_search&lang=en-US&Nr=P_CatalogName:BC&Sp=S&N=0&whse=BC&Dx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntk=Text_Search&Dr=P_CatalogName:BC&Ne=4000000&D=dvd%20player&Ntt=dvd%20player&No=2&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Nty=1&topnav=&s=1

Is that a piece of junk? Or will it display a decent HD picture?

Not sure if you guys noticed the review in Sound & Vision magazine on the 5000. The unit was a pre-production model, but it had quite a few issues that seemed above and beyond what should have been for a unit like this (even though it was pre-production). Here are a few of the problems:

* Significant lip synch issues
* Clicking sound accompanying the audio
* Trouble playing some Sony BR discs
* Trouble playing some 20th Century Fox BR discs
* Need to reboot the player to play certain discs after playback stopped after 1 minute
* Significant jaggies on one of the reviewer's reference BR titles (MI III) on a new Pioneer display in 24p mode

Other than that, the reviewer felt there was potential, but wow, Samsung has a lot of work to do...hopefully that work has already been completed!


Does anyone know when this model was actually sent to them? The problems that were present (aside from the audio) were also problems with the Sammy 1400 and the new Blu-Ray discs. Some of the problems you listed above were "linked" as well. Samsung though as far as I know has fixed the issues with the last firmware update for the 1400. There are always going to be glitches and we are still at least a month from seeing this on store shelves, so I think Samsung has the time to fix the gitches. The reviewer also attributed most of the glitches to the early version of firmware that was on thier tester unit. Until we see a final production unit review though I think I am going to be less critical of these pre production reviews.

Sears has a Black Friday special on the Toshiba HD-A3 for $169.99 (normally $199). Maybe that would be a better option than the HD-D3?

Sears has a Black Friday special on the Toshiba HD-A3 for $169.99 (normally $199). Maybe that would be a better option than the HD-D3?

They are the exact same unit except the D3 also includes an HDMI cable in the box. :)

.......
Costco has the Toshiba HD-D3 for $179 after a $70 mail-in rebate. The $179 also includes UPS standard shipping.
http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11248468&search=dvd%20player&Mo=6&cm_re=1_en-_-Top_Left_Nav-_-Top_search&lang=en-US&Nr=P_CatalogName:BC&Sp=S&N=0&whse=BC&Dx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntk=Text_Search&Dr=P_CatalogName:BC&Ne=4000000&D=dvd%20player&Ntt=dvd%20player&No=2&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Nty=1&topnav=&s=1

Is that a piece of junk? Or will it display a decent HD picture?

Costco has it in the store with an instant rebate - no mail in required. Same net price of $179.99

This begs the question: Why would Samsung submit a sample of the duo player for review knowing it had so many flaws? An even scarier scenario is Samsung wasn't aware of all of them. I feel if Samsung knew of all of the flaws, they would have had a comment from someone at Samsung in the article stating these are known flaws and will be fixed in final version.

I have followed the "progress" of this player now for 3 months, and I'm not ready to bail on it just yet. But since already own the Toshiba A2, the PS3 black friday deals are starting to look good........

This begs the question: Why would Samsung submit a sample of the duo player for review knowing it had so many flaws? An even scarier scenario is Samsung wasn't aware of all of them. I feel if Samsung knew of all of the flaws, they would have had a comment from someone at Samsung in the article stating these are known flaws and will be fixed in final version.

I have followed the "progress" of this player now for 3 months, and I'm not ready to bail on it just yet. But since already own the Toshiba A2, the PS3 black friday deals are starting to look good........

Its a pre prduction unit and not the "final" shipping unit. I think Samsung was aware of the flaws that were brought up. THe only one they may have not known about is that Blu-Ray disc issues, as they just fixed the same issues with the 1400. I havent seen that many reviews of "pre-production" units that were as of yet still unfinished. We also dont know when the unit that was sent to them was "made", there are so many variables I think its better to wait until we can get a review on a final production model before we start doubting.

--snip-- THe only one they may have not known about is that Blu-Ray disc issues, as they just fixed the same issues with the 1400. --snip--.

As a 1400 owner, and frequent reader of the 1400 threads, I doubt you would find many 1400 owners agreeing with your statement...:(

As a 1400 owner, and frequent reader of the 1400 threads, I doubt you would find many 1400 owners agreeing with your statement...:(

+1

Not sure if you guys noticed the review in Sound & Vision magazine on the 5000. The unit was a pre-production model, but it had quite a few issues that seemed above and beyond what should have been for a unit like this (even though it was pre-production). Here are a few of the problems:

* Significant lip synch issues
* Clicking sound accompanying the audio
* Trouble playing some Sony BR discs
* Trouble playing some 20th Century Fox BR discs
* Need to reboot the player to play certain discs after playback stopped after 1 minute
* Significant jaggies on one of the reviewer's reference BR titles (MI III) on a new Pioneer display in 24p mode

Other than that, the reviewer felt there was potential, but wow, Samsung has a lot of work to do...hopefully that work has already been completed!

Sounds like most of that could be taken care of with a firmware update. I'm pretty confident that most of those problems wont make it to the final production players.

Even with the preproduction issues I bet it will sell out (if it hasn't already) for first round of shipments. With other Blu-ray players firmware upgrades seem to be a fact of life. (HD DVD players too).

Even with the preproduction issues I bet it will sell out (if it hasn't already) for first round of shipments. With other Blu-ray players firmware upgrades seem to be a fact of life. (HD DVD players too).

TIM - I got my order in at Amazon who claims I
will have it on January 3.

TIM - I got my order in at Amazon who claims I
will have it on January 3.

That makes at least two of us :)

That makes at least two of us :)

Earlier Adopters we are http://www.rx8web.com/smilies/bouncy.gif

Earlier Adopters we are http://www.rx8web.com/smilies/bouncy.gif

With full basements of forgotten toys. I got chided by my wife for having 8 players hooked up and about 3 former Pio flagships stacked on a shelf. She doesn't get it ;)

With full basements of forgotten toys. I got chided by my wife for having 8 players hooked up and about 3 former Pio flagships stacked on a shelf. She doesn't get it ;)

I get ragged on for all my CRT projectors in the basement.

ANYBODY WANT SOME?

I get ragged on for all my CRT projectors in the basement.

ANYBODY WANT SOME?

Got a Sony G90 down there? :D

Sorry guys. new to this thread. What are the audio issues that someone spoke about above?
I would need to use the players 7.1 analog outputs for my setup. My Lexicon pre/pro has a 7.1 analog input that I currently use for my HD-A1's 5.1 outputs.
Does this player output lossless True HD and DTS HD MA via the 7.1 analog outputs?

Got a Sony G90 down there? :D

Sorry guys. new to this thread. What are the audio issues that someone spoke about above?
I would need to use the players 7.1 analog outputs for my setup. My Lexicon pre/pro has a 7.1 analog input that I currently use for my HD-A1's 5.1 outputs.
Does this player output lossless True HD and DTS HD MA via the 7.1 analog outputs?

it's supposed to (although MA will likely need a firmware upgrade in the future to do so).

do you use a Y cable to convert the 5.1 from the player to 7.1 for your pre/pro?

i'm in the opposite situation. the sammy will output 7.1 analog and my anthem AVM20 is 5.1, and i'm trying to figure out the best way to handle that. i'm thinking a Y cable combining each add'l surround speaker down to 1.

do you use a Y cable to convert the 5.1 from the player to 7.1 for your pre/pro?.

NO! You output 5.1, period. If your pre/pro has the capability to extract the 7.1 from the 5.1 signal, you do that.


the sammy will output 7.1 analog and my anthem AVM20 is 5.1, and i'm trying to figure out the best way to handle that. i'm thinking a Y cable combining each add'l surround speaker down to 1.

DOUBLE NO! You output 5.1 into the AVM20, period. No y-cables. Eeesh.

If I see it I'll buy it, what was the amazon price again? I might spend my money on a canon HG10 while I'm waiting or I just found this in another related thread
"Thank you for your recent online purchase with OnSale.

Although we try to satisfy our customers in every way possible, we apologize that the item you ordered:

1 U CSE 07295840 1 BD-UP5000 BLU-RAY AND HD DVD DUO PLYR SAMSUNG CE 779.99 10/26 Backordered

is on backorder. The reason for this delay is that the product is constrained and in great demand from the manufacturer. We are eagerly anticipating the arrival of our inventory so that we may fulfill our obligations to you, our valued customer. We are expecting to receive our inventory approximately on November 30th of 2007 and I have already changed your shipping method to FedEx priority overnight for free.. Please be advised that this time frame was given to us by the manufacturer and is subject to change.

Please let me know if you have any additional questions. Thank you for your patience.

Regards,
Hana Aparejo
Customer Service Representative
Customer Service Department
TEL: 1.888.760.0300
FAX: 310.807.6727"

Is this true I really hope so.

do you use a Y cable to convert the 5.1 from the player to 7.1 for your pre/pro?

No
I let my Lexicon do its magic converting the HD-A1's 5.1 analog into 7.1. The Lex has no HDMI input so I MUST use analog.

Kevin, as a fellow Lex owner, how do you plan on handling the audio in?

Core DD/DTS, for now. I plan to upgrade to either the Integra 9.8/Onkyo 885 or the NAD T175 when it comes out.



Don't hold your breath. The Samsung is in third place, only the item that wins the popular vote will be offered.

Valkrie- The Samsung has to win to get the $149 deal. Even if it doesn't win, Amazon will sell 500 of them at $249. Look in the FAQ they have there.

NO! You output 5.1, period. If your pre/pro has the capability to extract the 7.1 from the 5.1 signal, you do that.



DOUBLE NO! You output 5.1 into the AVM20, period. No y-cables. Eeesh.

thanks! so there will be a method to output 5.1 via analog from the sammy even though it's 7.1 capable?

thanks! so there will be a method to output 5.1 via analog from the sammy even though it's 7.1 capable?

I'm wondering if it's just a matter of defeating the RR and and RL channels.

thanks! so there will be a method to output 5.1 via analog from the sammy even though it's 7.1 capable?

Most players let you setup your speaker configuration for the analog outs - you would just turn off the surround "back" speakers. I imagine the 5000 will at least allow that adjustment. Of course, I'm also hoping for speaker distance/delay, channel level, and crossover adjustment settings as well - but based on the review samples and past Samsung Blu-ray players, I have my doubts.

Still, I'm really excited about this upcoming "duo" player. I hope it's a big success and will prompt other manufacturers to follow suit. (Pioneer anyone?)

There is a link to the OM on Samsungs site -
Not sure if it has been posted yet.

http://downloadcenter.samsung.com/content/UM/200711/20071120103100328_477A_BD-UP5000_XAA-BM_1119.pdf

Here it is ...

Excellent find. Thanks for the link, OU'82'2!

Yes it up, Thanks

Just noticed on the bottom of page ten it states "When playing a Dolby TrueHD disc, audio will only be heard over the front left and right speakers." Will it not decode multichannel TrueHD?

According to the manual, the 5000 does not support 24fps for standard DVDs. That is one drawback to trading in the XA2/BD30 combo for this player.

>>I get ragged on for all my CRT projectors in the basement.
ANYBODY WANT SOME?<<

I want one of those beautiful Mitsubishi one-piece front projectors from the early 1980's - the ones with the pull-out mirror, but when closed up looked like a china cabinet or something. I'd pull out the CRT's and put in an LCD or DLP projector and use it as a self-contained front-projection HDTV.

Just noticed on the bottom of page ten it states "When playing a Dolby TrueHD disc, audio will only be heard over the front left and right speakers." Will it not decode multichannel TrueHD?

It does sound that way :( As far as i know HD-DVD only requires TrueHD 2.0 for certification, could they really have left it as 2.0?

I also noticed this

To play a twin-format HD DVD disc, you should select HD DVD or DVD before inserting the disc.
This can be enabled only for a twin-format HD DVD disc.

Does this mean twin HD-DVD (triple layer) discs have been tested and are working?

It does sound that way :( As far as i know HD-DVD only requires TrueHD 2.0 for certification, could they really have left it as 2.0?

I also noticed this



Does this mean twin HD-DVD (triple layer) discs have been tested and are working?


I think they are referring to HD/DVD combo discs....

Just noticed on the bottom of page ten it states "When playing a Dolby TrueHD disc, audio will only be heard over the front left and right speakers." Will it not decode multichannel TrueHD?

If that's the case, that will certainly be a deal breaker for me. :(

According to the manual, the 5000 does not support 24fps for standard DVDs. That is one drawback to trading in the XA2/BD30 combo for this player.

There are no benefits in playing DVD in 24FPS that will only bring issues.

Same here. No full channel Dolby TrueHD combined with only possible upgrade to the vaporware codec known as DTS HD MA = Deal breaker.

Now what if one's receiver supports bitstream and can decode TrueHD natively? Should be in the clear, right?

This is a little surprising.

Just noticed on the bottom of page ten it states "When playing a Dolby TrueHD disc, audio will only be heard over the front left and right speakers." Will it not decode multichannel TrueHD?

I thought, naw, that couldn't be true, so I went and looked... write next to that little pencil icon. Well, thank goodness for HBR bitstream....

Didn't the S and V review state it could do TrueHD multichannel PCM in the player?? That is weird.. there is seriously alot of misinformation out there regarding this player.. i may just get a PS3 and a HDA30 or XA2 and be done with it...

Didn't the S and V review state it could do TrueHD multichannel PCM in the player?? That is weird.. there is seriously alot of misinformation out there regarding this player.. i may just get a PS3 and a HDA30 or XA2 and be done with it...


You know, I've been anxiously awaiting the 5000 since September and even though it's finally getting closer to release(supposedly) I'm starting to think I might just be better off going with the Playstation 3/XA2 combo after all. It would require upgrading to a HDMI receiver(I'd get the Pioneer Elite VSX-94TXH), but in the long run it might be worth it. I'd have arguably the two best stand-alone players on the market for either format and a new receiver with all of the features my Pioneer Elite 49TX is lacking. All along I've thought the 5000 would be the ultimate solution, but I grow more skeptical each day about what it will and won't be able to do when it's finally released. I haven't ruled it out yet, but that XA2/PS3 combo is looking pretty good.

So now we arent even sure it will decode 5.1 THD? Much less 5.1 DTS HDMA?

This is getting worse and worse. This is becoming quite the joke.

There are also no speaker distance settings for the analog outs.

It really seems that this player is optimized for an HDMI 1.3 player with all of the advanced audio processing taking place on the AVR. If you have such an AVR this player might be the ticket. Otherwise, maybe not...

It really seems that this player is optimized for an HDMI 1.3 player with all of the advanced audio processing taking place on the AVR. If you have such an AVR this player might be the ticket. Otherwise, maybe not...

If it will output multi-channel TrueHD I agree, but if it's only 2 channel via both analog and HDMI then it's a no go for me.

If it will output multi-channel TrueHD I agree, but if it's only 2 channel via both analog and HDMI then it's a no go for me.
That would be utterly ridiculous. I guess it comes down to sending the TrueHD via bitstream untouched so the AVR can handle it. Question is will this bistream include the back channel information or just the center, left and right?

There are no benefits in playing DVD in 24FPS that will only bring issues.

So SD DVDs are not 24fps?

So SD DVDs are not 24fps?

No.

the manual is up on samsung's website as a PDF file
it supports 24FPS dolby digital and True HD & dts digital surround.
the manual says it supports 1.0 and theres no mention of 1.1 but i'm assuming that its a pre-retail manual and since it has the secondary decoders for HDDVD it will support 1.1

http://www.samsung.com/us/support/download/supportDown.do?model_nm=BD-UP5000/XAA&mType=UM&vType=L

If it will output multi-channel TrueHD I agree, but if it's only 2 channel via both analog and HDMI then it's a no go for me.
Doesn't it just send TrueHD via bit stream HDMI to the AVR? Again, you would need an AVR that can decode TrueHD or any other advanced audio sent via bit stream from the BD-P5000.

Doesn't it just send TrueHD via bit stream HDMI to the AVR? .

Honestly I don't know. Hopefully there will be a clarification on this before the player is released.

TrueHD outputs to Left & Right speakers ONLY would be a real show stopper for me too. I was under the impression that this puppy did it all. Will await it's release and decide then. One would think that the reviewers at Sound & Vision would have mentioned this major shortfall in it's review.

I'm tempted with simply buying the Panny 30K and getting an hdmi splitter for my A1. Of course I'd have to buy a new AVR with hdmi 1.3b! What's $1200.00!

lmao, 1.3b is out now? What does it offer over a?!

lmao, 1.3b is out now? What does it offer over a?!

1.3b is a test spec now with no chips available in any appreciable quantities.

****, I dunno, but it's getting to be a drag having to upgrade your AVR for each new iteration of hdmi.

There's more info here...

www.hdmi.org

You can always Google it.

Usually dragging doesn't help as it's a hardware revision (so you need to drag in a new AVR :o)

1.3a is the current approved standard.

ridiculous. i'm not getting rid of my anthem avm20 until i can afford a statement d2.

either this player decodes the lossless formats in the player and outputs them via 5.1 analog, or it's out for me.

I find it funny that we are talking about this player not outputting TrueHD via PCM... but I was almost driven from the forums for suggesting that I was going to wait for a 1.3 receiver last year.

Now I have the Onkyo 905... so all I need (or want) is HBR for TrueHD and DTS MA. If those are there... this is my machine!... If not, I will get a Sammy 1400, and save up for an XA2 (or wait for the XA3... or whatever is coming next.) Is the A35 supposed to be the successor to the XA2, or is there something missing?

I have an A1, so I don't need a HD DVD player... I'm just trying to go neutral... so I haven't looked into these new players.

1.3b is a test spec now with no chips available in any appreciable quantities.
Thank you, hadn't heard of its presence until now...no need to jump the gun just yet with not even an apparent supported receiver available yet.

save up for an XA2 (or wait for the XA3... or whatever is coming next.) Is the A35 supposed to be the successor to the XA2, or is there something missing?


get the A35, I went from the XA2 to the A35 and the later is a better player if you are using all HDMI and no analog audio, build quality is much less than the XA2 but with all HDMI connection that is not a concern, I personally think the 1080i video output is better by a slight margain over the XA2

-Gary

Strange. Most people like the XA2 over the A35.

Strange. Most people like the XA2 over the A35.

I do (but not had a A35 like Gary). If you need the video processing (mostly for SD) go for the XA2. If not, save $s on the A35. The real flagship successor hasn't been put out yet, but note the guts of the new Onkyo HD player is an XA2.


Back on topic, is there any news on TrueHD (all channels) supposed to work on HBR bitstream.

I do (but not had a A35 like Gary). If you need the video processing (mostly for SD) go for the XA2. If not, save $s on the A35. The real flagship successor hasn't been put out yet, but note the guts of the new Onkyo HD player is an XA2.


Back on topic, is there any news on TrueHD (all channels) supposed to work on HBR bitstream.

If the BD-UP5000 does not do internal decoding - I'll
either CANCEL my order or send it back as soon as I
prove that is the case.

If the BD-UP5000 does not do internal decoding - I'll
either CANCEL my order or send it back as soon as I
prove that is the case.

Hank, the "heads up" manual states the TrueHD is only 2 channel for internal decoding. Disappointing as more and more discs I play have a TrueHD option.

Hank, the "heads up" manual states the TrueHD is only 2 channel for internal decoding. Disappointing as more and more discs I play have a TrueHD option.

I KNOW - I saw that - but it is still IMPOSSIBLE to BEELIEVE.

Does this mean twin HD-DVD (triple layer) discs have been tested and are working?

It is referring to double layer twin discs which have been out for a while. They have a single SD layer and a single HD layer on the same side and haven't been used much.

Hank, the "heads up" manual states the TrueHD is only 2 channel for internal decoding. Disappointing as more and more discs I play have a TrueHD option.

THIS LINK (http://reviews.cnet.com/video-players-and-recorders/samsung-bd-up5000/4505-6463_7-32553618.html) Says

Editors' note: This post has been updated to reflect information
from a Samsung representative that the BD-UP5000 will have onboard
decoding for all high resolution audio formats, including DTS-HD Master
Audio.

http://www.dvdfile.com/news/special_report/production_a_z/3_2_pulldown.htm

This article states that film DVDs are encoded at 480i24. If so, wouldn't upconversion from 480i24 to 1080p24 yield the best output for viewing SD DVDs on a 24Hz-capable TV? The Toshiba XA2 supports this output for SD DVDs, which is why I'm curious about whether/not the 5000 does, too.

THIS LINK (http://reviews.cnet.com/video-players-and-recorders/samsung-bd-up5000/4505-6463_7-32553618.html) Says

Editors' note: This post has been updated to reflect information
from a Samsung representative that the BD-UP5000 will have onboard
decoding for all high resolution audio formats, including DTS-HD Master
Audio.

I think Samsung should update their manuals to say what will be included. The link mentions the addition of the DTS hi res decoding, but does not address TrueHD being more than 2.0. The good news is TrueHD is included, the bad news is that it's crippled to 2 channel decoding.

*sigh* if it is only going to be 2 channel TrueHD output then this player is useless for me. I might as well spend the money on a Integra 9.8 Prepro which I was trying to avoid. I wanted 5.1 analog outputs for all formats so I can keep my current prepro.

Hopefully Samsung will clarify this in the very near future so we'll know what this player does with TrueHD(2-channel or multi-channel). That's going to be the biggest factor in deciding whether or not I purchase the 5000.

I find it funny that we are talking about this player not outputting TrueHD via PCM... but I was almost driven from the forums for suggesting that I was going to wait for a 1.3 receiver last year.

Now I have the Onkyo 905... so all I need (or want) is HBR for TrueHD and DTS MA. If those are there... this is my machine!... If not, I will get a Sammy 1400, and save up for an XA2 (or wait for the XA3... or whatever is coming next.) Is the A35 supposed to be the successor to the XA2, or is there something missing?

I have an A1, so I don't need a HD DVD player... I'm just trying to go neutral... so I haven't looked into these new players.

+1
I have the onkyo 705 so the only reason I was thinking of getting this instead of my recently purchased XA2 was to retire my PS3 and have bitstreaming of all audio from BD and HDDVD and still keep the REON. So although its very strange it would only decode TrueHD to 2 channels when it originally claimed to be able to decode DTSHD-MA (which no one does yet), I don't really care with my setup...the rest of you w/o 1.3 AVRs should complain heavily even now so they change it before release.

http://downloadcenter.samsung.com/content/UM/200711/20071120103100328_477A_BD-UP5000_XAA-BM_1119.pdf

Here it is ...

I think Samsung should update their manuals to say what will be included. The link mentions the addition of the DTS hi res decoding, but does not address TrueHD being more than 2.0. The good news is TrueHD is included, the bad news is that it's crippled to 2 channel decoding.

If it's indeed crippled to 2.0 as the manual says, there's no good news. Why bother including TrueHD at 2.0? Just to meet the spec? I don't see why the spec would set the bar so low. I'd prefer basic DD in 5.1!

Still, my plan is to get a Denon AVR-3808CI shortly after getting this player, so I can let the Denon decode all the new audio formats. As long as bitstreaming is working properly for all formats, I'm still on board for this player.

But for those of you not planning to upgrade your receivers, I don't blame you for canceling your orders. If this 2.0-only thing is really true, what a stupid move!!

If it's indeed crippled to 2.0 as the manual says, there's no good news.

I agree 100% --- But I think something is wrong.

I have the OFFICIAL Spec Sheet - I don't remember
where I got it - but it clains 8 channel uncompressed
internal decoding via a FW update.

The other thing it claims is 7.1 Analog - Decoding
Outputs.

Both of those claims mean the decoding ability
has to be there. My guess is the MANUAL says 2
channel - because that is what it is WITHOUT the
FW update.

Does anyone know if the optical/coaxial digital output from the BD-UP5000 is 2 channel or surround (5.1) ? I saw the blurbs posted here about the TrueHD output being (possibly) 2 channel only. And I read through the Samsung 5000 PDF brouchure and the PDF manual, but neither are specific about how many channels are actually in the digital output stream -- other than the brief comment on page 28, "When using this connection, discs with LPCM audio soundtracks will only be heard over the front two channels." But that's just because disks with just stereo PCM are in LPCM format (duh).

I ask because my HTPC has the digital inputs, but no multichannel analog inputs. My HTPC drives my 5.1 digital powered speaker configuration. I had considered just getting a HD DVD drive and a BD drive for my HTPC, but the Sammy 5000 box looks like a better solution. My projector will act as the switcher between the 5000's YPrPb signal and my HTPC's DVI signal.

Thanks for any insights,

Scott

Does anyone know if the optical/coaxial digital output from the BD-UP5000 is 2 channel or surround (5.1) ? I saw the blurbs posted here about the TrueHD output being (possibly) 2 channel only. And I read through the Samsung 5000 PDF brouchure and the PDF manual, but neither are specific about how many channels are actually in the digital output stream -- other than the brief comment on page 28, "When using this connection, discs with LPCM audio soundtracks will only be heard over the front two channels." But that's just because disks with just stereo PCM are in LPCM format (duh).

I ask because my HTPC has the digital inputs, but no multichannel analog inputs. My HTPC drives my 5.1 digital powered speaker configuration. I had considered just getting a HD DVD drive and a BD drive for my HTPC, but the Sammy 5000 box looks like a better solution. My projector will act as the switcher between the 5000's YPrPb signal and my HTPC's DVI signal.

Thanks for any insights,

Scott

The optical/SPDIF will send multichannel Dolby (& DTS) legacy formats, just not any of the hi def newer formats, like DTS-HD, DTS-MA, Dolby True HD, so you will get "downmixed" formats like everyday SD DVDs & players (but at a higher bandwidth, which doesn't hurt).

Does anyone know if the optical/coaxial digital output from the BD-UP5000 is 2 channel or surround (5.1) ? I saw the blurbs posted here about the TrueHD output being (possibly) 2 channel only. And I read through the Samsung 5000 PDF brouchure and the PDF manual, but neither are specific about how many channels are actually in the digital output stream -- other than the brief comment on page 28, "When using this connection, discs with LPCM audio soundtracks will only be heard over the front two channels." But that's just because disks with just stereo PCM are in LPCM format (duh).

I ask because my HTPC has the digital inputs, but no multichannel analog inputs. My HTPC drives my 5.1 digital powered speaker configuration. I had considered just getting a HD DVD drive and a BD drive for my HTPC, but the Sammy 5000 box looks like a better solution. My projector will act as the switcher between the 5000's YPrPb signal and my HTPC's DVI signal.

Thanks for any insights,

Scott

if it wont do 5.1 DD over optical/coax that would be a huge step back wards. i don't believe they would cripple the player that much.
but it wont do true hd or dts master over those cables.

I'm in a similar quandary though. my avr doesnt appear to have 5.1 analogue inputs and definitely doesn't have hdmi. never the less i still want this player. i plan on getting a new AVR sometime.

If it's indeed crippled to 2.0 as the manual says, there's no good news. Why bother including TrueHD at 2.0? Just to meet the spec? I don't see why the spec would set the bar so low. I'd prefer basic DD in 5.1!

Still, my plan is to get a Denon AVR-3808CI shortly after getting this player, so I can let the Denon decode all the new audio formats. As long as bitstreaming is working properly for all formats, I'm still on board for this player.

But for those of you not planning to upgrade your receivers, I don't blame you for canceling your orders. If this 2.0-only thing is really true, what a stupid move!!
So you're saying we're in the clear if we're utilizing bitstream information in such an advanced AVR? There's no chance said bitstream will only include information for only the front channels?

I'm in a similar quandary though. my avr doesnt appear to have 5.1 analogue inputs and definitely doesn't have hdmi. never the less i still want this player. i plan on getting a new AVR sometime.

hate to hijack this thread but..........it is important for me if i plan on getting the 5000

just found the denon archive for my avr. aparently i do have 6 analoge inputs

6 Channel Analog External Input (for DVD-Audio) with wideband (100 kHz) frequency response. front L/R, Center, Surround L/R, Subwoofer

however looking at the reciever itself i cant see them.
i know the picture is crappy but could yall check out this product sheet (photo at bottom) and maybe point them out.
http://usa.denon.com/avr683_productsheet.pdf
i'll see if i can find my manuals for it maybe it will tell which ones they are. but i dont see anything labeled as such on the reciever itself.

hate to hijack this thread but..........it is important for me if i plan on getting the 5000

just found the denon archive for my avr. aparently i do have 6 analoge inputs

6 Channel Analog External Input (for DVD-Audio) with wideband (100 kHz) frequency response. front L/R, Center, Surround L/R, Subwoofer

however looking at the reciever itself i cant see them.
i know the picture is crappy but could yall check out this product sheet (photo at bottom) and maybe point them out.
http://usa.denon.com/avr683_productsheet.pdf
i'll see if i can find my manuals for it maybe it will tell which ones they are. but i dont see anything labeled as such on the reciever itself.


It appears to be lower left rear, but you should really ask these questions in the AMPs, Receivers, and Processors Forum, where there is typically a thread on each receiver (do a forum search).

If it's indeed crippled to 2.0 as the manual says, there's no good news. Why bother including TrueHD at 2.0? Just to meet the spec? I don't see why the spec would set the bar so low. I'd prefer basic DD in 5.1!

Still, my plan is to get a Denon AVR-3808CI shortly after getting this player, so I can let the Denon decode all the new audio formats. As long as bitstreaming is working properly for all formats, I'm still on board for this player.

But for those of you not planning to upgrade your receivers, I don't blame you for canceling your orders. If this 2.0-only thing is really true, what a stupid move!!

The A1 was released with only 2.0 TrueHD. It was 'only a firmware upgrade away'. If this player will output HBR, I'm in... if it will require a firmware update... I will wait.

I am SERIOUSLY considering the 1400 because of the price. It's only $300+ and it will bitstream. I just don't want to explain to the wife why I need ANOTHER player... even if it would cost the same for the 1400 and the XA2... it's just a hastle explaining WHY I need two players...

So, is it possible that this thing is going to ship only being able to do TrueHD 2.0 and then require a firmware update to get multi-channel TrueHD? If so, that's a bit of a pain IMHO.

I just downloaded the user manual for this unit from Samsung's web site. According to the manual, this unit does not support DVD+R discs. This is a major issue for me. All of the home movies I transferred to disc are on DVD+R's. I guess I'll have to use my PC to copy everything over to DVD-R

So, is it possible that this thing is going to ship only being able to do TrueHD 2.0 and then require a firmware update to get multi-channel TrueHD? If so, that's a bit of a pain IMHO.

It is very possible. That is how the first HD DVD players shipped.

I just downloaded the user manual for this unit from Samsung's web site. According to the manual, this unit does not support DVD+R discs. This is a major issue for me. All of the home movies I transferred to disc are on DVD+R's. I guess I'll have to use my PC to copy everything over to DVD-R

Or wait and see if they play. Many times they do...

I just downloaded the user manual for this unit from Samsung's web site. According to the manual, this unit does not support DVD+R discs. This is a major issue for me. All of the home movies I transferred to disc are on DVD+R's. I guess I'll have to use my PC to copy everything over to DVD-R

This is my situation as well, but since DVD-R is vastly more compatible with the majority of existing players I don't see converting a few (in my case anyway) DVD+Rs to DVD-R (already in process as the all-in-one Samsung HT receiver/DVD changer that I have won't play the +R standard).

I'll use my unused +R's, strictly for burning data files as it is the +R file format that more closely matches the data formatting of hard drives, in fact it was conceived more as data storage than for DVD Video.

So, is it possible that this thing is going to ship only being able to do TrueHD 2.0 and then require a firmware update to get multi-channel TrueHD? If so, that's a bit of a pain IMHO.

You would think since this is Samsung's THRID GENERATION player
that by now - TrueHD would work without NEEDING a FW update.

But some much in this Combo player is NEW - it is probably like
starting at square one all over again.

It is very possible. That is how the first HD DVD players shipped.

Yeah, I had to do the firmware update on my A1 last year, but you'd think by now it would be ready to go out of the box. :(

i will bet my house on it that samsung will offer a "future firmware update" for this issue. just imagine how long samsung has been making sd dvd players and they still ship out their products before they are ready and then say it will be firmware updated. not only samsung, but almost every electronics manufacturer today will do this. and before the update is even complete, a new player is released. i wonder if half these companies even ever plan on releasing firmwares for dvd players.

Yeah, I had to do the firmware update on my A1 last year, but you'd think by now it would be ready to go out of the box. :(

I totally agree

I just downloaded the user manual for this unit from Samsung's web site. According to the manual, this unit does not support DVD+R discs. This is a major issue for me. All of the home movies I transferred to disc are on DVD+R's. I guess I'll have to use my PC to copy everything over to DVD-R

Or wait and see if they play. Many times they do...

All of my home movies are on Taiyo Yuden DVD+R discs also but I have them all written to changed booktype DVD-ROM using Benq QSuite 2.1 to do that. Now when you check them, they report they are DVD-ROM discs. Would DVD+R DVD's that are booktyped to DVD-ROM play on the new Samsung BD-UP500?

Originally Posted by Brent Madden
Yeah, I had to do the firmware update on my A1 last year, but you'd think by now it would be ready to go out of the box.


I totally agree

Since some of the fixes seem to only come up when new HD-DVDs come out, I can't help but wonder what's happening. Is it faulting mastering of the new movie releases that they're trying to fix or is there something actually wrong with the player.:confused:

This is my situation as well, but since DVD-R is vastly more compatible with the majority of existing players I don't see converting a few (in my case anyway) DVD+Rs to DVD-R (already in process as the all-in-one Samsung HT receiver/DVD changer that I have won't play the +R standard).

I'll use my unused +R's, strictly for burning data files as it is the +R file format that more closely matches the data formatting of hard drives, in fact it was conceived more as data storage than for DVD Video.


I'd do a little more research if I were you before writing off DVD+R media.

Use a free program such as Nero Write Speed or DVDInfoPro to check the quality of your burns.

http://www.cdspeed2000.com/

http://www.dvdinfopro.com/

Why is this important? Because if you don't start with a healthy burn (Burner plus compatibility with various brands of media play a big role), you may find yourself with unplayable discs not too far down the road. I personaly had to replace a couple hundred discs that went bad after a year or two (Ritek, BeAll and Vivistar brands). Fortunately for me, I still had much of the original material.

After doing a lot research, I've learned to use Taiyo Yuden and Verbatim premium media. I use DVD-R for DVDs I intend to share, and DVD+R for my private library. The DVD+R media burns with many less Pi/PO errors and always score the highest burn quality ratings.

Once you determine which brand/type of media burns best with your burner, you need only check randomly, and whenever you get a new batch of media.

You should read the following before storing important material:

http://www.mam-a.com/technology/Tech%20News/WSJ_Portals2.pdf

I don't mean to be a Wet Blanket about all of this, but I'd hate to see another forum member lose cherished home movies due to a faulty burn or inferior media brand.

I'd do a little more research if I were you before writing off DVD+R media.

Use a free program such as Nero Write Speed or DVDInfoPro to check the quality of your burns.

http://www.cdspeed2000.com/

http://www.dvdinfopro.com/

Why is this important? Because if you don't start with a healthy burn (Burner plus compatibility with various brands of media play a big role), you may find yourself with unplayable discs not too far down the road. I personaly had to replace a couple hundred discs that went bad after a year or two (Ritek, BeAll and Vivistar brands). Fortunately for me, I still had much of the original material.

After doing a lot research, I've learned to use Taiyo Yuden and Verbatim premium media. I use DVD-R for DVDs I intend to share, and DVD+R for my private library. The DVD+R media burns with many less Pi/PO errors and always score the highest burn quality ratings.

Once you determine which brand/type of media burns best with your burner, you need only check randomly, and whenever you get a new batch of media.

You should read the following before storing important material:

http://www.mam-a.com/technology/Tech%20News/WSJ_Portals2.pdf

I don't mean to be a Wet Blanket about all of this, but I'd hate to see another forum member lose cherished home movies due to a faulty burn or inferior media brand.
Thanks! Always good in researching things prior to making changes.

I've only got a handful of DVD+Rs and will hold off on any duplication until I've proven their viability on the BD-UP5000.

Good links and good articles!

Thanks,
Spence

I just downloaded the user manual for this unit from Samsung's web site. According to the manual, this unit does not support DVD+R discs. This is a major issue for me. All of the home movies I transferred to disc are on DVD+R's. I guess I'll have to use my PC to copy everything over to DVD-R


When the BD-P1000 first came out, the manual stated the same thing. And, it plays DVD+R discs just fine.

All of my home movies are on Taiyo Yuden DVD+R discs also but I have them all written to changed booktype DVD-ROM using Benq QSuite 2.1 to do that. Now when you check them, they report they are DVD-ROM discs. Would DVD+R DVD's that are booktyped to DVD-ROM play on the new Samsung BD-UP500?

Exactly what I do and I've played them on several players that claim they do not play +R media. When the booktype is set to DVD-ROM, I believe players think it is a regular pressed DVD as that is the type that is reported when looking at store-bought DVDs.

TY Media (as noted above) is really good. I see significantly lower error rates on this media than any other I have tried.

Anyway, my bet is that the +Rs will play both booktyped as -ROM and +R. We'll see one of these days...

Cheers,

Doug

if it wont do 5.1 DD over optical/coax that would be a huge step back wards. i don't believe they would cripple the player that much.
but it wont do true hd or dts master over those cables.

I'm in a similar quandary though. my avr doesnt appear to have 5.1 analogue inputs and definitely doesn't have hdmi. never the less i still want this player. i plan on getting a new AVR sometime.

They MUST do 5.1 DD/DTS over optical/coax to meet Blu-ray and HD-DVD certification. Since I see both logos on that faceplate, I assume they're at least doing that part right. :¬)

Blu-ray and HD DVD Audio Explained (http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Joshua_Zyber/High-Def_FAQ:_Blu-ray_and_HD_DVD_Audio_Explained/1064)


So you're saying we're in the clear if we're utilizing bitstream information in such an advanced AVR? There's no chance said bitstream will only include information for only the front channels?

The bitstream is the raw compressed information; it just sends along the whole thing in its original form. However, if you set it to output as PCM or via analog, then the data gets interpreted by the player and it seems you'll only get 2.0.


From the link above:
"TrueHD is an optional format on Blu-ray."
"Support for TrueHD up to at least 2 channels is mandatory on all HD DVD players, but the majority will support it all the way to 5.1."

So I guess I see how they got away with the 2.0 channel thing... stupid for both formats to make the specs so lax!


If all is well with bitstreaming every format, I'm getting this player ASAP. My heart's set on a Reon, and I never planned on using PCM conversion or the analog outs anyway. I guess my fall-back option will be the XA2 and some bitstream-capable BD player.

Acouple of interesting items. While in Best Buy yesterday there was actually a sticker on the shelf for the bd-up5000 for $799. On making an inquiry though, no stock was found or date of shipment given. Also for those that think Samsung is waiting for the bd/hddvd war to end, think again. The hddvd camp just paid $100 million to Dreamworks and $50 million to Paramount to produce HD-DVD discs so the war is far from over and in fact this should promote the release of this player

please limit your discussions to the Samsung player so the the thread can remain open

Thanks

I decided to take the plunge and order the sammy 5000. I saw several references to folks here ordering it through Amazon, but now the unit is just listed as "email when available" instead of "preorder" (and is a little hard to find on Amazon). Also, no ship date was listed.

So I ordered it from one call: $827 including next day FedEx. The lady I spoke with didn't know when they'd have them in stock. But I've had good luck with them in the past getting things early.

Does anyone have any insights on the pecking order of which store receives Samsung products earliest?

Scott

Has anyone heard from Robert at Value Electronics on this player?
He was the one who got the HD-A1 out before everyone else. And it included some free movies.

Well, Samsung has finally added the player to their Web site, so it should be forthcoming...

http://www.samsung.com/us/consumer/detail/detail.do?group=mp3audiovideo&type=blu_ray&subtype=duohdplayer&model_cd=BD-UP5000/XAA

Has anyone heard from Robert at Value Electronics on this player?
He was the one who got the HD-A1 out before everyone else. And it included some free movies.

Robert posted in another thread (the tracking thread I think) saying that he didn't expect to see any until January. I think your best bet for early ownership is going to be Best Buy or Circuit City.

Well, Samsung has finally added the player to their Web site, so it should be forthcoming...

http://www.samsung.com/us/consumer/detail/detail.do?group=mp3audiovideo&type=blu_ray&subtype=duohdplayer&model_cd=BD-UP5000/XAA

:D:D:D:D:D