I'm astounded by how difficult it is to play music files from a computer through a stereo and have it sound good. Both Macs and PCs have lousy built-in DACs. I bought the HK AVR 645 partly because of its USB input. It sounded pretty great to me, even for lousy 128 kbps MP3s, until it stopped working. Hopefully HK service will set it straight.

Meanwhile, a good friend of mine has an older Mac (no digital output), and none of the USB-equipped media AVRs will interact with Macs. So he got an Emotiva Ultra Theater Series pre/pro & power amp. He spent a lot of time ripping his entire CD collection into Apple Lossless files, and needs a solution that will sound good on his shiny new 95 lb system, ideally for under $300.

Unfortunately from what I've read so far, it seems the minimum cost to get good sound is a cool grand. Does that not sound freakin' ridiculous? Why should a teeny, tiny little DAC box cost more than the lovely and massive $899 Emotiva separates?

Here's what I've seen:

1) Olive Symphony, $1,119 (http://www.olive.us/p_bin/?cid=01_01_symphony) with only 160GB? Nah.

2) AirPort Express, $99 (http://www.apple.com/airportexpress/ ). Crap sound?

3) Sonos Digital Music System, $499 (http://www.hideflifestyle.com/sonos-digital-music-system-extra-zone-p-535.html)
http://www.sonos.com/products/?tref=gstorelocator

4) Roku Soundbridge M1001, $200 (http://www.rokulabs.com/products_soundbridge.php)
The M500-B and M2000-B are no longer in production. Any opinions on how this sounds?

5) Slim Devices Squeezebox, $249 (http://www.slimdevices.com/pi_squeezebox.html?) (white sale, price shows up when click to purchase)
From what I've read, it supposedly sounds like crap unless coupled with one of these:
Benchmark DAC 1, $975 (http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/dac1/)
Musical Fidelity X-DAC v3, $995

Why can't one just use the Benchmark DAC 1 by itself?

6) Slim Devices Transporter, $1,999 (http://www.slimdevices.com/pi_transporter.html?)
This seems to be the ultimate solution right now, but it's SO FREAKIN' EXPENSIVE!

Reviews:
http://www.soundstageav.com/onhifi/20061201.htm
http://www.stereophile.com/mediaservers/207slim/index1.html
Slim Devices Transporter Kills Your CD Player (http://geekwithfamily.com/2006/12/12/audiophile/slim-devices-transporter-kills-your-cd-player/)
Slim Devices Threatens High End Audio Establishment (http://geekwithfamily.com/2006/10/13/audiophile/slim-devices-threatens-high-end-audio-establishment/)

Anyone had any experiences with these? Thanks.

A lot of the newer Macs have optical digital outs. Just connect that to a digital in on a receiver and you should be in good shape, assuming your receiver has a decent converter. If your computer doesn't have a digital out, you could get a decent soundcard with a digital out of some sort for as low as $20. Or use the digital out from Airport Express or Squeezebox.

If you really want outboard converters, you might want to look into some of the lower-end studio gear. Something like a Presonus Firebox, M-audio, et al might do it.

Yah, being an older Mac, no digital output.

7) PreSonus FIREBOX Recording (http://www.presonus.com/firebox.html) Package #1, $300 (PreSonus FIREBOX Recording Package #1)
Uses FireWire, professional DAC, this looks promising! I wonder why I've never seen it mentioned before?

Probably just because it's marketed towards home recording. The main feature is that it's got a couple of pretty nice microphone preamps and decent ADC's. I use one at home in a little project studio and I like it a lot.

If you just want to add a digital output to a Mac or PC with USB, check out something like this guy:

http://www.turtlebeach.com/site/products/audioadv/micro/

I was using one on an ancient PC to play tunes through my receiver; it worked well. I haven't tried with a Mac but I believe it works in 2.0 mode, just not 5.1 on Macs. That was a year or two ago so perhaps things have changed.

The best way in many cases is to use the digital output from either an Airport Express or the Apple TV. Assuming your music files are lossless or well-encoded high bitrate files, the sound will be as good as the DAC you feed it into. If you search through the forums for Apple TV, you'll see that lots of people are raving about the sound quality they are getting. I'm currently using an Airport Express very successfully.

interesting thread. i am in shanghai with a new AppleTV, a Hitachi plasma display and some very retro Chinese-made tube audio equipment. i'd like to use the AppleTV's digital audio output (toslink) but the plasma has only analog (RCA) input. (no, there's no HDMI on my plasma.) moreover, i'd like to send AppleTV audio output to the audio system. so i'm thinking of using the AppleTV's audio output to the tube audio system, and its Toslink output to the plasma, via a DAC.

anyone know of a decent, inexpensive Toslink-to-RCA minijack DAC?

thanks!
au

Jeffrey, what would you consider inexpensive? I've occasionally seen small, cheap (<$100) DACs, but I am suspicious that they wouldn't be any better than the DACs in the AppleTV. Most likely they'd be using virtually equivalent circuitry, given the price point. I hate to say it but you might be better off just with an RCA splitter from the AppleTV, so you could run the analog rca outs into both the TV and the tube gear.

The current Mac Minis have optical digital out. So for $599 (computer) plus $5 (cable, at monoprice) you get both an MP3 player and good DACs (if you can trust your your receiver).

The problem with the computer built-in DACs is often in the analog circuitry after the DACs, rather than the DACs themselves. Most motherboards don't do a whole lot to shield the audio going from the DAC to the 3.5mm plug (which, in itself, is seldom shielded). Thus, a cheap external DAC is quite likely to sound a lot better, because it will be less the computer EMI grunge.

However, if you want to add hardware to your current system, there are some affordable (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Audiophile2496/) PCI cards for both PC and Windows, as well as a slew (http://www.sweetwater.com/c695--USB_Audio_Interfaces/low2high) of USB (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Transit/) audio interfaces.

None of the things I pointed at are more than $100. Heck for under $100, you can even add the Lexicon (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Alpha/) name to your rig!

The problem with the computer built-in DACs is often in the analog circuitry after the DACs, rather than the DACs themselves. Most motherboards don't do a whole lot to shield the audio going from the DAC to the 3.5mm plug (which, in itself, is seldom shielded). Thus, a cheap external DAC is quite likely to sound a lot better, because it will be less the computer EMI grunge.


That can happen; I've certainly had bad experiences with PC built-in sound. However, the guy was asking about an AppleTV specifically. Apple has generally provided excellent built-in sound output hardware compared to most manufacturers; I think it's roughly on par with some of the lower-end M-audio stuff. I'd save up for something which would make a significant difference and just use built-in in the meantime.

This is just a clear case of overcomplicating things.
If the computer is close to the stereo, get a "home recording" USB or Firewire DAC. Don't pay extra for microphone preamps, but if they're there, no worries. Look for something with a digital output and you're gold, or you can find a USB DAC that works with Macs.
Option number two, if the computer is too far away, the Apple TV.

This is just a clear case of overcomplicating things.
If the computer is close to the stereo, get a "home recording" USB or Firewire DAC. Don't pay extra for microphone preamps, but if they're there, no worries. Look for something with a digital output and you're gold, or you can find a USB DAC that works with Macs.

Who are you referring to? I asked for opinions on the cheapest option that doesn't sound like ****. A simple request. How is your answer any more simple than the others?

8) Lexicon Alpha, $100 (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Alpha/) looks promising. Is that simple?

Has anyone actually use any of the solutions mentioned?

8) Lexicon Alpha, $100 looks promising. Is that simple?

It certainly looks like it, although I haven't used it personally. They always used to make great hardware back when I was in the business.
Note that this is exactly the kind of "a "home recording" USB or Firewire DAC" that Enzo was talking about, too.
It is actually slightly too complicated, because it has knobs; if you want something knob free, I would try perhaps the Edirol (a "home recording" USB or Firewire DAC) for $79. Edirol is the consumer division of Roland, which has never disappointed me in the past. I think that would be the ideal interface to try for your stated requirements. I would use it with plain Core Audio drivers (don't even install the Roland drivers).

Thanks for the tip, that's helpful. I was being a little snarky to Enzo, because the point of this thread is how to get the best sound from Mac to amp for under $300. So the goal isn't simplicity, but rather good sound for good value. I wonder if the Edirol would sound as good as a Lexicon DAC, and whether anything else under $300 would be better than the Lexicon. Hrm.

Has anyone actually use any of the solutions mentioned?

I think you'll find a lot of people who have heard one or two of these cheap studio boxes, but no one who's really compared very many. They just change too rapidly and there are too many. I've heard the Presonus gear, some m-audio devices, and a few others. The Presonus is good value as a recording box but if you're just using it as a DAC it seems expensive to me; the Lexicon probably should be good value if it uses the same components as the other gear in that line.

Who are you referring to? I asked for opinions on the cheapest option that doesn't sound like ****. A simple request. How is your answer any more simple than the others?

8) Lexicon Alpha, $100 (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Alpha/) looks promising. Is that simple?

Has anyone actually use any of the solutions mentioned?

No one in particular, just saying. No need to get defensive.
It's very difficult to find a BAD sounding DAC for any price these days. The Lexicon or any other USB/Firewire soundcard for that price would be fine.