Ok, we are shipping out a new batch of JVC RS1s over the next few days so there should be plenty of these units around the United States very soon.

If you are a CRT owner with a nice setup and are a bit curious how digital stacks up would you be willing to host an RS1 owner for a night in your theater? This is solely meant to be fun so please lets not start any CRT/Digital wars.

Maybe we can get a few of these "shootouts" throughout the nation and have a good time reporting back what we saw.

I am willing to put one of these together in the Seattle area so if you have a nice CRT setup, and you are willing, I will find a RS1/owner around Seattle and get it over to your house for a night of good times and interesting comparisons.

Any others throughout the US are encouraged to do the same and can use this thread or start your own here or in the ">$3000 digital forum".

Remember... it's all good :)

Hmmmm..... I've been waiting in the wings. Are you going to come out Tryg? Don Kellog is going to be out for a while so I don't think he is going to be able to make it anytime soon.

Sure would be NICE to do a comparison to one G90 and a stack.

Cliff

Tryg, I'm game if it's late this month or early next month :). Have to give it time for the parts to all arrive. So if you've got anyone in the Connecticut area, bring it on. For reference they will be shooting against a 9500LC with sparkly new tubes, full MP super duper mods on an 03 VIM, and HD10F lenses. Sources are HTPC, BD, HD DVD, cable HD, SD HD, whatever you want :). All with a VP50, so you can feed that RS1 1080p@24 to your heart's content.

So, if anyone's up for it let me know :)

I wouldn't mind doing one. Since I don't have a 9", many would not consider it an all out shootout, but it would be interesting comparing them on price/performance ratio, i.e. a CRT that can be had for $2000 to a RS1 which costs about $5500.

Dave

Wow! I've already got 3 willing hosts (including PMs ) :) . Keep em coming guys and I'll compile a list for the digital guys. This should be awesome!

Yeah, I'm curious how the RS1 compares.

I'm in San Diego and recently moved into a new house with a pretty cool room that I'm setting up as my office/theater.

I have a G90 with fresh tubes, but so far its been totally an amateur setup. I've had projectors for a long time so I sorta know what I'm doing but I know enough to know that I'm not getting everything out of the projector that it can do. It will probably be a while before I'm in a position to get one of the gurus out to calibrate it.

But in any event, I'm considering getting a digital as a second projector anyway - so hosting someone to compare the two seems like a fine idea.

Kris

I'd be interested in both seing a top-notch CRT and hosting someone in my new theater.

If you are a CRT owner with a nice setup and are a bit curious how digital stacks up would you be willing to host an RS1 owner for a night in your theater? This is solely meant to be fun so please lets not start any CRT/Digital wars. somehow the thought of you putting so much effort into something like this and doing it "just for fun" is a little hard to swallow. Just admit it, you're like Mobius in the Matrix, hoping the RS1 is really "the one".

I'd love to see one someone with an XGLC be part of this little shootout

I'd be interested in both seing a top-notch CRT and hosting someone in my new theater.

It would have to be the other way around, it's not really feasible for a CRTer to bring a CRT. The digital guy has to bring the digital.

RS1 owners are welcome to compare their RS1 to my 9ultra in the Austin area as long as they let me keep the RS1 for a couple of days if I like it, so that I can get to know it better.

I think this should be "Is Tryg ready for the CRT challenge!"

I already did it. The RS1 is sharper,has better uniformity (except for the green and red shading on the RS1). The G90 has better color, way way better sequential contrast and looks more 3D .ANSI although speced better for the RS1, never seemed to matter. The G90 had significantly better alignment of the three colors( no visible fringing compared to visible green and red fringing on the RS1).

For picture quality overall... G90 IMHO .

Ease of use and still a fantastic picture... RS1.

Art

Will someone in the NW do this and pull the 'Tryg'er?

:D

green and red shading on the RS1

green and red fringing on the RS1



When these problems are fixed, let me know.

Art or anyone else who has seen the RS1:
I've seen some screenshots that seems to show that it has really bad halo:ing. Worse than any CRT I've seen. Is this due to bad photographing or does it indeed suffer from halo:ing?

If anyone wants to do a lowball "shootout," I have a 980 ultra (9PGx) here in Iowa - can show BD thru my VP50. I have a nice picture for such outdated technology - would also be curious to see how much better something for triple the money looks. ;)

I already did it. The RS1 is sharper,has better uniformity (except for the green and red shading on the RS1). The G90 has better color, way way better sequential contrast and looks more 3D .ANSI although speced better for the RS1, never seemed to matter. The G90 had significantly better alignment of the three colors( no visible fringing compared to visible green and red fringing on the RS1).

This is pretty much exactly the outcome I expect with a good well set up 9". With a good well set up 8" I expect if the 8" is set up for 1080p, the sharpness difference will be a little greater, if the 8" is set up for 1080i, then sharpness will be closer but there will be occasional interlacing artifacts.

ANSI although speced better for the RS1, never seemed to matter

You don't effin' say! Gee.

Hopefully because Darin is your buddy you won't get his ire up. I've been saying this exact same thing for 2 years referencing display experts and tests I've done with various people and all it did was put Darin on a name calling tirade. Maybe because now you said it, it can be accepted. :rolleyes:

Dave

I own a Runco IDP-980 (basically the same as a NEC 9PG-xtra or something like that). 8" tubes, on an 8' wide screen in a bat cave.

While this unit is better than any other CRT I've ever seen, I've only seen 7" tubes and have never experienced a G90 or any 9" CRT.

My CRT can look damn good, but I saw a Ruby last week that blew it away in many respects, so I'm thinking I would lose in a shoot out. Heck, I'm sort of hoping I would since I've ordered an RS1.

I *may* have an RS1 tomorrow and would be happy to host a shootout. I live in the Boston metro-west area.

I own a Runco IDP-980 (basically the same as a NEC 9PG-xtra or something like that). 8" tubes, on an 8' wide screen in a bat cave.

While this unit is better than any other CRT I've ever seen, I've only seen 7" tubes and have never experienced a G90 or any 9" CRT.

My CRT can look damn good, but I saw a Ruby last week that blew it away in many respects, so I'm thinking I would lose in a shoot out. Heck, I'm sort of hoping I would since I've ordered an RS1.

I *may* have an RS1 tomorrow and would be happy to host a shootout. I live in the Boston metro-west area.


Just curious, but do you gamma correct using a gamma correction circuit or with an HTPC? I've always wondered how many out there aren't gamma correcting with their CRT for better dark detail. I know there are some out there who do not (there should be a poll for this. :D). I ask because it makes a world of difference for a CRT.

When I first got my CRT I didn't gamma correct for a little while. When I finally did it was like a revelation and now I run a custom low end gamma curve which is just freakin awesome.

Tryg,

Please send two RS-1s down here to Phoenix. I'm sure tim will be willing to do a Blendzilla digital :)

- Steve O.

Nah. You can only do a proper blend on something with BLACK blacks. If your blacks are gray, and you get a double-shot of gray in the middle, you can't hide the blend.

I expect the high end CRTs to outperform the RS-1. What I'd be more interested in is the mid to low range CRTs relative to the RS-1. I've seen a couple of references in this thread to pg xtras. I have been curious to see how my 6pg xtra would compare to something like the RS-1. So, count me in.

Silicon Optix has a new chip that reportedly will allow the image from each chip to be converged much better. It allow will allow lens aberrations to be corrected.

Shading can be corrected now but not on the RS1. Unfortunately for us CRTers, digital will soon surpass CRTs in every regard. Maybe we have a year or two left with any advantage. The bottom will drop out of CRT prices as if that hasn't happened a ready. So we will be almost has good as but cheaper. But the hassels of CRT ownership will negate any cost benefit to me.

Tryg,

Please send two RS-1s down here to Phoenix. I'm sure tim will be willing to do a Blendzilla digital :)

- Steve O.


Hehehe

What Gary said, plus we blend with 4:3 systems.........

Nah. You can only do a proper blend on something with BLACK blacks. If your blacks are gray, and you get a double-shot of gray in the middle, you can't hide the blend.

I don't see a wink-smile - are you serious here? I have seen Blendzilla with digitals, and I didn't see any "double-gray" that you speak of.

- Steve O.

I haven't personally seen a digital blend. But Tim's the Blendzilla expert, Steve. He seems to agree with me.

Hmmmm..... I've been waiting in the wings.......

Cliff


For those not familiar, "The Wings" is a new brew-pub near Cliffy's house.......:D

I'm willing to compare against my G90.

It's like my car right now, love a new one but I don;t owe anything on this one, and it does the job admirably. After much thought, my CRT is bought & paid for as well. Not worth that much, so I may as well keep it till it does. The imgae on it is still top noth (XGLC), so not much to be gained in switching for image reasons either.

But when it does, I'll get a digital in 5 years, then they will be $1999, for 1080p's with 25,000+ CR etc etc.

MSRP or street? US or Canadian?

Just curious, but do you gamma correct using a gamma correction circuit or with an HTPC? I've always wondered how many out there aren't gamma correcting with their CRT for better dark detail. I know there are some out there who do not (there should be a poll for this. :D). I ask because it makes a world of difference for a CRT.

When I first got my CRT I didn't gamma correct for a little while. When I finally did it was like a revelation and now I run a custom low end gamma curve which is just freakin awesome.


Amen to that. Having a gamma corrected image is Night & Day to a non corrected image. It allowed me to get near perfect fade to blacks, but still retain full black details. All who have seen it have commented whjat a difference it makes. This is in my opinion after focus & convergence the next most important thing. More so then astig, or colour or basically anything else.

I have an RS-1 in Jacksonville, FL if there are any well set up CRT's around here. I had a Barco CRT before but that was over 6 years ago and wouldn't qualify as well set up like the modded CRT's these days...

Silicon Optix has a new chip that reportedly will allow the image from each chip to be converged much better. It allow will allow lens aberrations to be corrected.

Shading can be corrected now but not on the RS1. Unfortunately for us CRTers, digital will soon surpass CRTs in every regard. Maybe we have a year or two left with any advantage. The bottom will drop out of CRT prices as if that hasn't happened a ready. So we will be almost has good as but cheaper. But the hassels of CRT ownership will negate any cost benefit to me.

Yeah, and that's just what we've alway heard about digital audio vs vinyl...and vinyl is still better than CD/ SACD in to many ways.
I wouldn't be surprised if digital pj's NEVER surpass CRT...just as digital audio never has.
We don't see or hear in the digital format, and that could be part of the problem.

I will gladly stack my XG 1352 up against the RS-1...and if the RS-1 comes out on top, I'll say so. While I haven't seen a digital that can match my XG yet, I have no bias against them. In fact someday I'd like to own one, if it's image can match my XG.
However I live in tehachapi California, which is about 2.5 hours north of L.A. so I don't know who might be interested in bringing one here.

Just curious, but do you gamma correct using a gamma correction circuit or with an HTPC? I've always wondered how many out there aren't gamma correcting with their CRT for better dark detail. I know there are some out there who do not (there should be a poll for this. :D). I ask because it makes a world of difference for a CRT.

When I first got my CRT I didn't gamma correct for a little while. When I finally did it was like a revelation and now I run a custom low end gamma curve which is just freakin awesome.

Mtyson-

can you describe how you're doing this and post the file necessary? Also, how did you decide on a curve? I recall powerstrip asking about non-linear gamma ramps added to registry during install but those may only work with overlay, I prefer VMR9.

btw your PM box is full.

I would be very interested in seeing the shoot out in Seattle when it gets setup

I already did it. The RS1 is sharper,has better uniformity (except for the green and red shading on the RS1). The G90 has better color, way way better sequential contrast and looks more 3D .ANSI although speced better for the RS1, never seemed to matter. The G90 had significantly better alignment of the three colors( no visible fringing compared to visible green and red fringing on the RS1).

For picture quality overall... G90 IMHO .

Ease of use and still a fantastic picture... RS1.

Art

Art,

Is it fair to compare stacked G90s to a single digital PJ? Or did you only have one of them on? Or do I not know what I'm talking about (probably this one)?

I doubt that a 15000:1 digital can match any single, well setup, high end CRT when it comes to sequential contrast.

Art,

Is it fair to compare stacked G90s to a single digital PJ? Or did you only have one of them on? Or do I not know what I'm talking about (probably this one)?

Well, since the purely academic exercises are fun , I was looking at what might replace my system for selfish reasons. The specs initially said that the RS1 should have had a similar light output to my stack so my system against an RS1 was what I wanted to see.

The RS1 is a pretty device but, as any projector I've seen, it has it's weaknesses as well. So, fair I don't know, I just can say what I did and what I saw.

I think that my post is reasonably objective. I wouild not take down my system for an RS1 it would not be anything more than a lateral move and based on the shading,contrast,fringing,light output and overall 3D look ,more like a step down at least for me.

Art

So far, so fair. :)

It would have to be the other way around, it's not really feasible for a CRTer to bring a CRT. The digital guy has to bring the digital.
Whoa, you guys are lugging projectors around? My offer was for the projector owner to come visit, bringing just his eyes and a favorite (HD)DVD. And maybe their cute daughter, where applicable.

I'm not sure I'm ready to unplug & rewire my carefully crafted theater; CRT guys obviously aren't. Regardless -- if anyone from the NC Triangle is reading, we'll work something out :)

I took the "RS-1 challenge" today at Chris Dallas's place (thanks Chris).

1) Black - the ability to display black cannot be underestimated. This applies to "bright" scenes as well. Even on the RS-1, you lose the absolute "punch" because all of the nooks and crannies that are still very dark grey or black, just come off as somewhat dark grey. Then when you have an actual dark scene, the limitation of not being able to go darker than say 5 IRE, robs you of that spooky abyss-like darkness in the shadows/unlit areas. That bottomless, inky blackness that goes forever on a crt that gives you the illusion of realism.

2) color accuracy - across several movies I noted odd fleshtones that betray the source. This has the appearance of blotchiness/posterization and just odd skintones in general. Skin is perhaps the hardest "color" to reproduce since it is a combination of translucent flesh with melatonin and blood flowing beneath. It has to look "rosy" without any weird yellow or green tints but not overly red (in general, jaundice and drunkards aside :) ). CRT has an uncanny ability to present fleshtones realistically where digitals tend to have odd skews and slants in the tonality. Color in general was nice on the RS-1 but it didn't impress me the way a CRT can. On a CRT I often find myself just marvelling at the color, an unusual tint of aquamarine, a subtlely shaded yellow-orange, the lushly varied greens, and the exquisitely pure reds. The RS-1 gives bold color but they have a homogenous character to them.

3) motion - motion wasn't bad but it didn't have the silky flow that I'm accustomed to with from an htpc running at 71.928hz. Chris mentioned that the PS3 can't do 24fps and judder was visible in pans, but the Toshiba HD-DVD still had the same, slightly unsmooth motion though without the judder. Can this be fixed with proper pulldown and a multiple of 24fps? Hopefully.

4) sharpness/detail - the RS-1 was certainly well focused and "sharp" out to the extreme corners. However, I would not say the RS-1 had anymore actual detail than a properly setup G90, Marquee 9500 running at 1080p. In fact, the pseudo sharpness created by fixed pixel devices tends to take away rather than enhance picture detail. There may be a specific scene in movie X where a little object in the background can be made out on the RS-1 but not on a G90 but in general I still vastly prefer the phosphor makeup of a CRT.

5) all that other non-picture related stuff -

RS-1 smaller, lighter, way easier to setup, super quiet OOTB, etc etc

Yes, all true. It is dead easy to get this unit working with virtually no skill. But I will always trade all of this away for a great picture so it's basically irrelevant (to me).

Final word - The RS-1 is very watchable, much more so than the bland, dim image of the wildly overpriced ruby. At ~$6k cdn it is a relatively good value, especially considering the ludicrous $10-15k of similar units last year. It's brightness and therefore ability to go HUGE is certainly going to appeal to many. However, as a self-professed "videophile", for me the RS-1 is still not what I would use in my theater, regardless of price and all of the nuisance factors of CRT. Progress is definitely being made, the digitals of 2 years ago were an utter waste of time. The RS-1 is probably good enough for most people and likely a sign of things to come.

Nice Review Jesse.

I keep trying to tempt RS1 owner's to come over but I guess it's just not going to happen until Don get's his. Oh well.

Cliff

Mtyson-

can you describe how you're doing this and post the file necessary? Also, how did you decide on a curve? I recall powerstrip asking about non-linear gamma ramps added to registry during install but those may only work with overlay, I prefer VMR9.

btw your PM box is full.


Hey. I'm doing this with FFDShow using Zoom Player Pro. I hear it can be done with some NVidia cards as well, but you'll have to ask which ones, because I'm using an ATI Radeon 9250.

Basically, the newest FFDShow has a feature under "Levels" and under that there is a pull down menu with an option called "curves" and you can add your own points to the gamma line and custom shape a curve so that it brings out detail on the low end without affecting the rest of the picture.

It's really trial and error. If you move the bottom part of the line to the right until it says "16.0" in the top box on the upper right you can begin shaping the curve by adding points and can get true black fade to blacks with good dark detail. Just play around with it until you get what you like. I just put on dark material/scenes and start playing around with it in real time to get the look I want and I check out other scenes as well. I usually start out with the very bottom of the line moved to the right until it hits 16.0 though. That's the beginning part for me. I put a dot in the center so that area is no curved a long with the rest.

I heard NVidia though allows custom points on all three colors serperately. If that's true that's awesome. :D

For a simple curve and immdiate improvement in dark detal put one point right in the middle of the gamma line, then add at least one more point half way between that point and the very bottom of the line. Then move the new point(s) to the left a bit giving it a hump on the low end. I'd watch something to see how it affect everything. .

http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/6521/hpim1523ox7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/1545/hpim1526iu6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Hey. I'm doing this with FFDShow using Zoom Player Pro. I hear it can be done with some NVidia cards as well, but you'll have to ask which ones, because I'm using an ATI Radeon 9250.

Basically, the newest FFDShow has a feature under "Levels" and under that there is a pull down menu with an option called "curves" and you can add your own points to the gamma line and custom shape a curve so that it brings out detail on the low end without affecting the rest of the picture.

It's really trial and error. If you move the bottom part of the line to the right until it says "16.0" in the top box on the upper right you can begin shaping the curve by adding points and can get true black fade to blacks with good dark detail. Just play around with it until you get what you like. I just put on dark material/scenes and start playing around with it in real time to get the look I want and I check out other scenes as well. I usually start out with the very bottom of the line moved to the right until it hits 16.0 though. That's the beginning part for me. I put a dot in the center so that area is no curved a long with the rest.

I heard NVidia though allows custom points on all three colors serperately. If that's true that's awesome. :D

For a simple curve and immdiate improvement in dark detal put one point right in the middle of the gamma line, then add at least one more point half way between that point and the very bottom of the line. Then move the new point(s) to the left a bit giving it a hump on the low end. I'd watch something to see how it affect everything. .

I see. It's tricky. As the curve gets less linear the image gets more posterized. Can you post a screenshot of the curve you typically use?

Edit: I read the 2 recent gamma threads. No rock-solid conclusions were reached as far as what to use for the curves. Sisyphus's curve of

0: 16,0
1: 21,35
2: 56,61
3: 142,138
4: 255,255

...seems to work very well on my CRT PC monitor. Really dark scenes are true black whereas without they are slightly dark grey, but shadow detail is also enhanced a bit. Can't wait to try on my CRT pj.

http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/1545/hpim1526iu6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)[/QUOTE]

Eaon Flux ! Nice post Mike !!! Yep, just one of those places that stratospheric sequential contrast shows what it's all about. :)

Art

Mit07: your private mailbox is full, so I can't reply to you.

I see. It's tricky. As the curve gets less linear the image gets more posterized. Can you post a screenshot of the curve you typically use?

Edit: I read the 2 recent gamma threads. No rock-solid conclusions were reached as far as what to use for the curves. Sisyphus's curve of

0: 16,0
1: 21,35
2: 56,61
3: 142,138
4: 255,255

...seems to work very well on my CRT PC monitor. Really dark scenes are true black whereas without they are slightly dark grey, but shadow detail is also enhanced a bit. Can't wait to try on my CRT pj.

I'm sure the best settings are different from setup to setup. I have readjusted mine MANY times trying different things even if I thought I really liked the one I had already, just to see if I could improve. So, anyway, here's is the one I made last night. I watched the new Lost on it and it looked freakin superb. My contrast is set to 5/10 and brightness 7/10. Dark scenes absolutely floor me. :)

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-9/841594/Gamma-curve-1.jpg

Whoa, you guys are lugging projectors around? My offer was for the projector owner to come visit, bringing just his eyes and a favorite (HD)DVD. And maybe their cute daughter, where applicable.

I'm not sure I'm ready to unplug & rewire my carefully crafted theater; CRT guys obviously aren't. Regardless -- if anyone from the NC Triangle is reading, we'll work something out :)

Well yeah, that's how all the previous comparisons were done. It's far far more difficult to compare things at different times than having them right there side by side with the same content, sources etc.

This is what Sisyphus's curve looks like. It's conservative but seems to work. I was actually scanning through various movies trying to find a scene where it made the image worse (using splitscreen compare in ffdshow) but every scene was either untouched or improved.

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/7929/levelstd3.png

I've always been annoyed that I either had black clipping and a slightly too dark image to achieve real black/FTB or greyed blacks with a more watchable image. No combination of the standard ATI gamma adjustment (linear) and software/hardware brightness adjustment got it right.

But this non-linear curve is fantastic. Black is black but shadow detail is bumped up just enough to make the image balance good while the mid and upper end are kept at their proper gamma levels, unlike the ATI linear gamma boost.

I think chopping it at 16 maybe fixes any PC/TV colorspace errors which is important too. The odd thing about non-linear is that really dark scenes are actually darker than without the curve while retaining some of the shadow detail. This thread should really be highlighted for anyone using a PC and ffdshow.

This is a great idea. I still remember the Sony VPL-VW400 challenge, that was a CRT beater too, along with every digital projector released since!

GAMMNA. GAMMNA, and MORE GAMMA.........

Nuff Said......

Now multiply that by TWO G90's. :^)

Bring it. Loving the fact that NO ONE even seems to try to bring this "miraculaus" porjector to compete against even ONE G90.

Cliff

Come on Guys help the Cliffster out. At the rate it's going I won't be home till my kid is born in August :( In the last month or two I've been in AZ, AL, FL, Detroit, the UK, Denmark, currently in Pensacola, FL. I've been every where man, I've been every where...........

I'm not gonna complain to much though I'm paid very well, better than moving away from MI, if I do this now I'll have the winter to relax hopefully with lots of addons to the theater :)

Cliff if something changes I'll let you know ASAP, should not be too much longer.

Very nice screenshots. So much for not judging a projector based on screenshots because those pics are clearly a cut above anything I've seen from a digitial projector. I think I might just have to give crt ago.

Mtyson-

can you describe how you're doing this and post the file necessary? Also, how did you decide on a curve? I recall powerstrip asking about non-linear gamma ramps added to registry during install but those may only work with overlay, I prefer VMR9.

btw your PM box is full.


The non linear ramps in powerstrip work fine for VMR9. Just tick on the Apply Non-Linear ramps button. I use Broadcast 2.2 Gamma D65 and bump it up to 1.20 with the slider.

I don't do it in Ffdshow as I don't use ffdshow for HD or OTA TV.

Mark

Eaon Flux ! Nice post Mike !!! Yep, just one of those places that stratospheric sequential contrast shows what it's all about. :)
Art

Yep, it's those kind of scenes that gets your blood really pumping with CRT. I've seen some impressive digitals, but if they can't do well with the scenes that make HT worth the hobby, then why bother.

Here's a few more I took this morning before the sun came out. Pardon the mis-convergence from not letting the projector warm up. And I had also put the EV setting on the camera to -1, when I usually set it to -7. So other than it being a bit out of convergence and a tad darker, it shows what I like to see.

Oh, I forgot to mention the center channel speaker wire hanging. I'm replacing the center channel today.


http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/7860/hpim1544tk9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/2638/hpim1545fr9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/599/hpim1546kj5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Mike are those screenshots fromm the 8500 AC with HD-144's?

Looks awesome

Erik

Yep, they're from that lowly 8500AC :p ;) :D !

Which may even make a cameo appearance at the BlendZilla meet :cool: :D !

Attached (hopefully): Screenshot from my 1292Q with Toshiba HD-A1 via Lumagen Vision HDP in my back-projection setup. :)

Same shot, but mapped approximately 1:1 between source resolution and the image file.

An app. 1:1 screenshot from a very detailed scene in King Kong.

Same shot as above, but the whole view.

Jesse, were both projecotors ISF'd? That can make a huge difference to image quality.

I had a Pearl here and a Barco 1209 and in my cave the difference is there but its quite close in some areas.

Jesse, were both projecotors ISF'd? That can make a huge difference to image quality.

I had a Pearl here and a Barco 1209 and in my cave the difference is there but its quite close in some areas.
Do You run the 1209 with full fade to black?

Mit07: your private mailbox is full, so I can't reply to you.

Ian, thanks for letting me know. Fixed. :)

Jesse, were both projecotors ISF'd? That can make a huge difference to image quality.

I had a Pearl here and a Barco 1209 and in my cave the difference is there but its quite close in some areas.

The RS-1 was running close to default. What areas do you think are close between the 1209 and RS-1? For me the RS-1 isn't even equal to my NEC 6PG, let alone a G90/Marquee 9500LC.

Hi Jesse,

I don't have the RS-1 one here only the Pearl. The Pearls resolves more *fine* detail than my Barco 1209 (I would have liked to have got the Pearl calibrated via ISF to do a better test between the two. My 1209 has had a lot of tweaks. I would like to keep the Pearl as I watch a lot of my material late at night (-35db) and the noise level of the Pearl is so quiet (my PS3 is louder lol).

I hope to Demo a RS-1 very soon.

I TOTALLY do it in my PHOENIX theater... I dotn have a 9" machine either just a 7" DWIN HD700 but I think it would be a good demo to show the black level between a CRT and the RS-1.

I ahve already seen the RS 1 and I am A FUTURE OWNER. In fact if I knew I was goign to be able to get them so soon I problably wouldnt have bought the DWIN at all. I had a DLP and have very recently come back to CRT since I saw the RS-1 at CES. I just got so spoiled and wanted that deep black level again that I found a pretty new DWIN. They said the RS-1 wasnt gonna be around for a while so I went CRT. Im happy but I will have an RS 1 in a few years problably. I do love owning a 3 eyed monster again though, I have to admit.

but I will have an RS 1 in a few years problably.

Me too. They'll be on Craigslist for $50 at that point... :p :D

Yeah.... But you won't be able to find a bulb for it!!

Tryg is such a trouble starter. He OBVIOUSLY has no idea what a REAL picture in home theater should look like. WOULD SOMEBODY PLEASE TAKE THE RS1 CHALLENGE WITH ME?

PLEASE?

This has been going on WAY TO LONG NOW. :)

Cliff

I'm still looking for someone with a good CRT setup in the Seattle area.

It cant be that everyone has moved to digital...can it? ;)

Maybe I'm using the word good to loosely :)

I'm still looking for someone with a good CRT setup in the Seattle area.

It cant be that everyone has moved to digital...can it? ;)

Perhaps it's because the Seattle CRT owners are busy watching movies, not being paranoid about having the best picture ('cause they know they do), or surfing the net looking for a bulb. :eek:

Hey, it could happen... :D

Has this actually happened anywhere? I was contacted by a guy expecting to get his RS1 but havent heard from him since. I'm really curious how it would look in my room compared to my G90.

Has this actually happened anywhere? I was contacted by a guy expecting to get his RS1 but havent heard from him since. I'm really curious how it would look in my room compared to my G90.

Art compared them before this thread. I don't think there has been one from this thread. No one has contacted me. :confused:

I keep waiting, and waiting, and waiting, and waiting.......

Hopefully Don Kellog will come home soon and get his over.

Cliff

I did not compare it to a single G90 just my set up.

Art

I did not compare it to a single G90 just my set up.

Art

Fair enough. But the only "perk" of your set up is brightness on your big screen. Thus I think the analysis you gave is relavent to a single G90 on a screen with half the surface area. :)

Or to a stack of three G90's on a screen 1 1/2 times the suface area or Art's screen. :) Common Art move a few walls, why onlymake it a few feet wider? :)

Will you take the RS1 challenge?

No.

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/580/apr2220072jt5.jpg

What XG is that?

Well Bradad are you going to elaborate????

Maybe I'm using the word good to loosely :) I'm sure the RS1 is good, well good enough for most people. In this forum we prefer great and it's gotta be cheap at the same time.
The question that comes to mind is, with really nice G90's selling in the $6K range lately why would anyone go with the RS1 ?

I'm sure the RS1 is good, well good enough for most people. In this forum we prefer great and it's gotta be cheap at the same time.
The question that comes to mind is, with really nice G90's selling in the $6K range lately why would anyone go with the RS1 ?

Light output will be significantly higher on the RS1 vs. the G90. Of course though, the G90 will spank the RS1 in contrast. The RS1 will also be sharper, but the G90 will have better blacks.

It's a trade off and a matter of taste at this point.........

Cliff

Dark scene make up about what? 15% of scenes maybe? And out of that 15% how many are low APL scenes? Which is superior the other 80% of the time? The G90 or RS1? I assume the RS1 has quite a bit higher ANSI contrast which would give better blacks in mixed scenes. The biggest benefit from having near infinite contrast with CRT is during darker scenes, especially low APL scenes. ANSI contrast seems to matter more during other scenes though, so aside from dark scenes can anyone say that the G90 will spank the RS1 in contrast? On/off contrast it does spank it, but the spanking really only occurs occasionally, right?

If dark low APL scenes were taken out of the equation which projector wins then? The G90 or RS1?

We all know that Art can have whatever projector setup he wants. Obviously, if the RS1 showed a better image he would have that up in place of his stack. However, this is what Art, who arguably has the best CRT image possible thanks to his wife and Ken Whitcomb, says:

I think that my post is reasonably objective. I wouild not take down my system for an RS1 it would not be anything more than a lateral move and based on the shading,contrast,fringing,light output and overall 3D look ,more like a step down at least for me.


If it is close enough to being either a step down, or possibly a lateral move, from Art's stack either all these other CRT setups are as good, or almost as good as Art's or Ken Whitcomb must have Art on drugs everytime he comes over (and thats the reason why Art thinks he is so good), or Tryg might have something.

Dark scenes should count quite a bit, though. I agree with these CRT guys that black levels should play a more important role than the not as obvious ANSI contrast. The question is how much is enough black levels to overcome enough deficiency in ANSI contrast.

Theres definitely a subjective answer to that question, so people can probably keep arguing til they are blue in the face. I think we will probably have to take the most objective of folks, like Art, and take their words for it or just keep agreeing to disagree..

I'm still waiting for someone in the Seattle area to host such an event. I'll get an RS1 there :)

Calling all G90s, barco 909s or anything anyone thinks is world class!

Dark scene make up about what? 15% of scenes maybe? And out of that 15% how many are low APL scenes? Which is superior the other 80% of the time? The G90 or RS1? I assume the RS1 has quite a bit higher ANSI contrast which would give better blacks in mixed scenes. The biggest benefit from having near infinite contrast with CRT is during darker scenes, especially low APL scenes. ANSI contrast seems to matter more during other scenes though, so aside from dark scenes can anyone say that the G90 will spank the RS1 in contrast? On/off contrast it does spank it, but the spanking really only occurs occasionally, right?

If dark low APL scenes were taken out of the equation which projector wins then? The G90 or RS1?

Excuse me, I meant on/off contrast yes. With that being said, a G90 on say a 10ft wide screen like mine will pump out say 7 foot lamberts if taken to the edge and a RS1 will probably clip 9. I've never actually seen nor was I with Ken when he measured the one at Art's, but yes, ANSI will HELP make up for the lack of true black but not eliminate it completely. It would take a very high lumen projector like the HT5000 for you to go WOW!

Not to mention, the damn thing (HT 5000) only measured about 4800 to one at Art's, but boy, when Sin City came on, any lack of true contrast was more than made up for by raw power. I could not tell at all that the blacks in this movie say vs. my stack were any LESS black than my stack. Pretty damn cool.

My responses though toward the RS1 are based upon pure speculation, so until I see one, I should probably just keep my mouth shut. :)

Cliff

I'm still waiting for someone in the Seattle area to host such an event. I'll get an RS1 there :)

Calling all G90s, barco 909s or anything anyone thinks is world class!

Uh oh, he comes out of the woodwork!!!! :p

Cliffy

Dark scenes should count quite a bit, though. I agree with these CRT guys that black levels should play a more important role than the not as obvious ANSI contrast. The question is how much is enough black levels to overcome enough deficiency in ANSI contrast.

This calculator http://home1.gte.net/res18h39/contrast.htm and this thread http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=643084&highlight=high+contrast give some insight as to how Lumens, ANSI, On/Off and the room all determine what we see on the screen.

Ken

Im not debating the science of it, I talking about the (surely my) perception of it. While higher ANSI contrast is better than lower ANSI contrast, most say that on/off contrast is more noticeable .. as far as from memory.

That is to say that unless someone was looking at split screens, or A/B comparisons, if a projector has enough ANSI contrast (say 300) it probably would not stick out like a sore thumb when compared to one with 600 ANSI contrast, from memory anyways. On the other hand, on/off contrast of 10,000 to 1 should be very noticeable versus one of even 5,000 to 1.

I could be talked into a small meet...have a new set of oem tubes sitting in boxes that I should install and I would need to do a good convergence...Guy are you still in the area?

We all know that Art can have whatever projector setup he wants. Obviously, if the RS1 showed a better image he would have that up in place of his stack. However, this is what Art, who arguably has the best CRT image possible thanks to his wife and Ken Whitcomb, says:I wouldn't recommend an RS1 for Art's screen. I just think it is too big for that gain for one RS1, much like it is for one G90. Not saying he would have preferred the RS1 with a smaller screen, just that it really wasn't appropriate for that setup. For his screen size I think he would pretty much have to go with a screen that isn't acoustically transparent and higher gain, but that isn't a reasonable tradeoff for him anyway. The 3 chip DLPs would be much more appropriate amongst the digitals for Art's setup.
Not to mention, the damn thing (HT 5000) only measured about 4800 to one at Art's, but boy, when Sin City came on, any lack of true contrast was more than made up for by raw power. I could not tell at all that the blacks in this movie say vs. my stack were any LESS black than my stack. Pretty damn cool.For some of those scenes the true contrast of the scenes probably was better than with the stack. Not the darkest ones though.
I could be talked into a small meet...have a new set of oem tubes sitting in boxes that I should install and I would need to do a good convergence...Guy are you still in the area?Guy seems to be pretty busy these days, but I'm pretty sure he is still in the area. I know somebody else who is good at setting some things up, but it depends on the projector (he has a G70) and he might be pretty busy too. What projector do you have?

--Darin

I've seen Art's G90 stack and Chris's RS-1 and the crt's are still vastly superior.

In every image-related category the G90 (and most crt's) are better than the RS-1.

The RS-1 wins all of the non image-related categories like size, weight, noise, ease of setup, etc.

The RS-1 is brighter but I find that basically irrelevant. People with digitals have this odd fetish with having these massive 120, 150, 180"! screens and then sitting 15-25' away. My friend has a 9500LC and with a 110" torus he only needs to run the contrast around 40 of 100 for sufficient brightness. In the average 8' ceiling room that's as large as you can go without forcing the center channel to sit on the floor. Sound is half the equation and I'm not ruining that just for an oversized screen.

I've seen Art's G90 stack and Chris's RS-1 and the crt's are still vastly superior.

In every image-related category the G90 (and most crt's) are better than the RS-1.

The RS-1 wins all of the non image-related categories like size, weight, noise, ease of setup, etc.

The RS-1 is brighter but I find that basically irrelevant. People with digitals have this odd fetish with having these massive 120, 150, 180"! screens and then sitting 15-25' away. My friend has a 9500LC and with a 110" torus he only needs to run the contrast around 40 of 100 for sufficient brightness. In the average 8' ceiling room that's as large as you can go without forcing the center channel to sit on the floor. Sound is half the equation and I'm not ruining that just for an oversized screen.


If you replace CRT with Qualia you start to sound like J. Mike Ferrara. Not that there is anything wrong with that but if you read his recent posts you might find that Mike might be in the midst of some "middle-aged" or "sexual enlightment stuff involving his projector" type of transformation. 8) (JK Mike.) 8)

You really dont appear to be objective to me. Its as if you have your fingers in your ears and you are saying these things to yourself, almost for your own benefit. As if you are trying to convince yourself.

You might have seen Art's stack, but Art lives with them and his take of the comparison sure is a LOT different than yours. I understand the bias though, and dont take your comments as dishonest, just misguided. 8)

Really? Heres just one right off the top of my head and RIGHT off of one of Art's posts in this thead; ANSI contrast.

Another? Brightness. You even admit it, but of course discount its benefit because its misapplied because people who own digitals like big screens but like to sit so far away from it (to negate the benefit of the big screen and brightness - you believe.) You sound like a CRT bigot. 8) Talk about generalizing. 8)

Surely, youve got to agree that both of those go towards image quality. Subjectively you might argue whether they do or dont, but objectively you can notice these things on the screen, correct?

I wouldn't recommend an RS1 for Art's screen. I just think it is too big for that gain for one RS1, much like it is for one G90. Not saying he would have preferred the RS1 with a smaller screen, just that it really wasn't appropriate for that setup. For his screen size I think he would pretty much have to go with a screen that isn't acoustically transparent and higher gain, but that isn't a reasonable tradeoff for him anyway. The 3 chip DLPs would be much more appropriate amongst the digitals for Art's setup.


I agree that Art's screen is probably too large for the RS1, I was just trying to make the point that what Art reported was different than what some folks with (much) lesser CRT setups were reporting to have seen.

I've seen Art's G90 stack and Chris's RS-1 and the crt's are still vastly superior.

In every image-related category the G90 (and most crt's) are better than the RS-1.

The RS-1 wins all of the non image-related categories like size, weight, noise, ease of setup, etc.

The RS-1 is brighter but I find that basically irrelevant. People with digitals have this odd fetish with having these massive 120, 150, 180"! screens and then sitting 15-25' away. My friend has a 9500LC and with a 110" torus he only needs to run the contrast around 40 of 100 for sufficient brightness. In the average 8' ceiling room that's as large as you can go without forcing the center channel to sit on the floor. Sound is half the equation and I'm not ruining that just for an oversized screen.

Thats a bold statement. I have had almost every crts there is, and recently tried a Barco 909 again. To say that it is better in every image-related categories isnt true for me and other that also is priviliged to choose whatever projector they want to have.

1 month ago, a die-hard crt-owner, probaly one of the first in Norway(he has had a numerous of crts the last 15 years, including the Barco 909), came by to watch the JVC HD1, the same day he ordered a HD1, and is extremely happy with the result.

I understand that many still prefer a crt-setup, but that they still are superior in every image-related catagories, only a small group of this section of the forum will claim.

I dont claim that the HD1 is superior in any form, only that I find it a better performer for me.

Crts is a great hoppy, and fun to learn about, and have a community with many passionate and skilled people, that are happy to help others to achieve better results, and I will thank this community for all the help I got with all my crt projectors. It was fun, and I am sure that many others will continue for years to have pleasure from crt-projectors. Especially when more G90s and Barco 909s reach the used marked in greater number.

I might try a G90 at one point, because it is the only projector I havet tried, and I have loved all sony crt-projectors. Today a G70 represents a tremendous value in picture-quality.

"CRTs is a great happy"? :) Sex is a great happy! CRTs are a great hobby. So is sex!

Aint viagra great! 8)

You know I love ya, Mark! 8) (And not in a sexual, or J. Mike, way either) 8)

Thats a bold statement. I have had almost every crts there is, and recently tried a Barco 909 again. To say that it is better in every image-related categories isnt true for me and other that also is priviliged to choose whatever projector they want to have.

1 month ago, a die-hard crt-owner, probaly one of the first in Norway(he has had a numerous of crts the last 15 years, including the Barco 909), came by to watch the JVC HD1, the same day he ordered a HD1, and is extremely happy with the result.


Well, to be specific

black level - no contest, The RS1 still can't manage anything even remotely close to black. Night and space scenes are basically ruined and have no illusion of depth.

color purity/accuracy - The RS1 still adds odd coloration to skintones, colors that shouldn't be in the palette, and the variation and gradation of colors is still poor

sharpness/detail - The RS1 may not have screen door problems but the discrete pixel borders still give the image an odd, artifically sharp appearance. You can't actually see more detail than a good CRT though.

motion/artifacting - crt's when scaled to their ideal res or fed with an HD res have no artifacting with motion whereas the RS1 still has dithering/shimmering oddness as objects move across its "panel"

contrast - crt's may not be blindingly bright but they still achieve a very good realworld contrast. Liquid coupled units definitely hold an edge over air coupled CRT's though. Digitals like the RS1 achieve pseudo contrast by having overly bright whites with lackluster lowend
*example* - in the movie Identity, the blacks were very poor but a sheet of paper on a desk was almost luminescent from the light reflected off it, paper just doesn't look like this under normal lighting conditions

If anyone has seen a decent crt and the RS1 feel free to argue any of these points. Be very specific though. Just saying the RS1 is sharper is not an arguement. Relate a scene where you could make out something on the RS1 that was fuzzed out on the CRT.

Darinp2

I have a dialed in G70 on a Stewart Studio/tec 130(110"). They screen size in the picture that I posted above looks deceivingly small because the speakers are actually very large.

New Sony OEM tubes sitting in a box in a closet that I bought years ago just in case the world came to an end. I wanted to be sure I was stocked up on all of the essentials I would need in a dire emergency.

Other equipment: Killer surround system, Faroudja DVP1080, Toshiba HD-DVD. Glass run to projector to HDMI + Gamma or DVI Moome Cards. Geffin HDMI switcher with 2 HDMI outputs for 2 projectors. Darth Vader color scheme room...colors and light control from the dark side.

Just, as the years have gone by, seven in all, I have less and less time to stand in the dark all weekend long re-converging new tubes...sad I know, but life moves on at an ever increasing pase...and there are just other things that take priority. So, the tubes have just sat waiting to be replaced by a digital projector that I am sure is just around the corner.

Anyways, it would be a good comparison even with the old tubes because they still beat any digital I have seen so far. And, as is, there can't be too many G70s that look much better as there are probably only a handful of people (and they are probably here on this forum) that have better systems, installations, rooms and set-up, I would imagine.

Well, to be specific

black level - no contest, The RS1 still can't manage anything even remotely close to black. Night and space scenes are basically ruined and have no illusion of depth.

color purity/accuracy - The RS1 still adds odd coloration to skintones, colors that shouldn't be in the palette, and the variation and gradation of colors is still poor

sharpness/detail - The RS1 may not have screen door problems but the discrete pixel borders still give the image an odd, artifically sharp appearance. You can't actually see more detail than a good CRT though.

motion/artifacting - crt's when scaled to their ideal res or fed with an HD res have no artifacting with motion whereas the RS1 still has dithering/shimmering oddness as objects move across its "panel"

contrast - crt's may not be blindingly bright but they still achieve a very good realworld contrast. Liquid coupled units definitely hold an edge over air coupled CRT's though. Digitals like the RS1 achieve pseudo contrast by having overly bright whites with lackluster lowend
*example* - in the movie Identity, the blacks were very poor but a sheet of paper on a desk was almost luminescent from the light reflected off it, paper just doesn't look like this under normal lighting conditions

If anyone has seen a decent crt and the RS1 feel free to argue any of these points. Be very specific though. Just saying the RS1 is sharper is not an arguement. Relate a scene where you could make out something on the RS1 that was fuzzed out on the CRT.

Here would be a couple of GREAT comparison screen shots that hopefully an RS1 owner will replicate for us to compare:

http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/8529/laloore5.jpg

http://crtforum.com/img/cliff34.jpg

http://crtforum.com/img/cliff37.jpg

Cliff

Here would be a couple of GREAT comparison screen shots that hopefully an RS1 owner will replicate for us to compare:

http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/8529/laloore5.jpg

http://crtforum.com/img/cliff34.jpg

http://crtforum.com/img/cliff37.jpg

Cliff

The only problem with that is how digital cameras turn dark grey into black. I've seen a jillion pictures in the digital section and you'd think they all did perfect 0 IRE black from the screenshots.

I got to see the Sony "Pearl" today at the Microsoft presentation. The blacks were absolutely terrible. I've seen phrases over in the digital section for the Pearl like, "great blacks", "deep blacks". Utter nonsense. The RS1 is significantly better for how dark it can go. I'm not going to even group the word black with the RS1 anymore :D

The only problem with that is how digital cameras turn dark grey into black. I've seen a jillion pictures in the digital section and you'd think they all did perfect 0 IRE black from the screenshots.

I got to see the Sony "Pearl" today at the Microsoft presentation. The blacks were absolutely terrible. I've seen phrases over in the digital section for the Pearl like, "great blacks", "deep blacks". Utter nonsense. The RS1 is significantly better for how dark it can go. I'm not going to even group the word black with the RS1 anymore :D

Dark gray would look black with any of those screenshots anyway, even with my 2200:1 4805. Infact, they might even look a bit blacker than with CRT. Higher ANSI contrast gives the illusion of having darker blacks in brighter mixed scenes. I've compared my lowend gamma corrected CRT (which is a achieveing a perfect absolute black with very good shadow detail) and my 4805 can achieve better blacks in bright mixed scenes. It is only 2200:1 on/off, but it's the superior ANSI contrast that makes the difference in certain scenes. However, the difference in dark scenes can be staggering, much moreso than the difference in mixed scenes.

BTW, how well was the Pearl calibrated? It's funny that hardcore CRTers always put so much emphasis on calibrated quality, but judge a digital immediately upon seeing it not having a clue how well it was calibrated. :)

Actually, I would like to see them to compare sharpness. :)

Cliff

BTW, how well was the Pearl calibrated? It's funny that hardcore CRTers always put so much emphasis on calibrated quality, but judge a digital immediately upon seeing it not having a clue how well it was calibrated. :)

No idea. Based on my impression of Amir (MS), I would imagine that they did a basic tuning of the projector. At one point, even Amir mentioned that "this movie would look better on a projector with better contrast, like a CRT". I can't name the movie (by their request) but it had some dark/shadowy scenes where the inky blacks of a CRT really put digitals to shame.

As good as the demo was, if it had been done on a G90 or 9500LC, jaws would still be on the floor.

I'll give you my quick take on the RS1 for now.

blacks - The RS1 doesn't have them. On a fade to black, the screen was grey, and I could play shadow puppets with ease on my screen. I was shocked and I didn't think it would be that bad, but it is. I have my CRT set to go all the way to black, I may loose a very little bit in the shadow details on higher apl scenes because of this, but black is black. The RS1 also had the "bright corners" problem which was annoying on low apl scenes to me. Blacks looked not bad most of the time on the RS1, as MTyson mentioned, ANSI contrast in play here.

Another issue is light spill from the RS1. I didn't like the light being reflected off my center channel speaker too much.

colors - The RS1 color saturation is over the top. On the Aeon Flux HD DVD on the outdoor scenes the grass looked neon green even with the "color" setting turned way down on the RS1. Everything just looked more natural on the CRT projector, flesh tones were better as well on the CRT imo.

sharpness - The RS1 is a little sharper "looking" than my CRT, but I would have to agree with what Jesse S stated that it is an artificial sharpness from the square pixels on the RS1. My CRT has no problem resolving 1920 X 1080i and it doesn't look soft at all thanks.

contrast - Yeah the RS1 is super bright on my 100" screen, blindingly so, but my CRT is also plenty bright thanks.

Convergence - The RS1 was half a pixel off at center screen on red, my CRT is perfectly converged thanks. We didn't look at "test patterns" to see the how good/bad the RS1 was in the corners/sides so I can't comment on that.

So in the meatime I'll continue to use my NEC XG750 8" CRT projector and see what the RS2/3/4 has to offer in the years ahead.

Thanks for reading,
B

No idea. Based on my impression of Amir (MS), I would imagine that they did a basic tuning of the projector. At one point, even Amir mentioned that "this movie would look better on a projector with better contrast, like a CRT". I can't name the movie (by their request) but it had some dark/shadowy scenes where the inky blacks of a CRT really put digitals to shame.

As good as the demo was, if it had been done on a G90 or 9500LC, jaws would still be on the floor.

If Kevin Collins was there he sets up the projectors at each insiders get together . He came in about an hour before when they were here and at least that long with the Qualia at Peter's in Chicago using HDDVD test material, patterns ramps etc

Art.

Bradad, you should convert your XG 750 to LC using the LC housings you have for the 9 PG Xtra.

It's a big step up in image punch.


What's this RS1 worth anyway?

Bradad, you should convert your XG 750 to LC using the LC housings you have for the 9 PG Xtra.

It's a big step up in image punch.


What's this RS1 worth anyway?

Hi Mark,

Yes I think I will be doing the conversion over to LC sooner than later and I'll most likely be calling on you for some assistance since your familiar with the procedure of swapping housings. :) I have been satisfied with my XG for the most part though and it is obviously is a big job to convert it over so I've just been enjoying it as it. I trust you have your XG running in tip top shape? :)

I think US retail on the RS1 is $6300. Also to be fair, neither my XG nor the RS1 was ISF calibrated for this shootout.

Take care,
Brad

Perhaps it's because the Seattle CRT owners are busy watching movies, not being paranoid about having the best picture ('cause they know they do), or surfing the net looking for a bulb. :eek:

Hey, it could happen... :D


Or we need more G90s in seattle. How about some G90 welfare programs huh? I want a handout. Or a forkliftout. :p

Hi Mark,

Yes I think I will be doing the conversion over to LC sooner than later and I'll most likely be calling on you for some assistance since your familiar with the procedure of swapping housings. :) I have been satisfied with my XG for the most part though and it is obviously is a big job to convert it over so I've just been enjoying it as it. I trust you have your XG running in tip top shape? :)

I think US retail on the RS1 is $6300. Also to be fair, neither my XG nor the RS1 was ISF calibrated for this shootout.

Take care,
Brad

No probs. I have the CAD files & drawings for the brackets, although you may be able to get some from a parted out LC (and the front lens cover). You just need some simple wood jigs and some F or G clamps.

My XG is great now, although my over-enthusiastic cooling mods made it run 10deg C cooler (good), but made the colours drift and take 20mins to settle down (bad).

$6300? Not bad I guess, but my XG (before LC mods) cost less than an order of magnitude less than that - with 300hr tubes. :) You can do it easy, or you can do it cheap.

I'll give you my quick take on the RS1 for now.

blacks - The RS1 doesn't have them. On a fade to black, the screen was grey, and I could play shadow puppets with ease on my screen. I was shocked and I didn't think it would be that bad, but it is. I have my CRT set to go all the way to black, I may loose a very little bit in the shadow details on higher apl scenes because of this, but black is black. The RS1 also had the "bright corners" problem which was annoying on low apl scenes to me. Blacks looked not bad most of the time on the RS1, as MTyson mentioned, ANSI contrast in play here.

Another issue is light spill from the RS1. I didn't like the light being reflected off my center channel speaker too much.

colors - The RS1 color saturation is over the top. On the Aeon Flux HD DVD on the outdoor scenes the grass looked neon green even with the "color" setting turned way down on the RS1. Everything just looked more natural on the CRT projector, flesh tones were better as well on the CRT imo.

sharpness - The RS1 is a little sharper "looking" than my CRT, but I would have to agree with what Jesse S stated that it is an artificial sharpness from the square pixels on the RS1. My CRT has no problem resolving 1920 X 1080i and it doesn't look soft at all thanks.

contrast - Yeah the RS1 is super bright on my 100" screen, blindingly so, but my CRT is also plenty bright thanks.

Convergence - The RS1 was half a pixel off at center screen on red, my CRT is perfectly converged thanks. We didn't look at "test patterns" to see the how good/bad the RS1 was in the corners/sides so I can't comment on that.

So in the meatime I'll continue to use my NEC XG750 8" CRT projector and see what the RS2/3/4 has to offer in the years ahead.

Thanks for reading,
B

I want to thank Bradad again for being the gracious host to my wife and I and DKChan last Sunday. I think we all had a great time watching both projectors do their thing.

My wife and I met Bradad and DKChan about 4 years ago when my wife and I were trying to decide what projector to buy. After trying out a few “reasonably”-priced digitals of that day, and comparing them to several very nice CRTs in Edmonton and Calgary, it was quite obvious to us that at that time CRTs displayed the superior image, so we bought an inexpensive NEC 9PG+ and I built a PIII tualatin HTPC to drive it.

Since that time we have been very happy with our home theatre. I thought that when our NEC finally bit the dust, I’d go the DIY route, but that was before I saw the RS1 at DKChan’s home several weeks ago.

On that occasion I had the opportunity to see the RS1 project an up-scaled SD DVD image, and Starchoice HDTV Jay Leno. I thought both formats’ images were simply fantastic on the RS1.

I reciprocated his hospitality by inviting him to our place to see the image on our NEC. But after doing a quick convergence touch-up on our NEC, I called to tell him that the RS1’s image was so far superior to that of our 9PG+, that he would be sorely disappointed at what he would see, and I would be a bit embarrassed to do the comparison.

After having seen how good an up-scaled SD DVD could look on a projector, I started doing some research on the Oppo 981 and the Toshiba HD XA2 as possible substitutes for our HTPC to drive the 37” LCD TV that we have in front of our treadmill. It was during that research, and after submitting a few posts on the HD DVD forum, that Bradad posted to tell me that he had the XA2 driving his XG and to invite me over to have a look.

I gladly took him up on his invitation two weeks ago and I was very impressed by what I saw – an 8” CRT projector producing a much better image than our 9PG+.

During that evening I asked Bradad if he would like me to try to arrange a one-after-the-other viewing of his XG and the RS1 in his theatre, and, to make a pretty short story even shorter, that’s what happened the following (last) Sunday evening.

I sat at, or slightly less than, one screen diagonal from the screen, and to the right side of the screen. My wife, Bradad and DKChan sat on a sofa about 3 or four feet farther away from the screen than me, but directly in front of it.

We all noticed that when there was no image being projected on the screen, the screen was definitely much darker on the CRT – black on the CRT versus very dark “grey” on the RS1. We also noticed that the RS1’s corners were slightly brighter than the rest of the dark screen. Other than that light "spill", I noticed no other extraneous light spill from the RS1 during any scene I viewed thereafter. I have no doubt whatsoever that the XG would display the “scene” of a power outage in a coal mine better than the RS1 would.

But in any scene whose light level was above that, I think the RS1’s performance was at least equal, and most times superior, to that of the XG. For example, in the dark scene in “The Hulk” in which Jennifer Connelly meets the Hulk outside of a cabin (also the scene in which those mutated dogs attack), it is the opinion of my wife and I that the RS1 not only displayed more overall detail than the XG, but it displayed it in a more satisfying fashion.

After the RS1’s color level was lowered after its initial startup on the movie “Vertical Limit”, IMO the color was thereafter both accurate and spectacularly vibrant. To me, it displayed flesh tones perfectly, and this made its image look far more realistic and 3D than that of the CRT. For example, in the lunch scene between Jennifer Connelly and Sam Elliot in the movie “The Hulk”, the RS1 not only accurately displayed the difference in flesh tone between the white-faced Connelly and the more sun-tanned Elliot, it also realistically displayed the striking contrast between her very dark clothes and the much brighter sunny outdoors scene on the other side of the window. The brass of Sam Elliot’s uniform, and all the features on his head in close-up, were also beautifully rendered by the RS1.

Although the XG really did display an admirable image, after watching the RS1, I thought the XG’s image looked dimmer, less-resolved, and, therefore, less realistic than the RS1. DKChan noted to me later that he could frequently see the XG’s scan lines in bright scenes, but he could never see pixels from the RS1.

After having watched our CRT’s image for four years, it is difficult to express the impact that the contrast and controlled brilliance of the RS1 (most especially in any well-lighted, or daytime scenes) had on me and my wife. I’m almost certain that HDTV hockey and other sports will look absolutely fantastic on the RS1.

Something that continues to impress me about CRT is its speed and lack of artifacts while displaying images containing fast motion. Our LCD TV is obviously inferior in this regard, and even the latest flat-panel LCD and plasma displays, although they are much better than our own LCD display, are still are not on par with a CRT. But the RS1 excels even in this regard and I could not discern any difference between it and the XG. That is one of the most impressive feats of the RS1, IMO.

To sum up, in the opinion of my wife and me, the RS1’s shadow detail is very close to that of a 9PG+ and an XG75 CRT. This, combined with the RS1’s sharpness, brilliant color, and fantastic response time, make its image look very realistic.

I can understand a CRT person’s angst at having a thread such as this in the CRT forum. But I can now also understand Tryg’s excitement over the RS1, and his boyish desire to spread the good word to a group of people who appreciate a good image when they see one.

I think that all CRT owners should give the RS1 a good look, even if only to see how far digital projectors have advanced in this new JVC model. Quite obviously, after seeing the RS1, some CRT folks will likely not agree with what I’ve said here, but I think some, like me and my wife, indeed will.

Ever since she saw it last week, my wife has actually been pushing for us to buy an RS1, and I have been the one resisting. This is a very rare state of affairs in our household. Even though we can well afford it, I feel like we’d be doing something irresponsible if we were to plunk down that much money on something as superfluous as another projector. But if the RS1 were $3500 instead of $6500, and the XA2 were $500 instead of $750 (CAD) locally, we would have had both in our theater the day after seeing those two projectors.

Let your wife have her way. I might let you guys have my pre-order RS1 for what I would pay for it, since I already have an HD1, which would put it a lot closer to your $3500 than the $6500 (that would be US $ though 8/), if you guys are interested in it.

You can probably buy an HD-A2 for less than $500 canadian (WITH A BUNCH OF FREE HD-DVDs), and with the gennum in the RS1 you wouldnt necessarilly have to have the XA2. If you are already in that $ range, I think its worth the extra $.

When my setup is finished, in about 2 weeks, ill put up some screenshots of some 2.35 images.

Herve, the image from a 9PG+ should be pretty close to an XG750. Both are 8" EM focus Air Coupled CRTs with filtered lenses. The XG should be a touch sharper and brighter. The difference between a 6PG Xtra and an XG-751 is minor, and the PG+ is not far behind an Xtra.
Unless your tubes are shot, a full setup might be in order.


I'm finding it interesting that a Air Coupled CRT is at least able to give the latest and greatest a run for it's money. Anyone compared it to an 8" LC or 9" LC yet?

Great post, Herve.

I had a Runco IDP-980 (basically a NEC 9PGExtra) for 10 years and just recently switched to an RS1. I have both operational at the moment and have done many comparisons. The CRT still throws a great image, but overall I much prefer the RS1.

Thanks for the great post Herve. You really put some time and thought into it. I think you would surprised what you can get the RS for. If you can get your hands on one. We are still a bit back ordered.

This unit is indeed impressive, but better yet, its going to continue to get better!

How is it going to continue to get better?

That is an excellent review Herve, both from a factual and comparison report.

I think the problem that a lot of us on the CRT forum have (aside from being cheap bastages!) is that here we are, most of us watching approx 10 year old technology (some older, some newer) that we (usually) paid pennies on the original $$ for. Despite the odd failure of said CRTs (that are always repairable, no matter what the problem), we constantly read about issues with new out of the box digitals, the RS1 included.

Unfortunately, many of those problems we read about are not user repairable (misconvergence, short lifepan/dimming bulbs, etc).

So while I'm especially lucky in that I not only repair my own CRTs as well as others here, I would always be paranoid about a $XXXX bulb failing in that little box hanging over my head. IN addition, the fact that such bulbs are usually discontinued 5-7 years after the product has been replaced with something new/cheaper/better, I don't believe that most if any of the digitals bought today will be here in 6-7 years from now.

I can safely say that the vast majority of used CRTs that I sell today will be here in 7-8 years from now.

For someone on a budget, say $1000-$3000 and likes the do-it-yourself approach, a good CRT will always have appeal over a digital box.

The depreciation of a Sony Qualia has gone from $27K new to $7K used (approx) in a 3 year period. Scary and very disappointing for anyone that bought this unit new (unless used for business purposes, then it's a good tax witeoff..;)

The only problem with that is how digital cameras turn dark grey into black. I've seen a jillion pictures in the digital section and you'd think they all did perfect 0 IRE black from the screenshots.I completely agree. I have a very old digital projector and even my screen images appear black which certainly isn't the case in person.



http://www.homeaudiovideoadvisor.com/images/S2.JPG

http://www.homeaudiovideoadvisor.com/images/CrankScreen1.jpg

http://www.homeaudiovideoadvisor.com/images/AScannerDarklyScreen4.jpg

http://www.homeaudiovideoadvisor.com/images/HappyFeetScreen3.jpg

Tryg

Ok, guess I scared off the RS1 comparison in Seattle...already know which one would win anyway. Faroudja + Sony = MAGIC! Ask Art...

Rick,

I would love to do this. I just dont want to have people saying "it was only a G70" :(

We've already compared the the Marantz to a G70 and Of course I feel the RS is a step up from that. Stay tuned, I'm still waiting to see if we can find on of these :eek:
http://www.barco.com/corporate/en/products/product.asp?GenNr=336

I have seen the RS1 locally and can tell you that the G70 will be just fine. Trust me, I know optics. And, the Faroudja DVP1080 with the full digital chain from source through the Faroudja and up to the projector will hold up just fine as well. It is magic.

Rick,

I would love to do this. I just dont want to have people saying "it was only a G70" :(

We've already compared the the Marantz to a G70 and Of course I feel the RS is a step up from that. Stay tuned, I'm still waiting to see if we can find on of these :eek:
http://www.barco.com/corporate/en/products/product.asp?GenNr=336

Tryg,

You know that that SIM PJ is not color corrected for D65 right?

Cliff

I have no doubt whatsoever that the XG would display the “scene” of a power outage in a coal mine better than the RS1 would.


I always find it amusing when people refer to dark scenes as being unusual or rare in movies. A movie doesn't have to be abyss-dark like The Descent to enjoy the added punch that true black adds.


But in any scene whose light level was above that, I think the RS1’s performance was at least equal, and most times superior, to that of the XG. For example, in the dark scene in “The Hulk” in which Jennifer Connelly meets the Hulk outside of a cabin (also the scene in which those mutated dogs attack), it is the opinion of my wife and I that the RS1 not only displayed more overall detail than the XG, but it displayed it in a more satisfying fashion.


I don't doubt that more picture was visible on the RS1 in that scene. Digitals elevate the black level bringing out some detail that should be hidden in darkness.


Although the XG really did display an admirable image, after watching the RS1, I thought the XG’s image looked dimmer, less-resolved, and, therefore, less realistic than the RS1. DKChan noted to me later that he could frequently see the XG’s scan lines in bright scenes, but he could never see pixels from the RS1.


DKChan isn't feeding the XG a high enough res if scanlines are visible.


I can understand a CRT person’s angst at having a thread such as this in the CRT forum. But I can now also understand Tryg’s excitement over the RS1, and his boyish desire to spread the good word to a group of people who appreciate a good image when they see one.


Only the "digital guys" have angst about discussing things :D

I just found the RS-1's image bland. It can't do black so there is no punch and colors were homogenous (saturated but no subtle variation). I want to be wowed when I watch a movie. The RS-1 has no wow factor for someone who is already used to watching 100"+ screens.

Well, obviously this is very subjective and I haven't seen a G90 (though I have seen a fair number of CRTs) and I can tell you that I've never been wowed by an image as much as I have by the RS1 displaying HD.

Now if someone would just buy my CRT...

I dont know how many former CRT guys who are now using the RS1 it will take for some folks. Even Art, who arguably has one of the best CRT setups in the world, refers to the RS1 as either a lateral move or just a step down for him.

Keep hanging on to your CRT if it makes you happy, but do get a grip.

I don't doubt that more picture was visible on the RS1 in that scene. Digitals elevate the black level bringing out some detail that should be hidden in darkness.

If you can see it by elevating the black level its called "detail." If it disappears into the "darkness" that is called "black crush." Dont mistake the good thing for being bad and the bad thing for being good.

You want to be able to have the black, and still see as much of the detail as possible. That is 20000: 1 CONTRAST RATIO at work.

That is 20000: 1 CONTRAST RATIO at work.

Nope. No way.

The RS1 DOES NOT do 20K to 1 contrast.

Cliff

I dont know how many former CRT guys who are now using the RS1 it will take for some folks. Even Art, who arguably has one of the best CRT setups in the world, refers to the RS1 as either a lateral move or just a step down for him.

Keep hanging on to your CRT if it makes you happy, but do get a grip.



If you can see it by elevating the black level its called "detail." If it disappears into the "darkness" that is called "black crush." Dont mistake the good thing for being bad and the bad thing for being good.

You want to be able to have the black, and still see as much of the detail as possible. That is 20000: 1 CONTRAST RATIO at work.

It is a step down. I'm more than confident in saying that he would correct that statement publicly.

Cliff

As a "CRT guy" I've seen the RS1 as well and I agree with Art that it might be a "lateral" move for me as well or just a step down from my G70. Does that make the RS1 owners feel better?

It is almost as good as my CRT...but it ain't got the magic...get it? I didn't think so.

Oh, you want me to quantify magic...never mind.

I don't doubt that more picture was visible on the RS1 in that scene. Digitals elevate the black level bringing out some detail that should be hidden in darkness.

I actually have to disagree with your statement to a point in which most CRT setups have "crushed" blacks wich lose a fair amount of detail on low IRE.

If setup properly and given the equipment used in a CRT setup with proper calibration can yeild AMAZING low end shadow detail performance while IMPROVING black level to ways never imagined before with CRT.

Cliff

I actually have to disagree with your statement to a point in which most CRT setups have "crushed" blacks wich lose a fair amount of detail on low IRE.

If setup properly and given the equipment used in a CRT setup with proper calibration can yeild AMAZING low end shadow detail performance while IMPROVING black level to ways never imagined before with CRT.

Cliff


You guys are even debating yourselves about if crushed blacks is a good feature of CRTs or not. 8)

That might be rounding up just a smidge, from 18k+ :1, but its pretty damn close. If I show you a review from a VERY reputable reviewer where he MEASURED that will that satisfy you?

Im thinking that a single G70 is probably more than just a step down from Art's stack, but what do I know. 8) It sounds like Tryg doesnt even think its worth the effort to setup a shootout with the G70 because most people would dismiss the outcome. I mean, why not add in a Sharp 9000 into the mix. 8)

It is a step down. I'm more than confident in saying that he would correct that statement publicly.

Cliff


I think he has summed his feelings up several times, probably much to your chagrin. Not once have I seen him correct himself. I dont think the man mis-speaks. He is Art. 8) Unless of course you recently became his publicist. 8)

BTW, Im just having some good fun with you guys. Please dont send me any hatemail. 8)

I know about bias. Its tough to be objective when you are talking about your babies. You just have to depend on what you hear from the folks who are trying to be objective, like Art, Herve and his wife, and Greg Rogers. If you cant be objective, or want to keep shouting while you have your fingers in your ears, thats ok too, as long as you are happy. 8)

I dont know how many former CRT guys who are now using the RS1 it will take for some folks. Even Art, who arguably has one of the best CRT setups in the world, refers to the RS1 as either a lateral move or just a step down for him.

Keep hanging on to your CRT if it makes you happy, but do get a grip.



If you can see it by elevating the black level its called "detail." If it disappears into the "darkness" that is called "black crush." Dont mistake the good thing for being bad and the bad thing for being good.

You want to be able to have the black, and still see as much of the detail as possible. That is 20000: 1 CONTRAST RATIO at work.


Bah, your just stuck in the rampant consumerism digital projector trap that's ruining the planet, consuming resources at an ever accelerating rate - just to get black.

We rescue our projectors from landfill, and give them a new lease of life. Preventing the misuse of precious resources to make disposable toys that are obsolete 6 weeks after being made. And they can do black. ;)

Its capitalism, baby!

God bless you environmentalists. Even sacrificing picture quality to save the environment!

You guys are even debating yourselves about if crushed blacks is a good feature of CRTs or not. 8)

That might be rounding up just a smidge, from 18k+ :1, but its pretty damn close. If I show you a review from a VERY reputable reviewer where he MEASURED that will that satisfy you?

Im thinking that a single G70 is probably more than just a step down from Art's stack, but what do I know. 8) It sounds like Tryg doesnt even think its worth the effort to setup a shootout with the G70 because most people would dismiss the outcome. I mean, why not add in a Sharp 9000 into the mix. 8)



I think he has summed his feelings up several times, probably much to your chagrin. Not once have I seen him correct himself. I dont think the man mis-speaks. He is Art. 8) Unless of course you recently became his publicist. 8)

BTW, Im just having some good fun with you guys. Please dont send me any hatemail. 8)

I know about bias. Its tough to be objective when you are talking about your babies. You just have to depend on what you hear from the folks who are trying to be objective, like Art, Herve and his wife, and Greg Rogers. If you cant be objective, or want to keep shouting while you have your fingers in your ears, thats ok too, as long as you are happy. 8)

Dont take me the wrong way when I say that shadow detail is VERY important in a good CRT setup.

I compared a ruby in my last theater directly against my G70. My G70 pretty much wiped the floor with it for the most part other that shear light output.

It has ALWAYS been this way with digital.

White as hell and sheer light output that causes color saturation beyond your wildest dreams. :)

I would never put words in Art's mouth in regards to the RS1 compared to his stack and I truthfully have never seen an RS1 and hope to soon.

I do know however that the ONLY WAY that it will beat a stacked G90 setup is if it's on the caliber of a 3 chip DLP like the Sim HT5000 which I severly dought it is.

More than severly dought........

:D ;)

Cliff

P.S.

BTW, the low IRE performance of the HT5000 purley sucks compared to a G90 stack.

Cliff

PPS:

I will NEVER forget the look on both Darins and my face on certain scenes when the HT5000 just blew us BOTH away.

I am a big fan of black levels myself. I much preferred watching my old Sharp 12k in high contrast mode, with a fairly worn bulb and a Firehawk screen, than in high brightness mode. There comes a point though where black is black enough, specially when white and other colors are so bright at the same time. Kind of like when you guys saw the HT5000.

If black was all that matterred, then black crush would not be a bad thing. But it isnt, and it is, respectively.

Catdaddy67

"Im thinking that a single G70 is probably more than just a step down from Art's stack, but what do I know."

Answer: Not much. The G70 has more DNA in common with the G90 than the RS1. It's ok if you don't get it. Art gets it, we get it, and you don't have to understand what is so great about any CRT picture.

How about this; I like my steak grilled on a barbeque. I know the microwave will heat that same steak more uniformly and it can do it faster and with less fuss...but I like the grilled steak because it tastes better. I can't exactly explain that to someone that doesn't have a barbeque grill...it is just a richer and more pleasurable experience.

You can measure these things every which way to Sunday, but you won't be able to measure your way to the answer to a sensory experience. Either you get it or you don't...that is why Art has CRT. And, I bet he likes his microwave and views it as only a step down from grilling...

I want to thank Bradad again for being the gracious host to my wife and I and DKChan last Sunday. I think we all had a great time watching both projectors do their thing.

My wife and I met Bradad and DKChan about 4 years ago when my wife and I were trying to decide what projector to buy. After trying out a few “reasonably”-priced digitals of that day, and comparing them to several very nice CRTs in Edmonton and Calgary, it was quite obvious to us that at that time CRTs displayed the superior image, so we bought an inexpensive NEC 9PG+ and I built a PIII tualatin HTPC to drive it.

Since that time we have been very happy with our home theatre. I thought that when our NEC finally bit the dust, I’d go the DIY route, but that was before I saw the RS1 at DKChan’s home several weeks ago.

On that occasion I had the opportunity to see the RS1 project an up-scaled SD DVD image, and Starchoice HDTV Jay Leno. I thought both formats’ images were simply fantastic on the RS1.

I reciprocated his hospitality by inviting him to our place to see the image on our NEC. But after doing a quick convergence touch-up on our NEC, I called to tell him that the RS1’s image was so far superior to that of our 9PG+, that he would be sorely disappointed at what he would see, and I would be a bit embarrassed to do the comparison.

After having seen how good an up-scaled SD DVD could look on a projector, I started doing some research on the Oppo 981 and the Toshiba HD XA2 as possible substitutes for our HTPC to drive the 37” LCD TV that we have in front of our treadmill. It was during that research, and after submitting a few posts on the HD DVD forum, that Bradad posted to tell me that he had the XA2 driving his XG and to invite me over to have a look.

I gladly took him up on his invitation two weeks ago and I was very impressed by what I saw – an 8” CRT projector producing a much better image than our 9PG+.

During that evening I asked Bradad if he would like me to try to arrange a one-after-the-other viewing of his XG and the RS1 in his theatre, and, to make a pretty short story even shorter, that’s what happened the following (last) Sunday evening.

I sat at, or slightly less than, one screen diagonal from the screen, and to the right side of the screen. My wife, Bradad and DKChan sat on a sofa about 3 or four feet farther away from the screen than me, but directly in front of it.

We all noticed that when there was no image being projected on the screen, the screen was definitely much darker on the CRT – black on the CRT versus very dark “grey” on the RS1. We also noticed that the RS1’s corners were slightly brighter than the rest of the dark screen. Other than that light "spill", I noticed no other extraneous light spill from the RS1 during any scene I viewed thereafter. I have no doubt whatsoever that the XG would display the “scene” of a power outage in a coal mine better than the RS1 would.

But in any scene whose light level was above that, I think the RS1’s performance was at least equal, and most times superior, to that of the XG. For example, in the dark scene in “The Hulk” in which Jennifer Connelly meets the Hulk outside of a cabin (also the scene in which those mutated dogs attack), it is the opinion of my wife and I that the RS1 not only displayed more overall detail than the XG, but it displayed it in a more satisfying fashion.

After the RS1’s color level was lowered after its initial startup on the movie “Vertical Limit”, IMO the color was thereafter both accurate and spectacularly vibrant. To me, it displayed flesh tones perfectly, and this made its image look far more realistic and 3D than that of the CRT. For example, in the lunch scene between Jennifer Connelly and Sam Elliot in the movie “The Hulk”, the RS1 not only accurately displayed the difference in flesh tone between the white-faced Connelly and the more sun-tanned Elliot, it also realistically displayed the striking contrast between her very dark clothes and the much brighter sunny outdoors scene on the other side of the window. The brass of Sam Elliot’s uniform, and all the features on his head in close-up, were also beautifully rendered by the RS1.

Although the XG really did display an admirable image, after watching the RS1, I thought the PG’s image looked dimmer, less-resolved, and, therefore, less realistic than the RS1. DKChan noted to me later that he could frequently see the XG’s scan lines in bright scenes, but he could never see pixels from the RS1.

After having watched our CRT’s image for four years, it is difficult to express the impact that the contrast and controlled brilliance of the RS1 (most especially in any well-lighted, or daytime scenes) had on me and my wife. I’m almost certain that HDTV hockey and other sports will look absolutely fantastic on the RS1.

Something that continues to impress me about CRT is its speed and lack of artifacts while displaying images containing fast motion. Our LCD TV is obviously inferior in this regard, and even the latest flat-panel LCD and plasma displays, although they are much better than our own LCD display, are still are not on par with a CRT. But the RS1 excels even in this regard and I could not discern any difference between it and the XG. That is one of the most impressive feats of the RS1, IMO.

To sum up, in the opinion of my wife and me, the RS1’s shadow detail is very close to that of a 9PG+ and an XG75 CRT. This, combined with the RS1’s sharpness, brilliant color, and fantastic response time, make its image look very realistic.

I can understand a CRT person’s angst at having a thread such as this in the CRT forum. But I can now also understand Tryg’s excitement over the RS1, and his boyish desire to spread the good word to a group of people who appreciate a good image when they see one.

I think that all CRT owners should give the RS1 a good look, even if only to see how far digital projectors have advanced in this new JVC model. Quite obviously, after seeing the RS1, some CRT folks will likely not agree with what I’ve said here, but I think some, like me and my wife, indeed will.

Ever since she saw it last week, my wife has actually been pushing for us to buy an RS1, and I have been the one resisting. This is a very rare state of affairs in our household. Even though we can well afford it, I feel like we’d be doing something irresponsible if we were to plunk down that much money on something as superfluous as another projector. But if the RS1 were $3500 instead of $6500, and the XA2 were $500 instead of $750 (CAD) locally, we would have had both in our theater the day after seeing those two projectors.

Herve,

First you say that my "XG produces a much better image than your 9PG+" then go on to say that shadow detail of my XG is very close to that of your PG+? Which one is it Herve? I did see your 9PG+ all those years ago and imo you have issues with your setup, especially when it comes to blacks and shadow detail. Your screen was also completely grey on the fade to blacks and I'm sorry, but that is just not right, especially for a CRT projector. A side note **I will receive my HD DVD Digital Video Essentials next week to properly set up my brightness on HD material, so as I stated in my first post I might be loosing the ever so slight last bit of black details as it sits now, but I will verify my brightness levels when I get my disc in.**

You thought my XG looked dimmer than the RS1 - Yes it in fact did but do you possible think Herve that my contrast setting being at 34 (yes thirty four) had something to do with it? Remember I showed you my contrast setting Herve? You can verify that it was at 34 right sir? What do you run your contrast at? 80/90? I remember your HTPC being jacked up pretty high on the contrast and brightness settings when I was at your place for a demo, and you image looking "washed out" and being "grey" instead of "black". You are trying to compensate at your PC for your "lack of brightness" as you state on your PG+, where in fact as Mark_A_W stated you have a calibration issue with your PG+. You have been viewing your system like that for years now and maybe it is time you invested just a little more $$ and at least got your PG+ calibrated and give it another chance and save yourself some big $$$ by not investing in another projector. :)

Your comment on lowering the color on the RS1 does not correct the over saturation, or "brilliant color" as you worded it, it changes the color balance or in other words it alters the color reproduction in a way that is not desirable to many. You had DKChan turn that "color setting" down so far on that RS1, (like minus 18?) I was shocked by that, and surprised that he would even alter the setting that far from the factory setting. I would have liked to have seen the color setting at midpoint or factory settings on the RS1, but I'm not sure I could take all that "accurate and spectacularly vibrant" color being projected by the RS1 ;) But it is exactly as you stated, it is your opinion that it was the correct setting on the RS1 and I guess that's what matters most and is a thing of taste.

As far as your comment about the XG's image being "less-resolved" than the RS1, my XG is resolving 1920X1080 pretty well so I'm not sure I understand where this extra detail is coming from you see on the RS1 over my XG? Like I said the RS1 may have looked sharper than the XG, but I'm not sure there was any extra detail to be seen. As a reference, it was nice to see the distance between pixels on the RS1 and compare the distance between scan lines on my XG and see that distance being about equal between the two projectors.

I don't quite understand why you say you can well afford to buy both the XA2 and the RS1 yet you go on to say that if the price was X amount of dollars lower on both you would have bought them the day after seeing them? If you like them so much and can afford them both then why not? You guys are both retired and have lots of time to watch and enjoy movies, so why not treat yourselves? You do deserve it right? I also remember you saying that you would wait for the Toshiba XA3 that you believe will have a "zoom feature" that you could zoom in on 2:35:1 movies to fill your 4:3 screen because you don't care about watching movies in the OAR. :confused:

I am not saying that my CRT is perfect, as it is not, but please that RS1 is not perfect either. I would guess my first post most likely offended the digital guys because I was so quick to point out the flaws I saw with the RS1. Well I do apologize for that, but it also gets a little annoying when you digital guys get to talking down about CRT projectors.

I'm honestly not sure if I could live with the blacks and bright corner issues of the RS1 and also the light spill that goes beyond the border of the screen. On those really dark scenes, I could see that blacks were not black and in fact grey, and I could also see the bright corners which to me were a little annoying. Maybe I am just a lot more sensitive to these things as I have very good vision? Now Herve, what is your eyeglass prescription? ;) And I also remember you saying that you didn't see the need for me to upgrade my projector? Reading your post I guess you really didn't mean to say that now did you?

Tryg,

Tell me, can these issues I saw with the RS1 be calibrated out? The screen was really grey and the corners were brighter yet, it just didn't seem right to me at all. Was this RS1 faulty in some way possibly? What about the primary color issue? Color balance is obviously subjective and one can adjust to taste anyways, but I found the RS1 a little bit over the top on some scenes. Other than that, yes the RS1 has come a long way in the digital world and this projector is outstanding in every other way.

Thanks,
B

In the end, that is all that matters, is that you get it. It doesnt really matter if you think Art does, or doesnt, or Herve, or Greg Rogers, or even Cliff, or me.

The Sharp 9000 has a lot more DNA in common with the Sim HT5000 than the RS1 does, too. The Isco II, same with the Isco III. What that does have to do with anything?

Now you dont think there is much of a difference in PQ between 7" and 9" guns? Maybe in the same way 720p and 1080p PJs dont?

Theres a lot of former, or current, CRT people who you must think have just been hit on the head because apparently they used to get it, but dont anymore.

How about this; I like my steak grilled on a barbeque. I know the microwave will heat that same steak more uniformly and it can do it faster and with less fuss...but I like the grilled steak because it tastes better. I can't exactly explain that to someone that doesn't have a barbeque grill...it is just a richer and more pleasurable experience.


It would be different if you left it to what you thought, or what you felt, but you dont. Its almost as if you are saying that it is so because you feel this way, and if anyone else doesnt feel this way then they just dont get it, because THAT (the way you feel) is just the way it is.

In regard to your analogy, if by "barbecue grill" you mean "black crush" and by "microwave" you mean "detail," yes I like "microwave" and not "barbecue grills." 8)

I have to go to bed, but I have had fun posting this crap. Nobody really takes this too seriously, right? And, if you live in the Seattle area and you want to bring your RS1 over, just PM me and come over. It doesn't have to be an official Tryg Shootout, just come over and I'll buy the suds. And, I promise, the CRT retards won't be invited.

Same here, Rick. Just having fun here, as well. We are all lucky enough to have some pretty awesome HT setups, and thats why we post here! Night for me, too.

Catdaddy67

Since it is so late and I doubt anyone is reading this stuff...I will admit that if the g70 died tonight and if I couldn't sneak a g90 past my wife before I could get it mounted on the ceiling for a go...I'd but the RS1 in a heart beat...its that good.

Goodnight again.

I actually have to disagree with your statement to a point in which most CRT setups have "crushed" blacks wich lose a fair amount of detail on low IRE.

If setup properly and given the equipment used in a CRT setup with proper calibration can yeild AMAZING low end shadow detail performance while IMPROVING black level to ways never imagined before with CRT.

Cliff

How much shadow detail is very subjective though. A friend of mine got very hung up on a dark alley scene in Spiderman 1. Depending on brightness and gamma setup you would see more or less of the brick detail on the wall, even to the point that he would rather see more bricks and sacrifice the absolute black level. I said to him that maybe you're not supposed to see every single brick since it is a dark scene.

This is a shot from Lady in the Water. How much should you be able to see?

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/7741/lady1in7.jpg
http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/2752/lady2jq3.jpg
http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/3851/lady3lz4.jpg
http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/4610/lady4cv2.jpg

Obviously we don't want everything to be lost into the blackness but humans don't have nightvision either.

It's imperative that all comparisons between CRT:s and digitals be done with the CRT in full fade to black mode and with gamma correction for a true ~2.5 gamma from 10-100% amplitude. A greyscale calibration to D65 is good too, but the full FTB in combination with correct gamma reproduction is far more important if one wants to show off CRT from it's best side.
Digitals are coming more and more well tuned out-of-the box so that makes it more and more imortant to tune our dinosaurs before comparisons are done.

And - herve - nice post indeed, but if it's true what is said, that Your CRT doesn't produce true fade to black - then I'm sure it will loose against MANY cheap digitals. You must go full fade to black and use gamma correction.

Concerning black levels and what is supposed to be visible and not - well, DVE PRO offers greyscale windows in 5% amplitude steps, and if the 5% pattern is at it's correct gamma level when measured with a colorimeter or such - well then one can be pretty sure that most details that are supposed to be visible truly are.
I can easily see app. 2-3 % amplitude windows when running true fade to black with gamma correction at 2.5 on my 1292 back projection.

But, a non-gamma-corrected CRT will most of the time crush or under-emphasize lower amplitude levels - yes.

...........................
And I also remember you saying that you didn't see the need for me to upgrade my projector? Reading your post I guess you really didn't mean to say that now did you?
...............................
B
Because the rest of your post already speaks volumes about its author, I will only respond to the portion of your post that I’ve quoted.

Yes, I really meant what I said to you about upgrading.

Most people give advice to others based on at least a little knowledge of the circumstances of the person to whom it is being given, and this was the case when I said to you that if I were you, I would not upgrade to another projector at this time, while at the same time touting the image of the RS1.

First, as I said in my previous post, your projector projects an admirable image. After seeing it for the first time, I would not have proposed the future comparison had I thought differently. To do such a thing would have been pointless.

Second, when I said what I said, it was after you telling me that you had three fresh tubes in you projector that showed no wear, that you also have three new tubes to replace the tubes in your projector, that you have fairly recently purchased a moomie card, and, most importantly, that you preferred the image of your projector to that of the RS1.

Third, I am a person who likes to get the most out of a dollar spent. That is why we continue to drive the ultra-reliable 1992 Honda Accord that my wife bought new, and that is why we chose to buy a NEC CRT when we did, rather than a much more expensive digital unit that projected an inferior image.

It was after considering all of the above (it took about three seconds of “deliberation”) that I said what I said that night, and, indeed, even though I much prefer the RS1’s image and will buy one when the price is right, I still advise the same thing to you today.

Even though you are well aware of your own circumstances, after reading what I said in my first post, you somehow came to the mistaken conclusion that I did not mean what I said.

But I have not written what I've written this time to convince you of anything. I have done so to give further context to a conversation that you have referred to, so that anyone who reads this thread can decide for him/herself whether what I advised to you was sincere or insincere.

......I compared a ruby in my last theater directly against my G70. My G70 pretty much wiped the floor with it for the most part other that shear light output.

It has ALWAYS been this way with digital.



Cliff,
I saw a Qualia a few months back and I thought "How can anyone put up with this crap and pay (was it 30k?) so much for it!! It was totally washed out. But then again I reminded myself.....a Ruby is like 4 generations and maybe 4 years old now, right?

Even a 2 year old 720p DLP from Optoma (H78DC3) looks way better than the Qualia.

Then I saw the second one from Sony ....Ruby. That was better! Much better, but it was too grainy for my taste. ....and I did not buy the usual argument about the source deficency etc etc.
All these SXRD based displays (FP and RP) look very grainy to my eyes.


Anyway, coming back to my point....the RS1 is the latest crop of these dPJs. Lets actually see it first. I am trying to get a demo locally.

BTW, is anyone showing up this weekend with a RS1??







White as hell and sheer light output that causes color saturation beyond your wildest dreams. :)


Really?
I feel the opposite... IMHO Too much light actually washes out the image and causes unsaturated colors.

How much shadow detail is very subjective though. A friend of mine got very hung up on a dark alley scene in Spiderman 1. Depending on brightness and gamma setup you would see more or less of the brick detail on the wall, even to the point that he would rather see more bricks and sacrifice the absolute black level. I said to him that maybe you're not supposed to see every single brick since it is a dark scene.

This is a shot from Lady in the Water. How much should you be able to see?

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/7741/lady1in7.jpg
http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/2752/lady2jq3.jpg
http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/3851/lady3lz4.jpg
http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/4610/lady4cv2.jpg

Obviously we don't want everything to be lost into the blackness but humans don't have nightvision either.

Jesse,

It's really simple. Put in the movie Finding Nemo and skip to the chapter when they drop the green goggles into the darkest depth of the ocean. This is a drop to "black as hell" scene to which a fish with a little glow bead on the front of him just lights up a small spot on the center of the screen. When you see that, pause the movie.

Now adjust your bias controls and brightness until you can see plankton all over the screen, rewind to the black out and tell me if your still getting true black.

Cliff

I too saw a Ruby a few months back and I thought "How can anyone put up with this crap and pay (was it 30k?) so much for it!! It was totally washed out. But then again I reminded myself.....a Ruby is like 4 generations and maybe 4 years old now, right?The Ruby is only 1 generation back and only 17 months old now...

Qualia 004 $25K MSRP (June 2003)
VPL-VW100 "Ruby" $10K MSRP (Dec 2005)
VPL-VW50 "Pearl" $5K MSRP (Nov 2006)

Re detail in black, some might say if its in the transfer I want to see it.

Ever watch the end of a golf match on TV when because of whatever it has become very dark at the event. a rain delay, yada yada. The announcers will say its very very dim out but tiger wants to finish. They have the camera man close down the aperture ada yada to show you are dark it is out there. You can't see much, but open the aperture, apply a little amplification and it looks light as noon!

Another example, I was at Keeneland Race Track throe weeks ago. It was cold, wet, and overcast. But on the video monitors yada yada, it looked light the sun was shinning. Really really bright. By no means was it reality. but I much preferred the extra brightness, better to see the horses ass than to think it was a dark donkey.

So let's take the scenes in U571. The detail i in the transfer. But what would a erson sitting where the camera was or where he director was see? Suppose the director really couldn't see but thought its OK there will be a lt mre detain in the film than what I saw. the viewer will be able to see that gauge real fine even though no one being filmed could see it. not a simple subject and no right answer. really the detail is unimportan. its a nice tough, improves realism yada yada, but just not important. However, we would have nothing to look at at a meet unless they made stuff like this.

So has anyone taken the challenge as of yet?

If not, that may prove that the reign of CRT may be ending...

Um... many of us have repeatedly offered. So far, frankly, the issue has been getting an RS-1 owner to cooperate ;)

Um... many of us have repeatedly offered. So far, frankly, the issue has been getting an RS-1 owner to cooperate ;)

Exactly. I'm dying to see this thing and no one is coming over. :(

Cliffy

Exactly. I'm dying to see this thing and no one is coming over. :(

Cliffy

You are going to find that the RS1 is sharper than your stack,it will have better fine detail chroma resolution IMO that head to head shows. Everything else about PQ will favor the G90 stack.

Art

And - herve - nice post indeed, but if it's true what is said, that Your CRT doesn't produce true fade to black - then I'm sure it will loose against MANY cheap digitals. You must go full fade to black and use gamma correction.

In mine (and others experiences) NEC projectors tend to crush black worse than some others. Therefore, you can choose to calibrate to see detail and have a digital-like FTB or crush detail for a good FTB. With an NEC gamma mods are a cheap and effective solution to this and most definately required.

So Herve, I would recommend you give your NEC some new life with one of the available gamma mod mechanisms.

Dave

You are going to find that the RS1 is sharper than your stack,it will have better fine detail chroma resolution IMO that head to head shows. Everything else about PQ will favor the G90 stack.

Art

I like sharp, but when it comes to film, I prefer it not to be too sharp, but, hell, I would still like to check it out!

When is somebody going to bring it over for me to see? :(

Cliffy

Maybe you have to take your stack over to their house, Cliffy. :D

I saw the JVC DLA-HD1 (European RS1) today.
Hmmm... Well...
If I calibrate my CRT to a decent gamma curve with decent grey scale tracking but without fade to black - then it will probably look very much like the JVC.
But everyone who has stated that it has deep black must have been wearing sun glasses when they viewed it, because it's nowhere near black.
It's a very good projector but it's nowhere near a CRT with full fade to black and calibrated 2.5 gamma and D65.
If it's compared to a calibrated CRT that doesn't have full fade to black it will probably win by it's higher output and slightly higher sharpness. It's not that much sharper really, not so much that it matters very much when watching HD DVDs anyway...
My five cents. :)

I bet Don will do it when things settle down for him.

Art

I bet Don will do it when things settle down for him.

Art

Yeah, poor guy, I feel for him.

Cliffy

In mine (and others experiences) NEC projectors tend to crush black worse than some others. Therefore, you can choose to calibrate to see detail and have a digital-like FTB or crush detail for a good FTB. With an NEC gamma mods are a cheap and effective solution to this and most definately required.

So Herve, I would recommend you give your NEC some new life with one of the available gamma mod mechanisms.

Dave

Which gamma solution are you using?

Who is this Don guy of which you speak???

Cliff it should not be long now, and yes things are crazy for me. I'd say it will only be a month tops, maybe sooner.

I love the look of the RS1 it's no G90 but it's a very watchable picture, with good blacks for a digital. It will not hold up to a stack and it's no Sim, but at way under %50 the cost, I would not expect it to. Still a very nice unit though....

Which gamma solution are you using?

Kim's.

Because the rest of your post already speaks volumes about its author, I will only respond to the portion of your post that I’ve quoted. .

Yes I am the kind of guy that is straight to the point, calls it as I see it and most importantly I don't lie, cheat or steal. I also work damned hard to take care of my family first and foremost and also to obtain the "toys" that gives us the little pleasures in life. My wife and daughter will wholeheartedly agree. This really does speak volumes about a man's integrity does it not? I am obviously not up to your standards as an author as you can see by my choice of words and writing style in those posts and the winks should also be an indication as to the seriousness of some of it. I basically just type what I'm thinking at the time, try to keep the facts straight and not spend hours trying to make some novel out of a post. So don't be so quick to judge a person based on a couple of posts on some forum.

Thanks,
B

Bradad, you post did sort of come off kind of questioning his integrity, even though I believed you werent really. I think its just a matter of a misunderstanding and (both of) you shouldnt let this thread, or each other's impressions of PQ, make it personal between the two of you.

We all are in different situations regarding our families and finances but one thing we surely share in common is the love of a large screen image. Thankfully, my kids love watching movies, too, and that definitely helps me (self) justify some of the probably unreasonable expenditures I take in regard to my HT.

I dont think, and hope, that either one of you meant to offend any negative sentiment to the other in regards to the picture quality of the RS1 and CRT but it looks like that you guys might be taking each others comments personally.

You guys gotta take what someone who feels so strongly about their setup with a grain of salt. We are all biased, except for Art 8), and we all know it. Life is too short and youll make it that you cant go to the forums to have fun talking trash because youll be so aggravated over what you thought someone said was a personal attack on you (when it was just a little (no harm eant) trash talking.)

Catdaddy67,

Thanks for your comments.

Let me give you guys a quick run down of my CRT projector setup to put this situation into perspective a little.

My XG isn't just some projector I bought with decent tubes, slapped on the ceiling and did an optical focus and convergence on.

I replaced all three tubes in the projector with new tubes, mechanically aligned the projector on my ceiling to the screen as best I could to minimize electronic correction therefore eliminating convergence drift, did a complete lens focus, aligned the deflection yokes, focus coils and the 2, 4 and 6 pole cpc magnets on each tube with the raster and image centered on the tubes, adjusted the focus pots for each tube, did electronic setup of phase, focus/astig and convergence, set up the G2 levels of each tube with a DMM and setting up the grey scale while making sure the tube cut offs were exact. So as you can imagine this took me many hours of research and work to do.

I obviously take great pride in my setup because I performed all the physical work on the projector myself and I'm not a pro. Nevertheless with the help of the very knowledgeable people here in the CRT projector forum, I think along with many others that have seen it running, have achieved an exceptional image with this XG. Many here on the forums have also commented on how great the screenshots looked that I've posted.

So I obviously didn't really appreciate Herve coming on here and saying that the RS1 is "superior" to the XG. By saying that he was most definitely questioning my integrity and it is in my opinion a gross overstatement that the RS1 is superior to an XG. I believe on my screen, the XG held its own very well against the RS1 and in some instances the XG is actually better. That my friends is pretty amazing especially considering that my XG is already eleven years old. I'm sure other NEC XG projector owners and people here on the forums that have seen XG's in action will agree with me that the image the XG throws is very, very nice and by no means is vastly inferior to the digitals that are out there.

Thanks for reading,
B

Call me crazy :D but I just got to see the JVC for the first time in the Our store yesterday as we got 5 projectors in and am quite impressed. It is the first digital I would buy. Cliff I am in Fort Wayne if you want to see one.

With that being said I would not own one myself. I just hooked up a Barco Data 1101 and did a comparison and the 1994 Barco is the clear winner. Thw JVC does not give me the feeling of being there and feel I need to sit much closer to the screen where the Barco just pops and has a more 3D effect.

I know that I don't own a G90 but I don't need one to see that crt still reign's supreme and I feel I am non biased since I make my living selling JVC and not Barco.

So I obviously didn't really appreciate Herve coming on here and saying that the RS1 is "superior" to the XG. By saying that he was most definitely questioning my integrity

Bradad -

Do you feel that anyone who disagrees with you is questioning your integrity?

Herve's account implied nothing about your integrity - he just merely feels the opposite you do. He gave very specific examples where and why he thought the RS1 image was better. I can understand why you may be defensive as he disagrees with almost every point you made (you're certainly justified, even encouraged, to make counter arguments), but not once did he say that you were wrong or disingenuous about your feelings.

In fact, I think that one could get the impression that in your first response to Herve, you're the one questioning someone's integrity.

I-Liang

P.S. Just for the record - I'm not challenging your integrity.

Im sure the XG is a nice projector and nowadays when people measure improvements its usually over such small increments over another. Im not sure about the increment of improvement, or comparison, between the RS1 and a CRT but what I do know is that the native CR gain from the RS1 to other digitals would not be considered a small increment.

I think thats where a lot of the buzz comes from, and probably for the first time CRTs are being challenged in their ability to portray close to true black (though likely not as black as CRT) but with the added bonus of having a much whiter white.

I dont think Herve was attacking your integrity in his post, either, btw.

Ok, maybe I should just put it this way:

Who is the ABSOLUTE DUMB ASS that is going to bring THE and NOT THEIR RS1 to my place so that I can LAUGH MY ASS OFF at any RS1 owner that thinks a G90 STACK IS WELL, SUCKY, compared to a RS1?

Cliffy

I've been reticent to jump in on this one before I had a chance to see with my own eyes whether all the hype surrounding the RS1 is justified or not.

Last weekend I had a chance to spend 10 or so hours viewing, and calibrating (within the limits of available adjustments), an RS1 a friend had just received and my conclusions are that, although it is a nice step up in quaity from it's nearest competition, it still falls short on a number of key elements I look for that gives you that 'suspension of disbelief' I have come to enjoy from my XG-1350.

Primary concern is the elevated absolute black level achievable. If the unit I saw is a typical example, and I have no reason to think otherwise, I can only assume that those extolling the "inky blacks' they believe the RS1 produces cannot have seen what a well set up CRT is able to achieve. Either that or those reviewers are deluding themselves. I estimate the RS1's best black level to be about equivalent to an approx 2 IRE window as shown on a correctly calibrated CRT. To simulate what I saw, simply turn your CRT projector's brightness control up a few notches so the raster is lit all the time. That will give you the effect. The resultant 'light grey mist' that pervades the picture is ever present and quite distacting during low average picture level scenes.

The other issue is the lack of appropriate calibration controls to tame the saturated primaries. You've likely read about this problem in some other threads and it is real. I measured the primaries with my ColorFacts/Eye-One Beamer combo, and the green and red were very well outside specs and confirmed what others had discovered. This manifests itself in a particularly vivid image, and while it may help to sell units to the uninitiated, it aint correct! The lack of controls to rectify this situation is simply unacceptable.

On the positve side, the unit had gobs of light, and as you would expect, is not lacking in resolution. Seeing the RS1 from a Toshiba HD-DVD source can be very alluring initially, but once the honeymoon is over, those two main annoyances described above come to bear, and make you realise this isn't a CRT beater by any stretch of the imagination.

Perhaps next year ... or the year after that .. or the .....

Cheers :)

Russ

I think thats where a lot of the buzz comes from, and probably for the first time CRTs are being challenged in their ability to portray close to true black (though likely not as black as CRT) but with the added bonus of having a much whiter white.

http://www.aximsite.com/boards/images/smilies/rolling2.gif

Ok, maybe I should just put it this way:

Who is the ABSOLUTE DUMB ASS that is going to bring THE and NOT THEIR RS1 to my place so that I can LAUGH MY ASS OFF at any RS1 owner that thinks a G90 STACK IS WELL, SUCKY, compared to a RS1?

Cliffy

I still say a G90 with a Torus screen will beat a G90 stack, PQ wise...

Anyways, I don't see stacking as a valid option for most. As such I am less interested in knowing how the JVS would compare to a stack.

That said, I am happy you are diggin' your setup!

I don't doubt that more picture was visible on the RS1 in that scene. Digitals elevate the black level bringing out some detail that should be hidden in darkness.
- Jesse S

I actually have to disagree with your statement to a point in which most CRT setups have "crushed" blacks wich lose a fair amount of detail on low IRE.

If setup properly and given the equipment used in a CRT setup with proper calibration can yeild AMAZING low end shadow detail performance while IMPROVING black level to ways never imagined before with CRT.
- Cliff

8)

If you can see it by elevating the black level its called "detail." If it disappears into the "darkness" that is called "black crush." Dont mistake the good thing for being bad and the bad thing for being good.


8)

Ok, maybe I should just put it this way:

Who is the ABSOLUTE DUMB ASS that is going to bring THE and NOT THEIR RS1 to my place so that I can LAUGH MY ASS OFF at any RS1 owner that thinks a G90 STACK IS WELL, SUCKY, compared to a RS1?

Cliffy


Oh Man I want to be that Dumb Ass, Cliff can I be your Dumb Ass.... If history holds I should be able to make you laugh your ass off with out making such insane claims.

A picture is a sum of all measurements, the RS1 has its good points, but it will not trump dah twins.

I still say a G90 with a Torus screen will beat a G90 stack, PQ wise...

Anyways, I don't see stacking as a valid option for most. As such I am less interested in knowing how the JVS would compare to a stack.

That said, I am happy you are diggin' your setup!

Thanks man. Mucho appreciated.

I've seen Torus, and the one benefit you will definitely get from using a single G90 on that screen will be a sharper image, but, all of the other trade off's that I do not like in regards to using a screen like that to me justified stacking.

Cliff

Oh Man I want to be that Dumb Ass, Cliff can I be your Dumb Ass.... If history holds I should be able to make you laugh your ass off with out making such insane claims.

A picture is a sum of all measurements, the RS1 has its good points, but it will not trump dah twins.

How about if we be each other's dumb asses big dog? :D ;)

Can't wait till you come home Don!

Hope the wife is doing well!

Cliff

"I'm your huckleberry"

Yep Melissa's doing well only about three months left till the big day.

How about if we be each other's dumb asses big dog? :D ;)
Can't wait till you come home Don!Hey, get a ROOM, you two!! :D :D

Oooops!!!! :o

Thanks for correcting me Clarence.

I was refering to the Qualia (I can attest that because the owner mentioned he paid something like 30 grand for it)


gotta edit the original post now.


The Ruby is only 1 generation back and only 17 months old now...

Qualia 004 $25K MSRP (June 2003)
VPL-VW100 "Ruby" $10K MSRP (Dec 2005)
VPL-VW50 "Pearl" $5K MSRP (Nov 2006)

TODAY, reading your post, I have finally got this suspicion answered...

Stacking makes the image softer!

When I saw Arts' ........I thought so, I talked to people about it. I got totally dismissed. One guy even told me that there was something wrong with my eyes and even told me that since I wear glasses I cant see as well!

And knowing how much Cliff loves his Stack, this statement from him validates my suspicion 100%

Thanks Cliff!

Tell you what... Gentlemen prefer blondes :D :D
...ooops ! Blends... I meant

Thanks man. Mucho appreciated.

I've seen Torus, and the one benefit you will definitely get from using a single G90 on that screen will be a sharper image, but, all of the other trade off's that I do not like in regards to using a screen like that to me justified stacking.

Cliff

Yeah I'll bring the RS1, should have one soon maybe next week maybe end of the month... but soon.

TODAY, reading your post, I have finally got this suspicion answered...

Stacking makes the image softer!

When I saw Arts' ........I thought so, I talked to people about it. I got totally dismissed. One guy even told me that there was something wrong with my eyes and even told me that since I wear glasses I cant see as well!

And knowing how much Cliff loves his Stack, this statement from him validates my suspicion 100%

Thanks Cliff!

Tell you what... Gentlemen prefer blondes :D :D
...ooops ! Blends... I meant

Raj,

By all means trust me when I say that the amount of resolution lost when stacking is so minimal that when all of the other factors that are positives in regards BLAST AWAY any thought that your losing a "touch" of rez.

Put it this way and this will be the best way to sum it all up:

Single G90: Scanlines at 1080P

Stacked G90's: Scanlines get overlapped. Not a big deal at all. Trust me. :)

My vision is incredibly good and there is no loss of detail at 1080P to the point that you look at the screen and say "this is soft".

No way.

Cliff

Possible stupid question but has anyone tried comparing the RS1 with a CRT using a lens filter to match the lumen output of both projectors?. Perhaps the RS1's black levels could closely match a CRT projector if they had matching ligh output, or not. I would think this would make for a farer comparison aswell.

Possible stupid question but has anyone tried comparing the RS1 with a CRT using a lens filter to match the lumen output of both projectors?. Perhaps the RS1's black levels could closely match a CRT projector if they had matching ligh output, or not. I would think this would make for a farer comparison aswell.

No not stupid at all and that would be a Neutral Density filter, as well as maybe a D65 calibration, low lamp mode and mounting the thing as far away from the screen as possible (which also gives you more contrast), but if you did then nobody would be able to say "Gee it sure was bright, but the blacks really sucked", which I guess would leave them with just "The blacks really sucked".

Ken

Yeah, because it still wouldn't be able to go black. :)
It's not even close to full black out of the box. Not even close... People who say that haven't seen a correctly set up CRT with full FTB.

Are you guys saying that when CRT projectors fade to full black the projector emits virtually no light?. I didn't think CRT could do full black with video, not without crushing the image somewhat.

http://www.avforums.com:80/forums/showthread.php?t=516250
(A Barco G808 owner's review of the JVC DLA-HD1)

http://www.avforums.com:80/forums/showthread.php?t=516250
(A Barco G808 owner's review of the JVC DLA-HD1)

His haloing and bad space scene as well as lack of detail on the guard is because his CRT is air coupled and has older electronics, not sharp tubes, etc (which is why the going rate for his PJ is less then 1/3 the JVC).

But in the end, it is kind of a stupid comparison as an outright comparison. It is a PJ that sells for over $5000 compared to a PJ that goes for less than $1500. I'm not sure it could even stand up to a late model 8" LC (XG LC, G70, Cine8 Onyx) costing half as much let alone a 9" costing about the same. But from what I've seen, his conclusion that if you value laziness over picture quality, you might prefer it to a 9" is probably pretty close.

If he wanted it even close to comparable, he should have put some HD144s and mods in the PJ and new tubes. Or, he could sell his and get a late model 8" LC. Either of these options would cost him less than the RS-1.

Apples to apples comparisons are all that matter. People don't buy a Mitsubishi 3000U because they think it is better than the RS-1, they buy it because they only have that much allocated to spend on this luxury. So, just as an RS-1 to Mitsu 3000U would be a pretty stupid comparison, a BG808 vs. RS-1 is a pretty stupid comparison.

EDIT: should have also added, for less than $200 he could gamma mod the CRT are really wipe the floor with the RS-1 on FTBs.

Dave

In mine (and others experiences) NEC projectors tend to crush black worse than some others. Therefore, you can choose to calibrate to see detail and have a digital-like FTB or crush detail for a good FTB. With an NEC gamma mods are a cheap and effective solution to this and most definately required.

So Herve, I would recommend you give your NEC some new life with one of the available gamma mod mechanisms.

Dave

What cheap Gamma mods? Tell me more.

What cheap Gamma mods? Tell me more.

Kim's for one. Also, Moome's HDMI card also has a curve that is good for NECs. If you use a scaler like a lumagen, you already have this functionality.

Dave

Are you guys saying that when CRT projectors fade to full black the projector emits virtually no light?. I didn't think CRT could do full black with video, not without crushing the image somewhat.

A healthy CRT with external or internal gamma adjustment (from a scaler, internal board etc.) and with D65 and 2.5 overall gamma and full Fade To Black looks so good that any digital pj will weep if it has to be compared to the CRT. :)

The RS1 certainly isn't anywhere near as dramatic in it's PQ as the above.

Actually, I think the Optoma HD-81 (DLP) looks better than the JVC and it has been out longer. It has much more ansi contrast, better MTF, NO misconvergence at all etc.
The JVC also suffers from light spill that totally destroys "black" scenes. The one I saw also had the weirdest light rectangles at both sides of the image area... Very strange. I don't know if more samples have that problem but it sure was extremely distracting.

A healthy CRT with external or internal gamma adjustment (from a scaler, internal board etc.) and with D65 and 2.5 overall gamma and full Fade To Black looks so good that any digital pj will weep if it has to be compared to the CRT. :)

The RS1 certainly isn't anywhere near as dramatic in it's PQ as the above.

Actually, I think the Optoma HD-81 (DLP) looks better than the JVC and it has been out longer. It has much more ansi contrast, better MTF, NO misconvergence at all etc.
The JVC also suffers from light spill that totally destroys "black" scenes. The one I saw also had the weirdest light rectangles at both sides of the image area... Very strange. I don't know if more samples have that problem but it sure was extremely distracting.

Is there something you need to set on an HTPC for 2.5 gamma? I tried using the non-linear ramp in powerstrip but it doesn't apply to VMR9.

Unmm, yes it does. Powerstrip gamma applies to VMR9. It's the Overlay that it doesn't apply to.

Didn't work for me. To make sure it was working I pulled the gamma way up so it was uber washed out. When I load theatertek the UI is all washed out but as soon as the video plays it's back to normal (VMR9 fullscreen renderless mode).

Hence why I'm asking.

A healthy CRT with external or internal gamma adjustment (from a scaler, internal board etc.) and with D65 and 2.5 overall gamma and full Fade To Black looks so good that any digital pj will weep if it has to be compared to the CRT. :)

The RS1 certainly isn't anywhere near as dramatic in it's PQ as the above.

Actually, I think the Optoma HD-81 (DLP) looks better than the JVC and it has been out longer. It has much more ansi contrast, better MTF, NO misconvergence at all etc.
The JVC also suffers from light spill that totally destroys "black" scenes. The one I saw also had the weirdest light rectangles at both sides of the image area... Very strange. I don't know if more samples have that problem but it sure was extremely distracting.

What does the RS in RS1 stand for?. Just ask a CRT owner, he'll tell you.
Just kidding, I'm trying to convince myself not to go the CRT route for setup reasons but it is proving difficult. Sounds like it might be worth the effort.

Is there something you need to set on an HTPC for 2.5 gamma? I tried using the non-linear ramp in powerstrip but it doesn't apply to VMR9.

Sorry, I'm really no good att HTPC:s, but there are loads of other people who are so... :)

What cheap Gamma mods? Tell me more.

The most popular (and the only one I know of) "gamma mod" was designed by Scott (tse) of VDC. It is being used and implemented by others in transcoders and possibly some other devices.

Scott has freely offered it, but has only asked to be recognized as being the originator of it. props are in order.

Another member of AVS loaned me his Tse gamma board. The odd thing is that on my NEC 6PG, using the board boosts the drive level a very large amount and I need to cut the voltage on my Extron to bring it back to a reasonable level. Also, it seems to push green white balance so my overall whites look greenish unless I redo the Kelvin setting. I also had to cut my NEC brightness from 51 down to 38 to re-attain full FTB. Even so, the gamma seems boosted too much. So not the greatest results on an NEC PG

Another member of AVS loaned me his Tse gamma board. The odd thing is that on my NEC 6PG, using the board boosts the drive level a very large amount and I need to cut the voltage on my Extron to bring it back to a reasonable level. Also, it seems to push green white balance so my overall whites look greenish unless I redo the Kelvin setting. I also had to cut my NEC brightness from 51 down to 38 to re-attain full FTB. Even so, the gamma seems boosted too much. So not the greatest results on an NEC PG

The gamma of tse's circuit is boosted too much for many projectors and will result in you seeing banding and compression artifacts that you would not normally see.

When Kim implemented tse's circuit, he made the gamma adjustable to allow the curve to be fine tuned to the projector. Unfortunately, adding any gamma will still push peak voltage above .7Vpp.

Dave

The gamma of tse's circuit is boosted too much for many projectors and will result in you seeing banding and compression artifacts that you would not normally see.

When Kim implemented tse's circuit, he made the gamma adjustable to allow the curve to be fine tuned to the projector. Unfortunately, adding any gamma will still push peak voltage above .7Vpp.

Dave

Whatever Kim did with it was fine, but it does not delete Scott of being the originator of it. And if you followed his post on his gamma R&D, he covered everything about it. To include how to make changes to the gamma curve. And I'm sure if he had more time to devote to it, he could have put the pot on it.

Considering the things that he was working on at the time on his job, and the fact that he was still able to spit that gamma circuit out was remarkable. The guy was doing some serious design and redesign work when I was down there. Yet, he still had some time to contribute to those Ampro folk :rolleyes:, and many others that were seeking technical advancements to our aging CRT technology. Or maybe it's just me. I'll never forget the time and efforts he spent with me to further what i'm doing. And I try to be always mindful to express my appreciation, but not only for what I got from him and others (Videograbber, wts, Tom Rosback, Ile, John Hyman and the other EE's), but to be mindful to give them their props for contributing on the forum, and being a part of this great hobby. I'm not trying to take anything away from Kim. I just would like to see all props in order, and that also includes Kim, which you seems to be very mindful to do.

And no, Christopher Columbus did not discover America..

OK. But Christopher Columbus did discover the CRT.

And no, Christopher Columbus did not discover America..

Actually he did, though he wasn't the first. :D

Scott's really amazing... the amount of Ampro trivia he has stored is just insane, and his ability to pull obscure schematics from his secret stash is great :)

Whatever Kim did with it was fine, but it does not delete Scott of being the originator of it. And if you followed his post on his gamma R&D, he covered everything about it. To include how to make changes to the gamma curve. And I'm sure if he had more time to devote to it, he could have put the pot on it.

Considering the things that he was working on at the time on his job, and the fact that he was still able to spit that gamma circuit out was remarkable. The guy was doing some serious design and redesign work when I was down there. Yet, he still had some time to contribute to those Ampro folk :rolleyes:, and many others that were seeking technical advancements to our aging CRT technology. Or maybe it's just me. I'll never forget the time and efforts he spent with me to further what i'm doing. And I try to be always mindful to express my appreciation, but not only for what I got from him and others (Videograbber, wts, Tom Rosback, Ile, John Hyman and the other EE's), but to be mindful to give them their props for contributing on the forum, and being a part of this great hobby. I'm not trying to take anything away from Kim. I just would like to see all props in order, and that also includes Kim, which you seems to be very mindful to do.

And no, Christopher Columbus did not discover America..

My post in no way contradicted what you said, nor was it intended to. I was commenting on another post from someone trying to get better low level gamma performance out of scott's circuit and found scotts original fixed curve not suited for his projector (as I also found).

Yes, I fully appreciate the work that Scott did on this--and never said anything to the contrary. Prior to Scott's design, the only people that got to take advantage of this low level gamma "boost" were HTPC users and users of good scalers. Scott's design made this more generally available, but we still lacked a product with it. I'm glad Kim included it with his transcoder and made it adjustable. The final improvment I'd love to see is an adjustable one where regardless of the adjustment, the peak voltage remains at .7Vpp.

Dave

Hey, I'm just glad there are still people willing to MAKE new mods for our old reliables ;) That goes for all of them... Kim, John, Moome, Mike, Greg, etc;