I spoke with a Panasonic engineer yesterday and no HDD models are planned for 2007. He cited poor sales demand as the reason. And that the same held true for some other manufacturers. That the number of interested people on this forum for example were a very small percentage of the market. He felt that most people would rather spend about $10/month for a cable DVR and possibly buy a less expensive non-HDD recorder if they wanted to save a program. I have to admit that was my line of reasoning too. The cable DVR would have dual tuners and also record HD programs. I do mainly time shifting and burn very few programs to DVD-R.

However with digital tuners now in some DVD recorders, I could go for a new unit with HDD. But it would have to have a QAM tuner also. So it would sort of be like a cable DVR. I want to be able to tune in an HD program & record in 16:9, even if it is recorded in SD quality. At least the source would be better than analog cable.

Mike

I spoke with a Panasonic engineer yesterday and no HDD models are planned for 2007. He cited poor sales demand as the reason. And that the same held true for some other manufacturers. That the number of interested people on this forum for example were a very small percentage of the market. He felt that most people would rather spend about $10/month for a cable DVR and possibly buy a less expensive non-HDD recorder if they wanted to save a program. I have to admit that was my line of reasoning too. The cable DVR would have dual tuners and also record HD programs. I do mainly time shifting and burn very few programs to DVD-R.

However with digital tuners now in some DVD recorders, I could go for a new unit with HDD. But it would have to have a QAM tuner also. So it would sort of be like a cable DVR. I want to be able to tune in an HD program & record in 16:9, even if it is recorded in SD quality. At least the source would be better than analog cable.

Mike

And what was this person's position in marketing? Just because the engineers are developing it doesn't mean its not in the works...maybe next year?

It's not just $10 a month for the DVR from the cable company. You also have to consider the $50 a month increase in the cable bill to upgrade to the digital package. No thanks. I just want to record the OTA or QAM locals. I think the true reason is due to potential Tivo copyright infringement.

This is a market waiting to be tapped. If the existing competitors drop out, a new competitor will come along. Hopefully we won't have to wait too much longer for the HD HDD recorders...

The problem with cable DVRs is that archiving must be done in real time if you want to burn a DVD-R disc using a non-HDD recorder. Plus, unless you use a RAM disc recorder editing is difficult if not impossible for most. IMO anyone who is considering a DVD recorder should jump on any remaining Panasonic HDD models you can find (E55H or E75H). You may even find them discounted as discontinued models.

I spoke with a Panasonic engineer yesterday and no HDD models are planned for 2007. He cited poor sales demand as the reason. And that the same held true for some other manufacturers. That the number of interested people on this forum for example were a very small percentage of the market. He felt that most people would rather spend about $10/month for a cable DVR and possibly buy a less expensive non-HDD recorder if they wanted to save a program. I have to admit that was my line of reasoning too. The cable DVR would have dual tuners and also record HD programs. I do mainly time shifting and burn very few programs to DVD-R.I am very much on-board with that opinion. I have long felt that all the speculative fuss about MPAA restrictions, Tivo patents etc. was a tempest in the teapot. The majors have always charged a very high premium for a HDD recorder over the companion model without HDD -- they were pricing for value-in-use. I think they have discovered that there simply is not a large enough market for HDD-recorders at that price-point for them to be interested in. It looks like they have ceded the market to chinese/koreans.

With the strangle-lock cable now has with encrypted digital, a recorder with a QAM tuner is much less useful than a rented DVR, especially for those people who want to watch/timeshift those encrypted sports channels they are paying for. That further narrows the pool of parties interested in HDD-DVDRs to OTA users -- by all accounts a small market.

Now we have the chinese/koreans firing their 2007 opening shots in this market with their pending introductions of 160GB HDD-DVDRs for under $300. They may be crap, but they have set the bar for pricing in the mass market. Can anyone see the majors wanting to compete in this space? I can't, except by re-branding and trying to squeeze a few extra shekels out of customers for name-brand recognition (hello, Sony?). I hope my E-85 lasts forever.

With the strangle-lock cable now has with encrypted digital, a recorder with a QAM tuner is much less useful than a rented DVR, especially for those people who want to watch/timeshift those encrypted sports channels they are paying for.

When cable final does pull the plug on analog service, will this still be true or will their current analog packages be offered "in the clear" with a QAM tuner? I personally like the fact that I don't have to have a "box" (or cable card) plugged into my TV to watch shows....I guess that's why I'm an OTA only type of guy (see my moniker)

Hmmm...I guess we will have to wait and see.

I don't buy the argument.

sure, a HDD-based tuner is just a cable DVR for the clear channels. However, a lot of households do not use cable DVRs for a variety of reasons. so if someone can produce a "Cable DVR" that tunes also to OTA and does scheduled recording, and can be used in all markets, there is a sizeable market for it.

there is something strange here that such a device hasn't taken off. The marginal cost of putting a cheapo HDD in place of a DVDR is next to nothing. it beats me why this hasn't taken off.

I don't buy the argument.

sure, a HDD-based tuner is just a cable DVR for the clear channels. However, a lot of households do not use cable DVRs for a variety of reasons. so if someone can produce a "Cable DVR" that tunes also to OTA and does scheduled recording, and can be used in all markets, there is a sizeable market for it.

there is something strange here that such a device hasn't taken off. The marginal cost of putting a cheapo HDD in place of a DVDR is next to nothing. it beats me why this hasn't taken off.

My thoughts exactly.

Something else to remember is the date this summer (July 2007) where cable companies will be required to allow subscribers to use their own tuners and that all tuners support CableCARD technology. Also OCAP (OpenCable Application Platform) devices should be out later this year. Perhaps the manufacturers are waiting to announce new HDD devices which support CableCARD and OCAP instead of releasing devices now which don't support either technology. :confused:

I don't buy the argument.

sure, a HDD-based tuner is just a cable DVR for the clear channels. However, a lot of households do not use cable DVRs for a variety of reasons. so if someone can produce a "Cable DVR" that tunes also to OTA and does scheduled recording, and can be used in all markets, there is a sizeable market for it.

there is something strange here that such a device hasn't taken off. The marginal cost of putting a cheapo HDD in place of a DVDR is next to nothing. it beats me why this hasn't taken off.

I think J6P is just overwhelmed by what they perceive as an extraordinarily complex device. Salesmen have told me that most who buy them return them because they can't figure them out. Apparently these are the same people who can't set the clock on their VCR. And I admit when I first got my E80H I was daunted a bit, in part because I found the manual difficult to decipher. But I got over the learning curve pretty quickly and now I don't know how I ever lived without this great device. I did have to replace the HDD after a year, but the replacement has been good for over 2 years now and I know in the future I can just keep replacing it so the thing should last a long time. I don't know but I suspect replacing the burner (if it ever needs it) will be just as easy (I hope). I think it is great that I can repair such a terrific product. OTOH I doubt if I could ever repair a VCR.

there is something strange here that such a device hasn't taken off. The marginal cost of putting a cheapo HDD in place of a DVDR is next to nothing. it beats me why this hasn't taken off.I think Kelson hit on it when he said "up 'till now, price". I know that all of the "cheapo" DVD/DVR's in my local Walmart are never in stock. I imagine the Philips with the ATSC tuner won't be for long, either. In contrast, BB, CC and Sears ALWAYS had plenty of the more expensive, better brands in stock, and even had a ton of them in the open box section. People probably bought them at those places, just to test them out, and then returned them and probably went over to Walmart and bought the cheapy. All of these stores (in my "self-contained", sort of town) are within a few blocks of each other. This might sound unlikely, but I'm pretty in touch with how the general population in my area thinks about those kinds of things.

I don't think the top tier brands took off enough because of their limitations for the price. A lot of people have satellite and digital cable now, and these devices were always sorely lacking in their compatability and convienience. Who wants to spend that much on something where you have to program both the recorder and outboard tuner manually, when you can pay the same or a little more for the provider's DVR, which will work with the service seamlessly? I can't tell you of all the times that I've read of people here and elsewhere that were disappointed to find that the expensive model they just bought with the "free, TVGOS service" wouldn't work with their cable or satellite tuners.

And, this may be a stretch, but I think that many of the kind of people who only can or want to pay for limited or extended basic cable are probably the types to even moreso find those units less attractive (for the price).

Like I said (other than the RCA's, which seem to hang around longer), the Walmart by me sells all the cheap model DVR's as soon as they get them in.

The other problem is as of about a month ago all new recorders must contain an ATSC tuner if they contain an NTSC tuner.

I don't think Panasonic wanted to increase the price of their units to account for this.

Cable DVRs are wonderful for people who have cable; some of us are OTA and NTSC baseband video input only.

When cable final does pull the plug on analog service, will this still be true or will their current analog packages be offered "in the clear" with a QAM tuner? I personally like the fact that I don't have to have a "box" (or cable card) plugged into my TV to watch shows....I guess that's why I'm an OTA only type of guy (see my moniker)

Hmmm...I guess we will have to wait and see.

I agree there whole-heartedly. I have Standard Analog cable. I boost and split the signal to 4 different DVD Recorders. Often there is nothing I care to watch. But often there are several things I want to see, all coming on at the same time. If I have to use a cable box, I can only record 1 channel at a time and it will defeat my purposes of having cable, which is to record what I like and watch it when I want to.

So, if I have only the option of digital cable, and that limits me to one channel at a time, then I will drop cable and go OTA.

I agree there whole-heartedly. I have Standard Analog cable. I boost and split the signal to 4 different DVD Recorders. Often there is nothing I care to watch. But often there are several things I want to see, all coming on at the same time. If I have to use a cable box, I can only record 1 channel at a time and it will defeat my purposes of having cable, which is to record what I like and watch it when I want to.

So, if I have only the option of digital cable, and that limits me to one channel at a time, then I will drop cable and go OTA.No, digital cable does not limit you to recording 1 channel at a time. Your cable co will be happy to rent you as many STBs as you need to feed each of your devices. That's the whole point of their encryption -- to realize their business model of charging you a fee for every device you have hooked up to their service. I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks cable will not shut down analog ASAP, or who thinks cable will ever offer anything in the clear that they don't have to is dreaming.

I share the same thoughts as FullOnShred and am anti-cablebox. It defeats the reason for having a cable ready TV and/or recorder in the first place. Cable ready stuff has been around for years and having a STB screws up everything. I have analog cable which also carries the local channels in clear QAM format. So my TV can tune these in, however recording has to be from analog channels. Having a DVD recorder with a QAM tuner would allow me to time-shift the 16:9 HD programs, presuming it records in SD in 16:9 format.

I had Comcast Digital Classic for a while just so I could watch the SciFi channel. Had to use the digital STB for that. I just turned in the STB as was costing $12/month for basically the one channel that interested me. If I wanted a HD STB it would be $18/month. A DVR was $12/month by itself. And if I wanted to get SciFi again, then another $12/month.

Since I mainly time-shift, I need QAM and would like a HDD for capacity. Perhaps at this point in time I should just get the cable DVR at about $144/year. This would be about the same as buying another Panny DVD recorder with QAM for lets say $150. IOW, a year is the break even point. Then maybe in 2008 we'll have more DVD recorders to choose from.

I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks cable will not shut down analog ASAP, or who thinks cable will ever offer anything in the clear that they don't have to is dreaming.

That's probably what they want to do, but there are 2 very important questions:

1) Will they be able to supply enough STB's for everyone that wants one? This would not only include current analog only customers, but customers who have secondary, and third and fourth sets in the house that are right now analog only. I don't think that the STB manufacturers could produce enough quick enough, if the switch was just flipped all at once.

2) How many of these customers would decide to give satellite a try? Since they have to use a STB with cable now on every TV, why not give satellite a try. I bet that a lot of analog only customers and customers with digital and additional sets have been avoiding satellite just because of the STB reason. When forced to use a STB, why not try it.

In the long run shutting it down ASAP (I.e. Feb 2009) would probably cost the cable companies more in lost revenue (by losing customers) than gained revenue in STB rentals.

5 tv's here plus multiple dvr's = would cost me close to $100 a month just for STB's :(

I already pay $48 just for basic cable

...or who thinks cable will ever offer anything in the clear that they don't have to is dreaming.

Yes, this would be ideal for them, but..

Why are the cable companies not doing this now? Cable boxes that encrypt analog signals have been around as long as the premium channels have been around so why don't they encrypt everything now? Maybe because not everyone can afford to pay for this level of "service" so they offer the non-premiums (even a minimal amount) unencrypted without needing a box for those customers that can pay a little for something.

Charging allot for a service, more than the populace can pay for will end with the company losing customers, in mass. So they have to offer a lower alternative. Sure they could encrypt everything, make everyone rent a box for every TV, but can they do this at a low enough cost that people can afford and for the company to make money. So far doesn't look like it since they have unscrambled channels now for people to view.

Will this change just because they are sending digital signals out? Maybe, but I don't look for this to happen unless they can come up with an afforable package, then what does it matter?

Does $48 a month for basic cable qualify as "little or nothing"?

Not picking on you Falco.

I have no need for more channels, I have to take 20% out because they are not in english, then after midnight another 20-30% of the remaining channels are infomercials.

With OTA HD I will be spending even less time on cable.

Wish a la carte was reality, I would probably be under 10 channels :)

The Price for a EH55 just went up $500 :D Looks like the new Philips is going to be the best bet

Circuit City still has the EH75 available at all ten stores within an 80 mile distance from me, now at $419 including a $20 rebate for online orders only (but which can be picked up the same day at any store that has them in stock).

At that price, I can see why a lot of people would hesitate to buy it over a non-HDD model which can be had for $200 or less from CC.

The main advantages of a HDD are (a) for editing and (b) for timeshifting. But coming from a VCR where you can't really edit, losing (a) isn't an overall net loss. And it does take some time to learn how to edit effectively. Many people apparently don't consider it worth the trouble. And people who use cable or satellite can get similar or better timeshifting capabilities with a proprietary DVR that they can either buy at a heavily subsidized price or rent with a small monthly fee (not caring that those fees add up in the long term).

Several people have mentioned, and I always thought, that cable companies had to offer a basic level of service to each community at an affordable rate, and it was "regulated" by the communities they served.

I just got an increase in my basic cable and asked the city admin. person who USED to do the "regulating" and he said he has no say ever since 1998, when the Feds DE-regulated the cable companies.

Now, they just have to go by some Fed. guidelines on how MUCH they can raise rates...not whether they can or not.

I won't get any competition in my area either 'cause it's too small a market...the city admin. invited 13 companies to bid recently and got no response.

I think all of you each have a correct piece of this puzzle.

I always wondered if the stacks of open-box recorders at CC were returns due to needed repairs or due to people that couldn't figure out how to use them. Reading this forum, I started to realize it was possibly both, plus a third reason being incompatibility with their satellite or cable.

As for the manufacturers looking at profits, recording and archiving shows probably does fall into the area of a small niche hobbiest. And on the consumer side, I've noted that a good percentage of my friends that used to have killer stereos at home, have now gone to cheapo Korean HTIB units for everything. Out of a hundred friends and acquaintances, I only know one other person with a DVD recorder (with or without HDD).

A magazine editor asked the question a few years ago how many $5 to $12 per month add-ons that the average consumer can continue to absorb (cell phones, text messaging, Sat radio, internet, tv cable, and on and on...). The price of basic cable keeps creeping higher and digital cable with STB's are a pretty good sized hit in the budget. I've been archiving a lot of old stuff with my EH75V but when it dies in a year or three, I wonder whether I will be watching enough TV to feel if I need a replacement? I can now buy certain favorite shows on high quality studio released DVD's and with extras. Finally, will DRM (studios/Congress) even allow recording in a few years anyway?

I suspect that we are seeing the end of high quality dvd recorders with HDD's for several years. Maybe in five years or so, something similar will appear, but we may have just gone through a golden age. You should note that although we have an amazing amount of variety in content in this info age, there are still a lot of compatibility issues (software, hardware, and legal) that keep things far more complicated than anyone would have expected 10 years ago.

IMHO, I really think the biggest issue is just lack of market size for this product family. And that market keeps getting smaller thanks to the penetration of digital cable. No question that most of the viewing public subscribes to cable and these things don't really play nice with encrypted digital cable. If you want to use a DVDR with encrypted digital cable and still have the same functionality you had with unencrypted CATV, you have to bite the bullet and rent a separate STB just for the DVDR and use the ir blaster kludge. So tell me -- do I rent a pair of STB's for my TV and my DVDR -or- do I rent a single dual-tuner DVR instead for esssentially the same price and get greater functionality. That choice is obvious to me if I had cable.

I think the way things are going the main market for these things is going to be the OTA viewer. That is a much smaller chunk of the viewing public, one that will be served by the chinese/koreans with their low-end throw-away models. I think we're in for some pain the next couple of years, the same as we are in now with regards to chinese-made DVD-R media (will Panasonic become the Taiyo-Yuden of DVD recorders). Not a pleasant thought.

Well, I'm with some of you guys grousing! ;) My basic analog cable is now over $50 -earlier they took Sci-Fi away, and now HBO is digital only, and so on. It's ridiculous. I have been archiving as much off to DVD as I can and have quite a library of DVD's to watch. I joined Netflix towards the end of last year, so more DVD's in the queue (ha ha) there. I have a lot of commercial DVD's I've purchased (series especially), and recently I've been finding some interesting foreign stuff on the net.

I hate the <expletives deleted> cable companies. There is no competition and the analog rates have creeped up from about $20 to over $50 here since dereg. I find I almost never watch "real time" TV anymore (I have several ReplayTV's), so I'm very close to saying the hell with them.

I don't mind waiting to watch a good series on DVD. There's little on cable that I will miss (well, some comedies maybe). And I predict alternative sources will develop for us "outlaws" who resist the iron hand of DRM being shoved down our throats. (I'm not talking about piracy - I'm talking about legitimate rights being curtailed.)

Anyway, I've about had it with the cable companies. I have OTA HDTV (but just a few channels, of course) so I may end up just with that. So maybe I'll listen to more music and read a few more books. ;)

When the day comes and I chuck it, I will dearly relish not paying the b*st*rds that $50 a month. ;)

Ala carte cable would be great for the consumer, but I doubt we'll see it anytime soon. As with most things these days, the Corps are firmly in control.

Maybe people will start making their own shows and movies and sharing them and we can kiss 'em all goodbye. ;)

My basic analog cable is now over $50 -earlier they took Sci-Fi away, and now HBO is digital only, and so on. It's ridiculous.Are you able to have satellite? You can get Sci-Fi with either E*'s Top 100 or Latino Dos package for much less than that (unless you need to run it to a bunch of TV's, of course).

My thoughts exactly.

Something else to remember is the date this summer (July 2007) where cable companies will be required to allow subscribers to use their own tuners and that all tuners support CableCARD technology. Also OCAP (OpenCable Application Platform) devices should be out later this year. Perhaps the manufacturers are waiting to announce new HDD devices which support CableCARD and OCAP instead of releasing devices now which don't support either technology. :confused:

Can you explain what an "Open Cable Application Platform" device is and what it will do?

THANK YOU.
MISSY QUICK

Can you explain what an "Open Cable Application Platform" device is and what it will do?

THANK YOU.
MISSY QUICK

Basically it should allow ANY box that supports OCAP to work with a cable company's system. It will handle decryption of encrypted channels, PPV, onDemand, etc. You will no longer be required to obtain a receiver from the cable company (but you could still rent one from them if you wanted). Instead, you would be able to buy your own receiver (which creates a huge market for CE companies). Then you would use CableCARD or downloadable security from the cable company.

The OCAP specification is intended to enable the developers of interactive television services and applications to design such products so that they will run successfully on any cable television system in North America, independent of set-top or television receiver hardware or operating system software choices.

The OCAP specification enables manufacturers and retail distributors of set-tops, television receivers or other devices to build and to sell attractive and capable devices to consumers that will support all services delivered by cable operators to devices currently available to consumers via lease from cable operators.
- from the Open Cable website

I'm no expert but this site will fill you in on the details:

OpenCable OCAP website (http://www.opencable.com/ocap/ocap.html)

I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks cable will not shut down analog ASAP, or who thinks cable will ever offer anything in the clear that they don't have to is dreaming.

I guess you were correct. It seems that Comcast in Chicago (http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-0704050706apr06,0,2945392.story?coll=chi-business-hed) has decided to screw all their analog only customers. They are turning off analog for everything but the locals.

So, they are giving each customer a "Free" STB for the primary TV (no fee increase) and all other TV's forcing the customer to pay additional monthly fees. It says by the end of 2008 they will have no analog at all, thus making customers that still have analog only sets go black before the OTA folks.

It will be interesting to see what kind of backlash this has their their customers. The two major complaints they should expect from their customers right away:

1) You mean I have to pay more tomorrow for the same service I'm getting today.? I want to watch ESPN (name your cable channel) in more than one room and now it will cost me more?

2) I liked it when I could record TLC (name your cable channel) on my VCR while I watched Discovery (name your cable channel) at the same time. Now I need an extra box to do that? This will cost me more?

3) Thank you, please cancel my account.

It will be fun to watch this :)

But Panasonic is making an upcoming dual-tuner DVR for Comcast (no DVD burner).

I don't know what the terms of the agreement with Comcast are, but how hard would it be for Panasonic to insert a DVD burner module into an existing device? :-)

Details on the upcoming Panasonic/Comcast DVR in the HDTV/HDTV Recorders forum: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=640348 (Read Page 6 for the latest news, some of the earliest posts are from the earlier development/rumor stages)

I don't know what the terms of the agreement with Comcast are, but how hard would it be for Panasonic to insert a DVD burner module into an existing device?I seriously don't think it would be very realistic to expect you'll ever see such a device available from a provider.

I seriously don't think it would be very realistic to expect you'll ever see such a device available from a provider.

We're not expecting such a device from a provider...but for the device to be sold at the retail level. Cable companies will be required as of July 2007 to support 3rd party receivers. It's fair to expect some company to begin selling such receivers as it represents a huge market that won't go untapped.

If you just want to purchase your own box, you may be able to do that soon. As Morrison notes above, FCC mandate (also known as the "integration ban") prohibits most cable systems from purchasing new STBs and DVRs with integrated encryption systems (CAS) in July.

Beginning in July, most cable companies must purchase new STBs and DVRs using CableCard. These boxes aren't the traditional unidirectional CableCard products we've seen in the past; these CableCard products feature full bidirectional receivers with OCAP and DCAS. They support every feature -- the guide, VOD, PPV, SDV -- of current boxes, but they use a CableCard to authorize and decrypt channels.

Motorola, LG, Scientific Atlanta, Samsung, and others have demonstrated such CableCard products. Comcast has placed large orders for Motorolas new DCH series of CableCard STBs and DVRs, for deployment in the second half of 2007.

With DCAS, OCAP, and associated middleware, these boxes will download the guide software from your cable company. This allows the customer to purchase their own box via retail, and they'll get the same software and services as the box from the cable company. You may or may not avoid the monthly DVR fee, depending on the cable company; remember, the DVR software is still developed and paid for by your cable company.

Beginning in July, most cable companies must purchase new STBs and DVRs using CableCard. These boxes aren't the traditional unidirectional CableCard products we've seen in the past; these CableCard products feature full bidirectional receivers with OCAP and DCAS. They support every feature -- the guide, VOD, PPV, SDV -- of current boxes, but they use a CableCard to authorize and decrypt channels.


But can these handle switched video -- which many cable companies have announced that they are seriously considering to up their HD channel offerings quickly.

[QUOTE=sivartk]But can these handle switched video -- which many cable companies have announced that they are seriously considering to up their HD channel offerings quickly.[/QUOTE

Have heard this mentioned many times in several threads. Can you explain just what "SWITCHED VIDEO" is and what it's effect would be?

THANK YOU.
MISSY QUICK

But can these handle switched video -- which many cable companies have announced that they are seriously considering to up their HD channel offerings quickly.Yes, they do. In fact, I mentioned SDV in the post you quoted. :)

Have heard this mentioned many times in several threads. Can you explain just what "SWITCHED VIDEO" is and what it's effect would be?Switched Digital Video (SDV) is very similar to video on demand (VOD), except the channels are listed in your program guide. SDV channels look like any other channel in the guide, but they are delivered differently. Like VOD, SDV requires bi-directional communication to function, and that's not possible with current CableCard products that use unidirectional receivers. Current QAM receivers -- like those used in some new DVD recorders -- do not support SDV channels.

A limited amount of bandwidth for Switched Digital Video (SDV) is available at each node and is shared between customers in the area, much like cable modem bandwidth is shared within an area. A system might use SDV for 10 HDTV channels, but customers in your neighborhood (node) might be limited to 6 of those 10 channels at any given time. If viewers in such an area attempt to view and/or record from more than six of those channels simultaneously, some will get a message on their screen that says "that channel is not currently available." The actual ratios will obviously depend on how much bandwidth the cable provider allocates to SDV.

For that reason, SDV is only useful for channels with relatively limited viewership. SDV serves no purpose for a channel such as ABC, CBS, FOX, NBC, or HBO, where you'll have viewers watching (or recording with a DVR) around the clock. However, for less-watched SD and HD channels, SDV does have practical use. From articles in the press, we know that Comcast plans to use SDV extensively with upcoming HDTV channels in some markets. Eventually, they might offer 50 new channels with SDV, but only 35 might be available for viewing at any given time on a node in your neighborhood.

SDV alone does very little to solve the bandwidth issues created by legacy analog carriage. If a cable provider wants to deliver 50 HDTV channels at full quality in the space of 35 with SDV, they've still got to make space for those 35. Comcast is already doing this in some markets. As discussed elsewhere on this forum, Comcast Chicago is dropping all analog channels (aside from locals) next week, freeing up almost 60 slots, sufficient for 60+ 1080p channels, 120 1080i channels, or almost 180 720p channels at full quality (not "HDTV Lite"). Throw SDV into the mix and capacity is increased further. Comcast Chicago is among the first systems to make this change, but many more will do so in the next two years.

Yes, they do. In fact, I mentioned SDV in the post you quoted. :)

Opps, my bad. I will be very interested in this as my Dad is wanting a way to record his HD cable channels but doesn't want to pay the extra $12 a month to rent an HD DVR.....this should be interesting.

We're not expecting such a device from a provider...but for the device to be sold at the retail level. Cable companies will be required as of July 2007 to support 3rd party receivers. It's fair to expect some company to begin selling such receivers as it represents a huge market that won't go untapped.Oh, OK. I wasn't aware that the Panasonic was to be sold separately. I was taking it as if it was being made for the cable companies to distribute.

Oh, OK. I wasn't aware that the Panasonic was to be sold separately. I was taking it as if it was being made for the cable companies to distribute.I'm not sure the Panasonic is one of the new CableCard units. If it's not, it wouldn't be sold separately.

Just to reiterate, you may or may not avoid the full monthly fee if you purchase a DVR. I'm sure it will vary depending on the cable company. Remember, the DVR software is still developed and paid for by your cable company. Cable companies spend tens of millions to develop (and license associated technology in) their software.

I seriously don't think it would be very realistic to expect you'll ever see such a device available from a provider.

I don't think I said anything to hint that a provider (eg Comcast) would be selling them with DVD burners :)

What I was saying is: what if Panasonic uses the technology they developed already as part of this agreement, then they put a DVD burner in them, and sell them as stand-alone units - providing their agreement with Comcast allows them to do so. They may not have exactly the same feature-set or functionality, but a lot of people would be satisfied with a dual-(analog/digital) tuner HDD-based DVD-recroder that can record HD on the HDD, and downrez it for SD-DVD burning.

With DCAS, OCAP, and associated middleware, these boxes will download the guide software from your cable company. This allows the customer to purchase their own box via retail, and they'll get the same software and services as the box from the cable company. You may or may not avoid the monthly DVR fee, depending on the cable company; remember, the DVR software is still developed and paid for by your cable company. I think it highly probable that you will be subject to a monthly fee no matter what. You would still have to obtain and rent the cable card from your cable co, right? So whether you buy your own box or rent theirs, you will still have to pay a monthly fee. If that fee is high enough for the cable card it will make the prospect of buying your own box uneconomical. Yes, those of us who want extra function and are willing to pay for it will eat the up-front cost. But the average consumer will not which means the market for such 3rd party devices may be so small the initial players drop out of the market quickly or decide not to enter at all. Meanwhile, you have forced the cable co's to new devices which will probably cost more because they are not integrated. They will be more than happy to pass the extra cost onto the consumer as one of those surcharges companies are now fond of charging to "recover costs associated with federal mandates" which includes both the cost of the mandate and a charge to cover their inconvenience at having to comply with the mandate.

This is sounding a lot like another one of those federal mandates that will fail to achieve the desired result and ultimately screw the consumer. As long as a cable co can encrypt it's product, they have absolute control. As long as there is no regulation of the industry rates as a public utility they can charge whatever the market will bear.

I spoke with a Panasonic engineer yesterday and no HDD models are planned for 2007.
Mike

Well, not in the UK, at least according to this post:
http://avblog.co.uk/2007/03/29/panasonic-announces-four-new-dvd-recorders-with-dvb-t-tuner/

All this stuff is mighty confusing. Am I correct in assuming that these new FCC mandates created, and will create even more, money for the cable companies?
It looks like tons of more monies for the cable companies, and the little guy like myself is stuck pee'ing into the wind.

In other words..... high definition / digital will arrive for everone. BUT... cable companies will have their hands out for money, correct ?

This all sounded beautiful a couple years ago... clear picture... high definition... and we all fell for it not knowing that the FCC created a huge money maker for cable companies, is this correct ?

Probably stupid questions, but I'm trying to learn, at least....

No one is forcing you to watch TV - you want it, you pay for it - it gets too expensive, you get rid of it. Simple.

Of course the cable cos will use any excuse to try to make more money - it's up to the consumer to decide to go along with that.

Well, not in the UK, at least according to this post:
http://avblog.co.uk/2007/03/29/panasonic-announces-four-new-dvd-recorders-with-dvb-t-tuner/

Nor in Japan, where they continue to offer cutting-edge DVD recorders.

The problem is not Panasonic (nor Sony, nor Pioneer, nor Toshiba), it is the low price point at which most Americans want to purchase these recorders, and probably the prevalence of cable co.-offered DVRs. They choose not to compete in this market.

No one is forcing you to watch TV - you want it, you pay for it - it gets too expensive, you get rid of it. Simple.

Of course the cable cos will use any excuse to try to make more money - it's up to the consumer to decide to go along with that.I would agree with that. If I'm not mistaken, cable co's are obliged to provide a low-cost basic service which are essentially the local channels one could expect to receive OTA. In my area comcast charges $15/mo for this basic package. I suspect the clear QAM signals are broadcast along with the analogs. If you want more channels, you pay whatever they want to charge. If they charge more than you are willing to pay, you can always go back to basic.

No one is forcing you to watch TV - you want it, you pay for it - it gets too expensive, you get rid of it. Simple.



Exactly, since the mandate "forced" an ATSC tuner into my new HDTV, I dumped cable and spent $10 on an antenna and about $20 on wall plates and cabling to wire it in the attic. My "analog" (I.e. no HD) cable was costing $50 a month and I wasn't watching more than the locals anyway. So, as for me, the mandate lost a cable customer.