I was redirected from another post. I may be wrong..... I understand ATSC is OTA signal, NTSC is cable TV signal and QAM is digital cable signal. Again I could be quite wrong, but when looking to buy one, my understanding makes no sense in the search engine! I am looking for a DVD recorder, no particular brand that is capable of cable signal tuning digital and possibly HD. I want to use it mostly as a tuner, but also to record from old VHS tapes. If it tunes in HD that is a plus.

To recap from my other post, I seen a neighbor with a new Philips TV that had whatever tuner (since I don';t know) in it to view HD and digital stations like Discovery Times(which is only available in digital), and NBCHD. Channels the cable company"don't lock out" but offer in their digital package. We both have digital cable and I want to put the DVD recorder in a room that has only a 2 year old HDTV in it. The HDTV is not "digital ready" so I only get analog CATV. I do not care for any OTA channels, so twhatever tuner for that is not important to me. I already have digital HD service to my living room set. Instead of getting another cable box for the bedroom, I have been wanting a DVD recorder. Basically what should I look for if I want the ability to see digital cable and the possible HD through cable? Is it NTSC or QAM? If you are allowed to post suggestions as to any type thatwould be great too.

See the first post in the Summary of ATSC Recorders (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=791417) thread. It lists which units are currently known to also have QAM tuners. Right now it looks like only the Panasonics have QAM, and only one of those is "on the street."

I do not care for any OTA channels,

Then you're probably out of luck, because most cable companies encrypt all their digital channels except the local OTA HD stations. You might get lucky and pick up something like Discovery HD or whatever your neighbor is watching via Video on Demand (which I understand can get interesting sometimes! :D ) Check the thread for your area in the Local HDTV Info and Reception (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=45) forum to find out what's going on where you are.

ATSC is used for digital OTA.
NTSC is used for analog OTA and Cable.
QAM is used for digital cable.

At this point there's no DVDr that outputs HD. There are some that have a QAM tuner (philips, Magnavox, Panny) and a few more that will probably be available in the next month. For HD output you'll have to wait some more.

if you don't care about recording you may want to buy an HD ATSC / QAM tuner box. Much like a cable box except it can't decrypt encrypted signals.

You will get ATSC no matter what (federal mandate), but QAM is optional so read the specifications carefully. Something like this http://www.samsung.com/Products/DigitalSetTopBox/HDTVTuners/SIR_T451XAA.asp

At this point there's no DVDr that outputs HD.It's a bit of a nit, but there are plenty of upconverting players with HDMI output which could be said to "output" HD. The important factor is that the recordings they make are not HD recordings.

It's a bit of a nit, but there are plenty of upconverting players with HDMI output which could be said to "output" HD. The important factor is that the recordings they make are not HD recordings.

Just a bit...I think that when someone says "HD" around here they mean an unaltered native HD (720p/1080i/p) source being the output. I don't consider upconversion HD even though it is converted to the same resolution...it's all about the source, baby! ;)

Thank you ^

One of the problems you may find is that many manufacturers do not list QAM per se. You might have to do a bit of digging. Panny for example states their new recorders can tune in digital cable channels and this is presumed to mean QAM.

As others have mentioned however, the recorders are not going to pass thru the tuned in HD signal. Of course as I'm writing this, why not? If some recorders can output an upconverted signal via HDMI, why not output the tuned in native HD signal? I realize you cannot record in HD. However if you can tune in HD and output HD, then why bother to downconvert then upconvert to output? Is there a reason why the recorder manufacturers do not want their machines to be used as HD tuners?

Maybe time to start another thread.

As others have mentioned however, the recorders are not going to pass thru the tuned in HD signal. Of course as I'm writing this, why not? If some recorders can output an upconverted signal via HDMI, why not output the tuned in native HD signal? I realize you cannot record in HD. However if you can tune in HD and output HD, then why bother to downconvert then upconvert to output? Is there a reason why the recorder manufacturers do not want their machines to be used as HD tuners?There is no great conspiracy going on. As has been discussed many times during the past month these 1st-gen ATSC tuner models appear to be little more than last years model with an ATSC tuner dropped in and some new cosmetics for the case. They shouldn't be expected to do much more than last years other than have the ability to tune in digital channels -- and some rather badly so far.

Personally, I'm reading all posts of the new model beta testers here and watching the trends. No question I'm waiting for gen-2 or 3 before I shell out any $$.

I wonder about the Sammy unit - it seems awfully high priced for what it is. Even the Panny costs less - I wonder if it, unlike the others, is a new design that actually passes thru HD.

I wonder about the Sammy unit - it seems awfully high priced for what it is. Even the Panny costs less - I wonder if it, unlike the others, is a new design that actually passes thru HD.No, not less than the comparable Panasonic. The EZ-17 (MSRP $200) does not have HDMI output or upconversion whereas the Samsung spec says it does. The comparable Panasonic would be the EZ-27 (EZ-27 = EZ-17 +HDMI + upconversion + SD card slot = ES-25 + ATSC tuner).

Here's a guess on pricing:
From Panasonic website
The EZ-17 MSRP is ES-15+$30.
The EZ-37 MSRP is ES-35+$30

The price for the EZ27 & 47 are not listed yet, so I'll speculate the EZ-27 will go for MSRP $230 and the EZ-47 will go for MSRP $330 based on the prices of the ES-25 & 45. So that puts the cost of the EZ-27 above the cost of the Samsung.

Don't expect the Samsung recorder to pass through native HD. Why would they cripple sales of their HD-TV tuner products.

I appreciate the input. I am going to go with the Toshiba dr550. It seems like it has what I need. When I said I don't care for OTA I just meant I have an antenna and feed already connected to my HR20 and when I buy a DVD recorder with tuner, I really wanted it to avoid renting another cable box. Whther I get 1 or 100 stations, it doesn't matter. But I appreciate the input. Have a great weekend and holiday if you celebrate!

ecclesiii,

Did you buy 550 ? What is your experience ?

DR550 (Toshiba) has all the features I am looking for. I am about to make a plunge there.

On exploring more, looks like DR550 doesnot have what I want. It can record HD only by down coverting to SD. Looks like I need DVD Recorder which also includes hard disk for HD.

Looks like I need DVD Recorder which also includes hard disk for HD.

One doesn't exist in the US...you can make your own with 2 devices (I.e. TiVo / Sony HD DVR and any DVD Recorder), but you won't find one now that can do both.

As others have mentioned however, the recorders are not going to pass thru the tuned in HD signal. Of course as I'm writing this, why not? If some recorders can output an upconverted signal via HDMI, why not output the tuned in native HD signal? I realize you cannot record in HD. However if you can tune in HD and output HD, then why bother to downconvert then upconvert to output? Is there a reason why the recorder manufacturers do not want their machines to be used as HD tuners?

Maybe time to start another thread.
It's just a silicon issue. There's no SoC solution that can provide HD output today, so any DVD recorder that includes HD output would have to do it with more chips in the design. But a multi-chip recorder would be more expensive and the manufacturers are already very sensitive to raising the price of North American models. The ATSC models are already $30 to $40 more, and that's as far as they're willing to gamble. HD output could easily be another $60 to $70, making the premium from last year's models $100. Of course, many here would be willing to pay the premium, but it's the mass market that counts. $199 for a single loader ATSC DVDR box is way more attractive than $259 or $269.

There is no great conspiracy going on. As has been discussed many times during the past month these 1st-gen ATSC tuner models appear to be little more than last years model with an ATSC tuner dropped in and some new cosmetics for the case. They shouldn't be expected to do much more than last years other than have the ability to tune in digital channels -- and some rather badly so far.

Personally, I'm reading all posts of the new model beta testers here and watching the trends. No question I'm waiting for gen-2 or 3 before I shell out any $$.
Sorry, but you don't have a clue about what it takes to build an ATSC DVD recorder. You (and others) think it's trivial to "drop in" an ATSC tuner to existing designs. You couldn't be more off base. Let's list some features that didn't exist in last year's models:

1) ATSC/QAM demodulator chip and control of that chip.
2) Transport Stream input. Has to work up to 38 Mbps for QAM channels.
3) Transport Stream demuxer.
4) HD MPEG-2 decoder.
5) HD to SD rescaler.
6) PSIP middleware.
7) Digital channel scanning.
8) User interface changes for digital channels.

Those are just off the top of my head. There are many many more details to be addressed in an actual product. In fact, DVD recorders are so complex that a significant design cycle exists from concept to mass production. For the Panasonic EZ-17,27,37,47 models, it was about 1 year (work started right after mass production of the ES-20 and ES-40V). But that doesn't include the time getting the silicon ready to even be in a product. That's another 2+ years from tape out to full validation.

Finally, there's the software to provide the base functionality of the silicon. I remember capturing ATSC test streams for HD decoder testing in September of 2005 (before we even had a customer lined up for the silicon).

In summary, you're getting a fantastically more advanced product in this year's ATSC DVD recorders. Don't let your disappointment of not having HD output cloud the technological accomplishment provided in these products.

Ron

Ron,

Thanks for enlightening the non-EE's on what it takes to put ATSC into a DVD recorder. Regardless of the engineering challenge and short design cycle the CE companies had to endure to meet the US digital TV legislation, the fact remains that even with all this good engineering work, it's apparent we are in a position with DVD recorders similar to a few years ago when the CE manufacturers were making incremental improvements to DVD recorder features and the user interface. I agree with Kelson, that its probably wise to wait until the CE manufacturers figure out how to best marry digital tuners and DVD recorders with respect to features, user interface, and cost. It will probably take a generation or two for them to figure this out. In the meantime, I will probably have moved on to a custom HTPC with HDD recording of mpeg4 compressed HD signals. With the HD vs. Blu-Ray disc debacle and this latest hiccup regarding DVD recorders, I fear that home video recording to optical disc may not survive for much longer vs. use of other portable media (e.g., flash discs) or HDD recording.

ATSC is used for digital OTA.
NTSC is used for analog OTA and Cable.
QAM is used for digital cable.

Is an ATSC/QAM tuner the same as an HD Tuner? I see the upcoming Sony RDRGXD455 advertises itself as a "ATSC/NTSC/QAM tuner" and "HD Tuner" but the Toshiba DR-550 only says "ATSC/NTSC/QAM tuner." Is there a difference or do they both tune HD?

TIA