I plan to slowly make my way into obtaining full PCM audio. However, I'm concerned that my speakers may not be up to the task.

I have Athena Point 5 series, which are bookshelf speakers. They are in a 17x12 room. Sometimes DD5.1 sounds awesome, depending on the source. Other times, it's muffled to the point where I have to crank up the receiver.

Do you think the Point 5s are good enough to fully enjoy the advanced sound codecs?

I'd say it's a toss up between the 16/48 PCM and the 24/48-96 DD/DTS that most discs have. The issue of the mixing and mastering of the audio track is a much bigger thing.

IMO a good receiver makes more of a difference than the speakers. You will notice an appreciable difference from LPCM no matter what speakers you use, so long as they don't distort from the increased output.

Honestly, you really need it all new. These high res lossless formats are incredibly dynamic and offer us enthusiasts the chance to have a major league upgrade in sound given the right system. Dynamic speakers, well built drivers and speaker design are important factors. You need an amplifier with a lot of power and headroom for those dynamic peaks. Some room treatments would be ideal and definitely a powerhouse subwoofer. All in a dedicated room (ideally).

Dynamic range is what brings a system to life and imparts realism to the movie sound. The new lossless tracks will give us full dynamic range unlike the lossy, compressed DD and DTS tracks we've been using for over 10 years now. So, there is more potential to get more dynamics & realism.

Lets say, in my room for example, with all equipment on (but no DVD playing)the SPL meter shows my noise floor to be 30-35db. With a movie on and at a point of a loud peak, I climb to 120 db. That makes an effective, max dynamic range of ~85 db. That's pretty good and realistic sounding.

This is where the law of diminishing returns kicks in. Perhaps only 1% of HT systems can hit a clean 100 db from their LCRs (or 115 at 20 Hz frm their subs) - meaning zero driver compression or clipping. These are attributes of a very dynamic system. However, 99% of HT systems can only hit 85 db cleanly with their LCRs. You spend a lot of dough to get that extra 15 db of clean output. Again, a low noise floor maximizes the dynamics!

If for example, your family room has an ambient noise floor of 55 db and your system can reach peaks of 90 db (while dialog remains comfortable to listen to), you have an effective dynamic range of 45 db - not great.. Your highs and lows don't vary too much and relative to a room with 100 db dynamic range, the 45 db room will sound a bit monotone and lifeless. As an example, when you engage the 'Night Viewing' mode on your receiver, this switch electronically lowers your dynamic range by decreasing the range of the highs so you eliminate dynamics - essentially it makes the track have very low peaks. The same (bad) effect is had if you have insufficient dynamic range in your room as a function of speakers, amplifier and/ or room.

So, to get back to your question, if you want the full impact of these high res surround modes, buy piece-meal but buy good stuff. Horn speakers are very dynamic and if shopped around, can be had on the used market for a decent price (e.g. Klipsch horns). They generally have a high sensitivity and won't require as big of an amp to drive (a cost savings) towards reference levels. Standard woofer / tweeter box designs are generally inefficient and require large power amps to get the most out of them. Buy a good sub that can give you bass at 30 HZ up to 100db. Build slowly but deliberately with good equipment and ideally in a dedicated room. The low noise floor associated with a dedicated room is the easiest way to significantly increase your dynamic range without buying a lick of equipment.

Read about acoustics as well (e.g. Everest's book). A very important subject that gets overlooked when wanting to upgrade.

I plan to slowly make my way into obtaining full PCM audio. However, I'm concerned that my speakers may not be up to the task.

I have Athena Point 5 series, which are bookshelf speakers. They are in a 17x12 room. Sometimes DD5.1 sounds awesome, depending on the source. Other times, it's muffled to the point where I have to crank up the receiver.

Do you think the Point 5s are good enough to fully enjoy the advanced sound codecs?

KMR, I have a .5 system (Dayton sub) upstairs in my bedroom with a Toshiba A1 HD DVD player and a Denon 2307ci receiver. I notice a big difference between DD+ and TrueHD on V for Vendetta and Batman Begins. The .5 speakers are solid speakers and you will notice an improvement with PCM soundtracks.

I have crappy speakers and a mid-level receiver and I notice the difference.

And so do my neighbors :)

Honestly, you really need it all new. THese high res lossless formats are incredibly dynamic and offer us enthusiasts the chance to have a major league upgrade in sound given the right system. Dynamic speakers, well built drivers and speaker design are important factors. You need an amplifier with a lot of power and headroom for those dynamic peaks. Some room tretments would be ideal and definitely a powerhuose subwoofer. All in a dedicated room (ideally).

Dynmic range is what brings a system to life and imparts realism to the movide sound. There are a lot of factors. THe new lossless tracks will give us full dynamic range unlike the lossy, compressed DD and DTS tracks we've been using for over 10 years now. So, there is more potential to get more dynamic range (realism).

Lets say, my room for example, with all equipment on (but no DVD playing) I have a noise floor of 30-35db. With a movie on and at a pointo f a loud peak, I climb to 120 db. That makes an effective dynamic range of ~85 db. That's pretty good and realistic sounding.

This is where the law of diminishing returns kicks in. Perhaps 1% of HT systems can hit a clean 100 db from their LCRs (nor 115 at 20 Hx frm thier subs). THese are attributes of a very dynamic system. However, 99% of HT systems can hit 85 db with their LCRs. You spend a lot of dough to get that extra 15 db of clean output. Again, a low noise floor maximizes the dynamics!

If for example, your family room has an ambient noise floor of 55 db and your system can reach peaks of 90 db while dialog remains comfortable to listen to, you have an effective dynamic range of 45 db.. Your highs and lows don't vary too much and relative to a room with 100 db dynamic range, the 45 db room will sound a bit monotone and lifeless. As an example, when you engage the 'Night Viewing' mode, this switch electronically lowers your dynamic range by decreasing the range of the highs so you eliminate dynamics - essentially it makes the track have very low peaks. The same (bad) effect is had if you have insufficient dynamic range in your room as a function of speakers, amplifier and/ or room.

So, to get back to your question, if you want the full impact of these high res surround modes, buy piece-meal but buy good stuff. Horn speakers are very dynamic and if shopped, can be had on the used market for a decent price (e.g. Klipsch horns). They generally have a high sensitivity and won't require as big of an amp to drive (a cost savings). Stadard woofer, tweeter designs are genrally uinefficient and require large power amps to get the most out of them. Buy a good sub that can give you bass at 30 HZ up to 100db. Build slowly but deliberately with good equipment and ideally in a dedicated room. The low noise floor associated with a dedicated room is the easiest way to significantly increase your dynamic range without buying a lick of equipment.

Read abotu acoustics as well. A very important subject that gets overlooked when wanting to upgrade.

What a good post. We need more posts like this on AVS.

What a good post. We need more posts like this on AVS.

Really? Dolby Digital and DTS have 105 db dynamic range (just about full range of a 24 bit D/A) and is more than enough dynamic range for every scenario he presented.
The dynamic range of 16 PCM is theoretically 96db, but usually less than 90db due the filters that have to be used in inexpensive gear.

Thanks for the complement AVC:). This is the way the forum was years ago when I joined...

24 bit PCM Blu Ray recordings are upon us and 24 bit TRUE HD / DTS MArecordings are on the way (if not already incorporated in some HD DVD soundtracks).

The above synopsis is applicable to any soundtrack - but with a lossless track (particularly 24 bit), a system designed for reference playback will take full advantage of the advance soundtracks and sound much more dynamic and real relative to a lossy soundtrack on the same system.

I don't need uber speakers to tell the difference from DVD movies. Granted better gear helps as well and having upgraded to Energy's RC-30's from my older C-3/C-5 setup (which I could still tell the difference) was pretty sweet.

If you are going to have uber speakers though, making sure they have enough power makes a huge difference versus not having enough even for low listening levels.

Dolby Digital 105 db dynamic range
PCM (16 bit) >90db

Which has more dynamic range?

In my home theater I must say the Casino Royale has TOO MUCH dynamic range. Of course the size of my room is much smaller than most peoples at AVS probably.
Thankfully the receiver has adjustments to compensate (which I didn't do until after I watched it :o ) . That said the SQ isn't just about the dynamic range IMO.

In my home theater I must say the Casino Royale has TOO MUCH dynamic range. Of course the size of my room is much smaller than most peoples at AVS probably.
Thankfully the receiver has adjustments to compensate (which I didn't do until after I watched it :o ) . That said the SQ isn't just about the dynamic range IMO.
Pretty much every action movie of any format has more dynamic range than anyone will ever use. My point was that PCM has no advantage in dynamic range.

Pretty much every action movie of any format has more dynamic range than anyone will ever use. My point was that PCM has no advantage in dynamic range.

Well I was just making a general statement, not really trying to get involved with you and thebland's technical points, though a good informative read :)

That said, I have plenty of DVD's that are lacking in dynamic range but I'm sure that is more with the mixing and mastering. I like lossless for the SQ first and foremost as the jump is dramatic. It does seem though that the newer formats are using a higher dynamic range though.

Well I was just making a general statement, not really trying to get involved with you and thebland's technical points, though a good informative read :)

That said, I have plenty of DVD's that are lacking in dynamic range but I'm sure that is more with the mixing and mastering. I like lossless for the SQ first and foremost as the jump is dramatic. It does seem though that the newer formats are using a higher dynamic range though.

Well, as long as you're sure. However, I'll leave you with this. a CD has >90db dynamic range, yet a CD (PCM audio) of Fallout Boy has less than a third of that.

You can have your lossy tracks....I'll take the 24 bit uncompressed......

You can have your lossy tracks....I'll take the 24 bit uncompressed......

How many of those are there? Most are 16 bit and the 640 DDs are most likely as good or better.

There are a few 24 bit Blu Ray titles but the point here is the poster is looking to upgrade his sytem for such tracks. And by the time he gets there many 24 bit uncompressed or TRUE HD /DTS MA tracks will be available. HD is in its infancy and these reference soundtracks will multiply in number over the next few years....something to shoot for when building a system over time.

Bottom line, building a system towards reference dynamics / minimal driver compression / dialog intelligibility will pay dividends 24 bit soundtracks come to be.

It has taken me 20 years to get to a reference sound system and I can tell you....it is good.

What an inspiring thread...
Time to do more research! :eek: :o

Are uber speakers needed?
I don't know, but they don't hurt.

24 bit PCM Blu Ray recordings are upon us and 24 bit TRUE HD / DTS MArecordings are on the way (if not already incorporated in some HD DVD soundtracks).
FWIW, I believe that the two Universal titles that sport DTHD tracks are both 24/48. I could be wrong, but I think that's what I saw in another thread (someone made a chart of all of the releases.) Other than that, I know of no titles that have 24 bit lossless tracks.

I don't know...cause I've never used non-uber speakers :D

But a really good set of separates (or a top notch reciever) really helps too.

Dolby Digital 105 db dynamic range
PCM (16 bit) >90db

Which has more dynamic range?

I know in a blindfolded test which one my wife would pick every single time.
and which one that is...obviously pcm :p

FWIW, I believe that the two Universal titles that sport DTHD tracks are both 24/48. I could be wrong, but I think that's what I saw in another thread (someone made a chart of all of the releases.) Other than that, I know of no titles that have 24 bit lossless tracks.
Yes, as far as HD DVD goes, End of Days and Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas both sport 24-bit TrueHD tracks, as does the NIN disc.

Some of Studio Canal's DTS-HD MA soundtracks for HD DVD may have a 24-bit bit-depth as well. I'm not sure about them.

IMO a good receiver makes more of a difference than the speakers. You will notice an appreciable difference from LPCM no matter what speakers you use, so long as they don't distort from the increased output.

I do agree that average set ups will easily let you hear the difference between core DD/DTS and PCM.....but using my same custom made uber speakers...a less than 400.00 hdmi receiver sounds fuller, more distinct and detailed via PCM than my last 8k pre/pro amp combo did with the best DD/DTS core tracks.

Thats less than 5% of the cost with the same speakers...and a nice improvement even on 16 bit PCM titles.

Speakers are the weakest link in the change...and if you can't afford an upgrade to everything uber like Jeff....I would go with a cheap hdmi receiver and uber speakers over an uber receiver/pre/pro and so so speakers...given the choice.

For my small home theater, I have a nice blend of semi-uber equipment. I have a $2,000 receiver that I use as a pre/pro, a $1,000 amp, and $3,000 set of speakers with a $700 sub. I wouldn't skimp completely on any one aspect and find the audio processor to be almost as crucial of an element as the speakers. It is especially the DACs that play a very important factor in audio quality.

Technical jargon notwithstanding, I often hear a significant difference between uncompressed/lossless audio and DD included on the same discs.

Nothing uber here, just a nice set of Monitor Audio speakers (7.1) powered by a Pioneer 74 receiver and a Velodyne sub. Pretty average stuff. The difference between a loosless PCM and DD 5.1 is the same as driving a Ferrari and a Corolla. Any setup will sound better with lossless PCM, assuming it's capable to process it.

Sergio

I am not an audiophile and have never pretended to be. Personally, I think that "dynamic range" is a bit overrated. Too many modern movie soundtracks, especially action movies like Casino Royale, are obsessed with hitting the highest highs and lowest lows because that's where the listener will "feel" them, but don't have anything interesting going on in the mid-range where most of the important audio should be located.

Yes, it's superficially impressive when a big explosion shakes your house so much that you're knocked out of your chair and all of your neighbors' windows shatter, but the truly best soundtracks have a so-called "warmth", musicality, and pleasing fidelity that extends through the entire audio spectrum. We just don't get that as much as we used to anymore.

Yes, it's superficially impressive when a big explosion shakes your house so much that you're knocked out of your chair and all of your neighbors' windows shatter, but the truly best soundtracks have a so-called "warmth", musicality, and pleasing fidelity that extends through the entire audio spectrum. We just don't get that as much as we used to anymore.
If what you're saying is many soundtracks are "trying to hard" to impress, then I would have to agree. While they may sound good to some, most of the time you get the dramatic difference in dialogue vs. explosions. I'm not a fan of holding the remote to keep changing the volume. I like dynamic range, but a good level headed reference quality soundtrack gets my vote every time.

To the OP, from many posts I've read regarding the ability to hear an improvement in a lossless format vs. DD/DTS, many have said there is a very noticeable difference. These people were running the entire length of the spectrum in equipment. Some had what many might consider cheap, and some were using just the opposite. I've seen far more folks say there is a big improvement than not.

Having to change the volume to balance hearing the dialog and taming the loud explosions is simply a function of room acoustical problems.

I typically set the gain to -3 and adjust a db or 2 up or down as the movie begins and that is the volume for the whole flick. Dialog and explosions are balanced regardless of the level chosen.

Having to change the volume to balance hearing the dialog and taming the loud explosions is simply a function of room acoustical problems.

I typically set the gain to -3 and adjust a db or 2 up or down as the movie begins and that is the volume for the whole flick. Dialog and explosions are balanced regardless of the level chosen.
Understood. Perhaps I'm simply recalling soundtracks with dialogue problems, or dialogue recorded too low. Not all movies I've watched have that problem, but I know some have a much more noticable difference in decible range from talking to exploding than others. ;) But, yes.....I do have room acoustic problems too. :p

the Bland,

Nice post. The only thing I would add is that people need to listen to speakers with MUSIC that they know well, and find speakers they like. For example, I am not a big fan of horns, as they can sound bright unless put in a room with the right acoustics.

Also, if you have the skills, DIY speakers offer tremendous value. I had the GR AV 3s (that I sold before moving to Hawaii), but still have the AV-1's which are bookshelves that have been compared to the Dynaudio 1.3 MkII ($2399). They can be built for about $550 or bought for a little over $700/pr.

All of the Fox blurays have 24bit lossless. Although there is no way to play them currently except HTPC.
Right. He was talking about HD DVD in the quote I was responding to, so I only mentioned HD DVD titles.

I concur with thebland for the most part but in my experience even some of the hi-def soundtracks can be a bit harsh above 5ish.

Great thread Folks,

I have just upgraded my entire system (except sub-that's next). I purchased a seven channel Amp by chance not by choice do to what I felt was it's superb sound and value. This is my first step into separates.

I always thought of myself as a 5.1 Guy and never a 7.1 Guy(didn't have the right Amp and didn't think I was into rearranging my room to accommodate the set-up). Now that I have an Amp available to me for the two extra channels and I cannot bi-amp my Dynaudio Speakers, will the move to 7.1 make a significant difference with the new lossless formats moving forward?

Should 7.1 be on our radars as much as the rest of the equations that are now beginning to come into play when shopping/planning/budgeting new gear?

Thanks
Rick

Give me a movie that has a great mix and I will be happy. It doesn't matter what audio codec is used if the mix doesn't sit well. I still think that the latest release of the Lion King on DVD sounds fantastic. I don't think that it was a lossless encode either.

Having to change the volume to balance hearing the dialog and taming the loud explosions is simply a function of room acoustical problems.

I typically set the gain to -3 and adjust a db or 2 up or down as the movie begins and that is the volume for the whole flick. Dialog and explosions are balanced regardless of the level chosen.

I cant seem to find "gain" in my Rotel RSP 1068, and dont recal that in the 1098 either. Any idea why? Would it be called something else?

Where can I go to audition Uber Speakers? I was at Tweeter the other day and they don't carry 'em.... ;)

Come on Rachael, you know those Polk Audios rock! ;)

Come on Rachael, you know those Polk Audios rock! ;)

I never used 'em, those stereo stones.... ;)

I may be learning a very painful lesson with the uncompressed LPCM movie soundtracks. I'm playing discs at "reasonable" volume levels but large crash/boom transients are putting my amp(s) into protection mode which seldom happens with "plain jane" DD/DTS or SACD/DVD-A music tracks at "unreasonably loud" volume levels. The suspicion is currently impedance mismatches between amps/speakers at certain frequencies (speakers are alleged to require a lot of power; especially at lower frequencies) or the protection circuits are just tooooo sensitive to movie soundtrack transients. At no point was any discernable distortion/clipping ever detected by the ear. I solved a great deal of the problem by setting speakers "small" but then I lose some of the impact of having "large" speakers selected. I might eventually half-solve this issue using multiple subs, but for now, I'm a bit bummed.

I've pretty much ruled out the player as a cause, I put it into someone else's Halcro/macintosh/B&W Ubersystem with no issues and also replaced the player in my system with no effect.

Why would you think the player is the issue?
Your amp can't drive your speakers at full range at the volume you selected.
Simple as that.
There shouldn't be anything "alleged" about your speakers sensitivity or impedence curve(s).
At the very least, your speakers should have published sensitivity spec.

I never used 'em, those stereo stones....
Rachael, your problem is easy, you're not using the Shiva-Bagivad-Rama multi-channel shakti stones. tsk tsk. No wonder your kharma's gone to sh!t ;)

Rachael, your problem is easy, you're not using the Shiva-Bagivad-Rama multi-channel shakti stones. tsk tsk. No wonder your kharma's gone to sh!t ;)

Do those come with a sub-boulder? ;)

I plan to slowly make my way into obtaining full PCM audio. However, I'm concerned that my speakers may not be up to the task.

CD is 16/44.1 so playing stereo music is a good test to start with.

If budget is tight I'd upgrade the front speakers first when upgrading is needed.

For me, the content of the music or movie soundtrack is far more important than the codec, bitrate and bitdepth.

Darn it! I know I shoulda spent the extra $400 and got the Yammy with the HDMI inputs!!!

:)

Come on Rachael, you know those Polk Audios rock! ;)

Actually Polk Audio's LSi Series is quite something...they run about 4-5K for the set.