Circuit City has the new Panny's listed on their website for:

DMR-EZ17 Black or Silver $199.99
DMR-EZ37 Black or Silver $299.99

I'm surprised to see that their carrying both colors :)

Hey Bill1313:

Not to be nit-picky, but they are the EZ models, not EX. I only figured that out when I tried doing a search for them with the EX letters in the model number, and came up short.

The great news though is that Digital (ATSC) tuner units are coming out and the two models you listed are DVD Only, and DVD/VHS. I am waiting for DVD/HDD...with a Digital tuner, and then I will go from there.

I imagine it's only a matter of time.

Wooops, your correct it's "EZ" & I corrected it above but if I was you & you want a Panny with a HDD I'd grab the "75" before there all gone because I don't think your going to see a "new" Panny with a HDD.

If these do NOT have an ATSC tuner (I thoiugth that is what that 'accutuner' was?), then what is the advantage of the $199 model over the $109 ES15? I was just about to buy a 15 too....


Hey Bill1313:

Not to be nit-picky, but they are the EZ models, not EX. I only figured that out when I tried doing a search for them with the EX letters in the model number, and came up short.

The great news though is that Digital (ATSC) tuner units are coming out and the two models you listed are DVD Only, and DVD/VHS. I am waiting for DVD/HDD...with a Digital tuner, and then I will go from there.

I imagine it's only a matter of time.

If these do NOT have an ATSC tuner (I thoiugth that is what that 'accutuner' was?), then what is the advantage of the $199 model over the $109 ES15? I was just about to buy a 15 too....
All the panny EZ models have digital ATSC and QAM tuners. Suplex is waiting for the inclusion of a HDD which would be a very nice feature.

Circuit City has the new Panny's listed on their website for:

DMR-EZ17 Black or Silver $199.99
DMR-EZ37 Black or Silver $299.99

I'm surprised to see that their carrying both colors :)Just a note.
The EZ models are now listed on the Panasonic website. What should be noted is that these 2 models have digital tuners in them but do not offer HDMI upconversion. The EZ27 & EZ47 are the companion models that offer an SD card slot and HDMI upconversion. They are nowhere to be seen yet on retail shelves or on the net.

As such, the EZ17 & EZ37 are very expensive for what little they do. The CC prices are the Panasonic MSRP so expect the EZ27 & EZ47 models to be higher; I wouldn't be surprised to see a $50 price premium.

If these do NOT have an ATSC tuner (I thoiugth that is what that 'accutuner' was?), then what is the advantage of the $199 model over the $109 ES15? I was just about to buy a 15 too....The EZ17 is the ES15, with the addition of a digital tuner. This goes down the line:

EZ17 = ES15 + ATSC/QAM
EZ27 = ES25 + ATSC/QAM
EZ37 = ES35 + ATSC/QAM
EZ47 = ES45 + ATSC/QAM

It must be me, but why anyone would WASTE their money on these DVD recorders just because they have an ATSC tuner in them is beyond me. That goes for ANY type of DVD Recorder with a digital tuner

They are GROSSLY overpriced. Close to an extra $90 for a TUNER?!

Personally, anyone who would buy these(without an HDD especially!!) are fools.

But it is your money. You earned it. You can do what you want with it.

AndreLaplume,

Just get the current Panasonic. It is just as good and cost about $90-$100 less than getting one with a TUNER. What a joke.

Or keep an eye out for a BARGAIN BASEMENT HDD unit, which are being discounted up the wazoo because they don't have a digital tuner in it.

I saw a Sony HX-900 for $179+tax because of this. Plus saw a Sony HX-715 for $199+tax for the same reason.

Also, keep an eye on the Panny HDD unit sold at Circuit City currently going for $519+tax(80GB HDD/VCR/DVD Recorder).

If this is the trend watch the price plummett, and get a nice unit at a LOWWWWWWWW PRICE.

It looks like these new models will also record to both layers of a dual layer disk without a finalization :) . Twice the recording time, finally :D .

First of all, wait for them to go on sale. The old ES20 also use to retail for $200.

Having a ATSC tuner is a reason to buy, as many people on this forum have expressed interest in tuning in OTA HD programs.

Panny's description indicates these also have a CATV digital tuner & it appears this is their term for a QAM tuner. But I'm still waiting to get that verified.

Panny records full D1 at the SP and LP speeds. A lot of others do not.

Panny with RAM disc uses what they call "chase play" - watching while recording. Just like a HDD recorder. Except of course for the capacity.

Panny is not bringing out any HDD models for 2007.

So if you like the Panny features and PQ, the EZ17 appears it will be a good deal. I see comments where several people are already returning some of cheap HDD recorders.

ATSC/QAM is more important than HDD, at least for me. If I can't tune in the program then I won't be able to record it.

The reason I am holding out for a unit with a Digital Tuner...and a HDD, is because I currently have the Pioneer 640 and am still able to use it to record shows via the Line 1 Input feeding off of my cable box. Having a unit that can record multiple shows on different channels (because the way I currently record I can only do one channel at a time) via it's own Tuner would be a benefit.

If I bought the Panasonic EZ17 I would have to get two of them, one to record on DVD-Ram, then do my editing, then send it to the second unit on DVD-R (for programs I intend to library), if it had a HDD I could do it all within one unit and get better results at that.

The real question (I see we may have to wait until 2008) is will there be a Panasonic DMR-EZ57 (a DMR-ES55 with a Digital Tuner)?

Even if Panasonic doesn't make on...for now...there has to be someone who will. Here is an interesting thought though, will the tuners capacity go up to 999 for all the new channels depending on your cable provider? I doubt that 181 channel tuners will suffice anymore.

Here is an interesting thought though, will the tuners capacity go up to 999 for all the new channels depending on your cable provider? I doubt that 181 channel tuners will suffice anymore.Suplex, I'm not trying to pick on you or anything so don't feel that way, but there's something I don't understand about the whole cable situation. Let's just consider this a minute.

What good will the QAM tuner do you if everything you want to record is encrypted? The only thing broadcast in clear QAM will be in the lower 50. In order to get the dual-tuner functionality you want and record everything you pay for, you will need to rent an extra STB just for your DVDR in which case any tuner is meaningless. Now faced with the prospect of renting 2 STBs to get dual-tuner functionality, how much would it cost to just rent one of their dual tuner DVRs instead and be done with it.

It seems to me this would apply to all you cable users. Are you never going to want to watch something while the DVDR is recording?

I saw a Sony HX-900 for $179+tax because of this. Plus saw a Sony HX-715 for $199+tax for the same reason.

If this is the trend watch the price plummett, and get a nice unit at a LOWWWWWWWW PRICE.

A Sony HX-900 for $179... Why don't I ever run across anything like that? I would buy that baby in a flash! Bought mine for $300 and have been looking for a second one ever since, but no luck. Not perfect, but I love mine dearly. ;)

My local WMart has the EZ37 for considerably less.

Also, keep an eye on the Panny HDD unit sold at Circuit City currently going for $519+tax(80GB HDD/VCR/DVD Recorder).Actually, their website lists it for $100.00 less ($419.99). If you go in the store and ask for that price, they will usually give it to you.

I just picked up one myself last night (for the lesser price). I wanted it to record from my SD E* tuner. All I have to do is highlight the shows I want recorded on the satellite tuner, and the E75H automatically records them without even having to program anything on it's end. It even picks up the titles, too! The only thing is that the TVGOS won't get any program info for the channels, but you just use the E* tuner for that. For D* and digital or analog cable, the TVGOS will pick up the program info.

It works great! I'm just sorry I didn't pick up the E55H with the larger hard drive when it was still available, but I can see myself using this for a long time to come (hopefully it'll last that long).

Suplex, I'm not trying to pick on you or anything so don't feel that way, but there's something I don't understand about the whole cable situation. Let's just consider this a minute.

What good will the QAM tuner do you if everything you want to record is encrypted? The only thing broadcast in clear QAM will be in the lower 50. In order to get the dual-tuner functionality you want and record everything you pay for, you will need to rent an extra STB just for your DVDR in which case any tuner is meaningless. Now faced with the prospect of renting 2 STBs to get dual-tuner functionality, how much would it cost to just rent one of their dual tuner DVRs instead and be done with it.

It seems to me this would apply to all you cable users. Are you never going to want to watch something while the DVDR is recording?

So basically if there was a DVD/HDD recorder with a Digital Tuner and a 999 channel range, I couldn't use it anyhow because all movie channels wouldn't record via the recorders Tuner anyway?

Is that what you were trying to explain to me, because I actually never thought of that. I figured that it would be worth it if the Digital Tuner allowed me to record anything but premium PPV or Movie Channels, like Discovery, A&E, TLC, Sci-Fi, or anything that my cable box gets in the 200's, 300's, etc... for what channel it is on.

To the best of your knowledge Kelson, do they plan on encrypting ALL channels someday?

Kelson -

Sort of off topic, but does pertain to digital tuner DVD recorders.

Would you know if there is a source or reference somewhere that cross-references Comcast channel numbers to "real" channels or frequencies?

My TV does have a QAM tuner & seems to tune in everything I throw at it, un-encrypted that is. And I have found stuff when scanning, such as METV. The Comcast channel number is in the 200+ range and I found it around 111 on my TV (I have to look up the actual number that I wrote down). But again, this was found accidently. It would be nice to know what frequencies Comcast actual uses when they assign channel numbers above 100.

Mike

Mike99
Sorry I have no idea about your question.

Suplex
A QAM tuner can only tune in what the cable co broadcasts unencrypted (clear). In order for any device to be able to tune in encrypted channels without the use of a STB, that device would have to have a cable-card slot. You would still have to rent a cable-card to plug into that slot from the cable co, so they get you either way. No DVDRs introduced or announced have a cable card slot. So any DVDR you buy, regardless of tuner type, will need the intermediacy of an STB in order to tune in and record any encrypted channel. If you only have 1 STB for your TV then you only effectively have 1 tuner -- you can't watch and record 2 different channels at the same time. To have dual tuner functionality for all encrypted channels you need to rent 2 STB's.

Comcast in my area encrypts everything except the local channels that one could get via antenna OTA. I have seen many citations in posts and articles that the cable co's are obligated to broadcast these locals in clear QAM -- however, I have never seen an actual official document to that effect. I don't know if it's an FCC requirement or if it's something that is the result of regional contract negotiations the cable co's have to enter in with local governments. If it is regional that would explain why some people like Mike99 can tune in more than the locals in clear QAM.

Mike99
Sorry I have no idea about your question.

Suplex
A QAM tuner can only tune in what the cable co broadcasts unencrypted (clear). In order for any device to be able to tune in encrypted channels without the use of a STB, that device would have to have a cable-card slot. You would still have to rent a cable-card to plug into that slot from the cable co, so they get you either way. No DVDRs introduced or announced have a cable card slot. So any DVDR you buy, regardless of tuner type, will need the intermediacy of an STB in order to tune in and record any encrypted channel. If you only have 1 STB for your TV then you only effectively have 1 tuner -- you can't watch and record 2 different channels at the same time. To have dual tuner functionality for all encrypted channels you need to rent 2 STB's.

Comcast in my area encrypts everything except the local channels that one could get via antenna OTA. I have seen many citations in posts and articles that the cable co's are obligated to broadcast these locals in clear QAM -- however, I have never seen an actual official document to that effect. I don't know if it's an FCC requirement or if it's something that is the result of regional contract negotiations the cable co's have to enter in with local governments. If it is regional that would explain why some people like Mike99 can tune in more than the locals in clear QAM.

I am not sure on the legalese behind it, but i think there are agreements (perhaps as part of their contract with the city/state/federal?) to carry the CSPANs, local access and some other educational and such stuff that they get no (or little) revenue from. I'm sure if it was the cable companies choice they would plug them out and replace them with premium/paying-tiers or Shopping TV channels (surely we need 2+ jewelery shopping channels, because one is not enough! What if I want to buy a watch while they are advertising earrings? I mean, where else am I going to find a watch? :)

No DVDRs introduced or announced have a cable card slot.

Hey Kelson:

I am under the impression you may be referring to "Non-Rented Through The Cable Company" DVR's, like the Pioneer 640, Panasonic EH55 (or any one of their many models), Toshiba, etc...

I now have Verizon Fios and the cable box they issue us is the Motorola QIP 2500, and the DVR is the Motorola QIP 64XX

If you go to this website:

http://www22.verizon.com/content/fiostv/customer+support/customer+support.htm

You can see pictures of both the regular STB and the DVR I mentioned above, then just click the word "GO" to the right of either description and you can download a PDF file of either manual you would like to take a look at.

If you look at the manual for the DVR, where it shows you what the back of the unit looks like, it has a Smart Card slot, is also describes it as "Currently Disabled", however it is there (I am assuming for future use).

Verizon Fios also has a set up where they call it "Multi-Room DVR" ad what that does is you record shows on your DVR and you can view them in any other room in the house using the Non-DVR Set Top Box.

It must be me, but why anyone would WASTE their money on these DVD recorders just because they have an ATSC tuner in them is beyond me. That goes for ANY type of DVD Recorder with a digital tuner

They are GROSSLY overpriced. Close to an extra $90 for a TUNER?!

Personally, anyone who would buy these(without an HDD especially!!) are fools.

But it is your money. You earned it. You can do what you want with it.

AndreLaplume,

Just get the current Panasonic. It is just as good and cost about $90-$100 less than getting one with a TUNER. What a joke.

Or keep an eye out for a BARGAIN BASEMENT HDD unit, which are being discounted up the wazoo because they don't have a digital tuner in it.

I saw a Sony HX-900 for $179+tax because of this. Plus saw a Sony HX-715 for $199+tax for the same reason.

Also, keep an eye on the Panny HDD unit sold at Circuit City currently going for $519+tax(80GB HDD/VCR/DVD Recorder).

If this is the trend watch the price plummett, and get a nice unit at a LOWWWWWWWW PRICE.

You're off base on several counts:

1. Comparing the close-out price of an old model with the price of a brand new model, you'll always find a price difference even when the feature set is the same. The close-out versus new pricing accounts for some of that $90 difference.

2. If you're receiving TV through cable or satellite, you're right that it might not make sense to buy a DVD recorder with a digital tuner that won't get used. But some of us do receive television via an antenna, and for those of us who do, the tuner is a useful feature.

3. Buying a DVD recorder with ATSC digital tuner and connecting it to an analog standard definition TV will allow that TV to be used for off-air reception after 2009 by simply tuning through the DVD recorder. In essence, the DVD recorder become's the TV's digital tuner STB.

4. Even at standard definition, I would expect a recording made from a digital channel to look cleaner than one made from an analog channel. Aside from no snow or ghosts, the digital signal is capable of about 50% more resolution than is analog (analog TV does 330 vertical lines of resolution, digital TV is capable of 520 lines, and DVD is capable of 540 lines). That's a not-insignificant difference.

5. The digital tuner will pick up the wide-screen versions of shows that are shown as 4:3 crops on the analog channels (ie, "Lost", "24", and many others).

So, yeah, I can see several good reasons why the newer recorders might be worth a premium to some buyers.

Like I said Thomas, it is your money, go ahead.

You are right on ONE point above.

If you ONLY receive your TV through either an indoor or outdoor antenna, then YES, it would be worth it.

And that goes for anyone else. You WILL have buyers remorse if you get your TV through either satellite or cable.

Save the money. Buy one of the CLOSEOUT/CLEARANCE models either currently available or wait.

Like I said, I have seen, and will probably pick up a closeout HDD model, for the same price(or less) than someone will pay for a "NEW" digital DVD Recorder.

But do as you will.

Like I said Thomas, it is your money, go ahead.

You are right on ONE point above.

If you ONLY receive your TV through either an indoor or outdoor antenna, then YES, it would be worth it.

And that goes for anyone else. You WILL have buyers remorse if you get your TV through either satellite or cable.

Save the money. Buy one of the CLOSEOUT/CLEARANCE models either currently available or wait.

Like I said, I have seen, and will probably pick up a closeout HDD model, for the same price(or less) than someone will pay for a "NEW" digital DVD Recorder.

But do as you will.

I'd never buy one without a digital tuner. The ONLY reason to get one without is if you will ALWAYS use a cable or satellite box. Even if you have cable, you CAN record unencrypted QAM programs, and it'll be digital.

If you are looking to record everything from your cable or satellite box for delayed viewing, it's pretty clear the subscription DVRs are the way to go. But alot of us here are going "free" OTA or "nearly free" (basic cable) and don't want to line the pockets of providers with subscription fees. So this type of DVR doesn't make sense for us.

But RichBenn,

Your living under the ASSUMPTION that the channels you want WILL BE in the CLEAR on cable.

I have personal testimony that this is not true.

At one time, when Adelphia was in charge in my area, they sent, at first, a TON of their digital channels in the CLEAR QAM. Alomost all of their digital lineup was in the clear for a long time.

Then, all of a sudden one day, only the LOCALS were in the clear, and everything else was encrypted.

It was that way until(I have only basic analog by the way) November 2006 when Time Warner Cable took over, and they ENCRYPTED EVERYTHING, including the locals.

And they will not budge from their stance.

You will find others that have suffered this fate for a while longer than I have.

They will soon find out that there cable company will encrypt everything and FORCE people to get a STB from them. They will use the analog cutoff as an EXCUSE because most of the customer base out there is either uninformed or ill informed.

Unless they are making these DVD recorders with a CABLECARD built into them, you will have an ATSC tuner for sure.

NO GUARANTEES on the QAM side though.

Enjoy them.

But RichBenn,

It was that way until(I have only basic analog by the way) November 2006 when Time Warner Cable took over, and they ENCRYPTED EVERYTHING, including the locals.



Hope Time Warner doesn't buy too many more, but no matter for me, as OTA is what I plan on converting to. Our cable is so bad, it's not even funny! Even the digitals and HD are way substandard.

There are other threads about cable cards not being supported by most, as well.

I personally think it's time for the government to regulate cable a little more. But that's a different thread....

Hope Time Warner doesn't buy too many more, but no matter for me, as OTA is what I plan on converting to. Our cable is so bad, it's not even funny! Even the digitals and HD are way substandard.

There are other threads about cable cards not being supported by most, as well.

I personally think it's time for the government to regulate cable a little more. But that's a different thread....

I hear on the; "Our cable is so bad, it's not even funny!" remark.

TWC has so screwed up the cable out here, they have FORCED me to look at different options. They are also planning on converting the area I live in as a different DMA(Cleveland instead of Pittsburgh), and this is going to piss off ALOT OF PEOPLE. It has already. Myslef included because of getting rid of all of the local Burgh stations which is a bitch for Pirate and Steeler(these are the two biggies) fans.

Forced me to look at DISH or DirecTV, and get my locals through an antenna.

I have an LG tuner(to go with an HDTV monitor), and will soon sell of my other little analog sets, for a cheap SDTV models. They are getting cheaper by the day, but they will soon level off.

Probably go with DishNOW(pre-paid service. Really nice, and they will soon have a 2-room STB for those who want it. Really nice not to have any contracts or crap like that. I hate that stuff) and get the locals from the antenna.

But who knows. Enough people complain, maybe TWC will listen.

Doubt it though.

Hey steelersrule, where did you see the Sonys so cheap? I also pm'd you.

So for someone that bought a new Panny, can you tell us any news about the OTA (ATSC) digital tuner sensititivy, chase playback using DVD-RAM, channel to channel tuning speed, picture quality (into what TV using what output and what resolution), 16X9 performance, etc.?

My local WMart has the EZ37 for considerably less.

hmmm...will Wal-Mart price match across the country? Mine only has it for $3 less than Circuit City...I wouldn't call that considerable :p

hmmm...will Wal-Mart price match across the country? Mine only has it for $3 less than Circuit City...I wouldn't call that considerable :p

Last time I tried price matching at Walmart, was for something I wanted to get the lower price available on their web site. They said they won't do it.

hmmm...will Wal-Mart price match across the country? Mine only has it for $3 less than Circuit City...I wouldn't call that considerable :p

I noticed the same thing (only $3 difference). And the only one left on the shelf was the display model too! It was the DMR-EZ37K. Much nicer than the Magnavox, but it was missing the HDMI port, so I can't imagine that anyone here would actualy want one. I'm guessing on the DMR-EZ47K that blank spot on the back will actualy have the HDMI port, unless the one I saw was a special model for WalMart.

Other observations (some baded upon reading the manual):
Made in China
Build quality was much better than the Magnavox, which was so bad I wouldn't even consider it.
Does not play VCD's, SVCD's, PAL discs, and only plays region 1. Doesn't do Divx either. Not that I care all that much about these things since my old Raite still works, but everything else being equal, I'd pick one that does more.
VCR does play S-VHs tapes, but doesn't reocrd S-VHS.

This whole thing is rediculous. I am sure there are many folks (simpletons in the recording world I guess) like me. We have one cable box. Our **other** 4 tvs just have a coax line coming out of the wall, into a VCR into the TV. We record (in weekly mode) numerous shows while being able to watch whatever we want. Yes the coax offers most channels the box does, but not all and not the premiums. Again, my VCR is connected to this coax and records 8 different programs a week. If I understand correctly, I can buy the ES15 and hook it up like my VCR and life will stay the same for me until 2009---correct!

Now we jump to 2009 with the ES15. I understand I will need some sort of box between that coax line and my ES15. I also understand that at that point I'll have to turn on that box and manually tune the sucker to the channel to be recorded later that day by my ES15. Assuming I am correct here I find this unacceptable. This is where my question about the is ATSC tuner coming into play.

If I have the ATSC tuner in the DVD recorder (EZ17?), in 2009, can I run the coax into the EZ17 and program it to record my 8 programs a week????? This is what I want to be able to do.

Maybe a DVR is a better way to go...maybe we are being forced into that way anyway....for now though I need a dvd recorder to xfer 30 VHS tapes and if I'm buying one I might as well try to get one that will behave like my VCR past 2009.

This whole thing is rediculous. I am sure there are many folks (simpletons in the recording world I guess) like me. We have one cable box. Our **other** 4 tvs just have a coax line coming out of the wall, into a VCR into the TV. We record (in weekly mode) numerous shows while being able to watch whatever we want. Yes the coax offers most channels the box does, but not all and not the premiums. Again, my VCR is connected to this coax and records 8 different programs a week. If I understand correctly, I can buy the ES15 and hook it up like my VCR and life will stay the same for me until 2009---correct!

Now we jump to 2009 with the ES15. I understand I will need some sort of box between that coax line and my ES15. I also understand that at that point I'll have to turn on that box and manually tune the sucker to the channel to be recorded later that day by my ES15. Assuming I am correct here I find this unacceptable. This is where my question about the is ATSC tuner coming into play.

If I have the ATSC tuner in the DVD recorder (EZ17?), in 2009, can I run the coax into the EZ17 and program it to record my 8 programs a week????? This is what I want to be able to do.

Maybe a DVR is a better way to go...maybe we are being forced into that way anyway....for now though I need a dvd recorder to xfer 30 VHS tapes and if I'm buying one I might as well try to get one that will behave like my VCR past 2009.

Do you REALLY record 8 shows on a VCR without removing the tape? On EP mode? My VCR looks pretty bad in EP mode; actually pretty bad in LP mode. So whatever I get, I want to get more than 2 hours at something approaching SP quality, as that's all I get now. The Panasonics, as I understand it, do a credible LP mode, so I guess that's about 4 hours. Still, that wouldn't get 8 shows if any of those are longer than 1/2 hour.

I'm a little bummed that none of these units so far have a hard drive. For me, the VCR was not for "permanent stuff", but for delayed viewing. I don't want to go the TIVO route; it just seems wrong to me to pay someone on a monthly basis for delayed viewing.

Yes, I record at LP and the pic quality is fine. I usually watch a few shows and rewind the tape before it records subsequent ones...works very well for me. Also, programs are recorded 'in case' I am not home. If I am home I usually just rewind the tape after the show.

Andre, I don't think anyone can tell you now what will happen in 2009. The analog cut off applies to analog over the air broadcasts, and not cable. If the cable companies decide on their good will to continue providing analog signals, then you will by all means be able to continue using the S15 with the coax out of the wall just as before.

If they decide they have no interest in this service any more, then it's anyone's guess. The new recorders with ATSC will only help you with antenna over the air. You may still plug in your coax cable in the Z17 or whatever else you buy, and that's where the QAM tuner will come to play. Unfortunately no one can say how much help that will be. Right no in my area the analog cable provides about 80 channels. QAM tuners in current recorders only work with unscrambled channels from the digital tier of the cable company. Right now, with a QAM tuner I am only getting about 6 channels over QAM, compared to the 80 or so analog.

So unless your cable provider is in the business of making people happy, rather than robbing them off their money, I doubt that you'll be able to continue to use the coax cable out of the wall should the analog cable end in 2009. In that case you're screwed with both ES15 or EZ17.

I don't think you'll be screwed with the 17 because I thought by law that they could'nt scramble "Any" local channels (The networks ABC, CBS, NBC & Etc) so you should always be able to record them but you might not be able to record A&E, ESPN or any "Cable" channels but who knows maybe they'll come in with different packages that will let you record some of them like the "Analog" tiers that they have now?

I don't think you'll be screwed with the 17 because I thought by law that they could'nt scramble "Any" local channels (The networks ABC, CBS, NBC & Etc) so you should always be able to record them but you might not be able to record A&E, ESPN or any "Cable" channels but who knows maybe they'll come in with different packages that will let you record some of them like the "Analog" tiers that they have now?


I doubt that the original question was so much about local channels. How many people pay for cable just to watch those channels that are available for free?

Who knows... maybe..... these are all speculations. That's why I said that no one can say now what's going to happen in 2009.

I am not clear on the law about not scrambling either. I get some of the locals - ABC, CBS, PBS, and several sub channels, but I am not getting NBC nor FOX. I wonder what exactly the law is. If they can't scramble them, are the required to carry them at all?

One think I am sure of is that the cable companies will make sure it is expensive, no matter what the outcome is for us. The HD switch will only be an excuse for them to raise prices with the easy argument "you're getting better quality".

I think that if they provide a local channel in digital, they must provide it in the clear (unencrypted). If they don't provide the local channel in digital, well, they don't have to provide it in the clear. TWC in my area hasn't worked out a deal with the WB so there is no digital broadcast of it at all via digital cable (what does appear on digital is just the analog signal converted to digital and then sent out, not the stations digital feed (I.e. HD when available)

I don't want to go the TIVO route; it just seems wrong to me to pay someone on a monthly basis for delayed viewing.


I agree. Just seems that the way to do it is to get one with a DVD-RAM and buy a bunch fo DVD-RAM discs then hope something with a HD comes out at some future point in time. I'm already sick of waiting!

This whole thing is rediculous. I am sure there are many folks (simpletons in the recording world I guess) like me. We have one cable box. Our **other** 4 tvs just have a coax line coming out of the wall, into a VCR into the TV. We record (in weekly mode) numerous shows while being able to watch whatever we want. Yes the coax offers most channels the box does, but not all and not the premiums. Again, my VCR is connected to this coax and records 8 different programs a week. If I understand correctly, I can buy the ES15 and hook it up like my VCR and life will stay the same for me until 2009---correct!I'll add my 2 cents with a different slant.

OK, here's your situation now. You have 2 devices, a TV and a VCR that each have a CATV analog tuner in them so each can simultaneously receive and use the signal coming out of the wall.

2 devices + 2 tuners = being able to watch TV and record at same time

At some point in the near future your cable co is going to shut off your analog and, aside from a few local channels, will encrypt all the channels you pay extra for. They may do this slowly, a couple channels at a time or they may do it in bigger chunks, but they will do it and they will do it ASAP because it benefits them huge. Because they will encrypt, you will need to RENT an STB to receive encrypted channels -- a QAM tuner is as useless as an analog tuner for encrypted digital. A STB is a digital tuner for encrypted cable.

1 STB = 1 tuner

Therefore if you want the same functionality of being able to record and watch TV at the same time, you still need each device to have it's own tuner.

watch & record = 2 tuners
2 tuners = 2 STBs (which you will pay to rent)

So, to solve your problem you just have to do the math for your situation. What's cheaper: rent a dual tuner DVR from the cable co (which has all the conveniences of one-touch cable guide recording and never having to change a tape or disk) or rent 2 STBs, plus the upfront cost of buying a DVD recorder (and then you get to go through the kludge of having to program 2 units to make a simple recording). "Cheaper" is not always measured in $$ alone.

That's what you are up against. With encrypted digital they have control of you and call the shots.

postscript: Obviously, when I write "record and watch TV at the same time" I mean 2 different channels.

kelson...thanks. So As I predicted I am being forced to RENT yet again, be it another cable box (which will be a pain to record from anyway) or a DVR. Obviously it seams it will be easier to record with the DVR and I suppose if I wanted to watch what was recorded on the DVR elsewhere I could burn it to my ES15...or no?


Sounds like another monopoly forming. Big brother no doubt will be able to see what I am recording with this DVR combo Cable box thing I bet too!

So I should start to think of the dvd recorder not as a recording medium for for tv shows but as an archive for my VHS taoes and shows I really like.

My only remaining question would be, Can I dump something from the DVR to the DVD recorder if I wanted too, specifically several episodes of *24* or *Lost* for example to take to miy bedroom for viewing if the kids are using the family room tv?

I expect if all this goes thru the cable company is going to be the only place to get a device to archive tv shows for later viewing....wonder what they will charge? I bet it adds up to more than the $100 the current dvd recorder goes for, and thats per year. I wonder how long until a black market ov DVR cable boxes starts up again? Where does all this leave TIVO...another servoce I really do not want anyway but had thought of getting their DVR and using it manually without their subscription service...if that is even possible anymore.

Where does all this leave TIVO...another servoce I really do not want anyway but had thought of getting their DVR and using it manually without their subscription service...if that is even possible anymore.

I don't believe that that is possible anymore :(...Since I use OTA only and like to watch recorded HD programs in HD, I'm hanging on to my two Sony DHG-HDD250 (HD DVR's) until they die.

Two pages worth of comments and not one review! Bleh!

Kelson, What you are describing is a dream for cable companies. They have been maneuvering themselves into this position of complete control for two decades.

AndreLaplume, I move content from my DVR (Tivo) to one of my DVD recorders all the time. The quality is excellent and, for movies, it allows me to know within a minute or two the exact running time so I can use the FR mode of my Panasonic to great advantage.

CHURCH AV GUY....but once 2009 comes and the DVR records the stuff on the *new* tuner...can that be dumped to the DVD recorder.

Oh, I see your question. With the current DVD recorders, there are only analog inputs, so you would still have to play it back and redigitize it. The one exception to this is the firewire input on some DVD recorders that accepts input, but only from camcorders.

With all that said, who knows what will be available by 2009? It is only two years away, and the frenzied way that content providers are covering their, um, content, I seriously doubt that a digital-to-digital perfect transfer will be welcome by the industry. Still, one can hope. We are already seeing the high def content being down converted to 480i if you use some less than secure interconnects, so I really don't have too much hope for what you are suggesting.

[rabbit trail alert!]
By the way, a digital copy from MY DVR wouldn't work anyway because it is the DirecTivo, and it doesn't store the content in MPEG-2 form on the hard drive, it stores the DirecTV signal in its raw form. This works well, because watching the programming "live" and playing it back shows no difference since the same signal is being sent to the receiver circuitry. In fact, there is no real watching it live. If you tune in to a station, what you are seeing is the playback of the live buffer that was just written to the hard drive. If you compare the Tivo "live" output to a non Tivo unit, the HR10-250 DirecTivo will always a be just a bit behind the non Tivo unit because of the write, then read nature of the beast.

So as I figured, we are all screwed. I'll need a dvd recorder to burn VHS or mini dv videos...thats all....the price better get down to $39 if thats all I can use it for. I check with my cable company...it $13 a month for a dvr which is not even available in my area yet. Screw that. When the crap hits the fan I 'll start looking for black market stuff....the more these companies become a monoploy the more chance someone will try to circumvent them. This stinks. Maybe there will be some cheapo filiter you can buy to convert everything back to analog....I am unsure from a tech pov if this is even possible....

CHURCH AV GUY....but once 2009 comes and the DVR records the stuff on the *new* tuner...can that be dumped to the DVD recorder.The answer is, yes, maybe.
Current DVRs have an analog output that was intended for you to hook up a VHS recorder to off-load (record from) the DVR. You can simply hook up any DVD recorder to these outputs because they go into the recording inputs of the DVDR and not though the tuner. You don't even need a tuner in a DVDR used for this purpose and indeed a couple companies (i.e. Sony) have introduced recent models without any tuner for just this purpose. So from that perspective, any DVDR you buy will be suitable for recording from the DVR. Note that the way this is done is to "play" the show on the DVR in realtime and turn on the DVD recorder to capture it. A HDD DVDR is a great benefit here because you can just que several shows to play from the DVR before you go to bed and let them spool to the HDD without the worry of single disk capacity.

The "maybe" comes from the general uncertainty as to what cable co's will do with the copy-once/copy-never flags once they go all digital. If they start tagging popular content with these you may not be able to record to DVD a lot of what you want. As far as that goes, we will all have to wait and see.

I am shopping for a ATSC Tuner with DVD recorder capabilities. I came across this thread and found this had been inactive for a while. So anybody of you tested the Panasonics and if so would like a feedback please? Thank you
Sailakfan

I am shopping for a ATSC Tuner with DVD recorder capabilities. I came across this thread and found this had been inactive for a while. So anybody of you tested the Panasonics and if so would like a feedback please? Thank you
Sailakfan

I've seen reviews on Amazon.com and some at videohelp.com

I am shopping for a ATSC Tuner with DVD recorder capabilities. I came across this thread and found this had been inactive for a while. So anybody of you tested the Panasonics and if so would like a feedback please? Thank you
SailakfanThere are currently being released DVD recorders with SD ATSC tuners. But, I am not aware of any HD ATSC tuners with DVD recorder capability. A lot of people here are waiting for such a device.