Fellow Enthusiasts, just a few days ago,I walked into a small HIFI dealers on the outskirts of London and asked if they had any PJs on dem. Yes, we have a Sim PJ on show - I believe its running as we speak. As soon as I saw the image this thing was producing I knew I was looking at something special. The material was HD from a Sky broadcast. As I watch exclusively SD DVD I was keen to see how these looked. After picking my jaw up off of the floor, I thought WOW this is clearly a huge step up from what I've been used to, and so noted its C3x model number. Sadly, I had very little time to spare and so had to leave - not having asked after the price tag. I later found out why the Sim c3x looked so good - it had to - considering its £13000 price tag!

I have been reading all your very favourable comments on the JVC RS1 (HD1 here in the UK I believe) It appears to be setting new standards - outperforming the highly regarded Pearl and Ruby PJs which I was considering until recently.

I'd like to know if anyone seen these two projectors (Sim2 C3x / JVC RS1) in a similar environment and can therefore comment as to the performance gap (or indeed lack of?!) between them.

Oh, one other thing - the RS1 looks very similar to the Meridian 1080MF1. It couldn't be the same chassis could it?

Both projectors have their pros and cons, with the C3X having a higher light output and better depth in brighter scenes compared to the HD1, but the HD1 will have better contrast and black level so more depth in darker scenes. Both look different since they are different technologies, and the HD1 is 1080 whilst the C3X (now form £9,999) is 720. I like them both, and it's a pity you can't combine the best bits of them to make one. :)

For the price the HD1 is a bargain IMHO, but you have to see them both to appreciate the differences and if the C3X is worth the extra cost.

Gary

What I really would like to see are a few screen shots comparing the C3X or the Sim2 3000 1080p with the JVC RS-1. Unfortunately, it difficult for me to see these projectors where I live so if someone has the ability to post them that would be awesome. As always, I realise screens shots don't tell the whole story of what a projector really can do. Greg

If the funds allow, a good strategy is to pick up now the JVC or almost comparable Mitsubishi or Panny 1080p then upgrade in less than a couple of years.

You'll be kickin' yourself if you buy the older C3X and Sim2 turns around with a C5X in less than 2 years.

Thanks Chaps

Gary - sounds like my home cinema heaven isn't as far away as I thought ! Leastways it seems as though there isn't a huge gulf in performance twixt these two PJs - just perhaps personal preferences which will depend not least upon screen size and HC environment (mine will be totally light controlled and most probably have dark walls)

Greg - know just how you feel - getting to see these PJs is difficult for me too - hence the post !

So - keep the comments coming please !

Loftboy

I later found out why the Sim c3x looked so good - it had to - considering its £13000 price tag!


It looked good because it was expensive? :)

At the high end (best picture) there is currently a very poor correlation between performance and price. Many cheaper projectors easily outperform more expensive ones.

I fully understand what your saying Tryg - and am so glad to hear you say that it's not always what you pay for a PJ that dictates it's performance. What I was meaning was that the image was so much better than anything I'd seen before. (3years of development had intervened since my last experience!) I had no idea of the price of the Sim c3x, and like I said - at £10,000 it better be better than good. That said, It's VERY good to know similar perfomance can be had at a fraction of the cost!

The C3X is a great performer. But 2 years old. alot has changed in two years. Keep your eyes open, and check out the latest offerings. View as many as you can.

Tryg, you no doubt have seen these three projector the C3X, Sim2 3000 and the RS-1. Apart from cost which order would you rate them for overall performance, color, contrast, brightness and depth. I know many prefer the RS-1 over the C3X and even the Marantz but what about the Sim2 3000 1080p. Thanks Greg

I have seen the 3000 side by side with the C3X. They are both worthy performers.

It would be a tough call between the two. C3X is slightly brighter, 3000 is cleaner (1080p). One has RBE one doesn't. The decision for me would be dictated by the setup and if you found RBE intolerable. The 3000 is comparable to the Marantz and Sharp.

I personally think all these have been eclipsed by the RS in performance and it's time for DLP manufacturers to rethink their pricing structure.

I concur with Tryg and the JVC has set a benchmark. will DLP react ? the architecture of a 3DLP 1080p is very complex + the cost of the chips so they can not compete in pricing.
Funny JVC is so successful with the RS1 HD1 while beind sold by Matsushita for $650Million.
the official reason being the poor sales of RPTVs on the US market.

JVC has again set up a HUGE major technological breakthrough with the massive native contrast ratio.

Lets be truthful. Leaving price out of this both technologies have their advantages.

The Sim 3 chip DLP still has that high ANSI contrast with that punch and superior brightness.
Because the dynamic range is so wide blacks look very deep even if Lcos measures better. The extra coin also buys you additional on board features including aspect ratio control, grey scale adjustment etc.

The RS1 has better on/off contrast. If you like horror movies you will love the RS1. Features are not as abundant but you are getting a great picture for less money. Replacement bulbs are also cheaper.

Its rare you ever hear technical related complaints from anyone buying 3 chip DLP. They seam to happily fade away into the sunset enjoying their projector avoiding those threads typically associated with the value machines.

DLP and Lcos both have a different look which you need to view for yourself to decide which fits your needs. You may hear the typical "You will be sorry for buying that pricey DLP" but a % of those people will find themselves up grading come Cedia while you hang in there a few more years enjoying your 3 chip DLP.

Remember, when coming to these forums with such a question you will always get a 10 to 1 ratio telling you the buy the flavor of the week which typically will always be the cheaper machine. The word cheap does not mean it does not deliver the goods.
The performance to price ratio gap has closed over the last few years allowing more and more people to experience 1080p. Many wonder if TI FP products will lower price to compete with Lcos/SXRD but I wonder over time if Lcos/SXRD manufactures because of the high customer service expectations will return to higher pricing. We will have to see.

Good luck!!

If you like horror movies you will love the RS1.

What about other movies? Will they look good too? :D

What about other movies? Will they look good too? :D

Thats where each have to view both technologies. On brigter movies and sports DLPs higher ANSI grabs a lot of peoples attention.

It's true. All these projectors will please most everyone.

The real competition over the next few years isn't gonna be picture quality, it will be price. We're there for picture quality from these projectors. It's now time for sources to improve

Apart from the punch and depth of image mentioned above, I also find that the SIM2 DLP's (C3X, HT3000, D80) have sharper more detailed images than the LCOS/SXRD projectors. the LCOS/SXRD technology -- though more cost effective -- produces a "softer" picture. Some would counter that it is not "soft", but rather "film-like". I like a strong value as much as the next guy, but if I knew what I was missing by going for the "value" machine -- even though I could afford better -- I'd be forever kicking myself that I didn't cowboy up for the superior product. Better not to know what you're missing -- better to rationalize that it's not worth the upcharge.

Remember, when coming to these forums with such a question you will always get a 10 to 1 ratio telling you the buy the flavor of the week which typically will always be the cheaper machine.

Good luck!!

What a wise old man you are......

:D

Another thing to remember in these considerations is that price is not solely about resolution or lumens. It often has a lot to do with overall quality, size and, most importantly - optics. I would guess that the optics used in the C3X are somewhat superior in quality than the cheaper units, along with other components.

But, in the end, you're still comparing apples and oranges. People like to say "take price out of the equation...", but it's not realistic or possible. Price is almost always the bottom line, except in unusual circumstances. So, is it fair to draw such comparisons? Not if you leave out the "why" of the higher price, such as the lenses and convenience features and costly components. You can't just compare two images and draw a qualitative conclusion based on their price points. And comparing the two different technologies is far too subjective to be very meaningful when that's added to this already botched equation.

Sims has been my favorite PJ ever since two years ago I saw one demo which projected some 720p material from a harddisk and the image projected was some 250 inches. The impact was so good I thought I would never see another similar one until we met JVC.

I am sure it puts out a great bright image, but I am thinking it really is going to depend on how you intend to use it. It seems to me that the only situations in which the C3X would be better are in a very large screen, 140"diag +, or if you like very bright images.

If your screen was not super large, and you have light fairly adequately controlled, I cant see how the C3X will be able to put out a better image. This was debated last year with the Ruby, and the RS1 seems to be much better than the Ruby, to me. Probably could apply this argument to any of the good 1080p PJs.

Greg Rogers has recently reviewed some of the best 1 chip 1080p DLPs very recently and when pressed has offerred that he would personally prefer a good unit RS1, most of our units seem to be good, over the other 1080p PJs, which include the Marantz, the Sharp, and the Sonys (LCoS.)

If your screen was not super large, and you have light fairly adequately controlled, I would not want to bet against a nice 1080p, 15000:1 native contrast, PJ.

I have the C3X, and if you need the brightness...it is for sale. :)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10236039&&#post10236039

Higher ANSI has it's advantages, In some scenes no other technology comes close.

Pros and cons etc.

Gary

Free, dont you have both right now?

We have the RS1 in one room and the C3X in the next room, and we have yet to have even one person prefer the RS1. What does that tell you? People like brighter projectors? People are stupid? People don't know what to look for? I'm sure some of that is true, but I think there's more to it than that. Alan's post hit the nail on the head. There's something about high ANSI contrast, superior optics, sharpness, brightness and the other aspects of a great projector that easily overcome the lack of deep blacks.

The RS1 is very good at its price point, but it's not the projector that will make me upgrade from my C3X. Not even close.

If I was a retailer, I would definitely want to sell the projector that gave me the most margin. I certainly would setup my PJs to showcase them. 8)

Thats what I would do, anyways.

Free, dont you have both right now?

Yes I do have both. I am using the RS1, because I don't need the brightness of the C3X. Both are excellent projectors.

We have the RS1 in one room and the C3X in the next room, and we have yet to have even one person prefer the RS1. What does that tell you? People like brighter projectors?

Then you should take the projector that gives you the largest margin for sales an put it on a high gain screen. It will be brighter than anything else, outsell everything else and you will be a rich man :)

Yes I do have both. I am using the RS1, because I don't need the brightness of the C3X. Both are excellent projectors.

Nice. 8)

I think we're finally beginning to reach "golden ears" territory for front projectors. Most of the glaring errors have been corrected at this point, and all these projectors are converging on basically the same image. One has better ANSI contrast, one has better overall contrast, one is brighter, one has more faithful color reproduction, one has higher resolution, and so on, and so on, but the actual difference in image between these projectors is getting so small that it's beginning to require a lot of sophistication to even see the difference.

What's the difference between a $5,000 amp and a $15,000 amp? Some can hear it and care enough about the difference to spend the extra money, and some don't care. Personally, I'm all about "bang for the buck." I can afford the higher-priced toys, but I'm actually happier when I can say to myself, "I got a great deal, I'm a clever consumer, I have a picture that's 95% of the high end for 1/3rd the price." It makes me feel good about myself. Other people get a kick out of being a descriminating listener or viewer, just as some people are happy with a $15 bottle of wine and some people are proud of being able to tell the difference between multi-hundred or thousand dollar bottles of wine. It really comes down to whatever tips your boat. In the end, you have to weigh the pros and cons yourself and how they stack up to your own values and self image. Being the cheap bastard that I am, I couldn't be happier than with the RS1.

"If you like horror movies you will love the RS1."

I'm not a big horror fan (I like some), but since so many action/adventure movies also have so many dark scenes, I want the best CR I can get. I'm tired of seeing dark scenes having no/little depth or shadow detail on my Panny 900. I don't need a "light cannon" nor do I need perfectly exact colors (although RS1 over-saturation may distract), I simply would like to see the detail in shadows for a change, and see blacks rather than greys.

As for resolution, my recently acquired Toshiba XA2 is amazing even on my Panny 900, especially with SD DVD's! What I need is BLACKS with shadow highlights. BTW, I'm projecting on a 110" Carada matte white screen from 14 feet.

Sorry to interject.

"What's the difference between a $5,000 amp and a $15,000 amp?"

With all other parts of the system being equal, I doubt there is an objective listening difference, providing they are both solid-state. There is discernable difference between tube and solid-state amps - a bit of warmth with tubes. Even then, the average listener wouldn't notice it.

That said, I agree, we are reaching the point of diminishing returns video wise - much like we have with audio. However, there is still some room for improvement in video. CRT is the standard and digital PJ's have yet to match the CR and blacks. Give me BLACKS without a batcave!

If the funds allow, a good strategy is to pick up now the JVC or almost comparable Mitsubishi or Panny 1080p then upgrade in less than a couple of years.

You'll be kickin' yourself if you buy the older C3X and Sim2 turns around with a C5X in less than 2 years.


I went back and forth between the panny, mits and pearl...until i saw the press release and first review of the RS-1. With ADZ's help, I am the proud owner of the RS-1 (for not TOO much more than the panny, mits or pearl) and couldn't be happier. I hope it is my LAST projector for a while.

I have seen the 3000 side by side with the C3X. They are both worthy performers.

It would be a tough call between the two. C3X is slightly brighter, 3000 is cleaner (1080p). One has RBE one doesn't. The decision for me would be dictated by the setup and if you found RBE intolerable. The 3000 is comparable to the Marantz and Sharp.

I personally think all these have been eclipsed by the RS in performance and it's time for DLP manufacturers to rethink their pricing structure.


I cannot watch single chip DLP's because the rainbows drive me nuts. For the price, I think you will be hard pressed to find anything comparable to the RS-1. It is an amazing picture.

It's true. All these projectors will please most everyone.

The real competition over the next few years isn't gonna be picture quality, it will be price. We're there for picture quality from these projectors. It's now time for sources to improve

well manufacturers are on the brink of losing pricing power imho.... it's too cheap
(lol except SIM2, Marantz Runco).
JVC SONY BENQ OPTOMA who have the market bulk are in a dangerous pricing war.

You'll be kickin' yourself if you buy the older C3X and Sim2 turns around with a C5X in less than 2 years.


Then we should be all kicking ourselves because we bought a car, that then came out with a newer model, a microwave oven that then came out with a cheaper version, and ipod that then came out with a slimmer case, a suit that two years from now will be out of style ...

Do you expect, out of all the industries, CE to come to a halt?

Blink, make a decision and don't look back ...

Cheers

Do you expect, out of all the industries, CE to come to a halt?

Blink, make a decision and don't look back ...

Cheers
I agree, but the difference that people are feeling is that the industry is moving faster than Moore's law. Wasn't the Sony Quaila $29,000 a couple of years ago? Isn't the RS1 better in some ways? as good in others? not as good in just a few? Things are moving so FAST.

Yeah, I was looking at these two and ended up getting an HD1. Quite simply, the C3X can't touch the contrast ratio, black level and processing (I haven't seen the C3Xs with the newer chipsets) of the HD1. The HD1 is 1080p so you can pretty much sit as close as you want and don't have to worry about downscaling to 720p. Its much more flexible and about a third of the price of the C3X. sim2 will undoubtedly show a 1080p version of the C3X this winter, at least thats what reps told me, I couldn't justify 720p at that price. Yes, the C3X is brighter but I have used around 300 hours on my HD1, with a 8' wide 2.35:1 screen and its still plenty bright enough. As for dark scenes, they are simply stunning, and who doesn't enjoy Star Wars ;)
Yes, the C3X has more depth in bright scenes and DLP is sharper but not £5500 worth, IMO. I do eventually want 3 chip DLP, but only when its 1080p and a price that isn't ridiculous.

Then we should be all kicking ourselves because we bought a car, that then came out with a newer model, a microwave oven that then came out with a cheaper version, and ipod that then came out with a slimmer case, a suit that two years from now will be out of style ...

Do you expect, out of all the industries, CE to come to a halt?

Blink, make a decision and don't look back ...

Cheers

No, CE will not come to a halt but there are logical limits to technology that are worth consdiering. For instance, there is no point in getting a projector, for the home, that has a higher resolution than 1080p. Likewise, we are nearing a point where improvement in on/off CR will make little difference, 50,000 to 100,000 to 1,000,000? ANSI CR is one area where I can see improvements being made and I am sure LCOS manufacturers will target this for next models, likewise with DLP manufacturers. Of course, you will need a batcave to appreciate it. Smaller and quieter would be nice too.

I don't know about you but I am going to do an awful lot of blinking before spending £10000 on a PJ. I probably wouldn't dare look back after spending that much either.

I haven't heard too much about the cost of ownership of these projectors. I watch a lot of movies which relates to adding many hours on a projector. Do most people use every ounce of light out of their lamps and take the lamps to their expected lamp life and beyond, or do they upgrade near the mid point of the lamps life to keep their images as bright as possible? I have to add another part to the equation when picking the "perfect" projector for me... which is how much does a new lamp cost. I've seen many lamps going for $300 and some for $1000, and IMHO, if two projectors are really close in performance, the cheaper lamp will sway me in that direction.

Then we should be all kicking ourselves because we bought a car, that then came out with a newer model, a microwave oven that then came out with a cheaper version, and ipod that then came out with a slimmer case, a suit that two years from now will be out of style ...

Do you expect, out of all the industries, CE to come to a halt?

Blink, make a decision and don't look back ...

Cheers

Wow. I understand what you are trying to say, but I don't think those comparisons drive home your point at all. I wish there were a market for lease projectors though, then I would do a 2 year No money down on the C3X until the 5X came out :>)

This is very cool. I have been gone for right at a year. I have had my C3X since they first came out and I am still very happy with it. I am glad to see its still being talked about and near the top in performance. I have had no problems with mine and have no desire to upgrade. Not sure how many hours are on my machine as I have not looked in a while but its still bright as ever. I still run the bulb on low on a .8 gray 110 inch screen.

Good luck with your choice. I doubt you could go wrong with either but if you want bright, don't overlook the C3X.

Jeff

It's true. All these projectors will please most everyone.

The real competition over the next few years isn't gonna be picture quality, it will be price. We're there for picture quality from these projectors. It's now time for sources to improve

My conclusion also. After BD and HDDVD what do you have in mind?

Well, for what its worth, I still have one of the first C3X projectors and it has performed flawlessly. It produces one of the most watchable images I have seen. On my Firehawk the blacks are great and the brightness and colors are stunning even after 800hrs at the low 200watt setting. This is the first projector I've owned whose satisfaction levels have removed the desire to upgrade. I will probably be watching this until it finally curls up and doesn't work anymore.

On a slightly different note, I have never really been convinced that 1080p by itself brings significant increases in picture quality over and above that of 720p especially from viewing idstances of 1.8 and further. To me the real advances will be in the quality of source material, significant increases in brghtness to a level similar to the C3X , advances in color management and deep deep blacks where there are is no puppet show to be had.

Finally I note that this thread is about comparing C3X picture quality with the RS1. Let me state that I have not yet seen the RS1 and so cannot make this comparison directly. I've been too busy enjoying my home theater these days. However, DLP as a technology does have an edge on clarity compared to DILA and LCOS. The reason for this is simple. In the DILA world the light has to penetrate the LCD layer, hit the reflective material beneath and then bounce back out throught the LCD substrate. In other words, the light passes throught the panel twice on route to the projector lense and screen. This I think may account for the somewhat soft or filmic look that this technology is well known for. Regarding DLP, the light path is simpler. It just bouces off the mirrors in one hit and causes no degradation of information. This would also suggest that DLP is capable of greater fine detail retreival compared to DILA/LCOS, at least theoretically. There is an interesting issue here, DLP is often criticised for revealing noise in the picture while DILA/LCOS is described as 'blending' the image and disguising the noise. Recently JVC seem to have improved the clarity of their RS1 projector resulting in an image that has begun to pick up more of the noise inherent in the source. You win some you lose some I guess.

Regards,

Paul H

Well, for what its worth, I still have one of the first C3X projectors and it has performed flawlessly. It produces one of the most watchable images I have seen. On my Firehawk the blacks are great and the brightness and colors are stunning even after 800hrs at the low 200watt setting. This is the first projector I've owned whose satisfaction levels have removed the desire to upgrade. I will probably be watching this until it finally curls up and doesn't work anymore.

On a slightly different note, I have never really been convinced that 1080p by itself brings significant increases in picture quality over and above that of 720p especially from viewing idstances of 1.8 and further. To me the real advances will be in the quality of source material, significant increases in brghtness to a level similar to the C3X , advances in color management and deep deep blacks where there are is no puppet show to be had.

Finally I note that this thread is about comparing C3X picture quality with the RS1. Let me state that I have not yet seen the RS1 and so cannot make this comparison directly. I've been too busy enjoying my home theater these days. However, DLP as a technology does have an edge on clarity compared to DILA and LCOS. The reason for this is simple. In the DILA world the light has to penetrate the LCD layer, hit the reflective material beneath and then bounce back out throught the LCD substrate. In other words, the light passes throught the panel twice on route to the projector lense and screen. This I think may account for the somewhat soft or filmic look that this technology is well known for. Regarding DLP, the light path is simpler. It just bouces off the mirrors in one hit and causes no degradation of information. This would also suggest that DLP is capable of greater fine detail retreival compared to DILA/LCOS, at least theoretically. There is an interesting issue here, DLP is often criticised for revealing noise in the picture while DILA/LCOS is described as 'blending' the image and disguising the noise. Recently JVC seem to have improved the clarity of their RS1 projector resulting in an image that has begun to pick up more of the noise inherent in the source. You win some you lose some I guess.

Regards,

Paul H

I recently spent some time with the C3X and thought it was a nice PJ. I preferred the image to the D80 when both fed HD source material although the D80 had more visible detail and was sharper.

It's still a trade off as some aspects of the JVC are better than the C3X. So personally I could not justify 3-4 x the price of the JVC based on my viewing experience and requirements.

My advice as always is for people to go view with their own eyes. :)

Dazzrer

L and M home theater in Tempe Az next to Phoenix carry a full line of Sim2 projectors. The Ht 5000, C3X, 3000 and D80, they may even get an RS-1 for demo. Check it out and let us know your impressions of each projector if your in the area. Thanks Greg

Hi Dazzrer,

I must say that having A/B'ed the D80 and the C3X lite at a distance of about 1.8 I could not see the differences in detail you allude to. To my eye, the superior brightness of the C3X seemed to make the image clearer if anything. I am not saying that detail retreival is identical for 1080p and 720p, just that practically at present with the source as it is etc, I cant find anything significant. Both projectors were correctly calibrated and the room was pretty much a cave environment. Do you have specific scenes in mind where these differences are more pronounced? It would be really helpful if you or someone on the forum in the know could direct me to such comparisons. I'm always on the lookout for good movie test material of this type.

Regards,

Paul H

You'd need to be at 1.5 maximum widths to see the difference. At 1.8 widths the visual acuity of 20/20 vision is unable to resolve the detail. You'd need to be closer or have a decent sized screen. Makes you think about 1080 on small screens (below 6 feet.) in even a modest room.

Also when choosing between the C3x and RS1 dont forget the massive ANSI cr difference. The RS1 will only give around 300. The C3x, HT3k and D80 will give around 700-800. The budget price of the JVC is a big factor that helps mitigate its limitations. Get a demo.

I love my C3X and I can't wait till I get my hand on a 1080p version of C3x. The Buck stops at C3X.

Hi Dazzrer,

I must say that having A/B'ed the D80 and the C3X lite at a distance of about 1.8 I could not see the differences in detail you allude to. To my eye, the superior brightness of the C3X seemed to make the image clearer if anything. I am not saying that detail retreival is identical for 1080p and 720p, just that practically at present with the source as it is etc, I cant find anything significant. Both projectors were correctly calibrated and the room was pretty much a cave environment. Do you have specific scenes in mind where these differences are more pronounced? It would be really helpful if you or someone on the forum in the know could direct me to such comparisons. I'm always on the lookout for good movie test material of this type.

Regards,

Paul H


I was sitting about just under 1.5 screens. Select any HD DVD or BD :)

Dazzer

Hi Dazzer,

I should think at that distance the screen door on a 720p machine would be more of a consideration even before you get into issues of extra fine detail. If you sit at the 1.5 distance or nearer, then 1080p is probably a must.

Regards,

Paul H

Hi Dazzer,

I should think at that distance the screen door on a 720p machine would be more of a consideration even before you get into issues of extra fine detail. If you sit at the 1.5 distance or nearer, then 1080p is probably a must.

Regards,

Paul H

Paul

That was one of the main considerations and the D80 image just wasn't to my taste.

Dazzer

If you have an eight foot wide screen then a 720 C3X would work well if you sit 12 feet or more back? Wouldn't that be 1.5 screen back? Normally our family sits 15 to 18 feet back. Thanks Greg

If you have an eight foot wide screen then a 720 C3X would work well if you sit 12 feet or more back? Wouldn't that be 1.5 screen back? Normally our family sits 15 to 18 feet back. Thanks Greg

Yes, I think if you're sitting at ~ 2 SW (16 ft from your 8 ft W screen), there is little benefit of 1080 over 720 resolution, so the C3X should be about as good as you can get.

Anyone know where you can demo the C3X, 3000, RS-1 in California. Thanks Greg

I agree, but the difference that people are feeling is that the industry is moving faster than Moore's law. Wasn't the Sony Quaila $29,000 a couple of years ago? Isn't the RS1 better in some ways? as good in others? not as good in just a few? Things are moving so FAST.

I agree, the technological snowball effect is giving me the judders...it seems the only bad decision is to buy today!

This is one of those threads that will go round and round. The best projector is what works for you. Sim 2 and JVC realize their product will not fit all applications.

For instance the statement the C3X cannot touch the contrast of the RS1 I think you meant to say the RS1 cannot touch the contrast of the C3X. Wait, we are both right. The RS1 has better on/off the C3X has better ANSI. You can also start with the list of whats wrong with the RS1 and the C3X does those things better or vice versa.
I would never expect the RS1 owners to say the C3X is better and the I would never expect the C3X owners to say the RS1is better as everyone tends to justify their purchase.
This thread has no ending or right or wrong. When making your posts everyone should end their post with " this is my opinion based on what works for my needs"

The truth is that given two projectors with high contrast (as we have here), increasing the screen size will cause the brighter projector to look better.

For screens less than 100 inches single chip DLP is excellent. But what happens when the bulb ages and loses 50% of its brightness?

Why pay double for a smaller screen with more heat and audible noise being generated into the room?

All this being said I love this years slim Samsung UHP r*** DLPs. I saw the Doobie Brothers concert on HDNET last night and was blown away by the extreme natural clarity and fidelity. True 1080p! Note: waiting on the 4*2 HDMI Integra 9.8 Reon based A/V controller. No time to argue here! :)

the C3X offers incredible colorimetry when calibrated, punch and great ansi contrast which adds depth to the dailight scenes.
the JVC offers 2K resolution, no pixel structure and no added noise and great night scenes. only average to poor daylight scenes from the source show the superiority of DLP.
take dailight scenes of LA CONFIDENTIAL or TEARS OF THE SUN or PIRATES 1: they look great on both (the RS1 HD1 holding well even though its ansi contrast is lower). because the sce punchy and contrasty in itself.
but a flatter lest constrated scene will hold better on the DLP.
so what to do ? there's no cheap 3DLP 1080 coming anytime soon (!) and the LCOS technology still has to improve the ansi contrast (500:1 would be marvelous from 250:1)
Pick your poison.

http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/columbia_pictures/tears_of_the_sun/bruce_willis/tears2.jpg
when the sce has great contrast depth by itself (filmed/photographed that way and encoded corretly), then the lower ansi contrast is less an issue imho.

Rules of engagement also great contrasted scenes. (forget format of the photos)
http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/paramount_pictures/rules_of_engagement/tommy_lee_jones/rules2.jpg

Thats where each have to view both technologies. On brigter movies and sports DLPs higher ANSI grabs a lot of peoples attention.

You know I love the ANSI punch Idea , especially when it makes no sense

Take a room with a reflectivity of only 1 percent and your Ansi punch goes down from 600/1 to 140/1 so for most 99 percent of consumers buying projectors with high Ansi punch is like keeping a tooth fairy in the closet. for all practical purposes it does not exist.

ANSI punch drunk more like it

Next time a someone shows you a 3 chip DLP and raves about the ANSI punch , tell him or her to put up a checkerboard pattern on the screen and measure the ANSI contrast at the screen. I will bet you that you do not measure over 300 to 1 even in what you think is a very dark room. You put those cute theater lights on the side and you will be lucky to measure 200:1.


What most people are responding to is just a brighter image. You play loud speakers louder and they sound better. You make an image brighter and you see a sharper image or you think you see a sharper image.

I had some moron demonstrate a Sim2 projector on a 72 inch diagonal 6x gain sillver hawk and it had an unbelievable amount of PUNCH. I calculated the Brightness at 50 ftlamberts. It was punching all the cones in my eye right back into my brain stem but it had a lot of punch.

It was punching all the cones in my eye right back into my brain stem but it had a lot of punch.

lol

Either the ANSI goes down an equal amount, in the same room, on Lcos, or it is some other factor, but the C3X has more than just an improvement in brightness over the JVC, it has an increased sense of depth to the image.

When I calibrate my C3X to the same brightness as my RS1, there is a noticeable difference, so it is not just more lumens punching my retina.

Low ANSI contrast is often quite visible in mixed scenes, with brighter dark areas around the brighter parts even in ideal viewing conditions. It was especially noticeable in fp CRTs and is still noticeable in LCoS although the halo effect isn't anywhere near as pronounced.

Gary

It's true. All these projectors will please most everyone.

The real competition over the next few years isn't gonna be picture quality, it will be price. We're there for picture quality from these projectors. It's now time for sources to improve

I think most people ,when they talk about ANSI punch are just responding to the higher brightness of DLP projectors. Most rooms are not dark enough to see the differences

I really like the 3000E but it put out 1100 lumens at D65 and it has a very good projection lens. I think the MTF of the projection lens and the lateral color distortion is more important in producing razor sharp images than what technology is used in the chip.

You take a 720P 2000 dollar single chip projector and feed it with a good HD /dvd or blue ray, it will look a lot better than a 50,000 plus projector fed a standard dvd source.

For non theater rooms ,I really like a retro-reflector screen because it rejects reflected light from the screen much better than any of the reflection screens
Also the eye does not care how the brightness of an object is produced, whether its from a high lumen projector or a high gain screen, the effect is the same and the punch is the same.

I always found the c3x to smear details in darker areas of a picture when mixed with bright areas on the same film frame. IMO of course. The Rs1 does not do this. The processing in the rs1 is superior IMO. Nothing against dlp in general as I have a sharp 20000 myself and decided on it against the rs1 for personal preference.

For the price the JVC-RS1 is quite ok, even though I would probably take the Sim2 D75 instead as it is alot more transparent, better color fidelity and much better optics and cleaner processing and better judderless 24p mode.

Having seen the Sim2C3X1080 recently even though quite uncalibrated it was able to produce a picture that literally had more potential than anything else on the market at this point. And I think that the aftermath of CES 2008 won't change that.

For sure the sim2C3X1080 and the sim2 5000 are in a class of there own.

For sure the sim2C3X1080 and the sim2 5000 are in a class of there own.

They certainly are price-wise.

The rs1 does 'almost' everything right for a fraction of the price of the sim2 products. No wonder this projector gets the attention it does.;) If I was RBE sensitive the RS2 would have been my next choice after my recent sharp 20000 purchase.

Hi Frank456,

I don't really agree with you that the C3X 720p smears detail in the dark scenes. Having owned this pj for over 2 years the shadow detail is very good especially on my 92 inch wide Firehawk. The black level was one of the reasons I bought this model as it represented a big step forward at the time. It does not quite have the pop of the RS 1 in dark scenes however. The overall quality of the color, blacks and brightness still make it a worthy contender especially if the price is right.

Regards,

Paul H

Maybe I should elaborate a little more on what I noticed. On bright scenes or dark scenes the c3x is magnificent. On individual film frames which show a very bright scene on one side of the picture along with a very dark image on the other side shadow detail or smearing tends to flatten out the image in the darker portion of the display.

Could have been a calibration issue on the particular unit I seen. I would take a c3x home any day of the week.