Looks like those people planning on using their current DVD recorders for analog recordings past 2009, may be in for a surprise. So maybe we all need to look for a recorder with an QAM tuner so that at least we don't have to pay additional fees for STB's for our secondary TV's....albiet, you can only watch / record "in the clear stations"

It seems that Comcast in Chicago (http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-0704050706apr06,0,2945392.story?coll=chi-business-hed) has decided to screw all their analog only customers. They are turning off analog for everything but the locals.

So, they are giving each customer a "Free" STB for the primary TV (no fee increase) and all other TV's forcing the customer to pay additional monthly fees. It says by the end of 2008 they will have no analog at all, thus making customers that still have analog only sets go black before the OTA folks.

It will be interesting to see what kind of backlash this has their their customers. The two major complaints they should expect from their customers right away:

1) You mean I have to pay more tomorrow for the same service I'm getting today.? I want to watch ESPN (name your cable channel) in more than one room and now it will cost me more?

2) I liked it when I could record TLC (name your cable channel) on my VCR while I watched Discovery (name your cable channel) at the same time. Now I need an extra box to do that? This will cost me more?

3) Thank you, please cancel my account.

It will be fun to watch this. Can those of you in Chicago with Comcast keep us posted?

The only surprising thing here is the timing - I thought for sure the cable cos would use the 2/09 OTA analog shutdown as the excuse to do this since few folks would know there's no reason for them not to keep providing analog. I have a feeling the backlash would be high enough that the locals in analog will endure a bit longer than end of 08 - having gramma see Idol on the spare TV is real important. :rolleyes:

Even though they say it isn't a price increase....it really is. They get no additional channels or functionality, but actually less functionality and service. So if they wanted to keep the same functionality they would have to pay more...so in essence another price increase. Can't wait for the satellite companies to use this to their advantage.

It is a price increase if you have more than 1 TV, since they now will charge for additional outlets, $6/month in Maryland.

On the QAM tuner, I would say yes we need QAM tuners in new DVD-R machines, plus a CableCARD slot so we can record encrypted channels as well.

The only surprising thing here is the timing - I thought for sure the cable cos would use the 2/09 OTA analog shutdown as the excuse to do this since few folks would know there's no reason for them not to keep providing analog. I have a feeling the backlash would be high enough that the locals in analog will endure a bit longer than end of 08 - having gramma see Idol on the spare TV is real important. :rolleyes:

Maybe those DirecTV 100 HD channels in 2007 ads are getting to them (the flux capacitor guy), so they are trying to do whatever they can to reclaim bandwidth and boost their HD channel numbers, and perhaps accellerating their previous plans?

So maybe we all need to look for a recorder with an QAM tuner so that at least we don't have to pay additional fees for STB's for our secondary TV's

Why not just upgrade the TV and you will get a QAM tuner with it (mandated by law) - does Grandma really need DVD recorders all over the house or maybe just a new TV in the sewing room? So even if the Cable Co goes all digital she can still receive the locals + via cable.

why replace what works perfectly now? My grandparents are on a fixed income, so even if you buy a new TV you have to throw out the VCR. How does grandma record her shows with the new TV? Now you can tune the channels, but can't record them :(

Don't even ask grandma to hook up a STB to a VCR inputs and set them both to record properly, that will be too hard.

Why not just upgrade the TV and you will get a QAM tuner with it (mandated by law) - does Grandma really need DVD recorders all over the house or maybe just a new TV in the sewing room? So even if the Cable Co goes all digital she can still receive the locals + via cable.
If I'm not mistaken, QAM tuners are not mandated by the FCC. Only ATSC tuners are required.

Well good news is that so far all new DVD recorders do have QAM tuners. The bad news is that this doesn't help much, the unscrambled channels that they will tune are very few, and none of them have a cable card slot yet.

why replace what works perfectly now? My grandparents are on a fixed income, so even if you buy a new TV you have to throw out the VCR. How does grandma record her shows with the new TV? Now you can tune the channels, but can't record them :(

Don't even ask grandma to hook up a STB to a VCR inputs and set them both to record properly, that will be too hard.

Look - your original post was addressing the extra fees for STB's for "secondary TV's", which is what I was addressing in my post. I was not talking about the main TV (to which I presume is the TV grandma has the VCR connected and to which the Cable Co will provide the "free" digital STB).

My point was simply countering your assertion that those getting screwed by the Cable Cos going all digital that they should (or would be forced to) get DVD recorders with QAM tuners for all their secondary TVs (as the only alternative to renting the Cable Co STB for extra monthly fees). I was saying don't buy DVD recorders for every room, selectively upgrade the TVs or buy an el cheapo external tuner box (with QAM) instead, buying ATSC/QAM DVD recorders for every secondary TV is overkill vs. the other two options IMO (especially if Grandma is on a fixed income). Grandma won't have much choice come 2009 when she won't even be able to say screw the Cable Cos and go with OTA because then she will have to either have an ATSC tuner TV, a separate tuner, or other device (e.g., a DVD recorder with ATSC tuner).

Perhaps the problem was that your original post addressed both Grandma who on a fixed income is getting screwed by the Cable Cos for the extra secondary TV STB charges yet you also suggested that DVD recorders with QAM tuners would be an option vs. renting the Cable Cos. STB (how could Grandma afford to do either if she is on a fixed income?). My suggestion - replace aging TV or buy a cheap external tuner box (which the gov't. is supposedly going subsidize anyway) are options for grandma vs. the complex DVD recorder with digital tuner.

To be clear - there is no doubt that the Cable Cos are reaming their customers by unnecessarily forcing digital service on them - I'm not arguing that is NOT the case. I was just suggesting cheaper or more practical alternatives to having a DVD recorder with digital tuner (with the recorder likely going unused by grandma) in at every secondary TV. Hope that clears up where I was coming from (but somehow I think I will still be misconstrued).

If I'm not mistaken, QAM tuners are not mandated by the FCC. Only ATSC tuners are required.


Correct - but greater than 90% of today's devices with digital tuners incorporate both because they co-exist on today's generation digital tuner chips. Having ATSC without QAM will be the rare exception not the rule - and you can ensure you have QAM before you buy and eliminate those options which don't have it built in.

Correct - but greater than 90% of today's devices with digital tuners incorporate both because they co-exist on today's generation digital tuner chips. Having ATSC without QAM will be the rare exception not the rule - and you can ensure you have QAM before you buy and eliminate those options which don't have it built in.
I understand. I just didn't want others to think that if a device says that it has a digital tuner, that it would automatically have a QAM tuner.

There are some older devices (that are still available new) that have ATSC, but not QAM tuners. Personally, both of my digital tuner devices have both ATSC and QAM. I did the research and made sure that I'd be getting QAM.

ft

I understand. I just didn't want others to think that if a device says that it has a digital tuner, that it would automatically have a QAM tuner.

There are some older devices (that are still available new) that have ATSC, but not QAM tuners. Personally, both of my digital tuner devices have both ATSC and QAM. I did the research and made sure that I'd be getting QAM.

ft

Gotcha, thanks for clearing that up.

Okay I guess to sum it up, if you are in the market for a DVD recorder and a cable user then it would behoove you to look for a unit that has a QAM tuner. One without may not serve any use without an additional STB in the near future as it seems analog cable is going to go away faster than most had thought.

I would look for a QAM tuner regardless of your current situation - you could move, your antenna could crap out, all kinds of things could happen to make a QAM tuner useful when you thought you didn't need it. I'm OTA only but I wouldn't buy anything without QAM.

Okay I guess to sum it up, if you are in the market for a DVD recorder and a cable user then it would behoove you to look for a unit that has a QAM tuner. One without may not serve any use without an additional STB in the near future as it seems analog cable is going to go away faster than most had thought.

Problem with this is that so far only the LG clearly says "QAM" on the box, the manual, and the menus, while in reality all of the new models have it, just don't use the QAM designation.

So how exactly do you look for something, when it's not being clearly advertised as such?

Well good news is that so far all new DVD recorders do have QAM tuners.Including the forthcoming Philips model with the 160 GB hard drive? I know it wasn't specifically mentioned in the pre-release info. Has that been confirmed for sure by someone here since?

Including the forthcoming Philips model with the 160 GB hard drive? I know it wasn't specifically mentioned in the pre-release info. Has that been confirmed for sure by someone here since?

Well given that it hasn't even been released yet, we can't know for sure. But judging by the one without the HD, and all the other recorders, I think it's a fairly safe assumption that it will have the QAM tuner as well.

Unfortunately, the QAM-enabled stuff may turn out to be only a very short term benefit. Here in Madison, WI and a number of other places Charter now encypts most digital channels (all of ours are digital) that I used to be able to pick up with my QAM receivers. I don't believe cableco's are required to provide in-the-clear QAM channels and in their quest to control that digital signal I doubt that free ride will last for long.

I think there'll be enough customers requesting this feature (or bolt to sat) that some number of clear QAM chs will be available on most cable systems. Some will live in areas with lots or in an area such as yours with few. I doubt you'll have very many if any that will encrypt every ch - the local franchise authority will probably not allow that once analog is shut off.

Agreed.

While I understand WHY cable and phone companies are doing this (Verizon has it by default), many, many users, especially senior citizens who get confused on how to turn on a computer, will be pissed.

I'm going to love to see all these complaints that file in, and I hope there's a website where we can read them :).

But something I have not been able to find an answer too....


Will a QAM DVD recorder get 2-99 again, plus HDTV locals, or JUST HDTV locals? If it's the latter, getting it will be just about useless..

All current gen DVDrs with digital tuners still also have analog tuners, so you can get current analog cable.

We won't have to wait long for the complaints to start - it's happening in the Chicago area very soon.

Agreed.

While I understand WHY cable and phone companies are doing this (Verizon has it by default), many, many users, especially senior citizens who get confused on how to turn on a computer, will be pissed.

I'm going to love to see all these complaints that file in, and I hope there's a website where we can read them :).



But if they can't turn on a computer, how will all these complaints get on the web site? :D

Agreed.


But something I have not been able to find an answer too....


Will a QAM DVD recorder get 2-99 again, plus HDTV locals, or JUST HDTV locals? If it's the latter, getting it will be just about useless..


All new recorders so far I've tried have had both analog and digital tuners for antenna and cable.

The analog cable tuner goes from 2 to 120, the digital goes from 1 to 165. It will receive more than just the locals in HD but not much more. Any channel that is not scrambled by the cable company will be on. In my area i get CBS, ABC, three PBS, Disvoery HD, TNT, all the music choice channels, pay-per-view preview channels, and that's about it on QAM.

All new recorders so far I've tried have had both analog and digital tuners for antenna and cable.

The analog cable tuner goes from 2 to 120, the digital goes from 1 to 165. It will receive more than just the locals in HD but not much more. Any channel that is not scrambled by the cable company will be on. In my area i get CBS, ABC, three PBS, Disvoery HD, TNT, all the music choice channels, pay-per-view preview channels, and that's about it on QAM.


Then what's the point of making them, know what I mean? Most people don't care about what IS in QAM other than the locals. There's got to be a local house based solution that will enable all channels in clear QAM.

Not gonna happen (as far as on the cable company's end). They'll offer the first tuner free before they do that.

But that'll be the extent of it.

A better solution would be to lower their package prices, to make them more on a par with the satellite companies offerings - so that the additional tuners don't make the full price so darn much more expensive (than satellite, FIOS or whatever).

I think a lot of people are gonna be switching over to Dish when they find out about those "dual-tuners" they offer ;).

Most people don't care about what IS in QAM other than the locals.

That's the point - if you look at the what people watch, network programming makes up the great majority. A QAM tuner connected directly to cable will suffice for a great number of people's general viewing habits.

That's the point - if you look at the what people watch, network programming makes up the great majority. A QAM tuner connected directly to cable will suffice for a great number of people's general viewing habits.

That makes no sense to me. If all you want is local channels, why pay the cable company even $15 when you can get them for free from OTA? The quality of digital channels seems better than the one from cable too, and you also get program info and maybe program guides, which you do not if you tune them from the cable.

And all the new dvd recorders with ATSC don't have hard drives. Which I think is useless. Goes back to having a pileup of dvd-rw or dvd-ram discs to save all my recordings that I don't watch immediately (bsck to the vcr days although smaller space needed for the media). A number of us have bought the 2006 Panasonic models to have a spare recorder with hard drive in case the old one breaks.

Even if the cable box is free, it's a pain to record with. You have to have an IR transmitter and assume it works!

I would tell Comcast that the only reason I prefer cable over satellite is that I can use my vcr without a separate box. ANd if they make me use one then they have no advantage (especially price) and I will switch to cheaper satellite service and DSL.

That makes no sense to me. If all you want is local channels, why pay the cable company even $15 when you can get them for free from OTA? The quality of digital channels seems better than the one from cable too, and you also get program info and maybe program guides, which you do not if you tune them from the cable.
Not everyone can get OTA signals. There are boatloads of factors that go into whether you can get OTA or not. Getting locals via cable may be some people's only option.

People who live in cities may have it especially hard because of all of the buildings that block the TV signals. I know when I lived in the city, the buildings made it impossible to get good reception. It was analog, but I'm not sure if digital would be any different. Plus, the Verizon building across the street with all of the metal and equipment didn't help either.

The funny thing is that Philly didn't get cable TV (in the center city area, at least) until the early 90s. A lot of people must have suffered with terrible reception for a long time.

ft

I know that in some inner cities the building owner would put up an antenna on the top of the building and then have a way that each condo/apartment could plug into that antenna.

If you can get a good analog signal, you should be able to get and maintain a digital signal. Some of my analog signals are very weak / snowy (some even no color), but the digital signal comes in great and holds the signal, so YMMV

Not everyone can get OTA signals. There are boatloads of factors that go into whether you can get OTA or not. Getting locals via cable may be some people's only option.


ft

If that's true, it's a real shame, since a lot of people (i.e me) can't afford a cable bill. I have never, ever got good reception from OTA in analog no matter where, in the city, out of the city, I feel like you could be sitting next to the TV station and still get nothing. But with the digital tuner it's been awesome, and I am not even using an antenna.

Another thing to keep in mind is that it looks like cable companies don't always carry all local channels in HD. I am only getting ABC, CBS, and PBs, not getting NBC nor FOX. So if that's the case, there's no point in going for a QAM tuner over a previous generation recorder with an analog tuner and a hard drive.

I know that in some inner cities the building owner would put up an antenna on the top of the building and then have a way that each condo/apartment could plug into that antenna.

If you can get a good analog signal, you should be able to get and maintain a digital signal. Some of my analog signals are very weak / snowy (some even no color), but the digital signal comes in great and holds the signal, so YMMV
In the place I used to live in Philly, the antenna option was not really an option. Sure, we could have put an antenna on the roof, but when the building is only 3 stories high and you have 40 to 50 story buildings in between the TV transmitters and the roof, you're kinda SOL. I really don't know what the situation is anymore with digital signals, but I'm guessing that it isn't any better than it was in the early 90s.

If that's true, it's a real shame, since a lot of people (i.e me) can't afford a cable bill. I have never, ever got good reception from OTA in analog no matter where, in the city, out of the city, I feel like you could be sitting next to the TV station and still get nothing. But with the digital tuner it's been awesome, and I am not even using an antenna.

Another thing to keep in mind is that it looks like cable companies don't always carry all local channels in HD. I am only getting ABC, CBS, and PBs, not getting NBC nor FOX. So if that's the case, there's no point in going for a QAM tuner over a previous generation recorder with an analog tuner and a hard drive.Yeah, there's a lot of reasons that prevent some people from getting OTA signals. Trees, buildings, valleys, etc.

Actually, I plugged in a cheapo antenna to my TV for giggles and was amazed by how clear the OTA digital channels came in. But I'm living in the 'burbs and have a relatively clear shot to the TV transmitters.

Right now, I'm watching what happens with Comcast in Chicago. If they drop all of the analog channels and they don't place them on clearQAM, then I may as well drop Comcast and stick an antenna in the attic.

ft

I
Right now, I'm watching what happens with Comcast in Chicago. If they drop all of the analog channels and they don't place them on clearQAM, then I may as well drop Comcast and stick an antenna in the attic.

There's no reason to believe the chs you would get with an antenna won't be available in clear QAM even after they shut off analog. And they already said they're only shutting off (for now) the analog chs that are not available OTA.

There's no reason to believe the chs you would get with an antenna won't be available in clear QAM even after they shut off analog. And they already said they're only shutting off (for now) the analog chs that are not available OTA.

Just curious. Who is "they" and where was this said?

Comcast - in their announcement.

Just curious. Who is "they" and where was this said?

See post #1 in this thread for the link.

See post #1 in this thread for the link.

Got it - thanks. I thought it was the extended analog tier that was moving to digital.

Got it - thanks. I thought it was the extended analog tier that was moving to digital.
It is.

Just a comment, but the analog channels where I live are so riddled with ingress, that moving to digital will be a dramatic improvement in signal quality. So I would almost have to say this will be an improvement in service.

However, my bank of VCR's that I timeshift stuff on the under 100 channels will become quite useless.

We are definitely getting milked. and if we speak out, there's always steak...

6V,

What's "ingress" mean wrt to analog channels?

And you lost me on the "steak" comment (though I agree with you that we are getting "milked" or "bilked" [depending on your preferred choice of terms] by the cable Co's.). Guess I live a sheltered life...

Ingress typically means OTA RF signals are "leaking" into the cable coax and mixing with the cable RF signals. Poor shielding, bad grounds, poor connections and just plain high OTA power (i.e., living near the transmitting towers) are common causes.

The "steak" comment lost me also.

Aw guys, I thought the "steak" comment was obvious:

We're getting milked (we're cows), if we speak out, its off to the slaughter house for us.... to be "steak!"

____________________

Regarding QAM: Does the cable STB merely allow the use of unscrambled QAM channels based on your package or are all the QAM channels scrambled and the STB descrambles them and allows their use?

If the latter, than a QAM tuner is probably next to useless without a CableCard.

Cows get made into Campbell's soup. You have to be at least a select steer to be made into steak... :D

Am I missing something, what makes everyone think that just as everyone buys a QAM tuner they will not replace it with some other sort of encryption?

Am I missing something, what makes everyone think that just as everyone buys a QAM tuner they will not replace it with some other sort of encryption?

Yes, when all of the analog channels are taken away (as comcast promises to do by the end of 2008), if you don't buy a recorder with a DVDr, you won't be able to watch any TV without a STB rented from the cable company. With a DVDr, you TV at least is able to pick up the locals (which should always be unencrypted) without an additional rental from the cable company.

Yes, when all of the analog channels are taken away (as comcast promises to do by the end of 2008), if you don't buy a recorder with a DVDr, you won't be able to watch any TV without a STB rented from the cable company. With a DVDr, you TV at least is able to pick up the locals (which should always be unencrypted) without an additional rental from the cable company.


Travis -

Your post above is confusing and also has some misinformation, I believe. I am basing this purely on the article you orginally referenced (which has since been updated).

First - What does a DVDr have to do with anything wrt ability to receive digital signals? Did you mean QAM tuner?

Second - If I read the [updated version] of the article you linked in your OP, it is clear that Comcast intends for local channels to be available "from the coax" [which I assume to mean analog] indefintely, therefore a QAM tuner would provide no additional advantage to the average consumer. Granted, to watch anything other that local or "in the clear" channels a cable company STB would be required, but that would also be the case even if the consumer has a QAM capable digital tuner standalone, on a DVD recorder, or built into their TV. The article also talks about the digital changeover coinciding with the 2009 OTA switchover not 2008. So absolute statements like "all analog channels going away in 2008" and "won't be able to watch TV without a STB rented from the Cable Co." appear to be overly alarmist. Especially since we are talking only one, albeit major, Cable Co here.

My point is, the occasional visitor looking for advice from this forum regarding the ATSC/QAM digital tuner mandate and OTA digital switchover might get the wrong impression that he must "panic buy" a DVD recorder with a digital tuner and he will be sorely disappointed to find out the relatively few "in the clear" channels he can pick up using the QAM tuner. Frankly, based on user reports here, it will be sometime before the manufacturers get the whole ATSC/QAM tuner thing right, in DVD recorders at least, and I don't plan to rush out and buy anthing with a digital tuner (other than a TV) anytime in the near future. BTW - I'm an analog cable subscriber.

Don't confuse my comments above as being allied with the Cable Cos' position. I am not an apologist for the Cable Cos - they will try to take advantage of the average consumer's lack of technical knowledge to make a buck at every opportunity. I just believe in providing the objective (rather than alarmist) information for this subject so that forum readers can make intelligent, informed decisions regarding the CE products they buy.

The best reference on this topic that I have seen posted so far is jtbell's FAQ:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10305260&&#post10305260

There's no reason to believe the chs you would get with an antenna won't be available in clear QAM even after they shut off analog. And they already said they're only shutting off (for now) the analog chs that are not available OTA.
biker,

That's not what I'm saying.

I already know that I can get my networks with an OTA antenna. It's channels such as ESPN, Spike, Nick, Food, etc. that I'm concerned about.

I currently get these channels via analog (they call it Extended Basic here in SE PA). If/when they turn them off, I'll be watching to see if they put them on clearQAM. I know they'll put them on digital, but if they encrypt them, then I'd have to look at switching to OTA.

If I decide that I need those channels, then I'd look into Verizon, since I would need a box at every TV at that point.

ft

biker,

That's not what I'm saying.

I already know that I can get my networks with an OTA antenna. It's channels such as ESPN, Spike, Nick, Food, etc. that I'm concerned about.

I currently get these channels via analog (they call it Extended Basic here in SE PA). If/when they turn them off, I'll be watching to see if they put them on clearQAM. I know they'll put them on digital, but if they encrypt them, then I'd have to look at switching to OTA.

If I decide that I need those channels, then I'd look into Verizon, since I would need a box at every TV at that point.

ftIt is not likely that they will give you anything in clear QAM other than what they have to. By encrypting they force you to rent an STB for every device you wish to hook to their cable. IMHO this is just rubbing salt into the wound. What people have not considered yet is that the cable co's are looking to make a lot more money by tapping into a whole new market of selling you new services beyond traditional subscription viewing, i.e. movie "rentals" and video-on-demand. You need to have their 2-way STB in order to partake of these services so it is in their total interest to force you have them. If you have the STB and they dangle these services in front of you, many will succumb to temptation and run up their cable bill.

It's just like cell phones. Aside from the basic telephony function they try to get more money out of you by embedding all those extra pay-as-you-go features in the phones like text messaging, downloaded music, web access, etc. But they give you the phones for free, don't they. Think competition has something to do with it. That's what I mean by rubbing salt in the wounds.

It is not likely that they will give you anything in clear QAM other than what they have to. By encrypting they force you to rent an STB for every device you wish to hook to their cable. IMHO this is just rubbing salt into the wound. What people have not considered yet is that the cable co's are looking to make a lot more money by tapping into a whole new market of selling you new services beyond traditional subscription viewing, i.e. movie "rentals" and video-on-demand. You need to have their 2-way STB in order to partake of these services so it is in their total interest to force you have them. If you have the STB and they dangle these services in front of you, many will succumb to temptation and run up their cable bill.

It's just like cell phones. Aside from the basic telephony function they try to get more money out of you by embedding all those extra pay-as-you-go features in the phones like text messaging, downloaded music, web access, etc. But they give you the phones for free, don't they. Think competition has something to do with it. That's what I mean by rubbing salt in the wounds.I certainly won't begrduge Comcast their right to making money however they see fit. Personally, TV isn't worth $90/month, which is what it would cost to go with a digital package for me. Heck, it's barely worth the $50/month I pay now for Extended Basic.

Right now, I have a few options for TV.

1. Install an antenna and settle for just the networks.

2. Stay with Comcast and resign myself to getting a few boxes (aside - they should develop a really small digital cable box that you can mount behind a TV or under a cabinet for Kitchen and Bedroom TVs).

3. Go with Verizon FIOS for TV and Internet (they've recently installed the lines on our street).

4. Go with DBS.

Of the 4 options, only #1 does not involve STBs.

I'm thinking that cable companies can offer something that no one else can right now. They can magically keep old TVs working after the 2009 cut off (well, at least without using a STB). This is something that might be a differentiator among the competitors out there. If you can offer something that no one else can, then you can have a compelling product.

I know that I'm just thinking wishfully that the cable co's will pass the digital SD channels in the clear. Oh well.

ft

Right now, I have a few options for TV.

1. Install an antenna and settle for just the networks.

4. Go with DBS.

Of the 4 options, only #1 does not involve STBs.Like you, I also have a Sony DVR, and this is what I've done to keep the monthly costs at a minimum:

1,) Have an antenna for the digital HD and SD locals, and

2.) Have an E* package comparable to "Digital Classic" cable, with service to two TV's (using one 322 dual-tuner, which requires no access fee).

Total monthly bill: $42.00.

(P.S. No commitment, either.)

1. Install an antenna and settle for just the networks.

2. Stay with Comcast and resign myself to getting a few boxes (aside - they should develop a really small digital cable box that you can mount behind a TV or under a cabinet for Kitchen and Bedroom TVs).

3. Go with Verizon FIOS for TV and Internet (they've recently installed the lines on our street).

4. Go with DBS.

Of the 4 options, only #1 does not involve STBs.

I'm thinking that cable companies can offer something that no one else can right now. They can magically keep old TVs working after the 2009 cut off (well, at least without using a STB).

I think there's a fifth choice that may be quite popular as extended is relagated to STB only status. The basic tier - that $15/mo lifeline tier that few people now have. Yes, you could get most of that with an antenna, but for those folks that are not inclined to have such a setup (or can't cause of distance or location) this will prove to be enough. Plus, when their bill goes down from $50 to $15 they think they've come out ahead.

That magic you speak of (to keep analog TV working) can go "poof" in a second whenever the cable co thinks the # of people needing analog is small enough. By the sounds of the Comcast annoucement they may very well pull the plug on all analog quite soon.

At that point the only thing that will help is a QAM tuner.

I think there's a fifth choice that may be quite popular as extended is relagated to STB only status. The basic tier - that $15/mo lifeline tier that few people now have. Yes, you could get most of that with an antenna, but for those folks that are not inclined to have such a setup (or can't cause of distance or location) this will prove to be enough. Plus, when their bill goes down from $50 to $15 they think they've come out ahead.

That magic you speak of (to keep analog TV working) can go "poof" in a second whenever the cable co thinks the # of people needing analog is small enough. By the sounds of the Comcast annoucement they may very well pull the plug on all analog quite soon.

At that point the only thing that will help is a QAM tuner.Just to add on a bit: every analog channel uses up 6MHz of cable bandwidth. In 6MHz a cable co can digitally broadcast 4-6 SD channels or 2-3 HD channels in full quality. The math is staring everyone straight in the face. Anyone who thinks the cable co's are not going to get rid of all their analog channels as soon as their business model allows is dreaming.

Just to add on a bit: every analog channel uses up 6MHz of cable bandwidth. In 6MHz a cable co can digitally broadcast 4-6 SD channels or 2-3 HD channels in full quality. The math is staring everyone straight in the face. Anyone who thinks the cable co's are not going to get rid of all their analog channels as soon as their business model allows is dreaming.
Comcast around here has put up to 10 SD channels in a 6 MHz channel slot and up to 3 HD channels.

I only see these when I visit a relative using QAM since I have DirecTV/OTA and no QAM in my house right now.

...... What people have not considered yet is that the cable co's are looking to make a lot more money by tapping into a whole new market of selling you new services beyond traditional subscription viewing, i.e. movie "rentals" and video-on-demand. You need to have their 2-way STB in order to partake of these services so it is in their total interest to force you have them. If you have the STB and they dangle these services in front of you, many will succumb to temptation and run up their cable bill.


I agree. Cablecos are trying to introduce new products and services. But is this a bad thing? Aren't most companies? I like having the option of OnDemand. OnDemand can be free or fee based. The fee based OnDemand offers a pretty decent selection of the latest movies. Renting a movie is not necessarily a bad thing.

Let me give you an example. I don't have a high def DVD player. I'm waiting to see how things sort themselves out between the two formats. Plus right now I think the price/benefit ratio is too severe. Still too expensive in my mind. Both for the players and the cost of the movies. I guess I could buy a player and go the Netflix route. But I'd rather just rent without the need for the investment in the player.

My cableco offers HD movies OnDemand. For example I can rent Casino Royale HD for a 24 hour period for $3.95. I get the benefit of current movies offered in HD with only a variable expense (my decision) and no hardware investment. To me this is a good thing. I guess some would argue 24 hours isn't long enough but it works for me. And my guess is that the time period will be expanded in response to the new $2.99 for a week at Block Buster. But it's not so bad right now.

I personally like all of this innovation.

I personally like all of this innovation.

I am all about innovation too, but when I put in perspective, the cable companies are just awful. The worst part is that most of the time we don't have much choice. In my area there is only one company - Time Warner. So they can charge whatever they want.

It's wonderful to rent movies from your box, but $3.50 a pop? My blockbuster membership is $15 a month and I watch a lot of movies. Compared to that just one movie a day from Time Warner would increase the already insane bill they charge for the digital cable by over $100.

If they really want to be competitive they should come up with some sort of flat fee for on-demand pay-per view programs - let's say $20 a month for up to one program a day or something like that.

If money is no issue of course it doesn't matter, but there's plenty of people who can't afford $80 a month for cable + the cost of additional pay per view.

The least they can do is provide their very basic package of just local channels for free as a curtiousy to the communities.

Travis -

Your post above is confusing and also has some misinformation, I believe. I am basing this purely on the article you orginally referenced (which has since been updated).

First - What does a DVDr have to do with anything wrt ability to receive digital signals? Did you mean QAM tuner?

Second - If I read the [updated version] of the article you linked in your OP, it is clear that Comcast intends for local channels to be available "from the coax" [which I assume to mean analog] indefintely, therefore a QAM tuner would provide no additional advantage to the average consumer. Granted, to watch anything other that local or "in the clear" channels a cable company STB would be required, but that would also be the case even if the consumer has a QAM capable digital tuner standalone, on a DVD recorder, or built into their TV. The article also talks about the digital changeover coinciding with the 2009 OTA switchover not 2008. So absolute statements like "all analog channels going away in 2008" and "won't be able to watch TV without a STB rented from the Cable Co." appear to be overly alarmist. Especially since we are talking only one, albeit major, Cable Co here.

My point is, the occasional visitor looking for advice from this forum regarding the ATSC/QAM digital tuner mandate and OTA digital switchover might get the wrong impression that he must "panic buy" a DVD recorder with a digital tuner and he will be sorely disappointed to find out the relatively few "in the clear" channels he can pick up using the QAM tuner. Frankly, based on user reports here, it will be sometime before the manufacturers get the whole ATSC/QAM tuner thing right, in DVD recorders at least, and I don't plan to rush out and buy anthing with a digital tuner (other than a TV) anytime in the near future. BTW - I'm an analog cable subscriber.

Don't confuse my comments above as being allied with the Cable Cos' position. I am not an apologist for the Cable Cos - they will try to take advantage of the average consumer's lack of technical knowledge to make a buck at every opportunity. I just believe in providing the objective (rather than alarmist) information for this subject so that forum readers can make intelligent, informed decisions regarding the CE products they buy.

The best reference on this topic that I have seen posted so far is jtbell's FAQ:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10305260&&#post10305260

I just read this post. It must have slipped by me. I agree 100% x 2. Makes perfect sense. And I like the term "alarmist" being introduced. Not necessarily at the OP that was quoted in the post but more to define the general hysteria that has been apparent in this forum for at least six months now concerning QAM tuners. Are QAM tuners bad? No. But if you go back and read some of the posts from six months ago they were going to make STBs obsolete. It was amazing to read. Even now there are claims that the cableco analog shutdown will happen in 2008 and predate the OTA Feb 09 date. Amazing. Claims like you better get that QAM tuner DVD recorder now or you'll be SOL and obsolete before you even get home from the store. Amazing. Anything without a QAM tuner is a waste of money. Amazing. The info was so ill informed over the months that I decided to jump in - and I am not even and analog customer. I'm one of those that would like to see it gone tomorrow and have every channel in HD.

There appears to be a more rational understanding now about analog cable and the benefits of a QAM tuner - however so slight for the majority of users. Will analog cable go away? Yes but the time frame should be measured in years not months. Is there a need to rush out and buy a DVD recorder with a QAM tuner now? Maybe but probably not for most people. Why do you think they sell DVD recorders without tuners?

I remember posting six months ago that QAM will only get you typically what an OTA antenna will get you. Local broadcasts. Nothing more. Are there exceptions sure. I would call them isolated and as the cableco infrastructure continues to get upgraded they will go away.

But the alarmist hysteria still rears its head on a daily basis. And this does not help the "occasional visitor".

Comcast around here has put up to 10 SD channels in a 6 MHz channel slot and up to 3 HD channels.

I only see these when I visit a relative using QAM since I have DirecTV/OTA and no QAM in my house right now.My numbers were for channels that are transmitted in full quality. If the cable co adds more compression, as they do now, they can fit more. The FIOS TV FAQs I've read all state that Verizon will transmit all their digital offerings in full quality as received with out additional compression. With 3 wavelengths serving the home they have the bandwidth.

Aside: My technician is fed up with comcast and is getting the full FIOS package (phone, Internet & TV) installed on Friday. I've been waiting a while for someone in my group to get it so I would have solid feedback should I eventually decide to retire my antenna and go that route.

I agree. Cablecos are trying to introduce new products and services. But is this a bad thing? Aren't most companies? I like having the option of OnDemand. OnDemand can be free or fee based. The fee based OnDemand offers a pretty decent selection of the latest movies. Renting a movie is not necessarily a bad thing.I never said it was bad. I was pointing out an additional huge incentive for the cable co's to encrypt anything they can and force customers to obtain STB's. They will do it ASAP because the potential extra revenue stream is huge. Your examples just support my case -- you have it available to you; you decided it was a good thing; you use it and send them more money; and you are happy to do so. Mission accomplished, kill the analog and roll out those STB's pronto.

If anything my point concurs with your assertion that a QAM tuner is essentially useless.

Anything without a QAM tuner is a waste of money.

With every new report of a DVDr with a digital tuner it seems like this thread and the whole issue of a QAM tuner will be moot - within a few months you probably won't be able to get any DVDr with a tuner that doesn't have a QAM tuner. :cool:

I never said it was bad. I was pointing out an additional huge incentive for the cable co's to encrypt anything they can and force customers to obtain STB's. They will do it ASAP because the potential extra revenue stream is huge. Your examples just support my case -- you have it available to you; you decided it was a good thing; you use it and send them more money; and you are happy to do so. Mission accomplished, kill the analog and roll out those STB's pronto.

If anything my point concurs with your assertion that a QAM tuner is essentially useless.

Yes you're right. I too think there was no way that cable would open extended digital to QAM. I believe they think they lost control with analog.

If I want to watch Casino Royale in HD I have to send my money somewhere. So I guess what I'm saying is I like the fact that it can be delivered by pushing a few buttons on the remote. It is fine by me. And like I said I get new release movies in HD without having to buy a high def DVD player. If there's a better deal out there then I'll probably like that one too. Get used to it though. With broadband online content we'll probably be paying in a similar fashion. Itunes for example only with video content. Netflix is going there. Ala carte though which will be good.

Here's an interesting point on cost. And the whole HD technology thing. I just cancelled all of my premium channels. HBO, Cinemax, Showtime, etc.. All of them. I went from the most expensive digital package to the most reasonable. It is like $50 per month now. Why? Because of the 16x9 HD form factor. Most of the premium movie channels (something like 40+) are SD 4x3. There are two premium HD channels - HBO and Showtime. Big deal it wasn't worth it. I found myself not watching the SD premiums and never recording them. I hate pillar bars and there is nothing worse in my opinion than zooming a move that has already been pan and scanned. I found this out the hard way by getting spoiled by full 16x9 recordings. I did add the HD package ($6.95) which gives me HD movies in 16x9 which I do record and archive (full widesreen 16x9). Along with Discovery HD etc. The extended basic HD channels.

So technology doesn't always work in the cableco's favor. The cheapest digital package that I have offers a lot. And whether it's the cheapest or the most expensive digital package has no effect on HD material. I get all the OnDemand, music channels, etc. I think they claim 200+ channels. It's not a bad deal. And as I've posted before I use a cheap ($50) wireless A/V setup to support secondary televisions in the house for the digital stuff - access to the DVR from a secondary television for example. No extra set-tops for secondary televisions. Although in my area I get the analog channels below 99 with coax out of the wall as well.

I'm sure Comcast is always looking for ways to get more money. About a year or so ago, they moved the SciFi channel from analog to digital. So now I had to subscribe to a digital package and get a STB in order to watch the same programs I used to watch. There were quite a few postings about this on another forum. Essentially the cable company was squeezing another $10/month out of a lot of customers for the same content. The entry level digital package is now $11.99/month. I dropped it & turned in the STB a few weeks ago.

Yes you're right. I too think there was no way that cable would open extended digital to QAM. I believe they think they lost control with analog.

If I want to watch Casino Royale in HD I have to send my money somewhere. So I guess what I'm saying is I like the fact that it can be delivered by pushing a few buttons on the remote. It is fine by me. And like I said I get new release movies in HD without having to buy a high def DVD player. If there's a better deal out there then I'll probably like that one too. Get used to it though. With broadband online content we'll probably be paying in a similar fashion. Itunes for example only with video content. Netflix is going there. Ala carte though which will be good.

Here's an interesting point on cost. And the whole HD technology thing. I just cancelled all of my premium channels. HBO, Cinemax, Showtime, etc.. All of them. I went from the most expensive digital package to the most reasonable. It is like $50 per month now. Why? Because of the 16x9 HD form factor. Most of the premium movie channels (something like 40+) are SD 4x3. There are two premium HD channels - HBO and Showtime. Big deal it wasn't worth it. I found myself not watching the SD premiums and never recording them. I hate pillar bars and there is nothing worse in my opinion than zooming a move that has already been pan and scanned. I found this out the hard way by getting spoiled by full 16x9 recordings. I did add the HD package ($6.95) which gives me HD movies in 16x9 which I do record and archive (full widesreen 16x9). Along with Discovery HD etc. The extended basic HD channels.

So technology doesn't always work in the cableco's favor. The cheapest digital package that I have offers a lot. And whether it's the cheapest or the most expensive digital package has no effect on HD material. I get all the OnDemand, music channels, etc. I think they claim 200+ channels. It's not a bad deal. And as I've posted before I use a cheap ($50) wireless A/V setup to support secondary televisions in the house for the digital stuff - access to the DVR from a secondary television for example. No extra set-tops for secondary televisions. Although in my area I get the analog channels below 99 with coax out of the wall as well.

Yeah, the whole HD thing is an issue with cable companies. My cable system has very few HD channels, and only one per movie channel family. The HD On-Demand content is also limited, although it is slowly increasing.

I'm sure Comcast is always looking for ways to get more money. About a year or so ago, they moved the SciFi channel from analog to digital. So now I had to subscribe to a digital package and get a STB in order to watch the same programs I used to watch. There were quite a few postings about this on another forum. Essentially the cable company was squeezing another $10/month out of a lot of customers for the same content. The entry level digital package is now $11.99/month. I dropped it & turned in the STB a few weeks ago.You can get Sci-Fi from Dish with an SD package price as low as $29.99 ($5.00 more for locals, another $5.00 for your RSN, both optional).

I think some of the related issues do not necessarily go hand in hand:
1) Cable companies want to switch off analog because they can reclaim the bandwidth for more digital channels and particularly HD channels so they can combat the "100 HD channels by the end of 2007" non-stop advertisments from DirecTV. Presumably they can also use it to offer more pay-for-play services.

2) The decision whether to encrypt the digital versions of the analog channels (standard cable package) is independent of #1. Cable companies could offer those in the clear to appease the cable users who will already be annoyed that their analog tuners wont work on their cable system and start looking at alternatives. They could also encrypt everything right away, and require cable cards or additional STBs for each TV. But it's an independent decision.

And to complicate things, neither #1 or #2 is all or nothing. Cable companies could do this in stages, for example they could take down "expanded cable" first, then "basic cable". Perhaps the network channels and the mandated channels will remain on analog further along. While all this is interconnected, it doesn't necessarily mean that everything will happen at once or that every cable provider will do the same thing.

As far as SciFi and Comcast, was this only in Chicago or did they do it in other markets?