I could use some help here folks.

I'm really on the fence on which way to go with my upgrade. I'm going to a CIH setup and am about ready to pull the trigger with Jason here at AVS. My current projector is an Infocus 7200 and I am stuck trying to decide whether to go with the RS1 or a DLP 1080p projector. My only previous viewing of LCoS has been a Ruby at my local AV dealer and a Pearl at Magnolia(BB). To put it mildly I was underwhelmed by both. In my opinion the Runco (410?) running in the room next to the Ruby blew it away.

I know I've posted questions like this in specific threads but I thought I'd try a new one of it's own.

Who here has gone from DLP to the RS1 and what can you tell me about the picture comparisons between the two styles?

I am a big fan of the DLP picture. Rainbows have not been a substantial issue with me over the years so that's not a reason to switch styles to me. I am concerned with the soft, flat picture I have seen with the Ruby and do not want to lose the punch of the DLP. Frankly, I'n not sure if I necessarily want the "filmlike" picture. Heck, I believe that filmmakers would probably want the bright, sharp punch of the DLP look in many cases but that's not a reality in the movie theaters across the country. All the HD81 problems aside, after taking into account the VP that would have to be purchased with the RS1 and the new lowered price of the Optoma unit I am looking at nearly a $3000 savings by going with the HD81. Is the RS1 giving a $3k better experience? Not that the JVC is out of the budget but it's pushing it. Then I start feeling I will go with the Sharp or BenQ 1080p and at that point I'm in the price range of the JVC and back to the question of the difference in picture style.

All opinion and discussion is GREATLY appreciated!

Randy

The Optima is $3000 cheaper than the RS1? :confused:

I think he was counting in his RS1 purchase the purchase of an external vp...

The Optima is $3000 cheaper than the RS1? :confused:

He is talking RS1+scaler so he can do CIH at which point it would/could be $3000 cheaper.

Edit: Mark beat me to it :)

I think he was counting in his RS1 purchase the purchase of an external vp...


Correct. With the new lower price and rebate of the HD81 along with purchasing a fairly basic VP to do the processing for a CIH setup for an RS1 then I am looking at about $3k more. I've got to take that kind of difference into consideration.

Randy

Randy -

How about writing to JVC to ask them if they are planning to release a firmware update that would enable the CIH scaling capabilities of the Gennum chip within the RS1. You could explain to them how competitive products like the Optoma H81 enable this feature and how this greatly affects the economics of your purchase decision.

Brent

Great topic and thanks for posting as I had been wondering the same. I like the "pop" that DLP's offer and I have yet to hear anyone describe the RS1 as having that trait. Hopefully someone that has taken the plunge will chime in.

Great topic and thanks for posting as I had been wondering the same. I like the "pop" that DLP's offer and I have yet to hear anyone describe the RS1 as having that trait. Hopefully someone that has taken the plunge will chime in.

I've said a dozen or so times. I recommend seeing the projector

[/QUOTE]I've said a dozen or so times. I recommend seeing the projector[QUOTE]

I wouldn't like anything more. I posted a thread a couple days ago on where to see the RS1 in the Washington DC area and got no responses. Seeing it will most likely not be an option, though I am trying. As it has been pointed out all these units are going to buyers, not into demo rooms.

I'd like to see the HD81 and the BenQ 10000 too. I think I may be able to get a look at the Sharp.

doesn't the H81, like the H79/78 before it, have reliability issues?
I would check the H81 thread to take a count of just how many users are having issues with theirs, and what they say about the service response.

even though it seems that a VP might be indispensible with the RS1, it is still a cost that can be postponed for a little while. You can easily do a poor mans CH by just going with the lens shift and zoom...at least for several hunderd hours while your bulb is at peak brightness. Hell, that's the way I've been doing it in my set-up for 6 years now. I've had lenses in the mix but actually disliked the added hassle for apparently little or no gain (to my eyes. YMMV)

one other point- I wouldn't go by a Pearl demo in Magnolia. They are stuck demoing the pj with the Stewart SST screen, which imo, sucks most of the life out of the image. Don't know what the Ruby was on, but even though these two are probably a bit flatter and more 'film-like' I'm pretty confident the Pearl would look much more vibrant and dynamic on something like a Carada Brilliant White or Da-Lite High Power compared to the SST.

I just saw the JVC at magnolia in seattle. I was a fence sitter going back and forth between sticking with my HD1000 (which is a great projector for the price). I've seen a lot of 10K and up projectors but none seemed to put up a vastly superior picture than mine.

One look at the HD1 in magnolia made me think my projector sucked though. It was the first "high end" projector that i've seen that was a dramatic improvement over mine. I will be calling AVS very soon to order the HD1. the contrast is amazing.

interestingly though, i went to another magnolia and it didn't look that great.

we carry the RS1. This is the professional version with black case.

No question that the HD81 has had some serious reliability issues. That is the true reason why it is now so much cheaper to get what many feel is a favorably comparable projector. If it wasn't for the reliability issues I would have frankly already made the purchase, knowing that the RS1 may be a touch better here or there but I saved $3k.

I've tried the zoom method of CIH, albeit with my 720p Infocus and not a 1080p machine, and have not been satisfied with it. The VP is less than half of the cost difference in the set up.

It's GREAT that the HD1 (RS1 twin) is showing up at Magnolias. Now, I know viewing and testing equipment in what amounts to the fancy part of Best Buy out here in the D.C. area is not a good idea, at least it is an option. The Pearl demo I saw at Magnolia's is not the reason for my hesitation with the RS1's image. It is the lack of seeing it and the also the Ruby I spent a few hours with at my local AV specialty shop. It was not on a Firehawk. It was a white screen, around 1.3 gain, I think possibly Vutec but possibly Stewart. The projector was not what I was looking for in a picture, it was flat and lifeless and back to that highly technical term...it lacked the punch of the DLP.

Which brings us full circle to the original question. I'd like to see all the comments I can get from people who have gone from DLP to the RS1 and what they can say about the difference in the picture.

Thank you Husky for that post. It's exactly the kind of thing I need to hear. Tryg, boy I'd be right over to take a look at that projector if only you had a little D.C. after your location!!

Randy

Chill,

I just upgraded from a 7200 to the RS1 and here my thoughts:

1. I was not that unhappy with the 7200. I do agree that in certain types of scenes, that it had a lot of "punch". However, I thought that I could do a lot better in dark scenes. I felt that the image was kind of muddy in those situations. It had reached the point that I was not enjoying dark movies as much as I thought I could.

2. My RS1 is driven by a new DVD player - the Toshiba XA2. I would not worry about the image being flat - I find that it gives up nothing in that category to the 7200. Many people have described the RS1 image as smooth and film like. It seems that some people interpret this to mean soft and or/flat. Be careful not to draw the same conclusion. With that said, I did run an experiment the other day. I connected my old Toshiba 3109 to the RS1. I wanted to compare the noise in the image compared to the XA2. I used the Matrix as the test case. I did find that the 3109 resulted in a noticeably flatter image than the XA2. I am not sure whether I would call it flat, but it sure was flatter.

3. There is no comparison in performance in dark scenes - RS1 wins hands down. This one is a big deal for me. I now look forward to the dark stuff.

4. The biggest change for me is the lack of noise in the image. With the 7200, I would often see a lot of video noise in solid blocks of color. Dark concert scenes were a big offender. Many times in poorly lit scenes, I would see a lot of noise in the dark background behind the performers, or on the flat surface of a piano. This was not just a problem in music content. Part of the reason for the Matrix experiment was that I found that film to be very noisy. The XA2 and RS1 do an amazing job of cleaning up this noise. Watching movies has become way more satisfying and less distracting for me as a result. I no longer feel like I am watching an artifact-filled digital device. Smooth and film like, while maintaining sharpness (I know this can be hard to appreciate until you see the system in action), really does describe the viewing experience. With all the talk of black levels, and contrast ratios I was not prepared for the improvement in performance that comes with this aspect of the system. It is the single biggest reason why I would never go back.

Kerry,

Thanks for your remarks. I am a current Infocus 7200 owner and am on the RS-1 list (expecting to be in the 3rd wave). My feelings about the 7200 are identical to yours.

What type of screen are you using. I am currently using a 123 in diagonal Stewart firehawk.

John

John - 110" Da-Lite High Contrast Cinema Vision - same screen as I was using with the 7200.

[QUOTE=chiliman]I've tried the zoom method of CIH, albeit with my 720p Infocus and not a 1080p machine, and have not been satisfied with it. The VP is less than half of the cost difference in the set up.
I can tell you that I am getting phenomenal results with the RS1 using the zoom method from only 1SW viewing distance. Incredible sharpness and smoothness. If you decide on the RS1 I highly recommend trying it out first with the zoom method before buying the lens/processor. The only real problem I'm seeing is that the manual focus would be difficult to get perfect every time from a long throw position(it really makes a difference having it dialed in). I'm using minimum throw which not only makes it easier to focus, but it more than makes up for the brightness gain using a lens.

Great topic and thanks for posting as I had been wondering the same. I like the "pop" that DLP's offer and I have yet to hear anyone describe the RS1 as having that trait. Hopefully someone that has taken the plunge will chime in.

Lots of people have commented on the "pop" but here is just one recent set of observations from units a couple days ago. 9th paragraph down he tallks about it.

units
Semi-Retired Lurker

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Funkytown
Posts: 193
Ok...my two cents:

"First, my setup...Vutec Silverstar 123" (more like 120.5") screen, RS1 shelf mounted 23 feet from screen with no use of lense shift in either direction, total light control, very dark brown walls, black velvet on entire screen wall and approximately four feet out on white ceiling. RS1 has been put through basic Avia adjustments (nearly bang on already), and is being used in the typical "middle" and "natural". Pixel shift needed only one pixel shift of vertical red to the left, leaving what appears to be half a pixel of red on the outside on the far left of the screen, with the remainder of the screen right on.

I've been watching the RS1 for the last day on every piece of material I can think of, and my observations are as follows:

Bright corners: even on the SS, this simply is not an issue with my unit...no bright corners appear during any type of material, and even on total fade to blacks, after probably twenty seconds, the lower left corner may be ever so slightly brighter...like I said, no issue here.

Over saturation: IMO, this issue has been over stated to an incredible extent. This pj definately has over-saturated colors. That being said, I find the colors to be very pleasing at default for the vast majority of material. When I have come upon material that has too much saturation, I simply knock the color back a few notches, and all is right with the world. Do I know, in my heart of hearts, that the color may not be "perfect"...yes. Does this harm my enjoyment of the RS1 in any way whatsoever...no way.

This projector definately is ruthlessly revealing of any flaw in a given source, but given strong material, the picture is amazing.

Now two things that really surprised me....

This thing puts out some serious light, even in it's "best" mode on low lamp. Even coming from a Panny AX100, a supposed light cannon, I was shocked how much light the JVC throws out...believe I'm going to need to pick up a good N/D filter.

Now the big one...POP. The image this thing throws is just insanely deep and 3D like. Every thing I throw at this machine just jumps off the screen. I mean, seriously, BOOM! I can't believe more haven't gone on about the depth of the image on this projector. Sure, it's been mentioned in the reviews and here and there on the forum, but my jaw is still on the floor. The best way I can describe it is to say the overall look strikes me as a smoother (in a good way) DLP with no rainbows...awsome.

I really don't have any nits to pick right now. In time, perhaps I will, but right now, I'm still floored every time I look at the thing.

For you guys getting scared back onto the fence by the poo pooing in the forums, all I'll say is try not to worry and just wait till you see it for yourself. The points being raised are valid points, but you owe it yourself to see this machine and see what it does for you. I've lived with a Panny AX100 for a while now, but I'm no stranger to the showrooms of the high end equipment dealers around here, and I've spent plenty of time with all of the recent standouts, and I've gotta tell you, knowing what I paid for this JVC, I feel like I won the lottery...YMMV.

This may sound like a puff piece...so be it. I love this thing."

Again, thanks for the input. The more the better.

RonF: I'd read that piece before. It was certainly one of the factors that made the extra cash for the JVC setup worth serious consideration.

5Mark: You're suggestion makes sense. Get the unit in and the screen in before spending the $3k on the VP and lens. Maybe that's the way to go if I decide on the RS1

Kthacher: Great information! I can't disagree at all. I will admit I was still thrilled with my 7200 right up until I started reading all these reviews and seriously considering the upgrade. Your post really helps.

Here's another more specific question. Once or twice I've come across posts suggesting that the RS1 does not do as well a job at SD DVD's and with SD DVD Players as say an HD81 or other DLP 1080p unit. Any specific thoughts to that? Certainly the large library of SD DVD's I have make that important. From Kthacher's comments it sounds as if SD DVD's played from an HD DVD player look better than with a SD DVD player. So what...now my never ending upgrade bug includes replacing my Denon 3910?!

Randy

Randy

I got the impression that Mark Haflich had some customers that were getting JVC units. You might try and get in touch with him to see if any them would consider demoing their new unit. Mark had a Pearl (with around 800 hrs on the bulb) at his shop (Kensington) in Jan. that I thought looked very nice.

George

So what...now my never ending upgrade bug includes replacing my Denon 3910?!

Randy

I wouldn't worry about it. If you get the RS-1 you'll be getting an HD DVD player anyway. It's REQUIRED. :) Seriously... nothing looks better than HD DVD on this pj and if you don't upgrade to an HD DVD player, you'll be missing the full capabilities of this pj! So, just let the player do the upscaling. As you note, the Tosh's do great at this.

Greg Rogers reviewed the Optoma H81 in a recent Widescreen Review and it was far from glowing, especially in regard to contrast. Check it out before you go that way. I also have an interesting tale of "7" major failures with my Optoma H79 that might scare you.

I'd love to see the RS1, but have yet to get the chance. I can say for sure that my new Sharp 20000 1080p DLP has a boatload more "pop" than a new Pearl I just saw and I'm extremely happy with it. If anyone knows of an RS1 in the St. Louis area, I'd like to check it out. :)

Well, the decision surely isn't getting any easier.

I've come to the conclusions that JVC is undoubtedly a notch or two above the Optoma. Right now I am figuring out for myself if the extra cash is worth it. If the Optoma had not gone down so much the decision would be easy. Or if JVC hadn't left out the aspect control to do CIH. The fact that I have to buy a outboard video processor and a fairly basic one to stay within budget is killing me. Is buying a basic Lumagen unit actually spending money to downgrade the processing of what is internally available?!?! (both for JVC and Optoma)

Right now my decision is to buy the outboard processor along with the JVC at it's peak price (knowing it will go down to some degree at some point) or buy the Optoma at a price that is simply CHEAP...knowing that I can dump the Optoma in 6-10 months for $2k and if JVC has installed the aspect controls along with the given price decreases, and even accounting for the loss on the Optoma get into it for about what I'd pay today without an outboard VP.

I don't mind spending the money....I hate wasting it just to get the aspect control.

Thanks
Randy

Getting 2K for the Optoma in 6-10 months may be Optomastic (I couldn't resist). I just sold mine for $3000 and it had 40 hours on it! Prices on the 81 are falling like snow. In 6-10 months I heard they may be close to unveiling their next replacement for the 81 and from what I heard it will finally have lens shift. However, the obvious catch with that unit will be of course the wait of say a year and half or two.

Actually I don't know if they'll unveil in 6-10 months or not. They may make an announcement at CEDIA this year. I do know that I read on the Optoma forum that a lens shift model was in the works for the near to slightly distant future.

John - 110" Da-Lite High Contrast Cinema Vision - same screen as I was using with the 7200.


Thanks for your observations Kerry. At the moment, I've got the Infocus 7210, Toshiba XA2, and 100" diagonal Dalite HCCV, so our set-ups are (were) pretty similar. Tell me that you've got a bit of ambient light to deal with, and I'm sold ! :D

I do wonder how much less improvement you'd have seen on dark material had your starting point been the 7210 (with the DC3) versus the 7200; but I suspect that almost all of that improvement is attributable to the RS1.

I'm glad to hear that you still have the HCCV, and that it seems to work well with the RS1, because I'd like to keep mine if I can. Although it doesn't reject ambient light as well as the Firehawk, I really like how it holds up for off-angle viewing.

Does the RS1 seem as bright as the 7200?

Will

Getting 2K for the Optoma in 6-10 months may be Optomastic (I couldn't resist). I just sold mine for $3000 .

No Doubt!

Hopefully it's a non-issue but I figured it would be pretty hard for this unit to fall below 720p units in that time frame. I'm hoping it's easier to lose more than 50% of your value when starting from $6500 than starting from $4000.

Will,

What impact did your XA2 have on the 7210 image? I can't make you totally happy I guess - I have a totally light controlled room. The impact of the image going entirely black is almost startling when it first happens. My RS1 is comparable in brightness to the 7200 - keep in mind that my bulb had 1400 hours on it when I switched projectors. Even with that, I don't think there is much of a difference - the RS1 is plenty bright for me.

Kerry,

I haven't really watched much with the XA2 yet. I picked up a couple of HD titles this weekend so hopefully I'll cue one up in the next few days. The XA2 (firmware version 1.3) is set for "Up to 720p" and is connected via HDMI. Regular DVDs don't seem to look appreciably better than they did on the EAD TheaterVision P at 480p. I'm using HDMI out from the player; an adapter connects to a DVI cable that runs to the projector, and at the projector the DVI cable plugs into a DVI to M1 adapter required by Infocus projectors. I'm wondering if all these adapters are causing the XA2 to output at 480p rather than 720p. I haven't tried component yet, nor outputting at 1080i.

Did you get try the XA2 with your 7200? What was your experience?

Will

Will,

Any reason that you aren't pumping a higher resolution signal into your PJ (1080i/p)?

I'm sure that it would knock your socks off with greater than 1 MP.

My 7210 is a native 720p projector, so I expected that 720p output would be the best choice. I'll give 1080i a try though.

Will,

I went for the big bang upgrade experience - XA2 and RS1 at the same time, so I have not seen the impact of the XA2 on the 7200. I really doubt that all of the adapters will cause the XA2 to switch to 480P. Also, I think there is an info screen somewhere on your projector that tells you what signal it is getting.

My 7210 is a native 720p projector, so I expected that 720p output would be the best choice. I'll give 1080i a try though.

I believe HD DVD players respond better outputting 1080i rather than 720p but that may not apply to the XA2. It is always a good thing to experiment (especially with no permanent negative consequences). Cheers!

Apparently the first generation players didn't do to well with 720p (from what I've read); the XA2 is supposed to have improved on that. But as you said, I'll give both a try.

Kerry, I think that you're right about an info screen or at least a box that flashes the resolution for a moment when a source is first selected.