At this time I am still leaning towards HDDVD instead of Blu-ray but I have heard some opinions suggesting that this may not be the format that will win out in the end.
A sales person at a higher end shop said that he was at the big show in the states where vurtually all of the displays that were being shown off were fed by blu-ray except for the ones where HDDVD themselves were being promoted. He came away from the show firmly believing that Blu-ray is dominant and will take over. Does this mean that the major display manufacturers are leaning towards Blu-ray? What do you all think?

I was a little surprised to see an article on Yahoo Friday that suggested the adult film industry will make the deciding vote, and cited their influence in the VHS vs. Betamax wars:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070406/tc_nm/column_pluggedin_dc_4

Mark

I was a little surprised to see an article on Yahoo Friday that suggested the adult film industry will make the deciding vote, and cited their influence in the VHS vs. Betamax wars:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070406/tc_nm/column_pluggedin_dc_4

Mark


Yeah, I heard this a few months back as well. I would not be a bit surprised if this is the case.

larrykelly, the reason that sales guy probably saw a lot of Blu-Ray equipment playing is because the display manufacturers were probably playing animated features. Everyone knows that animation looks good on most anything and who do you think sides with the BluRay camp? Disney just to name one very big one and a studio with a large catalog of animated features. I personally think HD DVD will win out in the end IF there has to be just one format. However, I am a big Disney fan so I would probably support both formats just to be able to play all of my favorite movies. Currently I have only tried HD DVD and have been very happy with it. Part of the reason for that is that it was soooo much cheaper to get into (ie. Xbox add on).

I think you should just buy one or the other and start ENJOYING HD movies now.

Sitting on the fence, waiting for the "winner" is just wasting time.

It's not like one will be declared "THE WINNER" and DVD's for the other will stop being available overnight.

My 2 cents

You could get a Toshiba HD A2 for $306 on Amazon - and Toshiba will give you 5 free HDDVD movies with it. So if you sell the movies - a player itself would cost you less than $200. Not bad at all

Both will be around for a few years yet

If you're looking to get, or want the capabilities for, 1080p, don't get the A2....it tops out at 1080 interlaced. This is probably an irrelevant mention as most reviewers comparing the two noticed barely perceptible differences; if any at all.

Other notables, the A2 has HDMI spec v1.2 and shares the same false contouring downfall as the A1.
False Contouring
An artifact common to fixed-pixel displays that produces splotchy, distinct sections in what should be gradual gradations of color or shadows. Also referred to as solarization and posterization

On the plus side, the remote has been redesigned (compared to the A1) and is more logically laid out and less retro bulky "clicker" feeling. :D

The price, even accounting for "maybe" selling off, or 'assigning value' to the 5 "free" movies still wouldn't be enough to convince me to make the purchase. Not for an early entrant in the version history anyway. Now when the price of the XA2 price drops to <$500, I'll be all over it.
Til then, I'll muddle along with my barebones XB360 add-on. Personally, price will be the deciding factor of what side of the HD fence my money lands on.

Greg

I would bet anything HD-DVD will win if there ever is a looser, but there are just no guarantees.

Since HD-DVD is cheaper to get into I'd start there if I were you.

I agree that blueray animated disney titles are used more often to demo stuff, but that shouldn't lead anyone to believe hd-dvd will go away.

It is possible we could just continue to have both as players are coming out which will read both, and there may never be a winner or looser except in the pc world I put my money on hd-dvd recordables being cheaper and therefore dominating that market. (due to licensing fees which I believe are lower on hd-dvd technology than blueray.)

Correct me if I'm wrong on the licensing fees, that's just what I heard in conversation.

Troy

If you're not going format neutral...do a search on the movies available and go with the format that has the movies you want to watch.

I've seen so many flip flop arguments that I have no idea. From what I know:

-Sony (BR) is the biggest film studio conglomerate
-Porn is going HD DVD, but with the advent of the net, porn isn't selling as much video as it used to, so it's not nearly as big a factor as when the VHS/Beta war was on.
-HD DVD was there first.
-BR is more expensive

I think both formats can still win or lose. I thought DVHS was a winner, but it never caught on, and died pretty quickly, didn't it?

I think both formats can still win or lose. I thought DVHS was a winner, but it never caught on, and died pretty quickly, didn't it?

D-VHS was before its time and expensive. Not many people had firewire ports or knew what to do with them so it pretty much died.

If you mean DTheater, then it never got much backing from the studios and only JVC ever made decks that could do it. Secondly, HD DVD players hit the street out of the gate costing less than 1/2 of a DTheater deck! Also, there was never any porn on it. :p

My machines get plenty of use and until there is something that can replace it, it will be chugging along.

Dave

Go out and buy a PS3 - gets you BD playback, plus you have a next gen gaming machine to boot. OR if you already are in the XBox 360 camp, just buy the HD-DVD add-on. No real sense in dropping serious money on anything just yet. Right now we are in the nasty, early-adaptor part of the bell curve. Sort of like the guys who had to have the cool Intel 386 boxes way back when - and payed over $4k for the privilege.

So enjoy the BD on PS3 right now; later this summer, if you still want HD-DVD, just grab one of the cheap import boxes they are promoting for later this year - the ones they are promising at 2 bills.

Once the dust settles, then you can go out and buy a premium machine for the winning format. (and while Troy has me beat 8 ways to Sunday on this kind of knowledge, I'd still be betting on BD winning, if Vegas had a line on it. :))

I have multiple players in both formats, and love it. Frankly, there are too many movies on both sides for me to bear missing them.

I have multiple players in both formats, and love it. Frankly, there are too many movies on both sides for me to bear missing them.


Absolutely!

I now have 2 of each formats. One set for the theater, and one for the living room. As emerging formats go, they have been quite reasonably priced, and I credit the format war for that...

I am in the same camp as madpoet with a player for both formats. The Toshiba HD players are a little over $200 on the used market and the Samsung Blu Rays can be gotten for less than $400 with all the players coming down in price. I have them with the latest firmware and they have been trouble free.
It does give the feedom of choosing any of the HD movies offered and given the image quality to me are well worth the $.
With the AVS classified you can get titles at great prices or buy new and sell after viewing (unless it's a keeper) and with the little $ lost it is almost the cost of a rental.

Screw them both I say!

I'll buy BR/HDDVD when the DVD drive I'm getting for my computer has it for less than $10 extra compared to a normal DVD without it.

Buying a hardware player for several hundred dollars that is sure to be crippled (unskippable ads, DRM) with next to no content available and the chance of becoming obsolete within a few years, is just not my idea of a sound investment.

My guess is that the MPAA will willingly go to online no-DRM based distribution long before the BR vs. HDDVD issue is settled.

If you're looking to get, or want the capabilities for, 1080p, don't get the A2....it tops out at 1080 interlaced. This is probably an irrelevant mention as most reviewers comparing the two noticed barely perceptible differences; if any at all.


If one is concerned about getting 1080p output (the implication being that they have a 9" CRT projector or high-end 8" projector perhaps running something slightly lower than 1080p) then wouldn't one likely already have a scaler that can take 1080i to 1080p? I have a Toshiba HD-A1 paired with a Lumagen VisionHDP and it's a beautiful combination. I guess my point is that money is better spent on a nice scaler than on 1080p output capability on a HD player. You get much more flexibility -- custom resolutions, custom refresh rates, ability to scale and switch multiple video sources, more ability to tweak the picture, etc.

True... but if you also want an outstanding upscaling player, then get the XA2 and have the best of both worlds :)

A 1080p player is a LOT cheaper than a 1080i player and a good scaler.

A 1080p player is a LOT cheaper than a 1080i player and a good scaler.

Yes, but a 1080p player without a scaler is stuck at 60 Hz. :(

Dave

If one is concerned about getting 1080p output (the implication being that they have a 9" CRT projector or high-end 8" projector perhaps running something slightly lower than 1080p) then wouldn't one likely already have a scaler that can take 1080i to 1080p? I have a Toshiba HD-A1 paired with a Lumagen VisionHDP and it's a beautiful combination. I guess my point is that money is better spent on a nice scaler than on 1080p output capability on a HD player. You get much more flexibility -- custom resolutions, custom refresh rates, ability to scale and switch multiple video sources, more ability to tweak the picture, etc.

Yes, but for a different reason. It is a seriously sucky situation trying to get high resolution into RGBHV without a decent scaler. I am thinking of going the scaler route just because all my stopgap measures don't measure up.
(Still cannot get 1080p using an DVI to VGA converter).

Chris.

Hands down HDDVD players show off high def's true potential. If you are a true videophile and are looking for the best picture than HDDVD is what you want. Just ask the consumers who returned their Blue ray players to the store.

Yes, but for a different reason. It is a seriously sucky situation trying to get high resolution into RGBHV without a decent scaler. I am thinking of going the scaler route just because all my stopgap measures don't measure up.
(Still cannot get 1080p using an DVI to VGA converter).

Chris.

The Lumagen VisionHDP I bought gently used put a ~$1050 hole in my pocket (about twice what I paid for my 1292Q) but it is one nice scaler for the money. HD DVDs playng at 1080p @ 48Hz are eye-candy!

1080p goodness and I only spent 6.4% of my annual income to get it! :)

Ya know, come to think of it, I don't watch too many movies or TV. Man, I think I'm going to be sick! :D

Definately, BlueRay hands down winner. But there will allways be HD-DVD's around. I would recommend getting a $300 BlueRay player when it comes out or a combo player to play both formats. If you go with HD-DVD you will never be able to watch many many movies that are BlueRay only which make up the majority of high def movies out there. Lord of the Rings Extended version! Enough said :)

Um... LoTR will be HD-DVD. Your fanboy nonsense is best contained in the BD forum, thanks.

I agree with Alan....you can buy a hd-dvd and blu-ray player from 6 -7 hundred dollars and rent until your heart's content.

. . . . I would recommend getting a $300 BlueRay player when it comes out . . .
I suspect that will be a very long wait. In the meantime, he will not be able to watch ANY HD DVD content in either format.

First generation HD-DVD players are now selling for $200-$250 - why wait when you can have it now. Then, if and when the mythical $300 BD player comes out, buy one and enjoy both.

And yes, LOTR will be HD-DVD, not BlueRay.

Um... LoTR will be HD-DVD.

You've got that from the Amazon pre-order page, or do you know something more? Like a date... ;) I know that when it happens, I'm gonna buy that XBox 360 HD-DVD player and build a new HTPC around it, providing there's a way to play it on my Barco. You have seen these shots (http://www.cornbread.org/FOTRCompare/index.html) before, right?

Yeah, I've seen those before... got HD versions of all of them but the FoTR EE now :)

Also, there was never any porn on it.

You were looking in the wrong place.

Yeah, I've seen those before... got HD versions of all of them but the FoTR EE now :)
Now you know that I have always considered you the most intelligent, valuable and handsom member of the AVS-Forum, right? Oh, and sensitive of course. Not to mention very sharing... :p

Oh, and totally unrelated, do you have a PayPal account? They are very handy and can be used for a lot of other things than eBay auctions. :cool:

Has anyone tried the Xbox add on HD drive on their HTPC yet .

My $200 plan

Buy Xbox drive $200
xbox driver (which exists)
Ripping software to strip off HDCP (have non compliant Video card and display)
2 terabytes of disc space
Powerdvd ultra
Unlimited hire for $30 a month subsciption to hire HDDVD's by mail

Will it run ok On my lowly HTPC though @ 1080p 48 or 50 HZ to 1292
AMD2500+
1 gig Ram
Geforce 6600GT

The WMV 1080p stuff struggles but I believe this is Mpeg4 thus processor reliant

Stan, your plan is the same as mine man.

But I fear that your PC is too slow. I just upgraded to a dual core opteron, and when I had a loaner x1950 video card it played King Kong HD-DVD easily. With the next gen video cards the hardware accel offloads most of the processing - you might get away with it...maybe..

It doesn't work with a 6800GT, PDVD just crashes. But Dokworm had it working with a 6600GT, don't ask me what the difference is.

If you are using analogue out you shouldn't need to rip them first.

I almost bought a drive on the weekend, but the only one I could find was A$250 at Tricky Dicky's - I heard they are A$200 at BigW - but they were out of stock.

But as I need a new video card first, I can wait. And I'm waiting for the next gen ATi card.

The 6800 doesn't have the hardware acceleration features that the 6600 does. It's broken.

Well, I don't need hardware accel, but it must be something to do with the broken video processing on the 6800GT, yes.

Mark, I know you need the ATI because you can't use renderless exclusive. But have you compared A-B the video quality on the ATI you borrowed and any GeForce card? To me the image quality is everything, hassle is something I can get around...normally.

I guess the only really safe thing to do is to set up a dual boot on the next HTPC, one system partition with an ATI card and one with a GeForce. Then I'll order my projector man for a full day and let him set them both up. Finally we can go a bit of testing. Or, if the difference in image quality isn't big (CPU doesn't mater, my HTPCs always has enough grunt to do what I need them to do without "crutches" in the graphics card) I can set up my next HTPC with an ATI card and do an A-B with my old HTPC with the 6600GT.

sweetchuck, I'm pretty sure Mark's right. That computer is way too slow. I have been through three HTPC's since I had something similar (an AMD 2600+). That is, if it's the Athlon 2500 you're using, and not a newer dual core thing from AMD. Haven't really been following AMD lately since I found the stability I needed and wanted with Pentiums.

Tor, I couldn't A-B the quality of the ATi to the 6800GT (on VMR9) straight away - I had to uninstall and install cards. So a good hour between cards at least.

But I was happy with the quality of the ATi on any VMR9, and the 6800GT on VMR9 exclusive. Once I got the black levels right, they both looked good.

Both were running DVI to HDMI in my video switcher. If you are going to use Analogue out, then I can't say which would be best. In my experience DVI to VGA dongles can ruin the image, much more so than the card. Part of the reason I got the HDMI input card was to avoid having to BNC mod any more expensive video cards..

Overlay looks crap on the Nvidia card. I'm living with it now, and it's not good. (And a PITA to calibrate with another black level variable to play with).

Buying a hardware player for several hundred dollars that is sure to be crippled (unskippable ads, DRM) with next to no content available and the chance of becoming obsolete within a few years, is just not my idea of a sound investment.I can't even keep up with all the HD content, given what I get from these formats along with other things I watch. Each format is at over 200 releases now and more content is coming pretty much every week.
Hands down HDDVD players show off high def's true potential. If you are a true videophile and are looking for the best picture than HDDVD is what you want. Just ask the consumers who returned their Blue ray players to the store.Unfortunately, some of those people were pretty ignorant about what determines image quality and made assumptions that weren't true about how much was related to the formats. Early on the HD DVD releases did tend to have much better image quality to most of us. Recently that really hasn't been the case. For the last couple of weeks releases it looks like the BDs have been getting better reviews for image quality. Both formats have some stuff that looks awesome and some stuff that looks poor. If "The Game" had been released on HD DVD early on instead of last week and "The Fifth Element" hadn't been released so early on for Blu-ray, then people may have had different impressions of the image quality between the two formats. But once somebody gets something in their head, it is hard to change their beliefs, even if those aren't true.
Um... LoTR will be HD-DVD.At this point it should be coming out on both formats.

--Darin

sweetchuck, I'm pretty sure Mark's right. That computer is way too slow. I have been through three HTPC's since I had something similar (an AMD 2600+). That is, if it's the Athlon 2500 you're using, and not a newer dual core thing from AMD. Haven't really been following AMD lately since I found the stability I needed and wanted with Pentiums.

Yeah I figured it was way slow , But what about the 6600GT would it take advantage of hardware decoding??

Say if I where to upgrade main board / CPU would this cut it ??
Trying to do this on the cheap , or I may as well go with discrete players and moome .

Mines an athlon not the duel core.

Stan, your plan is the same as mine man.

But I fear that your PC is too slow. I just upgraded to a dual core opteron, and when I had a loaner x1950 video card it played King Kong HD-DVD easily. With the next gen video cards the hardware accel offloads most of the processing - you might get away with it...maybe..

It doesn't work with a 6800GT, PDVD just crashes. But Dokworm had it working with a 6600GT, don't ask me what the difference is.

If you are using analogue out you shouldn't need to rip them first.

I almost bought a drive on the weekend, but the only one I could find was A$250 at Tricky Dicky's - I heard they are A$200 at BigW - but they were out of stock.

But as I need a new video card first, I can wait. And I'm waiting for the next gen ATi card.

Mark do you have Wow sight and sound down that way? , $199 last time I looked

What's a Wow sight and sound?

What's a Wow sight and sound?

I take it thats a no , But anyway I went ahead and bought one today to piss about with, it was $220. Woolies gave me a blank look :confused:
Time to upgrade the ole HTPC

A$220? Nice price. Wonder how long before I can buy a BD drive for $200?

I would seriously wait a week or two for some real world feedback on the 8500/8600 cards....well, they probably won't get here for a month anyway.

Or wait for ATi's response, which is my plan. Then I can weigh feedback on both of them and choose.

But if you 6600GT is PCI express, it should work.

Yeah I figured it was way slow , But what about the 6600GT would it take advantage of hardware decoding??

Say if I where to upgrade main board / CPU would this cut it ??
Trying to do this on the cheap , or I may as well go with discrete players and moome .

Mines an athlon not the duel core.

Then it sure is too slow. I don't actually know if the 6600GT will do any HW decoding of HD material, but I think so. If I remember correctly the 6600 series does, but the 6800 series doesn't. And you would need memory as well, and we're not talking about a small upgrade of mobo/CPU/Memory, to get stability (and an overhead) you would have to go for a pretty good Core2Duo or similar.

Then it sure is too slow. I don't actually know if the 6600GT will do any HW decoding of HD material, but I think so. If I remember correctly the 6600 series does, but the 6800 series doesn't. And you would need memory as well, and we're not talking about a small upgrade of mobo/CPU/Memory, to get stability (and an overhead) you would have to go for a pretty good Core2Duo or similar.

Always the way isn't it, all or nothing :(

That's what makes computers so interesting. I could of course buy a Crystalio scaler and never have to upgrade again, but what's the fun in that? ;) And besides I can get six HTPC's for the price of one Crystalio!