Question for those of you who have the Toshiba RD-XS35, or who have used another Toshiba model v. a Panasonic model that allows you to edit......

On a "customer review" on Amazon concerning the RD-XS35, he indicated that the editing feature was not "exact" - i.e. that it was always about a half second (15 frames) off where he designated the edit to be......

Is this true?

I currently own a Panasonic DMR E85H and have used it since August 2004 to record (primarily) football games to the hard drive - then edit them (remove everything but plays and replays) then burn the resulting 50 minute title down to DVD......

The Panasonic in this regard is excellent.

That being said... given the discontinuation of the EH55S - I have been able to track down access to:

1) Panasonic EH75VS
2) Toshiba RD-XS35

However, despite the 160 gig hard drive of the Tosbhiba.... if the editing feature is not as good as the Pansonic that defeats the purpose (for my use of the machine).

I appreciate any feedback from fellow forum members.......I am simply trying to acquire a second machine before the machines with hard drives and editing capability are no longer available.....

Just so others dont chime in what what I have just learned.......

1. Just spoke with the Toshiba representatives.... and there apparently are key differences in the editing "process" between the Panasonic machines and the Toshiba machines.....

a. With the Panasonic machine (that I have) - you simply delete content from a title you have reocrded and the machine automatically "smushes" together the remaining content in the title... new chapters are not created....

b. According to the Toshiba rep & the owners manual (available online) - the Toshiba editing process entails setting chapter start and end points & any edit creates a "new chapter."

2. This difference in editing is evident in the Panasonic automatically fading in and fading out with the sound.... whereas the Toshiba does not......

3. The Toshiba rep stated that she was not aware of any complaints regarding the "exactness" of the edits regarding frame slippage.

Bottom Line - For Sports Enthusiasts... the Toshiba is not the product to buy..... if anyone has a contrary opinion and evidence that the Toshiba will perform in a similar manner as the Pansonic - please reply and provide as much information as possible - it would be greatly appreciated......

b. According to the Toshiba rep & the owners manual (available online) - the Toshiba editing process entails setting chapter start and end points & any edit creates a "new chapter."

2. This difference in editing is evident in the Panasonic automatically fading in and fading out with the sound.... whereas the Toshiba does not......
..

Can't speak of the Toshiba but, this is how I edit on my panny EH50, and it creates new edit points just as you state, don't know about older machines. In other words what was decribe about the edit of the Toshiba is how the newer panny EH-50 works, and probably the newer EH-55/75. Now if you reencode the video on burning to hard drive, then that would be different.

And I don't see/hear any fading in or out. Just goes from one frame to the next edited frame. So does not sound like much differences there with the newer panny machines.

As far as "smushes". I would think that the original title is the same on the hard drive, just with the gaps where the edit out parts are taken out, which is why edited playlists are so recommended to be used.

I've only recently begun editing some recordings of home movies (transferred from Hi8) in my Toshiba, and found myself creating start/end chapter points and then deleting chapters for editing the overall content.

The only "less than perfectly exact" issue I might imagine here may be that I had to set start/end points by actually running the content, usually at slow speed, and pressing the remote controller's button at just the proper moments to set these chapter markers.

Sure, it wasn't like being in a PC-based editing program, where I could drag or input a frame/time marker for these points. But, I had little issue in actually marking the points I desired for editing and chapter creation - after some minor forward/reverse toggling to locate the right "frames" - about 14 times for a 1.5 hour piece of Hi8 content. For that content, I created all the chapters I desired to keep and deleted four blocks of stuff that was not needed.

From that edited content, I created two playlists with different chapter combinations. Now, I have two "titles" from those playlists that have been burned to DVD-R discs and finalized with titles, etc.

It's possible that this editing can be done in some other fashion, I suppose - I'm still exploring all of the capabilities of the Toshiba unit. It's highly capable for an all-in-one recording/editing/burning solution, to me - I don't expect all the esoteric and expansion functionality of something like my Adobe Premiere PC-based program, but for something which requires only a remote control to manage, my only complaint is that it wouldn't allow me to delete "chapters" that were considered too short - not that the editing function is somehow less exact than a Panasonic. It's been exact enough for what I expected it to provide.

- ooofest

My Panny E80H does not have frame accurate editing, but I wouldn't say it is 15 frames off (1/2 a second), maybe 5-10, but enough to be annoying :) I think it looks for a keyframe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_frame) to make the edit point which may result in unwanted video "left behind"

If you are looking for frame accurate editing, you will have to go with the PC.

Actually Toshiba does offer frame accurate editing. But I do not think this is unique to Toshiba. I believe it is more a VR mode versus Video Mode issue. Which is not brand specific. VR mode across brands offers frame accurate editing. Meaning Panasonic, Pioneer and Toshiba offer the same frame accurate editing performance.

One thing I have noticed is that Toshiba offers more options when considering frame accurate editing.

Meaning Panasonic, Pioneer and Toshiba offer the same frame accurate editing performance.

Interesting..must have been an improvement over my E80H as it doesn't offer frame accurate editing in any mode (HDD, DVD-RAM, DVD-R (I guess never use DVD-R in my unit).

On a "customer review" on Amazon concerning the RD-XS35, he indicated that the editing feature was not "exact" - i.e. that it was always about a half second (15 frames) off where he designated the edit to be......

I believe the manual does say a half second.

Sure, I would like frame accurate edits, but I like what I get (on my XS32) compared to the audio fade in and out as mentioned on other recorders.

Though I'd say it's probably closer to a quarter of a second (on average). Since I'm usually clipping at commercials, I'll set the chapter a little bit before the fade-in after the commercial, and at the fade-in after the commercials.. leaving some of the black in if possible. ('er' _almost_ always puts nice long many-second fade-outs before/after the commercials. When they don't, it seems like a local station problem. The fade-outs before/after the musical guest on Letterman's show are VERY short, so I end up with a tiny bit of the commercial.)

Also, I believe you can get truly accurate edits if you're willing to do a real-time dub (which of course then involves another compression, but I would say is probably unnoticeable to most people).

In summary, I guess I'm not trying to rationalize what they're doing, but understanding the reasoning behind it (the way MPEG 2 works), I think it's not REALLY a half second, and even if it were, that would still be far better than the edits in VHS days.. (argh, when I was using my JVC VCR to control my Mitsubishi VCR for editing, it would be ~2 seconds at each edit).

Plus, I don't see how the Panasonic could actually '"smushes" together the remaining content in the title'.. If your edit OUT point is in the middle of compressed frames, you'd get horrible artifacts.. Unless it's really AUTOMATICALLY moving the edit *out* point to an uncompressed frame... which means it's not frame accurate.

Actually, that's what I wish all of the recorders did... or only let you pause on the uncompressed frames to make chapter marks. (The XS32 has some kind of special mode to do this, but it's only in the "chapter editing" section and you have to turn it on every single time you go in there.. When I add chapters, I do it in the normal play mode.)

On the XS32 (haven't checked the XS35) you CAN go into a frame-accurate mode from the Chapter Edit menu. I just go through, set the basic points, and if there is stuff I need to absolutely tweak to perfection, drop into the Chapter Edit mode and fix it. 99% of the time I never use it. (The Tosh is pretty good, better than the Panasonic E80 in my experience) The gap MAY BE UP TO 1/2 second but in reality it never will be that much. (it's how MPEG2 compresses, and IBP frames, if I remember correctly you can only really cut on an I frame, and I may have the letters entirely wrong as it's been a long time!)

Basically, the Toshiba is at least as good as other players (since they all use MPEG2) and probably better since it offers a true frame-accurate mode.

Don't trust (or base buying decisions on) reviews on Amazon-- 99% of the time it's someone who just opened the box, tried it out for an hour, and tosses a review up. They're good for a "general flavor" of an item but unless EVERYONE posts the same problem, and there are LOTS of reviews, it's probably user error, unfortunately. The Toshiba is not the easiest unit to use, which means lots of stuff may get overlooked.

I think the Panny E80 does have frame accurate editing. What you do is go to the point close to where you want to edit. Push the pause button. Then from there you can either hit the FF or REW button and it goes back and/or foward a frame at a time. You could also do it by hand by pausing the video as close to the point you want to edit. Then push one of the arrow buttons to the left or right of the enter button. Each press of that arrow button moves your video foward or backward one frame at a time. Once you find the frame you want hit the enter button. Then move a head to the place where you want the end of the edit to be. Do the same thing for the end edit point and it will ask you if you want to cut the video. I am able to get exact frame edit points with the E80.

I know my Panasonic E100 is frame accurate when using the method described by "Justin Time" above. If I place the edit marks correctly, the edit is always right where the edit mark was. I have never been able to figure out this VR mode versus Video Mode issue. I doubt my E100 can do both but I don't know which one it can do. Which ever one it uses, it is frame accurate.

I can't compare it to a Toshiba because I have never seen a Toshiba.

Dave

Speaking for the Panasonic- the E100 sets Start and End points for each scene to be kept. I do just about ALL my editting in Playlists. The E85H and EH55S you set chapter points and then either select the chapters you want to keep or erase the chapters to be dropped. Either works well for the initial round, but the E100 is far better when making changes, especially when I want to add a few seconds.

All three models offer "Seamless Playback" option but when selected, you don't get frame-accurate edit points. Unlike tape, you don't have 30 complete frames per second; you have maybe two or three, with nine or fourteen frames between of just the changes from the previous frame.

End result- a high-speed copy results in a dvd that has about a one-second "freeze" at each edit point where you dropped some frames. The work-around for this is to copy to dvd in real time, but you lose the preselected thumbnail and chapter markers. You takes your choice!

There have been a few EH55S's showing up on eBay.

Can you believe we are comparing the very first decent HDD Recorder- the 2003 Panny E-80? I have one still and it is great but it does not compare to my 2005 Pio 531 or 2006 Pio 640. However that Panny is built like a tank and amazes me every day with records at my ranch house. It is The Jesus of DVD Recorders so far. It is freaking amazing in durability. Just format the HDD if you do a lot of HDD sectioning and editing- divide is Ok.

On the XS32 (haven't checked the XS35) you CAN go into a frame-accurate mode from the Chapter Edit menu. I just go through, set the basic points, and if there is stuff I need to absolutely tweak to perfection, drop into the Chapter Edit mode and fix it. . .

Thanks, I hadn't gotten that far into my XS35 editing options yet. Putting a Pause on each chapter playback in that edit mode allowed for advancing a "frame" at a time to check my prior chapter divisions, with ease. Good stuff.

- ooofest

Thanks much to all of those who posted above.......

I just wanted to clarify some items.....

IF the Toshiba was able to edit like the Panasonic - I would prefer to purchase the Toshiba... because it has double the hard drive (160 v. 80 gig).... however, it does not appear to be able to edit like the Panasonic.... thus, I was hoping any owners of the XS-35 (or similar Toshiba products) could definitively say yes/no to whether it edits or has the same editing capabilities as the Panasonics.......(at least the ones with the hard drives)

1. I already own an E85H - and the posters towards the end detailed what I was referring to with the Panasonics -specifically, you edit by going into:

a. Direct Navigator
b. "shorten title"
c. By using the pause button and then advancing or rewinding at the slowest possible rate, you can set edit points by "frame" - to get frame specific edits.....

Ex. When editing football games... sometimes the director of the broadcast nearly misses the next play by staying with the replay of the previous play too long... so in order to completely eliminate the graphics that come flying off the screen that they use to "close out" the replay... you have to do frame editing - to make sure you are still getting as much of what you want left - immediately after the graphic disappears (yes, I have OCD - what can I say).

d. Once these edits are made - the "deleted" portion of the title is removed...

e. This is where the auto fading of the sound comes in - so that when you are making hundreds of edits in a given title - after every play... you arent chopping together the announcer's statement from the first play - with his description of the second play..... the audio fades in and out around each edit point... automatically...

f. With the Panasonic editing setup - you can make hundreds of edits to the same title.....

3. Having said that - it's not clear to me that the Toshiba is capable or is designed to make these types of edits.

a. The owners manual advises not to "delete" content - in the same manner of the Panasonic - but to simply label chapters and then when you burn them down - do not include the chapters you dont want - then delete the whole title after burning the DVD

b. The manual and the Toshiba customer service rep also describe a process whereby every edit "creates" a new chapter. And there is a limit to how mnay chapters you can have on any given title... thus, there would be a limit to how many edits you could make with a giiven title......

Summary: Thus, what I was hoping to definitively find out was whether my understanding of the Toshiba's capabilities/process for editing was correct - and that it does not mirror the editing process of the Panasonics, which is a process I need/prefer. Thus, I am willing to pay more money for a smaller hard drivein order to have a spare in case my E85H suffers a non repairable meltdown in the period of time before quality hard drive DVD Recorders return to the marketplace. However, if in fact the Toshiba will do the same things from an editing perspective - the extra drive space would be preferrable.

I appreciate any additional assistance forum members can provide.

If anyone has any questions about the editing of football games or the use of their Panasonic to nake football highlight tapes, let me know.

I think this is a case that you're asking questions about a pretty specific use that no one's done, which doesn't mean the Toshiba can't or won't do it, just that no one's really tried what you're doing.

If this helps:
The Toshibas encourage you to use playlists instead of directly editing the recorded content (to prevent disk fragmentation). You can make a playlist of your entire show/event, and then put in chapter points. You can pause and use frame advance/rewind to put a chapter point at a specific point. It is usually very close to the correct place, and I don't notice much of a functional difference between my E80 and the XS32 in the sense of where the frame is.

You can delete content from the playlists at will. You can also merge chapter points back together so that you don't have dozens or hundreds of chapters.

There isn't a DIRECT replacement to the Shorten Segment mode, I don't THINK, although I may be wrong. (I don't use my Toshibas to edit in the way you're describing) It'd be more of a two step process, of marking the chapters and then going into the Playlist editing mode.

I think what you provided was very helpful to me - in the sense that with the Toshiba it would be a 2 or 3 step process to do the same things I am currently doing with the Panasonic.......

With the Toshiba - you would have to set the chapter points; go to the play list editing mode - remove those chapters, and then potentially go back and combine the chapters that remain - in order to keep the chapters to a manageable level........

Thanks.... I only wish I had bought the 200 gig Panasonic before they were discontinued.... Argh......

Once you remove the chapters from the playlist, it's a one step process to re-combine all chapters (Quick Menu-Merge All Chapters from the Chapter Edit mode; then you could do like an automatic 5-minute chapter mark with another command), so that isn't a big deal. But to the best of my knowledge there's no way to drop a segment automatically as you go, although it may be hidden somewhere in the Toshiba settings.. I'll try to remember to check when I get home.

I have the XS32 and I would say that the editing is not exact. It is exact when viewing it on the HD, but when burning it to a DVD it won't be. Most of the time you can't tell. For example when editing commercials there is usually enough black space so one cannot tell, but if it is very tight on there is only on frame of black, I will pause it and put the chapter mark there and then after burning it to DVD, I will many times see a frame or 2 of the image just before where I paused it and put the chapter mark.

If it is something I need to be perfect, I just do a line dub and keep the quality the same. I lose the original chapters marks but everything is clean.

Overall though the Toshiba's are the best machines when it comes to editing capabilities.

Maybe the Toshiba editing is like the Pioneer. The Pioneer is set up for DVD-/+R and DVD-/+RW disks. In this case the - disks allow only 99 edit points and the + disks allow something like 49 edit points. I think it's in the manual somewhere. So, if I had one large title (like a football game) each time I make an edit it puts in an edit point or chapter mark. So even though I have one large football game it only allows me to make only 99 edits to the football game. After that, even though I'm not done editing the game it will not allow me to do any more because a -R/RW disk only allows 99 edit points per disk. I think the +R's are even less. The old Panny's work more with RAM and ignores the 99 edit points. It allows you to make like 999 edit points in any fashion. That's why you are able to edit down a whole football game in one large file and only get one title with no edit points or chapter marks. Then you go back and put in your chapter marks with the chapter edit button when you are done. The old Panny's ignore that 99/49 DVD -/+ edit rule. I don't know about the new Panny's though.

Maybe the Toshiba is like the Pioneer and set up for not RAM disks but for +/- R/RW disks. If so, then I would guess that you would only get like 99 edits per title. Each time you do an edit it counts as a chapter mark and you are only given 99 edits per video title. After that you have to divide your game into a second part after edit point 98. Then you are given 99 new edit points with the second divided video of the same game.

I think what you provided was very helpful to me - in the sense that with the Toshiba it would be a 2 or 3 step process to do the same things I am currently doing with the Panasonic.......

With the Toshiba - you would have to set the chapter points; go to the play list editing mode - remove those chapters, and then potentially go back and combine the chapters that remain - in order to keep the chapters to a manageable level........

You CAN delete chapters from within a recording, just like you describe on the Panasonic. I have gotten into the 'use the playlist' method, since it's actually often faster.. (Plus, since I did hose my hard drive once -- in retrospect I place blame mostly on Toshiba, partially on me..)

But anyway, since both give warnings about not deleting chapters from a recording, I am trying to follow those recommendations.

On the XS32 (haven't checked the XS35) you CAN go into a frame-accurate mode from the Chapter Edit menu.

(Argh, most of the replies sent after mine from last night are just repeating things I said in my response!)

I believe you are talking about GOP mode, which is NOT frame accurate mode.. In fact, it's sort of the opposite.. It's simply only letting you pause on 'valid' frames to set a chapter.

Plus, chapter editing mode is weird -- or else it's one of the few things about the XS32 I haven't really "learned". You go into it, and then you essentially move the chapter a frame at a time, and the whole window refreshes?? it's really weird.

The XS32 loves to refresh the screen.. you haven't figured that out yet? :) (it's the one thing that drives me NUTS about the UI)

Only letting you cut on 'valid' frames is about the only way to really do a true, legal chapter-level point, if I understand the MPEG-2 format correctly (only cutting on I Frames)... not sure how the other recorders pull off doing anything else... or do they have weird static for a split second at the cut? (if you put an "I" frame and then a different frame's differential frames, it seems like you'd get garbage at the cut)

Either that, or the other recorders use a different IBP ratio to allow for better cuts.

Maybe the Toshiba editing is like the Pioneer. The Pioneer is set up for DVD-/+R and DVD-/+RW disks. In this case the - disks allow only 99 edit points and the + disks allow something like 49 edit points. I think it's in the manual somewhere.
While the Pioneer has some limit to number of edits, it's based on how many and how much disc space is left. There is no finite number.

The 999/99/49 refer to number of titles per HDD/DVD and number of chapters per title.

Well I know when I reach 99 edit points on the Pioneer's HDD it won't let me do any more editing and I thought I read it in the manual that the - R disks allow for only 99 edit points per video title. True, there might be a number of video titles that you can have on the disk but I think there is also a number of chapter marks/video edits that you can have per each video on the Pioneer and maybe the Toshiba too.

Well I know when I reach 99 edit points on the Pioneer's HDD it won't let me do any more editing and I thought I read it in the manual that the - R disks allow for only 99 edit points per video title. True, there might be a number of video titles that you can have on the disk but I think there is also a number of chapter marks/video edits that you can have per each video on the Pioneer and maybe the Toshiba too.
Sorry for hijacking this thread.

HDD = 999 titles, 99 chapters/title
DVD-R/-RW = 99 titles/disc, 99 chapters/title
DVD+R/+RW = 49 titles/disc, 99 chapters/title (but 254 chapters max. per disc)

Maybe you reached the 99 chapters/title limit (each "edit/erase" creates a chapter)...or your HDD ran out of room?

No, my hard drive is very empty. For some reason the HDD knows that it can only handle 99 edits per video title. It knows line two of your post "DVD-R/-RW = 99 titles/disc, 99 chapters/title."