I'm finally getting around to renovating my basement which includes upgrading my electrical panel. I have a HT in the basement and am planning to run dedicated lines with the aim of getting the best sound/picture possible. I'm also taking Chu Gai's advice and installing a whole house surge protector at the panel to stop the intruder before it gets into the house. I'm not an electrician so I'm not too familiar with this so I have a few questions:

Is a dedicated 20 amp line (vs 15 amp) necessary? Note: I'll probably be using some big mono block amps. What is the advantage of 20 amp anyways? The run from the panel is not too far (maybe 15' feet so I don't think the incremental cost will be much.

Do I need a "dedicated ground" as well for this line or will the ground for the Whole house surge protector be sufficient?

Are the whole house protectors from Home Depot adequate or should I go for the fancier ones that claim to provide conditioning also eg. Surgex
http://www.surgex.com/products/sx20ne.html

I'm also going to install hospital grade outlets, is there anything else I should install while I'm at it?

I'm finally getting around to renovating my basement which includes upgrading my electrical panel. I have a HT in the basement and am planning to run dedicated lines with the aim of getting the best sound/picture possible. I'm also taking Chu Gai's advice and installing a whole house surge protector at the panel to stop the intruder before it gets into the house. I'm not an electrician so I'm not too familiar with this so I have a few questions:

Good Luck and enjoy!

Is a dedicated 20 amp line (vs 15 amp) necessary? Note: I'll probably be using some big mono block amps. What is the advantage of 20 amp anyways? The run from the panel is not too far (maybe 15' feet so I don't think the incremental cost will be much.

A dedicated feed of 15 or 20 amperes may be large enough for all of your equipment? We don't know until you post your equipment power requirements. I use an AV rack which has two 20A outlets dedicated to the equipment btw

Do I need a "dedicated ground" as well for this line or will the ground for the Whole house surge protector be sufficient?

A ground wire will need to be installed to the outlet feeding the equipment along with the 'hot' and 'return' wires....if that is what you intend.

Are the whole house protectors from Home Depot adequate or should I go for the fancier ones that claim to provide conditioning also eg. Surgex
http://www.surgex.com/products/sx20ne.html

I am not familiar with the Home depot suppression items, however, be wary of the stuff sold in the big box stores until you can research the equipment. You may also try Innovative technology (XT40) or similar devices.

I'm also going to install hospital grade outlets, is there anything else I should install while I'm at it?

Hospital grade outlets are OK, they are just more costly than higher quality outlets of similar build quality.

Conditioning is more important closer to the components that really matter (signal source, pre-amp, and to some extent, power amp). The reason is that things within your house (fridge, computer, etc) will provide noise that a whole-house conditioner won't remove.

Are the whole house protectors from Home Depot adequate or should I go for the fancier ones that claim to provide conditioning also eg. Surgex
http://www.surgex.com/products/sx20ne.htmlThat is a 20Amp protector that handles one line/circuit; it is not a whole house protector.

That is a 20Amp protector that handles one line/circuit; it is not a whole house protector.

Yes, my installer was suggesting the Surgex unit for the dedicated line, I would still have to buy a whole house surge protector to protect the rest of lines.

AVDoogie: I would have a Projector, DVDP, cable box, CDP, Pre/Pro and 2-3 Amps.

If you are going to rewire, then the cost for the 12 AWG wiring, breakers, outlets for a 20A circuit are marginal. Go for it. I really didn't have a chance to rewire my basement and run on two seperate 15A lines. I run a ton of power house amps (2 x Crown K1, Bryston 6B SST, 4B SST, 3B SST, 2 x Buttkicker amps) in addition to a power hungry CRT. I have never tripped a breaker even when running bass heavy scenes full tilt like the Pod race or the plane crash in Flight of the Phoenix to impress the boys.

I'm also going to install hospital grade outlets, is there anything else I should install while I'm at it?

Don't use hospital grade outlets - many of them are also isolated ground which is not necessary, and really doesn't isolate anything with Romex-style wiring. Just get good commercial grade outlets and you'll be fine.

I also second, or third, going with 20A circuits as the cost is minimally more than running 15A circuits.

Also, I saw some mention of "dedicated ground", not sure what you really mean by that, but be careful with this because creating more ground paths can easily create or exacerbate potential for ground loops.

At the risk of getting all of your "backs up", check out this review of this audiophile grade outlet and in wall wiring, the reviewer claims that there is a big difference from Romex. What exactly is Romex anyways, is it simply a generic brand of in wall wiring? Its expensive, but I'm tempted to try it.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/Magazine/equipment/1206/ps_audio_jps_labs.htm

[QUOTE=mikeyc] What exactly is Romex anyways, is it simply a generic brand of in wall wiring?

Yes, Romex is just a trade name like "Kleenex"

I don't know why most of you guys don't think an isolated ground works or is not worth it. As most you know but I will say for others reading this, in a regular circuit the ground is tied to each plug and each box where as in an isolated cct the receptacle (plug) is isolated from the box and ground goes straight to the grd block at the panel. Is that not the path of least resistance therefore eliminating the chance of a grd loop?

the reviewer claims that there is a big difference from Romex. What exactly is Romex anyways,

This speaks volumes.

in an isolated cct the receptacle (plug) is isolated from the box and ground goes straight to the grd block at the panel

...where it connects to all the other ground wires in the building.

The isolated ground is called safety ground. I'ts not required for normal operation, it doesn't carry any current (except in a fault condition).

...where it connects to all the other ground wires in the building.

Ok but from the panel ground block isn't the path of least resistance to earth ground?

Again correct me, but to me in a regular circuit there are many connections therefore many chances for a ground loop, not so with an isolated ground cct.

A ground loop occurs when there are multiple paths to ground, A difference in impedance between these paths will result in a voltage drop across the interconnect, which appears as hum bars in video, and audible hum in audio.
Sometimes, these ground loops have absolutely noting to do with safety ground.....which should have no current flowing through it anyway.

A ground loop occurs when there are multiple paths to ground.

To me, this is a normal circuits, chances of multiple paths where as in an isolated ground circuit. little chance of multiple paths.

Away , I am old & forgetful so I will differ to you. Thanks for trying to straighten me out.

Afaik, isolated ground is generally used to isolate the equipment grounding conductor ("safety ground") from the rigid or flexible metal conduit and metallic building structure - at least back to the service entrance, anyway.

Besides, all the hub-bub about isolated grounds in dedicated circuits seems to be a moot point anyway because the implication of "dedicated" is not shared with other equipment.

So, if you have dedicated circuits, and use non-metallic sheathed cable, and no tie-in to metal conduit/metallic building structure, what's the point?

The grounding provisions/methods in NEC are not about preventing ground loops, they're about safety....

I just read this review of the JPS in wall AC cable....
http://www.jpslabs.com/Reviews2/inwall1.htm

supposed to be significantly better than regular cable, what do you think?

I have used the JPS inwall to make a few DIY power cord. To my ears, they definitely sound more "punchy" and lively then the generic stock cord.
They are very expensive though and thats why I ended up using Romex for my dedicated line (which would need >50' of cables) A quick test will be to compare the two as a power cord and see if you can hear the difference.

Like others already said, the cost between 15amp vs 20amp line is minuscule. To make things right, I suggest running two dedicated 20amp line if your new panel allows it. This way you are kind of future proof as well.

Call me skeptical, but I bet if his wife switched the power source without his knowledge he wouldn't even notice.

Now, I'm really confused, this is what an authorized Panamax dealer says...

For the best protection, Panamax also recommends installing point of use protectors for your valueable equipment, especially electronic equipment. This will protect you from surges of any origin (for example surges inside the house, or surges through the phone line). The Max Service Entrance Protector (or ANY other whole house protector) is not designed to protect sensitive electronics, it is designed to protect motor-driven household appliances. No so called whole house protector is really suitable for electronics protection in home theater systems.

This is contrary what a lot of you guys (eg Chu Gai) have been saying all along, they say we also need point of use protectors. :(

This is contrary what a lot of you guys (eg Chu Gai) have been saying all along, they say we also need point of use protectors. :(

No, not necessarily. I've seen several suggestions implying that a whole-house protector at the main panel and point of use devices for extra sensitive equipment is the belt and suspenders approach.

Bear in mind that some devices, such as my Anthem AVM 20, indicate NOT to use additional power gizmos as they claim sufficient protection is built-in.

Hey, it your coin, and if it makes you feel good, go for it.

However, I think a fear of imminent disaster has been created and grips too many people when it comes to this sort of thing - super-mega power conditioning stuff, that is.

Besides, afaik, electric motors are not very sensitive to surges, but they can be damaged by sustained low voltage "brown out" conditions. So, the line you got about the whole house protector is not entirely true, IMO - at least electric motors aren't a very relevant example to use.

This is contrary what a lot of you guys (eg Chu Gai) have been saying all along, they say we also need point of use protectors. :(Not really. The whole-house protector is the first line of defense and is closest to the ground, the most effective location. However, one may need to protect against electrical disturbances that occur after that device, i.e., that are not line-borne. For those, point of use devices PLUS a protection device on every signal line, such as phone, data, cable, etc.

Yep a whole house protector will not provide protection if the tv cable is the source of surge. Correct me if I am wrong, but if the tv cable is the carrier, the TV is busted, plus the dvd connected to it, plus the processor connected to the dvd, and then the amp connected to the pre-pro, it becomes a chain reaction.

This is contrary what a lot of you guys (eg Chu Gai) have been saying all along, they say we also need point of use protectors.
No, I've always said the right way to do it was first, whole house, second, point of use.

Yep a whole house protector will not provide protection if the tv cable is the source of surge. Correct me if I am wrong, but if the tv cable is the carrier, the TV is busted, plus the dvd connected to it, plus the processor connected to the dvd, and then the amp connected to the pre-pro, it becomes a chain reaction.

Maybe, maybe not.

One never can predict just what will happen. Everything could fry, none could fry, any combination in between could fry.

Yep a whole house protector will not provide protection if the tv cable is the source of surge. Correct me if I am wrong, but if the tv cable is the carrier, the TV is busted, plus the dvd connected to it, plus the processor connected to the dvd, and then the amp connected to the pre-pro, it becomes a chain reaction.Not if the on-site protection device has a lower impedance path to ground.

No, I've always said the right way to do it was first, whole house, second, point of use.

OK, my apologies then, I stand corrected.

BTW, being up where you are, AFAIK, lightning isn't much of an issue for you. Modest, meaning there's tons of solutions out there, protection around 1000 joules or so should not only be more than adequate, but should last you a pretty long time. Siemen's for example, makes something for your AC that takes up two breaker spots. The incoming cable and phone lines you can do yourself without any concern for danger. There are even one-box solutions. A few months ago, I started a thread on the one-box approaches. A search ought to turn something up.

just read it, good summary Chu, thanks

here it is for you guys too lazy to search...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=805347

You know mike, I'd thought there were going to be tons of one-box solutions out there and as I started digging, only a few turned up. I was pretty disappointed. It seems to me, that the Leviton model provides fairly decent protection and at least is discounted so if you went with it, maybe it wouldn't soak you too bad being up in Canada.

I am finishing my basement and want to make sure I understand the recommendations. It sounds like people still recommend a whole house surge protector and protection at the outlet for individual components? It also sounds like people are saying if you use a dedicated (separate 20 amp line) for your home theater equipment you don't need to use an isolated ground for that outlet since it is dedicated already?
Any special rules to consider when doing your own speaker wiring other then keeping the speaker cable away from AC lines and only passing the lines at perpendicular angles?
Thanks.

Any special rules to consider when doing your own speaker wiring other then keeping the speaker cable away from AC lines and only passing the lines at perpendicular angles?
Thanks.
The only reason to keep speaker wire away from AC power circuits is concern that the AC line will short across the speaker line. By their electrical nature speaker wires as part of a low impedance circuit are not going to pickup noise in the audible range. Try it for yourself. Run a length of speaker wire right next to an in use extension cord; see if you can detect any added hum or noise.

Likewise there is no reason to cross wires at right angles (other than neatness of course ;) ).

I'm basing this information on Home Theater Mag's guide to speaker wire installation. I found it listed in the Home Theater 101 post on this message board.

"Bozo No-No Number One: Don't run speaker wire in close proximity to any other type of electrical lines, especially high-voltage and lighting lines. Keep your speaker wire as far from these lines as possible—at least 16 inches—and don't run them parallel to each other. If the twain must meet, cross them at a 90-degree angle. The speaker wire can pick up a 60-Hz hum and is susceptible to carrying all sorts of unwanted electrical noise."

If this is not accurate it would certainly make wiring a lot easier.
Thanks.

Try what trekguy said and find out for yourself.

Yep a whole house protector will not provide protection if the tv cable is the source of surge. Correct me if I am wrong, but if the tv cable is the carrier, the TV is busted, plus the dvd connected to it, plus the processor connected to the dvd, and then the amp connected to the pre-pro, it becomes a chain reaction.

Many surge devices have provisions for cable and satellite lines, along with phone.

For plug in devices at the outlets, sure. At the meter or breaker box though it's hard to find devices that incorporate it all in one box.

It just gets more and more confusing... I spoke to a guy at Surgex, who seems very knowlegeable, he strongly doesn't recommend a Whole House Protector b/c he said that it simply diverts the surge to the ground which may leak to the other circuits and end up at your audio gear anyways. Also, they typically incorporate MOVs which require constant monitoring and replacement by an electrician if and when they blow.

they typically incorporate MOVs which require constant monitoring and replacement by an electrician if and when they blow

Just like your typical power strip, or home entertainment center surge suppressor.
You really have to go for high-quality, expensive, systems to get away from that.
Or you could build one yourself, using some really big relays and a little bit of wiring :-)
(don't try that at home, please, it's a joke)