I just recently purchased a set of speaker and an audio receiver i just adjusted the speakers reference level to 75dbs by using the receivers internal test tones. So now that that is done does anyone know the optimal volume level for movie playback? I sit about 11 feet back from my front speakers if that helps.

here is my equipment
yamaha htr-5860
klipsch f-2
c-2
s-2
sub-10

So now that that is done does anyone know the optimal volume level for movie playback?
The optimal level is the one that, within reason, sounds good to you. This may vary from movie to movie.

I just recently purchased a set of speaker and an audio receiver i just adjusted the speakers reference level to 75dbs by using the receivers internal test tones. So now that that is done does anyone know the optimal volume level for movie playback? I sit about 11 feet back from my front speakers if that helps.



The only thing that particular calibration does is even out all of the signal levels coming out of each speaker (which is a good thing). Distance means nothing much in that you calibrate for the listening position (distance) anyhow, and 11 feet is a nice distance to sit from the speakers (about the same as my room).

In addition, you have simply determined the maximum volume level that you should use to playback Dolby Digital material (AKA Dolby Reference Level). You have not determined any "reference playback level" for PL-2, CD's, video tapes, DTS content, or anything else.

An example of this is War of the Worlds. I can listen to WOTW Dolby Digital (DD) at -3 dB from my calibrated "Dolby Reference Level" master volume setting with no problem. The DTS version of WOTW plays back at 8 dB higher in volume level than the DD version with the same master volume setting (way, way too loud). So, the DTS version has to be played back at -11 dB from the calibrated "Dolby reference Level" to sound good to me. Same DVD, same content, just a different encoding scheme (DD verses DTS).

After a while, you just know where the "typical" DVD sounds good on your system in your room. "Typical" DD content in my system sounds good at about -8 dB down from calibrated "Dolby Reference Level".

The only thing that particular calibration does is even out all of the signal levels coming out of each speaker (which is a good thing). Distance means nothing much in that you calibrate for the listening position (distance) anyhow, and 11 feet is a nice distance to sit from the speakers (about the same as my room).
Huh?

In addition, you have simply determined the maximum volume level that you should use to playback Dolby Digital material (AKA Dolby Reference Level). You have not determined any "reference playback level" for PL-2, CD's, video tapes, DTS content, or anything else.
This is not true. There is a proper way to calibrate and get reference volume. I explained how and why in this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=769733&page=2&pp=30&highlight=reference). However, most people just use their living room for HT in their home and this is not a very controlled environment for sound. Reflections, absorptions and dimensional interactions create big humps in frequency response. Often in this situation a deviation from reference volume will sound better.

An example of this is War of the Worlds. I can listen to WOTW Dolby Digital (DD) at -3 dB from my calibrated "Dolby Reference Level" master volume setting with no problem. The DTS version of WOTW plays back at 8 dB higher in volume level than the DD version with the same master volume setting (way, way too loud). So, the DTS version has to be played back at -11 dB from the calibrated "Dolby reference Level" to sound good to me. Same DVD, same content, just a different encoding scheme (DD verses DTS).
While I don't doubt what you are observing, this is not what should happen and should be a clue to you that some of your settings are incorrect. Your mention of -11 is close enough to -10 to make me think that you are probably running through a crossover of your AVR by setting it to the small speaker setting. Then you have your DTS LFE setting wrong as this is a +10 setting.

Huh?


This is not true. There is a proper way to calibrate and get reference volume. I explained how and why in this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=769733&page=2&pp=30&highlight=reference). However, most people just use their living room for HT in their home and this is not a very controlled environment for sound. Reflections, absorptions and dimensional interactions create big humps in frequency response. Often in this situation a deviation from reference volume will sound better.


While I don't doubt what you are observing, this is not what should happen and should be a clue to you that some of your settings are incorrect. Your mention of -11 is close enough to -10 to make me think that you are probably running through a crossover of your AVR by setting it to the small speaker setting. Then you have your DTS LFE setting wrong as this is a +10 setting.



Boy do you have a lot to learn!!!

You better research recording standards (what material is calibrated to any "Reference Level") and the use of Dialnorm (sole use is for DD). If your receiver does not give you a dialnorm readout, and if you don't have a clue on what dialnorm does, then you just don't know that it even exists.

Like I said, even though you are calibrating for DD "Reference" playback level, that does not mean much at all due to the use of Dialnorm in the DD encoding process. DD and DTS do not playback at the same levels due to the use of various Dialnorm values that vary from DVD to DVD.

WOTW has a DD Dialnorm value of -23, and full volume DD requires the use of a Dialnorm value of -31 (AKA 8 dB lower in volume with -23 Dialnorm value). DTS plays back with no volume reduction in all cases (WOTW and everything else).

HarryPT....he is right....

So to the quesion at hand.

It is all up to your ears. Some like it LOUD and some just like it normal.

Mine is all dialed in at 75db like it should be and my DTS listening MV averages to be about -10db to -12db.....DD is about -6db to -10db MV.

I like it loud...and in the small/med sized room that i have...its loud and clear :D
Moral of the story....Just play with your system. Put in different DVD's (DTS and DD) and you will learn your comfort level. The one thing that will remain constant is that DTS tracks will be need to be played 4-5db lower than DD but that is just because the DTS tracks are recorded a little hotter thus it all averages out to the same MV.

Boy do you have a lot to learn!!!

You better research recording standards (what material is calibrated to any "Reference Level") and the use of Dialnorm (sole use is for DD). If your receiver does not give you a dialnorm readout, and if you don't have a clue on what dialnorm does, then you just don't know that it even exists.

Like I said, even though you are calibrating for DD "Reference" playback level, that does not mean much at all due to the use of Dialnorm in the DD encoding process. DD and DTS do not playback at the same levels due to the use of various Dialnorm values that vary from DVD to DVD.

WOTW has a DD Dialnorm value of -23, and full volume DD requires the use of a Dialnorm value of -31 (AKA 8 dB lower in volume with -23 Dialnorm value). DTS plays back with no volume reduction in all cases (WOTW and everything else).
My guess is you are baiting me with one of the funniest arguments I've ever read on these forums.

As for your insults, sometimes you may meet someone lurking on here with quite a bit of experience, they are out there. When you meet them, arrogance will not be confused for knowledge.

Dialnorm is not used in the encoding process of DD. It is a flag in the digital domain only and inserted by broadcast media like CBS during the compression before broadcast (that is digital and dynamic compression). It is used to level things out between the people that have high end playback and the ones still using a little b&w tv with one speaker. Altering the mix as your theory suggests would render it permanently changed. A studio will never do this because they never know where they will sell the product later and what format will be required. To get get back to an unaltered mix, they would need a full mixing stage to setup a new printmastering session from the original stems, and that would cost money.

If you know all about dialnorm, it would create quite an annoying problem for you because you would be constantly adjusting for it. It is not meant to be adjusted by the end user. That is the point. It has absolutely nothing to do with properly toning the mixing stage, the printmastering stage or the playback stage, whether it be a theatre or in the case of these forums, your living room. In fact, you would need to tone properly or dialnorm is going to be off.

There is a proper way to setup, and that is (in a very, VERY simplified formula) the 1.85v ouput = 0vu and 85db, period. Now an argument can be made for the living room environment requiring adjustments to that, but that is the way the mixing stage is setup and that is the way it is meant to be played back. Measuring the dialog level is an inexact measure. It can be done electronically, but your ear hears different frequencies differently at different volumes. It is about balance, and that can't be done by an encoder/decoder. That is why the mixing stage is setup with a formula and your playback room should be setup the same way. When dialnorm pushes the level down you will lose some of the backgrounds, mostly the air. some of it creates ambience, sometimes it is brought up to fill holes or noise in an unfixable dialog track. Either way, you've altered the mix from that which was intended. It's your house, you're allowed. While dialnorm may be better than the old pumping compression tv networks used to use, it is still a solution to the home brew low fi John Doe out there.

No mixer wants his mix messed with, EVER, and that is what dialnorm does on the broadcast end. Mixers would much rather have everyone know how to setup properly to playback correctly, but most people don't. Dialnorm is used to equalize volme and the playing field between those that have lousy old tv's and those that don't know what they are doing calibrating their HTIB. If you are looking for better sound and worrying about dialnorm you are moving down the ladder of quality, not up. It means that your system likes that artificial crutch.

Using that as a reason that a poster on these forums has trouble hearing dialog is utter bunk, and I suspect you already know that.

I'm not sure of the intent of the last post, but...Dialnorm is not used in the encoding process of DD. It is a flag in the digital domain only and inserted by broadcast media like CBS during the compression before broadcast (that is digital and dynamic compression). This is incorrect, I can show you pics from my DD encoder if you like. ;) All non-theater bound DD has Dialnorm. It doesn't alter the content though it is just a flag that tells the decoder what to do. (what level to play back the source track) It is set by the engineer, so it is what he intended for the Home environment.

You are mixing Dialnorm and Dynamic Range Compression together. They are not the same thing. When DRC is engaged it looks to the DN setting to determining the correct compression to use, but DRC isn't always on. DN is, there is no getting around it.

There is a proper way to setup, and that is (in a very, VERY simplified formula) the 1.85v ouput = 0vu and 85dbThis is for mixing gear, not playback equipment.

_________
If you want the DD-THX theater "Reference" level for your DVD's you need a DVD with -20dB Pink noise on every channel, and you should calibrate each channel to 85dB (95dB LFE) on an SPL meter at your seat. his will give you the max SPL of 105dB per channel (115dB LFE.) For Home levels use -30db and 75dB. If you do this you will hear the soundtrack at exactly the same volumes as the engineer intended.

You don't have to use "Reference" levels though. Just balance the channels and play at a volume comfortable to you. :)

This will not carryover to any other input though.

I'm not sure of the intent of the last post, but... This is incorrect, I can show you pics from my DD encoder if you like. ;) All non-theater bound DD has Dialnorm. It doesn't alter the content though it is just a flag that tells the decoder what to do. (what level to play back the source track) It is set by the engineer, so it is what he intended for the Home environment.

You are mixing Dialnorm and Dynamic Range Compression together. They are not the same thing. When DRC is engaged it looks to the DN setting to determining the correct compression to use, but DRC isn't always on. DN is, there is no getting around it.

This is for mixing gear, not playback equipment.

_________
If you want the DD-THX theater "Reference" level for your DVD's you need a DVD with -20dB Pink noise on every channel, and you should calibrate each channel to 85dB (95dB LFE) on an SPL meter at your seat. his will give you the max SPL of 105dB per channel (115dB LFE.) For Home levels use -30db and 75dB. If you do this you will hear the soundtrack at exactly the same volumes as the engineer intended.

You don't have to use "Reference" levels though. Just balance the channels and play at a volume comfortable to you. :)

This will not carryover to any other input though.
Here is the problem with your theory. Dialnorm is constantly adjusting, or adjusting show to show anyway. In order for that adjustment to mean something, it has to start with a calibrated level or reference level. The 1.85v through to 85db is not just for the mixing stage, that is the standard. Every recordist knows that first you tone everything up to that standard with no processing, then you add processing and check that things stay the same or change to the standards of the processing. If people are not going to tone their room to the initial standard, why bother setting up the mixing stage that way? Lots of companies could have saved boatloads of money over the years and lots of recordists could have slept in later. You could argue that you don't have to do that in your living room, and I would agree, do anything you want, but you would have to agree that 1.85 through each piece of gear to 85db is the standard and if you choose to alter it, you've made the decision to change what was intended by the mixers.

Dialnorm is set by an engineer as you say, but here is another problem. It is set by an engineer in the last stage right before the material goes to home delivery... not a mixing engineer. Often these people are making adjustments at an equipment rack and don't even have a way to monitor what they are doing. They are paid to be concerned with the overal broadcast of their medium, not to preserve the integrity and quality of the mix of each film individually. It is used is a levelling device for the entire broadcast playing field. I'm not confusing it with compression, it has taken the place of compression in the broadcast world.

Now, if you setup your system properly according to the standard reference volume, the job of dialnorm is to constantly ride the gain with different programming to keep a relatively even volume without affecting dynamic range. You could make the argument that it doesn't change the signal, and it doesn't digitally. But we don't listen digitally. So say on a program we have dialnorm lowering the volume a bit, and you lower the volume in your room, which many do. The effects have doubled. Since your ear hears things differently according to volume, the effective mix has changed. For example quiet sounds below your systems threshold will get lost. Another example is that you would have the urge to turn your sub up more because your ear is less sensitive to low frequencies than midrange.

Toning as I recommended is correct. Dialnorm is a secondary, automatic adjustment theoretically dependent on the first calibration being correct. You can't tone to dialnorm, you would be aiming at a moving target.

Toning as I recommended is correct. Dialnorm is a secondary, automatic adjustment theoretically dependent on the first calibration being correct. You can't tone to dialnorm, you would be aiming at a moving target.



The OP was not talking about DD material being broadcast over the air, nor the use of dialnorm for that type volume normalization adjustment (when it is done properly).

Please explain why WOTW DD plays 8 dB lower in volume level that DTS version. Which version plays back at the level intended by the mixer assuming you leave the MV control set to calibrated (Dolby) "Reference Level"??????? The mix is identical!

Here is the problem with your theory. Dialnorm is constantly adjusting, or adjusting show to show anyway. In order for that adjustment to mean something, it has to start with a calibrated level or reference level. It is not theory. :rolleyes:

We are talking about DVDs here. Dialnorm is a set number with no changes during the movie, and based on a known value. 105dB max SPL from each speaker at the listening position, is 0dB on the disk. If you calibrate to -20db on a disk with zero Dialnorm (-31dB encoder side +4dB receiver side) you have set the proper max level. What is hard to understand about this? This is the Home Video playback standard. :p It was set up so you don't have to be an audio engineer to set it up properly.

You can't tone to dialnorm, you would be aiming at a moving target No one has said, or implied this. ;)

Harrypt- I am not saying you are wrong. You are describing exactly how one should go about setting up a recording studio. Been there done that. Sound reproduction on end user equipment is just not as cut and dry.

Let's say you were using an AVR with the speakers connected directly to it. How could a normal person determine where 1.85v on the input before the amp section in the AVR was? How would you tweak the amp's gain if it wasn't within range of the GUI's adjustment range?

This is what the Dolby standard is all about. Just play a -20dB signal and adjust until it is 85dB SPL at your seat and you're all set. :) it could be at 1.85v or 2v it doesn't matter because the end result is the same, 85dB from a -20dB signal. ;)

I just recently purchased a set of speaker and an audio receiver i just adjusted the speakers reference level to 75dbs by using the receivers internal test tones. So now that that is done does anyone know the optimal volume level for movie playback? I sit about 11 feet back from my front speakers if that helps.

here is my equipment
yamaha htr-5860
klipsch f-2
c-2
s-2
sub-10

Well, I suppose ideally you could listen at reference level. But unless you have a heavily treated room and a system capable of that kind of SPL, and you're willing to damage your hearing over long periods of time, most people listen at a level they prefer.

Bottom line just make sure you're properly calibrated.

The 1.85v through to 85db is not just for the mixing stage, that is the standard. .SMPTE RP155
(-20dBFS = 0VU = +4 dBU or 1.23 Volts RMS)

Dialnorm metadata has been already described (above) "volume" normalization used by DD for ATSC broadcast, DVD disc, ect...

In theory dialnorm has zero impact on dynamic range, or perceptual noise floor. Dialnorm is determined by measuring the weighted average program (dialog) level over time. If measured and set correctly, pink noise @ -20 dBFS should produce 85 dBSPL. Most DVD's are set to -27 dBFS (aka - 4dB attenuation), as well as many OTA broadcast. Unfortunately broadcasters are just leaving their DD encoder set to it's default value ( -27) regardless of their actual programming level :mad:

Better have your remote in hand...when the volume level jumps +/- 15 dB or more!

Unfortunately broadcasters are just leaving their DD encoder set to it's default value ( -27) regardless of their actual programming level :mad:

Better have your remote in hand...when the volume level jumps +/- 15 dB or more!


Is it the fault of the broadcaster, or is it the fault of the content provider? Most broadcasters do not produce their own programming and commercials, so I assume that they just play everything the way it was mixed (AKA encoded for DD).

It could also be a mix of DD and non DD content, some content that was mixed with DD and the use of dialnorm, and other content that does not do so.

Is it the fault of the broadcaster, or is it the fault of the content provider? Both… I've worked in this industry for ~30 years now and the flux in program levels between “Network” and “Interstitials” is just laughable.

i.e. Ironically I worked for PBS, and not only is PBS network video benchmark quality, their baseband audio is SMPTE/AES compliant. Unfortunately the (WTVI) genius audio mixing engineer (Brent Kennedy) :D could not comprehend that those ones and zeros actually represent a calibrated reference/voltage after D/A. Anyway this genius used all of the 20dB peak headroom for his mix, which happened to be ~12 dB hotter than my calibrated network signal. One major problem is the obligatory digital PPM peak meter is useless. One needs a calibrated VU meter that has ballistic weighting for human perception.

WTVI / PBS Charlotte NC http://www.wtvi.org/about_production.cfm is a 29 market share $10 Million linear and non-linear HD production infrastructure, i.e. the audio production mixing console is a Studer D950.


AES SMPTE RP155 (-20dBFS = 0VU = +4dBu = 1.23V)
EBU R68 (-18dBFS = 0VU = 0 dBu = .775V)

dBV – Decibels relative to 1 Volt RMS.
dBm – Decibels relative to 1 mW (milliwatt).
dBu – Decibels relative to 0.775 Volts RMS.

Until “0” is defined, a given relative +/- magnitude is unknown. Here is an analogy,

Question: Is your wife good looking?
Answer: Compared to who?

Harrypt- I am not saying you are wrong. You are describing exactly how one should go about setting up a recording studio. Been there done that. Sound reproduction on end user equipment is just not as cut and dry.

Let's say you were using an AVR with the speakers connected directly to it. How could a normal person determine where 1.85v on the input before the amp section in the AVR was? How would you tweak the amp's gain if it wasn't within range of the GUI's adjustment range?

This is what the Dolby standard is all about. Just play a -20dB signal and adjust until it is 85dB SPL at your seat and you're all set. :) it could be at 1.85v or 2v it doesn't matter because the end result is the same, 85dB from a -20dB signal. ;)
In theory, yes. Problem is dialnorm is so poorly understood and implemented by many of the engineers that implement it that it is all over the place. So as I said before, if you tone to that, you are toning to a moving target. If you tone to proper raw tones, you start from a known position. Then if you are off cal in practical listening, you know it is because dialnorm was improperly set on that channel or in that situation. If you were off to begin with, the dialnorm error makes you further off. You never want to measure listening volume based on tones that are encoded or adjusted. Those adjustments should make differences to a calibrated raw tone.

In your living room, listen however you want. We are talking theory here and the absolute proper procedure. I'm off on a tangent due to being so rudely put off by such an incorrect reply. This whole discussion of dialnorm is ridiculous to the complaint of the OP.