Hey guys,
I am currently running a low hours M8500 for the past two years. I'm extremely happy with it but was wondering how much of an upgrade a G70 would be? Has anyone owned both? What would I get with the G70 that I don't with the Marquee?

If it's worth it, I figure I could get $1200 -$1,500 for my marquee with 1500 hours on it and put this towards a nice G70. It seems like G70s with lower hours are around $2000-$2500 mark. Does that seem about right and would it be worth the upgrade?

Thanks
Kev

Having spent a little time with my 8500 and a friend's G70, I have to say the G70 throws an incredible picture. Its controls are far more sophisticated than the Marquee's. Colors are gorgeous.

In fact colors are one area where Marquees are very deficient. I thought my 8500 looked flat and dead until I color-filtered it. You might want to consider getting some color-filtered lenses for your 8500 (PM me :)) -- the difference in colors is dramatic, and the focus is sharper. It's a much cheaper option than stepping up to a G70.

G70's have some definite advantages. But reliability and repair-ability is one area where the Marquee wins hands down. If something goes wrong with a G70, you may be stuck looking for parts. If something goes wrong with a Marquee, it's no big deal.

The two main differences would be that the G70 is LC, so ANSI will be improved. The other is that the g70 is filtered, so chromaticity will be better.

However, if I were to upgrade, I think that while these are nice improvements, I think far more significant would be moving to a 9 incher. So it really depends. You have to decide based on how important ANSI contrast and more accurate primaries are to you. You can achieve the latter by filtering your 8500, so it really comes down basically just to the liquid coupling. Is this a huge issue for you?

Otherwise, it may end up more of a lateral move if having an LC projector isn't important to you.

and gary also covers the repairability issue which is also something to consider.

The two main differences would be that the G70 is LC, so ANSI will be improved. The other is that the g70 is filtered, so chromaticity will be better.

I'd argue there is a third and forth difference.

third - The G70 will be sharper
fourth - The G70 will crush blacks less.

The other difference is repair-ability and parts availability as has been covered.

Dave

I would take the money you would spend to get the G-70 and apply it to get MP mods, no G-70 can touch that. Mike is using a 8500 AC in his theater and it easily does 1080p@72Hz. Show me a G-70 that can do that.

third - it will be sharper than a G-70
fourth - it will not crush blacks

I'd argue there is a third and forth difference.

third - The G70 will be sharper
fourth - The G70 will crush blacks less.

The other difference is repair-ability and parts availability as has been covered.

Dave
The difference in price that the OP is suggesting would also about pay for a set of MP mods (I think). I have seen an 8500 with version 2 MP Mods, but I haven't ever seen a G70, so don't know if they're comparable or not.

However, if one believed that the MP Mods would overcome the above objections to PQ, then that might also be a path to consider - improved PQ with repairability.

My 2 cents

JBJR, I dunno about an 8500 w/MP mods being sharper than a G70. I've only seen one G70 and it was set up by a newbie, but it was hella sharp. Maybe once I get new lenses on my 8500 I'll change my mind.

Re: crushing blacks -- do the MP mods resolve that? Because my stock 8500 sure crushed blacks before I put in Kim's gamma correction. See attached chart, the "before" measurements before I did grayscale & gamma. The low IREs are crushed badly.

I would take the money you would spend to get the G-70 and apply it to get MP mods, no G-70 can touch that. Mike is using a 8500 AC in his theater and it easily does 1080p@72Hz. Show me a G-70 that can do that.

third - it will be sharper than a G-70
fourth - it will not crush blacks

MP mods and 144/145 lenses and adapters will cost more than the difference between the two.

I've not seen Mike's in person so I have no opinion as to if and how much better than the G70 it would be so I don't know if the extra cost is worth it or not.

Dave

I've owned a G-70 from 0 hours and setup by Terry. With out a doubt I can tell you a MP moded 8500 will trounce a G-70. I've long since sold my G-70 and have nothing but Marquees now! 9500's and a 8500!

I was just at Mikes yesterday and what I saw was simply amazing, the inkie blacks, shadow detail to die for and no need for any gamma correction.

This 8500 will be at the BlendZilla meet to use as a refrence, so, some of the other will be able to cofirm this after the meet. They are in for some real eye candy!

I've owned a G-70 from 0 hours and setup by Terry. With out a doubt I can tell you a MP moded 8500 will trounce a G-70. I've long since sold my G-70 and have nothing but Marquees now! 9500's and a 8500!

Pretty impressive as I've never been impressed by stock marquees and I'd say a G70 easily trounces a stock marquee.

I've not got to see the latest marquee mods yet. The earlier ones certainly improved the quee, but I may have still opted for a G70. But the latest mods---hmmm.

Dave

How do MP mods overcome the inherent limitations of an Air Coupled projector?

How do MP mods overcome the inherent limitations of an Air Coupled projector?

Obvioulsy they don't. I assume the point is that everything else (focus, black level, shadow detail, etc) is better, thus the overall picture is better. I'm quite sure the halos would still be there because it is physically impossible to remove them.

Dave

Thanks for all the information guys!

It seems that those people who have seen both agree a G70 is an upgrade over a stock M8500 and those who have seen a MP modded Marquee give the edge to the M8500..

Now the big question, What are the MP mods? What does MP stand for, Who does the Mods? What's actually done? Is it board level stuff that can be accomplished by me on the stock boards or is it more involved than that? Are we talking a few hundred bucks or a bigger investment?

Thanks also for the comments on parts availability. I didnt realize G70 parts are in short supply. That makes a different.

Now the big question, What are the MP mods? What does MP stand for, Who does the Mods? What's actually done? Is it board level stuff that can be accomplished by me on the stock boards or is it more involved than that? Are we talking a few hundred bucks or a bigger investment?

Thanks also for the comments on parts availability. I didnt realize G70 parts are in short supply. That makes a different.

I'm MP, so that explains that part of the mods. The mods involve upgrading the VIM and three neck boards, which is the video chain. And in this process, we change out/add over 150 individual components.

Right now, we sort of have things on hold. Mainly because we're about to introduce a different version of the mods. And we're trying to make that happen and lower the cost at the same time. So for now, I can't get into pricing.

But if you can hold off, I'm bringing my 8500 (non LC) Ultra to the next blend meet next month. The wait would be worth it..

Ok MP.
Thanks for the response. I'm in no hurry at all. Excited to see what's coming.

I've owned a G-70 from 0 hours and setup by Terry. With out a doubt I can tell you a MP moded 8500 will trounce a G-70. I've long since sold my G-70 and have nothing but Marquees now!Veeerrry interesting. Thanks for clarifying your "credentials." :)

As Mark & Dave said, obviously the Sony still has the edge in LC. Can't do much about that unless you turn your 8500 into a 9500LC. And the G70 has much better/finer control over the picture than a Marquee.

But you're saying the MP mods make the 8500 as sharp as (sharper than??) a G70? What other improvements do you see besides sharpness? How else does it "trounce" the Sony?

This discussion makes MP's mods sound more interesting than I'd thought. I thought they were for hard-core videophiles, but there was no way I could justify them for myself. But if it made my 8500 look like a G70... with the durability, repairability, and parts availability of a Marquee, hmmmm....

JBJR, what about colors? A stock Marquee's colors are pretty anemic. I assume your 9500 has colored C-elements? What about your 8500?

One other thing that's bugged me since I got an 8500: phosphor grain. I could never use Guy Kuo's "grain focus" method with my XG because I basically couldn't SEE any grain. My brief exposure to a G70 and a Dwin HD700 indicates they're both similar. But the 8500's phosphor is so grainy I notice it from my viewing position, and my distance vision isn't all that sharp. I was at Dragan's house right after he painted a Goo screen, and he was complaining about how nasty and grainy the Goo looked -- until I pointed out it was the phosphor. :) Do the rest of you Marquee fans just learn to ignore it??

Gary, an XG, especially an Air Coupled XG should have VERY pronounced phosphur grain.

BTW, you can turn an 8500 into an 8600LC too, much cheaper than a 9500LC.

Well, *I* couldn't see it. Certainly not back where I was adjusting focus. Yeah, I know about 8500LCs, but they're rare enough I didn't want to confuse the issue. :)

stock Marquee's colors are pretty anemic. I assume your 9500 has colored C-elements? What about your 8500? the 8500 MP is using for all his latest screen shots and testing has the HD145's on it, they're sharper and haloing is greatly reduced.

One other thing that's bugged me since I got an 8500: phosphor grain. I could never use Guy Kuo's "grain focus" method with my XG because I basically couldn't SEE any grain. My brief exposure to a G70 and a Dwin HD700 indicates they're both similar. But the 8500's phosphor is so grainy I notice it from my viewing position, and my distance vision isn't all that sharp. I was at Dragan's house right after he painted a Goo screen, and he was complaining about how nasty and grainy the Goo looked -- until I pointed out it was the phosphor. :) yup, and I can tell you why = we're both using old OEM tubes. The Pannasonic tubes from the mid 90's have grainy phosphor. As a matter of fact it's so grainy it looks someone packed sand on the other side. The new tubes I buy from VDC are so much smoother it's a dramatic difference. If I get a chance, I'll take some close-up pics of old/new Phosphor surfaces with my camera and post them. Not tonight though, i'm really tired. :(

But the 8500's phosphor is so grainy I notice it from my viewing position, and my distance vision isn't all that sharp. I was at Dragan's house right after he painted a Goo screen, and he was complaining about how nasty and grainy the Goo looked -- until I pointed out it was the phosphor. :) Do the rest of you Marquee fans just learn to ignore it??


I have a goo screen.Up until yesterday on my 8110 I loved it.Now with the new Barco 909 I have on my ceiling I can't stand the goo screen anymore.
With the 909 showing twice the focus & detail of the picture, I now see every paint roller line.The 8110 never showed up these roller lines before.& now the texture stands out like a sore thumb.
Just shows that different CRT's do need different screens.

I'd argue there is a third and forth difference.

third - The G70 will be sharper
fourth - The G70 will crush blacks less.

The other difference is repair-ability and parts availability as has been covered.

Dave

The crushing blacks less is what I mean by higher ANSI CR. As for sharper, I don't know that that is true or of significance.

The crushing blacks less is what I mean by higher ANSI CR.

Huh? ANSI CR and crushed blacks are completely different things. ANSI CR is basically the ratio between IRE 0 and IRE 100 in a checkboard or "mixed" scene. The G70s is better because of LC.

Black crushing or the lack there of, is the ability to resolve shadow detail. It basically means, can you see IRE 2 and IRE 3 on the machine? I guess you could argue since you have to lift the brightness of a marquee to digital gray-black levels to get any shadow detail, you've killed both your sequential and ANSI CR, but that is a function of lack of shadow detail, not bad ANSI CR.

Oh, and as for sharper, every single newer P16 tubed machine I've seen is sharper than the 180 machines. And yes, G70s are noticeably sharper than Marquees.

Dave

Huh? ANSI CR and crushed blacks are completely different things. ANSI CR is basically the ratio between IRE 0 and IRE 100 in a checkboard or "mixed" scene. The G70s is better because of LC.

Black crushing or the lack there of, is the ability to resolve shadow detail. It basically means, can you see IRE 2 and IRE 3 on the machine? I guess you could argue since you have to lift the brightness of a marquee to digital gray-black levels to get any shadow detail, you've killed both your sequential and ANSI CR, but that is a function of lack of shadow detail, not bad ANSI CR.

Oh, and as for sharper, every single newer P16 tubed machine I've seen is sharper than the 180 machines. And yes, G70s are noticeably sharper than Marquees.

Dave


The Marquee 8110 was used by Vidikron, Taw and a few others. It has won awards at trade shows for its performance. Not one report ever mentioned any short coming that you post here.

The facts are, the 8110, which is non LC. has a much higher bandwidth video section than the G70. It has the exact same video chain as the 9500LC and Ultra's. And when you talk about crush blacks and shadow detail. If the video chain is not fast enough, LC or not, the blacks will be crushed. And that's because the video chain is not fast enough to keep up with the elements in shadow detail, therefore producing elevated blacks.


And I've seen quite a few G70's. And I've yet to see one that I would say produced a sharper image than what I've been seeing from the Marquees. Most G70's are later models than most 8500/8110's, and that may explain why you think a G70 is sharper.

My rear screen Mitsubishi has LC tubes in it. It's a plus, but it's not enough.

The Marquee 8110 was used by Vidikron, Taw and a few others. It has won awards at trade shows for its performance. Not one report ever mentioned any short coming that you post here.

The Marquees are also still in production with abundant parts and experienced techs almost everywhere, and that will mean something before very long.

And when you talk about crush blacks and shadow detail. If the video chain is not fast enough, LC or not, the blacks will be crushed. And that's because the video chain is not fast enough to keep up with the elements in shadow detail, therefore producing elevated blacks. Mike, the gamma measurements I posted above (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=79550) showed crushed blacks, and that was measured with static window patterns from DVE. (With corrections for the low-IRE errors in DVE.) Obviously that's not going to be affected by the speed of the video chain. (Right??) Why would you say a stock 8500 does that? Kim's gamma box can correct it, but it would be a lot better if it didn't need it.

Gary

What Gary said. I've seen several Marquees 8xxx and 9xxx. Everyone of them crushed blacks. Ridebreck got out of CRTs because his Marquee crushed blacks so bad he could not stand it. He could never get close to the shadow detail of my barco.

Everyone using Kim's gamma tcoder with a Marquee is doing 20 turns of adjustment or almost max. The guys using Barcos are doing 11 turns because they don't crush as bad.

Then there are Gary's measurements he posted. The good thing is it can be corrected--look at Gary's measurements after the kimcoder.

Dave

Mike, the gamma measurements I posted above (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=79550) showed crushed blacks, and that was measured with static window patterns from DVE. (With corrections for the low-IRE errors in DVE.) Obviously that's not going to be affected by the speed of the video chain. (Right??) Why would you say a stock 8500 does that? Kim's gamma box can correct it, but it would be a lot better if it didn't need it.

Gary

Are you saying your gamma test would be improved/corrected if you had LC lenses?

And I've seen quite a few G70's. And I've yet to see one that I would say produced a sharper image than what I've been seeing from the Marquees. Most G70's are later models than most 8500/8110's, and that may explain why you think a G70 is sharper.

Yes, the later models helps and most with Marquees are using 10+ year old ones. But are you talking about unmodded Marquees? If so, this is not my experience, but I've not seen as many marquees as you. Phil's lives not far from me and has a G70 and I've got my LC Barco with P16 tubes. Granted, all the Marquees I've seen were from before 1998, but none of the unmodded ones can touch the picture from either my Barco or Phil's G70. Just my experience. Version 3 mods in a marquee may kick the butt out of our PJs, but most marquees in their current state will not kick a G70s butt--that will take some convincing to get me to believe.

Dave

Are you saying your gamma test would be improved/corrected if you had LC lenses?

No he is not.

No he is not.


Ok, so that gets us back to this:

Obviously that's not going to be affected by the speed of the video chain. (Right??)
Gary

And to answer this question - Yes!

Seems to me the low-IRE crush that appears to be endemic in Marquees (and some other projectors, like the XG I used to own) is caused by incorrect gamma in the video amps. Or something like that.

Nope, it's also there in the Barcos and Sony's (quiet as it's kept). And as you indicated, it's due to the electronics. But that's different from what Dave said it was (LC).

(Sorry MP, I deleted my post to respond to the comments you posted while I was posting, but you posted again while I was editing. :) :))

Are you saying your gamma test would be improved/corrected if you had LC lenses??!?!?? No, I said nothing about LC lenses. LC will improve ANSI contrast but should have virtually no effect on the low-IRE tests I ran.

I said that my 8500, without any special changes or mods, but with the standard quick "set the color temp" adjustments, put out almost nothing at IRE 0-15 or so. Setting the color temp at IRE 30 and 80 produced very similar results. Look at the graph I posted and you'll see there's almost no emission at the low IREs. I added in Kim's gamma box, cranked almost to max as Dave said, defocused the blue to fix the blue hump, and got a near-perfect gamma=2.5 curve. The low IREs are still lower than they should be, but they're a lot better than they were without the gamma boost. See attached.

You said that your mods improve black crush because black crush is caused by a slow video chain. If you were talking about the 1-on/1-off SMTE pattern I could understand the "slow" comments -- in that test you're demanding max-speed on/off transitions. But what does that have to do with ordinary dark scenes that have large areas of low-IRE content? That shouldn't tax the video-chain speed.

Obviously that's not going to be affected by the speed of the video chain. (Right??) And to answer this question - Yes!?? Yes, it's NOT going to be affected? Or yes, an IRE-10 window pattern **DOES** tax the video-chain speed??

Assuming the latter -- Why? The video signal sits at IRE 0 for about 1/3 of the scanline, jumps up to IRE 10 for about 1/3 of the scanline, then back down to IRE 0. 2 transitions on the entire scanline, and zero change other than that. Limitations in the video chain could cause artifacts like e.g. ringing at the transitions, but in the center of the window pattern everything should be completely stabilized. So I'm completely mystified how speed could affect the low-IRE output in a window test pattern.

Seems to me the low-IRE crush that appears to be endemic in Marquees (and some other projectors, like the XG I used to own) is caused by incorrect gamma in the video amps. Or something like that.

Seems to me the low-IRE crush that appears to be endemic in Marquees (and some other projectors, like the XG I used to own) is caused by incorrect gamma in the video amps. Or something like that.

You keep speaking of the Marquee and NEC's. But the problem is in every stock CRT projector. It's not just a Marquee NEC problem. And to be honest with you, it's actually worse in the barco's.

However, on the Marquee's, it may be more obvious on some sets more than others.

And to prove my point on the barco's. They're using the same chip that one version of the marquee uses. And that chip is the main source of this problem..

oops, forgot. They're using two (2) of the same chips that the Marquee uses. And both are not the best for this...

Oh, let me add one more thing. I kept overlooking your gamma curve.

The gamma curve is not necessarily showing a defect in the video chain. It's showing a shortcoming of CRT technology. A scoped ramp pattern would show the linearity of the video chain, while a meter would show a similar test (gamma) of the projected image. Why the curve changes is beyond me, but for sure, it's not reflecting what's happening in the video chain.

What I mean when I refer to speed is when looking at the actual image for crushing. And that crushing could be the result of a many thing electronically. Noise in the video chain is one, and a non linear video chain is another. Also if the video chain is not switching fast enough, it can create a crushing effect. And that's also seen when there's a bandwidth bottle neck in the video chain, which can also cause the famous "streaking" problems - meaning that something in the circuits is not operating fast enough.

(Geeze you're hard to keep up with, Mike. You keep posting responses while I'm responding to your responses!! :))
You keep speaking of the Marquee and NEC's. But the problem is in every stock CRT projector. Maybe it's in every stock projector. All I know is what I've personally seen and measured. The XG and the 8500 crush blacks terribly. The G70 I measured didn't.

The attached image is from a friend's G70 before I touched anything, with just his self-admitted barely-knows-what-he's-doing setup. It has no external gamma correction on it. It's still a bit low in the low IREs, but nothing like the 8500.
The gamma curve is not necessarily showing a defect in the video chain. It's showing a shortcoming of CRT technology.No argument. But the resulting image is what we care about. The CRT has this bad gamma curve and it needs to be addressed. Kim's box can do it after the fact -- but it appears to me that some projectors do at least part of the job in the projector itself. The 8500 and XG (according to my measurements) don't, but the G70 and (according to Dave) the Barcos do, at least to some degree.

I know of a projector that has no crushed blacks or whites. It has no streaking or video noise of any kind. It's fairly quiet, quieter than most. It's a 9" LC and stands only 12.5 inches tall :D

Chip

Now the big question, What are the MP mods? What does MP stand for, Who does the Mods? What's actually done? Is it board level stuff that can be accomplished by me on the stock boards or is it more involved than that? Are we talking a few hundred bucks or a bigger investment?
38 posts and nobody mentioned Mike's website: www.MPmods.com

Kal

P.S. Mike: You could really put this in your signature! :)

All I know is what I've personally seen and measured. The XG and the 8500 crush blacks terribly. The G70 I measured didn't.

Measure an "s" series barco and it will be closer to the G70 than the Quee and XG. In fact, I wish you could do that with all of them--it would be pretty cool to have a guide to how much gamma correction needs to be applied with Kim's to each PJ. :)

Dave

If the video chain is not fast enough, LC or not, the blacks will be crushed. And that's because the video chain is not fast enough to keep up with the elements in shadow detail, therefore producing elevated blacks.

This makes no sense to me. If this were true, it would be impossible for Kim's box to fix the black crush since it does nothing to speed up the video chain in the PJ. But, since Kim's box does fix it as demonstrated by Gary's measurements, this cannot possibly be the reason the Quee crushes black.

Dave

This makes no sense to me. If this were true, it would be impossible for Kim's box to fix the black crush since it does nothing to speed up the video chain in the PJ. But, since Kim's box does fix it as demonstrated by Gary's measurements, this cannot possibly be the reason the Quee crushes black.

Dave

no, it does not "fix" the problem. What it does is modify the lower range of the black levels, by pushing them up. That's not a fix, because in video, the goal is a perfect (linear) ramp. And though you're seeing an improvement in the lower range, you're also compromising on other areas of the entire IRE range.

Because these projectors had computer graphics in mind. There are serious issues in the video chain that causes the pedestals and phase of the signals to not be the best for high performance video. When these two elements are not at it's best. That low end will be effected. And the other enemy to this is hash noise at the lower end, which also washes out that low end performance.

And since the gamma fix is the brain child of Scott (tse), I would rather refer to it as Scott's gamma fix (or solution).

My "Quee" does not crush blacks, nor am I using Scott's design to get great results.

The attached image is from aeonflux (HD-DVD), and it shows why I prefer the linear ramp..

http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/1545/hpim1526iu6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

btw, You don't need speed to get low end blacks (or produce perfect gamma curves). You need speed to bring out that background detail at higher scan rates.

I absolutely agree the gamma boost was Scott's invention, and I'm sure Kim would too. I just refer to it as Kim's box so people know the implementation I'm working with.

btw, You don't need speed to get low end blacks (or produce perfect gamma curves). You need speed to bring out that background detail at higher scan rates.Now that makes perfect sense. I would think you'd need speed to bring out detail at ANY IRE level. Speed in the video chain is how you do a good job on things like the SMTE pattern.

It would be very interesting to see a measurement (like the ones I posted) of an MP-modded Marquee without any external gamma boost. If the low IREs are as dark as they were in my unboosted Marquee, I would think the shadow details would be crushed no matter how fast the video chain is. Speed in handling the fine details doesn't help much if it's too dark to see.

It would be very interesting to see a measurement (like the ones I posted) of an MP-modded Marquee without any external gamma boost

Likewise, it would be interesting to see a screenshot of that aeonflux image from your marquee with "Scott's" fix.


If the low IREs are as dark as they were in my unboosted Marquee, I would think the shadow details would be crushed no matter how fast the video chain is. Speed in handling the fine details doesn't help much if it's too dark to see.

You're right. Speed cannot correct on something that can't be seen. However, what speed does is bring out the best of what can be seen. And having the ability to bring the image out of the black, without the ability to reveal all elements of that same image is not much of an improvement as well.

I deal with the electronics end of things. So I look at ramps and other patterns on scopes, etc. I don't trust most color meters for accurate measurement, mainly because there are too many things that can effect the true out come. And I've seen that when Ken Whitcomb came to Mark Haflich's with his super color meter. I remember him saying to me that he was able to get a very flat gamma curve from Mark's screen. And when I used my meter, I could never get it to read as Ken's did.

It would be very interesting to see a measurement (like the ones I posted) of an MP-modded Marquee without any external gamma boost. If the low IREs are as dark as they were in my unboosted Marquee, I would think the shadow details would be crushed no matter how fast the video chain is. Speed in handling the fine details doesn't help much if it's too dark to see.
I can do that, but I would like to get the HD-145's installed first. I'm actually using HTPC and Theatre Tek with Gamma control so I don't know ifthat's considered a "boost"? I'm also running an older V1 VIM and early V2 neck-cards so it's not the latest stuff but I know what a stock Marquee does with the low end and it's not very good. I think my black level detail is good, we can take a look at it tomorrow when you come over.

I can do that, but I would like to get the HD-145's installed first

The change to HD-145's will make a huge change to the lower end. It'll also greatly improve on the halo effects.

The stock HD-8's are terrible. And you'll not know they're that bad until you swap the lenses.

Huh? ANSI CR and crushed blacks are completely different things. ANSI CR is basically the ratio between IRE 0 and IRE 100 in a checkboard or "mixed" scene. The G70s is better because of LC.

Black crushing or the lack there of, is the ability to resolve shadow detail. It basically means, can you see IRE 2 and IRE 3 on the machine? I guess you could argue since you have to lift the brightness of a marquee to digital gray-black levels to get any shadow detail, you've killed both your sequential and ANSI CR, but that is a function of lack of shadow detail, not bad ANSI CR.

Oh, and as for sharper, every single newer P16 tubed machine I've seen is sharper than the 180 machines. And yes, G70s are noticeably sharper than Marquees.

Dave

The ability to resolve shadow detail depends heavily on ANSI CR. Obviously, an LC machine will be better able to resolve shadow detail because it has higher ANSI CR. This better maintains shadow detail in mixed scenes because there is less spill going on which would obscure that detail and reduce its visibility.

Higher ANSI CR naturally leads to a better ability to resolve shadow details, is all I am saying. And an LC machine obviously has higher ANSI CR, which of course leads to a better ability to resolve shadow detail compared with the equivalent AC machine.

They are very intimately related and are not completely different things at all. Certainly ANSI CR is not the sole thing that impacts shadow detail, but it is one of the most important, especially assuming a competent system setup so that other problems like gamma, source clipping, greyscale problems aren't negatively affecting shadow detail, in which case it's basically the major concern with regards to shadow detail.

I can do that, but I would like to get the HD-145's installed first. I'm actually using HTPC and Theatre Tek with Gamma control so I don't know ifthat's considered a "boost"? I'm also running an older V1 VIM and early V2 neck-cards so it's not the latest stuff but I know what a stock Marquee does with the low end and it's not very good. I think my black level detail is good, we can take a look at it tomorrow when you come over.

Can I come over and kibitz?

You know, it occurs to me -- the two projectors (of the three I've measured) that showed the worst crush were mine. With my video source. It's possible the Marquee and XG don't crush as badly as I thought, but my Momitsu **does**. I'll have to haul it over to Mark's HT and see how his G70 looks with my source. Meanwhile, hm, the Momitsu has a brightness control, maybe I need to crank that up and try measuring again...

Can I come over and kibitz?
abosultely, 9am we're swapping Gary's tubes/yokes followed by some ISF testing of my MP8500 with stock lenses. Then at 5PM Aubrey's coming over for a
Vinyl VS. CD shootout. might even squeeze in a movie in there somewhere. :)

. . . . Meanwhile, hm, the Momitsu has a brightness control, maybe I need to crank that up and try measuring again...

See, there you go again, got to twiddle, twiddle, twiddle!!!!

LOL
:)

You know, it occurs to me -- the two projectors (of the three I've measured) that showed the worst crush were mine. With my video source. It's possible the Marquee and XG don't crush as badly as I thought, but my Momitsu **does**. I'll have to haul it over to Mark's HT and see how his G70 looks with my source. Meanwhile, hm, the Momitsu has a brightness control, maybe I need to crank that up and try measuring again...

Have you tested your playback chain with full-range patterns to see if you're clipping? Looks to me like you're just clipping, there's no reason for the CRT to clip like that. I've never seen a Marquee do that by itself, and I've not played with NECs, but I wouldn't expect them to either, unless they had the G2 set wrong or somethign.

No, it's not clipping. I can see everything from 0 to 100 IRE -- at least if I boost the brightness a bit. It's just that the low IREs are darker than they should be.