I would love to get this sub http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-2-mk3.html but this one suits me more space wise http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Boston-Acoustics-12-Subwoofer-XB6/sem/rpsm/oid/159480/catOid/-16883/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do If I go with the BA sub will I miss the extra 11Hz or will I even know they are gone since I am using a HTiB? Both of these are in my price range of $500.

Yes, you will miss the 11hz difference in frequency response, as well as the additional power of the Hsu. It's no contest if you have the room to fit the Hsu.

Tim

The HSU will walk all over the Boston. Not even close.

remember when brand names show specs with the LF limit around 29Hz,the sub will be weak even at 31.5Hz when pushed.

The HSU will demolish the Boston in deep bass performance.

Will you miss the extra depth...YES. I would

I took my tiny Paradigm UltraCube 10 and played a few radom bass heavy tracks...yeah fine. And switched to a Seismic 12.... OH much better...and then to the Revel B15...oh even better almost efortless...and finally to my f113....NOW WE TALK.

So yes you better get the HSU and not even look back,that is if you care about subsonics at all. ;)

remember when brand names show specs with the LF limit around 29Hz,the sub will be weak even at 31.5Hz when pushed.

This is a good point, plus 29Hz is what the BA rated it at, and most big name companies have a tendency to exaggerate their products frequency response. And your room will also make a difference, but its possible that sub might only go down to 32-35 HZ and wont play very loudly in that region either. HSU subs have a much better rep for playing as low as the claim and doing it with authority as well.

Something to remember is that we hear logarithmicly. That means that the difference between 20-40Hz is the same to our ears as the difference between 2000-4000Hz.

Each doubling in frequency is one octave difference. So A1 is 440Hz, A2 is 880Hz and so on. Well, that means that the lower the frequency, the more each Hz matters. If you are talking about the difference between 20,000Hz and 20,010Hz, well there is essentially no difference. It'd take a trained ear to hear the shift that small. However the difference between 30Hz and 20Hz is half an octave. That's not insignificant.

Something to remember is that we hear logarithmicly. That means that the difference between 20-40Hz is the same to our ears as the difference between 2000-4000Hz.

Each doubling in frequency is one octave difference. So A1 is 440Hz, A2 is 880Hz and so on. Well, that means that the lower the frequency, the more each Hz matters. If you are talking about the difference between 20,000Hz and 20,010Hz, well there is essentially no difference. It'd take a trained ear to hear the shift that small. However the difference between 30Hz and 20Hz is half an octave. That's not insignificant.

Please be aware that the logarithmic nature of the human ear is in regards to level, not frequency.

Something to remember is that we hear logarithmicly. That means that the difference between 20-40Hz is the same to our ears as the difference between 2000-4000Hz.

Each doubling in frequency is one octave difference. So A1 is 440Hz, A2 is 880Hz and so on. Well, that means that the lower the frequency, the more each Hz matters. If you are talking about the difference between 20,000Hz and 20,010Hz, well there is essentially no difference. It'd take a trained ear to hear the shift that small. However the difference between 30Hz and 20Hz is half an octave. That's not insignificant.

To elaborate on sound level being logarithmic and not frequency: Going from 20 db to 30db is twice as loud, just as going from 130 db to 140 db is twice as loud. Each 10 db doubles the volume. Frequency doesn't work the same way.

Dude....you are not getting 11hz with EITHER of those subwoofers.

To get that you need to look at maybe the HSU HO or the SVS 16-46+ that I have, or the new SVS Ultra...

Dude....you are not getting 11hz with EITHER of those subwoofers.

To get that you need to look at maybe the HSU HO or the SVS 16-46+ that I have, or the new SVS Ultra...

I think you were mis-understanding his question...
He's not looking to hit 11hz, its whats missing from 1 sub to the next...

18hz from the HSU to the 29hz of the POS - I mean the Boston Acoustic.. :)

Get the HSU... :)

Well, it looks like it all been said already. But the HSU and the Boston are like night and day. You WILL miss the 11hz and a ton of other things by going with the Boston over the HSU. What size room do you have? If it's a financial thing, you may have other options depending on your room size.

I think the gap in the low frequency extension between the two is much larger than 11hz.

Get the Hsu.

Shoot, the 10" STF-2 will walk all over that Boston, and for $130 less. The STF-1 will keep right up with it for $230 less!

Sycraft seems to be making a reasonable point to me. The perceived difference between 20Hz and 40Hz is the same as the perceived difference between 2000Hz and 4000Hz. If you measure perceived frequency in octaves, then perception is like the log of frequency in Hz: there's 1 octave per doubling of frequency in Hz.

The bottom line is that missing 10Hz at the low end of the spectrum is a huge gap.

OOPS

LOL

Sorry.

Well the HSU would get my vote hands down between those 2 subs...

Well, it looks like it all been said already. But the HSU and the Boston are like night and day. You WILL miss the 11hz and a ton of other things by going with the Boston over the HSU. What size room do you have? If it's a financial thing, you may have other options depending on your room size.


Actually the difference in prince is minimal less than $50 plus shipping cost. My room is 13 ft wide and 19 ft long with 8 ft ceilings it has a door to the outside and 2 archways one to the dining room and another one to a stairway. It sounds stupid but one of the deciding factors may be the few inches larger that the HSU is. The room is an acoustical nightmare because it has solid plaster walls and hardwood floors and 3 windows hung side by side by side.

I was just wondering if you would miss what you had never heard?

Actually the difference in prince is minimal less than $50 plus shipping cost. My room is 13 ft wide and 19 ft long with 8 ft ceilings it has a door to the outside and 2 archways one to the dining room and another one to a stairway. It sounds stupid but one of the deciding factors may be the few inches larger that the HSU is. The room is an acoustical nightmare because it has solid plaster walls and hardwood floors and 3 windows hung side by side by side.

I was just wondering if you would miss what you had never heard?

That's a decent size room. I have a PSB subsonic 6i in my 14x21 room, so you may even want to look at some twelve inchers. The HSU is really a much better sub than the Boston. Another option for a 10 incher would be the SVS PB10NSD. AV123 also has a great sub in that price range. I'm not trashing the Boston but buying factory direct in this price range will give you a huge bang for your buck.

I just saw that your room opens up into other rooms, you really may want to consider a 12 inch sub. Is this sub being mated with bookshelfs or towers? If they're towers how low do they extend to?

Well I am in the middle of trashing a HTiB setup. That is if the wife doesn't throw me out first. I am looking really hard at the Klipsch RB 61's aas fronts and maybe even a center channel. I say center channel because I have been in contact with reps from Klipsch and they say it (3rd bookshelf on it's side yes I know that is a different can of worms) can be used as a center channel. Due to space constrictions only the smaller RC 52 (I think) will work as a center but the RB 61 will work better since the 52 is "lacking" (according to a forum member on the Klipsch site). Here is a link to the speakers http://www.klipsch.com/products/details/rb-61.aspx Hope this helps!

Well I am in the middle of trashing a HTiB setup. That is if the wife doesn't throw me out first. I am looking really hard at the Klipsch RB 61's aas fronts and maybe even a center channel. I say center channel because I have been in contact with reps from Klipsch and they say it (3rd bookshelf on it's side yes I know that is a different can of worms) can be used as a center channel. Due to space constrictions only the smaller RC 52 (I think) will work as a center but the RB 61 will work better since the 52 is "lacking" (according to a forum member on the Klipsch site). Here is a link to the speakers http://www.klipsch.com/products/details/rb-61.aspx Hope this helps!

Klipsch makes good bookshelfs, but I'm really going to have to recommend a 12 inch sub in a room of your size being mated with bookshelf speakers. Perhaps you should look at; SVS PB12NSD or the PSB Subsonic 6i ($499 online). Those are two good subs under $600.00. If you're feeling really froggy go with the HSU VTF-3 MKII (tell your wife it's a coffee table that just so happens to pump out earth shattering bass) :D

Nobody is mentioning it, but there is more than just extension, there is sound quality. IMHO, unless Boston Acoustics has improved the the sound quality of the their subs in the past few years, they will not hold a candle to the HSU subs. The older Boston Subs had very poor tonality and perceived tightness, basically just making a big thud.

For my money, it is a no brainer, made room and go with the HSU.

The logarithmic nature of the ear is in all regards, frequency and amplitude. You need only to take a look at a mapping of musical notes to frequencies to see that. You can also look at the way a brass-wind instrument generates sound.

Take a trombone for example, since it has a very large range, and since I play it and know how it works. The way you set the fundamental frequency you want to play is by adjusting the length of the instrument (with the slide) and then setting your lips to determine how many times the sound wave vibrates as it goes through the instrument. These levels are called partials.

Now if you play on the first partial, which is one compression along the whole instrument, and thus a very low sound, with the slide all the way in you are playing a B flat. Switch to the second partial, and you are still playing a B flat. Why? You doubled the frequency, thus went one octave up. However if you jump to the third partial, you aren't playing a B flat anymore, now you are playing an F. You didn't jump a whole octave. You need to go to the fourth partial for that which has again doubled the frequency since now the wave is vibrating 4 times before leaving the instrument.

We hear in logarithms, that's just how it works. Doesn't matter if your are talking amplitude or frequency.

The practical upshot in terms of frequency is that the lower the frequency range, the more each Hz matters. 11Hz at the high end of the spectrum is nothing. Speakers don't even spec that precise, they'll list accurate to 1kHz at most because they know you can't tell the difference between something that tops out at 22000Hz and something that tops out at 21990Hz. However 11Hz in bass is huge, like I said, 20-30Hz is one half an octave.

"Please be aware that the logarithmic nature of the human ear is in regards to level, not frequency."

"The logarithmic nature of the ear is in all regards, frequency and amplitude."

Exactly, which is why they divide music into octaves in the first place; the bandwidth in Hz of each successive increases logarithmically.

Our eyes respond logarithmically as well.

get the hsu, you are paying money for upgrading, make an upgrade, not a side-step.

Lets just say that if you get the BA, you will be like "im kinda happy, but i wonder what 20-29hz is like?"

With the HSU, you will be like " :eek: :D :cool: :) "

If you have the funds, and the space, i think the choice is crystal clear.

Lets just say that if you get the BA, you will be like "im kinda happy, but i wonder what 20-29hz is like?" listen to Jonomega. After spending money the only thing worse than buyers remorse is having to say "would have, could have, should have".

With the Hsu you'll never have to wonder, you'll know the minute you fire it up by the poop eating grin on your face. It looks like this :D

If it's possible that the deciding factor might come down to keeping size minimal, you might also want to check out the SVS cylinder subs. They are, in general, smaller than typical box subs in terms of floor space occupied. Of course, WAF might come into play with these as they are different-looking animals.

http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-cyl.cfm

The SVS and HSU brands are generally regarded as roughly equal in performance. I hope the new SVS Ultras change this, though... :D

Equal in performance? Not if you look at Craigsub's testing and comments regarding sound quality.

SVS vs HSU

Uh oh, this might get ugly.

That is not my intention is a this vs. that thread. I just wanted to know if I went with a sub that went down to 29Hz would I miss the deep bass of the 18Hz due to space size (limits) for the sub.

Sorry EM3 I couldn't resist after EcceCapsa's "equal" comment. If you'd like, in the interest of peace I'll remove my comment.

There's a reason for using words like "roughly" and "generally." I wasn't trying to make any concrete judgements, thanks.

Sorry EM3 I couldn't resist after EcceCapsa's "equal" comment. If you'd like, in the interest of peace I'll remove my comment.

No actually it's all good. I've got some sood feedback in this thread.

Sorry to revive this topic, but it's something I've been wondering about lately. My $300 JBLs120pII goes down to 27hz. Let's put issues like the quality of bass aside here for a second. As someone who watches 90% HDTV (rarely listen to music, rarely sit down to watch an entire movie) am I really missing that much by not having extension down to 18-20hz? I watch actions shows like 24, Lost, and Heroes -- do even those shows feature terribly low bass? And even when talking about movies, how many movies really feature bass below 25hz? 15%? And of that percentage, how many feature such bass for more than three or four scenes? And of those few scenes, how often does that bass last for more than a few seconds?

To sum up -- I sometimes fantasize about selling off my sub and bringing in a $600 HSU or SVS, just to hit those magical sub-20hz frequencies. I'm not going to do that any time soon either way, but really, keeping in mind my listening habits, would I be throwing that money away for the sake of a few cumulative minutes of awesome subsonic bass in movies I'll probably rarely watch?

Sorry to revive this topic, but it's something I've been wondering about lately. My $300 JBLs120pII goes down to 27hz. Let's put issues like the quality of bass aside here for a second. As someone who watches 90% HDTV (rarely listen to music, rarely sit down to watch an entire movie) am I really missing that much by not having extension down to 18-20hz? I watch actions shows like 24, Lost, and Heroes -- do even those shows feature terribly low bass? And even when talking about movies, how many movies really feature bass below 25hz? 15%? And of that percentage, how many feature such bass for more than three or four scenes? And of those few scenes, how often does that bass last for more than a few seconds?

To sum up -- I sometimes fantasize about selling off my sub and bringing in a $600 HSU or SVS, just to hit those magical sub-20hz frequencies. I'm not going to do that any time soon either way, but really, keeping in mind my listening habits, would I be throwing that money away for the sake of a few cumulative minutes of awesome subsonic bass in movies I'll probably rarely watch?

You with the material you view are not missing much if anything. I don't know why, but most TV productions don't seem to make much use of the LFE channel. Many big screen movies shown on HBO, SHOW, STRZ, etc. do have some impressive low stuff, however.

TV productions don't use it because most people's TVs suck. That's just life. A large portion still get analogue cable. I don't know how well low frequencies come over that. Remember we are talking like 100 channels of video and audio multiplexed on to a single wire. Then there's the fact that most people have crap sound. It never ceases to amaze me. I am one of five people I know in person with an HDTV. Of those, I'm the only one that has a surround sound system hooked to it. The rest use the included speakers.

It boggles the mind, but a great many people aren't concerned with good sound. Thus TV shows don't worry so much about it. Movies have it since they are mixed for the theatre and you get that mix on the DVD. Thus if you have a good setup, you can enjoy it, if not, the DVD player will handle the compression to make it sound fine on two tiny TV speakers.

Thanks for the informative responses. I have noticed a pretty big difference in bass presence between say, Lost (even when there are explosions) and DVDs. I don't have any premium channels unfortunately, but the other day I caught Chronicles of Riddick on TNTHD. The LFE on that was pretty astounding. I watched it for a bit just to hear and feel those airships and weird sonic guns. But soon I found myself inevitably thinking "Do I really want to watch a Vin Diesel movie?" and turned it off, which is kinda my point.

Be careful about hanging around here! Pretty soon you could find yourself watching some piss-poor movies just for the bass track. And I am talking from first-hand experience! :D

Be careful about hanging around here! Pretty soon you could find yourself watching some piss-poor movies just for the bass track. And I am talking from first-hand experience! :D

doH! :o :D :cool:

Be careful about hanging around here! Pretty soon you could find yourself watching some piss-poor movies just for the bass track. And I am talking from first-hand experience! :D

Aint that the truth... I bet a thread could go pretty long on just that info alone...

Sounds like a good one to me... and Off I go....

Oh, thanks for the warning, Mike, but it's already begun for me. Only the power of Vin Diesel made me stop and question what movies I've started "watching"!

That Vin-man is certainly no Steven Seagal. :p :rolleyes: :p

Seagal has got him beat by a "hair". :D

That Vin-man is certainly no Steven Seagal. :p :rolleyes: :p

Seagal has got him beat by a "hair". :D

At least Vince gets 'hit' in his movies, no one EVER lays a hand on Seagal in any of his movies :rolleyes:

Be careful about hanging around here! Pretty soon you could find yourself watching some piss-poor movies just for the bass track. And I am talking from first-hand experience! :D

Yeah, and what this rebuying movies you already own in standard DVD. Not going to do that any more.....that is unless one comes out I really want. :o

At least Vince gets 'hit' in his movies, no one EVER lays a hand on Seagal in any of his movies :rolleyes:This is because Steven Seagal moves so fast that he couldn't let anyone touch him even if he wanted to, you understand. It's not his fault he was born an unstoppable fighting machine!

This is because Steven Seagal moves so fast that he couldn't let anyone touch him even if he wanted to, you understand. It's not his fault he was born an unstoppable fighting machine!

Is that you Steven???????? :eek: :eek: :eek:

remember when brand names show specs with the LF limit around 29Hz,the sub will be weak even at 31.5Hz when pushed.

The HSU will demolish the Boston in deep bass performance.

Will you miss the extra depth...YES. I would

I took my tiny Paradigm UltraCube 10 and played a few radom bass heavy tracks...yeah fine. And switched to a Seismic 12.... OH much better...and then to the Revel B15...oh even better almost efortless...and finally to my f113....NOW WE TALK.

So yes you better get the HSU and not even look back,that is if you care about subsonics at all. ;)

Pleas tell me what a F113 is, who makes that one?

Pleas tell me what a F113 is, who makes that one?
http://home.jlaudio.com/products_subs.php?prod_id=371

Wow some threads never die and I thought it had faded in the darkness. Anyway I never got to buy the sub because the damn roof started leaking in May. Roof is fixed and now I'm back to saving money for the sub and speakers again. The wife wants to add on to the deck but she has money coming in for that.

EM3 - don't know about the HSU in particular, but upgrading to a real sub is an enlightening experience. Do it. Trust me, I just discovered "the truth". :)

EM3 - don't know about the HSU in particular, but upgrading to a real sub is an enlightening experience. Do it. Trust me, I just discovered "the truth". :)
I agree. I had a 10" sub I thought was good. Then I got a real sub.

The difference is amazing.

EM3, as has been stated, get the HSU.

to EM3 and KIDMONGO, you will notice the last 10-15hz much more than you realize.

My buddy has the sp120II and I have listened to it quite a lot. It really is one of the better if not the best sub one could get at Best Buy. It has a prett good sound and does a decent job of shaking things up a bit. However, I notice some distinct differences between the sound it makes on bass heay scenes and what I experience at home. The classic Darla scene on NEMO was our test scene. His sounds like a boom, mine (pb12+2) feels like you are in the tank.

There is a ton of tactile effect in the deep bass scenes. There is a lot more bass down there then you think as well. Try watching one of those shows with your sub off you will be shocked at what is there--watching anything with a sub that rolls off at 30hz is a similar, not quite as drastic, experience for someone who is used to having those last 10-15hz. It is not as much a sonic difference as much as a sensation of "something is missing."

Those last frequencies form a foundation of sound for notes above that. A scene that has a lot of 30hz stuff in it sounds different through a sub that is pushed to the max to dip that low, than one that isn't even breaking a sweat. There a fundamentals below the 30hz that add weight to the sound. It is similar with higher frequencies--try it at home with your system. if you have test sweeps, turn your crossover off and play your mains large--then play the same sweep through your sub. the notes from 150-50hz will sound different from the sub than the mains--same principal.

Mongo Now specifically wathcing tv shows--save your money and keep you rather capable sub you currently have.

Well I am in the middle of trashing a HTiB setup. That is if the wife doesn't throw me out first. I am looking really hard at the Klipsch RB 61's aas fronts and maybe even a center channel. I say center channel because I have been in contact with reps from Klipsch and they say it (3rd bookshelf on it's side yes I know that is a different can of worms) can be used as a center channel. Due to space constrictions only the smaller RC 52 (I think) will work as a center but the RB 61 will work better since the 52 is "lacking" (according to a forum member on the Klipsch site). Here is a link to the speakers http://www.klipsch.com/products/details/rb-61.aspx Hope this helps!

EEK! :eek: Do NOT turn the Klipsch bookshelf speaker on it's side...you'll have LOUSY dispersion and very very funky sound. The Tactrix horn is specifically designed to work in its' configuration and has limited vertical dispersion (horizontal dispersion if you turn it sideways).

The RB-61 is a kick butt speaker for the price and I sell a lot of them (fully authorized Klipsch dealer) but no way, no how would I ever recommend one of my clients put one of the bookshelf speakers on the side. The RC-52 doesn't have quite the dynamics of the RC-62 but placed properly it will sound a LOT better than an RB-61 on its' side (and yes...I have tried it...took about 1 minute to turn it back upright).

EEK! :eek: Do NOT turn the Klipsch bookshelf speaker on it's side...you'll have LOUSY dispersion and very very funky sound. The Tactrix horn is specifically designed to work in its' configuration and has limited vertical dispersion (horizontal dispersion if you turn it sideways).

The RB-61 is a kick butt speaker for the price and I sell a lot of them (fully authorized Klipsch dealer) but no way, no how would I ever recommend one of my clients put one of the bookshelf speakers on the side. The RC-52 doesn't have quite the dynamics of the RC-62 but placed properly it will sound a LOT better than an RB-61 on its' side (and yes...I have tried it...took about 1 minute to turn it back upright).

Well my dealer says that he can only get the RB 61's in pair so a single is out and has a "NO RETURN" policy. The other nearest dealer is 3 and 1/2 hrs to 4hrs away in Va. The RC 52 and 62 are out because my shelf won't hold one and building a shelf is not an option. WAF! I would modify the tv stand but it's glass and wood.

What are your thoughts on the RC 10 for movies?

I measured last night the the SVS PB-10NSD fits my area anything else is a no go. At least that decission has been made for me.