I'm very pleased with the general performance of my subwoofers (dual Velodyne HGS-15s with SMS-1). The only thing lacking is their ability to go really deep with much SPL. I'm good and flat to around 22hz but then 3dbs down at 19hz, then get a fairly steep rolloff.

I'd like to pick up where the Velodynes leaves off.

Is there a particular HSU sub (or other brand) that would work particulary well in augmenting my existing system. Ideally, something where I can set the crossover to around 20hz. Should I expect phase problems?

An Hsu HO or 3.3 in 16Hz tune will give you the bass below 22 Hz you're looking for. Using the BFD and placement I've been able to get mine nearly flat to 11Hz in my 13 x 24 x 7.4" sealed room. It's taken a lot of work finding the right placement and filters, but it's nearly flat from 80Hz to 11Hz.

Thanks for responding.

Which of the two do you have and how low will the crossover go?

I'm no Velodyne expert, but I don't see why those HG-15s can't get down to the mid teens. Have you experimented with different placement? Their specs would seem to indicate that they should reach much deeper.

My friend...the SVS 16-46+ was built for exacly what you are looking for. It is tuned to 16hz with triple 3 inch ports open. You can even switch the tune to 12hz mode with two ports open.

I own one and trust me...it can dig deep and it remains flat too!!!

I'm very pleased with the general performance of my subwoofers (dual Velodyne HGS-15s with SMS-1). The only thing lacking is their ability to go really deep with much SPL. I'm good and flat to around 22hz but then 3dbs down at 19hz, then get a fairly steep rolloff.

I'd like to pick up where the Velodynes leaves off.

Is there a particular HSU sub (or other brand) that would work particulary well in augmenting my existing system. Ideally, something where I can set the crossover to around 20hz. Should I expect phase problems?

I would try to move up to DD-18s if you can swing the fundage. You would have your better low end and built-in SMS. You can often find them used for well under $2500 if you are patient.

So you are saying a single DD-18 would be $2500 USED.

I'd rather have THREE Brand New 16-46+ ($2700) and put them in one corner

OR

DUAL PB-Ultra 13's ($2800) stacked in a corner


:D

You have a lot of good options depending upon budget. Like bgillyjcu, I have a SVS 16-46 PC+. I also have an SMS-1, and can verify the 16-46 is flat down to the 15Hz limit of the SMS-1 display.

So you are saying a single DD-18 would be $2500 USED.

I'd rather have THREE Brand New 16-46+ ($2700) and put them in one corner

OR

DUAL PB-Ultra 13's ($2800) stacked in a corner


:D

Well bg, that's what makes the world go round. SVS/HSU is not the answer to everyone's needs or requirements. Definitely less costly though, no question there. He may be after high SQ as well as quantity on the low end....

Thanks for responding.

Which of the two do you have and how low will the crossover go?I have an HO w/turbo, and the subs crossover goes down to 30Hz so you would need to put an external crossover in between the HO and your pre/pro or receiver. If you want the HSG's handling from say 22Hz up and the HO handling from 22Hz down just split the sub out from the pre/pro or receiver 3 ways and put an external crossover set at 22Hz in between the HO and the pre/pre or receiver. If you daisy chain off the HSGs just dasily chain the HO off those with the external crossover in between. This is assuming you're using the crossovers from the subs and not the pre/pro or receiver.

jpmst3,

I've heard the DD-18s and I couldn't tell that they went any lower than my HGSs. Actually, I thought my HGSs sound better. Probably another bad demo. F113s would be a possiblity if they sound as good as everyone is saying. But $6K-ish for that 22hz on down range when I'm very pleased with my current subs do is kinda pricey.

By the way, my room is something like 7,000 cubic feet and has openings into other rooms.

jpmst3,

I've heard the DD-18s and I couldn't tell that they went any lower than my HGSs. Actually, I thought my HGSs sound better. Probably another bad demo. F113s would be a possiblity if they sound as good as everyone is saying. But $6K-ish for that 22hz on down range when I'm very pleased with my current subs do is kinda pricey.

By the way, my room is something like 7,000 cubic feet and has openings into other rooms.


7000 cubic feet open.....that alone makes anything below 20hz very very hard to do...

I guess I don't really know what you are willing to spend. Are you looking for a $100 0 fix, or are you willing to spend 2000-3000 more?

Well bg, that's what makes the world go round. SVS/HSU is not the answer to everyone's needs or requirements. Definitely less costly though, no question there. He may be after high SQ as well as quantity on the low end....


This talk about "high SQ"

Is the DD-18 and the JL 113 THAT MUCH BETTER in the SQ department ?

And what is your defintion of better SQ??

7000 cubic feet open.....that alone makes anything below 20hz very very hard to do...

I guess I don't really know what you are willing to spend. Are you looking for a $100 0 fix, or are you willing to spend 2000-3000 more?

I didn't want to go above $1K including crossovers, etc.

Why is it harder to do low frequencies in larger rooms? Seem like it would be easier as you wouldn't have air resistance to the driver movement. I can see how you wouldn't have the compression.

I'm another surprised you aren't getting flat response from somewhere in the teens with the HGSs. Have you pinged Velo for suggestions? It is what it is, I'm sure, but the DD15 gets down to 15hz...I'm surprised the HGS is hitting a wall.

That, Ron, would be my thought too.

Jim, here is a suggestion. If you want to get some low-tuned sub like the SVS or the HSU, go ahead and do so and forget all about the crossover at 20 hz. Simple use your SMS-1 to EQ down everything above 20-25hz or so for that sub. Voila, pseudo crossover! And most likely, go for a corner.

jpmst3,

I've heard the DD-18s and I couldn't tell that they went any lower than my HGSs. Actually, I thought my HGSs sound better. Probably another bad demo. F113s would be a possiblity if they sound as good as everyone is saying. But $6K-ish for that 22hz on down range when I'm very pleased with my current subs do is kinda pricey.

By the way, my room is something like 7,000 cubic feet and has openings into other rooms.

Hmmm, well I suspect that was the case with the demo.

The DDs have a much more accurate servo mechanism and slightly improved driver. See the John E. Johnson review for his lab tests. Even in a 7000 cube room, two of them should dig plenty deep, say 15Hz with authority. Of course, it is difficult to beat the large ported subs in output, but there is a reason that Velo does not make large ported subs. ;)
The F113s sound just as good as the DDs, in fact some would say slightly better. The street price on those is < $2500 new a piece if that helps. You may want to try one first.

For example, two HGS-15s is probably not much more more output than a DD-18. One JL is probably easily more output than the two HGS15s, especially below 25 Hz for sure. I would see if you could possibly audition ONE and see if that is enough, it just may be....

Ron,

I'm taking readings off a SMS-1. Assuming that its accurate, each HGS-15 has the same slope when located in the same position. Since theyr'e not co located, their actual response is a bit different.

Next month I'll be in the Washington D.C. area where I'll be able to audition F112, F113. It'll be interesting to hear any difference in their system versus mine. Maybe someone can suggest material I can take with me that will show off what these extra low frequencies are about.

This talk about "high SQ"

Is the DD-18 and the JL 113 THAT MUCH BETTER in the SQ department ?

And what is your defintion of better SQ??

All I can tell you that you may want/need to hear more than just what you have to make that determination for yourself. There are reasons that JL and Velo do not make large ported subs.

I am not knocking them, I have owned a half dozen SVS subs, they are very good. However, again, they are not the end all be all for every listener. I would take a high powered sealed sub over them anyday, in fact I did. If you ever get a chance to audition the JL113 in your home, do it, you will at least know if you are missing anything and have something to compare to, better or worse.

I didn't want to go above $1K including crossovers, etc.

Why is it harder to do low frequencies in larger rooms? Seem like it would be easier as you wouldn't have air resistance to the driver movement. I can see how you wouldn't have the compression.

Jim, the lower you go the harder it is to pressurize the larger space.

In subwoofer terms, for each octave lower you go it takes 2X the excursion and 4X the power to produce the same db. In addition, the lower the octave the less sensitivity to bass from the human ear.

Here's a jpg of my frequency response. Am I missing something?


Something's not right. Hang on. I'll go take some other pictures.

Here's a jpg of my frequency response. Am I missing something?

Jim, that does not make sense. You should have a very smooth roll off well below 20 Hz. That roll off is happening all the way up at 25Hz!

There is a filter in place somewhere in your system, either on the HGSs themselves or in the SMS and/or receiver/pre-amp.

Here's a jpg of the wide band pink noise generated by my B&K reference 50.

Obviously there is something wrong. The two .jpgs are too much different for there to not be a filter or something in the signal chain.

I have the outputs of the SMS-1 that sends the frequency sweep signal tone going into the "CD" input of the Ref 50. I'm going to move the signal cable to another input and see if that matters.

Here's a jpg of the wide band pink noise generated by my B&K reference 50.

Obviously there is something wrong. The two .jpgs are too much different for there to not be a filter or something in the signal chain.

I have the outputs of the SMS-1 that sends the frequency sweep signal tone going into the "CD" input of the Ref 50. I'm going to move the signal cable to another input and see if that matters.

That graph looks a lot more like it. That is the type of response you should be getting from the twin HGSs.

I'm very pleased with the general performance of my subwoofers (dual Velodyne HGS-15s with SMS-1). The only thing lacking is their ability to go really deep with much SPL. I'm good and flat to around 22hz but then 3dbs down at 19hz, then get a fairly steep rolloff.

I'd like to pick up where the Velodynes leaves off.

Is there a particular HSU sub (or other brand) that would work particulary well in augmenting my existing system. Ideally, something where I can set the crossover to around 20hz. Should I expect phase problems?we need to define the fairly steep rolloff with numbers...if you are 3 dB down in-room then it looks like you need a vented solution.

*edit ...i see you have some issues...good luck, M

It doesn't appear that the difference in frequency response curves are input related.

I'll check with Velodyne to see what they have to say. I'm wondering if the signal generator on the SMS 1 is somehow causing this falloff.

do you have a computer nearby? maybe you can run REQW's sine sweep to see how that compares...

Why not place the SMS-1 mic nearfield to one of the HGS-15s to try and remove some of the room effect?

The HGS-15 should be able to dig deeper than you are showing. Maybe you are suffering some kind of suckout to cause that steep a dip.

By the way, you cannot really use the SMS-1 graph to plot the response generated by anything other than its own internal sine wave sweep. The input side of the SMS-1 incorporates a tracking filter which keeps step with the sine sweep generator. This makes it most sensitive to the frequency it is expecting to "hear" but the filter is of very shallow slope meaning it is taking input from a band of frequencies either side of the one it is currently plotting. Besides which, a pink noise signal is based on filtered random noise. It can only be considered to contain equal energy in each octave when averaged over a considerable time period. The sweep on the SMS-1 is only taking instantaneous measurements at each frequency and will therefore plot results that are all over the place from one sweep to the next. ;)

Jonomega,

Yeah, I was thinking about that. I've got it on a P.C. that I haven't used in a while. I'm going to try something else first.

On paper it sounds like a good idea, but you'll have trouble integrating a sub that's dedicated to only 22Hz and below.

On paper it sounds like a good idea, but you'll have trouble integrating a sub that's dedicated to only 22Hz and below.

I don't think he was talking about a dedicated sub for 22 Hz and below, but rather a replacement sub(s) that goes that low and lower...

I don't think he was talking about a dedicated sub for 22 Hz and below, .......
Ummm................... Read his post. That's exactly what he's talking about.


I'm very pleased with the general performance of my subwoofers (dual Velodyne HGS-15s with SMS-1). The only thing lacking is their ability to go really deep with much SPL. I'm good and flat to around 22hz but then 3dbs down at 19hz, then get a fairly steep rolloff.

I'd like to pick up where the Velodynes leaves off.

Is there a particular HSU sub (or other brand) that would work particulary well in augmenting my existing system. Ideally, something where I can set the crossover to around 20hz. Should I expect phase problems?

The original plan was for 22 and below, but that seems to be changing.

I first need to confirm my current subs' frequency response.

Is the intergration problem phase related?

Ummm................... Read his post. That's exactly what he's talking about.

Well, alrighty then. I stand corrected and misinterpreted his intentions. :confused:

But, yes, that is indeed a bad idea!

why is it a bad idea? what special integration problems are there?

JimP, at what frequency do you have the subsonic filter of the sms-1 set to? at what slope?

what's the +/-3db rating of the HGS15?

edit: the HGS15X does 18hz f3, I think velodyne quotes in room ratings. so aside from the filter question, it looks like your room is a bit big for that low of an extension. (or there might be a built in HGS subsonic filter)

ribbit,

On the SMS-1, the subsonic filter is set for 5 hz with a slope of 6 dbs per octave.

The specs on the HGS-15 are 18hz-120hz +-3. It has selectable subsonic filter of 15 or 35hz. They're both set on 15.

So you are saying a single DD-18 would be $2500 USED.

I'd rather have THREE Brand New 16-46+ ($2700) and put them in one corner

OR

DUAL PB-Ultra 13's ($2800) stacked in a corner


:D

ROFL :p ...

ribbit,

On the SMS-1, the subsonic filter is set for 5 hz with a slope of 6 dbs per octave.

The specs on the HGS-15 are 18hz-120hz +-3. It has selectable subsonic filter of 15 or 35hz. They're both set on 15.

how far away is the listening position from the subs?

if there's nothing wrong with the HGS's ...
it looks like you're gonna need at least dual 18's to get the extension you are craving.

is this setup purely HT? if it's HT, maybe you can go ported?

ribbit,

I doubt that there is anything wrong with the HGS. Actually, they sound pretty good.

I'm working my way towards getting REW back up and going. Need to find out independantly how these subs measure.

shhhh ... :) sub 20hz is over rated IMO

/me dodges the rocks being thrown my way


I noticed the HGS 12 and 10 models had 20hz filters while the 15 model had the 15hz filter like you said ... could it be possible your subs have the 20hz filters mistakenly installed? (were they purchased the same time?)

shhhh ... :) sub 20hz is over rated IMO

/me dodges the rocks being thrown my way


I noticed the HGS 12 and 10 models had 20hz filters while the 15 model had the 15hz filter like you said ... could it be possible your subs have the 20hz filters mistakenly installed? (were they purchased the same time?)

I really doubt it, they seem to be rolling off well above 20... :(

try measuring the HGS with the SMS-1 mic nearfield, see if it still rolls off above 20

Already tried that to be sure I wasn't in some tear in subspace (too much Star Trek Voyager) Charted the same. I still think something's up with the way the SMS1 plots these low frequencies.

shhhh ... :) sub 20hz is over rated IMO

... could it be possible your subs have the 20hz filters mistakenly installed? (were they purchased the same time?)

Purchased literally years apart. Did think about shorting out the subsonic filter in the sub and using the SMS-1 for subsonic control. Just not feeling particularly distructive this week.

Regarding your statement about sub 20 hz is over rated....If I knew what some of the sub 20 hz material sounds/feels like, I might agree with you.

if they were purchased years apart, I don't think it's the internal subsonic filter then.

curt/velodyne is your best bet now. (plus the REQW thing)

curiosity for sub 20hz is an expensive thing. :) beware.

....snip...

curiosity for sub 20hz is an expensive thing. :) beware.

I'm coming around to that conclusion. :)

I don't mean to pry, but have you tried teh REWQ method yet? Could be a pain if you dont have a computer in the same room, but it would probably only take 40 minutes of your time to setup the computer, microphone, read the REWQ Help file all over again, get started, and get your first measurements.

Guess what boys and girls?

Near field testing in a room doesn't eliminate room modes. I certainly didn't know that. Apparantly, my subs are also in a mode so near field testing didn't correct for that.

Bottom line, is that I have a room problem and the HGS-15s do go pretty low. No need to buy anything other than maybe another room. :eek:

Do you have alternatives for sub placement/LP(listening position) relocation?

avsrebel

I'll have to take a new look at my room. Moving subs around are not likely to help as my main problem is a room mode.

I will be doing some critical listening where I have the testing mic and see if it even matters.

Would the tripods coming out of the ground in War of the Worlds be as good as any material to test below 20hz?

avsrebel

I'll have to take a new look at my room. Moving subs around are not likely to help as my main problem is a room mode.

I will be doing some critical listening where I have the testing mic and see if it even matters.

Would the tripods coming out of the ground in War of the Worlds be as good as any material to test below 20hz?

Actually moving subs around and listening location can help diminish the effect of room modes, but could cause other problems. You will have to find the sweet compromise, then head to room treatments :/

The height based room mode will probably be the tougher one to deal with unless you want to lift the subwoofer up a couple of feet from the floor. Typically, I get around the height based problem by crossing my subwoofers at a frequency below the problem.