Aside from technical / performance issues, why are some people criticizing and downplaying the significance of dual format players? I sense this from Blu-Ray supporters for some reason. I don't get a sense that the HD-DVD camp is unhappy, so why is the BD side reacting negatively? Dual format players don't hurt BD in any way, and can only help increase their sales (ditto for HD-DVD). What am I missing?

Because it's another BD exclusive company who's turning neutral. If the announcement was that Toshiba was going dual format, I think the BD side would greet the news much more positively.

Because it's another BD exclusive company who's turning neutral. If the announcement was that Toshiba was going dual format, I think the BD side would greet the news much more positively.
Yes they would, but would consider it a nail in the coffin as, maybe some HD DVD supporters do for the reverse.

Many of us have been against dual format from the beginning as we felt that one format was better for the medium.

However, I am beginning to feel that the likelihood of coexistence may be strong in which case combo players would certainly be the way to go.

Because of the PS3 and other factors, Blu-ray is not going anywhere for quite awhile. However the same may be true for HD DVD. There could be a solid enough install base at this point. Who knows.

Simple. Dual Format players keep the HD-DVD format alive. Most Sony aficionados simply do not want that. This is extremely evident from the PS3 crowd.

I think the dual-format approach is going to keep costs of the disks higher. If everyone could agree on one format then US THE CONSUMER could see cheaper disks from larger production of a specific format. I have to think WB neutrality support costs money and slows down release schedules.

However, at the end of the day if things stay neutral then I will conform. I'm not going to throw myself on a sword for either one of these formats.

If dual-format players become the norm, I could see some format-neutral companies starting to release only HD DVDs for some titles, because they are cheaper.

Because it's another BD exclusive company who's turning neutral. If the announcement was that Toshiba was going dual format, I think the BD side would greet the news much more positively.

But why would they care that they've gone neutral? They are still supporting BD.

But why would they care that they've gone neutral? They are still supporting BD.
BD exclusive --> HD/BD neutral is a huge blow for the Blu-ray group, because it acknowledges that Blu-ray isn't headed for a quick win. Instead, the hi-def format war is headed where many of us predicted it would be headed: To a format stalemate.

This is a huge step. And when the prices for dual-format players become affordable (<$300), the format war is dead. (This is assuming HD DVD players aren't $129 by then.)

This would effectively make the PS3 (and the Xbox 360's HD DVD add-on) obsolete as a hi-def optical disc player.

Yes they would, but would consider it a nail in the coffin as, maybe some HD DVD supporters do for the reverse.

Many of us have been against dual format from the beginning as we felt that one format was better for the medium.

However, I am beginning to feel that the likelihood of coexistence may be strong in which case combo players would certainly be the way to go.

Because of the PS3 and other factors, Blu-ray is not going anywhere for quite awhile. However the same may be true for HD DVD. There could be a solid enough install base at this point. Who knows.


I always knew you had the potential to be Bi-curious :p Yeah! :)

For the record I'll probably swing both ways myself when the time is right.

I think the dual-format approach is going to keep costs of the disks higher. If everyone could agree on one format then US THE CONSUMER could see cheaper disks from larger production of a specific format. I have to think WB neutrality support costs money and slows down release schedules.

However, at the end of the day if things stay neutral then I will conform. I'm not going to throw myself on a sword for either one of these formats.


Sorry, but I believe to the contrary, I think that prices will come down and eventually stabilize with two formats competing. We have already seen the price of hardware come way down in the past couple of months. I only own HD DVD but if a quality DF player comes to market I will have no problem going Dual.

Because of the PS3 and other factors, Blu-ray is not going anywhere for quite awhile. However the same may be true for HD DVD. There could be a solid enough install base at this point. Who knows.

I think most people in the industry have come to this conclusion. We should see more companies going neutral in the coming months - though probably not any big players till '08.

BD exclusive --> HD/BD neutral is a huge blow for the Blu-ray group, because it acknowledges that Blu-ray isn't headed for a quick win. Instead, the hi-def format war is headed where many of us predicted it would be headed: To a format stalemate.

This also explains Panasonic's outburst against LG in the DVD forum. I think core BD companies now see thier assumed victory slowly slipping away ....

Dual format players are bad because it prolongs the needless existence of two formats. Two format HD media will only prolong the time needed for HD to be mainstream. That's not good for anyone that wants HD players and media at good prices.

TotalHD discs are bad for the same reason. Just one more obstacle to the marketplace picking a winner. I know lots of people not buying either format until they know they can get every movie they want to play on a single player. Dual format players and TotalHD discs might seem like they will make that happen sooner, but I don't believe the average buyer will be confident that both will stick around to make a purchase.

Blu Ray people don't like prolonging because they feel they are winning and this is a setback to Blu Ray becoming the only format. HD DVD supporters are obviously discouraged by the lack luster sales numbers and see this as a way to keep their format alive. Personally, I don't care which one wins, just as long as we can get to one format (like it should have been in the first place).

Dual format players are bad because it prolongs the needless existence of two formats. ... That's not good for anyone that wants HD players and media at good prices.

Without two formats you wouldn't have got the inexpensive players that we have now - let alone cheaper players at mainstream price levels. BD / HD-DVD companies would be happy milking early adopters for years ...

Dual format players are bad because it prolongs the needless existence of two formats. Two format HD media will only prolong the time needed for HD to be mainstream. That's not good for anyone that wants HD players and media at good prices.

TotalHD discs are bad for the same reason. Just one more obstacle to the marketplace picking a winner. I know lots of people not buying either format until they know they can get every movie they want to play on a single player. Dual format players and TotalHD discs might seem like they will make that happen sooner, but I don't believe the average buyer will be confident that both will stick around to make a purchase.

Blu Ray people don't like prolonging because they feel they are winning and this is a setback to Blu Ray becoming the only format. HD DVD supporters are obviously discouraged by the lack luster sales numbers and see this as a way to keep their format alive. Personally, I don't care which one wins, just as long as we can get to one format (like it should have been in the first place).

Yeah I guess I was naive to believe this war might end next year. Samsung's duo means both formats will survive indefinitely. That seems incredibly likely now.

We are against dual format players because we would have to buy another player.

How complicated is that?

Why not just make the content work on the players we already have? (PS3 in my case)

We are against dual format players because we would have to buy another player.

How complicated is that?

Why not just make the content work on the players we already have? (PS3 in my case)
HD DVD in my case. Existing media from your format doesn't work on my player, existing media from my format doesn't work in your player. Get the picture?

I welcome dual-format, even though it will make my 360 HD DVD add-on obsolete. Luckily, I only invested US$175 to get my single-format player. (I already had the Xbox 360, and bought if for games and AAC music streaming.)

HD DVD in my case. Existing media from your format doesn't work on my player, existing media from my format doesn't work in your player. Get the picture?


Go neutral and re-release?

If they can re-release slightly different versions of DVDs over and over why couldn't they release titles on another format later?

I think the dual-format approach is going to keep costs of the disks higher. If everyone could agree on one format then US THE CONSUMER could see cheaper disks from larger production of a specific format. I have to think WB neutrality support costs money and slows down release schedules.


Then using TotalHD discs would be the solution?

This would effectively make the PS3 (and the Xbox 360's HD DVD add-on) obsolete as a hi-def optical disc player.

I had not thought of that.

Then using TotalHD discs would be the solution?

TotalHD look to be a higher cost alternative that give you a feature you can't use (the other side of the disc).

Plus there is talk of the BD side being limited to 25gb, no lossless, etc.

Go neutral and re-release?

If they can re-release slightly different versions of DVDs over and over why couldn't they release titles on another format later?
They wouldn't necessarily have to bother if dual-format was the norm.

Then using TotalHD discs would be the solution?
The easiest solution (in the context of a format stalemate) is to have a one time cost premium in the player (combo), and then just use the cheapest disc format.

If combo players were the norm say in 2009, I could see the major neutral studios continuing to release on both formats for a while (or on TotalHD), but for cost reasons I could see a number of small studio releasing on HD DVD only.

I know lots of people not buying either format until they know they can get every movie they want to play on a single player. Dual format players and TotalHD discs might seem like they will make that happen sooner, but I don't believe the average buyer will be confident that both will stick around to make a purchase.


But with a dual format player, you won't have to care which format is still around down the road.

Without two formats you wouldn't have got the inexpensive players that we have now - let alone cheaper players at mainstream price levels. BD / HD-DVD companies would be happy milking early adopters for years ...

Good point.

We are against dual format players because we would have to buy another player.

How complicated is that?

Why not just make the content work on the players we already have? (PS3 in my case)

Why would you have to buy another player? BD movies are still going to be produced, with or without dual format players.

HD DVD in my case. Existing media from your format doesn't work on my player, existing media from my format doesn't work in your player. Get the picture?

...and welcome to early adoption. It stymies me that anyone thought they bought their first and last player, even in their format of choice. I'd much rather buy a dual player to expand my options for new titles than dump software, and possibly re-buy it yet again.

I'm not proud of it, but I've had 9 DVD players! I went from standard to progressive, region free, region free with progressive, region free progressive with upconversion.... you get the idea.

I already support two DVD formats NTSC and PAL, so the whole BD and HD DVD thing doesn't bug me.

TotalHD look to be a higher cost alternative that give you a feature you can't use (the other side of the disc).

Plus there is talk of the BD side being limited to 25gb, no lossless, etc.

That would indeed be a down side then.

Why would you have to buy another player? BD movies are still going to be produced, with or without dual format players.
True, but I personally would want access to all movies available, not just those on one side.

I have an HD DVD player now, and am satisfied for the most part with what's available (and what will be coming) on HD DVD, but if dual-format players are cheap, of course I'll buy one.

True, but I personally would want access to all movies available, not just those on one side.

I have an HD DVD player now, and am satisfied for the most part with what's available (and what will be coming) on HD DVD, but if dual-format players are cheap, of course I'll buy one.

Couldn't you just get a BD player instead of a dual format (since you already have HD) and save money?

Haven't read the others yet, but I'll take the plunge.

The BR camp, judging from Sony's reported position, feels that Dual Format players would give "credibility" to HD DVD, since it would be an admission that HD DVD has gotten strong enough in the market to support with new hardware from more vendors.

Second, and this is unstated, I believe that they are VERY worried about hybrid players because the state of play for Bluray hardware is in a mess right now. The standalone players current on sale for Bluray don't have the hardware necessary to meet the 1.1 player profile spec, and so will never be compatible with 1.1 or 2.0.

Furthermore, Bluray players are more expensive than HD DVD players - there are a whole raft of Bluray players at $1,000 SRP and higher, yet most of them do not support a good feature set. So if ANY player were to come along, at the same price, and offer 1080p24, HDMI 1.3, DD+, TrueHD, DTS-HD MA, BD-Video 1.1 compatibility, and so on - it would wipe out these other BR players - The Samsung UP5000 has all of that - AND it plays HD DVDs as well.

The Samsung could DECIMATE the high-end BD player market.

HD DVD is protected from much of this. Their strategy has been to go for the mass market all along, not to profiteer with the traditional adoption model. So they are focussing on players from the $200 mark, up to the $500 mark, with a very complete set of features. And their most expensive player retails (currently) at $799.

Therefore, universal players in the $900 range will supplant Bluray player sales to a greater degree than HD DVD sales.

If the majority of standalone players in the mass market are HD DVD, and the majority of standalone players at the "high end" are hybrids, then studios will see quite clearly that the largest market for their movies is on the HD DVD disc.

This terrifies the everlovin' cr*p out of the Bluray folks, and many of their supporters. Have you noticed in the "intent to buy poll" for the Samsung, almost all the bluray folks said they WOULDN'T buy the Samsung?

However, in the real market, practical folks will choose the Samsung over a standalone BR player, and folks who can't afford both formats are going to pick HD DVD.

I have more detail on this thinking in my Samsung (http://www.campaignhd.com/407_Samsung_Universal_Player.html) and LG player (http://www.campaignhd.com/Comment_Universal_Players.html) commentaries.

Couldn't you just get a BD player instead of a dual format (since you already have HD) and save money?
Perhaps Bugs wants to cut down on clutter. Too many boxes can be problematic aesthetically.
J

Couldn't you just get a BD player instead of a dual format (since you already have HD) and save money?

But you lose the advantage of using just one set of hook ups. :)

...and welcome to early adoption. It stymies me that anyone thought they bought their first and last player, even in their format of choice. I'd much rather buy a dual player to expand my options for new titles than dump software, and possibly re-buy it yet again.

I'm not proud of it, but I've had 9 DVD players! I went from standard to progressive, region free, region free with progressive, region free progressive with upconversion.... you get the idea.

I already support two DVD formats NTSC and PAL, so the whole BD and HD DVD thing doesn't bug me.
Only 9? I've owned 15 DVD players since 1998. I'm already on my fourth HD DVD player. Still on my first BD player though, the PS3. And after using the PS3 I doubt I'll by a stand alone BD player anytime soon because I don't think a stand alone player will match the speed and capability of the PS3 for a while.

Because it's another BD exclusive company who's turning neutral.

I wouldn't call a company that has been talking about duo players on and off for almost two years neutral.

Couldn't you just get a BD player instead of a dual format (since you already have HD) and save money?
Well, not really, unless the Blu-ray companies go on a price slashing binge.

And if say the combo player is $299 and the Blu-ray player is $239, I'd still get the combo, just because it's more convenient. I used to have a DVD-RW burner and a separate DVD-RAM burner. It was sometimes quite annoying. It was much more convenient to have one with all of the above (until DVD-RAM became effectively defunct for me). It's even more true with a home theatre systems, because you don't have to deal with multiple sets of inputs.


The Samsung could DECIMATE the high-end BD player market.
Not that there is much of one in the first place... because of the uber high prices.

BD exclusive --> HD/BD neutral is a huge blow for the Blu-ray group, because it acknowledges that Blu-ray isn't headed for a quick win. Instead, the hi-def format war is headed where many of us predicted it would be headed: To a format stalemate.

This is a huge step. And when the prices for dual-format players become affordable (<$300), the format war is dead. (This is assuming HD DVD players aren't $129 by then.)

This would effectively make the PS3 (and the Xbox 360's HD DVD add-on) obsolete as a hi-def optical disc player.I agree. It shows that BR has not "won" and HD DVD is now established as a credible media.

Further, the game will be enitrely fought on price when these hybrid players come to market, since "single format" players will only have price to differentiate. At the same time, when one format becomes "more equal" than the other, a new market will emerge at the "ver high end" for single format players of the winning format, which trade on quality - but this can't happen while the consumer still perceives risk.

On the PS3/360 comment, I'd agree, but characterise it a little better. It's not that they become obsolete as players, just that they would not represent the same value as players. If HD/BD players are selling for $200, then a $600 PS3 is hardly going to seem like a good idea.

The add-on HD DVD player is rather immune to this problem, as it has huge appeal, at something like $160 that extends beyond the Xbox 360, since it can be used on PCs. However, it too will lose significance if standalone players reach that price point and PC drives become available for $50.

Sorry, but I believe to the contrary, I think that prices will come down and eventually stabilize with two formats competing. We have already seen the price of hardware come way down in the past couple of months. I only own HD DVD but if a quality DF player comes to market I will have no problem going Dual.
"Competition, for lack of a better word, is good..." :)

Only 9? I've owned 15 DVD players since 1998. I'm already on my fourth HD DVD player. Still on my first BD player though, the PS3. And after using the PS3 I doubt I'll by a stand alone BD player anytime soon because I don't think a stand alone player will match the speed and capability of the PS3 for a while.

All I can say is that I hope your profession allows you to deduct electronics and software ;)

Actually I think dual format players may help Blu-Ray in the long run. If they (dual format players) become the norm, and BR get it's java working as good as HDi and gets rolling with full support for DTSHD-MA and TrueHD, then the only resistance to using Blu-Ray media would be the expense to the studios for pressing and of course bad blood and allegiances. That is alot of IF's though, and in the short run, it is great for HD DVD because it is another CE choice for consumers.

Dual format players are bad because it prolongs the needless existence of two formats. Two format HD media will only prolong the time needed for HD to be mainstream. It's time to accept that the "format war" is over and that there will be no "wipeout" of either format.

Both are here to stay. Their future success will now come down to proving their cost-effectiveness and sales potential. This, IMO, is why it was critical for BD to win a quick victory and never allow HD DVD to become relevant - because the BD issues are technical in nature and also issues of cost of production.

They have failed in this... badly. Not only is HD DVD not "irrelevant", but it looks set to take the lead in sales, and Universal players will damage sales of BD-only players. The smart studios will make their decisions to support HD DVD now, rather than later - it's a losing battle to expect to "beat" HD DVD now, the best thing for Studio shareholders is that they add HD DVD support and let the manufacturers battle it out from here on.

That's not good for anyone that wants HD players and media at good prices.This is a rather "blindered" view. How can one say that this has not been good for prices for consumers? Or even benefits for that matter? The competition between the two formats meant we could get players for $500 when the formats launched, as opposed to $1,000+ when DVD launched. And the movies cost $20 each on places like Amazon, as opposed to $40 to $45 that I used to pay for D-Theater tapes on DVHS, or even for DVDs at launch, when adjusted for inflation.

And we have now seen this competition bringing down BD prices and forcing manufacturers to add more features.

Consumers have won on all counts. There will be much more competition in the universal player market also, and I can easily see uni's selling for $800 or less this christmas.

TotalHD discs are bad for the same reason. Just one more obstacle to the marketplace picking a winner. It's not that THD discs are "bad" per se, just that they are becoming less relevant now, since Universal players are coming to market. However, if 4 major studios adopted THD discs today, and they were true Dual Layer for each format, they would be a success, since the retail stores, particularly brick and mortar, would be thrilled to save valuable floor space and reduce inventory management issues.

Blu Ray people don't like prolonging because they feel they are winning and this is a setback to Blu Ray becoming the only format.It was unrealistic to expect one format stadning in the first year. It's a dose of reality that HD DVD is a credible format with owners and users just as real, and with just as much disposable income for movies, as BR. Sales are virtually the same for both now.

HD DVD supporters are obviously discouraged by the lack luster sales numbers and see this as a way to keep their format alive.No, I believe that HD DVD owners were discouraged by the lack of new releases early this year. We'll never know the true reasons for this occurence, but I think it was down to HUGE production orders for Standard Definition DVDs pre-Christmas, which filled a lot of production capacity needed for 1Q HD DVD releases. I also suspect additional confusion was thrown into the mix by the AACS "crisis".

Now that releases are back to normal, folks are just as excited about buying Hi Def as they were before the lull - no more, no less.

Personally, I don't care which one wins, just as long as we can get to one format (like it should have been in the first place).I agree... as long as it's HD DVD :D (just kidding)

But seriously, this "format war" just evolved overnight. It's now at the point where the two formats will be slugging it out based on their "real", not "theoretical" benefits and value to users.

This means that it's now down to manufacturers and the core design camps.

The window for the "quick win" has passed. And that was the main thing that the studios in the BD camp were counting on, IMO. They are not stupid, and they'll look to get business wherever there is business to be had.

It's one thing for Sony to say: "stick with us, and we'll win the war FAST. We'll prove it to you, but you must stick with us". But a sensible studio will say: "Your plan has merit, if you can pull it off. I'll stick with you on condition it's a quick win. But if after a year it doesn't look good, then I'm going neutral and you're on your own - no hard feelings, OK?"

I think that's where we essentially are right now. In august/september, the BD-only studios will likely be saying to themselves "What the heck are we doing in this battle thing still for?".

The BD camp will be telling them: "SERIOUSLY, we can win tjhis thing over Christmas '07. STAY with us, PLEASE. Make your decision NEXT year."

If the BD studios don't think that it can be reversed, why should they stay in the war the extra year?

Not only that, some of the buyers are now starting to get pretty angry at these BD studios, from the feedback I'm getting on my site. I keep having to edit petition signatures to remove some comments that are negative, and it's getting more frequent.

Couldn't you just get a BD player instead of a dual format (since you already have HD) and save money?
Those who already have HD DVD players would have to look at their options for adding BD support to their stable.

Buy a BD standalone player, now, For $800, which is NOT compatible with the BD-Video 1.1 "standard player profile" which will be finally completed in October, which doesn't have 1080p24, TrueHD, DTS-HD MA, etc etc etc

Or... wait a little, then get a BD player which does all of that, for very close to the same price, and has HD DVD as well

Or... wait a little longer and get a BD only player for $500 or less.

With so many movies coming on HD DVD, it may not be necessary for some HD DVD users to buy into BD, and many may likely wait for the next generation of BD machines (and more hybrids) in October/November, anyway - rather than sink money into obsolete BD players.

If they had NO Hi Def at all, right now, it would be different. For new buyers who haven't bought into either camp, it will really be a choice, practically speaking, between HD-only based on price, or dual-format players.

The reason why Blu-Ray owners HATE dual format players is because it means another company is supporting HD DVD. First LG, now Samsung, pretty soon will realize it is time to release a Dual Format player.

Blue-Ray would still win if dual format players become the norm. There would be no incentive for the studios to change side in this scenario. The larger number of Blue-Ray studios mean that Blue-Ray media will dominate in the long term.

This also explains Panasonic's outburst against LG in the DVD forum. I think core BD companies now see thier assumed victory slowly slipping away ....

I would like to know about this! :D Could you be more specific with some juicy details? What can poor Samsung expect?

Duo players will be great for early adopters but pointless in the long run.
Same for duo discs.

The trend is already starting in Europe where Content Providers and Authoring/Post/Replicator industry is opting for HD DVD because of cost and competition reasons.

Wherever you are in the chain of producing something for BD you have to compete with Sony, and most companies doesn’t have financial muscle for that.
In addition, Sony will be able to “look over your shoulder” through BD license applications, as they are the licensing body for BD by appointment by the BDA.
That doesn’t make a good competitive climate nor tempting to invest in BD for anybody else than big companies.

The same trend is starting slowly in the US, as seen in interviews with someone representing the Replicator industry at the recent MediaTech in US, which advised the industry to go for HD DVD because of some of the same reasons.

The way to watch and analyze which way the “format war” is going is to keep an eye on the mid and low tier companies involved in the DVD industry and see what choices they make for their future, not by watching disc sales statistics. Also watch which side support them most and which format will serve their future best.
I believe it is very much they, combined with cheap players and disks that will decide which format will be most common, much more than popularity among the consumers and big companies.

When the force of the small companies of the industry comes fully into play, the main BDA players may find themselves very alone.

I am not thrilled about 2 movie formats either, but in hindsight I think the competition has really helped move the hardware cheaper much quicker than it would have otherwise. Movies aren't so cheap yet, probably next year some time. I also think the competition has gotten us hardware/codec improvements that would have been much slower. Neither of the 2 formats is significantly superior if you consider that the media is going to be used for movies as well as computer storage. Therefore, it seems best to have dual format players and fast!

Without two formats you wouldn't have got the inexpensive players that we have now - let alone cheaper players at mainstream price levels. BD / HD-DVD companies would be happy milking early adopters for years ...

Doubt it. Its in both the CE companies and studios best interest to get players down to mass market pricing as soon as possible.

Duo players will be great for early adopters but pointless in the long run.
Same for duo discs.

The trend is already starting in Europe where Content Providers and Authoring/Post/Replicator industry is opting for HD DVD because of cost and competition reasons.

Wherever you are in the chain of producing something for BD you have to compete with Sony, and most companies doesn’t have financial muscle for that.
In addition, Sony will be able to “look over your shoulder” through BD license applications, as they are the licensing body for BD by appointment by the BDA.
That doesn’t make a good competitive climate nor tempting to invest in BD for anybody else than big companies.

The same trend is starting slowly in the US, as seen in interviews with someone representing the Replicator industry at the recent MediaTech in US, which advised the industry to go for HD DVD because of some of the same reasons.

The way to watch and analyze which way the “format war” is going is to keep an eye on the mid and low tier companies involved in the DVD industry and see what choices they make for their future, not by watching disc sales statistics. Also watch which side support them most and which format will serve their future best.
I believe it is very much they, combined with cheap players and disks that will decide which format will be most common, much more than popularity among the consumers and big companies.

When the force of the small companies of the industry comes fully into play, the main BDA players may find themselves very alone.

The small companies will have to compete with Sony regardless of who wins.

I don't see too many small businesses betting their company on one format in the middle of a format war though. I think that they are better of waiting until the dust settle first.

The small companies will have to compete with Sony regardless of who wins.


Not the same for small companies involving themselves in HD DVD as in BD. Sony has companies involved and ownership in all aspects of BD. Not that much involvement by Sony in HD DVD. :)

Not the same for small companies involving themselves in HD DVD as in BD. Sony has companies involved and ownership in all aspects of BD. Not that much involvement by Sony in HD DVD. :)

It will if HD DVD is the victor. Just as it had a big presence in VHS after Beta lost.

I've heard so many who have yet to invest in either format say they are waiting for a reasonably priced, dual format player. They just presume it's possible and likely, and if they ever had any doubt the LG took care of that for them.

Right now releases of either format are an act of "good-faith" on the part of the studios, but they won't hang in there forever, hybrids will sell more disks in both formats, and possibly keep the whole works from going down the toilet

I'd buy a Denon dual player, but probably not any other brand. LG and Samsung are not brand marques I'm willing to pay more than $500 or so for.

Doubt it. Its in both the CE companies and studios best interest to get players down to mass market pricing as soon as possible.

Hah! Now THAT made me laugh! Thanks for the chuckle.

Ugh, so many tired old arguments listed here.

1) The "two formats are responsible for every good thing ever" argument is a real gem (one of rjdam's favorites). Never get tired of hearing that flawed logic. The short respone to it is this:

Two formats = less competition. The teams are not directly competing, but indirectly competing. This is bad. Ex: A $400 Toshiba Blu-ray player would have more effect on overall player prices than a $400 Toshiba HD DVD player. What we have now is "mini-monopolies" (especially with HD DVD: Toshiba and Universal).

2) Why do "blu" people hate dual format and "red" people like it? Because the perception is that in the short term only blu-ray has a chance of "winning" while HD DVD can at best stalemate. HD DVD's only winning strategy is to wait things out long term and hope that prices drop to ridiculous levels and studios start announcing neutrality (but not Universal). Dual format players are basically like HD DVD life support. Any short-term move towards neutrality is good for HD DVD but "bad" for blu-ray (but much more good for HD DVD than bad for Blu-ray). So it's not all touchy-feely loveness: "why would anybody be against dual format players. Everybody wins!". Not true: dual format players necessarily cement two different formats. Having two different formats still sucks and no, we are not at a position where we can safely say both formats are here to stay.

3) Some people are just against two formats completely. Look at all the damn confusion it's already causing. Then we have PS3s and Xboxes that only play certain movies, *everybody* has to buy a new player, etc. It would literally take several years before format became transparent to users (as in: you would buy a disc and it would just play on your player, no matter what).

Dual format players/discs are a short term solution that solidify a long-term problem!

Fact is, it is STILL too early to declare any format has won, lost, or is here to stay long term. Blu's studio support is currently not resulting in too much more output compared to HD DVD. HD DVDs price advantage is shrinking and hasn't really proved to be much of a factor for the mass market. BD-J is incomplete, so short term blu-ray player sales will likely be tepid, but PS3 salees will continue. HD DVD still has a problem with big name new releases. Sales are still so low that AVS members can acutally influence sales rankings. etc.

Much like the video game consoles, the outcome of this war (whatever it may be) looks like it will be decided this holiday season. Buy new year's 2008 we'll know the landscape, giving the CE companies and studios time to make necessary announcements during CES. They'll look at the sales numbers and telegraph the outcome of the war with their announcements. If Universal and only Universal goes Neutral: Blu-ray wins. If any one blu-ray studio goes neutral: we have a stalemate. If nobody changes any sides, we have a stalemate with a bias towards Blu-ray. If all studios but Sony go neutral: HD DVD wins.

I really do hope that somebody wins this thing. If not, if it really does settle on dual format, my prediction is this: within a couple of years BOTH formats will die as digital downloads replace them. Look at the Xbox. Look at AppleTV. The foundations are being put in place. I can easily see that by 2009 people won't bother with the format confusion mess and will just go with nice, simple downloads.

The only way anyone could be against a hybrid player is if they work for Sony or own Sony stock. I bought into HD becuase of price and TrueHD. Once the 2.0 upgrade was there, I was in. I have looked into BD but with players that do not support the advanced audio codecs and at those high prices, I have not purcased one. With the Duo, you get complete HD and BD specs plus ALL codecs including DTS-MA with analog outputs. If it is priced so that is can be had for under $800 I am in and will put the HD into the bedroom. How can any sensible person without an agenda be against such a player, provided it actually works as advertised?

The only way anyone could be against a hybrid player is if they work for Sony or own Sony stock. I bought into HD becuase of price and TrueHD. Once the 2.0 upgrade was there, I was in. I have looked into BD but with players that do not support the advanced audio codecs and at those high prices, I have not purcased one. With the Duo, you get complete HD and BD specs plus ALL codecs including DTS-MA with analog outputs. If it is priced so that is can be had for under $800 I am in and will put the HD into the bedroom. How can any sensible person without an agenda be against such a player, provided it actually works as advertised?

See above, point 3. Dual format players are a nice short term solution (I can play any disc) but it solidifies the problem of having two formats in the first place. For some of us, the priority is to have one format (pick one, doesn't matter) because it has many long term benefits over a dual-format market.

2) Why do "blu" people hate dual format and "red" people like it? Because the perception is that in the short term only blu-ray has a chance of "winning" while HD DVD can at best stalemate. HD DVD's only winning strategy is to wait things out long term and hope that prices drop to ridiculous levels and studios start announcing neutrality (but not Universal). Dual format players are basically like HD DVD life support. Any short-term move towards neutrality is good for HD DVD but "bad" for blu-ray (but much more good for HD DVD than bad for Blu-ray). So it's not all touchy-feely loveness: "why would anybody be against dual format players. Everybody wins!". Not true: dual format players necessarily cement two different formats. Having two different formats still sucks and no, we are not at a position where we can safely say both formats are here to stay.
In some respects you may be right about perceptions about this stalemate, as I always felt that HD DVD was at a disadvantage before the two formats were launched. Blu-ray had the lead on paper, but it proved it couldn't meet the hype. HD DVD essentially hoped for a stalemate, and methinks it has achieved it. By the time Blu-ray got its assets in gear, HD DVD was firmly in place. Many Blu-ray buyers don't seem to like this.

To put it another way, I see a lot of $399 HD DVD machine owners (or $199 360 HD DVD drive owners) who don't mind upgrading their hardware in a year or so, if they can for say $299. For myself, I specifically avoided both formats, because I wasn't willing to spend more than CAD$200 for a player early on. To my shock, MS released the HD DVD add-on for $199.99 CAD (US$175 at the time), and that included both a remote and a free HD DVD. In contrast, I see some $1000 Blu-ray player owners annoyed at the idea that their chosen format will not win outright.

That said, at least some people I know who got the PS3 are looking forward to inexpensive dual-format players, partially cuz they bought the PS3 to play games, not specifically for Blu-ray.

Buy a BD standalone player, now, For $800, which is NOT compatible with the BD-Video 1.1 "standard player profile" which will be finally completed in October, Oh my, the FUD is big here. :) Compliant BD players may also be introduced and shipped before that date.

which doesn't have 1080p24, TrueHD, DTS-HD MA, etc etc etc Wonder what will you complain about when the new BD players roll out? :)

Sorry Padriac, I do not but that argument at all. If consumers can have a machine that will play both, there will be no need for them to not buy the discs. The more sales of HD media, the better. Over time, I can see one format dominating. The hybrid may work in HD DVD's favor as the discs are cheaper and easler to produce. As long as you machine plays both, who cares what disc you purchase. Two existing formats no longer matters.

Sorry Padriac, I do not but that argument at all. If consumers can have a machine that will play both, there will be no need for them to not buy the discs. The more sales of HD media, the better. Over time, I can see one format dominating. The hybrid may work in HD DVD's favor as the discs are cheaper and easler to produce. As long as you machine plays both, who cares what disc you purchase. Two existing formats no longer matters.

DVD-A vs. SACD. Two formats. Much confusion, eventually players played both but by then the public decided they liked the downloading format better: mp3. Sounds eerily like what migh happen in the next few years with video, doesn't it?

In theory you are correct, but it would take so long to phase out the first two years of single format players (the PS3, in particular, will be very entrenched) that stores will still have to stock separately based on format, which means the public will still be confused and stay away. Dual format players are great for enthusiasts in the know, but until they are truly ubiquitous (such that you wouldn't even have to separately mark whether a disc was HD DVD or Blu-ray) it won't solve anything.

I'd say dual format players are a long-term (it will take a while to work) second-best (a single format is still a much better ideal for all inolved) solution. I think of it as a failsafe that will ensure HD media will at least become some Laserdisc-ish niche market should the format war ruin all chances of DVD succession.

Blue-Ray would still win if dual format players become the norm. There would be no incentive for the studios to change side in this scenario. The larger number of Blue-Ray studios mean that Blue-Ray media will dominate in the long term.


Not if Warner goes back to it's first love ;)

This is a rather "blindered" view. How can one say that this has not been good for prices for consumers? Or even benefits for that matter? The competition between the two formats meant we could get players for $500 when the formats launched, as opposed to $1,000+ when DVD launched. And the movies cost $20 each on places like Amazon, as opposed to $40 to $45 that I used to pay for D-Theater tapes on DVHS, or even for DVDs at launch, when adjusted for inflation.


Low quality players are not a benefit in my view. The competition did not help. It hurt. Sorry, maybe I've been too close the manufacturing side of things for too long, but all the competition from the format war did was force both sides to take short cuts to be competitive. Yes, I paid $1000 for my first DVD player, and I could get a HD DVD player for half that. But...I never had any problems with my first DVD player reading discs, playing when I wanted it to, etc. Both Toshiba and Sony had to rush things because of the war. This board is full of people with problems in players from both formats that you never saw with DVD, or did rarely. How is low quality control good for consumers?

When faced with a need to lower prices, companies do trim profit margins, but only so much. The rest is absorbed by using cheaper components and labor to manufacture the item. All hardware manufactures incurred a large cost with the development of HD hardware. They always charge high prices at the launch to recover these costs. In the case today, they made lower quality products to deal with the competition. Since there was never a time during this war to recover those costs, the low quality players will stick around for longer, since the costs still haven't been recovered. How is that good for the consumer?

In fact, the dual format players are mostly likely a way for the companies to recover those costs. Without much additiona cost, they can put out a dual format player that can be sold at a premium with higher profit margins. Remind me how that is good for the consumer?

Personally, I prefer nicer equipment. I've never paid less than $1000 for any of the 3 DVD players I've owned. I said "good" prices, not low prices. I don't feel the consumer is winning because they aren't getting their money's worth from either format. Quality players coming to market from the beginning (even at a high price), then having those slowly decline is best. Quality is there from the beginning, and people will buy the players as the price drops to a level they are willing to pay. I believe this is what's good for the consumer.

I'd buy a Denon dual player, but probably not any other brand. LG and Samsung are not brand marques I'm willing to pay more than $500 or so for.
Exactly, because they don't make quality components. They may work okay for a time, but the build quality is not there. Sony and Toshiba have also put out some crap players in their need to cut costs and get things out quickly. All due to this damn format war.

How can any sensible person without an agenda be against such a player, provided it actually works as advertised?
Because the quality won't be there for the price. Everyone feels they need a different level of quality. This won't fit it for a lot of people...espeically at that price.

Wonder what will you complain about when the new BD players roll out? :)

Kieth, don't you have faith in human ingenuity ? ;)

I would like to know about this! :D Could you be more specific with some juicy details? What can poor Samsung expect?

If you ask the question in the insiders thread, may be someone will throw a bone ... :)

If the half-baked LG can sell at $1200 retail (LG says faster than they could make them), then this baby is gonna sell too, and so will others.

More importantly Hybrids are aimed at those who have yet to enter the ring, and they carry with them the peace of mind that if you buy it, you can play it. Once it's known that there are a few on the market, for some nothing less will do, and it will all come down to price.

All it's got to do is sell for more to appear.

Low quality players are not a benefit in my view.
Low price does not = Low Quality.

But I guess you've now made three posts saying that the quality is poor on these HD DVD machines just because they are cheaper.

Anyone who has an A1, which was 1/2 to 1/3 the price of the bluray players knows what I mean. This thing is built like a tank, and has absolutely UBER-quality video circuitry.

It is one of the few consumer pieces to pass some of the highest tests of analog video resolution detail at high frequencies, and to show absolutely ZERO chroma delay on either R,G, or B channels in the digital and analog outputs.

Contrast that with some of the more expensive units from other formats, HD or not.

If BR will not be able to compete on price, so be it, they lose the war.

But don't cast generalizations that just because something is more affordable then it must be inferior. Remember Honda and Toyota?

Because the quality won't be there for the price. Everyone feels they need a different level of quality. This won't fit it for a lot of people...espeically at that price.


Well, times gonna tell both if it is wanting in quality or appeal.

Some believe dual format players help Blu-ray. The dual format players combined with PS3 and projected BD-only player sales make lot of BD-capable players out there, so publishing movies in BD could end up being the safest thing to do.

My question is what about dual format recorders?

Some believe dual format players help Blu-ray. The dual format players combined with PS3 and projected BD-only player sales make lot of BD-capable players out there, so publishing movies in BD could end up being the safest thing to do.

Interesting perspective.

I personally think Warner's TotalHD is a better solution than universal players.

My question is what about dual format recorders?

Where is the content to record ? That is why we will see recorders mostly selling in countries without draconian content protection laws ...

Kieth, don't you have faith in human ingenuity ? ;)Good point... :)

Because the quality won't be there for the price. Everyone feels they need a different level of quality. This won't fit it for a lot of people...espeically at that price.
Who's to say the quality won't be there? The Toshiba HD-A1 is a quality product quirks and all and I know a few who are quite happy with the Sammy BD. Price does not necessarily equal quality. I have seen some awful high end audio components that cost tens of thousands of dollars.

Hah! Now THAT made me laugh! Thanks for the chuckle.

100k players sold @ $399 or 10 million sold @ $100. which do you think a CE company would prefer?

I personally think Warner's TotalHD is a better solution than universal players.Too much glue for me. :)

And I worry about consumer confusion of which way to insert the disc. Now if the drives had lasers top and bottom... :)

Where is the content to record ? That is why we will see recorders mostly selling in countries without draconian content protection laws ...With DRM, you could record almost anything broadcast via terrestrial, cable, satellite, IPTV, etc. I'd love to have a recorder in my cable DVR boxes since the HDD is constantly overflowing. Those with kids can understand what I'm going through... :)

100k players sold @ $399 or 10 million sold @ $100. which do you think a CE company would prefer?The first if they will lose money on the second. :)

I think dual format players make a lot of sense

and there is no doubt that a really good high end hybrid player can be marketed at a low price point to make it a commercial success

I don't think waiting for one format to fail is a good strategy: I think some form of hybrid player and/or hybrid disc is inevitable

Sure there will be a few who want their particular format to win: that would mean years more of this format battle:

I say enough of this: none of the arguments of why one format should succeed or fail is that convincing to me: and there is the chance that both formats, the entire HD optical disc format, could fail if this debilitating battle continues

my opinion only

What I did not see mentioned is that sales persons will favor pushing dual format players in comparison to stand alone br players. Dual player might be a bit more expensive but has a big premium.
If that option is still too expensive for the customer they will happily sell a cheaper Toshiba.

I can see why panasonic is not happy and Pioneer is likely to follow up with a dual format player soon. Dual format players and the PS3 will kill their already abysmal br player sales.

LG, Onkyo, Samsung, Toshiba, xbox hddvd add on. The often mentioned br ce manufacturer advantage is evaporating very quickly...

Ugh, so many tired old arguments listed here. 1) The "two formats are responsible for every good thing ever" argument is a real gem (one of rjdam's favorites). Never get tired of hearing that flawed logic.Word of advice - make your points and and move on, instead of dawdling on more tiring personal inflections.

Two formats = less competition. The teams are not directly competing, but indirectly competing. This is bad. Ex: A $400 Toshiba Blu-ray player would have more effect on overall player prices than a $400 Toshiba HD DVD player. What we have now is "mini-monopolies" (especially with HD DVD: Toshiba and Universal).[/quotes]That's flawed more. You criticise one logical proposal by proposing a hypothetical situation that doesn't even exist except inside your daydreams.

[quote]2) Why do "blu" people hate dual format and "red" people like it? Because the perception is that in the short term only blu-ray has a chance of "winning" while HD DVD can at best stalemate. [quote]Sorry - you call that logic? Explain how you arrive at this conclusion? To use you belief that this is so as soundation for the rest of your theory is delusional.

As a direct response to your theory, I posit the hypothesis that in fact, dual format players create an alternative means of being able to play Bluray movies, while "hedging" against the potential failure of either format. Why they hate it, is because this "alternative" means also gives the ability to play the HD DVD movies also, which means sales for both formats.

HD DVD owners don't mind dual-format, because they know that HD DVD has the low end pricing covered already and Hybrid players will not get to that level for a period of time of between 1 and 2 years.

[quote]HD DVD's only winning strategy is to wait things out long term and hope that prices drop to ridiculous levels and studios start announcing neutrality (but not Universal)."to wait and hope"? You're kidding, right. The HD DVD side has been very proactive about introducing more products and more affordable prices as part of a specific and motivated strategy. You think the A2 and A20 happened by accident? pulleees.

Dual format players are basically like HD DVD life support. Wrong, they are like a bullet to the head of Bluray, whose players are too expensive, lack most of the features of HD DVD, and are not yet compliant with their own "proper" 1.1 minimum player standards - which they have now delayed because they still haven't figured it all out. Dual format players would cause them the world of grief.

Any short-term move towards neutrality is good for HD DVD but "bad" for blu-ray (but much more good for HD DVD than bad for Blu-ray). Short term? You're perhaps suggesting that LG and Samsung will withdraw these players from the market in October? You are suggesting that the other two vendor's bring out Universal players this year are just kidding?

So it's not all touchy-feely loveness: "why would anybody be against dual format players. Everybody wins!". Not true: dual format players necessarily cement two different formats. Having two different formats still sucks and no, we are not at a position where we can safely say both formats are here to stay.Wrong. They have the same sales now, and Sony has used up it's magic bullet already. They have also stretched their player spec till November to give themselves a little "time out", since it FORCED the Samsung to not be able to launch until this spec is finalised in October, whereas Samsung had originally planned to launch it in July.

Bluray has used up all their time outs - there are no more magic bullets - and they are falling behind again. Six months from now, you'll probably be HAPPY to hear someone say that there are definitely two formats in the game, because the alternative would be that there is only HD DVD.

3) Some people are just against two formats completely.True - they call them Bluray fans.

Look at all the damn confusion it's already causing. Then we have PS3s and Xboxes that only play certain movies, *everybody* has to buy a new player, etc. It would literally take several years before format became transparent to users (as in: you would buy a disc and it would just play on your player, no matter what). You say this, but then you are arguing against universal players, which ARE that transparent solution you say you pine for.

Dual format players/discs are a short term solution that solidify a long-term problem!Not so. IMO, they start the timer for the beginning of the end of two formats. Now BOTH formats will be supported, meaning consumers will pick the hardware/players they prefer and studios will pick the delivery format that makes the most sales and has the lowest costs - a clear economic decision.

Fact is, it is STILL too early to declare any format has won, lost, or is here to stay long term.But BD fans have been saying this all year. Clearly they were wrong, but by this time next year it will be clear who is winning. Mark my words and "add to favourites" my post :)

Blu's studio support is currently not resulting in too much more output compared to HD DVD. HD DVDs price advantage is shrinking and hasn't really proved to be much of a factor for the mass market. De Nile is a river...

BD-J is incomplete, so short term blu-ray player sales will likely be tepid, but PS3 salees will continue. You are missing the impact of bluray not being finished. People are starting to realize it wasn't ready for launch and was a big ol' fakeout.

The PS3 is doing poorly because Sony has focussed too much on promoting it as a video player, and not done enough to make it a valid game machine. Now that the initial demand has been satisfied, sales have slowed. Promoting it as a video player is not going to sell more PS3s.

Sony has forgotten what it's original strategy was, apperently. Sell millions of "Game Machines" that HAPPEN to have a Bluray player inside and sell some BD movies. Instead, they have focussed on trying to sell the PS3 as a BD Player, that just happens to play games. Wrong answer - they have lost sight of the strategy.

Meanwhile, users looking for a game machine and seeing the PS3 as a hugely overpriced monstrosity with little to no games - and then buying Wii's or Xbox 360s instead.

HD DVD still has a problem with big name new releases.Like the Matrix :p Yap.. uh huh... whatever :)

Sales are still so low that AVS members can acutally influence sales rankings. etc.Yep and Bluray is "so low" that little ol' AVS members can inlfluence HD DVD so that it blows Bluray sales out of the water? :p Is THAT what you meant?

Let's dust off the delusion for a second. The truth is the formats' sales levels are almost exactly the same right now - THIS is why a lil' ol' anniversary sale was able to blow Bluray off the map.

Much like the video game consoles, the outcome of this war (whatever it may be) looks like it will be decided this holiday season. [quote]Now THIS argument is very familiar. Remember "Just wait till the PS3 launches this Christmas! THAT's when Bluray will win - you'll see!" ? :p

Now we should wait on another year's Christmas to see the proof of the superior Bluray strategy? Look they've made a munge of their strategy at every step. This Christmas is not going to change anything, as HD DVD is now fully established and a vibrant market, in some ways more fundamentally rooted (with real standalone player owners) than Bluray.

[quote]Buy new year's 2008 we'll know the landscape, giving the CE companies and studios time to make necessary announcements during CES. I'm sure the BDA are BEGGING the studios to wait and make announcements at CES 2008, because if the studios decided right now, we ALL know what they'd say.

Trust me, they'll have made their decisions before CES 2008, whether they humour the BD camp by waiting till then to announce, who knows.

They'll look at the sales numbers and telegraph the outcome of the war with their announcements. Numbers that show the formats dead even.

If Universal and only Universal goes Neutral: Blu-ray wins. Dream on :)

If any one blu-ray studio goes neutral: we have a stalemate.Wrong. The balance is so tight right now, that if a SINGLE major studio blinked, the rest would follow. MGM, Fox, Disney are all critical. HD DVD is already matching BDF sales and if one of them moves, HD DVD would start moving ahead RAPIDLY.

If nobody changes any sides, we have a stalemate with a bias towards Blu-ray. If all studios but Sony go neutral: HD DVD wins.You seem to be focussed on the Studios as being the only factor in this "war". The studios are not the only factor. As the HD DVD prices continue to head even lower and pick up more mass market sales, HD DVD will continue to pull ahead.

I really do hope that somebody wins this thing. Never fear :)

I can easily see that by 2009 people won't bother with the format confusion mess and will just go with nice, simple downloads.I've got the fastest package my ISP offers, and a 25 Gig file would still take 3 to 4 days.

I agree that download are very popular, but the "ultimate quality" aspect is what sells shiny discs. There will always be a market for them, IMO, even if it is not as big as DVD.

Too much glue for me. :)

I know. But retailers and small studios will like this option, I guess.

And I worry about consumer confusion of which way to insert the disc. Now if the drives had lasers top and bottom... :)

True. But I look at TotalHD as a stop gap arrangement until BD dies away ;)

Seriously, once the volumes pickup they won't mind making both BD & HD DVD - like they do full screen and widescreen now. Remember they used to make full screen and widescreen as flippers earlier.

With DRM, you could record almost anything broadcast via terrestrial, cable, satellite, IPTV, etc. I'd love to have a recorder in my cable DVR boxes since the HDD is constantly overflowing. Those with kids can understand what I'm going through... :)

Is that a hope or do we have some agreements there ? I thought currently in the US most content thr' Satellite/cable can't be recorded i.e. the content has the 'don't copy' flag set.

Buy a BD standalone player, now, For $800, which is NOT compatible with the BD-Video 1.1 "standard player profile" which will be finally completed in October,
Oh my, the FUD is big here. :) Compliant BD players may also be introduced and shipped before that date. Shame on you, Keith.

My statement was completely accurate, as you have acknowledged by talking about "future" players, not yet released.

Accusing me of FUD for an completely correct and dead-accurate statement - just because it's the kind of truth that hurts - makes it look like this is a big issue after all.

Why is it that Sigma Design takes the whole Bluray think so personally?
Wonder what will you complain about when the new BD players roll out? :)Whatever else is still wrong with the format - and there's plenty more wrong... ;)

DVD-A vs. SACD. Two formats. Much confusion, eventually players played both but by then the public decided they liked the downloading format better: mp3. Sounds eerily like what migh happen in the next few years with video, doesn't it?Not even remotely.

Everyone in the industry learnt a lot from the SACD debacle. Everyone thought that users would beat a trail to their doorsteps for hi def audio, so they fought their two camps for years and made licensing difficult and expensive. Fully four years after they launched, I got my first Denon Universal Player for $1,500, and there was very little I wanted to buy available.

Further, so MANY of the SACD/DVD-As that I bought were hi def in name only, as the audio on many of them was so bad to begin with that I was disgusted when I flicked them out of the caddy and back on the shelf. Disgusted at the money I'd wasted. You had to really stay up to date to know which recordings were the good ones and I just didn't have the time.

This is actually one of the reasons I love HD DVD, the Movies on HD DVD, for whatever reason, are almost alway great quality.

Plus, people in general stopped listening to music by parking themselves between two exotic speakers for an hour. Instead, music evolved quite suddenly into a convenience, something to carry with you jogging, on the tube, everywhere. The iPod bloomed while HD Audio died.

This time around, folks can EASILY discern the difference between HiDef and SD. This wasn't always true of SACD/DVDA.

And the licensors are keen to get this stuff into peoples hands - HD DVD players are far cheaper already than SACD and DVDA players were, even years after their launch.

Doom and gloom types may go for the SACD/DVDA analogy, but I don't think it is at all the same. Did SACD and DVD-A combined ship 3 to 5 million discs in their FIRST YEAR? No way Jose. I'd be curious to know how long it took them to ship that much...

My question is what about dual format recorders?
Not so popular in the US - in fact a Panasonic boss called it "stupid" in a recent interview.. :o

100k players sold @ $399 or 10 million sold @ $100. which do you think a CE company would prefer?
Ahah! Puts it all in perspective :)

My statement was completely accurate, as you have acknowledged by talking about "future" players, not yet released.My first comment was about the October timetable. You made it seem that there will no BD players compliant to profile 1.1 before October. That is incorrect.

On the second point, I didn't feel think typing a lot. :) Many BD players support 1080p24 today, and many can be upgraded to support TrueHD and DTS-HD HR. These and DTS-HD MA support will likely be standard features on any BD player introduced after today.

Why is it that Sigma Design takes the whole Bluray thing so personally?
Whatever else is still wrong with the format - and there's plenty more wrong... ;)Why does anyone take anything about all this personally? :) I don't, I'm just correcting obvious errors as I come across them if they don't require too much effort.

I think dual format players make a lot of sense

and there is no doubt that a really good high end hybrid player can be marketed at a low price point to make it a commercial success

I don't think waiting for one format to fail is a good strategy: I think some form of hybrid player and/or hybrid disc is inevitable

Sure there will be a few who want their particular format to win: that would mean years more of this format battle:

I say enough of this: none of the arguments of why one format should succeed or fail is that convincing to me: and there is the chance that both formats, the entire HD optical disc format, could fail if this debilitating battle continues

my opinion onlyExcellent post, Mark.

Forunately, I think the heated debates will cool off significantly in the coming months as acceptance of the situation starts to settle in. Neither is going away anytime soon now, and it will increasingly come down to the manufacturers and the chipset providers making competitive products.

The first if they will lose money on the second. Then you'd best hope that all the competing chip-set providers agree with you ;)

My first comment was about the October timetable. You made it seem that there will no BD players compliant to profile 1.1 before October. That is incorrect.Fair enough, I can see your misunderstanding :) I'll put the "Buy a BD player ToDaY" in bold print next time :)

Do we really need another player in are rack?
LOL
:)
great read here btw
;)

100k players sold @ $399 or 10 million sold @ $100. which do you think a CE company would prefer?

Before or after such thinking destroyed profitability in the DVD player market for the CE? :p

If I were the Sony CEO, I would be getting more popular titles, like the currently available Casino Royale, out on Blu-Ray as fast as possible (think Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Alien, Titanic, Braveheart, etc.) - before the rise of the dual format players. I would also court Denon, Pioneer, Onkyo, Yamaha, and Panasonic - to release less expensive BD players with a more complete feature set (HDMI 1.3, DD TrueHD, DTS MA, etc.) Barring those actions - I think we are in for a format stalemate.

A stalemate likely means we will have to suffer through many dual-format players with mediocre performance - and various playback issues - all due to a lack of focused engineering on implementing one HD format really well. A stalemate will cause endless headaches and confusion - and will likely prolong the conversion from DVD to HD. It will also keep player prices artificially high while the manufacturers recoup their engineering expenses required to build the dual format players.

I think my dream player - a high-end Denon unit with CD / CD-R / CD-RW / CD with MP3s / DVD / DVD-R / DVD-RW / DVD with MP3s / DVD-Audio / SACD / Blu-Ray and HDMI 1.3 with decoded DD TrueHD and DTS-HD MA just went up in smoke. Oh the humanity!

Everyone in the industry learnt a lot from the SACD debacle. Everyone thought that users would beat a trail to their doorsteps for hi def audio, so they fought their two camps for years and made licensing difficult and expensive. Fully four years after they launched, I got my first Denon Universal Player for $1,500, and there was very little I wanted to buy available.

Or in my case, I waited until Pioneer had a $300 universal player before I jumped in, and waited to see if hi-rez music took off before investing big bucks in a high quality unit. Still waiting. :rolleyes:

Put in context of OP, the IP owners care the most about which format "wins" the format war. Studios want to sell the same movies in a new format, any format will do if it makes them $$$ (Sony excepted, of course). Members of this forum represent a statistically insignificant market segment. The mass market cares about price, period. HDTV sales had almost no market penetration until cheap flat-screens started showing up in big box stores.

If inexpensive BD/HD DVD universal players hit the shelves, they'll sell. If not, and consumers are forced to choose between two incompatible formats and software, neither format will "win" because the products will not gain mass acceptance in the marketplace. Just my $.02.

IMO, what will happen is enough players of both will make all the studios publish in both. When that happens the public and studios will favor the cheaper format, and Sony loses again!

Low price does not = Low Quality.

But I guess you've now made three posts saying that the quality is poor on these HD DVD machines just because they are cheaper.

Anyone who has an A1, which was 1/2 to 1/3 the price of the bluray players knows what I mean. This thing is built like a tank, and has absolutely UBER-quality video circuitry.

It is one of the few consumer pieces to pass some of the highest tests of analog video resolution detail at high frequencies, and to show absolutely ZERO chroma delay on either R,G, or B channels in the digital and analog outputs.

Contrast that with some of the more expensive units from other formats, HD or not.

If BR will not be able to compete on price, so be it, they lose the war.

But don't cast generalizations that just because something is more affordable then it must be inferior. Remember Honda and Toyota?

You need to get off of your HD DVD spin wagon. I never said the HD DVD players were lower quality than Blu Ray players. I seem notice that I said they were both low quality. Just look at the board here full of problems with the Tosh players and unhappy people. You see the same thing in the Blu Ray player forum as well. I never made generalizations. I'm an import car guy, I know all about Honda and Toyota. I was looking at the owner reported problems, and the lower quality components than I'm used to.

If I were the Sony CEO, I would be getting more popular titles, like the currently available Casino Royale, out on Blu-Ray as fast as possible (think Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Alien, Titanic, Braveheart, etc.) - before the rise of the dual format players. I would also court Denon, Pioneer, Onkyo, Yamaha, and Panasonic - to release less expensive BD players with a more complete feature set (HDMI 1.3, DD TrueHD, DTS MA, etc.) Barring those actions - I think we are in for a format stalemate.

I think Sony has used up their aces, if they could wield that kind of influence, FOX wouldn't be holding out for better copy protection, Warner wouldn't be holding out for BDJ, and Samsung wouldn't have gone neutral. I'm sure a lot of BD only CE supporters are wondering just how if the hell they are going to make a nickel off of BD now.



A stalemate likely means we will have to suffer through many dual-format players with mediocre performance - and various playback issues - all due to a lack of focused engineering on implementing one HD format really well.

Not to be rude, but this is a fairly apt description of where BD will be come fall anyway, when new standards are introduced. I wouldn't give up hope that there can be better hybrids than the single-format players of either format now.

I also gotta say, that I think that hybrids are the easiest thing for the consumer to adopt and understand. It's really the hyper-geeks that think they're favorite spec is on the chopping-block that causes confusion. If consumers can play any disk, and it looks and sounds great, and won't be useless in 12-18 months, they aren't going to worry about anything but price, and that will go down as sales go up.

100k players sold @ $399 or 10 million sold @ $100. which do you think a CE company would prefer?

No, I'm sorry, I was a bit obscure in my commentary. What was funny (to me) was what I saw as your underlying assumption that any company would voluntarily (i.e., without being forced to by competition) lower prices (quickly) in order to penetrate a marketplace. Generally speaking, if a company can afford (competitively speaking) to slow the rate of their price decreases, they do so. The prime reason for so doing, typically involves the amortization of PPE and R&D.

So, call me a cynic, if you could point out a couple of representative situations where the manufacturer of a product (with little or no competition) has lowered the price of their good early in its product life-cycle in order to capture market share, that could be an instructive conversation.

The answer to your question is, quite frankly, that depends. Specifically, it depends upon the kind of margin $ (and %) the CE company is making at $399/unit and what kind of margin $ (and %), if any, they're making at $100. Generally speaking, most companies have this thing called a corporate hurdle rate, such that selling 10 million $100 units at a $5/unit (5%) margin (with all of the capital, support, complexity, and liability that entails) would likely be less preferable than selling 100k $399 units at $50/unit (12%) margin. Simply put, top line (revenue) growth only matters for a while, at some point the bottom line (profitability) matters more.

<<Plus, people in general stopped listening to music by parking themselves between two exotic speakers for an hour. Instead, music evolved quite suddenly into a convenience, something to carry with you jogging, on the tube, everywhere. The iPod bloomed while HD Audio died.>>

Actually, some of us have been doing just that for years. So. maybe I should give up my cherished listening sessions after work and plug into compressed mp3s...

I don't think so!

I just got the latest installment of the Adelaide Wagner's Ring Cycle on SACD. It sounds fabulous! My SACD collection keeps growing while new machines with SACD playback are all over the place. I hope, when my time comes, to be as busy a cadaver as SACD is! (The new NAD player is one sweet toy!)

Music -real music- will never be "a convenience" meant to deaden subway noise or an anesthetic for those who are too bored to exercise otherwise. And just consider that there is great interest in squeezing video into those stamp-sized ipod screens. If that becomes the rule, I guess that those who "park themselves in front of exotic HD video gear" will also be seen by some as a dying breed.

I say, enjoy whatever makes you feel awake and alive while you can!!! Buy into whatever makes you happy. It's just a piece of equipment. What counts is the enjoyment you get from it, not its unavoidable obsolescence. Unless your job forces you to do it, why fight and agonize over formats?

Besides, after the dual LG player, the floodgates are open. Samsung is talking about their upcoming universal Blue/HD machine and probably most others will follow suit.

Sometimes, things actually sort themselves out in a good way!

LS

Word of advice - make your points and and move on, instead of dawdling on more tiring personal inflections.

Check. I'll take your route and start by sounding like a pompous ass instead.

As a direct response to your theory, I posit the hypothesis that in fact, dual format players create an alternative means of being able to play Bluray movies, while "hedging" against the potential failure of either format. Why they hate it, is because this "alternative" means also gives the ability to play the HD DVD movies also, which means sales for both formats.

HD DVD owners don't mind dual-format, because they know that HD DVD has the low end pricing covered already and Hybrid players will not get to that level for a period of time of between 1 and 2 years.

"to wait and hope"? You're kidding, right. The HD DVD side has been very proactive about introducing more products and more affordable prices as part of a specific and motivated strategy. You think the A2 and A20 happened by accident? pulleees.

But that pricing strategy hasn't helped them snuff Blu-ray, or even manage to marginally beat them (overall disc sales).

Wrong, they are like a bullet to the head of Bluray, whose players are too expensive, lack most of the features of HD DVD, and are not yet compliant with their own "proper" 1.1 minimum player standards - which they have now delayed because they still haven't figured it all out. Dual format players would cause them the world of grief.

The only thing dual format is a bullet for is having a single unified format in any reasonable time frame. If everybody is buying hybrid players it *eliminates the HD DVD price advantage* while still maintaing the Blu-ray studio advantage. Thanks to the PS3 (which, as a movie player, blows all standalones away in terms of sales), there will always be more people out there who can play only Blu-ray than who can play both.

Short term? You're perhaps suggesting that LG and Samsung will withdraw these players from the market in October? You are suggesting that the other two vendor's bring out Universal players this year are just kidding?

No, I'm suggesting that it's the only positive thing that can happen with HD DVD right until the "magic price drop" hits. Seriously, what long term strategy does HD DVD have up its sleeve other than being an unspecified amount cheapr than Blu-ray? Answer: none. All other HD DVD advantages are short term (theoretically evaporating in 6 months).

Wrong. They have the same sales now, and Sony has used up it's magic bullet already. They have also stretched their player spec till November to give themselves a little "time out", since it FORCED the Samsung to not be able to launch until this spec is finalised in October, whereas Samsung had originally planned to launch it in July.

The Playstation 3 has not been "used up" if anything, the fact that even performing well below expectations is still allowing Blu-ray to outsell HD DVD is a very bad sign (especially since PS3 owners don't buy Blu-ray discs blah blah blah). Put it this way: what do you *honestly* think will sell more this holiday season: PS3s or HD DVD standalones? What, pray-tell, is HD DVDs magic bullet? It's seems to the attrition bullet. Just hold on long enough and get entrenched and pray that Blu-ray doesn't keep closing the pricing gap. What kind of strategy is that? None.

Bluray has used up all their time outs - there are no more magic bullets - and they are falling behind again. Six months from now, you'll probably be HAPPY to hear someone say that there are definitely two formats in the game, because the alternative would be that there is only HD DVD.

Damn that's delusional thinking. Based on a few weeks during which a concerted effort to manipulated sales figures and now HD DVD is suddenly the sales leader? What the hell? Did you not notice on that graph I'm sure you're referring to that the slope of the HD DVD curve is pointing very strongly down while the Blu-ray slope is pointing up?

You say this, but then you are arguing against universal players, which ARE that transparent solution you say you pine for.

They are only transparent if you already have one! How long before stores only had a "HD media" section that WAS NOT separated by format? 1 year? 2 years? At what point could you assume that the vast majority of people have dual players? It would literally take 2-3 years based on all the standalone sales we already have AND the PS3 factor. Stores simply won't allow it to be transparent. You're thinking like an AVS guy and not J6P. As long as those two sections still exist, there is still a war, dual format players be damned.

Not so. IMO, they start the timer for the beginning of the end of two formats. Now BOTH formats will be supported, meaning consumers will pick the hardware/players they prefer and studios will pick the delivery format that makes the most sales and has the lowest costs - a clear economic decision.

This is a clever way of saying: everything will become HD DVD because HD DVD discs are cheaper to produce. The problem with that logic is that if being cheaper was all the studios cared about, why wouldn't they have all supported HD DVD in the first place? Blu-ray discs will continue to get cheaper to produce with time.. it will largely be a moot difference by the time dual format players took hold (2-3 years). Plus, EVERY player would be obsolete at that point. It would simply mean that your HD DVD library you are so worried about protecting would still be relevant. But at the price of having two formats? Is it really worth it in the long run?

But BD fans have been saying this all year. Clearly they were wrong, but by this time next year it will be clear who is winning. Mark my words and "add to favourites" my post :)

People on this forum on both sides say ridiculous things all the time. Who cares? Everybody has been wrong about something so far.

De Nile is a river...

Classy.

You are missing the impact of bluray not being finished. People are starting to realize it wasn't ready for launch and was a big ol' fakeout.

They launched earlier than they anticipated to counter HD DVD. Are there people that don't realize this is why a few early discs had crappy quality and the BD-J stuff wasn't quite finished? People bought lots of players already. It will have an effect until the first compliant or stated-to-be-upgradable-to-complaint player hits, which would be in 6 months MAX. The PS3 alone will probably keep pace with HD DVD players during this period.

The PS3 is doing poorly because Sony has focussed too much on promoting it as a video player, and not done enough to make it a valid game machine. Now that the initial demand has been satisfied, sales have slowed. Promoting it as a video player is not going to sell more PS3s.

I don't think Sony actively promotes it as a video player. More of a multi-purpose thing/video game player. It is a great feature of the PS3 that it plays BD... are they suppossed to hide this fact?

Sony has forgotten what it's original strategy was, apperently. Sell millions of "Game Machines" that HAPPEN to have a Bluray player inside and sell some BD movies. Instead, they have focussed on trying to sell the PS3 as a BD Player, that just happens to play games. Wrong answer - they have lost sight of the strategy.

I have never seen an ad for the PS3 that puts Blu-ray before gaming. You're talking out your ass. There's a lack of titles just like there is with every new console (happened with Xbox last year, happening to Wii and PS3 right now).

[QUOTE=rdjam]Meanwhile, users looking for a game machine and seeing the PS3 as a hugely overpriced monstrosity with little to no games - and then buying Wii's or Xbox 360s instead.

As long as the PS3 is outselling HD DVD standalones or at least keeping pace, the Blu-ray aspect of Sony's strategy is working. The PS3 will have to be a total outright failure (as in Sony literally discontinues the machine) for the positive effects of the PS3 to be eliminated. As the PSP has shown, Sony has a knack for giving it's products long legs even when seemingly trounced by the competition.

Like the Matrix :p Yap.. uh huh... whatever :)

Wow, last I checked the Matrix came out years ago and is not an HD DVD exclusive. Clearly you don't have any idea what the term "new" means. Casino Royale was "new" and look what happened there. Old catalog titles won't decide this war.

Yep and Bluray is "so low" that little ol' AVS members can inlfluence HD DVD so that it blows Bluray sales out of the water? :p Is THAT what you meant?

"blows out of the water" by spiking Amazon sales for a week? What planet do you live on where these little blips are huge statements. Why did the Departed sell more on Blu-ray total when it sold better on Amazon? Could it be that Amazon is not representative of the market as a whole? Couldn't be that...

Let's dust off the delusion for a second. The truth is the formats' sales levels are almost exactly the same right now - THIS is why a lil' ol' anniversary sale was able to blow Bluray off the map.

I'll dust off this HD DVD chestnut: There were no big, exclusive releases for Blu-ray this week. For christ's sake, it was a goddamn Discovery channel DVD that did this... not exactly a representative title of most movie buyers. And stop using your hyperbole... "real" sales figures aren't even out yet. Nothing is being blown but hot air from you.

Much like the video game consoles, the outcome of this war (whatever it may be) looks like it will be decided this holiday season. Now THIS argument is very familiar. Remember "Just wait till the PS3 launches this Christmas! THAT's when Bluray will win - you'll see!" ? :p

And when the PS3 came out Blu-ray did win (for that time period). For many months. And sales manipulations aside, it continues to do so.

Now we should wait on another year's Christmas to see the proof of the superior Bluray strategy? Look they've made a munge of their strategy at every step. This Christmas is not going to change anything, as HD DVD is now fully established and a vibrant market, in some ways more fundamentally rooted (with real standalone player owners) than Bluray.

I'm sure the BDA are BEGGING the studios to wait and make announcements at CES 2008, because if the studios decided right now, we ALL know what they'd say.

They'd say: both formats sell pretty much the same. Blu-ray still has more support and still has evidence of bigger new release sales. And nobody would do anything. Universal would stay put and the BDA guys would stay put. No change.

Trust me, they'll have made their decisions before CES 2008, whether they humour the BD camp by waiting till then to announce, who knows.

Numbers that show the formats dead even.

Last numbers I saw announced a total disc lead for Blu-ray after coming from behind. Even showing dead even numbers isn't saying much.

Dream on :)

Wrong. The balance is so tight right now, that if a SINGLE major studio blinked, the rest would follow. MGM, Fox, Disney are all critical. HD DVD is already matching BDF sales and if one of them moves, HD DVD would start moving ahead RAPIDLY.

Yeah, right. Universal won't move but somehow the BDA is like little fragile dominos where somehow the probability of 3 studios going neutral is larger than one studio going neutral. Keep telling yourself that probabilities aren't real... Couldn't have been Fox temporarily withdrawing from the market and no big name Disney releases that could have caused this, could it have been?

You seem to be focussed on the Studios as being the only factor in this "war". The studios are not the only factor. As the HD DVD prices continue to head even lower and pick up more mass market sales, HD DVD will continue to pull ahead.

Pay attention, I said holdiay sales will decide the fate and that the studios will look at those sales and make announcements accordingly. That's the whole point anyway. If sales are such that no studio was compelled to make any motions either way, then obviously things are at some sort of stalemate.

I've got the fastest package my ISP offers, and a 25 Gig file would still take 3 to 4 days.

That's why I said 2009 and not 2007, champ. Bandwidth and codecs efficiency will improve in two years.

I agree that download are very popular, but the "ultimate quality" aspect is what sells shiny discs. There will always be a market for them, IMO, even if it is not as big as DVD.

True, there will always be "a" market, but it's what kind of market. Go ask the music industry how that's working out for them, the whole "shiny discs are better quality and will sell more" angle. Seems to be working out real well for them...

Some believe dual format players help Blu-ray. The dual format players combined with PS3 and projected BD-only player sales make lot of BD-capable players out there, so publishing movies in BD could end up being the safest thing to do.
Well, the point though is it was Blu-ray's battle to lose. If all had been hunky dory in the Blu-ray camp and the PS3 were on schedule, with BD50 out of the gate or with H.264 and/or VC-1 commonplace out of the gate, and with the 1.1 profile ready at launch, etc. then HD DVD would already be dead.

However, the Blu-ray group fumbled on multiple fronts, and HD DVD grabbed the ball and went with it, to achieve that stalemate it needed.

Dual-format players only help HD DVD from this perspective, especially when the makers of said players are former Blu-ray exclusive manufacturers. The bosses of the remaining Blu-ray exclusive manufacturers must be both livid and nervous.

I personally think that if dual-format players become the norm, the smaller studios will gravitate to cost savings and that means a preference for HD DVDs.

IMO, what will happen is enough players of both will make all the studios publish in both.
If people can play both why would a studio release both?

When that happens the public and studios will favor the cheaper format, and Sony loses again!

wouldn't the HD DVD cost more? the studio needs two disks because 30 is not enough. They need to pay the exorbitant combo disks. Less security on the disk. Many have BD players, many have combos no one has HD DVD only

Music -real music- will never be "a convenience" meant to deaden subway noise or an anesthetic for those who are too bored to exercise otherwise. And just consider that there is great interest in squeezing video into those stamp-sized ipod screens. If that becomes the rule, I guess that those who "park themselves in front of exotic HD video gear" will also be seen by some as a dying breed.

I say, enjoy whatever makes you feel awake and alive while you can!!! Buy into whatever makes you happy. It's just a piece of equipment. What counts is the enjoyment you get from it, not its unavoidable obsolescence. Unless your job forces you to do it, why fight and agonize over formats?

Besides, after the dual LG player, the floodgates are open. Samsung is talking about their upcoming universal Blue/HD machine and probably most others will follow suit.

Sometimes, things actually sort themselves out in a good way!

LS

I feel for you, and you make music appreciation sound very enticing :)

Like most everyone else music has become the permissible distraction to whatever task I'm engaged in, but I did used to listen just to listen :(

I think you may be right about things working themselves out, with each passing week the number of people resigned to hybrids increases.

I like dual format players. I do not like their lack of full features or high prices.

I very strongly prefer all studios to be format neutral.

-Robert

If people can play both why would a studio release both?

wouldn't the HD DVD cost more? the studio needs two disks because 30 is not enough. They need to pay the exorbitant combo disks. Less security on the disk. Many have BD players, many have combos no one has HD DVD only
No need for combos.

Only need HD30 for 99.9 of titles, and that is inexpensive and easily made by 3rd party replicators with no dubious morality limitations.

And if they really do want combos, it's not even an option for Blu-ray at this time.

If people can play both why would a studio release both?

wouldn't the HD DVD cost more? the studio needs two disks because 30 is not enough. They need to pay the exorbitant combo disks. Less security on the disk. Many have BD players, many have combos no one has HD DVD only

AnthonyP ...don't dumb yourself down to make an argument. 30GB not being enough is your "subjective" opinion and using loaded words like "exorbitant" to describe combo discs that you really have no clue what they cost smacks of desperation.

After 16k posts I'd expect more from you. Dual format players are fine for consumers. They know they can play all the best selling formats. CD/DVD/HD DVD/Blu-ray. You guys who are looking for your Hydra checks will have to be a bit more savvy about explaining to me why you thought Blu-ray last year at $1300 was such a bargain but that a $999 Samsung Universal is suddently not a good deal. Don't say PS3 please..that's bunk.

<<Plus, people in general stopped listening to music by parking themselves between two exotic speakers for an hour. Instead, music evolved quite suddenly into a convenience, something to carry with you jogging, on the tube, everywhere. The iPod bloomed while HD Audio died.>>

Actually, some of us have been doing just that for years. So. maybe I should give up my cherished listening sessions after work and plug into compressed mp3s...

I don't think so!

Music -real music- will never be "a convenience"

If that becomes the rule, I guess that those who "park themselves in front of exotic HD video gear" will also be seen by some as a dying breed.

LSFear not! It was a generalization :)

I myself enjoy parking myself between a few speakers also - that's why I have my Magneplanars, and trust me, you have to park yourself in just the right place, but it's worth it!

But as a generalization (oh no, I'm going to scr*w myself with another generalization! :eek: ), the mass market went the other direction.

Yes, I had one of the original Sony Walkman players (I think I was 17 or so) but just never got into carrying around a "clunky" (as I saw it) tape or, later on, CD player. Sure I bought a few, but I never found it convenient enough and I always wondered about friends who showed up everywhere with a back-sack full of tapes or discs (oh no, someone else is *bound* to be upset by that too! :eek: ).

But when the iPod Nano came out, I bought three, and two mini-stand sound systems for the patio and den. The convenience factor went up by a quantum. This is the only reason I used the iPod as an example - didn't mean to offend anyone (myself included) who also enjoys good music on real speakers. :o :)

Dual format players are a nice short term solution (I can play any disc) but it solidifies the problem of having two formats in the first place. For some of us, the priority is to have one format (pick one, doesn't matter) because it has many long term benefits over a dual-format market.

I fail to understand why they can't just make all the players read all formats from now on. HD disks are cheaper to make (but not that much cheaper, and this price difference will shrink), but BD are supposedly more rugged. Why not let the studios use the disk formats that they choose, and if all players will play them, then you don't have to worry about choosing a disk format. The main thing that is preventing me from entering the HD market is that if I choose the wrong format, I could end up with thousands of dollars worth of disks that will not play once players of that format are no longer made. If all players are dual, and will continue to be dual, then the software won't become useless for the losing side, and I'd enter the market within the next year.

Word of advice - make your points and and move on, instead of dawdling on more tiring personal inflections. Check. I'll take your route and start by sounding like a pompous ass instead.Clearly, you're better at it than me. Good to see you taking the advice though. :rolleyes: I realize now that the phrase I was groping for was "personal invectives"

No point in addresing the rest of your post. I've already outlined my thoughts - no one's forcing you to agree with me, nor I with you. ;)

AnthonyP ...don't dumb yourself down to make an argument. 30GB not being enough is your "subjective" opinion and using loaded words like "exorbitant" to describe combo discs that you really have no clue what they cost smacks of desperation.
I know what they cost 5$ more for no reason :), for the replicator youy are right, just that they are more then BD50. But funny how you did not have an issue with people not knowing replicator/mastering costs talking about how much more expensive BD25 was compared to HD DVD. Which has ended up proven as total BS

After 16k posts I'd expect more from you. Dual format players are fine for consumers. They know they can play all the best selling formats. CD/DVD/HD DVD/Blu-ray. You guys who are looking for your Hydra checks will have to be a bit more savvy about explaining to me why you thought Blu-ray last year at $1300 was such a bargain but that a $999 Samsung Universal is suddently not a good deal. Don't say PS3 please..that's bunk

my post did not even have anything to do with dual players. It was a response to something real dumb. On the other hand why not discuss the PS3. The point is simple, it costs less to buy two players then one combo and so far they have been much better.

People like the OP ask why are BD supporters against them. But I think Wayne is the only honest person here, by admitting he is for them because of a delusional idea that if universal players are common enough they might convince studios to go HD DVD.

Low price does not = Low Quality. [snip]

But don't cast generalizations that just because something is more affordable then it must be inferior. Remember Honda and Toyota?

Strangely enough, Toyota recalled more cars than they sold last year. Hyped up reputation is more important than actual quality of your product. If you make everyone think it's great, it doesn't really matter if it's a piece of junk.

AnthonyP ...don't dumb yourself down to make an argument. 30GB not being enough is your "subjective" opinion and using loaded words like "exorbitant" to describe combo discs that you really have no clue what they cost smacks of desperation.

After 16k posts I'd expect more from you. Dual format players are fine for consumers. They know they can play all the best selling formats. CD/DVD/HD DVD/Blu-ray. You guys who are looking for your Hydra checks will have to be a bit more savvy about explaining to me why you thought Blu-ray last year at $1300 was such a bargain but that a $999 Samsung Universal is suddently not a good deal. Don't say PS3 please..that's bunk.

I gotta say that $999 is a stinger if your trying to pull in those who are iffy enough to have avoided picking-up one or both stand-alone $350-$600 players; but I doubt the price will stay put for long. The XA2 I recently bought was just over half of it's original list.

I was hoping for a $900 hybrid that people could lay hands on for $699 by X-mas.

To continue the discussion:

As I posted in another thread. I believe the CE companies will move towards dual format players as this is the last avenue of profit that has not been rapidly exhausted in the CE hi-def world. Toshiba has already depressed the HD-DVD price. PS3 is depressing the Blu-Ray price (feature set wise, 1080p, HDMI 1.3, rumored advance audio and 1080p/24).

So if your target is to make a best selling player you have to beat Toshiba on the HD-DVD side and sell a player for $250? $199? Probably not a large amount of profit unless the thing hits mass market immediately. Conversely, to make a standalone that beats the PS3 dollar/value (1080p) is also hard on the Blu-Ray side. You would have to go $499, $399 with a rich feature set.

Common sense says milking early adopters once again with high priced dual formats is obviously the best way for a relatively neutral CE company to make money right now. I fully expect the panasonics, pioneers, and others to have their dual offerings waiting in the wings. I wouldn't expect Sony or Toshiba to go dual format ever.

Strangely enough, Toyota recalled more cars than they sold last year. Hyped up reputation is more important than actual quality of your product. If you make everyone think it's great, it doesn't really matter if it's a piece of junk.
Car analogies always suck, but recalls happen for many different reasons, many of which are minor or even not problems at all. I had a recall so they could install a free trunk cargo net.

In the case of lower-priced players, I suspect many will suck, but I also suspect that after a couple of firmware updates the Samsung dual-format should be fine. We won't know until several months after its release, but Samsung generally makes reasonable products with reasonable quality, for reasonable prices. Most Samsung products aren't top tier high-priced items, but that's the point... In the case of a format war, the most important product release might just be a reasonably priced dual-format player.

Too bad that I'm guessing that even the Samsung dual-format player will be priced too high for the masses. Mind you, I can forgive them for that, considering that it's a 1st gen. dual-format player.

Strangely enough, Toyota recalled more cars than they sold last year. Hyped up reputation is more important than actual quality of your product. If you make everyone think it's great, it doesn't really matter if it's a piece of junk.

That's pretty-much SONY in a nutshell for me.

My $6000 SONY front projector's "dust-proof" optical panels turned out to be anything but.

The $600 LCD VLP projector lamp bit the dust at about 25% of it's projected lifespan

My SONY surround-sound amp had a 3 second delay when you hopped from chapter to chapter.

and my Sony second-gen DVD player didn't care for 70% of the DVD-Rs I bought or burned.

I didn't feel any particular hostility toward Sony until I got burned enough times, and got no satisfaction from their customer service, prior to that I thought they were pretty much the most reliable name in electronics.

However, in a year or two when I replace my LCD projector, if they have the best model in my price range I'll consider it, but I'll read a buttload of reviews first.

I wouldn't expect Sony or Toshiba to go dual format ever.

I would, at least Toshiba, it all depends if they are put in the ironic position of making more money by partially joining the opposition instead of fighting it.

I fail to understand why they can't just make all the players read all formats from now on. HD disks are cheaper to make (but not that much cheaper, and this price difference will shrink), but BD are supposedly more rugged. Why not let the studios use the disk formats that they choose, and if all players will play them, then you don't have to worry about choosing a disk format. The main thing that is preventing me from entering the HD market is that if I choose the wrong format, I could end up with thousands of dollars worth of disks that will not play once players of that format are no longer made. If all players are dual, and will continue to be dual, then the software won't become useless for the losing side, and I'd enter the market within the next year.

You're right in theory, but the point is that the road to "dual" is messy and long. Toshiba probably won't budge for a while. Sony definitely would be the last to go dual. And thus, stores will still need to make the two formats distinct for many years. The confusion to J6P would still exist (why are there two kinds of movies in the store? Can my new Toshiba player play all movies? Can my new Sony player play all movies? etc.). Not exactly conducive to impulse wal-mart purchases by grandma, which is the kind of purchases that will take things to DVD levels.

I will say this: dual format players are the best thing for the enthusiast if the format war is trully unwinnable by either camp. I guess a lot of people are rooting for "stalemate" for various reasons. it's kind of like "everybody wins because we all lose a little bit" thinking.

I'd rather not see laserdisc 2.0 but instead see DVD 2.0, but that's just me.

Man, I really wish Blu-ray didn't rush their launch or that HD DVD secured more studio support or gotten triple layer working by launch. This whole debate would be moot right now...

Triple layer wouldn't have helped HD DVD much. The extra space is irrelevant in most cases. (Yes, there are some outlier cases where the extra space comes in handy, but this is lost on most end users.)

Sure, stores may stock both, but in terms of basic usage, if a dual-format player plays both formats well and without significant glitches, then it's basically transparent to the user. It doesn't matter to the end user, and they don't have to think about it.

I will say this: dual format players are the best thing for the enthusiast if the format war is trully unwinnable by either camp. I guess a lot of people are rooting for "stalemate" for various reasons. it's kind of like "everybody wins because we all lose a little bit" thinking.

That's pretty much the basis of compromise. It's not really a terrible thing.

now who will put out the first SD, HD DVD, BD, UMD, CD, VMD, VCD, MP3, player :D

Does anyone own UMDs? :p

And isn't VMD basically completely irrelevant?

I just thought I'd mention that some folks have compared the format war to SACD vs DVD-A. Whether or not that is a valid comparison, one of the main reasons cited for high resolution audio formats failing to capture the market is the advent of the IPod and other portable music. i.e. people just don't have the time (attention span) to sit and listen to an album-length of quality music.

Well, IMHO, as long as people take the time to sit and watch movies, then one, the other, or both of HD-DVD and BD will survive and prosper. However, if people start taking to portable video the way consumers have taken to portable/disposable audio, then we are the last generation of videophiles: after this, five minute videos a la YouTube may be all that anyone has the attention span for. And the human race will have died a little bit more...

shinksma

Gentlemen (and ladies if any), some excellent reading and contributions here. Unfortunately due to work I have been unable to participate. No matter, all of my points have been made by now.

To Padriac: your point is that a dual format player prolongs the existance of two formats, and that is your main concern (correct me if I'm wrong). You wish for one format (and I think most sensible people given a choice would as well) but how do you propose to acheive this goal? The fact is, right or wrong, we have BD and HD on our hands now. If you assume that neither format is going anywhere, would a universal player not be the next best solution?

Thanks again to all :)

Well, IMHO, as long as people take the time to sit and watch movies, then one, the other, or both of HD-DVD and BD will survive and prosper. However, if people start taking to portable video the way consumers have taken to portable/disposable audio, then we are the last generation of videophiles: after this, five minute videos a la YouTube may be all that anyone has the attention span for. And the human race will have died a little bit more...
shinksma

I think you may have touched on one of the reasons "special interactive features" don't appeal to me all that much. I picture people treating a movie like a video-game, and never just taking it in from beginning to end.

Whatever happened to just surrendering to someone else's vision for a couple hours?

I'd rather take in the art before I take in the process.

And isn't VMD basically completely irrelevant?


Who knows, it's cheap, and as Sony says we are "cheap people" ;)

"Competition, for lack of a better word, is good..."

Something like the oil companies?

Seriously, I think dual format players are good, if they can make HD Disks competitive with regular DVD's. What everyone is missing, is the real competition is between HD Disks and regular DVD's. Personally, I believe that one format is the only way to go, because the current single format studio's will not become format neutral, due to the cost of setting up new assembly lines for a second format run and lost profits for doing so. They'll just release in their own original format because their belief that their disks can play in the dual format players and their own format players as well, will keep them alive in a niche market. With the way the format war is currently going, it will keep Blu Ray ahead, but with only a partial victory, while HD DVD will hang on with a lesser opportunity to gain significant market share. Both will eventually lose out, because J6P will just maintain his regular $39.00 DVD player and buy software out of the $5.50 bin at his local Walmart. For HD Disks to take off, we need cheaper disks to appear, to allow the HD format(s) to compete with standard DVD's in price. We are battling each other, when we should be battling standard DVD for better A/V results for all.

Heh. I hear ya, Tim.

Seriously though, VMD not that cheap in the long run because it's a 4-layer format in its ideal HD form. Furthermore, plain DVD is still cheaper, and DVD is sufficient for the "cheap" market.


Seriously, I think dual format players are good, if they can make HD Disks competitive with regular DVD's. What everyone is missing, is the real competition is between HD Disks and regular DVD's. Personally, I believe that one format is the only way to go, because the current single format studio's will not become format neutral, due to the cost of setting up new assembly lines for a second format run and lost profits for doing so. They'll just release in their own original format because their belief that their disks can play in the dual format players and their own format players as well, will keep them alive in a niche market. With the way the format war is currently going, it will keep Blu Ray ahead, but with only a partial victory, while HD DVD will hang on with a lesser opportunity to gain significant market share. Both will eventually lose out, because J6P will just maintain his regular $39.00 DVD player and buy software out of the $5.50 bin at his local Walmart. For HD Disks to take off, we need cheaper disks to appear, to allow the HD format(s) to compete with standard DVD's in price. We are battling each other, when we should be battling standard DVD for better A/V results for all.
I note that Children of Men on DVD (not HD DVD) here is CAD$27 (US$24). I also note that the guys down south pay US$25 for that title on HD DVD (not DVD), and it's a combo disc no less. :)

P.S. While your point is valid, I do point out that HD DVD and DVD can use the same stamping lines.

P.S. While your point is valid, I do point out that HD DVD and DVD can use the same stamping lines.

I grant you that, but all of the Research and Development money spent on each format will not be forgotten, especially by Sony, who have both a software and hardware angle on who they support. As a BD supporter, I would love to buy Children Of Men and The Good Shepard, but will wait to see it on HBO or Movie Central, here in Canada. What really pissed me off, is when Walmart raised the price of HD DVD's and BD's recently, here in Ontario. We had many tittles for $23.88 and they raised them to $27.88 and some as high as $29.88, for titles from their catalogue's from past years. New releases are similarly priced with standard DVD's.

Something like the oil companies?

Seriously, I think dual format players are good, if they can make HD Disks competitive with regular DVD's. What everyone is missing, is the real competition is between HD Disks and regular DVD's. Personally, I believe that one format is the only way to go, because the current single format studio's will not become format neutral, due to the cost of setting up new assembly lines for a second format run and lost profits for doing so. They'll just release in their own original format because their belief that their disks can play in the dual format players and their own format players as well, will keep them alive in a niche market. With the way the format war is currently going, it will keep Blu Ray ahead, but with only a partial victory, while HD DVD will hang on with a lesser opportunity to gain significant market share.


It's hard to be sure because a whole lot of smaller labels are staying out of the game, and if they can enter without fear of alienating half of their base, they will enter on the format that is most economically feasible. So far that's HD DVD. If Image, Anchor Bay, Criterion, think the coast is clear, they alone could provide an extra couple releases per week.

There is no way around it, this is going to take time, and your not going to kick DVD butt with only 15-25% HDTV penetration anyway.

This is probably already welcome news for the porn market, because if Hybrids dominated they could tell BD to go screw permanently.

I've been at war with a lot of the HD DVD fanboys, lately. I wish that we could all see that we have something in common. We want our format to be the only format. I would rather work with these people, then argue with these people. I'm finding that there are few, if any, that you can change their mind about their chosen format. I remember two years before the format war began, that AVS Forum, had a banner saying "One HD DVD Format Only". The big Audio Video suppliers did not listen. Are they listening now? Apparently not. Our war is not with the other format! It is against standard DVD. Until we get that across to all involved with this format war, it will be costly for all involved. We will all be forced to either buy a second HD Disk player to play the other format or buy a dual format player. Our initial purchase will be quickly disregarded, or discounted, and more money will be flushed down the toilet. We also get to spend more on our software because we are really competing against ourselves, or, ourselves in the mirror. I, for one, hate spending $32.88 for a title that someone using standard DVD is paying $5.50 for. Until this stupid war is ended, we'll all pay dearly for our passions.

I've been at war with a lot of the HD DVD fanboys, lately. I wish that we could all see that we have something in common. We want our format to be the only format. I would rather work with these people, then argue with these people. I'm finding that there are few, if any, that you can change their mind about their chosen format. I remember two years before the format war began, that AVS Forum, had a banner saying "One HD DVD Format Only". The big Audio Video suppliers did not listen. Are they listening now? Apparently not. Our war is not with the other format! It is against standard DVD. Until we get that across to all involved with this format war, it will be costly for all involved. We will all be forced to either buy a second HD Disk player to play the other format or buy a dual format player. Our initial purchase will be quickly disregarded, or discounted, and more money will be flushed down the toilet. We also get to spend more on our software because we are really competing against ourselves, or, ourselves in the mirror. I, for one, hate spending $32.88 for a title that someone using standard DVD is paying $5.50 for. Until this stupid war is ended, we'll all pay dearly for our passions.

If your looking to extend the "olive branch" you might start by refraining from calling those who chose the opposite format fanboys, and reconsider your 24 point teal One HD Disk Format Only And It's Not HD DVD! ;)

If your looking to extend the "olive branch" you might start by refraining from calling those who chose the opposite format fanboys, and reconsider your 24 point teal One HD Disk Format Only And It's Not HD DVD! You must have read my mind! I changed it just before you printed this quote!

I grant you that, but all of the Research and Development money spent on each format will not be forgotten, especially by Sony, who have both a software and hardware angle on who they support. As a BD supporter, I would love to buy Children Of Men and The Good Shepard, but will wait to see it on HBO or Movie Central, here in Canada. What really pissed me off, is when Walmart raised the price of HD DVD's and BD's recently, here in Ontario. We had many tittles for $23.88 and they raised them to $27.88 and some as high as $29.88, for titles from their catalogue's from past years. New releases are similarly priced with standard DVD's.
Not surprisingly, I stopped buying from Wal-Mart. No matter, I don't like shopping there anyway. :p


"One HD DVD Format Only"
Sounds good to me. ;)


We will all be forced to either buy a second HD Disk player to play the other format or buy a dual format player. Our initial purchase will be quickly disregarded, or discounted, and more money will be flushed down the toilet.
I said to myself that I would not buy a player unless it was less than $200 CAD. Then MS released a $199.99 HD DVD add-on for the 360 (which I already owned for other reasons). The sneaky bastards! :p

Anyhoo, I knew the potential risk going in, but felt that spending $200 was OK for HD goodness. I also felt confident that combo players would eventually get released too, so the software I got was a relatively safe bet.


We also get to spend more on our software because we are really competing against ourselves, or, ourselves in the mirror. I, for one, hate spending $32.88 for a title that someone using standard DVD is paying $5.50 for. Until this stupid war is ended, we'll all pay dearly for our passions.
True, but when the DVDs are $5.50, I buy the DVDs, unless it's an absolutely must have HD title for me. However, most of the newer must-haves seem to be expensive as DVDs too. That's why I mentioned Children of Men above. It seems stupid to spend CAD$27 on this title on DVD when I can get the HD DVD from Amazon.com for a few bux more, with a free DVD included to boot. I haven't yet though, cuz of the QA/compatibility issues with this disc. I will wait a while before I buy.

If dual players start coming out in earnest, most people will go for them. The more they sell, the cheaper they will become. Eventually, which format prevails will (thankfully!)be a moot point.

I like dual format players. I do not like their lack of full features or high prices.

I very strongly prefer all studios to be format neutral.

-Robert

Well, I guess the lack of features is because there's only one dual player out there yet. Samsung promises theirs will be nicely loaded and then everyone else will want to compete, so I think it'll be ok as far as features. Prices will come down. They always do.

The important thing is that this will make the format war pretty much pointless. And dual players will be ready for both winners and losers.

Gentlemen (and ladies if any), some excellent reading and contributions here. Unfortunately due to work I have been unable to participate. No matter, all of my points have been made by now.

To Padriac: your point is that a dual format player prolongs the existance of two formats, and that is your main concern (correct me if I'm wrong). You wish for one format (and I think most sensible people given a choice would as well) but how do you propose to acheive this goal? The fact is, right or wrong, we have BD and HD on our hands now. If you assume that neither format is going anywhere, would a universal player not be the next best solution?

Thanks again to all :)

Yeah, I guess the crux of my point is that there are two camps: those rooting for a single format and those rooting for dual format coexistance. To make things more complicated, it only seems to be pro HD DVD folk that root for dual format. This is the part that puzzles me because it indicates some would rather see two losers than allow one winner that happens to be the format they didn't initially support. I mean, I guess it's rational from a short term investment standpoint. I also question if it's really single format support disguised as dual format support (given that HD DVD seems to benefit more, initially, from dual format support).

Personally, I still think that we have until the end of this year to potentially see a single "winner". As I said previously, if things don't change by CES 2008 then we have a stalemate and then, yeah, dual format is the next best option. NEXT best, not THE best (which is a single format choice).

To cut to the chase: I really hope that people realize exactly what they are wishing for when they wish for dual format coexistence. While the battle for a single standard was harsh initially (what we have now) the payoff is theoretically a sudden and clear simple format choice. With dual format we have a long drawn out process of weeding out all the single format players over the process of a few years where neither format is allowed to die yet they still coexist. With time it becomes transparent, but it WILL take a few years of semi-pointless format separation. At least now we have a reason to have two formats (they are both fighting to become the standard). When we relent to dual-formatness, then both formats just seem redundant and pointless. At that point is just like: you both lost, just cut some deal with each other and settle on one or the other.

Yeah, I guess the crux of my point is that there are two camps: those rooting for a single format and those rooting for dual format coexistance. To make things more complicated, it only seems to be pro HD DVD folk that root for dual format.

Seems is a good choice of words, because the number of format neutral supporters in this forum is quite significant. I think it's more accurate to say the majority of anti-hybrid people are "BD only" supporters.

I don't know which is more unrealistic, expecting people prefer HD DVD to just ditch their selection for the good of a single format, or expecting the companies that invested in it to do the same.

I honestly think HD DVD is the better next generation format for a number of reasons, and I voted with my $. People are still buying HD DVD players, my XA2 is a little over a month old. It's not like were all people who bought in the fall of 06, and just can't part with our investment.

However, I'm not appalled at the idea of having a few blue-boxes on my shelf eventually either.

Something like the oil companies?

Seriously, I think dual format players are good, if they can make HD Disks competitive with regular DVD's. What everyone is missing, is the real competition is between HD Disks and regular DVD's. Personally, I believe that one format is the only way to go, because the current single format studio's will not become format neutral, due to the cost of setting up new assembly lines for a second format run and lost profits for doing so. They'll just release in their own original format because their belief that their disks can play in the dual format players and their own format players as well, will keep them alive in a niche market. With the way the format war is currently going, it will keep Blu Ray ahead, but with only a partial victory, while HD DVD will hang on with a lesser opportunity to gain significant market share. Both will eventually lose out, because J6P will just maintain his regular $39.00 DVD player and buy software out of the $5.50 bin at his local Walmart. For HD Disks to take off, we need cheaper disks to appear, to allow the HD format(s) to compete with standard DVD's in price. We are battling each other, when we should be battling standard DVD for better A/V results for all.

Is it possible that they don't necessarily want the prices of hi def players & discs to go down to the current regular DVD level? Maybe they want to be able to offer a higher tier product for more money (and fatter profits) and would not prefer hi def stuff to fall to the current regular dvd prices.

People can kick and scream all they want but if they release a dual format player that delivers all the goods for both formats, everyone will want one.

Yeah, I guess the crux of my point is that there are two camps: those rooting for a single format and those rooting for dual format coexistance. To make things more complicated, it only seems to be pro HD DVD folk that root for dual format. This is the part that puzzles me because it indicates some would rather see two losers than allow one winner that happens to be the format they didn't initially support. I mean, I guess it's rational from a short term investment standpoint. I also question if it's really single format support disguised as dual format support (given that HD DVD seems to benefit more, initially, from dual format support).

Personally, I still think that we have until the end of this year to potentially see a single "winner". As I said previously, if things don't change by CES 2008 then we have a stalemate and then, yeah, dual format is the next best option. NEXT best, not THE best (which is a single format choice).

To cut to the chase: I really hope that people realize exactly what they are wishing for when they wish for dual format coexistence. While the battle for a single standard was harsh initially (what we have now) the payoff is theoretically a sudden and clear simple format choice. With dual format we have a long drawn out process of weeding out all the single format players over the process of a few years where neither format is allowed to die yet they still coexist. With time it becomes transparent, but it WILL take a few years of semi-pointless format separation. At least now we have a reason to have two formats (they are both fighting to become the standard). When we relent to dual-formatness, then both formats just seem redundant and pointless. At that point is just like: you both lost, just cut some deal with each other and settle on one or the other.

Good point, but how would the elimination of dual format players lead to one format prevailing over the other? What would have to happen for this to occur? And how long would it take? There are likely some people out there who just can't wait any longer and dual format players give them some peace of mind so they can just start enjoying hi def.

I imagine people here are thinking that mass consumers are like you guys. People, who fancy every new video and audio gadget that comes out. They are not, not even close.

It’s over; the format war is officially dead for the mass consumers.

These formats will enter the same pathway of DVD-Audio and SACD, and be niche format forever.
A Dual Player is the best thing that could happen to early adopters, but the worse thing that can happen to mass consumers.
It never worked until today, and I believe it won’t again. We are talking about uninformed people, who don’t know the difference between SD and HD, Dolby Digital and Dolby Pro-Logic, their asses from their faces.

The introduction of HD is already difficult; now with two formats coexisting between themselves it will be even harder.

Read again Padriac statement, I believe he hit the spot.

It’s over; the format war is officially dead for the mass consumers.


Exactly. From now on it is HD DVD+Bluray vs. DVD!

Even though is still see a chance that Bluray disappears in the longrun because of the higher costs of production. But then, with dual format players, who cares?

Yeah, I guess the crux of my point is that there are two camps: those rooting for a single format and those rooting for dual format coexistance. To make things more complicated, it only seems to be pro HD DVD folk that root for dual format. This is the part that puzzles me because it indicates some would rather see two losers than allow one winner that happens to be the format they didn't initially support. I mean, I guess it's rational from a short term investment standpoint. I also question if it's really single format support disguised as dual format support (given that HD DVD seems to benefit more, initially, from dual format support).
Actually, there can be two winners too, at least for the next few years. It seems to me, that its the extreme BR supporters that want one format NOW, even if it means an inferior product in the long run.

Personally, I still think that we have until the end of this year to potentially see a single "winner". As I said previously, if things don't change by CES 2008 then we have a stalemate and then, yeah, dual format is the next best option. NEXT best, not THE best (which is a single format choice).
I do consider dual players the best option. Why? There's no question, that competition between formats has made for a higher quality product at a lower cost much faster than what would have happened if there was only one format. With a dual player, you can pull in new customers, that have been scared off by the format war, while still having the format war and it's benefits.

To cut to the chase: I really hope that people realize exactly what they are wishing for when they wish for dual format coexistence. While the battle for a single standard was harsh initially (what we have now) the payoff is theoretically a sudden and clear simple format choice. With dual format we have a long drawn out process of weeding out all the single format players over the process of a few years where neither format is allowed to die yet they still coexist. With time it becomes transparent, but it WILL take a few years of semi-pointless format separation. At least now we have a reason to have two formats (they are both fighting to become the standard). When we relent to dual-formatness, then both formats just seem redundant and pointless. At that point is just like: you both lost, just cut some deal with each other and settle on one or the other.

We're going to have a long drawn out format war anyway, unless you think one will suddenly curl up and die NOW. Since I think both formats are going to be around for a while, it is my belief, that dual players are not only beneficial, but mandatory, to get more people into HD, and keep the formats from being niche products.
Just my 2 cents,
J

I always wonder how people can think Blu Ray or HD DVD is going to replace DVD any time soon if ever. Why would the majority of people with their 27" tube TV ever consider a new format that they can't even benefit from. These are enthusiast formats and probably always will be. If we can get more HT enthusiasts on board then maybe they(the formats) may stick around a while. Dual format players do this.

Actually, I'm all for Toshiba doing a dual format player. They could do a high end SKU and continue with their cost reduction efforts on the low end to keep the other guys honest.

:D

Yeah, I guess the crux of my point is that there are two camps: those rooting for a single format and those rooting for dual format coexistance. To make things more complicated, it only seems to be pro HD DVD folk that root for dual format.
I know some BD owners who root for dual format. Why? Cuz they purchased their PS3s to play games, but also want to play Battlestar Galactica or whatever in HD sooner rather than later.

Perhaps a lot of people against dual-format may be the ones who went into Blu-ray full steam. I'm not talking just about individuals who bought say $$$$ standalone decks here, but also manufacturers and studios.

Support for HD DVD has been more cautious, with people believing that it could succeed in the form of a stalemate, despite the PS3 onslaught. I think that belief has been justified with what we see happening today. PS3 movie disc attachment rates are low, with even Paramount people saying it takes 5 PS3s to equal one standalone or 360 HD DVD drive in disc sales.

In contrast, support for Blu-ray in the past was in the form of "We'll-wipe-HD-DVD-off-the-face-of-the-earth-in-no-time" and obviously that has not come true, and the time frame for that is already over. The studios and manufacturers must be both livid with the defectors (LG and Samsung), and nervous with the state of Blu-ray today (a stalemate, with cheaper hardware from the competition).

...

The HD DVD side has been very proactive about introducing more products and more affordable prices as part of a specific and motivated strategy. You think the A2 and A20 happened by accident? pulleees.

...

Wrong. They have the same sales now, and Sony has used up it's magic bullet already. They have also stretched their player spec till November to give themselves a little "time out", since it FORCED the Samsung to not be able to launch until this spec is finalised in October, whereas Samsung had originally planned to launch it in July.

How is it that HD DVD which basically consist of Toshiba at the moment is called "the HD DVD side" when Blu-ray with more CE support is called Sony?

I always wonder how people can think Blu Ray or HD DVD is going to replace DVD any time soon if ever. Why would the majority of people with their 27" tube TV ever consider a new format that they can't even benefit from.

Uh...how many 27" tube sets do you see for sale when you walk into an AV store these days (e.g Best Buy)? They are getting rare as hens teeth - the shelves having been taken over almost exclusively by HDTVs of one form or another (LCD/Plasma flat panels, RPTVs etc). And this is what consumers are buying now when they replace their TV sets.

Once you have an HDTV there is motivation to view HD content. True, many people don't know a lot about AV stuff and even think that in simply buying an HDTV it automatically makes everything they watch on it HD. But this is simply a mistake - a lack of education on the matter. The point is that in buying their new HDTV, many have a desire, or expectation, for an HD image, a better image. (And I note that A/V stores are being more aggressive in their education in pointing out that people need HD sources to see HD).

But even when people are making ignorant mistakes about what they are watching, the desire is there: to see a better picture after spending a load of money upgrading to their new HDTV.

I have many friends - non AV enthusiasts - who, upon buying their new HD flat panel have phoned me to ask "So which should I buy, HD-DVD or Blu Ray?"

I imagine people here are thinking that mass consumers are like you guys. People, who fancy every new video and audio gadget that comes out. They are not, not even close.

It’s over; the format war is officially dead for the mass consumers.

These formats will enter the same pathway of DVD-Audio and SACD, and be niche format forever.
A Dual Player is the best thing that could happen to early adopters, but the worse thing that can happen to mass consumers.
It never worked until today, and I believe it won’t again. We are talking about uninformed people, who don’t know the difference between SD and HD, Dolby Digital and Dolby Pro-Logic, their asses from their faces.

The introduction of HD is already difficult; now with two formats coexisting between themselves it will be even harder.

Read again Padriac statement, I believe he hit the spot.

But that still does not address the issue. Nobody has come up with a way yet to eliminate one format. If we all agree that both formats are going to continue then what is the better alternative to a universal player?

I always wonder how people can think Blu Ray or HD DVD is going to replace DVD any time soon if ever. Why would the majority of people with their 27" tube TV ever consider a new format that they can't even benefit from. These are enthusiast formats and probably always will be. If we can get more HT enthusiasts on board then maybe they(the formats) may stick around a while. Dual format players do this.

So this could be the reason why hi def will not replace dvd but coexist instead. Those who want hi def will have to pay a premium for now.

Yeah, I guess the crux of my point is that there are two camps: those rooting for a single format and those rooting for dual format coexistance. To make things more complicated, it only seems to be pro HD DVD folk that root for dual format. This is the part that puzzles me because it indicates some would rather see two losers than allow one winner that happens to be the format they didn't initially support.
If the unimaginable should happen, and HD begins to outsell BD, are you suggesting BD fans would root for dual format?

I wouldn't say so. The BD group truly believes their format is"superior" and must prevail, with the death of an inferior format. The HD group says no, they're about the same, just give me the damn movies. This is the real argument.

Uh...how many 27" tube sets do you see for sale when you walk into an AV store these days (e.g Best Buy)?
Every large electronic store locally that sells TVs has several 27" tube sets. That includes Best Buy.

Why? Cuz they're cheap as borscht, and still display analogue SD cable better than most LCDs.

Uh...how many 27" tube sets do you see for sale when you walk into an AV store these days (e.g Best Buy)? They are getting rare as hens teeth - the shelves having been taken over almost exclusively by HDTVs of one form or another (LCD/Plasma flat panels, RPTVs etc). And this is what consumers are buying now when they replace their TV sets.

Once you have an HDTV there is motivation to view HD content. True, many people don't know a lot about AV stuff and even think that in simply buying an HDTV it automatically makes everything they watch on it HD. But this is simply a mistake - a lack of education on the matter. The point is that in buying their new HDTV, many have a desire, or expectation, for an HD image, a better image. (And I note that A/V stores are being more aggressive in their education in pointing out that people need HD sources to see HD).

But even when people are making ignorant mistakes about what they are watching, the desire is there: to see a better picture after spending a load of money upgrading to their new HDTV.

I have many friends - non AV enthusiasts - who, upon buying their new HD flat panel have phoned me to ask "So which should I buy, HD-DVD or Blu Ray?"

Go to Wal Mart and you'll see them. Most people buy a TV and watch until it breaks. TVs usually last 10 years or more. I think the average of people replacing TVs is around 8 years. Just because nice HDTVs are the majority at Best Buy and Circuit City doesn't mean that entire country is running out and replacing their existing TVs.

I always knew you had the potential to be Bi-curious :p Yeah! :)
Keep dreamin' Tim and keep reaching for that rainbow.

I always wonder how people can think Blu Ray or HD DVD is going to replace DVD any time soon if ever. Why would the majority of people with their 27" tube TV ever consider a new format that they can't even benefit from. These are enthusiast formats and probably always will be. If we can get more HT enthusiasts on board then maybe they(the formats) may stick around a while. Dual format players do this.

Right now I would not even recommend HD player to people who owon a HD 32" LCD. BUT, in the future HD DVD will become a simple feature in DVD players. One day HD DVD will be a feature like HDMI. Like HDMI the majority of the people does not need HD, but they will get it anyhow because it will be only an extra $50 compared to a normal DVD player and there are a lot of people saying it is a cool feature. Not speaking of the commercials and the advertising.

Once they have a HD DVD player in the house, they will buy a few HD DVDs for curiosity and friends will give them HD DVDs as presents. This is how HD DVDs will slowly enter every house. In five years there won't be any "DVD only" player anymore. All the DVD players will have the extra feature "plays HD DVD".

The real boom will start once the disks get cheaper. IMHO they should be only $5 above the DVD. That would be still high enough for the studios to make tons of profit and the customers can just go and grab a movie without thinking to much about wether it is worth it or not.

Go to Wal Mart and you'll see them. Most people buy a TV and watch until it breaks. TVs usually last 10 years or more. I think the average of people replacing TVs is around 8 years. Just because nice HDTVs are the majority at Best Buy and Circuit City doesn't mean that entire country is running out and replacing their existing TVs.

Perhaps in a Walmart...

But every major AV store chain I know of (Best Buy, Future Shop, 2001 Audio Video, let alone smaller AV boutique stores) offers vastly more HDTVs on their shelves, all given the prominent floor space, over their teeny, weeny little tube set section. I have had many conversations with salesmen in these stores asking if they are still selling the tube sets.
The theme is always "yeah, some people still actually buy them, but not many. We sell more of the HDTVs by far."

You think that the shelves in these major electronics stores are lined almost exclusively with HDTVs of various types, in the prominent buying area, are there because what's really happening is they are luring people to buy another 27" tube set?

The greater proportion of people I know have bought, or are planning to buy, a new TV...an HDTV (usually flat panel of some sort). Almost everyone at my work has bought an HDTV of one kind or another.

How is it that HD DVD which basically consist of Toshiba at the moment is called "the HD DVD side" when Blu-ray with more CE support is called Sony?

Are you talking about now or the near future?

Lets look at the current situation (all numbers a rough estimates):

Who build 98% of the currently sold Bluray player? Sony! Did Toshiba build a higher percentage of HD DVD player? No! Toshiba build less than 50% of the HD DVD players. With Microsoft there are two significant HD DVD player producers while Sony is only one! Currently Bluray is Sony and Bluray is PS3.

Maybe you were talking about the future. How will it look at the end of the year? Lets see:

Still at least 95% of the BD players will be Sony players. What happens on the HD DVD side? Well thats a tough call with all the variables that come into play during the rest of the year (Chinese players, Onkyo, Meridian, LG, Samsung...) - but my guess would be: Toshiba keeps 40% market share, Microsoft's share decreases to 20%, there will be 25% chinese players and 10% Samsung players (the Samsung player's market share will increase a lot during 2008).

So in my eyes, even at the end of the year Bluray means Sony and PS3. Bluray can not exist on its own outside the PS3 realm.

Perhaps in a Walmart...

But every major AV store chain I know of (Best Buy, Future Shop, 2001 Audio Video, let alone smaller AV boutique stores) offers vastly more HDTVs on their shelves, all given the prominent floor space, over their teeny, weeny little tube set section. I have had many conversations with salesmen in these stores asking if they are still selling the tube sets.
The theme is always "yeah, some people still actually buy them, but not many. We sell more of the HDTVs by far."

You think that the shelves in these major electronics stores are lined almost exclusively with HDTVs of various types, in the prominent buying area, are there because what's really happening is they are luring people to buy another 27" tube set?

The greater proportion of people I know have bought, or are planning to buy, a new TV...an HDTV (usually flat panel of some sort). Almost everyone at my work has bought an HDTV of one kind or another.

Plus, how many of those Wal-Mart brand 27" TV's will actually last more than 5 years?

They sell cheap 27" TV's that I would wager 9/10 will fail before their 5yr mark.

Course, my brother in law bought a stinking 27" tv. But he had to have me come over and program the dish remote for him and show him how to use all of his stuff. What inputs what was on, what buttons to push. I still get one call a month from them asking how to play a VHS.

Some people just aren't meant for technology.

Don't mind me, just rambling :o :)

A Dual Player is the best thing that could happen to early adopters, but the worse thing that can happen to mass consumers.
It never worked until today, and I believe it won’t again. We are talking about uninformed people, who don’t know the difference between SD and HD, Dolby Digital and Dolby Pro-Logic, their asses from their faces.

The introduction of HD is already difficult; now with two formats coexisting between themselves it will be even harder.


I couldn't disagree more.

Lets take your theory to it's logical conclusion, that a consumer never visits forums like this, has no idea about anything to do with HD that can't be absorbed at face value.

If they buy a hybrid, the good news is that they don't have to do anything but buy the disk (any disk) and drop it in the player.

Really, neither format ever had the potential to appeal to a completely unaware or unconcerned consumer. If people can sort out how to work an I-pod, and load it with their CDs and web files, I don't see how this throw them for a loop.

How is it that HD DVD which basically consist of Toshiba at the moment is called "the HD DVD side" when Blu-ray with more CE support is called Sony?

HD disc media is not only CE, and therefore Sony can be seen as the "king of BD" through its involvement.

Sony's involvement in BD
just loosely off the top of my head:

Highest number of BD patents (with Phillips & Panasonic)
Only producer of Blue laser diodes for BD. (80% of the world marked of blue diodes?)
Biggest producer of BD drives.(inhouse and through acquisition of NEC)
Most sold BD player (PS3)
Authoring house.
AVC compression and BD authoring software.
Replicator plant(s) (still only replicator of BD50g ?)
Content provider. (Sony Pictures and subsidiaries)
The BD Logo Trademarks. (has the highest number of BD/blu-ray trademarks registered)
Sony is the licensing body for BD (by appointment of the BDA)

Anything I have forgotten?

Because of this blu-ray is called Sony.

No other BDA company comes even close to this involvement in BD and can therefore, maybe unfairly, be called supporters and suppliers of Sony’s effort in making BD the only high-def disk media format of the future.

Right now I would not even recommend HD player to people who owon a HD 32" LCD. BUT, in the future HD DVD will become a simple feature in DVD players. One day HD DVD will be a feature like HDMI. Like HDMI the majority of the people does not need HD, but they will get it anyhow because it will be only an extra $50 compared to a normal DVD player and there are a lot of people saying it is a cool feature. Not speaking of the commercials and the advertising.

Once they have a HD DVD player in the house, they will buy a few HD DVDs for curiosity and friends will give them HD DVDs as presents. This is how HD DVDs will slowly enter every house. In five years there won't be any "DVD only" player anymore. All the DVD players will have the extra feature "plays HD DVD".

The real boom will start once the disks get cheaper. IMHO they should be only $5 above the DVD. That would be still high enough for the studios to make tons of profit and the customers can just go and grab a movie without thinking to much about wether it is worth it or not.

Many, many valid, real-world observations here. It's always been my belief that HDM would enter through the back door, hat-in-hand.

I think people here gravely over-estimate it's appeal. The people who will buy an HD set because they have no choice are going to be a different lot than those who bought them to boost qaulity (even they might just liked the small footprint of a flat-screen).

This weekend I had the chance to show my HD-DVDs through my HD projector to some friends who had never sat down and experienced them before. The good news is that they thought they looked great, the bad news is I could tell they didn't care to the degree that they wanted HDM for themselves. They just chalked it up to yet another level my video-perfectionism.

Course, my brother in law bought a stinking 27" tv. But he had to have me come over and program the dish remote for him and show him how to use all of his stuff. What inputs what was on, what buttons to push. I still get one call a month from them asking how to play a VHS.

Some people just aren't meant for technology.

Don't mind me, just rambling :o :)

So true. I was at the in-laws' for Easter and I found out they don't use the DVD player we got them because they can't figure out how to switch input selections on the TV. You should have heard the voodoo ceremony they described to me for how to get the DVD player to work ("shut the TV off, then turn it on and turn the cable box off, then make sure the VCR is off, then hit one of these buttons..."). They also just bought a new TV - a Samsung 'slim tube' 27" CRT.

It's a humorous situation, but illustrates that HDTVs and HD disc formats are not a foregone conclusion to J6P anytime soon.

If the unimaginable should happen, and HD begins to outsell BD, are you suggesting BD fans would root for dual format?

I wouldn't say so. The BD group truly believes their format is"superior" and must prevail, with the death of an inferior format. The HD group says no, they're about the same, just give me the damn movies. This is the real argument.

I don't know if I buy this. So you're saying HD DVD's strategy all along was "hey, let's make a format just to stalemate with Blu-ray"? No way that was the whole purpose behind HD DVD.

If your talking about the supporters, I'd say it's all predictable by whoever is leading in sales. The format that appears to be leading tends towards single format superiority, the format that appears to be trailing makes arguements for dual formats. Blu-ray hasn't been trailing since way back before dual players were an option, so that's probably why Blu-ray folks seem less supportive of dual formats: no real reason to. Right now things are more even, but it is only very recently and the long term seems to be poised to stay that way (May 22, for example, should result in high sales for both formats).

And again, dual format is seen by some as a strategy for a long term single format HD DVD win, so that explains some of the discrepancy as well.

Exactly, because they don't make quality components. They may work okay for a time, but the build quality is not there. Sony and Toshiba have also put out some crap players in their need to cut costs and get things out quickly. All due to this damn format war.

LG and Samsung "don't make quality components?"

I'd put my LG HDTV up against anything from the other brand names, and my family's had a Samsung TV that's lasted for 12+ years without a single problem. I think your statement's really overblown and inaccurate. Every name brand's capable of making quality components, and every name brand's capable of making crappy components. There's a reason LG and Samsung are two of the world's largest flat-panel manufacturers and leading electronics companies... No one can consistently produce crap components/products and hope to reach the position those two have.

I agree that it's not a good idea to rush a product to the shelves simply in order to compete for next-gen DVD sales, but if you look at what Toshiba's done with the A-2, it's been proven that a *quality* HD DVD player can be made for a reasonable price.

Personally I'm sick of the format war but there are still way too many factors and uncertainties in the market to declare either format the winner. And everything could change at the drop of a hat based on what one or more companies/studios decides to do. Sony might have incredibly deep pockets but what might happen if lack of games on the PS3 leads to anemic sales, if not an outright collapse in their share of the game console market (I don't see the latter happening; it's just a scenario)? Right now, the vast majority of Blu-Ray player sales is composed of PS3 sales. If Sony loses that pipeline, it could really damage Blu-Ray's position.

Likewise, an exclusive mega-blockbuster release on Blu-Ray (of, for instance, the SW Saga or LOTR) could hurt HD-DVD in a major way.

There are just too many unknowns at this point. Not saying it's useless to discuss the subject. I'm just saying that anyone proclaiming "Our format's WON!" at this stage is blowing a lot of hot air.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=833444
this shows a majority of hd-dvd owners want one format, of people who participated ...

Bob

I couldn't disagree more.

Lets take your theory to it's logical conclusion, that a consumer never visits forums like this, has no idea about anything to do with HD that can't be absorbed at face value.

If they buy a hybrid, the good news is that they don't have to do anything but buy the disk (any disk) and drop it in the player.

Really, neither format ever had the potential to appeal to a completely unaware or unconcerned consumer. If people can sort out how to work an I-pod, and load it with their CDs and web files, I don't see how this throw them for a loop.

Let's imagine they walk into Wal-mart or even Best Buy, decided they want one of those new high definition DVDs that are supossed to be so great, and go pull a Sony player off the shelf because Sony's a good brand, right? They go buy a random movie from the HD DVD section (high definition dvd, just what they wanted!) get home, and try to play the disc. Woops. This problem is just as likely now as it would be if dual format players existed. Only people who randomly prefer brands that are dual by default will be "safe".

The problem is that the dual format approach won't be total because of Sony and Toshiba. It will necessitate some sort of informed consumer (not likely) or semi-competent salesman (definitely not likely in these stores) to inform them to make sure to buy a "dual format" player and somewhat arbitrarily (to them) avoid certain brands of player. It like the studio neutrality thing all over again, but instead it's the CE companies that we're waiting to go neutral rather than the studios. Is this really an improved situation?

Sure, AV nerds will get it. Some of the more young and savvy "average" consumers will get it, but until you can blindly buy a player from Target or Wal-mart and blindly buy a disc and be certain that the disc and player will be compatible without having to have prior knowledge or a sales pitch (which is how the majority of DVDs are sold) it will be a troublesome, confused road for the average consumer. This is why I said dual format is a great solution for the *enthusiast* but still offers hurdles to HD adoption for the average consumer. They'll still see two separate sections on the shelves and still have the possibility of buying incompatible software and hardware for at least 2-3 years. If that's the best HD disc can manage so be it, but it's far from the perfect, easy and quick solution.

If there is a possibility a clear winner could emerge within 2 years, I say that's better in the long term than the long, gradual confusion as dual format players work out the kinks. But yeah, if ALL CE companies were to decide to go dual format right now and say they decided on a blanket name "HDM" (or whatever) for all discs from now on where blu-ray/hd DVD is just a spec on the disc, then I'd say bust out the champagne because the format war would be officially over. It's just not going to be that quick and easy.

Let's imagine they walk into Wal-mart or even Best Buy, decided they want one of those new high definition DVDs that are supossed to be so great, and go pull a Sony player off the shelf because Sony's a good brand, right? They go buy a random movie from the HD DVD section (high definition dvd, just what they wanted!) get home, and try to play the disc. Woops. This problem is just as likely now as it would be if dual format players existed. Only people who randomly prefer brands that are dual by default will be "safe".

The problem is that the dual format approach won't be total because of Sony and Toshiba. It will necessitate some sort of informed consumer (not likely) or semi-competent salesman (definitely not likely in these stores) to inform them to make sure to buy a "dual format" player and somewhat arbitrarily (to them) avoid certain brands of player. It like the studio neutrality thing all over again, but instead it's the CE companies that we're waiting to go neutral rather than the studios. Is this really an improved situation?

Sure, AV nerds will get it. Some of the more young and savvy "average" consumers will get it, but until you can blindly buy a player from Target or Wal-mart and blindly buy a disc and be certain that the disc and player will be compatible without having to have prior knowledge or a sales pitch (which is how the majority of DVDs are sold) it will be a troublesome, confused road for the average consumer. This is why I said dual format is a great solution for the *enthusiast* but still offers hurdles to HD adoption for the average consumer. They'll still see two separate sections on the shelves and still have the possibility of buying incompatible software and hardware for at least 2-3 years. If that's the best HD disc can manage so be it, but it's far from the perfect, easy and quick solution.

If there is a possibility a clear winner could emerge within 2 years, I say that's better in the long term than the long, gradual confusion as dual format players work out the kinks. But yeah, if ALL CE companies were to decide to go dual format right now and say they decided on a blanket name "HDM" (or whatever) for all discs from now on where blu-ray/hd DVD is just a spec on the disc, then I'd say bust out the champagne because the format war would be officially over. It's just not going to be that quick and easy.

I guess then I have more faith in the average consumer and salespeople and their ability to know that A does not work with B, not very complicated in my mind.

Sure, AV nerds will get it. Some of the more young and savvy "average" consumers will get it, but until you can blindly buy a player from Target or Wal-mart and blindly buy a disc and be certain that the disc and player will be compatible without having to have prior knowledge or a sales pitch (which is how the majority of DVDs are sold) it will be a troublesome, confused road for the average consumer. This is why I said dual format is a great solution for the *enthusiast* but still offers hurdles to HD adoption for the average consumer. They'll still see two separate sections on the shelves and still have the possibility of buying incompatible software and hardware for at least 2-3 years. If that's the best HD disc can manage so be it, but it's far from the perfect, easy and quick solution.

If there is a possibility a clear winner could emerge within 2 years, I say that's better in the long term than the long, gradual confusion as dual format players work out the kinks. But yeah, if ALL CE companies were to decide to go dual format right now and say they decided on a blanket name "HDM" (or whatever) for all discs from now on where blu-ray/hd DVD is just a spec on the disc, then I'd say bust out the champagne because the format war would be officially over. It's just not going to be that quick and easy.

I think it's too late to put the paste back in the tube, even if a format took hold over the other in a couple years HDM in general would have whiskers, and I'm not sure studios and CE companies are going to keep sticking their necks out much longer on zero-profit mediums. If hybrids outsell standalone players, that's it for the stand-alone, they won't sell, and stores won't stock that which doesn't sell in favor of that which does.

Samsung didn't decide to make a hybrid for my pleasure or to favor HD DVD, or to take it upon themselves to end the war. They did it to turn a buck, and to do that they must believe the demand is there, or no longer see BD alone as profitable to them.

The consumer simply has to know a little bit about HD to buy HD, your never going to get the transparency of "this is a VHS tape" "this is a DVD" It's the people who are mildly interested that are asking, even expecting hybrids to begin with.

And again, dual format is seen by some as a strategy for a long term single format HD DVD win, so that explains some of the discrepancy as well.

That may be partially true for some, but when I buy a hybrid, I'll buy BDs as well, I won't want them to just go "poof".

I doubt the whole market will be hybrid only before I buy one.

The problom I find when looking for HDTVs. (At least in your bargin stores IE; wal*mart, target)
Is many of them are not full HD sets. I don't think a single walmart TV is truely 1080i most will take 1080i. However offten times the tvs native resoltion is 768p...
I also find many now carry SDTVs. Which only display at 480i. However the do take 1080i,720p and will get ATSC via OTA. Same gos for all their DVD recorders. Many now have ATSC tunners but will only display at 480i/p.

So I think it becomes very difficullt for the average consumer to find a "real" HDTV and not just the minimum.


I myself bought a 30" samsung CRT set. But I've now got HDDVD as well. So I'd like to get a LCD set. One that displays 1080p natively.



As far as multi-format players. I think most don't like them becase they offten lack full support. The LG for example will not do full HDi on HD-DVD.

I think if they made a player the could do everything well folks would be for it. However it seems no matter what theirs always weak points. This can be seen in the Ps2s week DVD player. Same as the xbox. It was just added to be their...

I've already got a A1 HDDVD player. And when I get some extra cash I will buy a stand alone blu-ray player as well. As well as a better TV...

Let's imagine they walk into Wal-mart or even Best Buy, decided they want one of those new high definition DVDs that are supossed to be so great, and go pull a Sony player off the shelf because Sony's a good brand, right? They go buy a random movie from the HD DVD section (high definition dvd, just what they wanted!) get home, and try to play the disc. Woops. This problem is just as likely now as it would be if dual format players existed. Only people who randomly prefer brands that are dual by default will be "safe".
Oh, wait-they see a Samsung dual player for the same price as a Sony-It says on the box: it plays Blu-ray AND HD DVDs, AND DVDs, AND CDs. It doesn't say that on the Sony box. Samsung is a good brand right? They make nice TVs, DVD players...

The problem is that the dual format approach won't be total because of Sony and Toshiba. It will necessitate some sort of informed consumer (not likely) or semi-competent salesman (definitely not likely in these stores) to inform them to make sure to buy a "dual format" player and somewhat arbitrarily (to them) avoid certain brands of player. It like the studio neutrality thing all over again, but instead it's the CE companies that we're waiting to go neutral rather than the studios. Is this really an improved situation?
Yes. You don't think BB salescluck would steer people towards dual players, so they can sell HD DVDs AND Blu-ray?

This is why I said dual format is a great solution for the *enthusiast* but still offers hurdles to HD adoption for the average consumer. They'll still see two separate sections on the shelves and still have the possibility of buying incompatible software and hardware for at least 2-3 years. If that's the best HD disc can manage so be it, but it's far from the perfect, easy and quick solution.
That makes no sense. If people buy dual players, there will be no risk of incompatability.


If there is a possibility a clear winner could emerge within 2 years, I say that's better in the long term than the long, gradual confusion as dual format players work out the kinks. But yeah, if ALL CE companies were to decide to go dual format right now and say they decided on a blanket name "HDM" (or whatever) for all discs from now on where blu-ray/hd DVD is just a spec on the disc, then I'd say bust out the champagne because the format war would be officially over. It's just not going to be that quick and easy.
True, but it will be alot quicker and easier than having no dual players, and having the format war continue for a few years. If that happens, they will both be niche products. Cheap, fully functional dual players are the quickest way to end the war, while getting the masses involved.
J

Plus, how many of those Wal-Mart brand 27" TV's will actually last more than 5 years?

They sell cheap 27" TV's that I would wager 9/10 will fail before their 5yr mark.
My family has bought lots of noname brand TVs and one lasted "only" about 8 years. The others lasted longer than 10, until we gave them away. Ironically, the Toshiba 14" tube TV I bought only lasted two.

Also ironic is that there seem to be a lot less complaints about those tube TVs than new LCDs and such people get, at least in my limited experience. Why? The cheap tube TVs have just a few analogue inputs, and they just work.

The LCDs have HDMI with HDCP, DVI with or without HDCP, VGA, analogue (often with poor quality), etc. Much more complicated, and many more things to go wrong.

Oh, wait-they see a Samsung dual player for the same price as a Sony-It says on the box: it plays Blu-ray AND HD DVDs, AND DVDs, AND CDs. It doesn't say that on the Sony box. Samsung is a good brand right? They make nice TVs, DVD players...

The problem here is that you are assuming people are a) looking at all the features listed and b) actually have any idea what all those acronyms mean. What percentage of DVD owners do you think have any idead what DTS vs. Dolby digital means or does? The vast majority of the public still does not know what Blu-ray or HD DVD are or what's different about them.

Yes. You don't think BB salescluck would steer people towards dual players, so they can sell HD DVDs AND Blu-ray?

And the nonexistent salespeople at target and walmart and costco and .... The consumer will have to be self-informed at some level. You think all those cheap, no-name DVD players and TVs sell because people are knowledgable or because they just buy whatever is cheapest and trust that it works?

That makes no sense. If people buy dual players, there will be no risk of incompatability.

Right, the whole point is that many people won't know to specifically buy dual players AKA completely avoid buying all Toshiba and Sony players until they theoretically go dual. How can we trust that people will go dual when *the two biggest names in HD right now* refuse to go dual or acknowledge it exists. Toshiba and Sony will still be pumping out single format propaganda and trying to convince people to buy their (single format) players. How will the general public be expected to keep it all straight?

True, but it will be alot quicker and easier than having no dual players, and having the format war continue for a few years. If that happens, they will both be niche products. Cheap, fully functional dual players are the quickest way to end the war, while getting the masses involved.
J

Yes, if it is impossible for a single format to "win" within the next few years, then dual format is the way to go... that is what I said. However, if one of the format CAN pull it off, things will end much more rapidly as one format will necessarily disappear. If the war drags on or dual format causes both formats to exist in a half-useful/half-usleless existence for a few years, HD is a niche product either way.

Buy a BD standalone player, now, For $800, which is NOT compatible with the BD-Video 1.1 "standard player profile" which will be finally completed in October, which doesn't have 1080p24, TrueHD, DTS-HD MA, etc etc etc Oops, firmware upgrade is now available for the Panasonic BD player to add TrueHD, Dolby Digital Plus and DTS-HD HR audio decoding. :) BTW, if the audio is DTS-HD MA, the core DTS stream is played.

The problem here is that you are assuming people are a) looking at all the features listed and b) actually have any idea what all those acronyms mean. What percentage of DVD owners do you think have any idead what DTS vs. Dolby digital means or does? The vast majority of the public still does not know what Blu-ray or HD DVD are or what's different about them.



And the nonexistent salespeople at target and walmart and costco and .... The consumer will have to be self-informed at some level. You think all those cheap, no-name DVD players and TVs sell because people are knowledgable or because they just buy whatever is cheapest and trust that it works?


I'm not so sure the individual your describing even exists yet; that is the HD zombie that stumbles out of their car to the back of a Walmart and grabs an HDM player, TV, and disks.

This is a luxury-product upgrade for people who probably know a little something about about what they are buying, and even so it's not that complicated.

In my general movie forums, there is probably one out of fifty that own HDM, but fifty out of fifty know about it, know there are two formats, and know hybrids are possible.
These are the people that will buy a reasonably priced hybrid, and in turn bring the costs down and increase the number of CE manufacturers creating them.

By the time the Walmart crowd is ready, and the price is right on both players and disks, hybrids may well be the norm.

The problem here is that you are assuming people are a) looking at all the features listed and b) actually have any idea what all those acronyms mean. What percentage of DVD owners do you think have any idead what DTS vs. Dolby digital means or does? The vast majority of the public still does not know what Blu-ray or HD DVD are or what's different about them.
They don't need to know DTS or DD. They know DVD and CD, and can look up at the shelf and see BD and HD DVD. Its not like they are lobotomized, if they are going to spend a couple hundred, they'll look around and do a little research.







Right, the whole point is that many people won't know to specifically buy dual players AKA completely avoid buying all Toshiba and Sony players until they theoretically go dual. How can we trust that people will go dual when *the two biggest names in HD right now* refuse to go dual or acknowledge it exists. Toshiba and Sony will still be pumping out single format propaganda and trying to convince people to buy their (single format) players. How will the general public be expected to keep it all straight?
How do you sort it out? Are you a superhuman genius? . Everyone I've met who knows about HDM, knows there are two formats-they'll sort it out. Give people some credit, not everyone is a moron.


Yes, if it is impossible for a single format to "win" within the next few years, then dual format is the way to go... that is what I said. However, if one of the format CAN pull it off, things will end much more rapidly as one format will necessarily disappear. If the war drags on or dual format causes both formats to exist in a half-useful/half-usleless existence for a few years, HD is a niche product either way.
I don't see either format going away anytime soon, so I see dual players as a blessing, possibly HD's only chance, not a problem.

J

My family has bought lots of noname brand TVs and one lasted "only" about 8 years. The others lasted longer than 10, until we gave them away. Ironically, the Toshiba 14" tube TV I bought only lasted two.


And this is why we tell students in statistics classes to look at as large a number as valid data points as possible. My parents owned a Ford Pinto for 12 years, that gave them few problems over its life. Never heard anyone try to argue it was a reliable car. Rather, just a case of one person having good luck getting solid service out of one.

How do you sort it out? Are you a superhuman genius? . Everyone I've met who knows about HDM, knows there are two formats-they'll sort it out. Give people some credit, not everyone is a moron.
J

I honestly think people can sort this out if they care enough to even invest in a HDM format.

If you can use a cell phone, PC, I-pod, buy the right video game, or even sort your socks, you have what it takes for HD.

if they are going to spend a couple hundred, they'll look around and do a little research.

There are studies that show that about 30% of people with HDTVs are just watching standard cable, but think that their TV magically turns it into high definition.

Just because someone is spending hundreds of dollars, doesn't mean they fully understand what they're getting themselves into.

They don't need to know DTS or DD. They know DVD and CD, and can look up at the shelf and see BD and HD DVD. Its not like they are lobotomized, if they are going to spend a couple hundred, they'll look around and do a little research.


I laughed out loud at this one. But yes I agree anyone who is even interested in these formats at this point has enough sense to know what a dual format player is and that it plays both HD DVD and Blu Ray.

People that are as clueless as the guy was mentioning earlier are certainly not looking at Blu Ray, HD DVD or combo players any time soon.

I think some of you people seriously believe the average consumer is as dumb as a bag of rocks when it comes to electronics purchases. If they were really as stupid as some of you are convinced they are, no new technology would ever achieve mass adoption, because the majority wouldn't even know how to turn the damn things on.

The truth is, there's a *learning curve* to everything, and as the technology progresses and becomes more mainstream, as it becomes more and more integrated into everyday life, the average consumer will become more educated in using it. If nothing else, they'll learn through trial and error.

People aren't as dumb as a lot of you think. Conversely, people aren't necessarily as smart as others think. Does everyone here at AVS even understand all the nuances of the technology behind their beloved HDTVs, Blu-Ray players, and HD PVRs? No. So don't presume too much.

I bet a lot of people had similar comments back when DVD players were first becoming widespread. "Oh Joe Average won't understand why he should get DVDs," and "Oh he can barely operate a VCR, how the hell will DVD players catch on, then?" But they became the fastest-selling new electronics product of ALL-TIME.

All I'm saying is, have a little faith. ;)

There are studies that show that about 30% of people with HDTVs are just watching standard cable, but think that their TV magically turns it into high definition.

My friend bought an HDTV a couple years back and doesn't have HD cable because he's too cheap. He bought it because he needed a new set, thought it was a good idea to go HD so it wouldn't be obsolete, and this model got good ratings for reliability.

My sister-in-law bought a HD flat-panel because it fit better into her living-room, she also has neither HD cable or media.

They are neither of them stupid, they just have different priorities.

Uh...how many 27" tube sets do you see for sale when you walk into an AV store these days (e.g Best Buy)? They are getting rare as hens teeth - the shelves having been taken over almost exclusively by HDTVs of one form or another (LCD/Plasma flat panels, RPTVs etc). And this is what consumers are buying now when they replace their TV sets.

Once you have an HDTV there is motivation to view HD content. True, many people don't know a lot about AV stuff and even think that in simply buying an HDTV it automatically makes everything they watch on it HD. But this is simply a mistake - a lack of education on the matter. The point is that in buying their new HDTV, many have a desire, or expectation, for an HD image, a better image. (And I note that A/V stores are being more aggressive in their education in pointing out that people need HD sources to see HD).

But even when people are making ignorant mistakes about what they are watching, the desire is there: to see a better picture after spending a load of money upgrading to their new HDTV.

I have many friends - non AV enthusiasts - who, upon buying their new HD flat panel have phoned me to ask "So which should I buy, HD-DVD or Blu Ray?"

I have a friend who bought a projection HD T.V. four years ago and he still has not bought one source for the T.V. He thinks standard widescreen DVD is the real HD ticket. He has standard satellite and thinks the progressive scan picture is the real thing. He thinks that having an HD T.V. is some kind of status symbol but does not want to pay for real HD content. This is what those who want to compete against standard DVD are up against with the average person.

I have a friend who bought a projection HD T.V. four years ago and he still has not bought one source for the T.V. He thinks standard widescreen DVD is the real HD ticket. He has standard satellite and thinks the progressive scan picture is the real thing. He thinks that having an HD T.V. is some kind of status symbol but does not want to pay for real HD content. This is what those who want to compete against standard DVD are up against with the average person.


Well, there is no shortage of columnists who have expressed the notion that, war or no war, HD is the answer to a question nobody's asking.

I have double, even triple dipped on more DVDs than I care to admit, I'm the one HDM was made for, not my friends that wouldn't dream of it. Just as with HDTV, they will probably have HD players by attrition rather than any burning desire to launch their DVDs, and the studios can sell me my third and fourth copies of Wizard of OZ, Vertigo, and The Shinning. :o :)

I'm curious, were you an LD owner?

I think some of you people seriously believe the average consumer is as dumb as a bag of rocks when it comes to electronics purchases. If they were really as stupid as some of you are convinced they are, no new technology would ever achieve mass adoption, because the majority wouldn't even know how to turn the damn things on.

My mother wanted a new T.V. two years ago. She asked for my advice. My mother's husband thought he knew more and spent $1200.00 for a 36", CRT 4X3 standard definition television. My wife's older brother, in his mid 50's, decided he needed a new T.V. He did the same thing. There are people out there with blinders on. You cannot get through to these people. You try to explain DVD to them and they wonder why there needs to be black bars on the top and bottom of a DVD movie. They think pan and scan is the proper way to see full picture television. When you explain to them that all analog, over-the-air television is about to end and widescreen will be prevalent, they think your full of ****. You can't get through to the majority of these people. You can show them the future, but they think your some kind of alien or a zealot of some kind. This is where the HD Disk media is heading. Unless there are dual players for less than $100.00, then forget about the "Mr. Stability" types. You know, drive 5 miles below the speed limit, never go through an amber light and always buy a 200lb 36" CRT television types. Bigger is better, in the 4 X 3 analog world!

Well, there is no shortage of columnists who have expressed the notion that, war or no war, HD is the answer to a question nobody's asking.

I have double, even triple dipped on more DVDs than I care to admit, I'm the one HDM was made for, not my friends that wouldn't dream of it. Just as with HDTV, they will probably have HD players by attrition rather than any burning desire to launch their DVDs, and the studios can sell me my third and fourth copies of Wizard of OZ, Vertigo, and The Shinning. :o :)

I'm curious, were you an LD owner?

I never owned a laser disk but was privey to a friend that had one. I was involves with Quadrophonic albums and hardware in the 70's, C Band satellite in the 80's, bought in to a lot of the Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs CD Ultra Disk catalogue in the late 80's, bought in to DVD as an early adopter, before DTS. I also bought in to DVD Audio and later Super Audio CD's. I also had Super VHS and almost made the mistake in purchasing a DAT recorder. I waited 6 months to make a decision on which HD Disk media to buy. The main reason for buying my Blu Ray player was studio support and paying $401.00 for my Samsung P1000. I am also on my fourth HD T.V. right now. Been through 7 surround sound processors in 7 years. I could have retired on all of the money that I've spent on A/V equipment.

I have double, even triple dipped on more DVDs than I care to admit, I'm the one HDM was made for, not my friends that wouldn't dream of it. Just as with HDTV, they will probably have HD players by attrition rather than any burning desire to launch their DVDs, and the studios can sell me my third and fourth copies of Wizard of OZ, Vertigo, and The Shinning.

Don't get me going on that one. When I hear about the big music companies whinning about illegal downloading, they never say anything about giving you a break, when you update your media. Here is one of my examples:

Deep Purple, Machine Head:

8 Track
Quad 8 Track
SQ Quad Album
Stereo Album
Cassette
CD
DVD Audio

I've bought this media 7 times. I have other titles with similar numbers. If I download an MP3 of a single from this album, am I a thief for downloading the song to put on a CD for my car? Maybe I heard the song on my XM car radio station and decide to download it. I only paid 7 times for the media and paid a subscription to hear it on XM.

Anyway, pet peave!

I also have the John Wayne Classic, The Searchers, on:

VHS
DVD
Blu Ray

Just some balance on the video side!

My mother wanted a new T.V. two years ago. She asked for my advice. My mother's husband thought he knew more and spent $1200.00 for a 36", CRT 4X3 standard definition television. My wife's older brother, in his mid 50's, decided he needed a new T.V. He did the same thing. There are people out there with blinders on.

I suppose you would say I'm handy. I can paint, refinish furniture, build shelves and tables, repair my house, that kinda crap.

I swear when friends call me for how-to advice, they just ask so they can do the opposite of what I say. The truth is that they want me to support the notion they already have in their head, and if I don't they dismiss me as a perfectionist and aim above the bottom but below what I'm recommending. I'm used to this.

Unfortunately that's DVD, below perfection, but well above the bottom. You'll have a hell of a time shaking those folks loose from it, and you'll go nuts trying. I honestly couldn't even recommend HDM to the casual movie buyer at this point, even if there was only one format or hybrids. Both formats have some kinks to hammer out and the price is prohibitive.

All the talk about dual format players is all well and good, but I cannot see Samsung, or any other company, coming to the table with a unit for under $1000.00 for at least a year. This is no help in the format war. If a person shops around, they can get an HD DVD player or a Blu Ray player for around $400.00. We will be stuck with red and blue disks. I've already had an HD DVD disk given to me as a gift, when I have a Blu Ray player. I said thank you, and then ended up at Walmart to exchange it, without a receipt, for the Blu Ray title. Do I want my format to win? Absolutely. Would I be upset if HD DVD won? I would be disappointed, but would go out and buy an HD DVD player. Unfortunately, if this were to occur, then the winning HD Disk format will be relegated to the status of a niche product and something new would be on the horizon to soon replace it. This war is doing nothing to enhance the ability for either format to compete in the marketplace. It needs to end, ASAP, or suffer the fate of many other niche products sitting in one of my Blue plastic containers of obsolete equipment. Maybe I'll put it next to my Hitachi 8 Track recorder, or my Directv Hughes E86 MPEG 2 satellite receiver, if this happens.

My mother wanted a new T.V. two years ago. She asked for my advice. My mother's husband thought he knew more and spent $1200.00 for a 36", CRT 4X3 standard definition television. My wife's older brother, in his mid 50's, decided he needed a new T.V. He did the same thing. There are people out there with blinders on. You cannot get through to these people. You try to explain DVD to them and they wonder why there needs to be black bars on the top and bottom of a DVD movie. They think pan and scan is the proper way to see full picture television. When you explain to them that all analog, over-the-air television is about to end and widescreen will be prevalent, they think your full of ****. You can't get through to the majority of these people. You can show them the future, but they think your some kind of alien or a zealot of some kind. This is where the HD Disk media is heading. Unless there are dual players for less than $100.00, then forget about the "Mr. Stability" types. You know, drive 5 miles below the speed limit, never go through an amber light and always buy a 200lb 36" CRT television types. Bigger is better, in the 4 X 3 analog world!

It's illegal here to drive through an amber traffic light. I think amber gets you 3 points and red gets you 4 points on your license.

Would I be upset if HD DVD won? I would be disappointed, but would go out and buy an HD DVD player. Unfortunately, if this were to occur, then the winning HD Disk format will be relegated to the status of a niche product and something new would be on the horizon to soon replace it. This war is doing nothing to enhance the ability for either format to compete in the marketplace. It needs to end, ASAP, or suffer the fate of many other niche products sitting in one of my Blue plastic containers of obsolete equipment.

Hey there are parts of the war that are a pisser, no doubt. I presume that HD DVD supporters see it the same way with the names reversed.

But being stuck with an obsolete format is worse than just losing the functionality of what you have, it's having to re-buy perfectly good software, with no compelling advantage.

However I don't share your optimism, IMO HDM was poised for nicheville from day one, I think the media-market is becoming ever-more fragmented between convenience and quality; it's happened to music, and the only thing standing in the way of video going that way is file-sizes.

Part of the reason I asked you if you bought LDs, was because it really wasn't a bad thing to be into. It lasted as long as VHS, and there was no shortage of fantastic releases. They cost double most sell-through tapes, but HD-DVD and BD are already cheaper than LD was. I also think HD is going to be bigger than LD, but no way will it be as big as DVD, because DVD won't be as big as it was soon enough.

I read an article in today's Wall Street Journal by Walter S. Mossberg talking about buying a new PC: here is a snippet about disc drives from the article entitled

Tips for getting past some of the hassles of buying a new PC

"Disks: Don't buy one of the competing new high-definition disk drives, Blu-ray or HD-DVD, until the war between these competing formats is settled. Stick with plain old DVD."

This to me sums up the current state of the format battle and is why I think the hybrid player is the only answer: I am glad some manufacturers see the wisdom in the hybrid: bring them on to diffuse the format battle and start to build some momentum for the HD optical disc before it is too late

My mother wanted a new T.V. two years ago. She asked for my advice. My mother's husband thought he knew more and spent $1200.00 for a 36", CRT 4X3 standard definition television. My wife's older brother, in his mid 50's, decided he needed a new T.V. He did the same thing. There are people out there with blinders on. You cannot get through to these people. You try to explain DVD to them and they wonder why there needs to be black bars on the top and bottom of a DVD movie. They think pan and scan is the proper way to see full picture television. When you explain to them that all analog, over-the-air television is about to end and widescreen will be prevalent, they think your full of ****. You can't get through to the majority of these people. You can show them the future, but they think your some kind of alien or a zealot of some kind. This is where the HD Disk media is heading. Unless there are dual players for less than $100.00, then forget about the "Mr. Stability" types. You know, drive 5 miles below the speed limit, never go through an amber light and always buy a 200lb 36" CRT television types. Bigger is better, in the 4 X 3 analog world!
I'm thinking of getting my mom a 4x3 32" standard definition CRT. It still has better quality images from lower quality SD sources than a 32" LCD at twice or even thrice the price. The only reason I'm considering non-CRTs at this point is the size and weight of CRTs.

Analogue TV isn't about to end any time soon where I live (Toronto). And even when it does switch, the vast majority of television will still be SD.

It's illegal here to drive through an amber traffic light. I think amber gets you 3 points and red gets you 4 points on your license.

I am in Canada and there are similar laws, but most of the time, the police don't bother you, if you go through an amber. They're too busy nailing speeders. By the way, the best thing that ever came out of Northern Virginia, wore grey and visited Pennsylvania, many decades ago! LOL!!!


I'm thinking of getting my mom a 4x3 32" standard definition CRT. It still has better quality images from lower quality SD sources than a 32" LCD at twice or even thrice the price. The only reason I'm considering non-CRTs at this point is the size and weight of CRTs.

Analogue TV isn't about to end any time soon where I live (Toronto). And even when it does switch, the vast majority of television will still be SD.


I know, being Canadian means your always three years obsolete when buying new technology. Thank God, the States is not so far away!

IF a dual format player were necessary due to large libraries of content, then I would get one.

At this point a dual format player is simply prolonging the war and forcing me to then make a choice about which type of disc to buy. And that I will not do.

I think dual format players would be great -- for people who haven't purchased an expensive first player yet (me).

The only people I can see being against dual format players are people who have already "invested" heavily or in a high-cost fashion in one particular format (not from a media perspective, but a hardware perspective). I completely understand the rational, too. I just don't share the same circumstances and therefore can afford to endorse a dual format player.

The rest of the "reasons" spouted off here are speculation, FUD or rationalizations, IMHO -- some of them are actually quite humorous, 'outside looking in'.

IF a dual format player were necessary due to large libraries of content, then I would get one.

At this point a dual format player is simply prolonging the war and forcing me to then make a choice about which type of disc to buy. And that I will not do.

You are right, there currently are not LARGE libraries of content in HD (compared to SD) but you won't be "forced" to decide which format to buy since it won't matter if you have a dual player. The determining factor should be the movie itself and how much you like/want it.

I think dual format players would be great -- for people who haven't purchased an expensive first player yet (me).

The only people I can see being against dual format players are people who have already "invested" heavily or in a high-cost fashion in one particular format (not from a media perspective, but a hardware perspective). I completely understand the rational, too. I just don't share the same circumstances and therefore can afford to endorse a dual format player.

The rest of the "reasons" spouted off here are speculation, FUD or rationalizations, IMHO -- some of them are actually quite humorous, 'outside looking in'.

Exactly. Dual format players are not targeted for those who already own something. Those that have already invested in one format were (or should have been) well aware of the possibility that their chosen format may at some point be obsolete.

IF a dual format player were necessary due to large libraries of content, then I would get one.

At this point a dual format player is simply prolonging the war and forcing me to then make a choice about which type of disc to buy. And that I will not do.

That makes no sense. Buy a dual format player, and you don't have to decide which type of disc to buy, that's the whole point. If you own a single format player, then you've already made your choice, and have no one but yourself to blame. No one is forcing anything.
J

The only people I can see being against dual format players are people who have already "invested" heavily or in a high-cost fashion in one particular format (not from a media perspective, but a hardware perspective). I completely understand the rational, too. I just don't share the same circumstances and therefore can afford to endorse a dual format player.

The rest of the "reasons" spouted off here are speculation, FUD or rationalizations, IMHO -- some of them are actually quite humorous, 'outside looking in'.
Actually, it looks like the only people who are against dual players, are the hard core BD fans. Most people with HD DVD players don't seem to have a problem with them.
J

Actually, it looks like the only people who are against dual players, are the hard core BD fans. Most people with HD DVD players don't seem to have a problem with them.
J

I suspect that at least part of the objection from BD (player) owners is the $ investment in their players -- and knowing that if dual format players take hold that they'll end up with a 'partially functional' player. I don't think most HD-DVD owners have quite the same $ investment in their players, but I could be wrong.

I guess that it is better for all on both sides to be obsolete and wrong, than have one side make the right decision and be rewarded for their correct decision. We can all go out and buy a new machine to keep everyone semi-happy. Political correctness at it's worst!

first off i am an avid hddvd fan but i believe dual format players are bad and i'll tell ya why. they keep both formats alive which in the long run is bad. the neutral software makers are having to spend extra just to replicate bluray disk and also an amount (though cheaper compared to bluray) to replicate the hddvd disk. it also forces us the consumer to either buy into a dual format player or purchase both standalone players which is also more expensive because there is going to be software from the other side that we would love to see. one format is just more simple, promotes less confusion, and easier on the pockets of the consumer

first off i am an avid hddvd fan but i believe dual format players are bad and i'll tell ya why. they keep both formats alive which in the long run is bad. the neutral software makers are having to spend extra just to replicate bluray disk and also an amount (though cheaper compared to bluray) to replicate the hddvd disk. it also forces us the consumer to either buy into a dual format player or purchase both standalone players which is also more expensive because there is going to be software from the other side that we would love to see. one format is just more simple, promotes less confusion, and easier on the pockets of the consumer

I think we are all agreed on the "one format is better" side but unless we can go back in time and stop one format from existing we are stuck. Even if you are optomistic and think one format will still prevail, how long do you think it will take. 5 years? 10 years? Neither BD nor HD look like they are going away quietly, if at all.

I think we are all agreed on the "one format is better" side but unless we can go back in time and stop one format from existing we are stuck. Even if you are optomistic and think one format will still prevail, how long do you think it will take. 5 years? 10 years? Neither BD nor HD look like they are going away quietly, if at all.

like i always have said they can co-exist hddvd as the movie format and bluray as a computer file format. unless the bda wants some of it or nothing at all... i'd say that would be their best bet

I think we are all agreed on the "one format is better" side but unless we can go back in time and stop one format from existing we are stuck. Even if you are optomistic and think one format will still prevail, how long do you think it will take. 5 years? 10 years? Neither BD nor HD look like they are going away quietly, if at all.

why is 8 track still around? :) many formats come into existence and disappear even some that are king at some point in time.

I suspect that at least part of the objection from BD (player) owners is the $ investment in their players -- and knowing that if dual format players take hold that they'll end up with a 'partially functional' player. I don't think most HD-DVD owners have quite the same $ investment in their players, but I could be wrong.

I think it is the opposite. Many HD DVD supporters recognize that HD DVD can’t win. A stale mate is all they can do so that their 500/1000 + all those movies is not wasted. Think about it. If dual is the solution as a BD supporter all my movies (that cost more then my two players) will still be good, my two players will still be good, the only thing is that I will need to buy a cheap HD DVD player (assuming studios are still divided) so nothing is lost from me in a dual world, and if studios release every title on both even less is lost. On the other hand if the format war does become one format and that format is BD then the guy needs to buy a BD player if he wants to continue with newer HD movies, eventually when his player brakes all those movies he bought are useless.

So dual world: no one loses
Single world: the people that bought the wrong one loses
No HD world: we all lose

Now lets fill in what happens on either side

BD supporter

So dual world: win
Single world: win
No HD world: lose

HD DVD supporter


So dual world: win
Single world: lose
No HD world: lose

So dual looks good for an HD DVD supporter but there is no difference for BD supporters. Then you add the fact that in a dual world there is no solution (there are the same questions buy BD/HD DVD or more for dual, buy BD disks or HD DVD disks, what if dual is temporary and it leads to single in the long run and the side I was favouring while dual goes away?) and you fast realize that dual either leads to the other two solutions except it takes MUCH longer and so it becomes


BD supporter

So dual world ->75% lose (for both) and 25% win (for one)
Single world: win
No HD world: lose

so it becomes wish for one side to win (I would trather buy an other player and have HD then not have HD) or hope for a stalemate until they both lose.

I guess that it is better for all on both sides to be obsolete and wrong, than have one side make the right decision and be rewarded for their correct decision. We can all go out and buy a new machine to keep everyone semi-happy. Political correctness at it's worst!


This isn't political correctness, it's economic reality. Neither camp just shook hands and said "for the benefit of all, lets go hybrid." This is a third-party solution to a war that shows no sign of ending, and to stake their claim by offering flexibility.

The notion of one side bowing out for "the good of HDM" is a far more an artificial and idealistic concept. I have yet to hear anyone suggest it be their side that make the sacrifice.

HD DVD supporter

So dual world: win
Single world: lose
No HD world: lose

I haven't heard such arrogance since, well, Sony.

first off i am an avid hddvd fan but i believe dual format players are bad and i'll tell ya why. they keep both formats alive which in the long run is bad. the neutral software makers are having to spend extra just to replicate bluray disk and also an amount (though cheaper compared to bluray) to replicate the hddvd disk. it also forces us the consumer to either buy into a dual format player or purchase both standalone players which is also more expensive because there is going to be software from the other side that we would love to see. one format is just more simple, promotes less confusion, and easier on the pockets of the consumer

If every player is dual format then there is no confusion for customers what to buy or extra cost to studios to make hd-dvd/blu-ray discs since they would only need to produce in one format knowing their product would be compatible in every player.

The format war would go the way of +/-R DVD.

The only downfall is early adopters, like ourselves, who will need to buy into the other format if they haven't already.

If every player is dual format then there is no confusion for customers what to buy or extra cost to studios to make hd-dvd/blu-ray discs since they would only need to produce in one format knowing their product would be compatible in every player.

The format war would go the way of +/-R DVD.

The only downfall is early adopters, like ourselves, who will need to buy into the other format if they haven't already.

NOX big picture here... if 2 formats stay alive prices of the software will stay high for the simple fact of supply and demand the companies will need to make a penny somewhere. do u still want to be paying 25-35 bucks for movies 2 or 3 years down the road or do you want more like the prices of today 10-20 bucks. one format means double the sales for the format means lower prices

why is 8 track still around? :) many formats come into existence and disappear even some that are king at some point in time.

I'm not sure what you mean by that statement :(

I think it is the opposite. Many HD DVD supporters recognize that HD DVD can’t win. A stale mate is all they can do so that their 500/1000 + all those movies is not wasted. Think about it. If dual is the solution as a BD supporter all my movies (that cost more then my two players) will still be good, my two players will still be good, the only thing is that I will need to buy a cheap HD DVD player (assuming studios are still divided) so nothing is lost from me in a dual world, and if studios release every title on both even less is lost. On the other hand if the format war does become one format and that format is BD then the guy needs to buy a BD player if he wants to continue with newer HD movies, eventually when his player brakes all those movies he bought are useless.

So dual world: no one loses
Single world: the people that bought the wrong one loses
No HD world: we all lose

Now lets fill in what happens on either side

BD supporter

So dual world: win
Single world: win
No HD world: lose

HD DVD supporter


So dual world: win
Single world: lose
No HD world: lose

So dual looks good for an HD DVD supporter but there is no difference for BD supporters. Then you add the fact that in a dual world there is no solution (there are the same questions buy BD/HD DVD or more for dual, buy BD disks or HD DVD disks, what if dual is temporary and it leads to single in the long run and the side I was favouring while dual goes away?) and you fast realize that dual either leads to the other two solutions except it takes MUCH longer and so it becomes


BD supporter

So dual world ->75% lose (for both) and 25% win (for one)
Single world: win
No HD world: lose

so it becomes wish for one side to win (I would trather buy an other player and have HD then not have HD) or hope for a stalemate until they both lose.

While both sides would like their chosen format to win due to initial $ investment, I doubt the HD DVD side was conceded to either failure or at best a stalemate. Your above scenarios would then have to apply to both sides.

This isn't political correctness, it's economic reality. Neither camp just shook hands and said "for the benefit of all, lets go hybrid." This is a third-party solution to a war that shows no sign of ending, and to stake their claim by offering flexibility.

The notion of one side bowing out for "the good of HDM" is a far more an artificial and idealistic concept. I have yet to hear anyone suggest it be their side that make the sacrifice.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

NOX big picture here... if 2 formats stay alive prices of the software will stay high for the simple fact of supply and demand the companies will need to make a penny somewhere. do u still want to be paying 25-35 bucks for movies 2 or 3 years down the road or do you want more like the prices of today 10-20 bucks. one format means double the sales for the format means lower prices

I'm pretty sure we're all on board with that...except for Toshiba and Sony. Maybe the pundits are right then, this WalMart support for HD DVD will finally put an end to Blu Ray?

I'm pretty sure we're all on board with that...except for Toshiba and Sony. Maybe the pundits are right then, this WalMart support for HD DVD will finally put an end to Blu Ray?

Walmart is not stupid enough to alienate more than half of the HD Disk market by chosing one format over the other. You will see both formats with similar priced hardware and similarly priced software, as long as HD DVD quits supporting those double disk titles.

Walmart is not a consumer advocate - watch'em

Walmart is not stupid enough to alienate more than half of the HD Disk market by chosing one format over the other. You will see both formats with similar priced hardware and similarly priced software, as long as HD DVD quits supporting those double disk titles.

And that would be all of 0.03% ?

I guess they are after the 99.97% :)

And that would be all of 0.03% ?

I guess they are after the 99.97% :)

Going through 3 Walmarts, here in Ontario, Canada, this afternoon, I looked at their HD DVD/Blu Ray sections. What I find, in all Canadian stores, is Blu Ray on the top two shelves, at eye level and HD DVD on the bottom two shelves, where it's hard to see the titles. If they are so pro HD DVD, then why is this happening? Maybe they see which one sells better and they put the titles that sell front and centre.

Going through 3 Walmarts....

Did you even understand what I wrote ?

Did you even understand what I wrote ?

I was a bit confused....enlighten me!

Did you even understand what I wrote ?


I did, and would have written it myself had you not.

The gist is offend who? Nobody has truly entered the technology, and they have the power to usher it in to far greater numbers than the insignificant few who have already taken the the plunge or made this their issue. Offending customers hasn't stopped stores that sell solely electronics from playing favorites.

There are a myriad product choices Walmart makes down every Isle that push some products to the exclusion of others. It's like saying "they wouldn't dare only sell jockey underwear, it would infuriate Calvin Clien customers"

Going through 3 Walmarts, here in Ontario, Canada, this afternoon, I looked at their HD DVD/Blu Ray sections. What I find, in all Canadian stores, is Blu Ray on the top two shelves, at eye level and HD DVD on the bottom two shelves, where it's hard to see the titles. If they are so pro HD DVD, then why is this happening? Maybe they see which one sells better and they put the titles that sell front and centre.
They sure do!
They sold 5 BDs and 3 HDDVDs this year. They are probably already planning pn replacing their entire DVD section with them next month.

The problem is that the dual format approach won't be total because of Sony and Toshiba. It will necessitate some sort of informed consumer (not likely) or semi-competent salesman (definitely not likely in these stores) to inform them to make sure to buy a "dual format" player and somewhat arbitrarily (to them) avoid certain brands of player. It like the studio neutrality thing all over again, but instead it's the CE companies that we're waiting to go neutral rather than the studios. Is this really an improved situation?

This is great because if Sony and Toshiba are the only holdouts without dual players, they will hopefully see their competition rack up big sales while they become known as the companies to avoid. It's just what they deserve!

Walmart is not stupid enough to alienate more than half of the HD Disk market by chosing one format over the other. You will see both formats with similar priced hardware and similarly priced software, as long as HD DVD quits supporting those double disk titles.

Then I guess we have a solution: cheap hardware and software for everyone! :)

Going through 3 Walmarts, here in Ontario, Canada, this afternoon, I looked at their HD DVD/Blu Ray sections. What I find, in all Canadian stores, is Blu Ray on the top two shelves, at eye level and HD DVD on the bottom two shelves, where it's hard to see the titles. If they are so pro HD DVD, then why is this happening? Maybe they see which one sells better and they put the titles that sell front and centre.

I'm not doubting you, but I do have to question your extrapolation. How does visiting a mere 3 Walmarts allow one to claim that "all" Canadian stores are pro Blu Ray??

I'm not doubting you, but I do have to question your extrapolation. How does visiting a mere 3 Walmarts allow one to claim that "all" Canadian stores are pro Blu Ray??


Whatever Walmart sells changes week to week, if they have $199 HD DVD players they won't be giving over a lot of space to $500 BD players. That is until a cheap Chinese BD player emerges as well.

Also, if you can make a profit on a $200 HD DVD player, that's a pretty good indication that hybrids need cost no more than $500-$600 pretty soon.

It's hard to tell what is gonna go down when cheap players flood the market, but it's going to make changes for sure.

I'm not doubting you, but I do have to question your extrapolation. How does visiting a mere 3 Walmarts allow one to claim that "all" Canadian stores are pro Blu Ray??

That was today. In the last 8 days, I've been in 8 stores and they're all the same. BR on top, HD DVD on the bottom.

You've been doing a lot of travelling if you live in Belleville and you've been in 8 Walmarts in 8 days.

I was a bit confused....enlighten me!

Timothy already answered this ...

Just to elaborate - currently BD movie sales is a very small fraction of DVD sales and rest are buying only DVDs. Its that "rest" that Walmart is pitching HD DVD to. Not the people who have already bought into BD. Not one BD person needs to convert to HD DVD - just need to convert the SD folks.

And ofcourse, you already know this - as your signature illustrates.

You've been doing a lot of travelling if you live in Belleville and you've been in 8 Walmarts in 8 days.

It's not hard to be in Brockville, Kingston, Napanee, Belleville, Trenton, Cobourg, Oshawa, and Peterborough in a couple of days. I also visited Watertown, NY and Fort Drum, NY and saw no HD DVD or Blu Ray disks there.

Several of the Wal-Marts where I live (Toronto) have both HD DVD and Blu-ray disks. Sometimes it's HD DVD on top. Sometimes its Blu-ray on top.

It's not hard to be in Brockville, Kingston, Napanee, Belleville, Trenton, Cobourg, Oshawa, and Peterborough in a couple of days. I also visited Watertown, NY and Fort Drum, NY and saw no HD DVD or Blu Ray disks there.


Your actually going to these places to scope out the hierarchy of hi-def? Where does that get ya?

I live in Milwaukee, and I think we have about 7 Walmarts and 3 Sam's Clubs, but I rarely set foot in them, because I feel guilty when I give them my money.

However I gotta say it really doesn't matter what they do today, tomorrow they could do something completely different. They may order 2 million Chinese BD players if they can get them at a similar price, but so far that isn't the case, and it appears that they in fact did order 2 million HD DVD players.

Once his enters the realm of sell-through pricing at Walmart, it won't much matter what any of us think, they are gonna do what they want, with very few exceptions they always do. You one format only folks ought to applaud this notion, that is unless the one format can only be BD?

Optical=FTL

HD On Demand over IP service would be ideal. Something like the new Netflix service but in HD resolutions. Eliminate Optical Drives for media altogether.

Moving parts suck!

Your actually going to these places to scope out the hierarchy of hi-def? Where does that get ya?

I live in Milwaukee, and I think we have about 7 Walmarts and 3 Sam's Clubs, but I rarely set foot in them, because I feel guilty when I give them my money.

However I gotta say it really doesn't matter what they do today, tomorrow they could do something completely different. They may order 2 million Chinese BD players if they can get them at a similar price, but so far that isn't the case, and it appears that they in fact did order 2 million HD DVD players.

Once his enters the realm of sell-through pricing at Walmart, it won't much matter what any of us think, they are gonna do what they want, with very few exceptions they always do. You one format only folks ought to applaud this notion, that is unless the one format can only be BD?

I went to look at televison stands at all of these Walmart's and always stop to check out what they have for movies and how they display them. It's not just Walmart that I check out. I go to a number of Future Shops and Best Buys, as well. There, I can compare price with Walmart, on a number of items, like LCD Televisions, movies, music, and yes, televison stands.

Walmart is the leader in home electronics sales. They outsell the other big box stores, with lower prices. Most people look at price, then look at the specs. There is no difference in quality of a no name 32" LCD televison in Walmart, as there is in Best Buy. Same with movies. Unless you are interested in the higher end equipment and can afford prices that many use as a morgage on a house, then Walmart gets their business. It sure does break my heart, when I do see someone buy a 32" analog tube model, knowing they'll be back in a couple of years to buy the flatscreen, when over the air goes digital in a couple of years.

TotalHD discs are bad for the same reason. Just one more obstacle to the marketplace picking a winner. I know lots of people not buying either format until they know they can get every movie they want to play on a single player. Dual format players and TotalHD discs might seem like they will make that happen sooner, but I don't believe the average buyer will be confident that both will stick around to make a purchase.

The two things are different. Dual format players are a bad idea because it avoids making a choice and is inefficient. There needs to be a choice, and the decision right now is between player price and capacity (there being no other meaningful difference to the user). The dual-format player costs more and will prove to be a marketplace dud, bought only by confused fanboys.

Dual-format disks, on the other hand, are a great idea for consumers and for those that don't care who wins, as long as lots of movies come to HD. As a consumer buying one of these, you know that your investment in discs will not be lost. You may have to buy a new player, but heck, you were going to have to do that even if you guessed RIGHT. Those of you on your first DVD player raise your hands. So few?

Remember that the money you've invested in your DVD players (all of them) amounts to less than $1000. Possibly much less. The money you've invested in discs is at least 10 times as great. TotalHD gives the consumer assurance that this won't be wasted.

And, since it means you buy the cheapest player for right now, it dooms blu-ray, but that's a side issue.

Dual-format disks, on the other hand, are a great idea for consumers and for those that don't care who wins, as long as lots of movies come to HD. As a consumer buying one of these, you know that your investment in discs will not be lost.

I would not hold your breath for exclusive studios to release HDDVD/BR combo discs anytime soon. If you want all available HD content and your waiting on 1) all studios releasing dual format discs 2) a clear winner to the format war, or 3) dual-format players becoming prevalent and affordable, I think #3 is the best option and likely to happen the soonest.

If you spend much more on software then it makes more sense to have a dual format player (hardware) as an initial outlay.

I see dual format players as an interim compromise but not a solution to the format competition.

<<[QUOTE=kcmurphy88]The two things are different. Dual format players are a bad idea because it avoids making a choice and is inefficient. There needs to be a choice, and the decision right now is between player price and capacity (there being no other meaningful difference to the user). The dual-format player costs more and will prove to be a marketplace dud, bought only by confused fanboys.>>>

So a machine that only plays some of the movies released on High Def is not a marketplace dud while one that does not have this limitation is a marketplace dud?

Confused fanboys of what???

If I get a player that plays both, what do I care which one will stay? Choosing your health care policy is important. "Needing" to make a choice on High Def on a disc is not, unless you make a living at that.

Let Sony and Toshiba tear each other to pieces! They'll probably survive us all, anyway!

And I believe most people will want players that play all Hi Def movies. So prices will come down. They always do... And eventually one format will be dominant, but this will be a moot point in most cases.

Are we looking for a problem to fit a solution?