I plan on buying a f113 in the next 3 to 4 months; however, given that ACI Maestro has its new XL coming out & SVS ultra 13 is coming out in July, I am wondering whether I should wait for a comparison / reviews of these 3?

HT and music usage - 50/50.

thanks,

Something better is always going to be on the horizon. That being said, the new SVS ultra 13 likely will not be as good as the Fathom 13, but it will cost much less and be in the same ballpark. Nothing is known for sure until we see some numbers and hear the thing.

I plan on buying a f113 in the next 3 to 4 months; however, given that ACI Maestro has its new XL coming out & SVS ultra 13 is coming out in July, I am wondering whether I should wait for a comparison / reviews of these 3?

HT and music usage - 50/50.

thanks,

Hi

I would not wait. I like the Velodyne DD-18 in Maple. It might cost a little more than the F113, however, it is my first choice right now.

Best Regards

new Maestro? do tell

Hi

I would not wait. I like the Velodyne DD-18 in Maple. It might cost a little more than the F113, however, it is my first choice right now.

Best Regards

Does the maple finish sound different than the other finishes?

new Maestro? do tell

Yes, I'd be interested, this is news to me too! :eek:

I plan on buying a f113 in the next 3 to 4 months; however, given that ACI Maestro has its new XL coming out & SVS ultra 13 is coming out in July, I am wondering whether I should wait for a comparison / reviews of these 3?

HT and music usage - 50/50.

thanks,
if you are without a sub now i would be tempted to make a purchase
but if you have a sub i would wait and see what developes in the next
few months all the companies seem to be stepping up to the plate.

Does the maple finish sound different than the other finishes?

It does.

I plan on buying a f113 in the next 3 to 4 months; however, given that ACI Maestro has its new XL coming out & SVS ultra 13 is coming out in July, I am wondering whether I should wait for a comparison / reviews of these 3?

I would buy the JL now since it is so good I doubt those other subs will compete with it.

My bad . . . I sure thought that ACI had a new Maestro XL coming out, must have dreamed that one. Apparently . . . not.

Well, I guess that is one sub that I don't have to wait to come out in order to compare to the others -

Did not mean to start a rumour -

It does.

I would buy the JL now since it is so good I doubt those other subs will compete with it.


One possible alternative would be to buy something now, say the fathom and, then, reconsider when others come out on the market. That brings up an interesting facet that I am going to post as a new thread, that is, what subs have best re-sale value?

I think you better buy and setup the F113 in your place and find out what it can do, you will not need more.

One possible alternative would be to buy something now, say the fathom and, then, reconsider when others come out on the market. That brings up an interesting facet that I am going to post as a new thread, that is, what subs have best re-sale value?
that might be an interesting thread.

Does the maple finish sound different than the other finishes?
:D :D Apparently!

Seriously, F113 all the way.

I plan on buying a f113 in the next 3 to 4 months; however, given that ACI Maestro has its new XL coming out & SVS ultra 13 is coming out in July, I am wondering whether I should wait for a comparison / reviews of these 3?

HT and music usage - 50/50.

thanks,

You might want to consider that the F113 is sealed, and generally sealed subs sound "better" for music, but given it's ability to dig deep also makes it great for HT. In my opinion, you should go with the F113.

It doesn't take long to see that the fathom gets a many votes of confidence on this forum. I have never heard one, but it must be the sub to beat. However, my impression is that they are not easy to obtain. I rarely see any used ones for sale. Now, the reason that no used ones are for sale may speak volumes about what ownership means - that is, the owners want to keep 'em.

Unfortunately, there are no dealers in Birmingham or Huntsville (Alabama). Yet, there are places that have JL subs for cars, as i have a JL audio sub in my trunk.

In contrast, Velodynes, Paradigm, and all the brands that Tweeter, Best Buy, Circuit City, etc. carry are readily available.

I would be glad to be the official distributor for JL Audio's Home Theater products for the North Alabama region - (hint, hint).

I plan on buying a f113 in the next 3 to 4 months; however, given that ACI Maestro has its new XL coming out & SVS ultra 13 is coming out in July, I am wondering whether I should wait for a comparison / reviews of these 3?

HT and music usage - 50/50.

thanks,

Wait.

I wouldn't wait months for a promise if you can be enjoying a F113 TODAY! The F113 is a proven product given the feedback on this board and others.

I plan on buying a f113 in the next 3 to 4 months; however, given that ACI Maestro has its new XL coming out & SVS ultra 13 is coming out in July, I am wondering whether I should wait for a comparison / reviews of these 3?

HT and music usage - 50/50.

thanks,

I've been in your shoes and to be honest, it is real easy to make onself crazy. Everybody has a different opinion which makes the decision even harder. If the SVS Ultra 13 comes out in July, it will take another several months to get a handle on how the new Ultra performs objectively and subjectively.

You have to ask what's important to you:
1) Is money an issue? The Fathom two times the price of the Ultra 13
2) How much output do you need? The Fathom will likely have the edge in output compared to Ultra, but TWO Ultras (the price of one Fathom) will likely edge one Fathom.
3) Is size an issue? The Ultra's enclosure will be larger than the Fathom.
4) Are you a patient man? The Fathom is here and is a known quanitity, the Ultra is still in pre-release and we don't have any idea on what this subwoofer can do. Do you need a subwoofer now, or are you patient enough to wait 6-8 months before pulling the trigger.

WAIT WAIT...why wait?

JL Audio has a tremendous performer,built to a standard nobody even matches at this price point,it even bests subs retailing for more from Velodyne and Aerial!

The performance is first rate,parts quality second to none. Take the output for example...it competes with much larger units from SVS and HSU all ported large units! Look at the beastly woofer it makes the competition look like midranges where used.

Now sound quality and integration.Again the JL Audio tops the heap of subs from the most respected names in audio,and in the worst cases matches them(those have often lesser SPL and cost more!).

Get the Fathom f113. You have a sub now that is a winner and will remain at the top for quite some time.The flavor of the month...not the Fathom.

I have a gang of subs in all price rangesup to $5000 US and the Fathoms are the finest subs south of 10K.And I would pit a f113 against a Wilson Watch Dog quality for quality...any day!

And at the asking price of a Watch Dog you get...a GOTHAM! A Gotham puts to near shame most ubber subs when all aspects of performance and built are added.

WAIT WAIT...why wait?

JL Audio has a tremendous performer,built to a standard nobody even matches at this price point,it even bests subs retailing for more from Velodyne and Aerial!

The performance is first rate,parts quality second to none. Take the output for example...it competes with much larger units from SVS and HSU all ported large units! Look at the beastly woofer it makes the competition look like midranges where used.

Now sound quality and integration.Again the JL Audio tops the heap of subs from the most respected names in audio,and in the worst cases matches them(those have often lesser SPL and cost more!).

Get the Fathom f113. You have a sub now that is a winner and will remain at the top for quite some time.The flavor of the month...not the Fathom.

I have a gang of subs in all price rangesup to $5000 US and the Fathoms are the finest subs south of 10K.And I would pit a f113 against a Wilson Watch Dog quality for quality...any day!

And at the asking price of a Watch Dog you get...a GOTHAM! A Gotham puts to near shame most ubber subs when all aspects of performance and built are added.

Well said...

Does the maple finish sound different than the other finishes?



Of course they do!



























Of course it might be due to my accent.

After Co-locating my F113, I can't imagine how big a Gotham will be. >.<;

James

After Co-locating my F113, I can't imagine how big a Gotham will be. >.<;

James

Just an FYI two F113s will outperform a Gotham. Some may not realize this.

The purpose of the Gotham is to just make the connections simpler and space requirements slightly less, as in one power outlet, one input and one cabinet.

Simply put, two colocated F113s take up more space than a Gotham in either height or width.

Simply put, two colocated F113s take up more space than a Gotham in either height or width.

Ok. It still looks big. The picture just makes it look small and cute. It's really big and cute. Heh. I'm loving my F113 more and more as it breaks in.

Just an FYI two F113s will outperform a Gotham. Some may not realize this.



That's not exactly what's being said over in the JL audio thread (factory visit thread).

If the two f113s are stacked or otherwise colocated, they would not outperform a Gotham. The advantage with two F113s has to do with non colocated placement. Dual Gothams would outperform dual f113s.

The advantage spoken of on the JL Audio trip thread is qualitative, not quantitative. In terms of measured output, the two are very close with a slight edge to the twin f113's. In terms of sound quality, Carl Kennedy feels the Gotham offers an advantage based on his extensive listening tests of the first production units.

I have not personally had enough seat time with the production Gotham to offer an intelligent opinion.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

That's not exactly what's being said over in the JL audio thread (factory visit thread).

If the two f113s are stacked or otherwise colocated, they would not outperform a Gotham. The advantage with two F113s has to do with non colocated placement. Dual Gothams would outperform dual f113s.

Two colocated F113s will have more enclosure volume and more amp power than a single Gotham while still using two of the same dirvers. So, it will take more EQ to get the Gotham flat due to its smaller per driver enclosure, further reducing its actual output comparitively speaking.

It is just physics and we talking pure output in comparing the two. SQ, or subjective listening comparison is different. The Gotham may have slightly different sound characteristics.

If you seperate the F113s then you lose 3db in output and a Gotham would have more output. The only advantage in sound in sperating two F113s is smoothing the response.

The same goes for just about any brands' dual vs. single enclosure. SVS PB-Ultra and Ultra/2 for instance. Two colocated singles will outgun a dual in output, but not in space savings...It is just simple physics at work, two colocated units will have more amp power, more enclosure volume and more port area than a dual single.

This was my exact theory on Dual 16-46+ vs a single PB-12/+2...

This was my exact theory on Dual 16-46+ vs a single PB-12/+2...

That comparison is a little different bg. You are dealing with two different native tunes there and enclosure styles. Below 25 Hz, no question the colocated 16-46s will easily outgun the PB12/2. Above 25 it will be much closer since the 16-46s sacrifice a couple of dbs in output for the added extension.

Of course, if you seperate the 16-46s, then the PB12/2 will be closer in the bottom end and should crush the 16-46s above 25Hz.

You would have to ask Ed M. to get the exact answer there.

Ed and I talked alot about it before the purchase of the first 16-46+.

Co-locating would be my best option anyways...

But I think you know my brain is exploring the world of DIY now that I'm learning more and more...and I'm pretty handy with tools once I actually own them...

Ed and I talked alot about it before the purchase of the first 16-46+.

Co-locating would be my best option anyways...

But I think you know my brain is exploring the world of DIY now that I'm learning more and more...and I'm pretty handy with tools once I actually own them...

You are in the right place if want killer performance for less moola! DIY is definitely the king there. ;)

Originally Posted by jpmst3
Two colocated F113s will have more enclosure volume and more amp power than a single Gotham while still using two of the same dirvers. So, it will take more EQ to get the Gotham flat due to its smaller per driver enclosure, further reducing its actual output comparitively speaking.
The drivers in the f113 are not the same as in the Gotham, per JL. Amplifier power is almost 25% less per driver for the Gotham than the f113 and it's hard to say what the difference in cabinet volume is. I'm sure the EQ is different but I would not guess if it's more or less.

The drivers in the f113 are not the same as in the Gotham, per JL. Amplifier power is almost 25% less per driver for the Gotham than the f113 and it's hard to say what the difference in cabinet volume is. I'm sure the EQ is different but I would not guess if it's more or less.

They may not be EXACTLY the same drivers, but you can look at the cabinet dimensions and quickly determine that the volumes are nowhere close, especially since the Gotham back is curved further reducing internal volume. Even if they slightly tweak the driver parameters, I would bet that it requires more EQ down low for flat response in that tiny enclosure.

...but you can look at the cabinet dimensions and quickly determine that the volumes are nowhere close, especially since the Gotham back is curved further reducing internal volume.

I understand your argument. But, I can't draw that conclusion from the cabinet dimensions, especially not knowing the radius of the Gotham cabinet nor the displacement of the drivers, amp, bracing etc. of either box. Given the published dimensions the Gothom looks to be about double the size even giving consideration to the curved back.

If you look at this thread, http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10378519#post10378519 other pictures from the field trip, and comments from the participants, it's clear there is little room inside either cabinet.

It sounds like the Gotham W7's have a more powerful motor design; maybe more efficient, more control, I don't know, JL claims less distortion. Again, I'm sure the EQ is different but I would not say definitively more for the Gotham. And at the end of the day who really cares.

why wait? nothing on the horizon will touch the f113 unless you consider a pair of the upcoming Ultras or the Seaton Submerssive, neither of which has been reviewed or tested for the general public and probably won't be for a long time

of course if you're into wood finish SVS might be worth the wait

And at the end of the day who really cares.

Agreed!

TC sounds looks like it has some stuff in the works also

TC sounds looks like it has some stuff in the works also

Yep, they will have a couple nice packages with dual cubes and outboard amp. Should be pretty amazing for small cubes.

TC Sounds should release a sealed sub using the LMS-5400,then it would be serious competition for the sealed monster in the Fathom f113.

TC Sounds should release a sealed sub using the LMS-5400,then it would be serious competition for the sealed monster in the Fathom f113.

You got that right. Ditch the measly 12 and 13.5 inch drivers and go with something with some real grunt.

depending on the xmax of the JL woofer, wouldn't a single 15" or 18" high xmax 5400 TC sounds driver make the fathom cry home to mama ?

now if only TC sounds would sell these 5400's ...

perhaps the reason why they are holding the sale of the 5400's is because they are thinking about making a consumer sub out of the 5400 drivers?

depending on the xmax of the JL woofer, wouldn't a single 15" or 18" high xmax 5400 TC sounds driver make the fathom cry home to mama ?

now if only TC sounds would sell these 5400's ...

perhaps the reason why they are holding the sale of the 5400's is because they are thinking about making a consumer sub out of the 5400 drivers?

They are going to make a sub based on the 5400s. It is a monster, shown at CES.

They typically make drivers types in large batches. They will make LMSs in all varieties very soon.

And yes, that is why the Ear and a couple of others are cotemplating DIY. Some have sold or are selling their F113s and going the DIY route. You can crush the 113 and do it cheaper. ;)

If someone is contemplating spending the type of coin associated with the JL sub in question, plus actually using it, isn't it a reasonable bet that it's highly likely the person in question is a homeowner? DIY is IMO a one way street. Less money for the desired result, even if the homeowner hires someone else to do the DIYing (don't know the acronym for that). An infinite baffle with enough cone area and fed enough power could generate serious bass, for example, and there are numerous options for a box or tube design as well. No need to buy commercial unless one really wants to spend the coin.

again witht the DIY? please show me show DIY projects with the looks and build quality of a Fathom, SVS, Aerial etc......]

Tc sounds IS-122 looks sweet 1800.00 for two with 2200 watt rms amp or 2200 for the 15 inch versions (if I'm reading their site correctly)

I think every sub freak should have one passive system with external amp

of course TC Sounds has been pushing vaporware going on a year now so I'll guess we'll see

again witht the DIY? please show me show DIY projects with the looks and build quality of a Fathom, SVS, Aerial etc......]


Trust me, they are out there, but scattered around. Check the DIY projects sticky thread. There are some pretty nice projects there. You need to search around to find others. With a little skill you can build a better cabinet than the commercial offerings.

Most but not all DIYers build something, try it, then build something else. The fun is in the design and build. After all, anyone can buy and listen.
It really isn't that difficult to make a black gloss cabinet, ala JL113, it just takes time and elbow grease. If you don't try you will never know...

Just in case you are interested, here is a thread discussing that very thing:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=838440

You can always wait for something better (it will eventually come), but if you always wait for something better, you will never get anything... because something better yet might be on the horizon.

At some point you have to get a subwoofer and start enjoying it.

You can always wait for something better (it will eventually come), but if you always wait for something better, you will never get anything... because something better yet might be on the horizon.

At some point you have to get a subwoofer and start enjoying it.

No doubt! ;)

there is no DIY project with fathom looks and build quality on the planet that could possibly cost less money and stay under 100 man hours

there is no DIY project with fathom looks and build quality on the planet that could possibly cost less money and stay under 100 man hours

Oh brother! :D :D

Hey, there are people that believe that the earth is flat, mankind never landed on the moon, we are in the Matrix right now, etc. :D

LMAO...good one!

Although this has nothing to do with this thread. :eek:

Seriously though, who knows how long anything takes to build.

Everyone's skill set and level are completely different. Some people have access to blow molds, fiberglass, etc that they could make an enclosure quickly and easily and some may have access to a paint booth to apply lacquer and clear. Others may only have a hammer and hand saw.

A statement like that is a stretch at the very least. It is all relative. Someone out there might be able to do it in 10, it could take others a 1000.

I have friends that are carpenters and I have seen them build a furniture gallery quality chest, dresser, entertainment center, dining table, etc. each in a single day working leisurely. All it takes is the skill and TOOLS. Could I, not hardly. But there are many that could. We are only talking about a sub box here, not St. John's Cathedral.

depending on the xmax of the JL woofer, wouldn't a single 15" or 18" high xmax 5400 TC sounds driver make the fathom cry home to mama ?

now if only TC sounds would sell these 5400's ...

perhaps the reason why they are holding the sale of the 5400's is because they are thinking about making a consumer sub out of the 5400 drivers?

OT here but...

As a proud owner of three JL Audio Fathoms...

I am building a dual TC-3000 15" vented monster powered by a Crown XTi4000 and next up is a dual ported LMS-5400 18" powered by a Crown I-Tech 6000.

These 12 and 20cu ft subs will trounce any commercial in output down very deep(16Hz on down). Well they will be BIG and very very heavy not what most will consider realistic.

Can we please avoid a DIY vs. Commercial argument? Nobody wins when it goes down that path, and this is not the DIY forum.

exactly, not the diy forum

OT here but...

As a proud owner of three JL Audio Fathoms...

I am building a dual TC-3000 15" vented monster powered by a Crown XTi4000 and next up is a dual ported LMS-5400 18" powered by a Crown I-Tech 6000.

These 12 and 20cu ft subs will trounce any commercial in output down very deep(16Hz on down). Well they will be BIG and very very heavy not what most will consider realistic.


I agree with manville....lets take the DIY talk elsewhere.........but I'm curious on why you are choosing ported (spaecially BIG ported) as your alignment for those TC3ks? :confused: That's about the absolute worst possible use of those drivers. They are made for small sealed applications with tons of power; in an EBS alignment, they will fart.

we can talk offline or start a new thread over in DIY....I would hate to see you waste your time with big ported implementations of those drivers.

Can we please avoid a DIY vs. Commercial argument? Nobody wins when it goes down that path, and this is not the DIY forum.

Sorry ...I got carried away a bit.

Well my answer is a few posts up,as you can see I said WHY WAIT? and to go with the Fathom as it is the finest sub under 5K,and priced well below 5K.

again witht the DIY? please show me show DIY projects with the looks and build quality of a Fathom, SVS, Aerial etc......]

An infinite baffle setup will look like an AC or heater vent on the wall, floor, or ceiling. The vent can be painted to match the surface it's mounted on or painted white or whatever. That's it. No box, no tube, nothing. Just a vent. Nothing to protrude into a room, nothing to comment on as far as "looks" go. If done correctly, all the user will end up with is money in their pocket, sound that can be simply astounding, and a clean look.

However, I do concede that if the commercial hyper-$$$ subs are as well built as people say, they could double as a stepping stool or be used to support a plant or something. Still, there are less expensive options for those uses also. To each their own.

EDIT: I also do understand that some rooms simply can't host an IB setup. For those users, a box or tube is the only way to go, sure.

At some point you have to get a subwoofer and start enjoying it.

Lol...or two...or three.

Stop waiting or life will pass you by ...

Good things come to those who wait...eternal rest comes to those who wait too long. :rolleyes: