Sony has announced that they will be producing B/V laser diodes for use in Blu-ray devices (recorders, players and PS3). What effect will this have on the format war now that one of the senior BDA members can produce 5m diodes a month for very little money, compared to the relatively high price of the precious diodes in the past.

Link (http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/200704/07-037E/index.html)

Price list:

Blue-violet laser diode for BD recorder

"SLD3234VF" (output 170mW, φ5.6mm)=4,500 Yen
"SLD3234VFI" (output 170mW, φ3.8mm)=5,000 Yen

Blue-violet laser diode for BD player

"SLD3131VF" (output 20mW, φ5.6mm)=900 Yen
"SLD3131VFI" (output 20mW, φ3.8mm)=1,000 Yen

Blue-violet laser diode for BD recorder

"SLD3235VF" (output 240mW, φ5.6mm)=4,500 Yen
"SLD3235VFI" (output 240mW, φ3.8mm)=5,000 Yen

How much of a drop are the new prices?

1) How much were they previously?

2) What is the significance of the 5.6 vs. 3.8 mm?

3) What is the significance of the 170 vs. 240 mW?

4) Is pricing of diodes for HD DVD (and combos) in the same ballpark?

1) How much were they previously?

2) What is the significance of the 5.6 vs. 3.8 mm?

3) What is the significance of the 170 vs. 240 mW?

4) Is pricing of diodes for HD DVD (and combos) in the same ballpark?

1) No idea, but this is a significant reduction, I am told.

2) For smaller devices, camcorders, external drives, portable players etc...

3) The higher powered one probably has a higher write speed, but that is a guess.

4) I couldn't say because I don't know, but this is the lowest price B/V diode I have ever seen for use in CE applications.

Also, it is unlikely that these are compatible with HD DVD, so it will come down to Nicchia's pricing for HD DVD.

First of all, it's puzzles me that the news of a Wal-mart deal to make 2,000,000 HD DVD players remains in the HD DVD forum, but somehow, the news of a decrease in the price of a Blu-ray laser diode is worthy of being discussed by all manner of HighDef supporters.

Ok, so now the speculation that is the whole point of this thread starts. Let's assume the price has dropped to 20% of the current manufacturing price. That may be extreme or not, but that's means it now costs $40 less to make a Blu-ray drive then it used to. Whatever.

Here is USA dollars for reference

Blue-violet laser diode for BD recorder

"SLD3234VF" (output 170mW, φ5.6mm)= $38
"SLD3234VFI" (output 170mW, φ3.8mm)= $43

Blue-violet laser diode for BD player

"SLD3131VF" (output 20mW, φ5.6mm)= $8
"SLD3131VFI" (output 20mW, φ3.8mm)= $9

Blue-violet laser diode for BD recorder

"SLD3235VF" (output 240mW, φ5.6mm)=$38
"SLD3235VFI" (output 240mW, φ3.8mm)=$43

Also, it is unlikely that these are compatible with HD DVD, so it will come down to Nicchia's pricing for HD DVD.
They're just diodes. Isn't the the lens separate - if so, both can use?

I believe it was how the news was broached about the Walmart thing (extreme claims of winning, etc).

Obviously we don't know how significant this news is without knowing the previous price, but anything that reduces the cost of manufacturing has to be a good thing for everyone. I would imagine the BDA will be working that much harder the next couple months to bring down manufacturing costs.

The only thing I find interesting about this announcement is that it looks very much like Sony has realized their goal of producing blue violet laser diodes in mass quantities. Previously, no one knew how much one of these diodes cost; speculation was everywhere from $10 to $500.

From this, though, a $9 price tag effectively silences the HD DVD supporters who claim that the Blu-ray drives cost significantly more to produce (considering the only known difference in basic drive hardware is the laser diode itself, it appears the cost differential is at most "A Fistful of Dollars" :) ).

To meet this demand, Sony had already installed front-end wafer process equipment capable of producing 5 million blue-violet laser diodes (BD playback-only equivalent) per month.

Does anyone have the yeild rates on these? As one would presume the 5 million per month is the gross number manufactured, and not the final number of useable units.

The only thing I find interesting about this announcement is that it looks very much like Sony has realized their goal of producing blue violet laser diodes in mass quantities. Previously, no one knew how much one of these diodes cost; speculation was everywhere from $10 to $500.

From this, though, a $9 price tag effectively silences the HD DVD supporters who claim that the Blu-ray drives cost significantly more to produce (considering the only known difference in basic drive hardware is the laser diode itself, it appears the cost differential is at most "A Fistful of Dollars" :) ).

Which effectively means a low cost player could show up when they need one to.

But that should always have been evident. The intial cost difference betweent he formats had nothing to do with the consumer end, and was about the cost of producing software, specifically the up front investment to produce software. HD DVD had the advantage (to studios) of being able to retrofit onto current DVD pressing lines, and hence would be less expensive to produce during mass adoption. Since reports have indicated that HD DVD pressing lines have all been de noveu so far, there is most likely little difference in media production (although mass adoption that coincided with a reduction in DVD manufacturship might still be less expensive with HD DVD for the studios).

There has never been a rational arguement for a price advantage in HD DVD hardware. Toshiba (and more recently Microsoft) have simply been eating development costs because HD DVD was doomed without some sort of hook to drive adoption on merits outside of technical specs. Outside of price, what were the going to do? The fact that VC-1 matured (with a large and unrecouped influx of cash) just in time for the launch helped make HD DVD look better as well as cheaper. While that difference has gone away, the price difference has been agressively maintained, most recently with the bankrolling of SoC designs readmade for Chinese manufacturing. We can expect a similar rejoinder prior to shipment by the BDA, as it doesn't actually cost most to make BD players, they were just trying to make up their development costs as they went, since they otherwise had the advantage with marketing (initially), hardware and software support.

Here is USA dollars for reference
Blue-violet laser diode for BD player
"SLD3131VF" (output 20mW, φ5.6mm)= $8
"SLD3131VFI" (output 20mW, φ3.8mm)= $9

Great news for both optical formats. My understanding is that both formats use the same blue diodes. Well maybe not the exact same ones (I doubt Sony will be selling any to Toshiba) but similar diodes.

The best news is that by cutting prices Sony is indicating it has solved the supply problems which lead to low # of diodes available.

So lowering the cost of the diode and increasing the supply is important but what about the rest of the pickup unit?

What make BD and HD DVD different is the lens, and pickup assembly.

Lens.
BD packs data in tighter by using a larger numerical aperture. This make a smaller cone of light on the disc. (It also requires the data layer to be closer to top of disc but that is more an optical media issue). A smaller spot of light means the pits that are smaller and closer together can be detected. There is a disadvantages to using a new aperture. The BD lens is a new design that has higher cost and requires tighter tolerances. HD uses the same aperture as DVD & CD. A component with more than two decades of R&D, refinement, and study. Current HD DVD/DVD/CD apertures are very high yields and low costs pretty much a commodity component. Economies of scale and all that.

Pickup.
Now since the BD lens can't focus light for DVD and CD diodes it requires a 2nd lens for backward compatibility. Here is a pic (warning large) of close up on a VAIO http://37prime.com/bluray_03.jpg. A HD DVD player would simply have one lens with an infrared diode (CD), red light diode (DVD), and blue light diode (HD DVD). This makes for a more compact pickup (kinda like a Tacoma vs Tundra :D ). The smaller pickup on HD DVD makes the servo assembly that moves it around lighter and cheaper to make. BD has another disadvantage when it comes to cost of the optics. Since it's pits are much smaller the servo controls needs to be at higher level of tolerance. The beam of light has about 30% less margin for error meaning the optic is going to be higher level component and be more expensive and complex to design. The cone of light is smaller and must be positioned over the track which is smaller. Combine the three and you have a larger heaver needing to move quickly and more accurately while focusing a smaller beam on a smaller data pit. A lot of work for that pickup to do.

My understanding is that the diode is only a small cost of the entire optical assembly. HD DVD shares the same diode cost but every part of it's assembly is cheaper, higher yield, and easier to produce in bulk.

I guess we will never see the total price but I would be very interested in the total optical assembly costs (i.e drive minus interface).

Does anybody know how much of the PS3 cost to Sony was attributed to these diodes in a breakdown that showed them losing a lot on each unit?

--Darin

Does anybody know how much of the PS3 cost to Sony was attributed to these diodes in a breakdown that showed them losing a lot on each unit?

--Darin

The drive was put at about $180 and I can tell you now that the main bulk of that cost is because of the diode (my background in semi-conductor chemistry is useful for all of this).

1) No idea, but this is a significant reduction, I am told.
By whom?

Given the title chosen for the thread, it would be nice to know if it is a reduction or not, and if so by how much...

By whom?

Given the title chosen for the thread, it would be nice to know if it is a reduction or not, and if so by how much...

Dr Blake, in my department is a semi-conductor specialist with many years of experience in this field, also he has worked for companies including Intel, IBM and more recently Samsung. He made an educated guess of around £50 when I asked in November, and I trust what he says when it comes to anything semi-conductor. He said based on a pretty poor yield and expensive starting materials that a target of £50 is feasible when volumes are large, but getting them high powered is difficult as the GaN process is troublesome.

Sony must have made a breakthrough (well he talked about one in November, said an unnamed company will be able to mass-produce B/V diodes soon, I guess he was talking about Sony) and got some A grade samples through at a feasible yield.

Dr Blake, in my department is a semi-conductor specialist with many years of experience in this field, also he has worked for companies including Intel, IBM and more recently Samsung. He made an educated guess of around £50 when I asked in November, and I trust what he says when it comes to anything semi-conductor. He said based on a pretty poor yield and expensive starting materials that a target of £50 is feasible when volumes are large, but getting them high powered is difficult as the GaN process is troublesome.

Sony must have made a breakthrough (well he talked about one in November, said an unnamed company will be able to mass-produce B/V diodes soon, I guess he was talking about Sony) and got some A grade samples through at a feasible yield.

$50 maybe. Nichia is the inventor and worlds largest producer of B/V diodes. They had 30% yields about a year ago. Figure Sony had about the same (both companies cross license the technology and shared R&D costs). So even if the went from 30% to 90% that means their cost / unit was cut by 2/3. I personally doubt that the yields are that high yet but lets just go with it for the sake of argument. Sony and Nichia were simply high balling the pricing because supply coudn't keep up with demand. They were using 100% of their production runs there was no incentive to reduce prices. Sharp's BV factory will be ramping up production soon and Sanyo has announced they are getting into B/V diode production. Sony likely decided it was a good time to bring prices down to snag some good contracts and increases global supply of this required component. So "if" the diode cost $50 last year and cost $8 now then the average BD player & PS3 BOM just went down $42. $42 out of retail price of $600 - $1000 or about 4% - 7%. The true cost of BD comes from a combination of things but mainly a radical break from the proven optical progression CD -> DVD -> HD.

BD throws the baby with the bathwater when going to a new physical/optical layer. Then adds even more complexity by adding everything HD DVD brought to an already overly complicated format. Then adds all the stuff the broke away from back in the form of backwards compatibility w/ CD & DVD.

So once again this is great news because it means that the supply constriants are beiing lifted on next gen optical diodes (same diodes used in BD & HD DVD I checked Nichia website. This will do nothing to bring Bluray down to the prices that will allow mass market adoption. A $40 cost savings (and I suspect more like $20-$30) will bring that Sony DVD player from $100 to $960. It will allow Sony to lose only $210 instead of $250 on every PS3 sold.

Well that would be 40 million less they would lose for every million PS3 units they sell.

So once again this is great news because it means that the supply constriants are beiing lifted on next gen optical diodes (same diodes used in BD & HD DVD I checked Nichia website. This will do nothing to bring Bluray down to the prices that will allow mass market adoption. A $40 cost savings (and I suspect more like $20-$30) will bring that Sony DVD player from $100 to $960. It will allow Sony to lose only $210 instead of $250 on every PS3 sold.

Don't you think it likely that after producing over 6 million Blu-ray drives just for the PS3 that economies of scale would be likely to have already started bringing that cost down?

The only thing I find interesting about this announcement is that it looks very much like Sony has realized their goal of producing blue violet laser diodes in mass quantities. Previously, no one knew how much one of these diodes cost; speculation was everywhere from $10 to $500.

From this, though, a $9 price tag effectively silences the HD DVD supporters who claim that the Blu-ray drives cost significantly more to produce (considering the only known difference in basic drive hardware is the laser diode itself, it appears the cost differential is at most "A Fistful of Dollars" :) ).raw diodes are just a component in the drives.....Still having to focus the laser on the top of the disc for Blu-ray still may be the expensive part of the problem. HD DVD players seems to be able to use less expensive components that can still maintain DVD and CD in one optical unit for the both red and blue lasers

But any cost reduction and greater available for the blu-laser diodes is a significant plus for Blu-ray.

Those blu diodes could also be used in HD DVD units, if anyone wanted to do so :D

A $40 cost savings (and I suspect more like $20-$30) will bring that Sony DVD player from $100 to $960. It will allow Sony to lose only $210 instead of $250 on every PS3 sold.

Assuming that its the only cost Sony can cut which is ludicrous. The next PS3 revision will be have new 65nm cell chips, cheaper blue diodes, simpler circuit board design(no hardware PS2 compatibility), and economics of scale. I think they could shave off at least $100 off the cost.

Now since the BD lens can't focus light for DVD and CD diodes it requires a 2nd lens for backward compatibility. Here is a pic (warning large) of close up on a VAIO . A HD DVD player would simply have one lens with an infrared diode (CD), red light diode (DVD), and blue light diode (HD DVD). This makes for a more compact pickup (kinda like a Tacoma vs Tundra :D ).

Not quite correct anymore. I can't post URLs yet, so assemble it yourself, here is a dissection of the laser assembly from a PS3:

fineartradiography com /hobbies/lasers/blu-ray/index.html

google the part number KES-400AAA to get some better images. I see only one disc read lens.

www.fineartradiography.com/hobbies/lasers/blu-ray/index.html

This is the PS3 optics torn down.

This is a solution that has a beam splitter to reflect either Blue Violet or Red into the final variable focus lense asssemblies.

Ain't as simple as an HD DVD unit, but it works for both the 650nm and 780nm wavelengths and the three required focal lengths.

Great link

A couple of corrections. First I never said the diode was the only cost cutting measure sony will take. No doubt they are generating economies of scale and soon will move to 65nm, going to software emulation for PS & PS2 games, etc. However the article seems to make it seem like cutting diode costs down to <$10 will cause massive drops in Bluray players and this simply is not the case. Also remember the PS3 costs about $850 to build at launch. So even if Sony was selling it at cost that would make the retail price $900+. The point is Bluray is expensive. There is a price to pay for going to a higher NA. Bluray players cost (excluding Sony's subsidy on the PS3) $800 - $1200 while the HD DVD cost $300 - $600. This fall HD DVD will be in the $200 - $500 range while Bluray has barely budged $600 - $1000.

Great link Darjeeling
Here it is in all it's linky goodness:
http://www.fineartradiography.com/hobbies/lasers/blu-ray/index.html

I stand corrected Sony has been able to make a single optical pathway. However it is an internal servo that switch different lens to allow for proper numerical aperture. A better solution however but a similar optical pickup unit for HD DVD would be still simpler, lighter, and cheaper. Parts I & J & K are needed because of the higher/different NA.

I = the mechanical lens servo that positions alternate lens for DVD & CD usage.
J = I have never seen on consumer grade optics is used to shape the beam further likely due to issues with getting exact focus involving multiple lens.
K = The actual high NA lens, much larger, made of glass and very high precision. A DVD/CD lens is now made out of plastic and costs are negligble in bulk ($0.02 maybe?)

Maybe I can find a read only DVD/CD drive for compariosn lying around somewhere. Kinda hard to find read only drives these days though. Very good engineering on the part of Sony though.

www.fineartradiography.com/hobbies/lasers/blu-ray/index.html

This is the PS3 optics torn down.

This is a solution that has a beam splitter to reflect either Blue Violet or Red into the final variable focus lense asssemblies.

Ain't as simple as an HD DVD unit, but it works for both the 650nm and 780nm wavelengths and the three required focal lengths.

Great link

Posted at the same time. Slight correction there are only 2 focal lengths. HD DVD / DVD / CD all use same NA 0.65*. BD uses a 0.85 NA. The the wavelengths are 405nm, 650nm, 780nm.

* CD & DVD are actually 0.60 but 0.65 was used for HD DVD because it increases capacity and still allows compatibility w/ CD & DVD through a single lens.

The cost of making HD players will continue to come down due to technical breakthroughs like the diode production.

Another article posted in the headlines of the forum recently is similar good news.
http://www.audioholics.com/news/industry-news/cirrus-debuts-new-cs49700-hd-chipset.html

As the parts count is reduced, so are manufacturing costs.

It's great news that the manufacturers are viewing HD players as a profitable venture.

-Byrd

Great news, thanks for the article link.

1) No idea, but this is a significant reduction, I am told.

2) For smaller devices, camcorders, external drives, portable players etc...

3) The higher powered one probably has a higher write speed, but that is a guess.

4) I couldn't say because I don't know, but this is the lowest price B/V diode I have ever seen for use in CE applications.

Also, it is unlikely that these are compatible with HD DVD, so it will come down to Nicchia's pricing for HD DVD.

This is not a signifigant reduction. Blue laser diodes could be bought in January in quantities of 1 for $24. Bulk quantities subject to a 30discount. The problem then however, was availability. They were all on backorder everywhere because Sony and Toshiba were consuming 80% of supply.

However, since that time, more manufacturers have started entering the market, and Sony has been buying fewer (I guess this article explains why, they make their own now). So supply has loosened up and prices have dropped. You can now buy the diode in a quantity of 1 for about $10, again, with a discount for buying bulk.

So what this article tells me is that Sony can now manufacture the diodes instead of purchasing them and they control their own supply. There is no signifigant cost reduction here.

These same lasers could be used on BD or HD-DVD. About The only difference between the actual laser diode is the focal distance created by the lense.

I don't think you are accurately describing the situation here. Sony could already buy these diodes for the same price they are selling them for. However, Sony could not get as many as they want, for the price that they want. So there is a cost reduction from say, last year to this year, but that reduction has little to do with manufacturing their own diodes (they may save a $1 or $2 extra, as $7.50 is their list price, and they probably cost them about $5.50 to manufacture). Also, HD-DVD makes the same gain from the cost reduction.

So since January, The price has fallen from about $17 in bulk to about $8 in bulk for HD-DVD. Since Sony is making their own, the price reduction for them is $17 to $6. An $11 manufacturing cost reduction for BD devices, comared to HD-DVD's $9 reduction.

This is the problem with cost reducing a component used by your competitor, they share the same gain. If their product is cheaper, the % of price decrease is actually greater for them. So they end up looking better on the bottom line than you do, and you drove the cost reduction. For Sony to gain ground on price with HD-DVD, they need to be cost reducing components that are not shared in HD DVD.

1) No idea, but this is a significant reduction, I am told.

2) For smaller devices, camcorders, external drives, portable players etc...

3) The higher powered one probably has a higher write speed, but that is a guess.

4) I couldn't say because I don't know, but this is the lowest price B/V diode I have ever seen for use in CE applications.

Also, it is unlikely that these are compatible with HD DVD, so it will come down to Nicchia's pricing for HD DVD.


So in other words we don't know jackshit but we believe everything for BDA... very smart, I admit. :D

I don't know too much about diode pricing but I'm pretty sure it will have ZERO EFFECT on the ridiculously overpriced Blu-Ray players when these diodes represent sub-$50 level cost anyway.

PS: I would also like to know why this another "we won" announcement didn't say a word about availabililty... I call it another PR BS, that is.

So in other words we don't know jackshit but we believe everything for BDA... very smart, I admit. :D

I don't know too much about diode pricing but I'm pretty sure it will have ZERO EFFECT on the ridiculously overpriced Blu-Ray players when these diodes represent sub-$50 level cost anyway.

PS: I would also like to know why this another "we won" announcement didn't say a word about availabililty... I call it another PR BS, that is.


Where did it say "we won"? on this article.

Where did it say "we won"? on this article.

I never said it was you... ;)

This is not a signifigant reduction. Blue laser diodes could be bought in January in quantities of 1 for $24. Bulk quantities subject to a 30discount. The problem then however, was availability. They were all on backorder everywhere because Sony and Toshiba were consuming 80% of supply.

However, since that time, more manufacturers have started entering the market, and Sony has been buying fewer (I guess this article explains why, they make their own now). So supply has loosened up and prices have dropped. You can now buy the diode in a quantity of 1 for about $10, again, with a discount for buying bulk.

So what this article tells me is that Sony can now manufacture the diodes instead of purchasing them and they control their own supply. There is no signifigant cost reduction here.

These same lasers could be used on BD or HD-DVD. About The only difference between the actual laser diode is the focal distance created by the lense.

I don't think you are accurately describing the situation here. Sony could already buy these diodes for the same price they are selling them for. However, Sony could not get as many as they want, for the price that they want. So there is a cost reduction from say, last year to this year, but that reduction has little to do with manufacturing their own diodes (they may save a $1 or $2 extra, as $7.50 is their list price, and they probably cost them about $5.50 to manufacture). Also, HD-DVD makes the same gain from the cost reduction.

So since January, The price has fallen from about $17 in bulk to about $8 in bulk for HD-DVD. Since Sony is making their own, the price reduction for them is $17 to $6. An $11 manufacturing cost reduction for BD devices, comared to HD-DVD's $9 reduction.

This is the problem with cost reducing a component used by your competitor, they share the same gain. If their product is cheaper, the % of price decrease is actually greater for them. So they end up looking better on the bottom line than you do, and you drove the cost reduction. For Sony to gain ground on price with HD-DVD, they need to be cost reducing components that are not shared in HD DVD.Where did you get the figure for HD DVD without subsidization and how did you know the real cost of the diodes manufactured at Sony?

For comparison purpose, from a Nov 2006 article about Sharp:
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20061020/122535/
Sharp Corp. has developed "GH04020A2GE," a blue violet semiconductor laser diode for use in Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD players and will start sample shipment in November 1, 2006. The maximum optical output is 20 mW. When the optical output is set to 10 mW at room temperature, the product ensures the power consumption and life of 168 mW and 10,000 hours, respectively. Sharp says that it has applied its compound semiconductor crystal growth technology that was achieved based on accumulated experience in the development of infrared and red semiconductor laser diodes to the latest product. As a result, the company has achieved what it claims to be the industry's smallest power consumption and the longest life at the same time. Sample price is ¥10,000 per piece. The monthly output target is 150,000 pieces.
10,000 yen, or $84.37. So it's almost 90% reduction for the retail price.

I never said it was you... ;)


Again I say...

Where did IT say 'we won'?

I didn't say I. :p

For comparison purpose, from a Nov 2006 article about Sharp:
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20061020/122535/
10,000 yen, or $84.37. So it's almost 90% reduction for the retail price.

Khm...

http://www.eetimes.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=194500229


(11/20/2006 10:16 AM EST)

TOKYO — Sharp Corp. has become the second merchant supplier of blue-laser diodes, following Nichia Corp. Sharp said it has already started supplying the diodes to an undisclosed client.

Nichia and Sony Corp. are producing blue-violet lasers in volume at present under a cross-licensing deal. For now, however, Sony's capacity is dedicated to internal use for production of the Playstation 3.

On the merchant market, Sharp's capacity will supplement Nichia's supply, which is estimated to be several hundred thousand units a month. Sharp has a startup capacity of 150,000 units a month and can expand that depending on the volume of orders, according to a spokesman.

Sharp said it has no plans at present to detail its technology at academic conferences, but it did say it believes its blue-laser diode does not infringe Nichia or Sony patents.

The Sharp diode emits at 406 nanometers with 20-milliwatt maximum power out for read-only applications, such as for Blu-ray Disc and HD-DVD players. The diode achieves a 10,000-hour lifetime with continuous-wave operation at 5-mW power output. Power consumption is 168 mW.

Samples are available for about $85 apiece.

In other words these are for players, Sony's stuff are for recorders and ~7 months passed in between.

I found this one on Shapr's recorder diodes:

http://www.eetimes.com/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=2GCT0UEZ5S0BEQSNDLRSKH0CJUNN2JV N?articleID=198001549

(03/16/2007 1:12 PM EDT)

TOKYO — Claiming the highest power laser thus far, a 210-mW diode, Sharp said it plans to expand its position in the blue-violet laser market.

Top supplier Nichia Corp. is currently sampling a 180-mW laser, and has also announced development of a 320-mW diode but has not said when it will announce availability.

Sharp's blue-violet diode, GH04P21A2G, is a 406-nm laser with 210-mW optical power output in pulsed operation with a 10,000-hour lifetime at 75 degrees C. The optical power meets assumed requirements for drives and recorders that record data at 6 times normal speed on two-layered Blu-ray or HD DVD disks. So-called 6X recording devices are expected to appear on the market late this year in a 5.6-mm-diameter package.

Sharp said it will begin sampling the diode on April 2 at a price of $450 each. Volume production will follow in May. Sharp's diode would have the highest output power, exceeding Nichia's 130- and 180-mW diodes.

Sharp entered the blue-violet laser diode market last November as the third volume manufacturer after Nichia and Sony Corp. Sony is now concentrating on internal supplies. Sharp said its goal is to surpass Nichia, which has been long been the sole diode supplier.

"We are aiming at over 50 percent share in the blue-violet laser diode market," said Naotaka Ohtsuka, division general manager of Sharp's compound semiconductor systems division. The blue laser diode market is expected to reach 50 million units in 2008.

Based on red laser demand for DVDs, Sharp estimates that the market for blue-violet lasers with low-power diodes used in player applications will grow to 100 million units by as early as 2009. The market for high-power diodes used in recorder applications will grow to an estimated 100 million units about two years later, Sharp forecast.

"We are producing infrared and red laser diodes at a monthly capacity of 25 million units, and our share is more than 50 percent in the infrared laser market and about 30 percent in the red laser market," Ohtsuka said.

Sapphire substrates are generally used for blue-violet laser fabrication, but Sharp uses gallium nitride substrates. Its proprietary facet structure contributed to achieving 210-mW power output, said Ohtsuka.

Sharp estimated that required output power for blue-violet lasers will increase annually in proportion to faster drive speeds. Optical power of 250 mW will be required by 2008 to record at 8X speeds on two- layered disks. By 2009, 350-mW power will be needed for 12x recording on two-layered disks.

Sharp has completed work on a laser with a 350-mW output power in pulsed operation. Lifetime is estimated to be 6,000 hours. "We'll introduce the 350-mW diode depending on demand from the market," said Ohtsuka.

Starting with a capacity of 150,000 units a month, Sharp plans to expand monthly capacity to 250,000 units in March and 500,000 units by the third quarter of 2007.

Nichia is now sampling a 180-mW diode. "We are watching how much output power is required on the market. If the market demands a higher power diode, we are ready to supply it," a Nichia spokeswoman said.

Nichia last month announced development of a diode with 320-mW pulsed output. Nichia verified stable operation at 80 degrees C for 1,000 hours and estimated that the lifetime is more than 10,000 hours. That output power meets requirements for recording data at 10X speeds on two-layered disks or at 2X on four-layered disks, according to Nichia.

Nichia is currently ramping up production capacity from about 500.000 units a month last summer to 2 million units a month by the third quarter of 2007. Investment totals ¥17 billion (about $146 million).

Where did you get the figure for HD DVD without subsidization and how did you know the real cost of the diodes manufactured at Sony?


What are you talking about? I never mentioned anything about subsidization. I was talking about the price of blue laser diodes on the open market, where anyone can purchase them.

As for the price of the Sony diode, I took an educated guess. The prices listed in that article are prices the diode can be BOUGHT from Sony for. I assume they are probably marking up their cost to manufacture by 20-30% for profit. This is a standard mark-up in the industry. So the diode you can buy for $900 yen probably cost Sony around $700 yen to manufacture, thus $200 yen profit per diode.

For comparison purpose, from a Nov 2006 article about Sharp:
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20061020/122535/
10,000 yen, or $84.37. So it's almost 90% reduction for the retail price.


Keep in mind this is not a standard blue laser diode. It is made by an alternate manufacturing process to achieve low power consumption. This diode is 30% more efficient than standard diodes, which is a considerable improvement. They also boast a longer life (probably because less power equals less heat which equals longer life).

This is probaly a good diode for laptops or portable players.

You are trying to compare apples to oranges.

That's awesome... I want a Blu-ray laser pointer. :D

Bluray players cost (excluding Sony's subsidy on the PS3) $800 - $1200 while the HD DVD cost $300 - $600. This fall HD DVD will be in the $200 - $500 range while Bluray has barely budged $600 - $1000.



You exclude Sony's subsidy on the PS3, but include it on the Toshiba price?

He also ignores that the new Sammy is already under $700 at more than one etailer. IF he expects the BDP-S300 to stay at MSRP, he's out of his mind. Both will probably be well under $500 by fall. Meanwhile disc sales will still be priced competitively and likely still 2:1-5:1 in BD's favor. ;)

Anyone know what the pulse rate/duty cycle max rating is on these? Or a source for drivers? At $10 a pop I have some non-AV related ideas.

If I read correctly, they can do 10mW continuous, is that correct?

Keep in mind this is not a standard blue laser diode. It is made by an alternate manufacturing process to achieve low power consumption. This diode is 30% more efficient than standard diodes, which is a considerable improvement. They also boast a longer life (probably because less power equals less heat which equals longer life).

This is probaly a good diode for laptops or portable players.

You are trying to compare apples to oranges.

Agreed. Also comparing Sharp's old price to Sony's new price is faulty logic. Sharp had just begun production. They did not have the higher capacity that Sony & Nichia had in November. Likely they saw no reason to compete on price since most companies buying from them would likely be buying small batches for compatibility and usability testing. Sony really didn't have any retail price at the time considering they were using 100% of their run internally plus couple hundred thousand from Nichia.

Khm...

http://www.eetimes.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=194500229



In other words these are for players, Sony's stuff are for recorders and ~7 months passed in between.Read the OP again.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10372937&&#post10372937
Blue-violet laser diode for BD recorder

"SLD3234VF" (output 170mW, φ5.6mm)=4,500 Yen
"SLD3234VFI" (output 170mW, φ3.8mm)=5,000 Yen

Blue-violet laser diode for BD player

"SLD3131VF" (output 20mW, φ5.6mm)=900 Yen
"SLD3131VFI" (output 20mW, φ3.8mm)=1,000 Yen

What are you talking about? I never mentioned anything about subsidization. I was talking about the price of blue laser diodes on the open market, where anyone can purchase them.

As for the price of the Sony diode, I took an educated guess. The prices listed in that article are prices the diode can be BOUGHT from Sony for. I assume they are probably marking up their cost to manufacture by 20-30% for profit. This is a standard mark-up in the industry. So the diode you can buy for $900 yen probably cost Sony around $700 yen to manufacture, thus $200 yen profit per diode.Specifically this comment of yours is not related to your conclusion when there are no other HD DVD player manufacturer than Toshiba.
So since January, The price has fallen from about $17 in bulk to about $8 in bulk for HD-DVD.

Keep in mind this is not a standard blue laser diode. It is made by an alternate manufacturing process to achieve low power consumption. This diode is 30% more efficient than standard diodes, which is a considerable improvement. They also boast a longer life (probably because less power equals less heat which equals longer life).

This is probaly a good diode for laptops or portable players.

You are trying to compare apples to oranges.
What's special about Sharp's diode? Did you look at the spec sheet for the Sony's diode?

Agreed. Also comparing Sharp's old price to Sony's new price is faulty logic. Sharp had just begun production. They did not have the higher capacity that Sony & Nichia had in November. Likely they saw no reason to compete on price since most companies buying from them would likely be buying small batches for compatibility and usability testing. Sony really didn't have any retail price at the time considering they were using 100% of their run internally plus couple hundred thousand from Nichia.You're entirely missing the point, at the beginning of the production Sony should have had to invest as much as Sharp. If the earlier figure for Sony had been available I would have quoted it instead. Also Sharp had competitors at that time and now, the price must be competitive in the market so "just started production" is irelevant.

You're entirely missing the point, at the beginning of the production Sony should have had to invest as much as Sharp. If the earlier figure for Sony had been available I would have quoted it instead. Also Sharp had competitors at that time and now, the price must be competitive in the market so "just started production" is irelevant.

I get your point you are just comparing apples to oranges.

First Sony & Nichia had a huge head start on Sharp and were producing much larger volumes. As evident by this article as time goes on and efficiencies improve product cost drops. If their yields were low it is unlikely they could compete on price. Nichia may have been selling units at below their cost.

Sharp didn't have large scale production. They were sampling their product for CE companies could test them for compliance and usability. The method of production for Sharp is different than Sony & Nichia. Remember these diodes are low wattage devices and likely a good candidate for future products. Most companies would have no problem buying say 100 @ $80 ea for testing to determine failure rate, power usage, compatibility w/ existing designs etc. As Sharp ramps up production their prices will likley come down and their diodes bought by the companies that sampled their initial batch in 2006.

Once again just because Sharps PRICE for diodes was $80 that does not let us know Sony's COST durring the same time period.

Specifically this comment of yours is not related to your conclusion when there are no other HD DVD player manufacturer than Toshiba.



What's special about Sharp's diode? Did you look at the spec sheet for the Sony's diode?

Again, what are you talking about? You aren't making any sense.

As for your questions, Sharp's diode is made using a different manufacturing method. The result is a laser diode that consumes 30% less power.

It's like saying I can make an engine that gets 30 miles MPG and make another different kind of engine that gets 40 MPG. Just because they are both engines, and they both make cares move, doesn't mean that they are the same price. Likely, the 40 MPG engine will cost much more.

I have seen the power consumption spec for Sony's diode (or at least the diodes they were using on the PS3 in January) and I've seen Sharp's power consumption spec, which is less. I don't know how Sony manufactures their diodes, but Sharp claims to use a method not used by any other blue laser diode manufacturer. I believe they plan to patent the manufacturing process (or have already patented it for red laser, not sure if it needs to be re-patented here).

FYI, Sharp claimed 168 mW PC at 10 mW output (with 20 mW being a max output at ? PC). I don't remember the Sony spec exactly, but I believe it was around 280 mW at a 20 mW max output). The Sony was roughly 30% less at 10 mW, or in the neighborhod of 220 mW PC. Again, saw these in January, so this is the best I can do from memory. Despite the actual numbers, the point is, it isn't apples to apples.

Let me also comment on "sample" pricing. I was developing a device and needed to use some Burr-Brown DAC's that hadn't been released to market yet. To get two samples cost me about $20. When they came out a month later, Digi-Key had them in quantities of 1 for less that $4. In quantities of 100, I think they were about $2.

So I've been raked over the coals before on "Sample" pricing in the electronics industry.

I have seen the power consumption spec for Sony's diode (or at least the diodes they were using on the PS3 in January) and I've seen Sharp's power consumption spec, which is less. Where did you get the spec of the diode which are not sold to the outside? :confused:

Where did you get the spec of the diode which are not sold to the outside? :confused:

Stop with the FUD...

Directly from the link fron the Sony site in the OP:

..offering a comprehensive product lineup of blue-violet laser diodes for the wide-ranging needs of external customers as well as for use in Sony products.

Sony sells these. The prices listed in this thread are list prices for external customers, not Sony's own internal pricing. Anyone who wants to buy them can get the spec sheet from Sony. Further, Sony has used a mix of their own diodes and 3rd party diodes bought to keep up with demand. The spec sheets for those third party diodes are available from the diode manufacturers.

Stop acting like this data is some trade secret, when that is the furthest from the truth.

Stop with the FUD...

Directly from the link fron the Sony site in the OP:

.

Sony sells these. The prices listed in this thread are list prices for external customers, not Sony's own internal pricing. Anyone who wants to buy them can get the spec sheet from Sony.Are you evading the question deliberately? It's crystal clear that what I'm talking about is the diode Sony manufactured in 2006. The OP is the new offering from Sony beginning in June 2007. The part you quoted is about internal supply.
Further, Sony has used a mix of their own diodes and 3rd party diodes bought to keep up with demand.That's news to me. How did you know that?
The spec sheets for those third party diodes are available from the diode manufacturers.

Stop acting like this data is some trade secret, when that is the furthest from the truth.Where do you work for exactly? You sound like a Sony employee but with too many contradictions.

Are you evading the question deliberately? It's crystal clear that what I'm talking about is the diode Sony manufactured in 2006. The OP is the new offering from Sony beginning in June 2007. The part you quoted is about internal supply.
That's news to me. How did you know that?
Where do you work for exactly? You sound like a Sony employee but with too many contradictions.

Nothing you are saying is crystal clear, which further points to FUD.

The part that I quoted from Sony's own website was talking about internal and external supply of the blue laser diode.

What I have been talking about is the regular blue laser diode that Sony now says it can sell for 900 yen. The point I made was that the price of the Sharp diode in 2006 cannot be compared to the price of the Sony diode (as was attempted in this thread), because the Sharp diode is made using a more expensive manufacturing process that yields a more energy efficient diode.

Also, the price quoted for the Sharp diode was not the volume purchase price, like the 900 yen figure for Sony's diode, but rather, the price to obtain a single engineering sample.

To make myself more clear, you cannot take the $84 price of the Sharp diode in 2006, and say the Sony diode cost the same at that time, and therefore is less than 1/10 the cost today. One, the $84 price is inflated because it is a "sample" price and not the regular bulk purchase price, which is what the 900 yen price is. Second, the two items are made in different ways and the specs on the Sharp diode are better. This would indicate that the Sony price was even cheaper still, as usually more advanced technologies cost more to produce.

In Jan 2007, the Nichia blue laser diode (used in all non-Sony BD devices) could be bought in quantities of 1 for around $24. The bulk price was 30-40% below that. This was the open market price for a blue laser diode at that time. I guess you could claim that Sony was spending $200 to manufacture a part that could be purchased for $24, and the price drop to $8 is a gazillion percent improvement. However, such a claim is entirely unreasonable and sounds plain silly (it would also mean Sony are idiots).

HD DVD devices and BD devices use essentially the same diode, but a different laser head and drive assembly. So if the diode price drops and creates a $10 savings on a BD device, HD DVD devices also get the $10 drop. A $10 drop on a $600 item is a 1.6% cost reduction. A $10 drop on a $400 item is a 2.5% drop, so percentage wise, HD DVD will see a bigger cost reduction, in terms of percentage of cost. For BD to gain ground on price, they need to focus on cost reducing items that are specific to BD and not used in HD DVD (like beam splitter assemblies).

As for Sony using a mix of diodes, I guess that is a bit of speculation. The spec sheet I saw in January was a Nichia spec sheet, provided by a Nichia sales rep, who is the person that told me that they were also supplying blue laser diodes to Sony to make up for PS3 shortages. I also recall places like Computer World, PC Mag, etc running stories back in the Summer and Fall of 2006, making the same claims (Sony had turned to Nichia to provide the shortfall diodes they need for the PS3). No flags were raised for me, seeing it was reported on multiple sites and later confirmed by a sales rep. Sorry you are so far out of the loop on hearing that news.

And back to your original question, are you now claiming that Sony has one spec for the parts they used internally, and a seperate spec for the part they sell for 900 yen? It now sounds like this is what you are claiming.

So, basically, this might mean that blu-ray player prices can now match any reduction in HD-DVD player prices? I knew this would happen sooner or later, the question was how fast. Would those cheapo Hd-DVD players come before, or would Blu-ray match them price for price, thus nullifying any advantage of the HD-DVD format.

Except the CE (the bulk of which were the impetus to BDA from DVD Forum) don't want HD players to be reduced to commodity pricing prematurely. Though Toshiba may be forcing their hand.

So, basically, this might mean that blu-ray player prices can now match any reduction in HD-DVD player prices? I knew this would happen sooner or later, the question was how fast. Would those cheapo Hd-DVD players come before, or would Blu-ray match them price for price, thus nullifying any advantage of the HD-DVD format.

No, this in no way means Blu-ray players can match price reductions of HD DVD players. The guts of HD DVD and BD machines are entirely different, as are the licensing costs associated with each player. All I said is t hat if there is a drop in the price of blue laser diodes, both machines will see a price drop. However, if there is a price drop in the HD DVD specific components or BD specific components, the other format will not see the price drop. I don't know how you arrive at your statement. BD and HD DVD currently use different processors, laser heads, drive assemblies, etc. If HD DVD lowers the cost of the items they use, then BD will see no price drop for it, unless they redesign a new model to use the same components. However, since HD DVD has the less demanding specs (lower bandwidth, etc.) it stands to reason many of their parts can't be used in a BD player, and are likely initially cheaper, while BD player parts could be used in an HD DVD player, just not at their full capacity.

So if HD DVD costs reduces certain elements of their players, BD couldn't even use those cheaper parts if they wanted. However, if BD figured out how to make some of their parts much cheaper than HD DVD parts, HD DVD may be able to turn around and utilize the cheaper parts in future HD DVD players.

As always, the device with the more demanding specs will always have the tougher row to hoe if they want to try to race someone in cost reduction. It's the advantage of having a device on the cutting edge, as opposed to the bleeding edge.

Except the CE (the bulk of which were the impetus to BDA from DVD Forum) don't want HD players to be reduced to commodity pricing prematurely. Though Toshiba may be forcing their hand.

Yep, since not other CE's wanted to join with Toshiba against BD, Toshiba essentially has a hardware monopoly and can make any moves they want without consideration of other CE's.

I think Toshiba is in a win-win situation, even if HD DVD were to fail. If Toshiba can make HD DVD and break even, or even loose $10-20 million dollars on the endevour, they can still "win" if their competitors still loose more money than they do on BD. So if Sony looses $1 billion on Blu-ray and Toshiba lost $100 million on HD DVD, then Toshiba has essentially closed the net worth gap on Sony by $900 million, thus "winning", at least in the short term.

If both formats fail and Toshiba breaks even in the end. As long as Sony looses some substantial amount of money, then Toshiba "wins" despite a format failure.

They are in a very good position right now.

So, basically, this might mean that blu-ray player prices can now match any reduction in HD-DVD player prices? I knew this would happen sooner or later, the question was how fast. Would those cheapo Hd-DVD players come before, or would Blu-ray match them price for price, thus nullifying any advantage of the HD-DVD format.

Did you read the thread at all.
1) The diode is question is the exact same diode used for BOTH formats.
2) At best the production cost has gone from ~$20-$25 down now to <$8-9. Likely the BOM for BD and HD drive just went down <$20.
3) The diode isn't the expensive part of the optical assembly just the part that has been limited in qty.
4) The higher expense at the optical level is from the higher NA which requires a higher resolution lens (made of glass not plastic) and either 2 optical pathways or a complex design like the PS3 that has an internal beam focusing assembly and series of lens on a servo to focus at the two distinct NA (Numerical Apertures).

The good news which is hidden behind the FUD is that it looks like the supply issues are easing. Sony now has more than enough diodes for internal use meaning they are being sold on open market. Nichia has nearly doubled capacity. Sharp is ramping up production and Sanyo is starting research. Diodes will likely follow a reverse moore's law at this point. $10 now. $5 within 2 years. $2-3 in 4 years. $1 in 6 years, etc.

The other concern that has been eliminated is the effect the supply issues had on production numbers. Even if an HD DVD player could have been made for $99 in 2006 there was a hard limit on how many could be produced and that limit was mainly from diode limits. As diode production increases worldwide the number of HD devices will continue to grow. If we want HD to move beyond niche into mainstream it will take 10s of millions of devices and that requires large # of diodes.

First of all, it's puzzles me that the news of a Wal-mart deal to make 2,000,000 HD DVD players remains in the HD DVD forum, but somehow, the news of a decrease in the price of a Blu-ray laser diode is worthy of being discussed by all manner of HighDef supporters.

Ok, so now the speculation that is the whole point of this thread starts. Let's assume the price has dropped to 20% of the current manufacturing price. That may be extreme or not, but that's means it now costs $40 less to make a Blu-ray drive then it used to. Whatever.

For one thing, that 2000000 post thread is still a rumor and this one has been confirmed, so I trust this info more than the other one.

Taiwan-based makers of game consoles and components agree that it can be $100 cost reduction.
http://www.digitimes.com/systems/a20070507PD200.html
Production cost of PS3 could be cut by US$100

Yen Ting Chen, Taipei; Adam Hwang, DIGITIMES [Monday 7 May 2007]

As blue-laser pick-up heads (PUHs) for use in the PlayStation 3 (PS3) are expected to increase in supply and decrease in price, the production cost of the game console could be reduced by as much as US$100, according to Taiwan-based makers of game consoles and components.

Sony Shiroishi Semiconductor, a wholly owned subsidiary of Sony, on April 23 announced an expansion of its monthly production capacity of blue-violet laser diodes, a key component of HD-DVD and Blu-ray Disc (BD) PUHs, to 1.7 million diodes as well as the beginning of volume production of 240mW (milliwatts) blue-violet laser diodes in November of 2007. This will greatly increase the supply of blue-laser PUHs at lower prices, the sources indicated, noting the reduction of costs could reach US$100.

Besides a potential drop in the production cost of the PS3, the production cost of the Xbox 360 Elite has dropped to US$323.30 based on latest estimates by research firm iSuppli.

Taiwan-based makers of game consoles and components agree that it can be $100 cost reduction.
http://www.digitimes.com/systems/a20070507PD200.html

A couple of issues with the accuracy of the report.
First the reporters had so little knowledge that they confused the 360 Elite with 360 Premium. The retail price for elite is not $399 nor does it have that low of a BOM.

Someone correct me if I am wrong but Sony Shiroishi Semiconductor isn't a console manufacturer. Sony outsourced that. Shiroishi Semiconductor is a semiconductor company.

Third issue is that the article lists price of the PS3 BD drive @ $125 and the 360 DVD drvie at $19. Those seem look accurate numbers. If reducing the diode instantly cut $100 off the price then a BD drive now costs $25 vs $19 for an DVD drive. Highly unlikley. It took DVD about 7-8 years to come down to the <$30 price range. Doubtful the BD with it's higher complexity will get there in 6 months. The optical system in PS3 (as w/ BD in general) is expensive because it breaks from the proven 0.65NA lens used in all optical formats to date. Having a higher NA increases cost and adding backwards compatibility adds even more cost. The diode is only a small part of the optical system.

No doubt the reduced diode cost does lower cost but the diode is one tiny part of the optical assembly. Even if a BD diode was $0 a BD drive will be more expensive than a HD DVD drive and both are substantially more expensive than a DVD drive.

Just another example of poor reporting. I have no doubt the PS3 will have it's cost cut by $100 this year (likely more) as it generates economies of scale, removal of PS2 components, and going to 65nm of CPU/GPU. Will the majority of the cost savings come from reducing one component in price? No.

A couple of issues with the accuracy of the report.
First the reporters had so little knowledge that they confused the 360 Elite with 360 Premium. The retail price for elite is not $399 nor does it have that low of a BOM.

Someone correct me if I am wrong but Sony Shiroishi Semiconductor isn't a console manufacturer. Sony outsourced that. Shiroishi Semiconductor is a semiconductor company.

Third issue is that the article lists price of the PS3 BD drive @ $125 and the 360 DVD drvie at $19. Those seem look accurate numbers. If reducing the diode instantly cut $100 off the price then a BD drive now costs $25 vs $19 for an DVD drive. Highly unlikley. It took DVD about 7-8 years to come down to the <$30 price range. Doubtful the BD with it's higher complexity will get there in 6 months. The optical system in PS3 (as w/ BD in general) is expensive because it breaks from the proven 0.65NA lens used in all optical formats to date. Having a higher NA increases cost and adding backwards compatibility adds even more cost. The diode is only a small part of the optical system.

No doubt the reduced diode cost does lower cost but the diode is one tiny part of the optical assembly. Even if a BD diode was $0 a BD drive will be more expensive than a HD DVD drive and both are substantially more expensive than a DVD drive.

Just another example of poor reporting. I have no doubt the PS3 will have it's cost cut by $100 this year (likely more) as it generates economies of scale, removal of PS2 components, and going to 65nm of CPU/GPU. Will the majority of the cost savings come from reducing one component in price? No.You are missing major points in the article. The 360 part is just an addendum for the article, and Sony Shiroishi Semiconductor manufactures blue-lasor diodes (which is a semiconductor device). The experts at game console manufacturers mentioned in the article as the source are not Sony Shiroishi Semiconductor but Taiwanese insiders at foundries and assembly plants in Taiwan such as TSMC or ASUS who does Xbox 360 and PS3.