Got this over at the HighdefDigest forums.....



Here's your proof about the bully tactics of the BDA, I'm sure many will try to refute this but it's right from the former president of Warner.




The high definition disc format war was avoidable, former Warner president claims

The former president of Warner Home Video, Warren Lieberfarb, believes that the current war between Blu-ray and HD DVD could have been avoided if the two sides had been more forthcoming in sharing information and co-operation.

He even goes so far to say that the Blu-ray consortium was being run like a cartel, for the purpose of forcing a de facto standard on other manufacturers.

Speaking to Variety, he said that his hope was that all parties involved in next-generation DVDs had collaborated through the DVD Forum, created in 1995 to foster discussions among studios and electronics makers.



http://www.hdtvuk.tv/2007/04/the_high_defini.html

Original Variety article here (http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117963616.html?categoryid=20&cs=1).

Since 2002, Lieberfarb has been a consultant to Microsoft and Toshiba. ;)

Original Variety article here (http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117963616.html?categoryid=20&cs=1).

Since 2002, Lieberfarb has been a consultant to Microsoft and Toshiba. ;)

Didn't know that....hmmmm. Even still, I agree that the war could have been avoided. Too much potential money involved for either side to meet halfway.

The longer this goes on though the more I feel these two formats are going to end up like DVD-A and SACD. I never got into those audio formats but I knew they were duking it out. Same thing going on here. Sooner or later this war is going to end in a weak fizzle.

And the DVD Forum are angels?

Here's your proof about the bully tactics of the BDA,

What bully tatics? All he says is they're like a cartel, well you can say that of the DVD forum or the HD DVD PG etc.

It is a cartel. Actually that is probably the best word to describe it.

With all those BRD dealers on the street no wonder kids are hooked. :D

Since 2002, Lieberfarb has been a consultant to Microsoft and Toshiba. ;)

Which is all that needs be said.

Original Variety article here (http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117963616.html?categoryid=20&cs=1).

Since 2002, Lieberfarb has been a consultant to Microsoft and Toshiba.

And I guess CED which reported how Panny brutalized LG for going nuetral and threatened them as having breached their contract is also consulting for MS and Tosh :rolleyes:

One hopes to, one day, be blackened enough to criticize the kettle.

Here's your proof about the bully tactics of the BDA

I may agree or disagree with Lieberfarb's statement, but it isn't "proof" of anything.

And I guess CED which reported how Panny brutalized LG for going nuetral and threatened them as having breached their contract is also consulting for MS and Tosh :rolleyes:

Nataraj,

I've not read that. Do you have a link or an AVS post you can point me to?

Thanks!

And I guess CED which reported how Panny brutalized LG for going nuetral and threatened them as having breached their contract is also consulting for MS and Tosh :rolleyes:

Oooh, corporate arm-twisting. Unconceivable! :rolleyes:

And you notice I didn't question the idea of BDA as a cartel. But I won't go on Lieberfarb's judgment for that. He has a grudge, and a vested interest.

And I guess CED which reported how Panny brutalized LG for going nuetral and threatened them as having breached their contract is also consulting for MS and Tosh :rolleyes:
:rolleyes:

Rather ask when you don't understand something - he meant cartel in terms of negotiating style which was widely reported, the BDA's no compromise stance. Toshiba said this zillion times, they were ready to give in but Sony did not want to bend anywhere, they simply said Toshiba should conform to their standards - that's the safest way to ruin any negotiations for sure. In fact we have seen this already WRT DVD licensing (http://www.eetimes.com/story/eezine/OEG19990618S0008), a decade ago...
Add Sony's well-known backyard bully-styled market tactics and well-known arrogance to it and it's not hard to imagine what was the sotry about, once again: most likely Sony/BDA didn't really want to share the income from royalties, they wanted revenge for the DVD story because others are making a lot of money (http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB20010109S0013) ever since from DVDs, unlike Sony.

they were ready to give in

...as long as the disc structure was the same as that of SD DVD. :rolleyes:

Thus extending DVD patents life into HD DVD.

Cui bono?

I may agree or disagree with Lieberfarb's statement, but it isn't "proof" of anything.

Those aren't my words....like I said, I took this from the Highdefdigest.com forums....guess I should have linked over there to. But everything after, "I got this at the....are not my words. Hope I cleared that up a bit.

Got this over at the HighdefDigest forums.....



Here's your proof about the bully tactics of the BDA, I'm sure many will try to refute this but it's right from the former president of Warner.



So you've never said anything bad about your Ex's or former employer? ;)

All standards bodies are cartels. Standards Bodies exist to push and promote one standard, to do that, all other standards in direct competition have to die off. ASCII did not become a standard by allowing multiple binary representations of standard characters.

DVD forum is also a standards body, and hence was the previous cartel. It sounds like the old cartel didn't like the new cartel and so we have this thing. Lieberfarb is credited with 'inventing' (conceptually) the DVD disk, and would be expected to be attached to it.

Other than a name, the BD and HD DVD are both natural evolutions of the DVD format, with BD having higher data density higher transfer rate and also higher manufacturing startup costs. HD DVD manufacturing does not have the same startup costs as DVD, though it is marginally lower than BD (in the scheme of how these factories measure cost).

In time, BD will cost the same as DVD to manufacture --- we have a large body of historical records of material science and manufacturing as a guide.

Some involuntary comedy there:

[Lieberfarb] says that if the studios had been less focused on creating bulletproof copy-protection and more fixated on getting the discs into the market more quickly, the work being done on HD DVD within the DVD Forum would've proceeded more quickly.

So it follows that he wanted HD DVD to launch in 2005 even if it meant not having AACS. :eek:

(Yeah, I know some of you will be thinking, 'As if AACS has proven to be any stronger than CSS.' :D)

Original Variety article here (http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117963616.html?categoryid=20&cs=1).

Since 2002, Lieberfarb has been a consultant to Microsoft and Toshiba. ;)

Gee, what a shocker :eek:

Oooh, corporate arm-twisting. Unconceivable! :rolleyes:The Princess Bride.
Vizzini: "Inconceivable."

Inigo Montoya: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means, what you think it means. "

Before you guys start trashing Lieberfarb, you might want to consider that without him we would not have had DVD in 1997 and probably not have Hi-Def discs right now.

He was the driving force behind DVD and getting all sides to agree on the standard.

Before you start casting aspersions on people and guilt-by-employment, try to leave your petty bias at the door for a couple of seconds and consider that someone with his vast experience in the industry might just know more about it than any of you do.

Before you guys start trashing Lieberfarb, you might want to consider that without him we would not have had DVD in 1997 and probably not have Hi-Def discs right now.

He was the driving force behind DVD and getting all sides to agree on the standard.

Before you start casting aspersions on people and guilt-by-employment, try to leave your petty bias at the door for a couple of seconds and consider that someone with his vast experience in the industry might just know more about it than any of you do.

And Isaac Newton, after largely creating classical mechanics, then dabbled in alchemy during his late life. Are we to approve of that line of research just because he previously devised the laws of motion?

Original Variety article here (http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117963616.html?categoryid=20&cs=1).

Since 2002, Lieberfarb has been a consultant to Microsoft and Toshiba. ;)

According to Penton-Man, Warren Lieberfarb is no longer consuling with MSFT. But I would assume that someone of his stature would not be saying stuff just because MSFT or Toshiba asked him to say it. But who knows....

All standards bodies are cartels. Standards Bodies exist to push and promote one standard, to do that, all other standards in direct competition have to die off. ASCII did not become a standard by allowing multiple binary representations of standard characters.

DVD forum is also a standards body, and hence was the previous cartel. It sounds like the old cartel didn't like the new cartel and so we have this thing. Lieberfarb is credited with 'inventing' (conceptually) the DVD disk, and would be expected to be attached to it.

Other than a name, the BD and HD DVD are both natural evolutions of the DVD format, with BD having higher data density higher transfer rate and also higher manufacturing startup costs. HD DVD manufacturing does not have the same startup costs as DVD, though it is marginally lower than BD (in the scheme of how these factories measure cost).

In time, BD will cost the same as DVD to manufacture --- we have a large body of historical records of material science and manufacturing as a guide.


It depends on how the licensing for the standard works.

And the DVD Forum are angels?
You know Sony sits on the steering committee of the DVD Forum?


Many people know who Lieberfarb is, if you don't, just Wiki him, you'll get a feel for his contributions to home entertainment. I wouldn't take his word for the gospel, but I think his immersion in the industry over the last 10 years puts him in a better position to evaluate than us laymen.

Anyone that thinks Sony does not strong arm their backers is blind to reality, heck, I'd imagine even Toshiba throws a little weight in the HD DVD setting, but Sony is undeniably the bully of the industry.

And Isaac Newton, after largely creating classical mechanics, then dabbled in alchemy during his late life. Are we to approve of that line of research just because he previously devised the laws of motion?

What Lieberfarb has said has nothing to do with his technical understanding of either format (so the alchemy example does not work here). He is expressing his political views. He can probably work with anyone he wants to. AFAIK - WB has a close working relationship with Toshiba. It's a historical relationship and one reason why many expected them to be HD DVD exclusive.

...as long as the disc structure was the same as that of SD DVD. :rolleyes:

Thus extending DVD patents life into HD DVD.


... while provinding income for the other side by agreeing upon some of their patents, right.

You know, as any normal negotiations goes (except if Sony is involved and is not desperate).



Cui bono?


Ummm both sides?
You know, as any normal negotiations goes (except if Sony is involved and is not desperate).

...as long as the disc structure was the same as that of SD DVD. :rolleyes:

Thus extending DVD patents life into HD DVD.

Cui bono?

And the problem with that is.....

Rather ask when you don't understand something.

Rather pretend you know that I don't know :rolleyes:

HD DVD manufacturing does not have the same startup costs as DVD, though it is marginally lower than BD (in the scheme of how these factories measure cost).


This is simply not true, period.


In time, BD will cost the same as DVD to manufacture --- we have a large body of historical records of material science and manufacturing as a guide.

Baseless speculation - let's just stick to the facts, shall we?

Rather pretend you know that I don't know :rolleyes:

So in other words you admit you're clueless or...? :p

And the DVD Forum are angels?

If you're not the devil, does not make you an angel. It's not a boolean thing :eek:

So in other words you admit you're clueless...?


it's not a boolean thing... :rolleyes:

And the problem with that is.....

... that Sony wanted revenge, pure and simple, kill the DVD and get all the incomes.

it's not a boolean thing... :rolleyes:

FYI I'm just asking...

And you notice I didn't question the idea of BDA as a cartel. But I won't go on Lieberfarb's judgment for that. He has a grudge, and a vested interest.

If you agree its a cartel how does it matter who says it ? Anyway what you tried was classic ad-hominem.

I've not read that. Do you have a link or an AVS post you can point me to?

Subscribe to CED and you can read all about it !

... that Sony wanted revenge, pure and simple, kill the DVD and get all the incomes.


That I agree. :D

However, Sony is starting to experience turbulance in their game-plan now. We'll see how they manage to hold down costs and negotiate deals to keep their exclusive deals going. Disney, Fox, Lions Gate....wow, so many pounds of flesh. I see the hardware guys jumping off already, the studios are probably making more by just staying exclusive for now. In other words, the value of their subsidy from Sony may be more than how much they would make by being neutral. As the market grows, the cost of the subsidy goes up as well....

The respective business models must play out.....a cartel works when you control a monopoly product. With HD DVD, a BD cartel is ineffective since folks can switch to the alternative. So for Sony it must be like running a 'bribe' operation now in order to run a cartel later.

Subscribe to CED and you can read all about it !

I'd love to, but acronyms do not help me in my quest. What's CED and what issue was the article in?

Some involuntary comedy there:

:
[Lieberfarb] says that if the studios had been less focused on creating bulletproof copy-protection and more fixated on getting the discs into the market more quickly, the work being done on HD DVD within the DVD Forum would've proceeded more quickly....
Wow, a (former) studio/content provider head actually thought about 'giving up' DRM and getting products to the market sooner ?! Now that's common sense to me, compared with the madness of some stuios trying to add more DRM to DVD, even though that ship had sailed a lot time ago ;) I don't know what's so comic about this sensible approach, too bad Hollywood wouldn't go for it. Only small independents may follow this approach, like Chronos having no ACSS.

Reading many posts here at AVS often makes wonder how many really consider them first as consumers (well, project Hydra members excluded) ;)

Gee, what a shocker :eek:

That was my reaction. :D His obvious sympathies are with the HDDVD favoring companies (including Warner, but for the controlling influence of their parent corp).

And the problem with that is.....

I don't really care where the profits go... but given the mass defection of the majority of DVD Forum to BDA, it certainly seems absurdly apparent that many companies were not happy with that arrangement.

I could believe the "cartel", but seems to be the strangest one I've ever seen.

Okay, I get the idea that they were trying to control the price drops - do it over a longer period of time to maximize the revenue (ala VCRs & DVD)............but how the heck did Sony sell the bill of goods?

We're going to sell a $600 gaming system with a player while you sell $1,000 stand alones

How did they get the other members to agree to this horse ....? If I was running one of the other companies I'd have told you to take a flying leap.

Quite a few business cartels, nothing unusual.

watching the sony haters in action brings a warm glow to my heart. bless you boys posting your hate for a faceless corporation on an internet message board. truely your lives now have meaning.

as to the comments of mr dvd, who's to say if he was in on the negotiations or is motivated by a love for his baby, dvd. not that any of it matters, since both the dvd forum and the bda are clearly cartels.

incidentally isaac newton wrote more on the subject of the temple of solomon than he did on the fundamental laws of nature. that amuses me for some reason.

Anyway what you tried was classic ad-hominem.

and the argument that Lieberfard's awesome credentials lend special credence to his POV in this circumstance fall into a similar logical fallacy: appeal to authority.

There's no hyphen in ad hominem, BTW.

I don't really care where the profits go...

but given the mass defection of the majority of DVD Forum to BDA, it certainly seems absurdly apparent that many companies were not happy with that arrangement.

You're quite confused.
There wasn't any "defection", they are still members of the DVD Forum including Sony: http://dvdforum.org/about-memberlist.htm

watching the sony haters in action brings a warm glow to my heart. bless you boys posting your hate for a faceless corporation on an internet message board. truely your lives now have meaning.


I'd say it's time to put down that crackpipe...

incidentally isaac newton wrote more on the subject of the temple of solomon than he did on the fundamental laws of nature. that amuses me for some reason.

Seriously, put it down, man. :D

You're quite confused.
There wasn't any "defection", they are still members of the DVD Forum including Sony: http://dvdforum.org/about-memberlist.htm

It's called context (regarding the High Definition optical formats). Kthxbye. :)

And Isaac Newton, after largely creating classical mechanics, then dabbled in alchemy during his late life. Are we to approve of that line of research just because he previously devised the laws of motion?

Yes, why not?

He dabbled in alchemy all his life. It influenced everything else he did and his life philosophy. So? What's that got to do with HD movies?

...
I don't really care where the profits go... but given the mass defection of the majority of DVD Forum to BDA, it certainly seems absurdly apparent that many companies were not happy with that arrangement.
I have always been curious about what really happened. Given the clout of BR companies, why couldn't they push BD through as the standard ? I asked Talk, he said Toshiba was chairing the committee and used procedural maneuvers to its advantage. Anyone knows more about this stuff ? It should make a fascinating read.

It's human nature to assign blames, I just see it as pointless. Each company does what they think would make them most money, there is no simple right or wrong way to do it. Consumers will be the judge.

It's called context (regarding the High Definition optical formats). Kthxbye. :)

You meant "wrong wording", right? ;)

Seriously, put it down, man. :D
if you're claiming he didn't devote more of his life to the study of the temple of solomon than the laws he is famous for then you are missinformed. as to it's relevance to this particular discussion it simply highlights the notion that a man can be famous for something while having a whole other (perhaps questionable) life that few are apparently aware of.

I have always been curious about what really happened. Given the clout of BR companies, why couldn't they push BD through as the standard ? I asked Talk, he said Toshiba was chairing the committee and used procedural maneuvers to its advantage. Anyone knows more about this stuff ? It should make a fascinating read.

It's human nature to assign blames, I just see it as pointless. Each company does what they think would make them most money, there is no simple right or wrong way to do it. Consumers will be the judge.

Absolutely. However we have a well-documented history of Sony and its arrogant, bully-like behavior, its market-grabbing monopolistic attempts which surely didn't end when these next-gen DVD negotiations started.

The respective business models must play out.....a cartel works when you control a monopoly product. With HD DVD, a BD cartel is ineffective since folks can switch to the alternative. So for Sony it must be like running a 'bribe' operation now in order to run a cartel later.

I would disagree on this point. Where shall I go to get Spiderman on HD-DVD? This is something I never liked about Sony's position in all this... They control too many pieces of the puzzle on the Blu-ray side.

Absolutely. However we have a well-documented history of Sony and its arrogant, bully-like behavior, its market-grabbing monopolistic attempts which surely didn't end when these next-gen DVD negotiations started.
I too dislike Sony's approach, that's why I am HD DVD only now even though I do like some BR exclusive movies :( For that matter, MS is behaving similarly (at least in OS area), they really did a good job with VC1, I have to admit that.

And the problem with that is.....

Simple really, it is only fair for Toshiba to give in, Sony and Philips gave in last time.

When the update to CD came around (DVD) Sony and Phillips had a competitor, but negotiated with Toshiba and Warner and they lost out on billions in revenue and profit because they compromised their physical structure.

Now we have the same situation, but this time round Sony and Philips have a lot more friends (the BDA) who sided with them and called for the use of BD's physical structure as it allowed for future expansion (quad layer etc...) and was basically more future-proof. So when it came down to it, Toshiba didn't give in like Sony did last time and now we have a format war.

So tell me, who is the guilty party amongst all of them?

When the DVD standards were being negotiated, Toshiba and Warner didn't even want to talk about negotiating disc structure with Sony. Sony relented and lost plenty of royalties as a result. When negotiations for combining HD DVD and blu-ray were taking place, once again Toshiba wanted to get Sony to change the disc structure to their format(once again giving Toshiba millions and millions in royalties) Sony said no this time around.

If each one of us was to be honest with ourselves, we probably would have done the same thing as Sony did, especially if the previous negotiation result in your personal loss of potential income.

All of these companies are looking for potential income streams. Toshiba is doing it, Sony is doing it, Microsoft is doing and the beat goes on. To make Sony more evil than say Toshiba or Microsoft completely dismisses the fact all of these companies have had issues with strong arming their competition. Toshiba did it to Sony with the DVD, Microsoft did it with Netscape and Real, and now Sony did it back to Toshiba.

Welcome to the cut throat world of the mega-corporation.

I'm so looking forward to a Barbarians at the Gate-like expose' of the behind-the-scenes stories that led to this format war, the decision to use videogame consoles (specifically XBox 360 and PlayStation 3) as weapons in the optical disk war, etc. The HBO made-for-TV movie would be great too, especially if they get Ken Watanabe to play Ken Kutagari in full Letters from Iwo Jima military regalia. Ohh the laughs! :p

...Toshiba did it to Sony with the DVD, Microsoft did it with Netscape and Real, and now Sony did it back to Toshiba...
and Sony will likely still come out on the losing end :) We are witnessing history repeating itself, so sit back and enjoy the show (at least for me as someone with no real stakes involved).

and Sony will likely still come out on the losing end :) We are witnessing history repeating itself, so sit back and enjoy the show (at least for me as someone with no real stakes involved).

Well it appears that MS would like Sony and Toshiba to lose. IMO that would be a shame as I prefer the MUCH higher quality blu-ray compared to their digital distribution that MS offers.

It boils down to choosing a company you like and want to win. I vote for Toshyota. They make nice CHEAP cars.

They are on the "winner take all" side, but we are on the losing side - DRM. After Sony's root kit, they will not get my vote.

After Sony's root kit, they will not get my vote.

So the Microsoft's " Windows Genuine Advantage" program is fine with you?

Welcome to the cut throat world of the mega-corporation.

Which is why I'm not going to make a plaster saint out of any corporation.

I do know however who has screwed me over at the consumer level on more than one occasion by not standing behind their product when it malfunctioned, and that's been Sony.

I feel like an idiot for rewarding them for it unless they were the only game in town, and as it turns out they are not.

So the Microsoft's " Windows Genuine Advantage" program is fine with you?
What does that have to do with root-kits?

"One other reason for the mutual distrust: Given Microsoft's involvement with HD DVD, studios had concerns about the tech company dominating the so-called "digital living room," according to one studio homevid exec"

Many times in the past I've stated that is one of the biggest fears of Sony and others. Glad to see some exec(s) feel that way :) However the work MS has done with VC-1 and HDi is simply great so there is a lot of good substance there.

The above is why I believe BD-J was picked over HDi.

"One other reason for the mutual distrust: Given Microsoft's involvement with HD DVD, studios had concerns about the tech company dominating the so-called "digital living room," according to one studio homevid exec"

Many times in the past I've stated that is one of the biggest fears of Sony and others. Glad to see some exec(s) feel that way :) However the work MS has done with VC-1 and HDi is simply great so there is a lot of good substance there.

The above is why I believe BD-J was picked over HDi.


I'm always surprised when this gets mentioned. Doesn't Sony with its end-to-end solution with Conoles, TVs, Receivers, DVD players etc have a much better chance at "dominating" ?

In fact in the entertainment space Sony can do so much more with their control of Studios, Music Labels, Commercial hardware Equipment for movie making etc.

I'm always surprised when this gets mentioned. Doesn't Sony with its end-to-end solution with Conoles, TVs, Receivers, DVD players etc have a much better chance at "dominating" ?

In fact in the entertainment space Sony can do so much more with their control of Studios, Music Labels, Commercial hardware Equipment for movie making etc.

MS is a software company. They want software control. Having HDi AND VC-1 dominate the next gen format, which btw, would be BR if MS had gone neutral as I don't believe Toshiba and Universal are strong enough without MS to fight this out.

Welcome to the cut throat world of the mega-corporation.
So why would Disney and Fox allow Sony to vertically (and horizontally - PS3)integrate when they are a competing studio? Cutting their own throat?

MS is a software company. They want software control. Having HDi AND VC-1 dominate the next gen format, which btw, would be BR if MS had gone neutral as I don't believe Toshiba and Universal are strong enough without MS to fight this out.

Actually VC1 is only one of three codecs in both BD and HD. That makes it impossible for it to dominate the formet unless it continue to be so good as it actually is. The companys decide what codec they want to use not the DVD forum nor BDA (hopefully)

Microsoft cant take over the world with HDi and VC1, but they sure have given us a great codec.

So the Microsoft's " Windows Genuine Advantage" program is fine with you?
I was anti Sony starting when they wiped out US TV manufactures ~40 years ago. Anti MS for >20yrs (I'm a software engineer.)

I'm currently more anti Sony than MS. Tosh put HQV in their player, so I now like them.

I'm always surprised when this gets mentioned. Doesn't Sony with its end-to-end solution with Conoles, TVs, Receivers, DVD players etc have a much better chance at "dominating" ?

In fact in the entertainment space Sony can do so much more with their control of Studios, Music Labels, Commercial hardware Equipment for movie making etc.
You'd think, but Sony's end-to-end solution seems to have hindered it in some ways.

For example, I blame this as one of the reasons they couldn't compete against the iPod.

Apple simply made an MP3 player, that also played AAC tracks that you could eventually download from the iTunes store.

Sony made a miniDisc player that couldn't play MP3 at all, probably because they were scared of MP3s, and because they wanted to sell pre-recorded ATRAC miniDiscs.

The other reason though is that Sony software almost always sucks. SonyConnect... WTF?

Yes Sony has its problem with it has its hands in to many areas.

Lacking progressive support in prosumer cams, to protect high end cams
Lacking support in Sony Vegas for DVCPROHD to protects its prosumer cams
Lacking support of progressive scan in DVD players, to protect interlace format???
Lacking support MP3 in DVD players to protect its music industry

etc

Not talking about all the Bad PR this is.

I'm always surprised when this gets mentioned.

It's usually mentioned by those who who have an eye on some of Microsoft's reputed tactics in the web browser and Office software wars. Often unfairly IMO, but that's neither here nor there.

What does that have to do with root-kits?
Report to the mothership software, not terribly far afield from the rootkit software. It validates your copys of windows.

Report to the mothership software, not terribly far afield from the rootkit software. It validates your copys of windows.

I think the point he wanted to get across is that WGA is nothing to worry about unless you pirated Windows.

WGA is done with your consent, while root-kits are not.

I think the point he wanted to get across is that WGA is nothing to worry about unless you pirated Windows.

WGA is done with your consent, while root-kits are not.
Yeah but they've got your arm twisted :D Not a real fan of either................just my .02

It's usually mentioned by those who who have an eye on some of Microsoft's reputed tactics in the web browser and Office software wars. Often unfairly IMO, but that's neither here nor there.


Actually it's a compliment to MS. Their ability to not only create good software but have the business tactics to get it widespread pays off for them. One is just a critical as the other.

Eh, such people tend to inapproiately use words like anti-trust and monopoly, as well as the legal decisions made in reference to such...

It's usually mentioned by those who who have an eye on some of Microsoft's reputed tactics in the web browser and Office software wars.

I understand that. But in this space Sony has a lot more clout than MS. Infact I'd say they are more than MS + Tosh + Universal put together.

Funny people think MS can achieve world domination with HDi and VC1 :D

MS is a software company. They want software control. Having HDi AND VC-1 dominate the next gen format, which btw, would be BR if MS had gone neutral as I don't believe Toshiba and Universal are strong enough without MS to fight this out.

Plus the Chinese Broadcom sets will run CE. MS is perfectly happy with the situation I would think, and are working hard to help HDDVD succeed.

I hesitate to note that Microsoft has more lawsuits and legal actions for monopolistic practices than all members of the BDA combined, as far as I know. I am not bashing Microsoft per se here, just trying to put the matter into some perspective and to note that we are dealing with very large companies here. The Microsoft pot should not call the Sony kettle black.

It should also be noted that what most of us have always asked for is for all CE companies and studios to get together on a single format. The BDA ALMOST achieved this--they had nearly everyone on board in the fall of 2005.

It is not an inaccurate reading of history to say that only three companies--Toshiba, Microsoft, and Universal--stood against the rest and insisted on opposing Blu-ray. In the fall of 2005, most independent observers thought that HD DVD should give in to Blu-ray to avoid the format war.

Why does Mr. Lieberfarb believe that the large group of companies that wanted Blu-ray should give in to the few that wanted HD DVD? Since he was a consultant for Toshiba and Microsoft during this period, could it be that he simply wanted his employers to win? This is an appropriate stance as an employee, but it hardly rises to the level of moral indigation that he presents in this article.

Today, Universal is doing the best job of keeping the format war going, thereby keeping their own revenues about significantly less than what they could be. I estimate that nextgen penetration would grow by a factor of 10 within a few months of the end of the format war.

What does Mr. Lieberfarb now advocate? Has he said? Does he think that HD DVD should just keep going? What is his end-game scenario?

I think the point he wanted to get across is that WGA is nothing to worry about unless you pirated Windows.

WGA is done with your consent, while root-kits are not.
doesn't windows genuine advantage also send information about your computer back to the ms site, or was that only on an earlier version?

We're going to sell a $600 gaming system with a player while you sell $1,000 stand alones

How did they get the other members to agree to this horse ....?

Simple realy - agree to pull out of other markets. Do you realy believe Sony left the plasma market for any other reason that to garner Blu-Ray support from Pioneer, Panasonic, and Samsung?

Never pay for contrast ratio - read why all those crazy high contrast numbers are meaningless... Then I'm glad I got a JVC HD1 with a true 15,000 to 1 CR, than some other unit with "dynamic" CR, which is really just a low CR moved around to suit different pics! :)

Whoops - back on topic, now:

I think the idea of a "cartel" is that cartels are defined by "bully tactics" and "control" over resources, etc.

The idea that by acting together, they can control the markets, pricing, availability, etc.

This almost matches the BDA to a "T". Common sense would have dictated that the format that had more owner benefits in the players, was hald the price, and (by the way) was actually *finished* being designed, would have been the the obvious choice for consumers.

Yet - in moves not unlike the traditional view of a cartel, the BDA grouped together manufacturers who "apparently" (according to the evidence surfacing from the DVD forum spat between LG and Panny) agreed only to make BD players - AND the BDA worked to round up studios, who ALSO agreed to support only BD.

It's a classic cartel approach to the free market - and one that can often hurt consumer interests.

Methinks there's a bigger story brewing here...

watching the sony haters...
A standard BD reaction, but rather shallow.

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, perhaps a little more attention is due...

both the dvd forum and the bda are clearly cartels. Oh wait, you DO agree :eek: :p

BUT, there's that little matter of we haven't seen the DVD forum trying to run around the place over the last 10 years telling the studios they shouldn't publich on any other format, making manufacturers NOT make any other machines...

Wiki:
A cartel is a group of formally independent producers whose goal is to increase their collective profits by means of price fixing, limiting supply, or other restrictive practices. Cartels typically control selling prices, but some are organized to control the prices of purchased inputs. Cartels are prohibited by antitrust laws in most countries; however, they continue to exist nationally and internationally, openly and secretly, formally and informally. Note that a single entity that holds a monopoly by this definition cannot be a cartel, though it may be guilty of abusing said monopoly in other ways. Cartels usually occur in oligopolies, where there are a small number of sellers and usually involve homogeneous products. Bid rigging is a special type of cartel.

I have always been curious about what really happened. Given the clout of BR companies, why couldn't they push BD through as the standard ? I asked Talk, he said Toshiba was chairing the committee and used procedural maneuvers to its advantage. Anyone knows more about this stuff ? It should make a fascinating read.

What happened ironicaly is that many people were afraid of the advanced codecs that everyone loves today.

BD started out in 2003 as a recordable only cartridge format. It was 23GB per disc SL/SS. Sony didn't randomly choose that number. 23GB was enough capacity to record 2 hours of OTA HD in it's native mpeg2 stream. Sony and 8 other companies formed the Bluray Group to develop BD as a recordable format. The irony is that because they couldn't perfect a DL disc at the time they spend serious $$$$ on developing a new optical format (i.e 0.1mm top layer, larger Numerical Aperature). The format is now known as the essentially dead Blu-ray Disc Rewritable (RE) Format Version 1.

Around the same time Toshiba & NEC were developing a stamped only format known as AOD. They decided to keep the optical physical structure the same as DVD. A DVD uses same focal length as a CD it simply changes the wavelength from IR to Red. AOD used same proven technology and simply moved from a red diode to blue diode. Despite what seem people still believe AOD(now HD DVD) and BD use the exact same 405nm diode.

In middle of 2003 Toshiba presented AOD to DVD Forum to be named HD DVD. The BD Group saw the formation of HD media as a way to grow BD beyond a record only format. Both sides had a problem though.

AOD didn't have enough space. A DVD9 hold 9.4GB and 1080p has 6.75 the information of 480p so mpeg2 on HDTV would need about 63GB. Now the truth is most DVD9 are not full, extras can be encoded at lower bitrate and audio didn't need a 6.75X improvement however mpeg2 would require about 50-55GB. That is Toshiba proposed changing the codec from mpeg2 to either mjpeg, H.264 or VC-1.

BD had a different problem. It was designed from ground up as a total break from DVD. The 0.1mm top layer required for the larger NA was causing huge problems in trying to convert it to a stamped format and make it dual layered. However if BD could be converted to BD-ROM then it would allow movies to be kept on mpeg2. Despite all the joy over AVC and VC-1 today this was and major advantage for BD.

The DVD Forum arranged some encoding tests for mjpeg, H.264 and VC-1. The initial results were horrible. The results didn't do anything to alleviate the huge concerns the movie industry had for switching from mpeg2. Had it not been for Microsoft AOD would have died. Microsoft was able in a tremendously short time improve the VC-1 codec that AOD looked like it could work.

Sony and the BD group at the time continued to bash these alternate over compressed codecs arguing that they would take years to mature. mpeg2 encoders had nearly a decade of improvement and to throw it away for some unproven tech was radical and dangerous.

Toshiba argued (correct) that software will improve faster than hardware. Hardware in this case refers to the physical format, and related mechanical/optical development. Toshiba argued that the encoders & decoders along with the silicon to power them would continue to increase at a geometric rate while mechanical improvements to disc chemistry, hard coat improvements, optical pickups, physical duplication would improve much slower.

The basic argument between the two formats came down to AOD w/ unproven software and proven optical format or BD with proven mpeg2 and unproven optical format. Software vs Hardware.

Toshiba was able to show high yields even in 2003 due to the similarities to DVD. Simply put BD was ready yet. Sony and backers argued that more time should be devoted to allow BD to develop. In 2003 (and in 2006 some would argue) BD had potential but not results. Toshiba called for a vote that AOD become HD DVD to replace DVD. The improving results from VC-1 and AVC along with duplication test results that were higher than expected results from a prototype technology convinced some but not enough members of the steering committe. The big hold outs were CE companies. They saw profit margins go from hundreds of $$ to virtually nothing on DVD players. The HD DVD was simply a DVD player with blue diode and moderately faster decoding hardware. There was little to guarantee that cheap chinese products wouldn't make HD DVD commodity items in a few years.

The results in DVD Forum is that abstains count against. For example if vote was 3 for, 2 against, and 2 abstain the vote would fail. Toshiba put AOD up to a vote twice and lost due to high number of abstains. Most companies didn't want to vote against HD DVD but they also felt BD had promise given a little more time. It was a nice way of voting down HD DVD without pissing Toshiba off. Toshiba as chairman of DVD Forum changed the rules governing voting. Abstains would no longer count for or against a vote. The vote was brought up a third time in November 2003. While a large % of members abstained the vote passed because the number of for was greater than negative.

In early 2004 the BD group included many of the disaffected CE members and changed the name to BDA. They began to recruit the studios. HD DVD was going to launch in late 2005. If it had done that likely BD would have died long before it could launch but Toshiba ran into a problem they couldn't control. The diodes that had been produced in labs for couple years already were proving virtually impossible to produce commercially in the quality, quantity, and price necessary for CE devices. Toshiba had to push launch back twice. Combined with little CE support (due to fear on margins), low HDTV adoption rates in US, and problems with AACS ratification the idea of a quick transfer from DVD to HD DVD began to look more and more slim. The BDA machine was in full effect courting the studios w/ features and security to weaken HD DVD. When Fox announced BD only support and Sony announced the BD would be a mandatory component in PS3 Toshiba lost the PR battle before it could ship it's first player.

The battle had a heavy price for BD though also. Sony added after numerous refusals to include the new codecs for video & audio. Sony had argued BD had sufficient capacity to have high quality mpeg2 and PCM. Keeping the player simple would compensate for the complicated optics and allow players to market faster. For what it is worth I think Sony was right. If BD had launched same day as HD DVD as mpeg/pcm only with BD50 and flawless PQ/AQ it would have ended the war instantly. BD also added ROM-Mark, BD+, BD-J, BD Live and more resulting in numerous changes to the specs. The result is that BD is a very complicated format and even today many players are not compliant to all of the specs.

Despite the media portrayal of the two sides trying to reach a compromise there never was a chance. BD's major difference with HD DVD is the change in optical design. Take it away and it would have same capacity as HD DVD. Lower capacity would make mpeg2 & LPCM virtually unusable which was a big push by Sony. AOD used many of the same designs as DVD which Toshiba has the lion's share of patents. Take away the similarity to DVD and Toshiba's royalties dry up also.

I understand that. But in this space Sony has a lot more clout than MS.

Nataraj: I think the difference is history. There is over 100 years of A/V history and no one has ever became all powerful. The difference is that entertainment is a fad (or fad filled) what is cool today won't be cool tomorrow. Univrsal was a big important studio a long time ago but if you look at the charts their value is decreasing. MGM was huge, today it is mostly a small library. Look at HW the same thing RCA was considered big and important at some point and today it is considered more or less junk who where the big names in record players? What about radios? What about B&W TVs .....

On the other hand MS has tons of $$$, has taken over many markets that they were not in before (more or less killed all other Oses, then when they decided to go into Office SW they killed WP, Lotus 123, they decided to go into browsers …. Obviously they did not kill every market for others (webTV, Iriq remote control….). Are they all PC related? All that I can think of. But in the end they have proven to be good at taking complete control of markets and so it is hard to assume “not this one”

I think the point he wanted to get across is that WGA is nothing to worry about unless you pirated Windows.

WGA is done with your consent, while root-kits are not.
But from what I read, Sony's disk also asked if you want to install it.

Nataraj: I think the difference is history.

History ? Small companies are now more scared about Google than MS. Where have you been ?

Now what is happening is traditional IT companies are competing with CE. Both are large - and while IT companies are gingerely steeping into the living room - CE companies are flexing their muscle trying to gobble up everything. Sony is all over the place .... they control end-to-end from mavie making to final display.

History ? Small companies are now more scared about Google than MS. Where have you been ?

Is google involved in HDOM

Sony is all over the place .... they control end-to-end from mavie making to final display.

did I dissagree the first time you said that?

I was just trying to give you the most logical reason why CEs, Studios are more worried about MS then Sony.

And Isaac Newton, after largely creating classical mechanics, then dabbled in alchemy during his late life. Are we to approve of that line of research just because he previously devised the laws of motion?
There was Thomas Edison and his support for DC delayed AC pushout unnecessarily. In many ways DC was superior to AC, but it had a problem with distance, an advantage of AC transmission one of the greatest inventor of history could not work around.

Lieberfarb's place in history is already assured, just as Edison's. Noone bats 1000.

Is google involved in HDOM

I was talking about how companies "threat" wane in IT.

did I dissagree the first time you said that?

Yes. For eg ...

The difference is that entertainment is a fad (or fad filled) what is cool today won't be cool tomorrow.

Ofcourse entertainment is not a fad. Its been there for thousands of years ... companies come and go - but not entertainment as such.

I was just trying to give you the most logical reason why CEs, Studios are more worried about MS then Sony.

I already gave the reason. Its all about convergence. CE companies want to get into IT (like Sony wants PS3 to replace a PC) and IT companies (like MS and Apple) are getting into entertainment.

Ofcourse entertainment is not a fad. Its been there for thousands of years ...
obviously that is not what I meant.

companies come and go - but not entertainment as such.
but why? why is today's cool tech no more in the future and why was it not in the past? the companies get associated with an era and like all fads what was cool becomes passé

I already gave the reason. Its all about convergence. CE companies want to get into IT (like Sony wants PS3 to replace a PC) and IT companies (like MS and Apple) are getting into entertainment.

but why be scared of MS and not IBM or Intel or Apple or other IT companies?

doesn't windows genuine advantage also send information about your computer back to the ms site, or was that only on an earlier version?

I don't see what the problem is? They know how much ram you have and how fast your processor is. Point is, WGA isn't installed without your consent and is far from a rootkit, which was on a bunch of Sony/BMG music CDs.

I'm not taking Microsoft's side and I personally think the rootkit was a really crappy and scumbag idea, but Sony wasn't the first and won't be the last company to do something like that.

I'm just saddened with the state of the HD forums here, which have been on a continual spiral downwards due to the massive amount of die-hard fanboys on both sides continually spewing half-truths and insults at each other as if they were defending their own child from ridicule. It's just entertainment, I don't care which format lives or dies eventually, my movies will still be available and will still play.

But from what I read, Sony's disk also asked if you want to install it.

The difference is, after you've installed it:

1.

The Sony rootkit pretends it is part of the OS by installing a service that calls itself "Plug and Play Device Manager".

WGA identifies itself clearly, and does not install any services.

2.

The Sony rootkit intentionally tries to disable your optical drive by returning static when a program tries to read the CD with any program other than the bundled Sony player, regardless of what program you're using or if you are doing legal things or not.

WGA will notify you if it doesn't find a legal license and blocks access to Windows updates and downloads, but WGA will not attempt to otherwise disable or damage your system.

3.

The Sony rootkit allows any other piece of software to use it to hide files and registry keys on your system just by prepending the name with $sys$. Hiding things from the legitimate user of the system is one of the primary purposes of a rootkit.

WGA does not anything of that sort.

4.

And in the ultimate irony, when you asked for the uninstaller for their rootkit, Sony pointed you to a web site that installed an ActiveX control which would allow anyone on the internet to add, remove, and alter any file on your hard drive silently.


---

:rolleyes: So yes, I guess WGA and the Sony rootkit are exactly the same. :rolleyes:

I don't see what the problem is? They know how much ram you have and how fast your processor is. Point is, WGA isn't installed without your consent and is far from a rootkit, which was on a bunch of Sony/BMG music CDs.
what information does sony's software send back to their server? similar stuff or more personal data?

btw, my dad had an interesting experience with his camera capture software the other day. he tried to burn some photos to cd using the windows create cd feature, but nothing happened. so i suggested we open a cd we knew had data on it and look at it to make sure the cd drive was working. the software he'd installed didn't want to let him use any other route to access the data, and having uninstalled and rebooted he found he could magically burn through whatever means he wanted again. pissed us both off a bit, but isn't exactly a stain on whichever company put their name to the software.

I don't see what the problem is? They know how much ram you have and how fast your processor is. Point is, WGA isn't installed without your consent and is far from a rootkit, which was on a bunch of Sony/BMG music CDs.

I'm not taking Microsoft's side and I personally think the rootkit was a really crappy and scumbag idea, but Sony wasn't the first and won't be the last company to do something like that.

I'm just saddened with the state of the HD forums here, which have been on a continual spiral downwards due to the massive amount of die-hard fanboys on both sides continually spewing half-truths and insults at each other as if they were defending their own child from ridicule. It's just entertainment, I don't care which format lives or dies eventually, my movies will still be available and will still play.

No one knows exactly WGA does except Microsoft, and there is no way to get around it either it´s a "feature" you have to live with it for as long as Microsoft owns the Desktop. And it´s obvious it does more than check ram and cpu, it also checks your installed application since it can tell you they are illegal.

Sonys Rootkit is a offspring of the Music Industry´s insane wish to get money everytime we use our ears. And their crazy PR machine that would make certain people in the 1940´s envy. And by all means Sony Music have burned their fingers and got to pay for it as well both in PR and in a real courtroom, unlike Microsoft that just implements whatever they find warranted and forces it on it´s paying customers. Because as usual, the WGA thingy is already cracked and not an issue for those that don´t actually pay for stuff. Congratz!

Btw, why does this totally off topic thread even live so i can make this post?

Gee it seems that every credible individual who has said something positive about HD DVD has been a consultant to Microsoft. :rolleyes:

No one knows exactly WGA does except Microsoft, and there is no way to get around it either it´s a "feature" you have to live with it for as long as Microsoft owns the Desktop. And it´s obvious it does more than check ram and cpu, it also checks your installed application since it can tell you they are illegal.

Sonys Rootkit is a offspring of the Music Industry´s insane wish to get money everytime we use our ears. And their crazy PR machine that would make certain people in the 1940´s envy. And by all means Sony Music have burned their fingers and got to pay for it as well both in PR and in a real courtroom, unlike Microsoft that just implements whatever they find warranted and forces it on it´s paying customers. Because as usual, the WGA thingy is already cracked and not an issue for those that don´t actually pay for stuff. Congratz!

Btw, why does this totally off topic thread even live so i can make this post?

So you're saying that WGA is only a problem if you pirated software?! OH MY what a horrible thing! :rolleyes:

To get back on topic - what's the problem with a cartel? It's not unusual in the business world.

What's all this about corporations "good & evil". They are not charities & their number 1 priority is to maximize the return on investment for stockholders (or it damn well better be anyway).

Okay, let's take Sony. They create a TV show who's primary goal is to market moderately talented people to America & sell records. Evil or good marketing? I might say good marketing, one might say evil because they don't announce it before every show. The show is on their fellow BDA's network. Colusion, cartel, or just plain works out for both parties?

Like what they do or hate what they do - they are ALL going after the #1 priority.

What's all this about corporations "good & evil". They are not charities & their number 1 priority is to maximize the return on investment for stockholders (or it damn well better be anyway).

The naievete of some of you is staggering. There is nothing inherently good or evil in earning profit (IMO). It's about HOW the profit is earned. Lying, cheating, stealing, are not how an ethical society should encourage business.

I see it is impossible to get objective in this discussion. We all have different readings on so many things...

Well... here's mine.

FIRST
No one can compare Msft with Sony.
So far, Msft's business is related to a software and game consoles. Obviously those two elements are a universe by themselves... but that is pretty much what they do. Sony, on the other hand, is a hardware maker whose ventures, in the last 20 years went a lot beyong just that. The are now into hardware, software, entertainment (films and movies) and they even occupy both segments: home and professional. They are everywhere... or so they try to to - literally.
Msft, probably tries to do the same, through a software side.

Any company can make a cheap radio... or a flat screen. That's hardware. But can any company make a operating system? Can anyone venture into Microsoft? Hardly. Msft is in a type of business which is very different from Sony's. And both companies act accordingly as far as I can see.

Now... not being a stockholder in any of these two fine companies, I prefer Msft. But that is my personal position.

The problem with Sony is that the number of fields they are in, sometimes, puts them into positions of contradiction where it is the consumer the one who gets hurt. For example, they refuse to make their DVD players region free because they fear that will hurt their worldwide movie distribution business (even if many consumers love region-free players). Another example: someone in this forum told me once that the problem I was having with my Sony SACD/CD player (not reading CD-Rs properly) was a conscious problem with Sony's CD players to demote me from using CD-Rs for fear of piracy (where, as a consumer, I just want my player to perform well with any disc they claim they can play). Another example: a friend of mine complained recently that his Sony DVD recorder was refusing to burn into DVD some of his old VHS tapes he was trying to preserve because of copyright issues (where, as a consumer, he felt that was none of the recorder's damn business - since the recorder does not know if that is a Sony film of not).

Well... these examples may or not be true. But Sony's technology is growing less and less consumer friendly over the years and more and more self oriented. Meaning that when you buy a Sony product, you may be buying a whole set of compromises because the company if much bigger than the product you bought.

Msft issues, on the other hand, do not touch me so much because I (for example) do not work with servers. Their competitors are other companies. NOT consumers. I believe that is why Linux was born. And Firefox...

Meaning that while Msft competes with other companies IN THE SOFTWARE BUSINESS, Sony competes ALSO with consumers who may (in their view) hurt other divisions of the company (like the film production and distribution division).

I am NOT trying to defend Msft or accuse Sony, since I acknowledge the fact that both companies ARE there for a profit and ARE there to defend their interests ...but it is my belief that Msft's battles are (most of the time) between companies while Sony's battles are (sometimes) with the consumers themselves...

The rootkit incident a couple of years ago is just an example. The DVD ARCooS problem recently is just another example.

Maybe Msft does the same without my knowledge... I don't know... but if my software REALLY IS illegal, I am the one who's wrong. Sony, on the other hand does not seemed bothered with all the LEGAL things they crush on their aggressive fight for what they think is right. They don't seem bothered about the headache they can cause someone who is completely legal just to get those who are not.

My impression is that if you can do better than Msft, you are in for success: Photoshop, Dreamwaver, Firefox, AVG, Norton, etc etc etc... so, expect competition from Msft because they will try to do better than you back - and sometimes they really can't.

But be in Sony's way and they will try to get into your computer and mess with your IRS!!!! (laughs), hide your car keys and make your legal DVDs unplayable.

SECOND
Now... Some people argued that this should be the time for Toshiba to back out and join Sony and the BDA, thus, avoiding the "horrible" format war. I don't believe in that. And I do not believe that Sony/Philips gave up their DVD-like format because of "good will" towards Toshiba (or consumers) back in the early nineties.

The only reason why none of these groups did go to war before is because one backed out for fear they could not win.

But this time, they both believe they can win. So why not risk?

THIRD
Format wars have good and bad things. Good things: both formats battle to evolve faster and prices. Bad things: the winner may not be the best; you may bet on the wrong horse.

FOURTH
Microsoft and Toshiba do not make content. OR the content they make is so small they cannot use it as weapon. Toshiba still gets paid for every DVD or HD DVD that is sold. They do not care what content is in the disc. If your film does not come with interactive features, you do not have to pay Msft for HDi. Just put the movie on the disc and Toshiba is happy enough.

Sony does care about what content is in that disc because they are ALSO a major content producer and distributor. So if they can make you buy the same title twice, they will.

The rootkit was an example of how one of these two things (the content OR the format that contains it) can be used as a weapon to help the other.

This is a philosophical thing - and thats where the Cartel thing comes to be. I do believe the BDA led by Sony has some practices that are typical of a cartel.

That's what I feel. Thanks.

It's about HOW the profit is earned. Lying, cheating, stealing, are not how an ethical society should encourage business.
Enron aside, what's lying? Apple using 10 year old "cryptic" error messages & other bogus stuff in ads? Sony not tellling anyone the show is a market vehicle? Not delivering on promised software delivery?

What's cheating? Using market position to get suppliers to lower prices maximizing profit (giving the consumer the lowest price)? MS giving away a browser? (too bad for NetCrap - boo frigg'n hoo)

We'd have to come up with clear cut definitions.

Now what is happening is traditional IT companies are competing with CE. Both are large - and while IT companies are gingerely steeping into the living room - CE companies are flexing their muscle trying to gobble up everything.It's not just IT companies. Many new names, and some popular old names, are simply a marketing company buying/reselling products from ODMs. Popular old brand names have been bought/licensed in an attempt to make the consumer feel better about purchasing the product. Anybody can be a CE company these days. :)

Sony is all over the place .... they control end-to-end from mavie making to final display.I wouldn't say control, as CE equipment has to be interoperable. Their BD content will play on any BD player. An HD DVD player can drive their HDTVs. Etc.

Gee it seems that every credible individual who has said something positive about HD DVD has been a consultant to Microsoft. :rolleyes:

:eek: Is that a coincidence or what? :o

The naievete of some of you is staggering. There is nothing inherently good or evil in earning profit (IMO). It's about HOW the profit is earned. Lying, cheating, stealing, are not how an ethical society should encourage business.
In addition to naivete, there must be some project hydra types (from both camps ?) operating here, because many posts just don't reflect a sensible consumer's interest, like arguing CE companies deserve higher margin, affordable players a bad thing, ...

Originally Posted by Kosty
Gee it seems that every credible individual who has said something positive about HD DVD has been a consultant to Microsoft. :rolleyes:

:eek: Is that a coincidence or what? :o It was meant as a sarcastic comment that that seems to be the response from pro Blu-ray people. A lot of creditable people with no MSFT ties have been saying positive thing about HD DVD. Its just that attacking a pundit, by saying they are in the pockets of MSFT, and not being able to refute their arguments point by point is lame.

Notice the sarcastic rolleyes smilie icon :rolleyes:

Not surprised at all the intent of the comment went right by some people.

For example , hiring Joe Kane and Joel Silver from the ISF to develop a calibration video for Windows XP Media Center does not invalidate those guys credentials in the world of A/V.

Others have taken money from both sides, yet some people only point out the historical HD DVD company connections.

Invalidating the source is a common logical fallacy when you cannot refute the argument.

I'm sure it's a pure coincience that every individual that's pro HDDVD has been a consultant to Microsoft. lol, I'm just extremely appreciative of the irony of your misplaced sarcasm, though I did intend it in good humor. :)

Noone said their "credentials" were invalidated... merely that the hypothetical partisanship of people correlated with their objectivity.

It was meant as a sarcastic comment that that seems to be the response from pro Blu-ray people. A lot of creditable people with no MSFT ties have been saying positive thing about HD DVD. Its just that attacking a pundit, by saying they are in the pockets of MSFT, and not being able to refute their arguments point by point is lame.

Notice the sarcastic rolleyes smilie icon :rolleyes:

Not surprised at all the intent of the comment went right by some people.

For example , hiring Joe Kane and Joel Silver from the ISF to develop a calibration video for Windows XP Media Center does not invalidate those guys credentials in the world of A/V.

Others have taken money from both sides, yet some people only point out the historical HD DVD company connections.

Invalidating the source is a common logical fallacy when you cannot refute the argument.

Funny considering MS employees and Toshiba employees go around asking people (myself as well) if they work for Hydra when they can't refute a point or simply want to divert attention from the facts, lol :p

The difference is, after you've installed it:

1.

The Sony rootkit pretends it is part of the OS by installing a service that calls itself "Plug and Play Device Manager".

WGA identifies itself clearly, and does not install any services.

2.

The Sony rootkit intentionally tries to disable your optical drive by returning static when a program tries to read the CD with any program other than the bundled Sony player, regardless of what program you're using or if you are doing legal things or not.

WGA will notify you if it doesn't find a legal license and blocks access to Windows updates and downloads, but WGA will not attempt to otherwise disable or damage your system.

3.

The Sony rootkit allows any other piece of software to use it to hide files and registry keys on your system just by prepending the name with $sys$. Hiding things from the legitimate user of the system is one of the primary purposes of a rootkit.

WGA does not anything of that sort.

4.

And in the ultimate irony, when you asked for the uninstaller for their rootkit, Sony pointed you to a web site that installed an ActiveX control which would allow anyone on the internet to add, remove, and alter any file on your hard drive silently.


---

:rolleyes: So yes, I guess WGA and the Sony rootkit are exactly the same. :rolleyes:
Adds up to my point - Sony is the LAST company I would want running the HD disc cartel. And, MS is the LAST company I would want running the download cartel, or should I say monopoly.

The other guy (is that Toyoto, or Towsheba, or whatever...) pales in comparison.

you wonder what happened to the companies that make Wordstar, Wordperfect, Visicalc, Supercalc, TurboPascal, dBase, Lotus 123, Netscape Navigator...
It's hard to compete against something that is FREE or very cheap. A few decades ago, Japan dumped memory chips on our market until all (~12) US memory chip makers threw in the towel. It's a simple concept - other products/markets support taking a loss in one market until you drive out all competition, then make a maximum profit there and go after another market.

Cartels, like monopolies and oligopolies, are good at one thing - bleeding you dry.

It's a simple concept - other products/markets support taking a loss in one market until you drive out all competition, then make a maximum profit there and go after another market.

Cartels, like monopolies and oligopolies, are good at one thing - bleeding you dry.

Hmm, so what is the Xbox, HD DVD and the Zune. I can guarantee that none of these projects make any profit, hell the Xbox project alone is in a $5bn hole.

some people only point out the historical HD DVD company connections.
We try very hard not to point out that Amir used to work for Sony.

Invalidating the source is a common logical fallacy when you cannot refute the argument.
It is. Another logical fallacy is asserting that the argument is valid due to a positive view of the source.

And, MS is the LAST company I would want running the download cartel, or should I say monopoly.
Not sure, I'd likely give that title to Crapple - they reamed me once for overpriced hardware.......never again = oh the downloads are $10................but it will take $6,000 of our hardware to get them.

Not sure, I'd likely give that title to Crapple - they reamed me once for overpriced hardware.......never again = oh the downloads are $10................but it will take $6,000 of our hardware to get them.

Come back Bailey. The obligatory arse reaming in buying Macs is over.

Gee it seems that every credible individual who has said something positive about HD DVD has been a consultant to Microsoft.

I don't know Kosty, haven't found a credible person thaty has something positive to say about HD DVD yet :)

Invalidating the source is a common logical fallacy when you cannot refute the argument.

not at all. There Are two logical fallacies

1) ad hominem: ad hominem happens when someone brings in evidence about the person that is irrelevant to the discussion.

e.g.

guy: I think abortion should not be allowed because murder is not allowed and you are killing a person

girl: you are a guy and can't understand

the first person being a guy is irrelevant, he never brought up anything that would be guy related and she never answered his premis

Christian: abortion is bad because God says so

Pro abortion: you think abortion is bad because you are a Christian

this is not ad hominem because he brought up God and ones view of God is dependent on his belief



2) appeal to authority: an appeal to authority (as the OP) is valid if all of these three are true about them

a) there is a general consensus
b) the person is renowned as an authority
c) the person is unbiased

------
in this case the guy does not pass any of the stink tests, pointing that out is not an ad hominem

In America, first you get the BluRay. Then you get the power. Then you get the women .

</HomerSimpson> :rolleyes:

Hmm, so what is the Xbox, HD DVD and the Zune. I can guarantee that none of these projects make any profit, hell the Xbox project alone is in a $5bn hole.
And PS3. Selling at a loss is a battle tactic used in many wars. The legal system is way to slow to effectively stop illegal forms, but I'll guess none of these are illegal.

I worked for the world's largest electronics OEM (29 factories world wide - OEM'ing for all the big names.) They had a simple solution for dealing with countries that were dumping chips - shift production to facilities in those countries. This avoids the problem of importing dumped (below cost) chips. Simply import assemblies with dumped chips.

PS Great signature. Who gets credit for the quote?

...There Are two logical fallacies...

Good stuff from an educated poster - very refreshing. Got more?

So you're saying that WGA is only a problem if you pirated software?! OH MY what a horrible thing! :rolleyes:

Are you blind?

Because as usual, the WGA thingy is already cracked and not an issue for those that don´t actually pay for stuff. Congratz!

WGA is a problem for everyone that pays for their software.

Come back Bailey. The obligatory arse reaming in buying Macs is over.
LMAO - Thanks, it's good to start the day w/ a laugh (lots of us got reamed w/ Macs)

Anyway, I don't want either Apple or MS to "own" the download biz - that doesn't bode well for the consumer.

In America, first you get the BluRay. Then you get the power. Then you get the women .

</HomerSimpson> :rolleyes:

Waiting patiently....... :p

Are you blind?



WGA is a problem for everyone that pays for their software.

Explain how this is a "problem", or specifically, MORE of a problem than ALL software, music/movies, and video games industry, since these (99%) can also be pirated.

Also, mind cutting back on the direct insults?

Edit: Microsoft, like all software/entertainment companies are only trying to protect their investments and products from piracy. This is the classic case of a few bad apples ruining the bunch, the few (compared the the masses) that pirate software have forced companies into creating these measures to prevent the most basic kinds of piracy.

Anyway, to promote an environment of peace in the HD forums, this will be my last post on this subject. I can understand your point of view, that while these kinds of measures, such as WGA, can be seen as "intrusive" I personally believe they have become a necessity. But from a business standpoint, it is necessary to use such tools to protect their assets. I think that as long as these tools can be disabled (at the cost of unable to download additional tools, which is what MSFT has done) but still allow for critical patches etc, and have been clearly notified to the user (unlike Sony's rootkit). There's a right way and a wrong way of doing these things, unfortunately they're necessary due to the ease of pirating.

2nd edit: Basically, I'll (we) agree to disagree.

Everyone should be made to read this post before being allowed to post in this area. It probably wont, but it may help dispell some of the "hatred" and "BS" spouted by both sides of the argument.

Its the closest I've come to reading a concise unbiased fact based account of Hi Def, the story so far!


What happened ironicaly is that many people were afraid of the advanced codecs that everyone loves today.

BD started out in 2003 as a recordable only cartridge format. It was 23GB per disc SL/SS. Sony didn't randomly choose that number. 23GB was enough capacity to record 2 hours of OTA HD in it's native mpeg2 stream. Sony and 8 other companies formed the Bluray Group to develop BD as a recordable format. The irony is that because they couldn't perfect a DL disc at the time they spend serious $$$$ on developing a new optical format (i.e 0.1mm top layer, larger Numerical Aperature). The format is now known as the essentially dead Blu-ray Disc Rewritable (RE) Format Version 1.

Around the same time Toshiba & NEC were developing a stamped only format known as AOD. They decided to keep the optical physical structure the same as DVD. A DVD uses same focal length as a CD it simply changes the wavelength from IR to Red. AOD used same proven technology and simply moved from a red diode to blue diode. Despite what seem people still believe AOD(now HD DVD) and BD use the exact same 405nm diode.

In middle of 2003 Toshiba presented AOD to DVD Forum to be named HD DVD. The BD Group saw the formation of HD media as a way to grow BD beyond a record only format. Both sides had a problem though.

AOD didn't have enough space. A DVD9 hold 9.4GB and 1080p has 6.75 the information of 480p so mpeg2 on HDTV would need about 63GB. Now the truth is most DVD9 are not full, extras can be encoded at lower bitrate and audio didn't need a 6.75X improvement however mpeg2 would require about 50-55GB. That is Toshiba proposed changing the codec from mpeg2 to either mjpeg, H.264 or VC-1.

BD had a different problem. It was designed from ground up as a total break from DVD. The 0.1mm top layer required for the larger NA was causing huge problems in trying to convert it to a stamped format and make it dual layered. However if BD could be converted to BD-ROM then it would allow movies to be kept on mpeg2. Despite all the joy over AVC and VC-1 today this was and major advantage for BD.

The DVD Forum arranged some encoding tests for mjpeg, H.264 and VC-1. The initial results were horrible. The results didn't do anything to alleviate the huge concerns the movie industry had for switching from mpeg2. Had it not been for Microsoft AOD would have died. Microsoft was able in a tremendously short time improve the VC-1 codec that AOD looked like it could work.

Sony and the BD group at the time continued to bash these alternate over compressed codecs arguing that they would take years to mature. mpeg2 encoders had nearly a decade of improvement and to throw it away for some unproven tech was radical and dangerous.

Toshiba argued (correct) that software will improve faster than hardware. Hardware in this case refers to the physical format, and related mechanical/optical development. Toshiba argued that the encoders & decoders along with the silicon to power them would continue to increase at a geometric rate while mechanical improvements to disc chemistry, hard coat improvements, optical pickups, physical duplication would improve much slower.

The basic argument between the two formats came down to AOD w/ unproven software and proven optical format or BD with proven mpeg2 and unproven optical format. Software vs Hardware.

Toshiba was able to show high yields even in 2003 due to the similarities to DVD. Simply put BD was ready yet. Sony and backers argued that more time should be devoted to allow BD to develop. In 2003 (and in 2006 some would argue) BD had potential but not results. Toshiba called for a vote that AOD become HD DVD to replace DVD. The improving results from VC-1 and AVC along with duplication test results that were higher than expected results from a prototype technology convinced some but not enough members of the steering committe. The big hold outs were CE companies. They saw profit margins go from hundreds of $$ to virtually nothing on DVD players. The HD DVD was simply a DVD player with blue diode and moderately faster decoding hardware. There was little to guarantee that cheap chinese products wouldn't make HD DVD commodity items in a few years.

The results in DVD Forum is that abstains count against. For example if vote was 3 for, 2 against, and 2 abstain the vote would fail. Toshiba put AOD up to a vote twice and lost due to high number of abstains. Most companies didn't want to vote against HD DVD but they also felt BD had promise given a little more time. It was a nice way of voting down HD DVD without pissing Toshiba off. Toshiba as chairman of DVD Forum changed the rules governing voting. Abstains would no longer count for or against a vote. The vote was brought up a third time in November 2003. While a large % of members abstained the vote passed because the number of for was greater than negative.

In early 2004 the BD group included many of the disaffected CE members and changed the name to BDA. They began to recruit the studios. HD DVD was going to launch in late 2005. If it had done that likely BD would have died long before it could launch but Toshiba ran into a problem they couldn't control. The diodes that had been produced in labs for couple years already were proving virtually impossible to produce commercially in the quality, quantity, and price necessary for CE devices. Toshiba had to push launch back twice. Combined with little CE support (due to fear on margins), low HDTV adoption rates in US, and problems with AACS ratification the idea of a quick transfer from DVD to HD DVD began to look more and more slim. The BDA machine was in full effect courting the studios w/ features and security to weaken HD DVD. When Fox announced BD only support and Sony announced the BD would be a mandatory component in PS3 Toshiba lost the PR battle before it could ship it's first player.

The battle had a heavy price for BD though also. Sony added after numerous refusals to include the new codecs for video & audio. Sony had argued BD had sufficient capacity to have high quality mpeg2 and PCM. Keeping the player simple would compensate for the complicated optics and allow players to market faster. For what it is worth I think Sony was right. If BD had launched same day as HD DVD as mpeg/pcm only with BD50 and flawless PQ/AQ it would have ended the war instantly. BD also added ROM-Mark, BD+, BD-J, BD Live and more resulting in numerous changes to the specs. The result is that BD is a very complicated format and even today many players are not compliant to all of the specs.

Despite the media portrayal of the two sides trying to reach a compromise there never was a chance. BD's major difference with HD DVD is the change in optical design. Take it away and it would have same capacity as HD DVD. Lower capacity would make mpeg2 & LPCM virtually unusable which was a big push by Sony. AOD used many of the same designs as DVD which Toshiba has the lion's share of patents. Take away the similarity to DVD and Toshiba's royalties dry up also.

That's an excellent post!

Only one terminology point: IIRC in 2003 VC-1 was still being called Windows Media Video 9.

That's an excellent post!
Ditto!

While there's no angels here it re-enforces what I've always thought - BDA was all about reaming the public for as much as they could for as long as they could.

And PS3. Selling at a loss is a battle tactic used in many wars. The legal system is way to slow to effectively stop illegal forms, but I'll guess none of these are illegal.

I worked for the world's largest electronics OEM (29 factories world wide - OEM'ing for all the big names.) They had a simple solution for dealing with countries that were dumping chips - shift production to facilities in those countries. This avoids the problem of importing dumped (below cost) chips. Simply import assemblies with dumped chips.

PS Great signature. Who gets credit for the quote?

Of course, but I was just pointing out that selling at a loss is a legitimate business tactic for removing the competition, but some companies are better than others at doing it. MS used to be the best in the business, but recently they are falling behind and now that their OS is looking flaky and Office is, well, not the best software I have ever had the displeasure of using, it seems that the free-flowing cash to these places may have to stop.

The difference between the PS3 and the Xbox, is that the gaming division for Sony has made a lot of money throughout its history, MGS otoh has posted a loss in every single quarter bar one (in which Halo 2 was released). So selling the Xbox at a loss didn't work for MS, but selling the PS2 at a loss worked for Sony.

Sig - well I heard it from my father, but that was ages ago in secondary school. I never asked him where he heard it.

Of course, but I was just pointing out that selling at a loss is a legitimate business tactic for removing the competition, but some companies are better than others at doing it.


I don't think predatory pricing is widely viewed as a legitimate business tactic.

I don't think predatory pricing is widely viewed as a legitimate business tactic.

Only in the USA, in Europe there is nothing wrong with it, in fact the only companies not allowed to get involved in such strategies are ex-nationalised companies as they have to adhere to strict rules set out by the competition commission. Otherwise it is widely encouraged by the governments as it helps keep inflation down, as the companies involved in this are never really going to be a challenge to the likes of BT and British Gas etc... but they do have the overall effect of bringing prices for consumers down. So really it depends on who is engaging in this type of scheme, if BT were to do it and lower ADSL prices to £10 an month for 8Mbit which is lower than other companies, then Ofcom (the regulator) would step in and force a price rise.

Its the closest I've come to reading a concise unbiased fact based account of Hi Def, the story so far!

not completely un-biased but a relatively good post. There are also some mistakes ( due mostly to the bias)

for example

"The results in DVD Forum is that abstains count against. For example if vote was 3 for, 2 against, and 2 abstain the vote would fail. "

that is not true unless you are for something. You need a majority for either side to win. If there is not, then that means more work/research is needed and it is brought back again.

so a no majority = done -no more discussion
yes majority = done - it is accepted
<50% for both sides = discussions continue. things just get delayed

there are other such inexactities BD was not 23GB there was no standard, it went from 23-27GB

Only in the USA, in Europe there is nothing wrong with it, in fact the only companies not allowed to get involved in such strategies are ex-nationalised companies as they have to adhere to strict rules set out by the competition commission. Otherwise it is widely encouraged by the governments as it helps keep inflation down, as the companies involved in this are never really going to be a challenge to the likes of BT and British Gas etc... but they do have the overall effect of bringing prices for consumers down. So really it depends on who is engaging in this type of scheme, if BT were to do it and lower ADSL prices to £10 an month for 8Mbit which is lower than other companies, then Ofcom (the regulator) would step in and force a price rise.

I don't think that is accurate.

See this article from January of this year:
http://www.gibsondunn.com/practices/publications/detail/id/609/?pubItemId=8370

not at all. There Are two logical fallacies


There are several.

http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/fallacies.html

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/taxonomy.html

There are several.

true, did not mean to imply there are two in the world. There are many of them. But two that might apply in this type of scenario.


for example from your first link

Argumentum ad hominem: his is the error of attacking the character or motives of a person who has stated an idea, rather than the idea itself.

so even though someone might say it is an ad hominem (if he stopped reading there) to bring up his links to MS and Toshiba and his consultation on HD DVD as an ad hominem it clearly is not as the rest of the definition shows

But there are some cases when it is not really a fallacy, such as when one needs to evaluate the truth of factual statements (as opposed to lines of argument or statements of value) made by interested parties. If someone has an incentive to lie about something, then it would be naive to accept his statements about that subject without question.


if one was to read

Argumentum ad verecundiam (argument or appeal to authority). ...In general, debaters should be called down for committing argumentum ad verecundiam only when (a) they rely on an unqualified source for information about facts without other (qualified) sources of verification, or (b) they imply that some policy must be right simply because so-and-so thought so.

ergo the people bringing up his financial incentive are not committing a fallacy, but the OP
with
Here's your proof about the bully tactics of the BDA, I'm sure many will try to refute this but it's right from the former president of Warner.

is committing a fallacy.

In America, first you get the BluRay. Then you get the power. Then you get the women .

</HomerSimpson> :rolleyes:

thats just awesome! thanks for the laugh.

MS is a software company. They want software control. Having HDi AND VC-1 dominate the next gen format, which btw, would be BR if MS had gone neutral as I don't believe Toshiba and Universal are strong enough without MS to fight this out.

I've always thought the reason M$ backed HD DVD was they saw a chance to win the game console war. If BR fails to win or even dominate the high def format war, then the PS3 with its built in BR drive stumbles, and the Xbox rule supreme in the game console market. Good strategic planning, and so far it seems to be panning out. :cool:

If BR fails to win or even dominate the high def format war, then the PS3 with its built in BR drive stumbles

I can't see why it would cause it to stumble. Worst case scenario it becomes irrelevent. Though if BD does do well it does become a selling point.

Honestly I think it is for a couple of big reasons (with sub reasons in each)

1) keep HD disks from being adopted. The format war slows adoption, Studios are trying them out but if the numbers don't go up in a couple of years studios will lose interest and look at something else

2) it becomes a show point. In HD DVD you have MS codecs, MS menu system, and with MC MS DRM. So that when HD disks fail MS can go "Look we can give you a DL system, most of which techs you already know, It will also have our new DRM, it will be compatible with what people have, and instead of full 1080p HD we can sell convenience - DL the movie you want in minutes over high speed"

not completely un-biased but a relatively good post. There are also some mistakes ( due mostly to the bias)

for example

"The results in DVD Forum is that abstains count against. For example if vote was 3 for, 2 against, and 2 abstain the vote would fail. "

that is not true ...
You do not know that. Standards forums are concensus, not majority.

You do not know that. Standards forums are concensus, not majority.

I don't know what? how the voting works? everyone does it is public. Why did you not say the same thing when Namechamp talked about voting. Also I guess glancing over I missed the rest of the paragraph but it was not a change in voting that lead to a yes but adding two new members MS and Disney.

The DVD forum did not invent anything new it is called an absolute majority http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_majority

You have obviously never participated in a standards forum. They are technical experts. They work until they mutually agree on the science. Science is not majority rules.

I’d love to hear from insiders on both sides of the format about some of the unmentioned dealings that has gone on because of this war.

Without even looking that high up to a corporate level though I can see for myself cartel strong-arm tactics being used right here on discussion boards about what is said. Just to see neutral insiders like CJPlay disappear from AVS shortly after criticizing Blu-ray shows how new comers right here held influence to control what information is allowed to be posted. Perhaps this is why you may strain to find a neutral professional that will speak on the topic.

That horse was beat to death many times. Warner did not want it to appear that CJPlay was speaking in their name, which isn't all that uncommon, regardless of how reasonable (or not) we think it is. That's why the corporations hire PR pinheads and marketing goons.

That horse was beat to death many times. Warner did not want it to appear that CJPlay was speaking in their name, which isn't all that uncommon, regardless of how reasonable (or not) we think it is. That's why the corporations hire PR pinheads and marketing goons.

This does still not change the fact that it happened right after CJPlay left a negative opinion about BR and was warned by others here on AVS that they would pursue contacting these companies to have him removed.

Except it's obvious that noone from the "evil Blu-ray Cartel" had the ability to pull the necessary stings to get him removed. Warner, a decidedly HD-DVD leaning company (but for the mandate from their corporate parent), pulled him (or more accurately told his company to tell him not to speak for them). His company may or may not have overreacting, but that's certainly there perrogative. The implication that the BDA is responsible for his absence is entirely inappropriate.

(or more accurately told his company to tell him not to speak for them). His company may or may not have overreacting, but that's certainly there perrogative.His company is owned in whole by Warner. The threats to "tell on" CJPlay and the subsequent statement by CJPlay that he was directed to no longer participate here on AVS are all a matter of record. The interpretation of the cause and effect are up to us as individuals who carefully read all of the posts at that time. IMHO. YMMV.

We don't see much of the BMOC, maybe someone's pulled his chain

You have obviously never participated in a standards forum. They are technical experts. They work until they mutually agree on the science. Science is not majority rules.

lol, that is the funniest thing I read. Except for none of it being remotely right, why don't you just go to the DVD forums home page and read their charter, it is there for anyone to see and you can read exactly how their decisions are made.

...as long as the disc structure was the same as that of SD DVD. :rolleyes:

Thus extending DVD patents life into HD DVD.

Cui bono?

USA patens have a life-span of 17 years, since most of the DVD patens are getting close to expiring I would think the value of either format would be in the newly issued pattens.

Plus, regardless of Warren Lieberfarb affiliations, he is not going to make up stories or lie in any way whatsoever. Warren Lieberfarb is a very highly respected and honorable man. Further, the BDA and Sony's attitude and culture is common knowledge.

-Robert

USA patens have a life-span of 17 years, since most of the DVD patens are getting close to expiring I would think the value of either format would be in the newly issued pattens.

Plus, regardless of Warren Lieberfarb affiliations, he is not going to make up stories or lie in any way whatsoever. Warren Lieberfarb is a very highly respected and honorable man. Further, the BDA and Sony's attitude and culture is common knowledge.

-Robert

Thank you. Yes. Warren Lieberfab is definitely not in the same league as the Sony/Fox thugs. Warren did a tremendous job with DVD and is actually the main actor in its success.

Too bad most people defending Sony have no clue what they are talking about : one only needs to look at their constant stream of lies ("we won the war", fake fan websites, fake movie critics, etc), deceptive and disruptive DRM tactics (rootkits, Arccos, etc), and utmost arrogance ("the new generation starts when we say it does", "HD DVD is dead by end of 2007", etc).

I'm afraid many of those defending Sony do much of that too.

And Isaac Newton, after largely creating classical mechanics, then dabbled in alchemy during his late life. Are we to approve of that line of research just because he previously devised the laws of motion?

Not to be pedantic, and certainly not to threadjack, but Newton's interest in Alchemy led directly to his theory of gravity, and his alchemical "late life" would have been in his 40's, but he lived to be 84. Principa Mathmatica came afterwards, and his work at the Royal Mint consumed the last 29 years of his life. Also, Alchemy was a multi-faceted area, and much of what was Western Alchemy went on to become the foundations for several modern sciences, specifically chemistry and metallurgy, but also had an impact on physics and medicine.

I guess my point is that your example is wrong. :)

lol, that is the funniest thing I read. Except for none of it being remotely right, why don't you just go to the DVD forums home page and read their charter, it is there for anyone to see and you can read exactly how their decisions are made.
Missed this. In order to avoid admitting Anthony is right, I'll have to say that it is obviously a trade group not a standards forum. :)

Plus, regardless of Warren Lieberfarb affiliations, he is not going to make up stories or lie in any way whatsoever. Warren Lieberfarb is a very highly respected and honorable man.Ahem, Robert you forget this is AVS forum. Warren Lieberfarb is a lying scumbag, pretty much on par with the well-known whack job Isaac Newton. :rolleyes: