From the CED Industry Newsletter a few week ago:

The article is talking about the Samsung Duo player recently announced, but at the end of the article is this tiny bit about what happened at a recent DVD Forum meeting.

Blu-ray stalwart Panasonic brutalized LG for its combo at the latest DVD Forum Steering Committee meeting, we're told. From transcripts we've seen, Panasonic accused LG of breach of contract for offering a combo player, and said it should be censured for doing so. LG blithely thanked Panasonic for bringing publicity to its combo -- and said its lawyers would respond. In what seemed an exchange of spite, LG split ranks with its Blu-ray compatriots by voting in favor of all HD DVD measures before the SC -- rather than abstaining, as the pragmatic Korean companies usually had.

Hopefully people will see the humor in this and not take the happening too seriously, no matter what side of the fence they are on...

Wow, just Wow

I think it would be safe to say that at this point in time things have not exactly gone the way either side would have hoped.

With things looking less and less likely for either side to be able to declair a decisive victory I can see tensions rising all over the place.

If in fact the BR model requires virtual domination to be viable as some claim then we should see continued cracks forming.

If Toshiba is just doing this to prolong the war and maintain DVD licensing revenues as some claim then maybe they are truly the smart ones.

Expect studios and CE's to see mounting pressure from consumers, retailers, the press, you name it both for and against each format, choosing a unified format, killing one or the other formats in the next year. It is going to be a bumpy ride for sure.

Cheers,

Richard

In all likelihood this is just coincidence but it's interesting how both major CEs which have broken ranks from BD exclusivity are Korean, and not Japanese companies.

I'm sure that LG and Samsung knew that they would get major heat from the other BD only companies, but perhaps they took some comfort in knowing of each other's plans ahead of time "if you produce a duo player so will we" ?

In all likelihood this is just coincidence but it's interesting how both major CEs which have broken ranks from BD exclusivity are Korean, and not Japanese companies.

I'm sure that LG and Samsung knew that they would get major heat from the other BD only companies, but perhaps they took some comfort in knowing of each other's plans ahead of time "if you produce a duo player so will we" ?

Things that make you go hmmm... :)

So they sue LG, LG is trying to protect its company's bottom line by trying not to leave any money on the table. Who is Panasonic to tell them what is good for there company?

I wonder just what kind of anti-competitve contract they are talking about, and if the EU has seen a copy of it...

Man - I was hearing stuff about this and was just dying to see the story posted.

I would LOVE to know more about the contract they supposedly breached. And I'm sure the EU and other consumer affairs bodies should get a good read, too!

Very interesting.

Would love to see the BDA contracts with studios and CE's :)

Would love to see the BDA contracts with studios and CE's :)I would love to see contracts from both sides. I bet both would make interesting reads. I wonder if some of them are with the parent companies, like Sony with Time-Warner, Toshiba with General Electric, etc.

--Darin

I would love to see contracts from both sides. I bet both would make interesting reads. I wonder if some of them are with the parent companies, like Sony with Time-Warner, Toshiba with General Electric, etc.

--Darin

Yeah that side would be interesting also. More importantly, I'd love to read Amir's book if he's serious about it. The backroom politics that have and are taking place in this war could be entertaining beyond belief.

At the end of the day, I just wanna be entertained :)

At the end of the day, I just wanna be entertained :)

And as much as I hate to say this, the next-gen format war has been more entertaining than any HD title on either format. The players involved, the spin, the behind-the-scenes backroom maneuvering, the hype, the passion aroused on internet chatrooms. I almost want the standoff between BD and HD-DVD to continue so my daily quota on non-stop fun doesn't dry up overnight! :p

I would love to see contracts from both sides. I bet both would make interesting reads. I wonder if some of them are with the parent companies, like Sony with Time-Warner, Toshiba with General Electric, etc.

--Darin
See, that's the part that confuses me. Why would Murdoch pair up with Sony?

Interesting.
Excellent find!

And as much as I hate to say this, the next-gen format war has been more entertaining than any HD title on either format. The players involved, the spin, the behind-the-scenes backroom maneuvering, the hype, the passion aroused on internet chatrooms. I almost want the standoff between BD and HD-DVD to continue so my daily quota on non-stop fun doesn't dry up overnight! :p

Take comfort in the fact that this war is far from over. We will know nothing until at least 1/30/09 when 2008's results are in, or even 1/30/10 if it continues for all of 2009.

Personally I see two formats until Super HDTV comes and once again the manufacturers will have a chance to unite and produce a single format.

And as much as I hate to say this, the next-gen format war has been more entertaining than any HD title on either format. The players involved, the spin, the behind-the-scenes backroom maneuvering, the hype, the passion aroused on internet chatrooms. I almost want the standoff between BD and HD-DVD to continue so my daily quota on non-stop fun doesn't dry up overnight! :p

I hear ya. An Indie label needs to produce a documentary on the rollout of Blu-ray and HD DVD and all the wheeling and dealing that's going on. I can see the title now - "HD DVD vs. Blu-ray: The Greediest Guys In The Room" :D

The part I consider the most telling, is that Sony and the BDA made public statements before there was a combo player saying there was nothing keeping any company from making such a player. They were basically saying that anyone can make a combo player if they want to, but the BDA companies were so committed to the Blu-ray format, and they were so certain Blu-ray would prevail, there was no reason to make a dual format player.

LG decided to make a combo, has to, essentially, keep it a secret until they are nearly ready to release it, then gets accused of breach of a contract that isn't supposed to exist.

The outright lies of the BDA turn my stomach.

Would this make LG go HD DVD only, or maybe Samsung as well?

What would be the penality for them doing so?

I hear ya. An Indie label needs to produce a documentary on the rollout of Blu-ray and HD DVD and all the wheeling and dealing that's going on. I can see the title now - "HD DVD vs. Blu-ray: The Greediest Guys In The Room" :D

ROTFLMAO :D :D :D

Remember that Samsung is pissed at Sony for what happened last year when Sony promised Samsung they would release the PS3 in Europe in Nov. 2006 so Samsung started selling their standalone in October. Sony left Samsung twisting in the wind and from 10/06 to 3/07 they managed to sell 3000 of them - with almost no software from BDA Europe.

Samsung has publically stated that therre will be NO 2nd. Gen BD player for Europe. Maybe a 3 rd Gen player but that has not been decided yet.

Samsung will defy the BDA and make that DF player and it will be a good one. Not the best but good enough.

I hear ya. An Indie label needs to produce a documentary on the rollout of Blu-ray and HD DVD and all the wheeling and dealing that's going on. I can see the title now - "HD DVD vs. Blu-ray: The Greediest Guys In The Room" :D
And then release it only on red-laser DVD. :D

P.S. I anxiously await next month's newsletter, with comments from Panasonic to Samsung.

And as much as I hate to say this, the next-gen format war has been more entertaining than any HD title on either format. The players involved, the spin, the behind-the-scenes backroom maneuvering, the hype, the passion aroused on internet chatrooms. I almost want the standoff between BD and HD-DVD to continue so my daily quota on non-stop fun doesn't dry up overnight! :p

I couldn't agree with you more. I find myself logging into this website multiple times per day simply to see what the latest news is from both sides. While I won't say that I've become obssessed, I want to know what the heck is gonna happen tomorrow, next week or next month. It's a fun ride.

cheers,

Is the public allowed access to transcript from DVD forum meeting? And what is this "violation of contract" they are talking about? I see "anti-trust" bells going off somewhere at the FTC......

From the CED Industry Newsletter a few week ago:


Great. I didn't want to post this - just alluded to this in other threads.

To give context, this was in the artcile giving the news about Samsung going neutral. The article infact began with "The other show fell off". No wonder BD companies are upset.

This also proves the point I was making earlier when both LG & Samsung backed off their universal announcements in 2006.

I'm not Asian but I've many friends that tell me that Korea and Japan are still fuedal in many ways. LG and Samsung probably gave the BDA the old "College Try" and when it didn't work they began to work on bailing.

I'd be interested in knowing the "vibe" of Japan and Korea. Japan has always felt superior to China and Korea IMO (admittedly I have little actual experience but looking from a historical viewpoint) and I think Samsung relishes being called "the next Sony".

Panasonic and Sony are like cousins. They both aligned for AVCHD (which was virtually ignored at NAB 2007) camcorders yet they also compete (DVD-Audio vs SACD).

Should be interesting to see how the rest of the year goes. This does prove to me that Panasonic is not wavering in Blu-ray support which will make some people happy.

Japan has always felt superior to China and Korea IMO (admittedly I have little actual experience but looking from a historical viewpoint) and I think Samsung relishes being called "the next Sony".

A bit of history would be useful. Nothing would satisfy Koreans than beating Japanese.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korea#Japanese_occupation

Korean resistance to the brutal [11][12][13] Japanese occupation was manifested in the nonviolent March 1st Movement of 1919, where 7,000 demonstrators were killed by Japanese police and military.[14] Thereafter the Korean independence movement was largely active in neighboring Manchuria and Siberia.

Over five million Koreans were conscripted for labor beginning in 1939[15] and tens of thousands of men[16] were conscripted into Japan's military. Approximately 200,000 girls and women,[17] mostly from Korea and China, were pressed into work as sex slaves,[18] euphemistically called "comfort women".[19]

The Korean language was banned in official documents and Koreans were obligated to adopt Japanese names. The [20] Traditional Korean culture suffered heavy losses, as numerous Korean cultural artifacts were destroyed[21] or taken to Japan.[22] To this day, valuable Korean artifacts can often be found in Japanese museums or among private collectors.[23] One investigation by the South Korea government identified 75,311 cultural assets that were taken from Korea, 34,369 of which are in Japan, and 17,803 of which are in the United States.[24]

I would love to see contracts from both sides. I bet both would make interesting reads. I wonder if some of them are with the parent companies, like Sony with Time-Warner, Toshiba with General Electric, etc.Do you mean Sony with News Corp?

Japan is still distrusted and disliked throughout most of Asia as result of their violent occupation in the early part of 20th century. However, China, Korea, and Japan still share much of their culture as most politic/science/arts flowed from China through Korea and passed onto Japan throughout most of their history. Japan became a major power in Asia by opening up to the West before their neighbors and quickly adopting rifles instead of swords.

A bit of history would be useful. Nothing would satisfy Koreans than beating Japanese.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korea#Japanese_occupation


looks to be just business to me and LG trying to keep their investors happy. But this phantom contract is pretty intriguing

Do you mean Sony with News Corp?No. I'm not sure they had to do much for Fox other than BD+. But getting Warner to go neutral probably took some doing.

--Darin

looks to be just business to me and LG trying to keep their investors happy. But this phantom contract is pretty intriguing

Yes I'm sure the EU would "Love" to hear more.

Cultural histories are intersting, but I think this really has much more to do with competitive manoeuvering and the mighty buck.

And I echo the previous sentiment: I would loooove to read find out more about Panasonic contract-breach allegation.

Is the public allowed access to transcript from DVD forum meeting? And what is this "violation of contract" they are talking about? I see "anti-trust" bells going off somewhere at the FTC......

They publish their meeting minutes on their website, but the minutes are typically a little behind the actual meeting. I don't know how much is censored/disclosed in the published minutes, though, but I would be surprised if the juicy stuff was published. And keep in mind, everyone and their mother are members of the DVD Forum, all the players in BDA and HD DVD are members, if not sitting members of the steering committee.

Reading the original post just makes these alliances sound all the more absurd to me; like playground clicks, and just as stable. In terms of the wars duration I'm not at all convinced that across the board neutrality wouldn't have actually sped up a conclusion. People could have just chose on bang for their buck.

Maybe other CE manufactures could have forced Sony and Toshiba to iron this out by either refusing to release HD as long as there were two, or refusing to release anything but hybrids. Likewise the studio's coulda said take a hike until were all on the same page, but that's the problem when you have those that make movies and electronics under one roof.

And as much as I hate to say this, the next-gen format war has been more entertaining than any HD title on either format. The players involved, the spin, the behind-the-scenes backroom maneuvering, the hype, the passion aroused on internet chatrooms. I almost want the standoff between BD and HD-DVD to continue so my daily quota on non-stop fun doesn't dry up overnight! :p

hopefully a neutral studio, Paramount or Warner will buy the right to the story and produces an exclusive Hidef only version of the drama . omg, hopefully it wont be a five-season serie :D :D

looks to be just business to me and LG trying to keep their investors happy. But this phantom contract is pretty intriguing

yes, selling those few tens of combo boxes will make people happy :rolleyes:

Again, all companies would benefit if there was only ONE standard....people who don't think this are just kidding themselves...

It is people like you that allow the evil of this world to perpetuate. Lie down with thieves, and you get what you deserve.

You DO know what Toshiba and Microsoft have done right? They're not "evil" in any sense, but they've done worse than Sony ever did.

Would this make LG go HD DVD only, or maybe Samsung as well?

What would be the penality for them doing so?
The penalty would be they'd have to sell their players below $200 since the toshiba is already below 300, and Toshiba is much better than LG when it comes to dvd players. :D

Ok, maybe 250.

Yeah that side would be interesting also. More importantly, I'd love to read Amir's book if he's serious about it. The backroom politics that have and are taking place in this war could be entertaining beyond belief.

At the end of the day, I just wanna be entertained :)

Will it be in VC-1? :D

...Again, all companies would benefit if there was only ONE standard....people who don't think this are just kidding themselves...
Maybe, but, why would I, a consumer, want that ? I want things that benefit consumers, we are paying these companies, not the other way around ;)

Do you work for a CE company or have some financial stake ? If so, I fully understand your position :eek:

Im sure strange deals are made all the time in the industry, but you dont ever admit that they exist, and you cant hold it against a company that breaks it. Because you cant make that type of deals.

This is definitly something for EU to look into.

I hear ya. An Indie label needs to produce a documentary on the rollout of Blu-ray and HD DVD and all the wheeling and dealing that's going on. I can see the title now - "HD DVD vs. Blu-ray: The Greediest Guys In The Room" :D

Great! I agree, someone should produce 'HD - The Movie'! But which format would it come out on?!! :rolleyes: Or maybe, to keep both sides happy they should produce two movies, ala Flags of our Fathers and Iwo Jima, with the CEOs of Sony and Toshiba alternately playing Gandalf and Saruman?

at this moment customers are chosing bluray. havent you checked the disc sales?

Are you looking at the same numbers where the BDA counts discs given away as "sales" whereas HD DVD does not?

Are you looking at the same numbers where the BDA counts discs given away as "sales" whereas HD DVD does not?

Prove it.

Are you looking at the same numbers where the BDA counts discs given away as "sales" whereas HD DVD does not?

free or given discs are not SALES, nice try

Wow, Koreans love money whoever gives it to them! How surprising!

i meant the sales of discs given by nielsen data. 1.2 million blueray. 950.000 something by hd-dvd.

that simply proves that customers at that point of time bought more bluray then hd-dvd. whatelse is their to talk about? those are proven numbers. or am i not correct? never saw hd-dvd companies claiming those numbers were incorrect.

And yet another AVS thread degenerates into the same old "Oh yeah, well BR is selling more!" thread... never mind that it's completely off-topic to the thread itself.

*sigh*

At this point money can be made only with hybrid players. Given the subsidy for each PS3, it is not possible for a CE manufacturer to produce to a profitable product. While Toshiba is taking advantage of their economies of scale, their products will never reach the scale of the PS3, nor can they be subsidized at that rate.

Panny has some IP in BD and so are fine with just collecting royalties while shoring up their losing steam Plasma line. Pio is another story - BD for them is going down a rat hole where only Andy Parsons has any real role to play. Sony has pretty much killed their current player.

LG and Sammy see the writing on the wall.....time to change course captain. Iceberg ahead! The Titanaic was doing great until that point.

At this point money can be made only with hybrid players. Given the subsidy for each PS3, it is not possible for a CE manufacturer to produce to a profitable product. While Toshiba is taking advantage of their economies of scale, their products will never reach the scale of the PS3, nor can they be subsidized at that rate.

The only way hybrid players can make money is by inflating the well beyond the cost of owning two separate players. Sony is subsidizing their PS3, and Toshiba is subsidizing their entire line. For a player to license both technologies without a subsidy means increased costs. Add a profit margin, and you are well over $1000 (as LG proved with their faux-hybrid).

There just isn't enough owners out there to turn a profit on anything yet. Even the expensive Blu-ray players with high profit margins are used to erode the millions spent in development costs. It will be at least 2008 before profits will be seen.

Panny has some IP in BD and so are fine with just collecting royalties while shoring up their losing steam Plasma line. Pio is another story - BD for them is going down a rat hole where only Andy Parsons has any real role to play. Sony has pretty much killed their current player.

The current Pioneer and Sony standalones are one in the same. How has Sony killed their player, when that player you speak of is made by Pioneer?

LG and Sammy see the writing on the wall.....time to change course captain. Iceberg ahead! The Titanaic was doing great until that point.

LG has produced a player with very limited adoption. Sammy has gone down this road once before, and has turned the ship around. The writing on the wall is that Blu-ray is the standard. Unfortunately, it isn't written in Korean, so they can't read it. :D

LG has produced a player with very limited adoption. Sammy has gone down this road once before, and has turned the ship around. The writing on the wall is that Blu-ray is the standard. Unfortunately, it isn't written in Korean, so they can't read it. Oh Pluzzzz :rolleyes:

That's why LG is working on a second generation model that will fully do iHD and that Samsung has announced their hybrid player.

What if a hybrid player can be made for virtually the same price as a Blu-ray player that has backward compatibility with DVD and CD?

Now that would sink your boat. :D

Oh Pluzzzz :rolleyes:

That's why LG is working on a second generation model that will fully do iHD and that Samsung has announced their hybrid player.

What if a hybrid player can be made for virtually the same price as a Blu-ray player that has backward compatibility with DVD and CD?

Now that would sink your boat. :D

That is a huge "what if" statement. If you can tell me how a player requiring two licenses and two lasers can cost less than a player with one license and one laser, then I might accept that possibility.

As I have for the last year, I will continue to denounce BDA members sitting on the DVD Forum board.

And as before people will pop out of nowhere to defend it. Shortly after that, all posts about the subject will disappear. Leaves me wondering why it upsets them so... ;)

My usual point about this, this is a group based around its members agreeing upon sets of standards to be followed for the industry so that format wars do not continue to plague the market such as VCR/Betamax – HD DVD / Blu-ray. I think these members should step down since there financial interests directly compete against the DVD Forums standards.

Anyway this now furthers the point with one DVD Forum threatening to sue another Forum member for supporting a standard that the DVD Forum itself approved.

rjdam what are customers chosing?

at this moment customers are chosing bluray. havent you checked the disc sales?

about samsung and LG. i have mentioned already before. coreans and chinese can not be trusted business wise. i have worked in corea and in china and Japan. business wise the Japanese can be way more trusted then the chinese and coreans.

if i made a contract with a Japanese company it was always honored. but with the chinese and corean companies i had so many problems.

does that mean coreans or chinese are bad people. ofcourse not. i have some great friends in corea and china. but business wise it is very tough. chinese and coreans businesswise are very very sneaky people.

and you can see those influences everywhere. check the latest scandals about the movie piracy in china for example. with 1 eye they say we dont allow piracy. with the other they just let it continue.

most people dont understand the japanese culture, or chinese or corean. i have lived in corea, in china and in Japan. and if you think it is just business you are very much mistaken.
All i see is some ps3 owners buying a few blu ray movies and since both formats are niche,this gives blu ray a bit of an edge(nothing impressive though).I wouldn't call this "customers are choosing blu ray'.

That is a huge "what if" statement. If you can tell me how a player requiring two licenses and two lasers can cost less than a player with one license and one laser, then I might accept that possibility.

Well that is easy to explain: economics of scale.

When you produce a $599 HD DVD/BD hybrid player you can expect to sell something (and therefor produce) between 100,000 and 500,000 units. When you produce a $599 Bluray player you can expect to sell (and therfor produce) 5,000 to 20,000 units.

In this case the costs for the HD DVD/BD player would be significant lower than the costs for the Bluray player. Economics of scale. And these are not just the fix costs that are getting distributed over more units!

The writing on the wall is that Blu-ray is the standard. Unfortunately, it isn't written in Korean, so they can't read it. :D
And then you woke up buddy. It's time to snap out of your self-induced coma and come back to reality.

Well that is easy to explain: economics of scale.

When you produce a $599 HD DVD/BD hybrid player you can expect to sell something (and therefor produce) between 100,000 and 500,000 units. When you produce a $599 Bluray player you can expect to sell (and therfor produce) 5,000 to 20,000 units.

In this case the costs for the HD DVD/BD player would be significant lower than the costs for the Bluray player. Economics of scale. And these are not just the fix costs that are getting distributed over more units!

Where did you get those numbers? :rolleyes:

You expect me to believe that when there are only 100,000 standalone HD DVD players out there, and less standalone Blu-ray players, that sales will magically increase 5 times? Even at a higher price point?

And where did you get that $599 price point? All indications point to Samsung's player, like the LG, to be over $1000.

And then you woke up buddy. It's time to snap out of your self-induced coma and come back to reality.

When HD DVD plants start playing the "I know you are but what am I?" defense, you know the war is over. :D

Where did you get those numbers? :rolleyes:

You expect me to believe that when there are only 100,000 standalone HD DVD players out there, and less standalone Blu-ray players, that sales will magically increase 5 times? Even at a higher price point?

And where did you get that $599 price point? All indications point to Samsung's player, like the LG, to be over $1000.

These numbers are made up. They are a very rough estimate. They shall only explain what economics of scale are about.

But yes, a hybrid player will sell about ten times more units then a Bluray only player. Thats why ecomomics of scale kick in. And thats probably why LG and Samsung decided to go for hybrid players - or do you think they are HD DVD fanboys who ignore that they have to deliver profit at the end of the fiscal year?

We can argue about the exact numbers. But it will never change the fact, that a hybrid player is much more attractive to the consumer than a Bluray only or a HD DVD only player. Now with the ecomonics of scale the hybrid player can be offered at the price of a Bluray player. The chinese HD DVD players probably cannot be beaten that easyly.

So in the future when you go in a shop you will either find a cheap HD DVD player or a more expensive hybrid player.

Just my humble opinion.

These numbers are made up. They are a very rough estimate. They shall only explain what economics of scale are about.

But yes, a hybrid player will sell about ten times more units then a Bluray only player. Thats why ecomomics of scale kick in. And thats probably why LG and Samsung decided to go for hybrid players - or do you think they are HD DVD fanboys who ignore that they have to deliver profit at the end of the fiscal year?

We can argue about the exact numbers. But it will never change the fact, that a hybrid player is much more attractive to the consumer than a Bluray only or a HD DVD only player. Now with the ecomonics of scale the hybrid player can be offered at the price of a Bluray player. The chinese HD DVD players probably cannot be beaten that easyly.

So in the future when you go in a shop you will either find a cheap HD DVD player or a more expensive hybrid player.

Just my humble opinion.

First off, you're talking with a person who has a degree in Economics, so I am well aware of economies of scale.

For your argument, you are making huge assumptions that can not be validated by past trends. There is no data to suggest that consumers will begin mass adoption with the introduction of a moderately priced hybrid player (especially with $300 considered the golden point). There is also no data suggesting that a moderately priced hybrid player can even be built right now.

You are also ignoring economies of scale for the PS3 and other Blu-ray players. If .5M hybrid players can realize economies of scale, then surely 10M PS3s can do the same, only at a higher rate. Effectively, Sony could continue to drop the price point of the PS3 much faster than any other CE company could drop the price of their players, especially if they want to continue subsidizing that product.

And yet another AVS thread degenerates into the same old "Oh yeah, well BR is selling more!" thread... never mind that it's completely off-topic to the thread itself.

*sigh*

i am more tired of people claiming that hd-dvd is the choice of the customer. while it clearly shows at this point in time their has been more bluray discs sold then hd-dvd.

more discs sold = customer choice at that given point of time. how hard can this be to understand?

if hd-dvd sold more fine too. then hd-dvd would be customers choice, but as proven ,at this moment bluray is the customers choice.

That is a huge "what if" statement. If you can tell me how a player requiring two licenses and two lasers can cost less than a player with one license and one laser, then I might accept that possibility. Who said two lasers?

If you already have to focus to the middle for DVD compatibility, your only difference is the wavelength of light you focus there. A series of lenses can change the focal length of the source laser. And red lasers are commodity items now.

If the PS3 optics can play a DVD, they can propably be adjusted to read a HD DVD. Its a question of just wanting to do that. The encodings are similar and SoC solutions are available that handle both decoding logic. The video and codec licensing for one format would cost nothing more for the other format. Any additional licensing fees are notable and would be negligible compared to the Blu-ray players retail price point.

It will cost a little more, but cost may not be the issue, if Blu-ray stand alone players won;t be able to maintain their price premium.

If the actual cost is within $50 of hardware cost, then a dual HD player with a smaller margin, or $50 more in retail price might be far more marketable than a standalone Blu-ray player.

But this is moving beyond speculation and theory. We soon will be able to see the street pricing the market will bear on the dual Samsung player and the second generation LG dual HD player. That experiment will happen by the summer.

Why do we keep getting off the original point of subject threads trying to support our choice of format. Let's get back on topic and discuss how companies are trying to flee blu-ray's sinking ship. OK? :D

See, that's the part that confuses me. Why would Murdoch pair up with Sony?
It's worked well for both in the past? The single largest revenue generating TV show on Fox's network is really a Sony product.

Love to be a fly on the wall in some of these meeting - sounds like they aren't the least bit boring.

I couldn't agree with you more. I find myself logging into this website multiple times per day simply to see what the latest news is from both sides.

Same. Once all this stuff is either over with (one side eliminates the other) or irrelevant (dual format players become mainstream and affordable), we really need a documentary or film that digs in to what went on behind the scenes on all sides. Sort of like a "The Late Shift" for HD formats.

*sigh*

i am more tired of people claiming that hd-dvd is the choice of the customer. while it clearly shows at this point in time their has been more bluray discs sold then hd-dvd.

more discs sold = customer choice at that given point of time. how hard can this be to understand?

if hd-dvd sold more fine too. then hd-dvd would be customers choice, but as proven ,at this moment bluray is the customers choice.

excellent points!

if hd-dvd sold more fine too. then hd-dvd would be customers choice, but as proven ,at this moment bluray is the customers choice.
Yeah except that neither format adds up to more than "a fart in a windstorm" at the moment = there is no customer's choice. If anything at the moment customers choice would be DVD.

i meant the sales of discs given by nielsen data. 1.2 million blueray. 950.000 something by hd-dvd.

that simply proves that customers at that point of time bought more bluray then hd-dvd. whatelse is their to talk about? those are proven numbers. or am i not correct? never saw hd-dvd companies claiming those numbers were incorrect.


Given the number of PS3s sold, a 250K disc lead is pathetic. You need to consider that Toshiba has been directly giving away HD-DVDs with player purchases which do not count as sales, whereas the BDA has been running 50% off, buy-one-get-one-free and $10 coupons which all count as sales. Toshiba has in effect diluted its sales by giving away 200K+ discs that buyers may otherwise have purchased, whereas BDA has inflated its sales with it's heavily discounted promotions.

Given the number of PS3s sold, a 250K disc lead is pathetic. You need to consider that Toshiba has been directly giving away HD-DVDs with player purchases which do not count as sales, whereas the BDA has been running 50% off, buy-one-get-one-free and $10 coupons which all count as sales. Toshiba has in effect diluted its sales by giving away 200K+ discs that buyers may otherwise have purchased, whereas BDA has inflated its sales with it's heavily discounted promotions.

Hasn't Sony has given away 1 million blu-ray movies (500k of Talledega Nights and 500k Casino Royale), in effect diluted its sales much more....

excellent points!

more than 3mil BD players sold yet they reached the 1mil Blu-ray Disk (which might include PS3 gaming software and recordable media) sales 'milestone'. HD DVD has just more than 200K players sold and the amount of HD DVD MOVIE disk sales almost equal to BD's 1mil figure. It doesnt take a genius to know that consumers chose to buy HD DVD players and BD players are forced on gamers. But then you work for BB. end of story ;)

more than 3mil BD players sold yet they reached the 1mil Blu-ray Disk (which might include PS3 gaming software and recordable media) sales 'milestone'. HD DVD has just more than 200K players sold and the amount of HD DVD MOVIE disk sales almost equal to BD's 1mil figure. It doesnt take a genius to know that consumers chose to buy HD DVD players and BD players are forced on gamers. But then you work for BB. end of story ;)

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. I do not work for BB. As for forced, you are are way off base as well.

If you include PS3 gaming software the numbers are well above 1 million. I'm pretty sure Resistance sold more than 1 million by itself.

Though I'm not surprised that blu-ray destroyed HD-DVD's lead. End of story indeed :D

Man - I was hearing stuff about this and was just dying to see the story posted.

I would LOVE to know more about the contract they supposedly breached. And I'm sure the EU and other consumer affairs bodies should get a good read, too!

Very interesting.
Just what the EU is doing to ms.

And as much as I hate to say this, the next-gen format war has been more entertaining than any HD title on either format. The players involved, the spin, the behind-the-scenes backroom maneuvering, the hype, the passion aroused on internet chatrooms. I almost want the standoff between BD and HD-DVD to continue so my daily quota on non-stop fun doesn't dry up overnight! :p
you forgot those who are on the payroll of big companies trolling here and cheering for their horses and insulting each other or spreading misinformation about the other camp. You know who i'm talking about.

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. I do not work for BB.

Don't be bitter, BB is very selective about who they hire :D

Don't be bitter, BB is very selective about who they hire :D

What would I have to be bitter about? Nothing I said indicated any bitterness.

How do you know they are very selective in who they hire? Please elaborate.

edit: nevermind I just read some of your posting history :rolleyes:

Given the number of PS3s sold, a 250K disc lead is pathetic. You need to consider that Toshiba has been directly giving away HD-DVDs with player purchases which do not count as sales, whereas the BDA has been running 50% off, buy-one-get-one-free and $10 coupons which all count as sales. Toshiba has in effect diluted its sales by giving away 200K+ discs that buyers may otherwise have purchased, whereas BDA has inflated its sales with it's heavily discounted promotions.

Exactly.

All that current sales numbers show is that 1 out of 3 PS3 owners has bought a Blu Ray movie. Hardly a ringing "success" in my opinion, especially considering all the promotions, etc, that Sony and others have done to try to fluff their numbers.

As the HD DVD content draught ends and some "must have in HD" titles like Matrix make it to HD DVD months ahead of Blu Ray we will get a much better idea of which format is the "consumers choice".

If I was a studio and I saw the pathetic attachment rates of BR movies for the PS3 I would be pretty worried that BR is the new standard.

And those cheap HD players that were just a rumor, they seem to be getting a whole lot more tangible for delivery this year.

Regardless of which format "wins" (if that's even possible at this point) the war ain't over yet.

Given the number of PS3s sold, a 250K disc lead is pathetic. You need to consider that Toshiba has been directly giving away HD-DVDs with player purchases which do not count as sales, whereas the BDA has been running 50% off, buy-one-get-one-free and $10 coupons which all count as sales. Toshiba has in effect diluted its sales by giving away 200K+ discs that buyers may otherwise have purchased, whereas BDA has inflated its sales with it's heavily discounted promotions.

Just to clear up a few thing, you failed to mention the free discs the BDA gave away with the US and EU launch of PS3 thus "diluting there potential sales". It also appears as if you forgot to mention the Toshiba,Circuit City and Best Buy promotion giving away 4 discs per player that will count as sales thus allowing the HD promotions group to "inflate their disc sales".

Once all this stuff is either over with (one side eliminates the other) or irrelevant (dual format players become mainstream and affordable), we really need a documentary or film that digs in to what went on behind the scenes on all sides. Sort of like a "The Late Shift" for HD formats.

I was thinking more of an improved version of the 1990 HBO made-for-TV movie Barbarians at the Gate. The screenplay by Larry Gelbart (M*A*S*H* the TV series) chose to approach it like a comedy, in which the characters (all based on the real people involved in the 1988 takeover bid for Nabisco) make/say outrageous things but they don't know they're funny because they're just being true to the world of business they exist in. It's one of my favorite James Garner movies, and would like to see something similar done to this silly HD-DVD/Blu-ray (or DVD Forum/BDA) war. Because let's face it, if we take this as seriously as these CE's are we're in far deeper trouble as a people than they are. :o

more than 3mil BD players sold yet they reached the 1mil Blu-ray Disk (which might include PS3 gaming software and recordable media) sales 'milestone'. HD DVD has just more than 200K players sold and the amount of HD DVD MOVIE disk sales almost equal to BD's 1mil figure. It doesnt take a genius to know that consumers chose to buy HD DVD players and BD players are forced on gamers. But then you work for BB. end of story

I don't work at Best Buy, but I'm in the local store 2 days a week as a market rep for another line of product. I keep pretty close ties with the managers and HT staff, and there have been a number of times HD DVD players have sold out, and HD DVD consistently outsells Blu Ray all the time.

One doesn't have to work for Best Buy to see the writing on the wall.

Just to clear up a few thing, you failed to mention the free discs the BDA gave away with the US and EU launch of PS3 thus "diluting there potential sales". It also appears as if you forgot to mention the Toshiba,Circuit City and Best Buy promotion giving away 4 discs per player that will count as sales thus allowing the HD promotions group to "inflate their disc sales".

Exactly. Convenient isn't it :p

rjdam what are customers chosing?

.
.
.most people dont understand the japanese culture, or chinese or corean. i have lived in corea, in china and in Japan. and if you think it is just business you are very much mistaken.


if you lived in Korea, you'd probably have known how to spell it correctly.... :)

just my observation

Blu-ray stalwart Panasonic brutalized LG for its combo at the latest DVD Forum Steering Committee meeting, we're told. From transcripts we've seen, Panasonic accused LG of breach of contract for offering a combo player, and said it should be censured for doing so. LG blithely thanked Panasonic for bringing publicity to its combo -- and said its lawyers would respond. In what seemed an exchange of spite, LG split ranks with its Blu-ray compatriots by voting in favor of all HD DVD measures before the SC -- rather than abstaining, as the pragmatic Korean companies usually had.

The Dvd Forum has approved HD DVD as the standard for Hi Definition. :eek:

Voting Members that have conflicting interests that compete directly against the forum standards should have enough integrity to resign and step down.

The beguiling farce of remaining a forum member while working against it is counterproductive to the forum and its members.

Just by remaining as a voting member and abstaining from its voting - impedes, delays and influences its results undermines the progress and advancement of the format.

It is preposterous that these malignant members are even allowed to remain in there positions within the Forum let alone now these shameless forsworn DVD Forum member(s) are unscrupulously dissenting to publicly threats and intimidation of other DVD Forum members for supporting a product that uses the standard approved by the DVD Forum.

Wow, the strong-arm tactics used by these BR guys stretch even further then I thought. To be arrogant enough to sit right in a DVD Forum meeting and try to publicly pressure and intimidate one of its members right in front of all the other loyal members of the DVD Forum is astonishing.

I wonder how much clout these guys really got, is it that much that Blu-ray companies will continue to sit right in the middle of meetings for HD DVD and continue to obstruct the progression of the format so that Blu-ray wins or will common sense ever prevail and a separate forum of only supporting members will be created.

Time will tell…

It seems to me that any attempt to force compliance with exclusive contracts could expose those companies to some antitrust scrutiny. I think Panasonic should just bite the bullet on this one. No contract should compel Samsung or LG to do what is not in their economic best interest. Moreover, if the agreement included any kinds of subsidies or payments, then it would not be in the best interest of any Blu-ray member to make this public.

And yet another AVS thread degenerates into the same old "Oh yeah, well BR is selling more!" thread... never mind that it's completely off-topic to the thread itself.

*sigh*

i am more tired of people claiming that hd-dvd is the choice of the customer. while it clearly shows at this point in time their has been more bluray discs sold then hd-dvd.

more discs sold = customer choice at that given point of time. how hard can this be to understand?

if hd-dvd sold more fine too. then hd-dvd would be customers choice, but as proven ,at this moment bluray is the customers choice.

*sigh*

Not entirely true

The number one driving force for BD right now is the PS3...thats fine I guess but I wouldn't whole heartedly be convinced that a console will drive a Next gen format.

Yeah, BD has sold more discs....but by how much? last I checked BD was just over a mil and HD DVD was just under a mil.

On to your point about consumer choice and what not. More discs sold does not equal consumer choice. Like I said, BD is being driven by the PS3 right now. There is a "curiosity" factor that goes along with that. many people will be just trying out discs.

Console owners past a certain percentage cannot be relied upon to buy discs at a continued pace as a standalone player. Those are just the facts. PS3 owners buy BD discs not because they only support BD or they only bought the PS3 because of BD , its because BD is their only choice(SD DVD aside). Its like saying people prefer gas powered cars over electric cars because of gasoline sales.

IF BD wins because of the PS3, I have not quams with that what so ever. I would consider it a genius move by Sony. But if you are going to agrue Consumer choice than is not fair to say that HD DVD stand alones are the cosumers choice rather than BD stand alones because more have sold?

Yeah, BD has sold more discs....but by how much? and for how long?

I don't work at Best Buy, but I'm in the local store 2 days a week as a market rep for another line of product. I keep pretty close ties with the managers and HT staff, and there have been a number of times HD DVD players have sold out, and HD DVD consistently outsells Blu Ray all the time.

One doesn't have to work for Best Buy to see the writing on the wall.


Well, then it's against the odds if you go to a Milwaukee Best Buy. I was looking for a Seagate Hard Drive this weekend which too me to several BB, and the three I went to all had BD front and center, with HD DVD off in the back usually, not even running.

I asked the girl in the HDM department where the HD-DVD players were and she said "There's only one player and one company making them." Even the display model was missing at this BB, but there were A2s below where it should have been. She led me over to a set and player and started Corpse Bride and said "There, that's HD DVD, find me if you have any questions."

Thanks :rolleyes:

What I was really struck by was the nutty prices on both formats disks, I had a $5 coupon, but didn't bother when the math told me I'd break even at Amazon without a coupon. They really are not the place to go anymore (and I never found the Seagate either :mad: )

It seems to me that any attempt to force compliance with exclusive contracts could expose those companies to some antitrust scrutiny. I think Panasonic should just bite the bullet on this one. No contract should compel Samsung or LG to do what is not in their economic best interest. Moreover, if the agreement included any kinds of subsidies or payments, then it would not be in the best interest of any Blu-ray member to make this public.

Astonishing that companies sitting in the DVD Forum are trying to enforce contracts in the middle of a DVD Forum meeting with other companies to not support a standard that was approved by the DVD Forum. :eek:

It amazes me that they stay on the forum if they dont want to support what they had agreed upon. :(

I guess the thread concerning blu ray acting like a "cartel" is about right. Bullying its members. Sounds like they're feeling the heat.

Just to clear up a few thing, you failed to mention the free discs the BDA gave away with the US and EU launch of PS3 thus "diluting there potential sales". It also appears as if you forgot to mention the Toshiba,Circuit City and Best Buy promotion giving away 4 discs per player that will count as sales thus allowing the HD promotions group to "inflate their disc sales".

The in store give-aways at BB & CC ran for a much shorter period than the BDA sales promos, but you are correct they did influence sales somewhat. I guess, Toshiba is starting to learn from the competition. As far as the BD's given away with the PS3s, considering the low attachment rate for the PS3, I doubt it affected sales much at all.

The in store give-aways at BB & CC ran for a much shorter period than the BDA sales promos, but you are correct they did influence sales somewhat. I guess, Toshiba is starting to learn from the competition. As far as the BD's given away with the PS3s, considering the low attachment rate for the PS3, I doubt it affected sales much at all.

I recall reading articles where Toshiba wanted to include a HD-DVD drive in every 360 (would have been sweet!) , however MS obviously didn't take that route. Not sure if Toshiba got the idea from Sony or not though.

I recall reading articles where Toshiba wanted to include a HD-DVD drive in every 360 (would have been sweet!) , however MS obviously didn't take that route. Not sure if Toshiba got the idea from Sony or not though.

All MS really cares about in the end is the adoption of VC1 as the next gen video codec of choice for HD material.

As far as MS is concerned (in my opinion) HD and BR could both fail and they would be happy.

Because MS plans on being a big media player with direct HD downloads to Windows Media Center and associated Extenders (like the Xbox 360).

All MS really cares about in the end is the adoption of VC1 as the next gen video codec of choice for HD material.

As far as MS is concerned (in my opinion) HD and BR could both fail and they would be happy.Because MS plans on being a big media player with direct HD downloads to Windows Media Center and associated Extenders (like the Xbox 360).

I believe you are dead on...

again. 3 million consoles sold or 100 billion consoles sold. it all doesnt matter.

even if sales for bluray are slow or whatever. fact is and i say it again. at this moment of time bluray is the customers choice. has nothing to do with format you favor.

it is plain old cold fact. maybe i am bit harsh for some people. but just lets get this fact straight. even if bluray only sold 1 more disc then hd-dvd ,then it is still the customers choice. will this maybe change in future could be. but at this moment it aint.

and about corea. i type here corea on purpose. do some history checking and you understand :)

OMG... well, this article just pushed me over the edge to not purchase anything named "Panasonic" in the future. It's too bad too, they do build quality products but chastising a company for not falling inline with Sony's cartel is ridiculous.

I would like to personally thank LG and Samsung for breaking rank and giving consumers a choice.

You guys lost me after the second post. :D

Anyways, I just hope you guys don't take this format war to heart because the Chinese will rule Hi-Def soon. :p

As far as MS is concerned (in my opinion) HD and BR could both fail and they would be happy.

Because MS plans on being a big media player with direct HD downloads to Windows Media Center and associated Extenders (like the Xbox 360).
I would strengthen this statement even further. MS' strategy may well be to try and ensure the failure of both in order to delay adoption until a rich HD download capability is in place.

I read an article in EE Times back when MS threw their hat behind HD DVD that stated their (EE Times) belief that this was MS' goal. BD had the momentum until MS sided with HD DVD. The article argued that MS would be the biggest winner in a downloaded movie market and wanted to stave off a clear winner emerging in the evolution of shiny disks to HD content.

That, and of course, the arch rivalry between them in the game console wars....

Ken

I would strengthen this statement even further. MS' strategy may well be to try and ensure the failure of both in order to delay adoption until a rich HD download capability is in place.

I read an article in EE Times back when MS threw their hat behind HD DVD that stated their (EE Times) belief that this was MS' goal. BD had the momentum until MS sided with HD DVD. The article argued that MS would be the biggest winner in a downloaded movie market and wanted to stave off a clear winner emerging in the evolution of shiny disks to HD content.

That, and of course, the arch rivalry between them in the game console wars....

Ken

exactly

I would strengthen this statement even further. MS' strategy may well be to try and ensure the failure of both in order to delay adoption until a rich HD download capability is in place.

I read an article in EE Times back when MS threw their hat behind HD DVD that stated their (EE Times) belief that this was MS' goal. BD had the momentum until MS sided with HD DVD. The article argued that MS would be the biggest winner in a downloaded movie market and wanted to stave off a clear winner emerging in the evolution of shiny disks to HD content.

That, and of course, the arch rivalry between them in the game console wars....

Ken

Microsoft developed the interactivity layer for HD DVD, and one of the three codecs used by both camps. It works tireless to ensure compatibility. It at least help develop the specs. These are very odd behavior for a company wanting to destroy these formats.

I know it's always tempting to believe in conspiracy theories. Even more so if you happen to have sided with a company that MS is against. But what you are saying would make MS the best corporation in the country. They would be the only ones willing to spend millions of dollars now for no short term gain. Instead of looking at the next quarterly financial statements, your accusing them of sticking there necks out for a possible advantage that won't materialise for years. I don't think that is realistic.

I think it's much more likely that they want HD DVD to win because it is more computer friendly. Their vision is to have computer servers distribute video throughout the house. BD+ may effect that. The high bandwidth requirements may effect that. The increased storage requirements may effect that.

Further, HD DVD picked HDi as it's interactivity layer. BD rejected it. Why would MS support the format that didn't choose it's technology over one that did? You'll find most of the other corporations on both sides of this are doing the same type of thing.

So while I'm sure MS is eagerly awaiting the age of downloadable content, I think it is a mistake to think they are going through all this effort to try and delay the acceptance of HD optical video. They want HD DVD to win for some vary obvious reasons.

The real winner in this format war is our own Amir!

Think about it - with all these juicy stories of political tensions and backroom deals/drama, his forthcoming book on the format war is bound to be a bestseller :P

MS is here "to make sure HD DVD doesn't go away". Read that again. It was a rare case of in panel veritas. ;)

They would be the only ones willing to spend millions of dollars now for no short term gain. Instead of looking at the next quarterly financial statements, your accusing them of sticking there necks out for a possible advantage that won't materialise for years. I don't think that is realistic.

This is exactly what MS IS doing in the console business, this is what Sony is doing with the PS3 as well.

I believe Amir said that MS would have stayed neutral if the BDA would have chosen HDi over BD-J.

I believe Amir said that MS would have stayed neutral if the BDA would have chosen HDi over BD-J.

Business Week suggested it was because MS wanted Blu-ray to drop BD+.

This is exactly what MS IS doing in the console business, this is what Sony is doing with the PS3 as well.

Those are fairly conventional tactics in the console business, and ones which analyst can account for. They won't take stock hits for investments in consoles because they're losing money at the begining of a products life cycle.


Yet here, what you are saying is that they are spending all this money for no immediate gain, and probably very little long term gain.

Isn't it simplier just to believe that HD DVD is better for MS than BD, and that's why it supports it? They don't need an abstract reason. HDi, easier to stream, they don't have to worry about BD+...

Business Week suggested it was because MS wanted Blu-ray to drop BD+.

I remember something about that as well....and both of those are legitimate reasons for MS to support HD DVD. One doesn't have to resort to the conspiracy theory unless he or she is predisposed to not like MS. There are plenty of rational reasons why HD DVD are better for MS than BD.

Yeah that side would be interesting also. More importantly, I'd love to read Amir's book if he's serious about it. The backroom politics that have and are taking place in this war could be entertaining beyond belief.

At the end of the day, I just wanna be entertained :)


Maybe they'll make a movie out of the story. I wonder wherther it would be Blu-Ray or HD DVD? :D :D

Cheers,

Grant

easier to stream

oh, that takes me back to... this time last year? Remember the passionate debate on Mandatory Managed Copy? Where is the final AACS license agreement? Where is the M in MMC?

:rolleyes:

Further, HD DVD picked HDi as it's interactivity layer. BD rejected it. Be aware that the BDA working group voted in favor of HDi. It was the BDA suits (likely pursuaded by politics) that overruled the working group in favor of BD-J.

My own speculation is that Sony had a strong hand in rejecting HDi. The Xbox 360 was about to launch at the time and Sony was becomming increasingly angry with Microsoft. It is these type of knee jerk decisions that Sony has made in the past that have always been the downfall of their proprietary products. Had Sony sucked up their frustration about the console battle and gone with HDi, Microsoft wouldn't have chosen sides and Blu-Ray would be fully functional except for decoding next generation audio codecs. Ultimately they would be in a much better position at current time. Only time will tell if Sony's own arrogance once again becomes their downfall.

oh, that takes me back to... this time last year? Remember the passionate debate on Mandatory Managed Copy? Where is the final AACS license agreement? Where is the M in MMC?

:rolleyes:


It went quietly into the night.

It was the BDA suits (likely pursuaded by politics) that overruled the working group in favor of BD-J.

Not coincidentally, you can spot a few people on these forums who work for Sun Microsystems (BD-J) openly pushing Blu Ray. Some Microsoft employees are doing the same for HD DVD, but they usually state that they work for Microsoft in their signatures.

Regarding Panasonic, this news does nothing to endear them to me as a company. I am also offended thay they would try and openly call out another CE for breaking ranks, and will think hard before I ever support them or any other company so deeply involved with the BDA shoveling.

Yeah generally I like Panasonic but they aren't irreplaceable.

I shall dub them Panicsonic

In a lot of ways Warren Lieberfarb's point about the BDA cartel does seem to ring true. Even the Blu-ray fanatics love to toss studio exclusivity in HD DVD owners faces. I'm all for a nice battle but come'on man play from a square deck if you want to brag.

Who would buy a Goldstar player, that stuff is just Junk, IMO.

Be aware that the BDA working group voted in favor of HDi. It was the BDA suits (likely pursuaded by politics) that overruled the working group in favor of BD-J.

My own speculation is that Sony had a strong hand in rejecting HDi. The Xbox 360 was about to launch at the time and Sony was becomming increasingly angry with Microsoft. It is these type of knee jerk decisions that Sony has made in the past that have always been the downfall of their proprietary products. Had Sony sucked up their frustration about the console battle and gone with HDi, Microsoft wouldn't have chosen sides and Blu-Ray would be fully functional except for decoding next generation audio codecs. Ultimately they would be in a much better position at current time. Only time will tell if Sony's own arrogance once again becomes their downfall.Offtopic, but Java is far more prevalent than HDi crap in the consumer electronics space.

How eloquent.

Offtopic, but Java is far more prevalent than HDi crap in the consumer electronics space.Both do the intended job just fine. I did hear one reason for BD preferring BD-J over HDi was that DVB (which many of the BD companies are involved in) also uses Java, so they wanted to leverage that experience.

No disrespect to Sun Microsystems but Java is getting old.

The Java apps I run make me cringe when I have to fire them up. The performance just isn't there.

HDi seems more like Ajax like hotness. I can't wait until there are some mature HDi authoring packages. I think Blu-ray whiffed big on choosing Java. But Sun still rocks (ZFS baby)

Offtopic, but Java is far more prevalent than HDi crap in the consumer electronics space.
Don't get me wrong... I have no problem with Java. In fact I was web designer back in 1996 and sided strongly with Netscape and Sun. But we aren't talking about video games on cell phones. For this specific application, HDi is more complete and polished at this point in time than BD-J, and Blu-Ray has felt some of the impact of that fact. I don't blame Java either, I blame BDA for allowing deadline extensions and changes to the standard.

Business Week suggested it was because MS wanted Blu-ray to drop BD+.
That would be great had BDA agreed. Few DRM is a good thing, at least for consumers. I doubt BD+ is going to stop hackers anyway.

MS is here "to make sure HD DVD doesn't go away". Read that again. It was a rare case of in panel veritas. ;)
One can say Sony's here to make sure BR does not go away. In fact, it did just that. BR would be no match to HD DVD without PS3 :)

Again, I found it pointless to assign blames. These are for PROFIT companies and would do whatever they think to maximize profits, laws (sometimes) and ethics (a lot of times) be damned :mad:

The Java apps I run make me cringe when I have to fire them up. The performance just isn't there.
Yeah - neither is the reliability........the old "cross your fingers & hope" java prayer.

and toss in Sun = eeeeewwww, ick :D

if you lived in Korea, you'd probably have known how to spell it correctly....

just my observation

who knows, Korea is spelled in English with a K but some other languages it is with a C

So when do we get to hear about Panasonic's comments to Samsung?

Not coincidentally, you can spot a few people on these forums who work for Sun Microsystems (BD-J) openly pushing Blu Ray. Some Microsoft employees are doing the same for HD DVD, but they usually state that they work for Microsoft in their signatures.

Regarding Panasonic, this news does nothing to endear them to me as a company. I am also offended thay they would try and openly call out another CE for breaking ranks, and will think hard before I ever support them or any other company so deeply involved with the BDA shoveling.

Blu-ray: Beyond Cartel's

Not only does this guy feel the need to threaten this company to stay loyal to Blu-ray,

he does while acting as a voting member of the DVDForum

where he is profiting by working against the Forum approved format

while threating this other company and calling them disloyal during a Forum meeting

for supporting the format that was approved by the DVD Forum.

The number one driving force for BD right now is the PS3...thats fine I guess but I wouldn't whole heartedly be convinced that a console will drive a Next gen format.


it does not need to, but it will be the driving force for the next 2-4 years, it takes tme before a new A/V format takes off while game consoles are fast. Eventually standalones will catch up but what we need now is something to boos t the numbers so that J6P can start asking himself "should I look at this"

Yeah, BD has sold more discs....but by how much? last I checked BD was just over a mil and HD DVD was just under a mil.

last I checked it was around 1.2M to .9M, .3M is not bad for a format that is 9month old compared to one that is 12.


On to your point about consumer choice and what not. More discs sold does not equal consumer choice. Like I said, BD is being driven by the PS3 right now. There is a "curiosity" factor that goes along with that. many people will be just trying out discs.



so you think people that go HD can go back to SD even though they have an HD player?

IF BD wins because of the PS3, I have not quams with that what so ever. I would consider it a genius move by Sony. But if you are going to agrue Consumer choice than is not fair to say that HD DVD stand alones are the cosumers choice rather than BD stand alones because more have sold?

why not? people chose to buy the PS3 Or any other player, they chose to buy movies as well, where is there not a choice here?

I would strengthen this statement even further. MS' strategy may well be to try and ensure the failure of both in order to delay adoption until a rich HD download capability is in place.

I read an article in EE Times back when MS threw their hat behind HD DVD that stated their (EE Times) belief that this was MS' goal. BD had the momentum until MS sided with HD DVD. The article argued that MS would be the biggest winner in a downloaded movie market and wanted to stave off a clear winner emerging in the evolution of shiny disks to HD content.

That, and of course, the arch rivalry between them in the game console wars....

Ken

Good attempt. Try again its not working!! :D

MS knows physical movie media WILL not go away!!

No disrespect to Sun Microsystems but Java is getting old.

The Java apps I run make me cringe when I have to fire them up. The performance just isn't there.

HDi seems more like Ajax like hotness. I can't wait until there are some mature HDi authoring packages. I think Blu-ray whiffed big on choosing Java. But Sun still rocks (ZFS baby)

I'd have to agree here, I was never thrilled with Java. Like today it always just seem uncompleted as far as limitations and performance.

I cant really say anything about HDi one way or the other but I do program in .Net for a career. If I had to compare .Net & Java, it wouldnt even be in the same ballpark so I'm assuming HDi is slimmed down like a vbscript or something like that?

BTW I've been referring to HDi as HDDVD.net in a few posts for laughs, so far no one has called me on it or even asked what the hell I was talking about.

hmurchison if you have programmed in HDi, can I PM you with some questions.

last I checked it was around 1.2M to .9M, .3M is not bad for a format that is 9month old compared to one that is 12.

Yeah, but not so impressive for a format that has 10x the number of players out there.

Good attempt. Try again its not working!! :D

MS knows physical movie media WILL not go away!!
I have found many of the points made here to be convincing in the many ways that MS has supported as well as benefited from their HD DVD involvement. The old EE Times article (from back in 2005, I think) has stuck with me though, and watching as MS has rolled out movies on the 360 (I have one of those, as well as a Wii -- no PS3, though) I could see how they would get even higher revenue from a rental/purchase model.

I retract my suggestion. Thanks to all who have responded with good points on MS behaviors that do not support such a theory.

You may now return to bashing BD! ;)

Yeah, but not so impressive for a format that has 10x the number of players out there.

But everyone knows that the majority of those 10x players are consoles and hence cannot have the same expected attach rate as a standalone player.

As far as I am concerned, it doesn't matter how its achieved, the important thing is which has greater disk sales overall.

But everyone knows that the majority of those 10x players are consoles and hence cannot have the same expected attach rate as a standalone player.

As far as I am concerned, it doesn't matter how its achieved, the important thing is which has greater disk sales overall.

BDA use EVERY SINGLE console 'shipped' as BD player sales. Remember 6mil BD players by march 2007 that was feed to the world? Therefor it is ONLY fair to take EVERY SINGLE console 'shipment' in computing the attach rate of BD :D :D


You may now return to bashing BD!

:D :D :D

But everyone knows that the majority of those 10x players are consoles and hence cannot have the same expected attach rate as a standalone player.

As far as I am concerned, it doesn't matter how its achieved, the important thing is which has greater disk sales overall.

2 problems with that statments

if all you want is to look at the overall number then know that both formats overall has sold almost exactly the same, BR has sold slightly more by 2,000 titles.
HD-DVD Movie Sales Only 2k Behind Blu-ray (http://gear.ign.com/articles/783/783545p1.html)

As for attach rate, that a bit more detail and a good indicator of things to come. Such as if BR has 4 million players out right now including PS3 and all standalones and HD DVD only has 100 thousand players. Thats a 40:1 ration in favor of BR

Now even though there are 40 more players for every 1 HD player, sales are almost identical even though its a real crappy attach rate for BR but ya can count the 2k discs for BR if ya want for your overall sales victory.

But what I'd like to speculate at, is what happens when walmart all of a sudden sells 2 million HD DVD players for $300 this year?

Now you would have to sell 80 million PS3 players this year just to keep that 40:1 hardware ratio. Thats alotta PS3's for Sony to sell at a loss just to stay even with HD.

Now that we added the chinese 2 million players for 2007, now lets add the 3 million Toshiba players into the mix now. So now there would be 5 million HD players and for the same sales ratio to break even Sony would need to sell 200 million PS3's this year, now that would be something..

Oh btw heres a couple links :

Wal-Mart Orders Two Million Cheap HD DVD Players (http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/multimedia/display/20070425132243.html)

Toshiba to sell 3 million HD DVD players in fiscal 2007 (http://www.abcmoney.co.uk/news/25200761977.htm)

Yeah, but not so impressive for a format that has 10x the number of players out there.

I would be interested to see how you get to 10x.

on the other hand it is, because until late last year there were not more players. In Jan it was 2:1 disk sales in March 3:1 the lead is just growing.

Who would buy a Goldstar player, that stuff is just Junk, IMO.
It's fortunate that its just your opinion, because I love my Apple Cinema Display widescreen LCD monitor and my wife loves her Chocolate phone, both from LG.

I would be interested to see how you get to 10x.
I was very roughly assuming the following:
BD:
PS3 - 3 million
Standalones - doesn't matter - less than 100K it is noise.

HD DVD:
Standalones - 100,000
Xbox 360 add-ons - 200,000

So, 3M to 300K = 10X.

Might be off, but that is what was in my head....

In all likelihood this is just coincidence but it's interesting how both major CEs which have broken ranks from BD exclusivity are Korean, and not Japanese companies.

I'm sure that LG and Samsung knew that they would get major heat from the other BD only companies, but perhaps they took some comfort in knowing of each other's plans ahead of time "if you produce a duo player so will we" ?
doesnt matter,the bottom line is making money,if anybody breaks ranks thats the reason,maybe sammy and lg see more money in hd then bd,who really knows until theses companys say it themselves!

Blu Ray easily has a 10:1 lead in installed player base at this point. The fact that they don't have anywhere near a 10:1 lead in software sales is a strong indicator that Sony's BD-PS3 gamble is not going to pay off. What Sony does have though is a combined attach rate of less than 1 movie per player. It's really close to 1 movie / 3 players. That's hardly anything to get excited about. All that Sony has succeeding in doing up to this point is losing their shareholders a great deal of money.

A 10:1 ratio is fair estimate. I had been guessing 9:1 myself:

3+ million PS3s (plus a few standalones)
350000 HD DVD players.

Remember, the 100000 HD DVD number is for only US standalones, not worldwide (and as you know doesn't include the Xbox 360 add-on).

Yeah, the 0.4 movies per PS3 sold is down right pathetic.
It's roughly 3 movies per HD DVD player sold, if my unit sales estimate is in the right ballpark.

2 problems with that statments

if all you want is to look at the overall number then know that both formats overall has sold almost exactly the same, BR has sold slightly more by 2,000 titles.
HD-DVD Movie Sales Only 2k Behind Blu-ray (http://gear.ign.com/articles/783/783545p1.html)

Considering HD-DVD had a massive head start, and that the current ratio is in the order of 2:1 to 4:1 in BDs favour, that link doesn't suddenly doesn't sound so good anymore.


But what I'd like to speculate at, is what happens when walmart all of a sudden sells 2 million HD DVD players for $300 this year?

What would happen? Probably BD would be in a whole lot of trouble, and I'd buy a HD-DVD player. I'd be p*ssed at the limitations and flippers though ;)


Oh btw heres a couple links :

Wal-Mart Orders Two Million Cheap HD DVD Players (http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/multimedia/display/20070425132243.html)

Toshiba to sell 3 million HD DVD players in fiscal 2007 (http://www.abcmoney.co.uk/news/25200761977.htm)

Don't worry I've read all the FUD/speculation links, I prefer to consider proven facts than leaked translated retracted speculation or crystal ball press releases from either side.

Considering HD-DVD had a massive head start, and that the current ratio is in the order of 2:1 to 4:1 in BDs favour, that link doesn't suddenly doesn't sound so good anymore.
The ratio was 2.3:1 in Q1, and that was in a quarter when there were very few HD DVD releases.

A 10:1 ratio is fair estimate. I had been guessing 9:1 myself:

3+ million PS3s (plus a few standalones)
350000 HD DVD players.

Remember, the 100000 HD DVD number is for only US standalones, not worldwide (and as you know doesn't include the Xbox 360 add-on).

Yeah, the 0.4 movies per PS3 sold is down right pathetic.
It's roughly 3 movies per HD DVD player sold, if my unit sales estimate is in the right ballpark.

If you're using world wide numbers for BD shouldn't you also use world wide numbers for HD DVD and also for software?

If you're using world wide numbers for BD shouldn't you also use world wide numbers for HD DVD and also for software?
My numbers for BD and HD are worldwide.

I was under the impression that the 1.2 million number of discs sold for BD and the 998000 number sold for HD is also worldwide, but correct me if I'm wrong.

My numbers for BD and HD are worldwide.

I was under the impression that the 1.2 million number of discs sold for BD and the 998000 number sold for HD is also worldwide, but correct me if I'm wrong.

I have no idea on the software sales...I do see you were talking world wide...please forgive my reading comprehension...2 hours of forced American Idol watching will do that to you... :)

I was under the impression that the 1.2 million number of discs sold for BD and the 998000 number sold for HD is also worldwide, but correct me if I'm wrong.


no US

Considering HD-DVD had a massive head start, and that the current ratio is in the order of 2:1 to 4:1 in BDs favour, that link doesn't suddenlyHD-DVD had a massive head start???? :confused: What head start? Didn't the formats release about the same time? Or are you talking about the "hidef war not starting until Sony says so"? Yeah, HD-DVD had a big head start when it was the consumers choice, then Sony said "Let the war begin" and released the PS3 and gave away a title with it they counted towards their total sales giving them a 1 movie attach rate. The head start is actually right now since the neutral studios are just beginning to realize Blu-Rays deficiencies.

At the end of the day, I just wanna be entertained :)

Oh we're going to be entertained allright... :) Wait until Q4, it's going to be humongous.

if all you want is to look at the overall number then know that both formats overall has sold almost exactly the same, BR has sold slightly more by 2,000 titles.
HD-DVD Movie Sales Only 2k Behind Blu-ray (http://gear.ign.com/articles/783/783545p1.html)As I've mentioned elsewhere, that 2k was an incorrect assumption based on what the marketing email said. It didn't say the sales for each were within 2k, but somebody at IGN seemed to interpret it that way. They were comparing apples to oranges to get within 2k and I thought they made that clear enough. I guess maybe not since somebody at IGN didn't seem to comprehend it.
But what I'd like to speculate at, is what happens when walmart all of a sudden sells 2 million HD DVD players for $300 this year?I don't think there is any way that they could sell 2 million at $300 this year and the original report didn't claim 2 million this year, so why are you? The HD-D1s don't seem to have sold that well even though some have been discounted heavily. At $199 for HD DVD or $299 for combo players I think Wal-mart could sell quite a few, but we don't need to exagerate what was said.

I hope you'll stop with the 40:1 misinformation and also consider how long players have been in the market and other things, because your conclusions aren't valid without that.

--Darin

Everybody:

Do not say what you believe to be false.

I don't think there is any way that they could sell 2 million at $300 this year and the original report didn't claim 2 million this year, so why are you? The HD-D1s don't seem to have sold that well even though some have been discounted heavily. At $199 for HD DVD or $299 for combo players I think Wal-mart could sell quite a few, but we don't need to exaggerate what was said.

The order is for 2 million through end of 2008. Let's say they start selling in Q4 thats 15 total months or about 130K units per month. So now it won't all be in one year but 130K units picking ea month even if they only buy 2-3 movies this year could easily results in some big #s. This is simply a magnitude greater than any HD player sales to date.

Now the PS3 sells in higher # but we all have seen how poor it's attach rate is. The actual attach rate would be <0.4 because we have to assume the higher end BD players have a higher attach rate. So if the standalone players have an attach rate similar to HD DVD then likely the PS3 is somewhere in the 1 movie for each 3 or 4 players.

About the price. The initial batch will be $299 to generate a percieved value and also because you can't legally have a sale if it never sold at a higher price. I expect most of units will sell in the $199-$249 range. Remember Wallmart cut prices on HDTV massively last November. TVs everyone else was charging $1400-$1500 for (even online $1200+) Wallmart rolled out at everyday low prices of $989. Wallmart business model does not involve trying to get full retail and having units sit on the shelf. This fall I expect Wallmart to have another $989 deal except this one will include and HDTV and an HD DVD player.

HD-DVD had a massive head start???? :confused: What head start? Didn't the formats release about the same time? Or are you talking about the "hidef war not starting until Sony says so"? Yeah, HD-DVD had a big head start when it was the consumers choice, then Sony said "Let the war begin" and released the PS3 and gave away a title with it they counted towards their total sales giving them a 1 movie attach rate. The head start is actually right now since the neutral studios are just beginning to realize Blu-Rays deficiencies.

HD-DVD launched in April. BD had one buggy Sammy player, and no other players (and no PS3) until November. BD movie sales skyrocketed when the PS3 was released. A solid 6 month head start for HD-DVD.

Lets not get into the free movie crap again, thats been debated endlessly (not to mention Tosh giving away 4 free disks, but you'll claim that didn't count, or whatever, I give up.)

HD-DVD launched in April. BD had one buggy Sammy player, and no other players (and no PS3) until November. BD movie sales skyrocketed when the PS3 was released. A solid 6 month head start for HD-DVD.


HD DVD had only two players, A1 and XA1. Then two months later came the Sammy. Not 6 months later, 2 months later. The fact that it was "buggy," that the titles were horrible, and there weren't a lot of sales doesn't mean the format didn't exist. It clearly did. (See Grubert's large words of advice three posts above)

If there's one thing coming out of those meetings, it's that LG nor Samsung will take crap saying "thanks". Tensions among the BDA members ? Great news for BR.

HD DVD had only two players, A1 and XA1. Then two months later came the Sammy. Not 6 months later, 2 months later. The fact that it was "buggy," that the titles were horrible, and there weren't a lot of sales doesn't mean the format didn't exist. It clearly did. (See Grubert's large words of advice three posts above)

All of it true. I would only add the detail that entry price for BD was twice that for HD DVD. ;)

All of it true. I would only add the detail that entry price for BD was twice that for HD DVD. ;)

Funny enough a year later it still is.
HD-A2 = ~$300. PS3 =~$600

If there's one thing coming out of those meetings, it's that LG nor Samsung will take crap saying "thanks".
Kind of nice to see ain't it? :)

I guess the Japanese companies are having a tough time swallowing the fact that the Korean companies are no longer under their thumb. They become big enough to tell them to kiss off.

I'm liking Samsung & LG more all the time :D

No disrespect to Sun Microsystems but Java is getting old.

The Java apps I run make me cringe when I have to fire them up. The performance just isn't there.


The problem is client side Java. The performance was never and will never be there for client side Java. On top of that, you have compatibility problems by pushing out a Java app to different client side JVMs. It becomes "code once, test everywhere" instead of "code once run anywhere".

Java on the server side is great. You deploy to one JVM and the performance isn't bad. This is where the vast, VAST majority of Java work is being done.

So why did Blu-ray choose to use Java in a client side scenario? I'd agree, it was a bad move.

I think it is about time we see some political tension showing in the BD camp. I expected it to happen sooner than now, but I welcome it.

In "unrelated" news, Hitachi has claimed LG has infringed its Plasma patents.

It becomes "code once, test everywhere" instead of "code once run anywhere".
Yeah but that's not what Sun said :D they said the later.

All of it true. I would only add the detail that entry price for BD was twice that for HD DVD. ;)

Price wasn't the point, mere existance was. ;)

Funny enough a year later it still is.
HD-A2 = ~$300. PS3 =~$600


LOL. :D

I've lived here in Korea for years. Let me add some interesting insight...

Despite Samsung and LG selling BR players for quite some time (the same models you can buy in the USA) the are still priced in the $1,200 range. For example that's including the older Samsung BD-P1000 model (no 1200 here yet, despite being made here). Nothing is cheaper. The PS-3 is not sold here either, unless you buy it from an importer who snuck it in luggage from Japan. That's how I bought mine (price comes out to equal USA price, roughly). I hear the PS-3 won't even be introduced here until the Fall. Could be that Samsung/LG are pulling strings and not allowing it into the country because it undercuts their outrageous prices and gives an unfair advantage to BR (thus eroding negotiating leverage -- see below).

You can buy their dual-format players for about the same price as a single format BR player... no brainer on what anyone would buy, eh?

We also have about 10 to 15 Blu-ray disks available. Casino Royale is the biggest name. No pre-orders on anything that I've seen. That's it. I have to import the rest of mine from Amazon (with no Korean subs, so they're not useful for my girlfriend).

If Samsung were such a big supporter of Blu-ray, we'd have A LOT more disks available, I assure you. We'd also have cheaper players.

Samsung and LG are chaebols. The people who run the chaebols also run this country. South Korea is not a true Democracy yet. If Samsung wanted to support Blu-ray, we'd have it everywhere, as happens with everything else Samsung introduces. Soon after that, every other company here would be making it.

We've had Blu-ray for months now, but players are still priced double what they are in the USA -- despite being the exact same model, and made here in Korea.

They are waiting on something.

If Samsung/LG wanted Blu-ray to win in Korea, they could do it overnight, because they control EVERYTHING behind the scenes in Korea. They haven't, and that speaks volumes.

Another thing... Korean businesses operate much like you see North Korea operate: agree to something, then back down and expect more in addition before they honor the agreement. I would not at all be surprised if this is what is going on right now between BR and Samsung. I would bet the farm that Samsung made an agreement with Sony, Panny, etc., to pay $XX for the rights to make these players, and now that the game has become heated, they're threatening/going non-exclusive in order to negotiate lower prices for the technology.

This is how Koreans operate -- doesn't matter if we're talking North or South Korea. Keep this in mind if you ever plan to do business here.

By the way, I can't find any HD-DVDs here. Not a big deal, considering there are only about 15 BR's anyway (including such break-down-the-door titles, such as RENT). hahha

The problem is client sideSo why did Blu-ray choose to use Java in a client side scenario? I'd agree, it was a bad move.

I'm not a fan of java, but you forget things like mobile phones and blackberries running hundreds of millions of copies of client side java.

Just to clear up a few thing, you failed to mention the free discs the BDA gave away with the US and EU launch of PS3 thus "diluting there potential sales". It also appears as if you forgot to mention the Toshiba,Circuit City and Best Buy promotion giving away 4 discs per player that will count as sales thus allowing the HD promotions group to "inflate their disc sales".

HD group does not include the giveaways as HD disc sales.

Yeah - neither is the reliability........the old "cross your fingers & hope" java prayer.

and toss in Sun = eeeeewwww, ick :D

"Write once, test everywhere..."

Ahh, I see someone beat me to it!

E

And then release it only on red-laser DVD. :D

P.S. I anxiously await next month's newsletter, with comments from Panasonic to Samsung.

Or on VMD format. HAhaha.

Funny enough a year later it still is.
HD-A2 = ~$300. PS3 =~$600
Internet time, its 4x

Everybody:

Do not say what you believe to be false.
Grubert:

[Do Not Panic...]

Everybody:

Do not say what you believe to be false.

It would be nice if you point out the posts instead of trying to paint everybody with black tar ...

HD group does not include the giveaways as HD disc sales.

If the freebies cross the cash register as sales they will be counted I suspect...The mail in freebies shouldn't count though.

last I checked it was around 1.2M to .9M, .3M is not bad for a format that is 9month old compared to one that is 12.

As others have mentioned the BD ratio is not so impressive when installed base is taken into consideration. Yes 1.3 million is more than 900,000, but it wasn't enough to convince Samsung to stay Blu exclusive.

so you think people that go HD can go back to SD even though they have an HD player?

They can when the HD player in question (PS3) is hooked up to an SD TV as many PS3s are. 1080p and 480i are essentially the same on a 480i TV and that is what most of the people I know have their PS3 connected to.

I'm not a fan of java, but you forget things like mobile phones and blackberries running hundreds of millions of copies of client side java.

With that kind of install base and history behind it, they should already be done with a full implementation of BD-J, right?

HDi should be no match for BD-J.

Does anyone remember who was the VP that quit when his company unveiled a Blu-ray-only player in late 2006? I am guessing it was LG, but I can't remember, and can't seem to find a reference to it.

With that kind of install base and history behind it, they should already be done with a full implementation of BD-J, right?

HDi should be no match for BD-J.
Clarification? "no match"

Having worked with Java & it's owner I have some scepticism. Yes, it's on a gagillion devices but it can be a PITA - especially if you try to "code once, deploy on all" which is what BD devices will be. I see a good deal of room for issues, especially where the code is evolving (future patches).

It's very much like those "one size fits all garments" which really means "one size fits none".

May not be an issue at all, but given my personal experience I'm definately on the "wait & see" side.

I am assuming the BDA went with Java since it is more pwerful than HDi and you get richer functionality with less processing power.

To me all the Java bashing seems over done a bit. IF the BDA can get BD-J to work correctly, they will be able to do way more than HDi, inclunding stop-and-resume.

I looka t some of the new MSFT platforms like Vista and Windows Mobile and these are resourse hogs and unstable. Hence why a lot of devices use Java. The biggest problem with Java is not the technology itself, but rather development tools. That's where MSFT exels in.

Personally, I haven't seen anything mind blowing from HDi. The fact that once you use HDi, you can't stop-resume seems to be a joke. It's technically feasible, but probably requires more processing power. Features like IME should be possible with BD-J. The problem with BD-J is that it is hard to get things done in a democracy v. a dictatorship. So I can understand why BD-J is slower to develop. However, I do believe it has the potential to outperform HDi.

In software there is the trade off triangel between performance, functionality and cost. You have to optimize. You can't compare custom Java apps with out of the box apps like Word or Excel etc. The problem is not the code but the coder. Ajax is cool, but I haven't seen Ajax apps that impressed me either (at least at the customers I have worked with), and it is hard to create apps using Ajax as well. JMHO.

We work with both J2EE and .NET and we have developed both Java Smart Client Apps a s well as with AJAX. So, this is just my impression so far....The NSA uses lots of client side Java in their apps. FWIW.

Having worked with Java & it's owner I have some scepticism. Yes, it's on a gagillion devices but it can be a PITA - especially if you try to "code once, deploy on all" which is what BD devices will be.

I've programmed and managed large projects in both client Java and Ajax (not HDi specifically, but all the related tech). For ease of testing and compatibility, I'd choose client Java in a heartbeat. That's not to say that it's the right solution most of the time, but I find it much more compatible between platforms than Ajax-style technologies.

Most Ajax-style apps (e.g. Google Maps) aren't impressive for what they do, but for the web platform they do it on. Those same apps would be completely unimpressive on a more stable platform like client-Java or native applications.

And I think your argument falls apart when you consider the comments from Digital Leisure, and the difficulty they have had bringing "Dragon's Lair" to HD DVD. They claimed compatibility was worse than for BD.

So, this is just my impression so far....
Seems reasonable. Don't think it's "bashing" per se, at least not from me - just skeptical. Host side it's very good but client side can be trouble.........and given they'll have various machines from different vendors means the chances for issues increase.

No nothing of HDi (software side), but I'll more than agree JAVA is potent & will allow for for a great deal of creativity.

Only consumer experience with CE & I've not found it to be anything but "bloated" (but isn't that MS's SOP). Definately seems to slow down most things.....haven't seen much in the way of stability issues.

Just skeptical, I guess we'll see in the fall.

Blu Ray easily has a 10:1 lead in installed player base at this point. The fact that they don't have anywhere near a 10:1 lead in software sales is a strong indicator that Sony's BD-PS3 gamble is not going to pay off. What Sony does have though is a combined attach rate of less than 1 movie per player. It's really close to 1 movie / 3 players. That's hardly anything to get excited about.

All that tells me is that HD is not very compelling. Many of the PS3 owners probably don't even have a high def setup, or just don't care to spend extra money for discs which are only marginally better than SD DVD.

Both sides need to get over this attach rate silliness. When HD DVD breaks out of the AV enthusiast community and sells more players, it's attach rate will plummet, too.

Neither format is particularly different or better than the other. Attach rates are symptom of the type of consumer buying that format at this point in time.

HD group does not include the giveaways as HD disc sales.

This is incorrect, the 4 free discs are actually scanned at the store front and they will indeed count as sales using Neilson numbers.

This is incorrect, the 4 free discs are actually scanned at the store front and they will indeed count as sales using Neilson numbers.
Your thinking of the Circuit City offer, the Toshiba offer does not originate at point of sale.

This is incorrect, the 4 free discs are actually scanned at the store front and they will indeed count as sales using Neilson numbers. the Toshiba HD DVD mail in rebate offer does not go through the pointy of sale, the CC offer does.

I am assuming the BDA went with Java since it is more pwerful than HDi and you get richer functionality with less processing power.DVB and OCAP also use Java, so there is a lot of commonality in software development. Most of the CE manufacturers were already working on those, so building on that software platform and development effort would seem a natural thing to do.

I've programmed and managed large projects in both client Java and Ajax (not HDi specifically, but all the related tech). For ease of testing and compatibility, I'd choose client Java in a heartbeat. That's not to say that it's the right solution most of the time, but I find it much more compatible between platforms than Ajax-style technologies.

Most Ajax-style apps (e.g. Google Maps) aren't impressive for what they do, but for the web platform they do it on. Those same apps would be completely unimpressive on a more stable platform like client-Java or native applications.

And I think your argument falls apart when you consider the comments from Digital Leisure, and the difficulty they have had bringing "Dragon's Lair" to HD DVD. They claimed compatibility was worse than for BD.

A lot of the choices that HD DVD has made was because the technology is easier to implement (which makes it more efficient as well). For me these are good things that will allow the format to survive and prosper. But BD is a more powerful platform to develop on, including their use of BD-J. However, it requires good developers and good tools to make it useful for client applications - this is something that historically Java hasn't done well in. So far the BD execution hasn't impressed me much....

Is there any official statement that these sales figures are for movies only? Or do they state "discs" and the second hand columnists just translate that to movies?
The reason I ask is from what I've read all I can get is "packaged media" which should also include the games.

Also, how many PS3 games have been sold to date?

If anything this article disproves one point of FUD that the HD DVDers throw around:

That BD is a "Sony" or "Sony only" format. Panasonic has a large amount of vested interests & patents in the format.

Besides, LG is getting the same threats from Panasonic that the HD DVD group (DVD forum) threatened because their combo player was non HDi compliant (and I think their players & TVs are JUNK btw)

Korean company politics are complicated, I'm not sure why HD DVDers are happy that they're on their "side". You see a woman stab her husband in the back, would you marry her?

And then there's the cheap junk from China. The argument about quality goes out the window there. Imagine the compatibility issues from those things!

peterthx,

Besides, LG is getting the same threats from Panasonic that the HD DVD group (DVD forum) threatened because their combo player was non HDi compliant

No, that situation is different. To be a HD DVD player you have to meet certain requirements, HDi being one.

It would be like someone making a player that doesnt play BD discs, and yet calling it a BD player.

From the CED Industry Newsletter a few week ago:

The article is talking about the Samsung Duo player recently announced, but at the end of the article is this tiny bit about what happened at a recent DVD Forum meeting.



Hopefully people will see the humor in this and not take the happening too seriously, no matter what side of the fence they are on...

Hmmm... Perhaps there'll be an LG combo player in my distant future. I like the flavor of that :).

, and Toshiba is subsidizing their entire line.

Where does this come from?

HD-DVD launched in April. BD had one buggy Sammy player, and no other players (and no PS3) until November. BD movie sales skyrocketed when the PS3 was released. A solid 6 month head start for HD-DVD.

Lets not get into the free movie crap again, thats been debated endlessly (not to mention Tosh giving away 4 free disks, but you'll claim that didn't count, or whatever, I give up.)

The Samsung wasn't "buggy". It had exactly one defect in that a hardware video filter was stuck ON, resulting in a small degree of picture softening -- which was corrected early September by FW update. The primary problem was not the Samsung, but rather the borderline Sony BD releases.

So how about ceasing the blaming of Samsung for Sony's issues!

If anything this article disproves one point of FUD that the HD DVDers throw around:

Besides, LG is getting the same threats from Panasonic that the HD DVD group (DVD forum) threatened because their combo player was non HDi compliant (and I think their players & TVs are JUNK btw)If anyone is spreading fud pal it is you. WTF did you hear that the DVDforum "threatened" LG? They simply could not allow cerification because it did not conform to the formats standards.

Korean company politics are complicated, I'm not sure why HD DVDers are happy that they're on their "side". You see a woman stab her husband in the back, would you marry her?Again, WTF are you talking about??? Personally I'd buy a product from Samsung over Sony anyday. The sad thing is a Korean company has better business ethics than a Japanese company. Sony has really slid downhill since the 80's.

This is incorrect, the 4 free discs are actually scanned at the store front and they will indeed count as sales using Neilson numbers.
Why are you making a correction here??? You do not know if those discs count towards the Neilson sales data or not. Neither does the other person you are correcting. You also do not know what stores turn over sales data to Neilson. I am so sick of people passing off their guesses around here as fact.

The Blu Ray name and logo are Sony trademarks and used with the permission of Sony. Panny has sold around .1% of all BD harware sold so far....if not less, so IMO both Panny and Pio should focus on their products first, and bully tactics later.

The Blu Ray name and logo are Sony trademarks and used with the permission of Sony. Panny has sold around .1% of all BD harware sold so far....if not less, so IMO both Panny and Pio should focus on their products first, and bully tactics later.

Perhaps they are just upset that LG has good prospects for profit, whereas their profit is less certain.

Panny could easily do what Tosh is doing, but on the BD side and do a much better job given their resources. I am disappointed in Panny for their total half ass job with BD so far - as far as hardware goes. They should have priced their player aggressively and had multiple models for different segments. They should had more vigorous promotions etc. Instead they have an over priced player with no promotions and poor marketing....honestly, I was expecting more from Panny here. Sad thing is that after 5 years of backing their plasmas, I'm afraid they are falling back there as well. Sad, really.

They'd make a nice dual format player I'm sure ;)

If anyone is spreading fud pal it is you. WTF did you hear that the DVDforum "threatened" LG? They simply could not allow cerification because it did not conform to the formats standards.

It was a whole lot more than certification. Point is the forum was not nice about the prospect of LG using the logo or implying that they could play HD DVDs in the first place. Indeed some of your AVS cohorts went so far as to say LG "doesn't count" as a HD DVD supporting company, or that their implementation was "half-assed".

Again, WTF are you talking about??? Personally I'd buy a product from Samsung over Sony anyday. The sad thing is a Korean company has better business ethics than a Japanese company. Sony has really slid downhill since the 80's.

Oh please. That's rich. Talk about ethics?!?

Besides, would you buy an LG one?

That sums up the HD DVD owner's arguments there. They have no real reason to support HD DVD over BD other than an irrational hatred of anything Sony. I hope you don't have any CDs!

The Samsung wasn't "buggy". It had exactly one defect in that a hardware video filter was stuck ON, resulting in a small degree of picture softening -- which was corrected early September by FW update. The primary problem was not the Samsung, but rather the borderline Sony BD releases.

So how about ceasing the blaming of Samsung for Sony's issues!

I realise they were scapegoated, I was just stating that the "real" launch of BD was not until around November, and that the Sammys reputation for being buggy (deserved or not) gave HD-DVD a good solid head start in sales. As did the crap early mastering.

Kind of nice to see ain't it? :)

I guess the Japanese companies are having a tough time swallowing the fact that the Korean companies are no longer under their thumb. They become big enough to tell them to kiss off.

I'm liking Samsung & LG more all the time :D


Given the quality of Samsung's Blu-ray player last year and LG's dual format player that can't run HDi this year, I think you might wish to reevaluate that "liking." ;)

I generally like CE companies for releasing good product, not for pseudo-attacking formats I do not favor. ;)

If they did not believe in Blu-ray, they would not be keeping the electronics that will make their players be more expensive than a simple HD DVD player. It is clear they favor the format because otherwise they wouldn't want the extra expense. A truly HD DVD-supporting company would cut the Blu-ray expense and release low-priced HD DVD players.

If Samsung did make an HD DVD only player, it wouldn't surprise me though. I mean, look at how the BDA slapped them around to save face on a launch that really and truly shouldn't have happened last year in June. Even Fox admits the real launch was in November. And it really was.

A lot of what these companies do is political. Hence, Universal vs Sony. Toshiba vs Sony. Microsoft vs Sony.

Go figure Universal, Toshiba, and Microsoft would find common ground in hating Sony and see a vehicle with which to stall the easy road to high definition progression where a new ratio of royalties might be made...

;)

That sums up the HD DVD owner's arguments there. They have no real reason to support HD DVD over BD other than an irrational hatred of anything Sony. I hope you don't have any CDs!You really shouldn't assume. I plan on buying the Samsung dual format player. Last I checked it plays Blu-Ray too. Honestly, you are the one who has a closed minded hatred towards one format. Not me, or countless others you are accusing.

A lot of the choices that HD DVD has made was because the technology is easier to implement (which makes it more efficient as well). For me these are good things that will allow the format to survive and prosper. But BD is a more powerful platform to develop on, including their use of BD-J. However, it requires good developers and good tools to make it useful for client applications - this is something that historically Java hasn't done well in. So far the BD execution hasn't impressed me much....
And don't forget about Java performance in the players themselves, which has been a big issue so far.

I realise they were scapegoated, I was just stating that the "real" launch of BD was not until around November, and that the Sammys reputation for being buggy (deserved or not) gave HD-DVD a good solid head start in sales. As did the crap early mastering.
By that logic, we could argue that the "real" launch of HD DVD won't happen until the cheap players show up in Wal-Mart this Christmas, so really, no players have been made, and selling nearly 1 million discs is a nearly infinite attach rate. :rolleyes: ;) :rolleyes: ;)

Sorry - once the first player is out, the format is launched. If the people responsible for the format made mistakes, then their stats show the impact of the mistakes. Don't try to rewrite history.

Ken

I've programmed and managed large projects in both client Java and Ajax (not HDi specifically, but all the related tech). For ease of testing and compatibility, I'd choose client Java in a heartbeat. That's not to say that it's the right solution most of the time, but I find it much more compatible between platforms than Ajax-style technologies.

Most Ajax-style apps (e.g. Google Maps) aren't impressive for what they do, but for the web platform they do it on. Those same apps would be completely unimpressive on a more stable platform like client-Java or native applications.
HDi isn't that close to AJAX, really. Conformance is much more tightly defined, etcetera. HDi is much more like Silverlight.

And I think your argument falls apart when you consider the comments from Digital Leisure, and the difficulty they have had bringing "Dragon's Lair" to HD DVD. They claimed compatibility was worse than for BD.
Weren't they trying to build it as Standard Content, not HDi?

Is there any official statement that these sales figures are for movies only? Or do they state "discs" and the second hand columnists just translate that to movies?
The reason I ask is from what I've read all I can get is "packaged media" which should also include the games.

Also, how many PS3 games have been sold to date?If you are talking about the Nielsen numbers and million plus discs stuff, then I think that it has to be just movies. There is a pdf somewhere showing Nielsen numbers for each movie through March 18th and that is just movies.

As far as PS3 games, they must be over 1 million for the NA on their own, as Resistance is at over 650k just by itself and just a few others I see here:

http://vgchartz.com/aweekly.php?date=39187

take them over 1 million. The estimates there have them selling over 100k games per week.

--Darin

the Toshiba HD DVD mail in rebate offer does not go through the pointy of sale, the CC offer does.

This is correct and this is what I was reffering to. All indications are that the 4 free discs (from CC and BB) will be counted as a sale (by neilson) just as the buy 1 get 1 free discs that Sony had on sale previous this year were counted. From my dealings with Neilson in the past they use sales data collected from point of sale and unless BB or CC alter there data these discs will be counted as discs sold.

Why are you making a correction here??? You do not know if those discs count towards the Neilson sales data or not. Neither does the other person you are correcting. You also do not know what stores turn over sales data to Neilson. I am so sick of people passing off their guesses around here as fact.

So what you are saying is that since we don't know what data is given to Neilson and we don't know what data is correct its all just "guesses" and thus making it useless data?

That sums up the HD DVD owner's arguments there. They have no real reason to support HD DVD over BD other than an irrational hatred of anything Sony. I hope you don't have any CDs!


Or maybe they understand things you do not, and are not mystified by slick marketing programs (like THX for example.)

Or maybe they understand things you do not, and are not mystified by slick marketing programs (like THX for example.)


Sorry, I guess nearly 25 years in the industry has left me senile. Care to educate (like how THX is just marketing) or just personally attack?

So what you are saying is that since we don't know what data is given to Neilson and we don't know what data is correct its all just "guesses" and thus making it useless data?I am saying... do you have proof that CC or BB are two retailers that Neilson acquires their sales data from?

Given the quality of Samsung's Blu-ray player last year and LG's dual format player that can't run HDi this year, I think you might wish to reevaluate that "liking."
I wasn't referring to products, just attitude. The "dressing down" was bad form & standing up to them was what I liked. I liked the attitude, telling them to go scratch.

Originally Posted by PeterTHX
That sums up the HD DVD owner's arguments there. They have no real reason to support HD DVD over BD other than an irrational hatred of anything Sony. I hope you don't have any CDs!
I wouldn't call myself a staunch supporter but it has little to do with Sony, just the group. From a consumer viewpoint I see nothing good about the BDA's approach. Trying to keep prices up to maximize profits it the issue for me, not Sony.

Panny could easily do what Tosh is doing, but on the BD side and do a much better job given their resources. I am disappointed in Panny for their total half ass job with BD so far - as far as hardware goes. They should have priced their player aggressively and had multiple models for different segments. They should had more vigorous promotions etc. Instead they have an over priced player with no promotions and poor marketing....honestly, I was expecting more from Panny here. Sad thing is that after 5 years of backing their plasmas, I'm afraid they are falling back there as well. Sad, really.

They'd make a nice dual format player I'm sure ;)

I believe part of the problem for those manufacturers is that they are totally undercut by Sony's PS3. Designing and putting in production a full featured BR player is not cheap, and not selling in enough quantity to recoup that investment because Sony is cutting the grass from under your feet has got to bite. I wouldn't be surprised if this becomes the main reason why more and more CEs will end up making dual format players. It really is the only way out at this point, unless Walmart decides to push the market one way or another, but I think we'll find out by the end of this year which way the wind blows.

I am saying... do you have proof that CC or BB are two retailers that Neilson acquires their sales data from?

yes, ask VS

Is there any official statement that these sales figures are for movies only? Or do they state "discs" and the second hand columnists just translate that to movies?
The reason I ask is from what I've read all I can get is "packaged media" which should also include the games.

Also, how many PS3 games have been sold to date?

Paul, that is an odd question. Do you honestly think that with over 1M PS3 that games and movies are at around 1M?

PS VS only counts movies

I hope there's a gigantic legal battle with LG just so we might be able to see what this contract was.
Personally I can't see myself buying an LG product in the foreseeable future either way. Certainly not that player. I'm eagerly awaiting the Samsung dula-format offering and any possible reactions from Sony/BDA and Panasonic.

and hey - we're all adults here. Right? Some with self described "years in the industry". So do we really need to STILL make sweeping generalizations, demonizing people because they might of bought a blu-ray player or HD-DVD player?
"HDDVD'rs only thinks this way because of ..." and "Blu-ray'rs all smell funny because ...".
Do you really think you can be Sigmund Freud with complete strangers based on a consumer electronics purchase? Even if you had that profound power - is it relevant to this thread?

It doesn't elevate any topic and it's embarrassing.

Trying to keep prices up to maximize profits it the issue for me, not Sony.

So companies shouldn't make a profit?
No return on investment?
Everything should be sold at a loss?

The current profit on BD players isn't that high. Consider R&D costs, costs of starting up production/distribution/marketing of a new product. Those go away after time and prices fall.

last I checked it was around 1.2M to .9M, .3M is not bad for a format that is 9month old compared to one that is 12.


BDA trumpted 1 million discs sold...HD DVD said that at that very time, they were at 998,000...

sounds pretty even to me.

BDA trumpted 1 million discs sold...HD DVD said that at that very time, they were at 998,000...

sounds pretty even to me.

because one is apples and the other oranges. If you read what was said was that VS numbers had reached over 1M, these are actual disks counted by VS. VS does not reach all manufacturers. The 980k is an assumed number based on the fact that VS does not cover everyone.

So companies shouldn't make a profit?
No return on investment?
Everything should be sold at a loss?

No, but they shouldn't cry about their competetion doing their own thing.

Panny could easily do what Tosh is doing, but on the BD side and do a much better job given their resources. I am disappointed in Panny for their total half ass job with BD so far - as far as hardware goes. They should have priced their player aggressively and had multiple models for different segments. They should had more vigorous promotions etc. Instead they have an over priced player with no promotions and poor marketing....honestly, I was expecting more from Panny here. Sad thing is that after 5 years of backing their plasmas, I'm afraid they are falling back there as well. Sad, really.

They'd make a nice dual format player I'm sure ;)

I suspect the criticisms you are leveling here are the result primarily of their engagement in the BDA. Earlier "announced" BDA/Sony philosophy regarding new technology pricing diverges with following the Toshiba business plan.

Of course, as discussed before, if the BDA business plan fails to deliver the goods (such as suggested by Sony's upcoming $600 player and discontinued 20GB PS3), then all bets are off as to what Pioneer and Panasonic will be doing twelve months from now (maybe sooner.) It already appears Samsung and LG have decided their original thinking may still be the best -- at least for them. :)

I realise they were scapegoated, I was just stating that the "real" launch of BD was not until around November, and that the Sammys reputation for being buggy (deserved or not) gave HD-DVD a good solid head start in sales. As did the crap early mastering.

Well, I was following it at the time and I can certainly agree that the launch was bungled (thanks primarily to Sony -- there was a management change shortly after that). I also agree that Sony's reaction was to point the finger at Samsung, and that severely aggravated the tendency on this forum to consider the Samsung to be an inferior product (hence the "buggy" supposition).

However, I'm not sure I can go along with Sony's current position that Blu-Ray really didn't launch until the arrival of the PS3. That may have been Sony's launch, but other players preceeded it (and not just the Samsung). BR launched well before Sony did (to say otherwise is just spin!)

I mean, look at how the BDA slapped them around to save face on a launch that really and truly shouldn't have happened last year in June. Even Fox admits the real launch was in November. And it really was.

;)

It wasn't the BDA that slapped Samsung around, it was specifically Sony that pointed the finger at them -- to try to avoid acknowledging the dubious quality BD releases they had made.

These following words smell so bad of politics and spin that my nostrils hurt:

"Even Fox admits the real launch was in November. And it really was."

Oooo -- what a nif! Fox may admit that that was their own launch month (presuming it to be when they first started releasing titles), but what has that got to do with defining when Blu-Ray launched? Nothing!

Personally I'd buy a product from Samsung over Sony anyday. The sad thing is a Korean company has better business ethics than a Japanese company. Sony has really slid downhill since the 80's.
Why is it "sad"? (bolded mine)

not saying I agree, but i am curious about the rationale

So companies shouldn't make a profit?
No return on investment?
Everything should be sold at a loss?

The current profit on BD players isn't that high. Consider R&D costs, costs of starting up production/distribution/marketing of a new product. Those go away after time and prices fall.

Yeah, and then Sony undercuts them a few hundred bills with the PS3 and end result for recouping their R&D and putting their machines in production : zilch.

Nice way to thank the CEs for single handedly holding their format (Samsung at launch) and later on the others. Tell me now, you really think Pioneer, Panasonic, and whoever else was dumb enough to buy into Sony's new world domination plans made any profit ?

That sums up the HD DVD owner's arguments there. They have no real reason to support HD DVD over BD other than an irrational hatred of anything Sony.

Rootkits, fake websites, viral marketing, and outrageous displays of mind-boggling arrogance are rational reasons to avoid Sony products if one chooses to do so.

But that's not the reason I chose HD DVD. I was actually going to wait until this year and get a BR player when the prices came down a bit. That decision was based on me believing all the hype surrounding studio support. But the BR launch (which took place in June 2006 no matter what Sony says) made it clear to me that BR was not the right path to HD enjoyment and that BDA couldn't be trusted. Having dismissed that option, in July I adopted the format supported by the DVD Forum. Since then, I've not seen any reason to spend additional money on a 2nd player. If BR eventually wins, I can always replace my HD DVD player with a BR player, fully satisfied that I got my $440 worth out of my A1 soley through the DVD upscaling, with HD DVD thrown in as a free bonus. If the outcome is permanent co-existence, then I will eventually buy a universal player.

So, you may claim that I am irrational for supporting HD DVD over BR, but the fact that I can lay out a coherent thought process for my decision says otherwise. It would be far easier to argue the irrationality of anyone dropping $1K on the G1 Sammy last year after the consistent reviews the BR launch titles received.

Let's for a moment look at this from a slightly different perspective:

Why would Microsoft decide to take on Sony/BD
DRM, If you look at Apple/Microsoft both companies see that the future is download, and that DRM will be an issue, so far Jobs has taken a more vocal public position, but it is highly likely and comments from Microsoft support that Microsoft saw Sony/BD taking DRM too far

Both PS3 and Xbox 360 are being looked at long term as being more than simply games consoles, Microsoft needed to blunt Sony's move into this space, AND there is a back story of Sony pushing for a more Linux based PS3 as a computer, which is obviously not attractive for Microsoft.

Microsoft understands better than any company the value of a strategy based on high volume, mass merchandising and low low cost via an oem channel. Sony has always had diffuculty with this, linking price as a measure of value and quality.

This space economically is an elastic market, where the ability to drive a dramatic cost/ASP curve is the key to success. Sony has made the fatal mistake of mis reading this market as being a quality, early adopter market. Sony gambled on massive sales of PS3's but also a cost curve and a time to market that they have missed. From a financial standpoint, Sony Cannot afford to build/sell PS3's on a cost curve that is aggressive enough to compete with low cost high volume HD DVD PLAYERS. A battle simply with Xbox 360 is one thing, a low cost high volume player is another.

At this point we are starting to seem some cracks emerge in the CE partners, It is only a matter of time before the cracks start to emerge with the studios. At the end of the day, the studios will follow the old saying, "Friends are friends but business is business" IF Walmart brings to market a low cost HD DVD player, sold via their massive box mover organization, Sony's desire to make BD the standard, will become economically unachievable.

We will continue to see Microsoft put pricing pressure on the PS3 via a continual update at each point where Sony begins to reduce the loss per box, and HD DVD player ASP'S move along the elastic curve to the 100 dollar price point.

When the case study is written on this, it will be interesting to see if the analysis shows that the PS3 being late, Costs being too high, and Sony's unwillingness and nability to bring to market a low cost, BD player, and the consumers perception that the high Def quality was great, but not great enough to support a 10 to20 times price differential vs up scaled standard dvd.

John

^^^^^

Yeah!

:D

That sums up the HD DVD owner's arguments there. They have no real reason to support HD DVD over BD other than an irrational hatred of anything Sony.

:confused:

Price isn't a real reason? Prefering the content isn't a real reason?

Those are some mighty fine points you got there DVDoctor.

Might fine points indeed.

DVDoctor, that was a very interesting read. Great points.

Sony has made the fatal mistake of mis reading this market as being a quality, early adopter market. Sony gambled on massive sales of PS3's but also a cost curve and a time to market that they have missed. From a financial standpoint, Sony Cannot afford to build/sell PS3's on a cost curve that is aggressive enough to compete with low cost high volume HD DVD PLAYERS. A battle simply with Xbox 360 is one thing, a low cost high volume player is another. Hence the panic in Blu-ray circles about any possibility of HD DVD players at Wal-Mart.

But the HD A2 is already in Costco now. HD A2's are already on the street or available online for around $299 and I betcha Toshiba will have them advertised for that price by Xmas, if not sooner.

Lower prices affects sales dramatically once you get under that $300 threshold.

The CEA shows $299 and $199 as points where volumes start to skyrocket.

HD-DVD had a massive head start???? :confused: What head start? Didn't the formats release about the same time? Or are you talking about the "hidef war not starting until Sony says so"? Yeah, HD-DVD had a big head start when it was the consumers choice, then Sony said "Let the war begin" and released the PS3 and gave away a title with it they counted towards their total sales giving them a 1 movie attach rate. The head start is actually right now since the neutral studios are just beginning to realize Blu-Rays deficiencies.
stop using the ps3 as your comfort zone. the ps3 isnt doing noting right now. that was sonys trogen horse and it failed,deal with it

And the common sense post smacks down the ridculous Blu-Ray fanboy claims.

?

Hardly. It's ALL speculation at this point.

Along with the speculation like"Disney & Lionsgate will go neutral at CES"
"A lot of new companies are going neutral" "Combo players!"

Just how many combos has LG sold?

Some still hold onto the hope that Walmart has these mystery HD DVD players planned, even after the company says they don't.

The $199 XBOX 360 add on languishes on store shelves, despite the millions of 360's out there...even accounting for MS' downward sales revisons of the console.

Software sells hardware.
2:1+ sales aren't going to convince studios to switch, (except perhaps for Universal).

Wake up, grow up.

?

Hardly. It's ALL speculation at this point.

Along with the speculation like"Disney & Lionsgate will go neutral at CES"
"A lot of new companies are going neutral" "Combo players!"

Just how many combos has LG sold?

Some still hold onto the hope that Walmart has these mystery HD DVD players planned, even after the company says they don't.

The $199 XBOX 360 add on languishes on store shelves, despite the millions of 360's out there...even accounting for MS' downward sales revisons of the console.

Software sells hardware.
2:1+ sales aren't going to convince studios to switch, (except perhaps for Universal).

Wake up, grow up.

Your post is a complete non sequitar. None of what you wrote had anything to do with the post you quoted. You've just strung together a string of random accusations and speculation against HD DVD, and then proudly announced "wake up, grow up." It's like you have your little talking points you want to throw out, and the fact that it's non-responsive to the subject you were replying to was totally irrelevant to you.

Your post is a complete non sequitar. None of what you wrote had anything to do with the post you quoted. You've just strung together a string of random accusations and speculation against HD DVD, and then proudly announced "wake up, grow up." It's like you have your little talking points you want to throw out, and the fact that it's non-responsive to the subject you were replying to was totally irrelevant to you.

Pot, kettle. :rolleyes:

Along with the speculation like"Disney & Lionsgate will go neutral at CES"
"A lot of new companies are going neutral" "Combo players!"

BR side has done it's share of speculating as well. "Universal neutral at CES!" "HD DVD crushed when PS3 arrives!" And combo players are no longer speculation.

Some still hold onto the hope that Walmart has these mystery HD DVD players planned, even after the company says they don't.

I haven't seen any press releases from WM stating they don't have HD DVD players planned. I've seen a press release denying one specific statement made by one specific company. And we all know that denying future product is standard practice anyway, so it means nothing. How recent was the last statement by MS denying the 360 Elite? If you want a good example of someone hoping for an event that has been denied, you'd be better served by quoting the BR fanboys who said Universal's recommitment to exclusivity was secret code-speak for "we're going neutral!"

The $199 XBOX 360 add on languishes on store shelves

I'm not sure why you think you know the shelf life of HD DVD add-ons across the country.


Software sells hardware.
2:1+ sales aren't going to convince studios to switch, (except perhaps for Universal).

I'll agree with the general sentiment... but it remains to be seen if BR can maintain 2:1 sales ratio. Let's revisit this closer to the holidays.

Wake up, grow up.
Aren't you the one who claimed the only reason to own HD DVD was an irrational hatred of Sony? And then ignored the counterarguments?

At times like this I'm torn over use of the ignore list. Do I ignore you? Or do I endure your posts so I can be there to raise the BS flag for the benefit of the newcomers seeking information?

?

Hardly. It's ALL speculation at this point.

Along with the speculation like"Disney & Lionsgate will go neutral at CES"
"A lot of new companies are going neutral" "Combo players!"

Just how many combos has LG sold?

Some still hold onto the hope that Walmart has these mystery HD DVD players planned, even after the company says they don't.

The $199 XBOX 360 add on languishes on store shelves, despite the millions of 360's out there...even accounting for MS' downward sales revisons of the console.

Software sells hardware.
2:1+ sales aren't going to convince studios to switch, (except perhaps for Universal).

Wake up, grow up.

The 360 HD DVD player sold 92,000 in 2006 alone, and it was released in November. I know you Blu-Ray fanboys would love for MS to support Blu-Ray, but Microsoft is behind HD DVD, get over it already.

?

Hardly. It's ALL speculation at this point.

Along with the speculation like"Disney & Lionsgate will go neutral at CES"
"A lot of new companies are going neutral" "Combo players!"

Just how many combos has LG sold?

Some still hold onto the hope that Walmart has these mystery HD DVD players planned, even after the company says they don't.

The $199 XBOX 360 add on languishes on store shelves, despite the millions of 360's out there...even accounting for MS' downward sales revisons of the console.

Software sells hardware.
2:1+ sales aren't going to convince studios to switch, (except perhaps for Universal).

Wake up, grow up.

I believe the avg. sales per title is pretty even for both formats. That's pretty impressive for HD DVD, since they have far fewer players on the market. If you take out the top 10 selling titles from each format, you'd get an even more skewed result in favor of HD DVD. So, if you're a studio and you're looking for a format to which you can release a wider variety of content, I'd say HD DVD has the edge....

2:1+ was for Q1 and from all accounts that looks like history for now....we'll have to see if the big BD blockbusters will tilt the balance in future, but now YTD, SI or weekly market share are less than 2:1. AFAIK.

Well combos players are here and more are coming from companies formally Blu-ray exclusive, including the first company to release a Blu-ray player.

Wal-Mart seems to at least put out request for vendors to tell them how fast they can produce more than 2 million HD DVD players and how fast while reminding reporters that talks between Wal-Mart and it vendors and future product plans are of course confidential.

The Xbox 360 add on by itself has sold more standalone units than any other Blu-ry player except the PS3 and PS3 sales seem to be dropping month by month are nowhere near the volume Sony promised to the BDA.

As hundreds of thousands of new HD DVD units start being sold in the upcoming months, out of the 1st quarter consumer electronic sales doldrums and accumulate month by month maybe you will see that an installed base of hardware will sell software.

Traditionally, most DVD titles do most sales within 10 weeks of release. It makes sense to have enough to be a critical mass to sustain new hardware purchases. But more hardware drives more software sales.

Software only drives sales when there is no enough titles to support a purchase decision. I doubt very few people see a new title and say I need to buy the new player. Its the people who already have the player that buy the movies.

Pot, kettle. :rolleyes:
Once again, this makes no sense. It is an insult of sorts, but it has nothing to do with what was posted. It's like you are posting random insults or accusations, even when they are totally irrelevant to what the discussion is.

You made a non sequitar post, I responded directly to it, and then you reply "Pot, Kettle" LOL that makes no sense. I didn't call you anything, so how can I be the same thing? Oh well, that's just silly.

Well combos players are here and more are coming from companies formally Blu-ray exclusive, including the first company to release a Blu-ray player.

2 Korean companies is hardly "more & more". If say Panasonic tilted then I'd be worried.
Besides, how many other companies have an optical division tied to Toshiba? Other than SAMSUNG I don't know of any (the *real* reason they went combo, not some political reason so many fanbois think)

PS3 sales seem to be dropping month by month
out of the 1st quarter consumer electronic sales doldrums and accumulate month by month maybe you will see that an installed base of hardware will sell software

So you think HD DVD sales will rise and PS3 will not (and your remark about 1st quarter sales doldrums has perhaps SOMETHING to do with low PS3 sales???), especially when big upcoming titles for gaming are coming up? Look at your summer movie slate: once again it favors Blu-ray overwhelmingly.

Title for title released HD DVD is very competitive for movies released in both formats. In fact its sales are higher for some.

Warner has said it revenues are about even for both formats.

HD DVD has regained market share in the Nielson/Videoscan movie sales figures now for the last 4 weeks, and showed a 48% share to 52%% in the last available week of April 22 Nielson (first alert numbers as reported by HMM) so the first quarter BD sales leads maybe history.

The longer HD DVD stays alive the longer it will be for studios to stay neutral. Not only that, those hardware units keep on a selling, day after day,... week by week,... month by month,... quarter by quarter by an ever increasing rate as their retail prices fall from $499 to ...$399... to ...$299... (now).... to... $199... :D

so many fanbois thinkPot, kettle.

:D

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6435465.html?

Video Business - Two better than one? 4/20/07

...Yet it’s the one other HD DVD release to appear in the Top 25 that hints at the real story in the numbers, and it’s probably not the one Sony intended.

Warner’s The Departed was ranked No. 1 and No. 3 on Blu-ray and HD DVD, respectively. Combined, the sales to date of The Departed more than double sales of Sony’s Casino Royale, the biggest selling Blu-ray-only title to date. And Departed did it with $30 million less in domestic box-office behind it.

The Departed isn’t the only dual-format release to beat the best-selling single-format releases, either. Superman Returns, released in 2006 against a smaller hardware base, also outsold Casino Royale, according to sources familiar with the data. So did Happy Feet, released in March....

But given the current market realities, the best high-def strategy for a studio is to release movies in both formats....But from the perspective of a studio without a direct financial stake in a particular format there’s no clear victor in sight.At a minimum, the hardware format war will be with us for the next 12 to 18 months. Even if one side or the other were to stumble badly this fourth quarter, neither will vanish from the market until the middle of next year at the earliest.

In the face of those ground-level facts, it’s hard to see a basis for continuing to release movies only in one format.

At this point, a single-format strategy by any given studio is not affecting the course of the hardware format battle, which is moving under its own internal momentum.

The only measurable result—as the Sony data makes clear—is that single-format studios are leaving money on the table and getting nothing in return.

Your post is a complete non sequitar.



You made a non sequitar post,

If you are going to insist on using a Latin term to make an argument, at least learn how to spell it. First time you get a pass....second time, no. ;)

Now let the flaming begin since I dared to correct someone's spelling. :eek:

Hey, its Samsung and LG...the trailer park players in the DVD world...I'm not surprised at all they are heading to their familiar place where they can make even cheaper players (with their step brother Fuh Yuan)...;)

Thread meet lock