...at least on my set up.

There was a big thread a while back where the poster was unhappy wiht some moire pattens (on the outer wall of the vatican) and shimmering (on the stairs where in the vatican) in Mission Imposisble on his Toshiba A2 and XA2. He then "proved" that the BD version was indeed better since it lacked those issues.

I took him at face value and went out and bought the BD verision of MI:III. I already had the HD DVD version and wanted to see this big improvement for myself.

Before I go on, my hardware is:

Philips 42PF7421/37
RocketFish HDMI cables
Samsung BD-P1000
Toshiba HD-A2
Psyclone HDMI selector

The LCD is 720P and the players are both set to 720P (I tried 1080i for both and I liked the 720P setting better).

The $30 bummer:
I figured that the BD version of MI:III would have at least the improvements in the video artifacts mentioned above and maybe sharper onscreen text. I was wrong. THe moire patterns and shimmering are there and they are in EXACTLY the same places and intensity. I also noticed that there is more noise in the shadow and dark gradiations than on the HD DVD version. I've got to be clear, it's still one hell of a nice transfer and looks great on its own. SIde by side it's just not quite as good IMHO.

Is there a configuration of hardware that would avoid the moire patterns and shimmering? I am sure there is. My point is that an issue for one person might not be for another.

ALso if you are a dual platform owner, buy the HD DVD MI:III, I think it just looks a little better.

...The $30 bummer:
I figured that the BD version of MI:III would have at least the improvements in the video artifacts mentioned above and maybe sharper onscreen text. I was wrong. THe moire patterns and shimmering are there and they are in EXACTLY the same places and intensity. I also noticed that there is more noise in the shadow and dark gradiations than on the HD DVD version. I've got to be clear, it's still one hell of a nice transfer and looks great on its own. SIde by side it's just not quite as good IMHO.

Is there a configuration of hardware that would avoid the moire patterns and shimmering? I am sure there is. My point is that an issue for one person might not be for another.
.

Moire is unavoidable if you are scaling down to 720p. You must use a 1080p TV to check for differences in moire that are attributable to the source, or the player. Sorry, it's just simple physics. The only way to remove the moire you are seeing is to do some serious image processing before or during scaling, and the end result would be to wash out the detail even further.

Basically, you don't have the hardware to lay this question to rest.

However, its good to hear that on your setup, the HD-DVD looks best in other ways :)

Moire is unavoidable if you are scaling down to 720p. You must use a 1080p TV to check for differences in moire that are attributable to the source, or the player. Sorry, it's just simple physics. The only way to remove the moire you are seeing is to do some serious image processing before or during scaling, and the end result would be to wash out the detail even further.

Basically, you don't have the hardware to lay this question to rest.

However, its good to hear that on your setup, the HD-DVD looks best in other ways :)

DIdn't know that about the scaling.

Like I said I am happy with both versions of MI:3 (well I wish I owned only 1 since I;m out $30 for the second copy), it;s just been talked about that the BD version is better and it's not (at least on my set up as noted).

I thought the issue related to how your tv did its interlacing. I have a 65" 1080p DLP (HP) and I had the stairstepping/moire on the bridge and stairs at Rome playing through my A1 (1080i of of course de-interlaced to 1080p by my set). Now if the interlacing is done by the player and your tv accepts the signal without further processing that may make a difference because the interlacing might be better in the player. Now I haven't bought Mi3 for my PS3 to test this. Might make a difference since the PS3 sends a 1080p/60 signal to my set which it accepts and displays as is without any further de-interlacing.

I thought the issue related to how your tv did its interlacing. I have a 65" 1080p DLP (HP) and I had the stairstepping/moire on the bridge and stairs at Rome playing through my A1 (1080i of of course de-interlaced to 1080p by my set). Now if the interlacing is done by the player and your tv accepts the signal without further processing that may make a difference because the interlacing might be better in the player. Now I haven't bought Mi3 for my PS3 to test this. Might make a difference since the PS3 sends a 1080p/60 signal to my set which it accepts and displays as is without any further de-interlacing.

At this point I don't know... you might be right.

Same disc, same player, same 1080i setting.
My plasma did not display the moire and shimmer, but my LCD did.
There's your answer.

As a huge fan of Cruise and MI:III, this is my favorite HD-DVD just for the exclusive video commentary, which I really liked. I'm not sure how the extra commentary got integrated into the other releases (often, Cruise or Abrams would "pause" the movie and talk at length about the current scene, then resume the movie and continue). Did they just cut out the comments while they were "paused"?

On a Sammy HLS6188, I got both the moire on the wall and the shimmering on the steps using an HD-A2, which is 1080i. I bought an HD-XA2 (1080p) and the moire is completely gone. There's still some shimmering on the steps, but it's not as bad, and cycles on and off (which might actually be MORE distracting). This is under HDMI.

Now you guys have me itching to try MI:3 in my XA2 with my JVC 1080p. Mine is the 2006 JVC model WITHOUT 1080p input (1080i input max). It would be interesting to see if my JVC can convert it up to 1080p and avoid the moire. Probably not though because, you know what they say... Less (only 1080i) is moire! :D

Mark

I just compared them last week. Yes, the HD-DVD version is superior in everyway other than sound do some lip sync issues.

VC-1 does a better job. BD would be smart to use it more.

I just compared them last week. Yes, the HD-DVD version is superior in everyway other than sound do some lip sync issues.


Actually I though the BD version had a 640K DD track and the HD-DVD has a 1.5 mbs DD+ Track.

Moire is unavoidable if you are scaling down to 720p.
Sorry, but that's just wrong.

Of course you see moire with the Samsung, too, cause the Samsung is internally doing 1080p24 -> 1080i60 -> 108060 -> output format, just like the Toshiba HD-A2 does. You would not see moire when using a Sony, Pioneer or PS3, cause all those three don't use a 1080i60 intermediate step.

This has already been explained in the original thread.

Check out my screenshot thread comparing the two. The difference is just too small to judge which one is the "worse".

The staircase artifact in MI3 is perfectly visible on my 1080p projector. The problem isn't just related to scaling.

[QUOTE=Josh Z;10412151]The staircase artifact in MI3 is perfectly visible on my 1080p projector. The problem isn't just related to scaling.[/QUOTE

I've got the same exact problem here, Josh.

I realize this is a rather dated thread, but anyone had any luck in pegging the problem?

Is it the disc, or the player?

Piping it directly into my projector doesn't rectify any of the moire patterns across the Vatican walls.

VC-1 does a better job. BD would be smart to use it more.

The irony here is that the higher the bit rate, the better VC-1 gets. So studios could make releases look even better on blu if they used VC-1 and cranked up the bit rate.

At least no one is encoding with MPEG-2 anymore.

The moire on Mission: Impossible III has nothing to do with the codec, the bit rate, or scaling. There's a problem with the authoring of the disc (both formats).

If you use any output resolution other than 1080p24, your player will first decode the signal as 1080i and then deinterlace and scale it to whatever resolution you choose. That's how both HD DVD and Blu-ray players work. With this disc, an authoring flaw during the Vatican scenes causes the decoder to trip up and introduce moire. You'll see moire at any resolution except 1080p24.

The 1080p24 output is a "native" signal that does not go through a 1080i step first, and avoids this problem.

I also agree the HD-DVD version is better.

Nice to know m:i: III looks good on HD DVD, I picked up a used copy last month but haven't played it yet.

Its not a problem with authoring either. Its a problem with any output other than direct 1080p24. If there is another movie with a similar pattern of fine lines you will see the same problem.

I have never seen this specific artifact on any other disc. The 1080i output from the player's decoder is supposed to contain all of the original data from the 1080p24 encoding, just interlaced. It should be easy enough to deinterlace with a simple 2:3 reverse pulldown to produce an artifact-free picture. But there's something wrong with M:I-3 where that doesn't happen. It doesn't matter whether you have the player deinterlace it to 1080p60 internally or do it externally with any of the best deinterlacing processors on the market. The 1080i output is corrupted in those scenes.

Its not a problem with authoring either. Its a problem with any output other than direct 1080p24. If there is another movie with a similar pattern of fine lines you will see the same problem.

Surprisingly, we ran this scene through an Anthem D2 and output 1080p60 and the moire was virtually eliminated. Running straight 1080i (HD-A1) into the native 1080p display produced terrible moire in that particular scene. At that point I was sold on the D2. :D

You can look at a chainlink fence through a screened window and see moire just by moving your head.

Moire doesn't need interlacers or scalers to be observed. It's enough just to have two symetrical patterns overlay each other at an angle.

In the MI-III, you have that condition, first the staircase, then the pattern of the grid of the sensor that scanned the filmstock, or the sensor of the CineAlta if it was shot on digital.

Additional moire can be introduced by digital processing at the viewing level. It's that additional moire that goes away for some of us, and remains for some others.

I don't see a problem in the source authoring.

If what you see is the defintion of the staircase edges disappear or fade away in blotches or blur during motion, the problem is in the processing of the equipment at the user level. If all of the individual stairs are clearly visible and remain in sharp focus throughout the panning movement of the camera but you see a few faint circular arcs, that doesn't indicate a problem in the processing.