Today I got a new Denon DVD-757, which I think is very similar to the 1930CI.

When playing multichannel SACD or DVD-A, it apparently won't send LFE output to my amplifier (Yamaha RX-V1400).

Has anyone else seen this on the DVD-757 or 1930CI?

I've tried all combinations of every relevant menu option, also tried the initialization (reset) menu. Despite being configured for analog multichannel output, and speaker config. set to "subwoofer", nothing is getting to the subwoofer.

The entire playback chain including 5.1 analog cables were previously tested on another SACD player, and everything worked fine.

If I play the DD 5.1 track from a DVD-A, the DVD-757 properly outputs LFE via the optical Toslink cable.

I suspect some kind of Denon firmware problem unique to 5.1 analog output. Does anyone have any suggestions?

If I play the DD 5.1 track from a DVD-A, the DVD-757 properly outputs LFE via the optical Toslink cable.Something's funny since this is patently impossible.

Today I got a new Denon DVD-757, which I think is very similar to the 1930CI.

When playing multichannel SACD or DVD-A, it apparently won't send LFE output to my amplifier (Yamaha RX-V1400).

Has anyone else seen this on the DVD-757 or 1930CI?

I've tried all combinations of every relevant menu option, also tried the initialization (reset) menu. Despite being configured for analog multichannel output, and speaker config. set to "subwoofer", nothing is getting to the subwoofer.

The entire playback chain including 5.1 analog cables were previously tested on another SACD player, and everything worked fine.

If I play the DD 5.1 track from a DVD-A, the DVD-757 properly outputs LFE via the optical Toslink cable.

I suspect some kind of Denon firmware problem unique to 5.1 analog output. Does anyone have any suggestions?
If the player is not doing bass management (or not doing it correctly if enabled) you won't get any audio out the LFE channel when playing a multi-ch hi-rez audio SACD or DVD-A.

larry

Something's funny since this is patently impossible.
Oops, your right. I meant the Toslink cable carries all DD 5.1 channels from the DVD-757 player to the RX-V1400 amp, which in turn provides the LFE channel to the Hsu VTF-3 sub via coax.

So the signal path from the amp to the sub is working fine, but when playing multichannel SACD (which requires six discrete analog cables from player to amp), there's apparently no LFE output from the player, no matter how the player is configured.

Since a lot of people have the 1930CI, and the DVD-757 is supposedly identical, just curious if anybody else ran into this.

Unfortunately the DVD-757 test tones by design don't output on LFE, so I can't use that to check.

Oops, your right. I meant the Toslink cable carries all DD 5.1 channels from the DVD-757 player to the RX-V1400 amp, which in turn provides the LFE channel to the Hsu VTF-3 sub via coax.

So the signal path from the amp to the sub is working fine, but when playing multichannel SACD (which requires six discrete analog cables from player to amp), there's apparently no LFE output from the player, no matter how the player is configured.

Since a lot of people have the 1930CI, and the DVD-757 is supposedly identical, just curious if anybody else ran into this.

Unfortunately the DVD-757 test tones by design don't output on LFE, so I can't use that to check.
LFE is a movie mixing track. Most music mixers don't put anything in the LFE.

LFE is a movie mixing track. Most music mixers don't put anything in the LFE.
Yes, I know that rigidly speaking, "LFE" denotes only the low frequency channel of Dolby Digital 5.1 or greater audio material, and this is different from subwoofer output.

I was using LFE in the looser sense for a dedicated low frequency channel on multichannel material, whether SACD, DVD-A, or DD 5.1. This usage is common, but technically incorrect.

To clarify, when playing multichannel SACD or DVD-A music on the Denon DVD-757, there's apparently no subwoofer output from the 5.1 analog jack. This is regardless of how bass management is configured in the player -- SW on, speakers large/small, bass boost on/off, etc.

The player does identify the SACD layer correctly, as the other channels are present.

The player also outputs subwoofer information when playing DD 5.1 material, which is carried from player to amp via an optical Toslink cable. However the signal path in that case is different, as it's digitally processed, not analog as with SACD.

If anyone has had problems getting subwoofer output when playing multichannel SACD or DVD-A music on a Denon DVD-757 or 1930 CI (via 5.1 analog, not HDMI), I'd be interested in the details.

Update: talked to Denon tech support, they say no known problems regarding SACD/DVD-A analog subwoofer output on either DVD-757 or 1930CI players.

Verified entire signal path by cross-connecting player CD analog output to subwoofer analog input on Yamaha RX-V1400 amp; sub works fine.

Further inspection shows DVD-757 analog subwoofer output on multichannel SACD is actually present, just extremely weak; I'd estimate at least -20 db down. DVD-757 "bass boost" setting makes no difference.

Will post further updates later...

Don't forget about the "LFE bug" that some receivers and preprocessors (still) have. The LFE channel from a source will be -10db from the other channels. The processor is supposed to do the +10db boost. When BM is used and other channels are mixed in this can make the LFE channel -15db, IIRC. See this post/link: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=748147

larry

Don't forget about the "LFE bug" that some receivers and preprocessors (still) have. The LFE channel from a source will be -10db from the other channels. The processor is supposed to do the +10db boost. When BM is used and other channels are mixed in this can make the LFE channel -15db, IIRC. See this post/link: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=748147

larry
And many receivers have an adjustment for the analog LFE input. If both were wrong it could account for it being down -20.

OK, did further research. My Yamaha RX-V1400 receiver actually does have a discrete level control for each analog multichannel audio output, separate from the DD 5.1 audio output levels.

If I turn the RX-V1400 SWFR multichannel analog output to max (+10 db), it's still to weak, as measured by a C-weighted SPL meter, when playing pink noise on each successive channel from an SACD test disc.

The DVD-757 audio config also allows individual level controls for each channel in multichannel analog out. However they're attenuate only -- no boost.

If I set each DVD-757 output level to max attenuation (-12 db), leave SWFR at 0db, then turn up the master volume on the RX-V1400 amplifier to compensate, THEN the SWFR output level is about right when compared to the other speakers.

Achieving that took the combined +10db boost in the amplifier SWFR channel, plus an additional +12 db SWFR boost in the player, achieved by attenuating all the non-SWFR channels -12db.

This indicates the DVD-757 analog SWFR output when playing multichannel SACD is about 20db - 22db too weak.

I also found how to make the DVD-757 play audio test tones on the SWFR analog out -- it's not under the "test tones" menu, but under the "speaker level" menu, and only when you adjust each speaker level. After making the above adjustments, the SWFR level is then about 22 db too loud when using the DVD-757 built-in test tones.

This indicates a difference in the signal management of the DVD-757 test tones vs playing an actual multichannel SACD disc.

It appears the DVD-757 is attenuating the SWFR analog output channel when playing actual SACD material, and NOT when outputting the test tones.

I thought the SACD "Scarlet Book" mandated each channel have the same output level from the playback device? Does anybody know?

LFE channel is not part of an audio mix. Multichannel is 5.0 on SACD or DVD-A. The player is screwing up the BM.

larry

LFE channel is not part of an audio mix. Multichannel is 5.0 on SACD or DVD-A. The player is screwing up the BM.
larryThere are many 5.1 SACD (and DVD-As) music discs.

There are many 5.1 SACD (and DVD-As) music discs.
Really? They actually encode a LFE channel? Interesting. Is this the "norm"? It's contrary to what you would think be done for music. So if you do BM in a player or prepro on audio that's "pre-BMed", that might lead to interesting results.

larry

It does since it is hard to know exactly what the producer did. For example, most of the Telarcs seem to have redundant LF on the .1 channel since the main channels are still full range. Many classical labels do this.

OK, did further research. My Yamaha RX-V1400 receiver actually does have a discrete level control for each analog multichannel audio output, separate from the DD 5.1 audio output levels.

If I turn the RX-V1400 SWFR multichannel analog output to max (+10 db), it's still to weak, as measured by a C-weighted SPL meter, when playing pink noise on each successive channel from an SACD test disc.

The DVD-757 audio config also allows individual level controls for each channel in multichannel analog out. However they're attenuate only -- no boost.

If I set each DVD-757 output level to max attenuation (-12 db), leave SWFR at 0db, then turn up the master volume on the RX-V1400 amplifier to compensate, THEN the SWFR output level is about right when compared to the other speakers.

Achieving that took the combined +10db boost in the amplifier SWFR channel, plus an additional +12 db SWFR boost in the player, achieved by attenuating all the non-SWFR channels -12db.

This indicates the DVD-757 analog SWFR output when playing multichannel SACD is about 20db - 22db too weak.

I also found how to make the DVD-757 play audio test tones on the SWFR analog out -- it's not under the "test tones" menu, but under the "speaker level" menu, and only when you adjust each speaker level. After making the above adjustments, the SWFR level is then about 22 db too loud when using the DVD-757 built-in test tones.

This indicates a difference in the signal management of the DVD-757 test tones vs playing an actual multichannel SACD disc.

It appears the DVD-757 is attenuating the SWFR analog output channel when playing actual SACD material, and NOT when outputting the test tones.

I thought the SACD "Scarlet Book" mandated each channel have the same output level from the playback device? Does anybody know?
I still suspect you are mixing up the difference between bass management, LFE and exactly which adjustments control which.

IF you would tell us where you are getting the tones you are using for calibration it might help. Hoping you have a DVD with pink in the main channels and a separate track with pink in the LFE.

I still suspect you are mixing up the difference between bass management, LFE and exactly which adjustments control which.

IF you would tell us where you are getting the tones you are using for calibration it might help. Hoping you have a DVD with pink in the main channels and a separate track with pink in the LFE.
I have a multichannel SACD with pink noise that plays sequentially on each of the six SACD channels, including the SWFR channel. Just like the various DD 5.1 speaker level calibration discs, except it's SACD.

When it plays the discrete SWFR/"bass channel track" (I won't call it LFE), output is about 20 db too low. It's NOT just the test disc, all multichannel SACD material is similarly bass-weak on the DVD-757. However the SACD-sourced pink noise allows quantification with an SPL meter.

When I instead use the DVD-757 built-in test tones, the bass channel pink noise level is correct (if all other player and amplifier level controls are at 0 db).

The player is attenuating the SWFR track by about 20 db when playing actual multichannel SACD material.

Player output is 6-ch analog, so the amp is doing no processing or bass management.

Getting proper bass output when playing multi-ch SACD material (using 6-ch analog out) requires setting the amplifier SWFR channel to +10db, attenuating the 5 player output channels by 20-20db, and turning up the amp volume. Such outlandish gymnastics shouldn't be required. Something is wrong.

Re whether the SACD/DVD-A bass channel should have material on it, or should be treated like a DD 5.1 LFE channel (effects only), that's an artistic & engineering decision by the content producer. The apparent practice is players do bass management at a certain crossover, but all the bass material on multi-ch SACD and DVD-A is NOT in the 5 main tracks -- content producers often put the low bass in the SWFR track.

For some reason the DVD-757 is attenuating the SWFR track by about 20db when playing multichannel SACD and DVD-A material over 6-ch analog out. I assume the Denon 1930CI does the same, as it's identical to the DVD-757.

I have a slightly similar problem. I cannot set the HDMI audio out to multichannel. It is set to 2 channel by default and I cannot even enter the sub menu to change it to multi channel. Has anyone experienced anything like that before?

I have a suspicion that I can change it only if the HDMI output is enabled and I am setting up the player while viewing the OSD through the HDMI output. My TV doesn't have an HDMI input so I cannot test that, but I just wanted to throw it out there for consideration
Thanks
N

I spent the entire day testing the output of the Denon LFE. There is a definite difference in SPL from multichannel vs digital when testing DVE test tones as well asDenon Sonic Boom DVD-A. I estimate it to be roughly 10dB using a radioshack digital meter.

I read the link to the LFE thread a few post back but found it to be long and not very clear and organized. Is it stating that if the LFE is not corrected by the player then there will be an audible 10dB difference in test tones sent out via multichannel when comparing a decoded test tone in the receiver coming from the same source? (The test tone information provided was also very confusing) And, the difference can increase to 15dB if bass management is applied since there is an additional 5dB that comes into play correct? If this is true then that may account for at least 15dB difference heard.

One problem I encountered is that the signal is low such that the bass does not kick in automatically until a much higher volume - I am trying to compensate on the Rotel RSX-1056 menu. I must say that the picture on the Denon is not very good and suffers from mosquito noise (Is this macroblocking or are the blocks much bigger) and oversharpness. Secrets benchmark is meaningless then as both my Sony DVP NS9100ES and DVP NS90V machines gave a much nicer (less noise and edge enhancement) picture than this 'higher ranked Denon' BY A LONG SHOT.

I have the same issue with my Denon 1930 as does the original poster. No output from my subwoofer on DVD-a and SACD when using the analog outputs (no problem if using HDMI--I just don't have enough HDMI outs, plus no SACD w/ HDMI and this player). Interestingly enough, I get plenty of bass routed to the subwoofer when playing 2 ch. cds though the same player. Somehow, as stated above, the 1930 doesn't process the .1 of SACD and DVD-a discs through the analog outs. I'm going to search for a firmware update and report back.

Any luck with this problem?