I have a noobie question or two so please excuse me if this is posted in the wrong section. I'm looking to get my first HD service as I just got my first HDTV. I was comparing pricing on DirectTV, Dish Network and Comcast and it seems like Dish is the best bang for the buck. I assume there's some difference in the services (besides all the extra channels Dish offers and the free HD DVR upgrade) but I have no idea what those differences might be. Can someone enlighten me to a reason (besides cost) that I might choose one service over the other? Is there a PQ difference?

Thx,
D

I have a noobie question or two so please excuse me if this is posted in the wrong section. I'm looking to get my first HD service as I just got my first HDTV. I was comparing pricing on DirectTV, Dish Network and Comcast and it seems like Dish is the best bang for the buck. I assume there's some difference in the services (besides all the extra channels Dish offers and the free HD DVR upgrade) but I have no idea what those differences might be. Can someone enlighten me to a reason (besides cost) that I might choose one service over the other? Is there a PQ difference?

Thx,
D

In most situations, Comcast will have superior PQ. For details on your specific Comcast system you need to check the local HD thread.

At this time Dish (E*) has the biggest HD Selection but will be forced to sign a long term agreement. Long before that agreement expires, Directv (D*) will have a lot more HD Selection than E* and you will be locked in wondering why.

Thus, you need to decide do you want the Superior PQ or more what we call here HD-LITE in terms of PQ along with more HD-LITE Selection.

That's a question only you can answer.

Unlike 2 years ago, there is no one size fits all answer.

Odds are, if I faced your situation, I would take Comcast now with no comittment and use it for 90 days. If in 90 days everything is on track for D* expansion (such as the satellite not blowing up on the pad and successfully launched) then decide if you wanted to go that route vs. Comcast.

There are 3 basic things to consider when picking an HD provider:
Channels available
Cost
Quality.

Only you can decide what channels are important to you, and and what you pay for them. See the HDTV Programming Synopsis, at the top of this forum, for a general guide to what's available.

HD image quality is consistent for DBS subscribers of the same companies; all Dish subscribers get the same, all DirecTV subscribers get the same. Cable is different, and it can vary widely from area to area, even between service areas of the same cableco. For example, TWC subs in New York City may have completely different HD quality than those in Los Angeles.

Bottom line is to check the HDTV Local Forum, for comments of others in your area, found in this topic:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=453241

Well I guess that question is easy enough for me to answer. Not only is Comcast the most expensive, but I have history with them and would never use them again unless they were the clear and obvious choice. Since they're not, they're out.

So between D* and E*, E* seems to have better selection now. According to the pricing structures (I worked this out in Excel) without DVR/DVR service, E* is cheaper for the first 26 months, then D* becomes cheaper. With DVR, E* is cheaper well past 36 months (the length of my projections) mainly due to the free HD DVR offer.

Also, E* is an 18mo commitment where D* is 24mo. I'm thinkin E* is probably the way to go unless D* has some serious magic up their sleeves. The phone sales woman said something about getting a lot more HD channels by May or something. Any ideas what that is about?

Thx, super helpful so far!
D

Another option to consider is Verizon FiOS, which is currently working to expand its service area in CA. Right now, it's only available in parts of S. CA, but your options may be different in a year.

If FiOS isn't available in your area, then Comcast SF is the clear and obvious choice if picture quality is your top priority.

As far as satellite, there's no question that DirecTV will have the most capacity for HDTV channels later this year, provided their new satellites launch without issue. Dish Network's current advantage is temporary, and isn't expected to last another six months. DirecTV has already announced a host of new high-definition channels they intend to add later this year.

Do a search (either here or Google) and you'll find out what is on the drawing boards at either Dish or DirecTV.

DirecTV claims it will have virtually every HD signal available by later in the year. But at the moment, Dish has far more.

If sports is vital to you, then DirecTV most likely will be the way to go.

If you prefer movies, maybe Dish is it.

But John Malone, whose Liberty Media controls Starz! is about to (pending regulatory approval) take over control of DirecTV, so one would assume Starz! HD will be added fairly soon.

As Ken H said, it is all determined by what you watch. Are local nets in HD important? Sports? off-beat movie channels?

Both satellite providers will pretty much give you lots of incventives when you sign up. If you don't get a deal you like from one CSR, call back in a bit and try another.

You will often be able to get free, or close to free HD DVRs and lots of programming rebates from both the satellite services.

I see you have already checked into the the San Francisco local HD DBS thread. Good. But be selective. Generally those who subscribe to one servuice or another will try to convince you that what they have is the best. And of course it probably is -- for them.

The fact is -- what is "best" is determined by a variety of things, as Ken H noted. Your viewing habits are the most important.

What I or anyone else likes should be of little concern.

Good luck.

If FiOS isn't available in your area, then Comcast SF is the clear and obvious choice if picture quality is your top priority.Yup.

As far as satellite, there's no question that DirecTV will have the most capacity for HDTV channels later this year, provided their new satellites launch without issue. Dish Network's current advantage is temporary, and isn't expected to last another six months.Yup.

While I can't comment from actual experience on Dish's HD content, I'd look very closely at what they are offering. Many of the channels I would never watch, and you might not either after the glow wears off your new HD.

Both require commitments but one question I would ask is what are the early termination fees. It will vary with how long you are with the provider and you should be aware you can get out the commitment. Given the choice I'd opt for OTA locals, it's as good as you're going to get, D and E* both process the OTA before they deliver it via SAT. If it's an option by all means take advantage to the free OTA.

As to DVRs, you really need one to fully enjoy all the HD that' available, both companies have their good points and bad. Both dvrs have problems check out the various forums to ascertain if one DVR might be more to your liking than the other. If you've never had one it might not matter. I've had DVRs for 7 or 8 years now and I'm set in my ways.

I too hate Comcast but after 5 years with D I'm more open minded.

Depending on where in the Bay Area you are, you might be on one of the ancient 550MHz Comcast (formerly ATT) systems which only have the 5 major networks, PBS, Discovery, and ESPN in HD (no ESPN2, Universal, NatGeo, TNT, MHD, iNHD, or Vs/Golf). If this applies to you, picking any other provider would probably be a good idea. If not, I would second HDTVFanAtic's recommendation of going with Comcast for at least a few months until D*/E*'s plans are solid and you know exactly what you are getting when you sign that committment.

Also depends on what size TV you get. The increased picture quality of Comcast might not be visible on a TV less than 40 inches.

Repost from another thread...

Many high-definition channels are already aggressive with compression on their source feeds (supplied to cable and satellite), so extra compression on top of that tends to result in a noticeably degraded image. Take the example of HBO-HD below.

February '07 Comparison of Comcast, D* (DirecTV), and E* (Dish Network) from the D*HD-Lite vs E*HD Screenshot (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=704350&page=1&pp=30&highlight=Clarence) thread.
Robots HD cable:File Size Processed: 7.09 GB, Play Time: 01h:30m:42s
1920 x 1080, 29.97 fps (24.93 fps Telecine), 25.00 Mbps (10.46 Mbps Average).
Average Video Quality: 51.23 KB/Frame, 0.20 Bits/Pixel.Robots E*:File Size Processed: 6.73 GB, Play Time: 01h:30m:00s
1920 x 1080, 29.97 fps (24.89 fps Telecine), 18.00 Mbps (10.02 Mbps Average).
Average Video Quality: 49.16 KB/Frame, 0.19 Bits/Pixel.Robots D*:File Size Processed: 6.10 GB, Play Time: 01h:29m:57s
1280 x 1088, 29.97 fps (24.68 fps Telecine), 65.00 Mbps (9.02 Mbps Average).
Average Video Quality: 44.60 KB/Frame, 0.26 Bits/Pixel.The bitstream calculations are done by a program callled "MPEG2Repair": http://www.videohelp.com/tools/MPEG2RepairSo how much difference does that really make?

For comparison, I found the same frame from my HD cable:
http://crtforum.com/img/robots-c-th.jpg
(http://crtforum.com/img/robots-c.png)

Here's an unresized 256x256 PNG crop from each of the sources...

Cable:
http://crtforum.com/img/robots-c256.png

D*:
http://crtforum.com/img/robots-d256.png

E*:
http://crtforum.com/img/robots-e256.pngCable = Comcast, D* = DirecTV, E* = Dish Network

If you live in an area served by one of the Comcast 550MHz systems (formerly AT&T) mentioned, then quality may not be comparable to that above.

As you would expect, the differences are most noticeable on larger displays, where picture defects are magnified.

Wow, lots of great info here! Well let's see, first of all, right now I've got a 32" HDTV since I live in a smaller apartment and I spent most of my budget on sound. :D I don't really value PQ as the main differentiator.

That being said, I'm 100% sure I'd notice the difference between a 1920x1080 vs 1280x1088 signal. I used to work for a digital media networking company (setting up and installing plasmas and such in movie theaters and malls and such) and I learned to be able to see when one or two pixels of content were cropped or when the screen's scaler was set incorrectly. Of course I've got a 780p screen so I might not notice after all since it's going to be scaling down either way.

My brother has D* and a 50" Hitachi DLP and it looks spectacular (especially since he got the new HD DVR...dunno what changed but it looks much better!) If D* is the worst PQ (as shown in the last post) and I still think it looks great then I guess the PQ argument is right out. lol

Lastly, I've never had DVR so I don't know that I'd notice the difference either. I will, however, look it up like you suggested just to make sure.

Thanks,
D

"Noob Question - What's the difference in providers - D*, E*, Cable*?"

Answer: None of them can compare to an OTA signal from a small antenna. And, no monthly fees, no early-termination fees, no added compression, and you automatically get all the new-channel upgrades without ever having to talk to a CSR.

"Noob Question - What's the difference in providers - D*, E*, Cable*?"

Answer: None of them can compare to an OTA signal from a small antenna. And, no monthly fees, no early-termination fees, no added compression, and you automatically get all the new-channel upgrades without ever having to talk to a CSR.

Agreed, however look where he is located - the bay area - you know what OTA reception there is like there - even from Mt. Sutro - supposedly D* cannot even get a good signal of the NBC O&O (not at Sutro) and its one of the very few fiber feeds to D*.

Also, fwiw, I know several (if not all) of the major stations there (including Sutro facilities)feed their HD via fiber to Comcast.

What Comcast does to it at that point, I have no idea :)

Wow, lots of great info here! Well let's see, first of all, right now I've got a 32" HDTV since I live in a smaller apartment and I spent most of my budget on sound. :D I don't really value PQ as the main differentiator.

That being said, I'm 100% sure I'd notice the difference between a 1920x1080 vs 1280x1088 signal. I used to work for a digital media networking company (setting up and installing plasmas and such in movie theaters and malls and such) and I learned to be able to see when one or two pixels of content were cropped or when the screen's scaler was set incorrectly. Of course I've got a 780p screen so I might not notice after all since it's going to be scaling down either way.

My brother has D* and a 50" Hitachi DLP and it looks spectacular (especially since he got the new HD DVR...dunno what changed but it looks much better!) If D* is the worst PQ (as shown in the last post) and I still think it looks great then I guess the PQ argument is right out. lol

Lastly, I've never had DVR so I don't know that I'd notice the difference either. I will, however, look it up like you suggested just to make sure.

Thanks,
D

Remember that E* is on the fast course to lower their standards to those of D*'s so what you see above will most likely be changed dramatically within 6 months.

Thus, you will have more selection of HD-LITE on D* and no advantage to E* by the end of the year.

That is why I suggest that if Comcast is not a 550Mhz limited system where you live, you take that route for 90 days to see how this all plays out.

Wow, lots of great info here! Well let's see, first of all, right now I've got a 32" HDTV since I live in a smaller apartment and I spent most of my budget on sound. :D I don't really value PQ as the main differentiator.

That being said, I'm 100% sure I'd notice the difference between a 1920x1080 vs 1280x1088 signal. I used to work for a digital media networking company (setting up and installing plasmas and such in movie theaters and malls and such) and I learned to be able to see when one or two pixels of content were cropped or when the screen's scaler was set incorrectly. Of course I've got a 780p screen so I might not notice after all since it's going to be scaling down either way.

My brother has D* and a 50" Hitachi DLP and it looks spectacular (especially since he got the new HD DVR...dunno what changed but it looks much better!) If D* is the worst PQ (as shown in the last post) and I still think it looks great then I guess the PQ argument is right out. lol

Lastly, I've never had DVR so I don't know that I'd notice the difference either. I will, however, look it up like you suggested just to make sure.

Thanks,
D
You need a roof antenna to get the best out of these TV'S. An in house antenna just won't cut it.

Well I guess that question is easy enough for me to answer. Not only is Comcast the most expensive, but I have history with them and would never use them again unless they were the clear and obvious choice. Since they're not, they're out.


Depending on what that "history" is, you might re-think your decision to exclude Comcast in the SF bay area. A substantial portion of the bay area is currently in the process of being upgraded to 1GHz systems, the norm being 750-860MHz. This will enable bandwidth for as many HD channels that Comcast decides they want to carry, lack of space will not be a factor until such time as there is over 250 HD channels, something that's unlikely to happen in the next decade.

You might check the local Comcast-San Francisco thread for more detailed info on available channels and the current expansion progress. Also, many of us also have a sat provider, and as a general rule, Comcast PQ surpasses both sat providers and for local channels is virtually indistinguishable from OTA feeds.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10469400#post10469400
San Francisco, CA - Comcast - AVS Forum

You need a roof antenna to get the best out of these TV'S. An in house antenna just won't cut it.
I really don't understand this comment at all. Provided that the OTA signal strength is sufficiently high, whether one's antenna is on the roof or in one's living room should be irrelevant. I have a small (rabbit ears) antenna sitting, hidden, behind my flat panel TV and get perfect reception (i.e., no breakups). What matters is the signal strength, and if somebody (like me, 9 miles from the towers) can get good signal strength with rabbit ears, there's no need for a rooftop antenna.

I really don't understand this comment at all. Provided that the OTA signal strength is sufficiently high, whether one's antenna is on the roof or in one's living room should be irrelevant. I have a small (rabbit ears) antenna sitting, hidden, behind my flat panel TV and get perfect reception (i.e., no breakups). What matters is the signal strength, and if somebody (like me, 9 miles from the towers) can get good signal strength with rabbit ears, there's no need for a rooftop antenna.
Most people are farther away plus they have obstacles between them and the station.
Also with a rooftop you set it and forget it unlike rabbit ears where you have to adjust it every time you change stations, etc. I live 12 miles from my stations and am on a hill. I get 90% to 100% signal strength on all digital stations.

Time for a new HDTV provider
LOL
;)

Most people are farther away plus they have obstacles between them and the station.
Also with a rooftop you set it and forget it unlike rabbit ears where you have to adjust it every time you change stations, etc. I live 12 miles from my stations and am on a hill. I get 90% to 100% signal strength on all digital stations.I'm 15 miles from the towers, in a depression, and I still get all the digital locals with a VHF/UHF indoor antenna that I haven't adjusted for months. No, they aren't all at 100%, but I don't have any breakups either.

You need a roof antenna to get the best out of these TV'S. An in house antenna just won't cut it.Please do not make sweeping statements that can be wrong.

Many viewers use indoor antennas with good results. I have a friend in Detroit that lives about 15 miles from the general location of the towers. He uses an old indoor VHF/UHF antenna, and gets all 7 stations that offer HD, with very little problem.

Please do not make sweeping statements that can be wrong.

Many viewers use indoor antennas with good results. I have a friend in Detroit that lives about 15 miles from the general location of the towers. He uses an old indoor VHF/UHF antenna, and gets all 7 stations that offer HD, with very little problem.

Your a lucky fellow (or lady) if you can find one position for one antenna inside a house (especially in strong multipath prone signal areas) that receives all channels all the time without getting up and having to move it around.

Not that it can't happen. It's just not the norm.

That's what I meant. With an indoor antenna most people will have to get up to adjust it when they switch stations. With a rooftop you just sit and watch. No getting up involved.
Great minds think alike.

Please do not make sweeping statements that can be wrong.

Many viewers use indoor antennas with good results. I have a friend in Detroit that lives about 15 miles from the general location of the towers. He uses an old indoor VHF/UHF antenna, and gets all 7 stations that offer HD, with very little problem.
You mean they don't have to fiddle with it when they change stations? Not everyone has an HDTV.

I received 6 HDTV stations with my $50.00 indoor antenna and now receive 21 HDTV stations with my rooftop antenna.

My rooftop pulls in stations from 50 miles away. My indoor antenna did not even come close.

My rooftop pulls in stations from 50 miles away. My indoor antenna did not even come close.

So whats your point? Some people can get great reception with an indoor antenna. Obviously if a person tried with an indoor and did not get satisfactory results, they should move to either a roof antenna or attic antenna. No need to go through the hassle of running coax up to the roof if you dont have to.

-i'm in los gatos so we are a 550 area which should be upgraded to 1 mill in about a year from now. that's when my e* subscription expires and we will reevaluate our choices then. when i checked things out in november of last year, e* was clearly the best choice and had the best pricing. until d* gets their sats up and working with their new channels by years end, only e* can offer 30 hd channels. another plus is the 622 dvr which is as good as a tivo, which is to be expected since it is a tivo (sans payment of patent royalties by e*).

- no doubt comcast has the best pq, just not many channels and the highest cost.
- no doubt d* will have the most hd channels by years end.
- no doubt both e* and d* will continue to reduce the quality of their hd broadcasts in order to add channels. already a lot of complaints about the sats terrible pq on tnt nba playoff broadcasts. these complaints do not appear to be present with cable tnt viewers.

as for ota, i'm so far away from the towers with some hills potentially in the way i haven't bothered to try antennae reception. i'm waiting for someone who lives near me to try it first and tell me the results. just lazy i guess and the dish local signals are actually decent. so if you live near winchester and hwy 85, let me know the results if you set up an ota antennae.

good luck, hope this helps.

Thanks, that is a very nice summary of pretty much what I've gathered from my research. I don't have access to rooftop antenna since I'm in an apt. I'm in Foster City (20 miles? from Sutro tower) so I don't think an indoor antenna will work but if I can find somewhere to buy one with a full return policy I might try it.

What I think it's gonna come down to is e* gives a free HD DVR and d* charges $200. If I can get that $200 down to something REASONABLE I'd go with d* but it doesn't look like that's happening anytime soon...

D

Thanks, that is a very nice summary of pretty much what I've gathered from my research. I don't have access to rooftop antenna since I'm in an apt. I'm in Foster City (20 miles? from Sutro tower) so I don't think an indoor antenna will work but if I can find somewhere to buy one with a full return policy I might try it.

What I think it's gonna come down to is e* gives a free HD DVR and d* charges $200. If I can get that $200 down to something REASONABLE I'd go with d* but it doesn't look like that's happening anytime soon...

D


what are your cable options? i don't think foster city is in a 550mhz area so you should be able to get 15-20 hd channels. probably will cost you more than either satco but will give you best pq.

Comcast is the most expensive monthly. I haven't looked into their DVR offerings. I don't care super much about PQ since I'm using a 32" 720p LCD. Also I hate Comcast and will only use them as a last resort. They're pretty much out, for my uses.

I have a feeling I'm just gonna wait until June/July and see if the D* sat launches successfully and wait for a good deal on the HD DVR. My new Oppo DVD player is doing a fine job of blowing me away atm. :-D

Whats the difference you ask? Well in Central NJ Fios doesn't have versus in HD while Comcast does. Comcast doesn't offer HDNet and HDNet movies but Fios does. Neither offers the ST but D* does.