This isn't a war like the VHS-Beta war because it's technologically trivial to produce a mechanical unit capable of reading both formats. We've seen the price of all-format DVD drives go through the floor for the same reason. Even though pressed and burned discs have different physical characteristics that caused some incompatibilities, now a player that can handle all formats is standard equipment on a cheap PC. And the producers of this hardware did it because they didn't want to limit their market. Compare also the plethora of flash-memory formats and the N-in-1 interface panels that they birthed (I even have one on my Mitsubishi WD-57732!).

This isn't something that could be done with VHS and Beta. You needed two different transports, two different flying heads, two different gearing systems, two different sets of electronics... just too much expense in those fragile parts. Making a single head that can track either blu-ray or HD-DVD, and one or two hw or sw conversion systems, is a far simpler thing.

So I'm saying this isn't a war between HD-DVD and Blu-ray. It's a war between multi-format and single-format players. And as long as both formats have media in the supply chain, multi-format will see value.

This isn't a war like the VHS-Beta war because it's technologically trivial to produce a mechanical unit capable of reading both formats. We've seen the price of all-format DVD drives go through the floor for the same reason. Even though pressed and burned discs have different physical characteristics that caused some incompatibilities, now a player that can handle all formats is standard equipment on a cheap PC. And the producers of this hardware did it because they didn't want to limit their market. Compare also the plethora of flash-memory formats and the N-in-1 interface panels that they birthed (I even have one on my Mitsubishi WD-57732!).

This isn't something that could be done with VHS and Beta. You needed two different transports, two different flying heads, two different gearing systems, two different sets of electronics... just too much expense in those fragile parts. Making a single head that can track either blu-ray or HD-DVD, and one or two hw or sw conversion systems, is a far simpler thing.

So I'm saying this isn't a war between HD-DVD and Blu-ray. It's a war between multi-format and single-format players. And as long as both formats have media in the supply chain, multi-format will see value.


Well said !


Athansios

Here here. I think it is so odd that people claim an allegiance and post nasty things about the "opposing" camp as if they will be knighted for their service to one side instead of the other.

Chris Rock said it best. On the day OJ Simpson was acquitted, some ran into the street shouting "We won! We won!" Chris replied, "What did we win? Every day I go to my mailbox and I still haven't gotten an OJ prize."

Nobody won anything.

It's foolishness, really.

They want to experience the "Nyah, Nyah we knew (chose your format) would win". I have both formats. I only care that an HD format survives and thrives, be it both or either.

I still believe strongly that HD on a disk can only thrive if only one format survives. Unless convergance can happen very fast (like, it's obvious to the public by CES 2008 that the industry is going that way) I think that the software problems and prepondernce of players that only play one format will indeed make this a war, and worse a war that cannot end in a tie if HD disks are to replace DVD.

But rather than argue with me about it, keep promoting uni-plyaers. It's fine by me, as long as it happens fast and facilitates a replacement of DVD, rather than making such a replacement impossible.

I still believe strongly that HD on a disk can only thrive if only one format survives. Unless convergance can happen very fast (like, it's obvious to the public by CES 2008 that the industry is going that way) I think that the software problems and prepondernce of players that only play one format will indeed make this a war, and worse a war that cannot end in a tie if HD disks are to replace DVD.

But rather than argue with me about it, keep promoting uni-plyaers. It's fine by me, as long as it happens fast and facilitates a replacement of DVD, rather than making such a replacement impossible.

This hits on what I've said many times. The 'real' format war isn't between HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, but instead between HD-DVD/BD and Standard DVD. I've totally stopped buying ANY regular DVD's, and I now only buy BD and HD-DVD discs.

The HD discs won't succeed as long as there are two standards and the perception amongst the public of a format war.

End of.

You've seen enough mainstream publications telling consumers to wait and see, you know this.

I don't mean to troll, but what are the odds that the concerned parties could be persuaded to unify the standards under one banner? If there was a new Blu-HD logo, and a psuedo standard that basically said either-or, the format differences (and packaging differences) would disappear. But for the same reason neither side is likely to give in, this is unlikely to happen. Yes, cheap universal players will help, but HD has to do more to win over consumers who are happy with SD. The perception of a war, which will go on until uni players are more common than single-format, will keep some away.

Also, as long as there are substantial numbers of single-format players out there, there will be the issue of shelf space for stocking both versions of titles. It's a waste, and it pisses retailers off. Shelf space costs money, that's why things get dumped in clearance buckets.

The 'war' against SD can't be won unless HD really does present a unified front. A single winner, even if it's a new super-format, is the only way.

Not to mention the fact that over 40 percent of HDTV owners don't even have HD service, nor are they aware of that fact.

Education, not name-calling, will decide the future of the formats.

HDTV is growing in households at a rapid rate, both from a hardware and broadcasting standpoint. Consumers are used to their new tv's being able to put out movies that are a special occasion, and look better than their regular tv. But now, when someone can watch almost anything in HD on the major networks, are they going to be satisified watching movies that doesn't look as good? In addition, when the switch was made from VHS to DVD, you had to have 2 players under the tv, but, both new formats are 100% backwards compatible. J6P can say "well, my Vizio tv (I think they're a great deal, by the way, not a knock on them at all) can do HD, and I can use rabbit ears to get HD channels, and they have new DVD players that can to, and, they'll still play all my old stuff that I'm not replacing". J6P isn't going to care which format wins, as long as his player does both. He's not going to care about all the technical crap we do concerning the existing formats, he just wants to put a movie in and have it play in HD, no matter what it is. It'll be no different than when some movie studios put DVD's in those cardboard boxes instead of plastic, it'll have a blue or dark red frame, but either way it'll play. The studio's might fight it out for awhile, but once people can buy a universal player for a good price, I really don't think it'll matter to anyone.

an edge would come to the first to offer a player and recorder.

Third format? WMV-HD looks pretty good. Cheapo $40USD drive plays it. A problem would be to get enough "under the hood" to play the discs and do so inexpensively. Of course everyone would be under Microsoft's thumb and then there's that pesky "call out" feature that some content owners implement.

As I said on this forum several years ago, the fact that the "war" could well end up with
a dual format standard is what made the war. There is plenty of precident for that solution,
with DVD+/- and the litter of different format icons that appear on a modern DVD player's
face. Both Sony and Toshiba knew that they would either win, or become one of a list of
parties collecting royalties on a multimode player. This meant there was not really much
incentive to compromise on a format.

In reality, the format war is really a war, but it isn't a war between Sony and Toshiba.
Its a war between the manufacturers and the consumers (us), and we are losing. We lose
because High definition DVDs are lagging in the market behind standard DVDs because
of consumer confusion, and because the eventual outcome is we will pay for royalties
TWICE to each maker of the high definition standards.

An early casualty of the war, largely unnoticed here, is HD-VHS, which is essentially dead.

We lose
because High definition DVDs are lagging in the market behind standard DVDs because
of consumer confusion, and because the eventual outcome is we will pay for royalties
TWICE to each maker of the high definition standards.

An early casualty of the war, largely unnoticed here, is HD-VHS, which is essentially dead.

It has nothing to do with consumer confusion. At the end of the day it comes down to 2 simple factors.

1) How many people have HDTV? A heck of a lot less then those with SD sets, so...2) why would someone spend $500-$1000 for an HD-DVD player when they only have an SD set and can buy a DVD player at Walmart for $20?

...

An early casualty of the war, largely unnoticed here, is HD-VHS, which is essentially dead.

I find it pretty absurd to compare HDVHS to HD-DVD or BD.

HD or not, I'd never go back to VHS. Many feel the same way.

HD or not, I'd never go back to VHS. Many feel the same way.

Exactly why I didn't bother with DVHS. Sure I wanted HD content but not if it means rewinding and that after repeated viewings the quality diminishes. No thanks.

tape and hard drives are not the answer for long term storage the disc
still rules in that department.

Exactly why I didn't bother with DVHS. Sure I wanted HD content but not if it means rewinding and that after repeated viewings the quality diminishes. No thanks.


There is no quality diminishment with repeated viewings. Its digital...either there and perfect or not.

I have hundreds of 1080i HD recordings. Superbowls, The Master's, Movies, Concerts, things that will never see the light of day on HD optical.

Not to mention the fact that over 40 percent of HDTV owners don't even have HD service, nor are they aware of that fact.

Education, not name-calling, will decide the future of the formats.

You're only partially correct - education & price will decide the formats' future.

Many people have had opportunities to view HD, but the difference between sd and hd is not enough for them to justify plunking down hundreds of dollars for the next generation Sony 300 (when it arrives) or Panny or Samsung dual format player (assuming it's initial msrp is near the $700-800 mark) when they can view a good quality display by utilizing a good upscaling sd player that costs far less.

There is no quality diminishment with repeated viewings. Its digital...either there and perfect or not.

I meant that tape wears out when repeatedly viewed whereas disc does not.

I think I disagree with the basic premise over the long haul.

If we assume that some form of 'higher def' format will supercede standard dvd, then it becomes an issue of the media, in this case HD-DVD and BLU-Ray. The problem is eventually one of them will become the dominant format. HW manufacturers will stop making dual capable players, then people stuck with DVD's in the 'other' format will lose out as eventually there will be no hardware to play them on.

KF

I think I disagree with the basic premise over the long haul.

If we assume that some form of 'higher def' format will supercede standard dvd, then it becomes an issue of the media, in this case HD-DVD and BLU-Ray. The problem is eventually one of them will become the dominant format. HW manufacturers will stop making dual capable players, then people stuck with DVD's in the 'other' format will lose out as eventually there will be no hardware to play them on.

KF

I'm stuck with a couple of thousand standard DVD's. What if they eventually stop making a player for those when one of the HD formats 'Wins'. :rolleyes:

See how silly that logic is.

There is no quality diminishment with repeated viewings. Its digital...either there and perfect or not.

I have hundreds of 1080i HD recordings. Superbowls, The Master's, Movies, Concerts, things that will never see the light of day on HD optical.

Well said. If you want to archive your own high def recordings, it's the only consumer friendly way to do it.

It has nothing to do with consumer confusion. At the end of the day it comes down to 2 simple factors.

1) How many people have HDTV? A heck of a lot less then those with SD sets, so...2) why would someone spend $500-$1000 for an HD-DVD player when they only have an SD set and can buy a DVD player at Walmart for $20?
Guess what? HDtv sales are INCREASING. Walmart has a large selection of....HDTVs. What types of tvs get advertised in Best Buy and Circuit City ads? HDtvs. SD is getting phased out at every major retailer and HDtv is all over the place. People are buying them, prices are dropping.

Guess what? HDtv sales are INCREASING. Walmart has a large selection of....HDTVs. What types of tvs get advertised in Best Buy and Circuit City ads? HDtvs. SD is getting phased out at every major retailer and HDtv is all over the place. People are buying them, prices are dropping.I still see plenty of SD sets advertised in the sale papers at BB, CC, Sears, Walmart, Kmart, Target, etc. And they all have digital tuners, so it's not like they're old models.

So somebody must still be buying 'em.

I thought all SD sets were supposed to be eventually phased so that eventually, you had to buy an HDTV if you wanted a new set. Whether after being forced to buy an HDTV means you'll be more like to spend hundreds of dollars more for a source player or 5-10-15$ more for HD disks (vs. DVD) is another issue.

I thought all SD sets were supposed to be eventually phased so that eventually, you had to buy an HDTV if you wanted a new set. Whether after being forced to buy an HDTV means you'll be more like to spend hundreds of dollars more for a source player or 5-10-15$ more for HD disks (vs. DVD) is another issue.


This is a common mis-conception. What is being phased out by law is analog broadcast signals. The requirement is for all broadcast television to be a digital signal. That does not mean it has to be HD and require an HDTV. All you'd need is a digital tuner.

It's totally up to the TV manufacturers if they want to drop SD sets or not.

Andy

I have been away from the “Format War” for some time, primarily because there seemed no clear cut winner between BD and HD DVD, which kept me out of the market and largely disinterested in learning more about it. Recently, however, I discovered that the LG dual format player is readily available and, despite some weaknesses, seems to work well. That renewed my interest. Further, more are on the way.

I came across this thread today. I agree with its premise, which seems to be that there is no real war here in the sense of the Beta v. VHS videotape war because both HD DVD and BD use the same form factor. This means that a single drawer and disk reading assembly can readily be used to play both formats, and doing so is (relatively) cheap.

This makes sense to me. Thus, I cannot imagine that either format is going to be orphaned in the near future. That being so, why worry which format a given movie or other program becomes available on? It makes perfect sense to buy whichever format turns out to be most readily available and favorably priced.

As much as the players in this competition would like to end up with a virtual monopoly, as was the case with VHS, it’s not going to happen for either HD DVD or BD, it seems to me.

Has anyone ever watched HD on an old TV? Before I got my Samsung T5054 I had a JVC 32 inch standard TV. I get Comcast, have the HD DVR, I would ALWAYS watch the HD channels over SD. Although I would get letterboxing the picture even on that JVC was tremendously better than the standard def channels.

If I still had a standard TV, but HD players were affordable, and titles plentiful and I only needed one player to play any HD movie, I would buy an HD player the next time I needed a new player.

I'm eagerly awaiting a dual format player to come out and be under $500. Of course one thing I have noticed that would still bug me...blu-ray movies cost quite a bit more than DVD's, HD-DVD is close in price to DVD as they can use the same basic equipment to make the DVD.

Also, while there are still a lot of standard TV's being sold, there are almost no standard TVs over 32". Most new TV's for the family room being sold are HDTV, the smaller standard TVs are generally for second or third TVs.

I still see plenty of SD sets advertised in the sale papers at BB, CC, Sears, Walmart, Kmart, Target, etc. And they all have digital tuners, so it's not like they're old models.

So somebody must still be buying 'em.

I don't see ads with anything other than HD sets...Best buy's ad shows 19 HD tvs and 3 SD small tevs

CC's add shows 38 HD tvs and 3 SD tvs

Hey, Joe Six-Pack here. I can assure everyone, we've know about HD for quite some time. We even know something about this BD/HD-DVD "war." In truth, we could really care less what format the movies come in. As long as that thar' disc I hold in my hand will play in that thar' player in front of me, I'll be happy. Sort of like a CD/DVD player now; stick a disc in and it plays!!! Amazing.

Within two, three years tops, 90 or even 100 percent of all players sold will be dual-format. You can take that to the bank, and if you wonder why, you're not paying attention.

Doug

The HD discs won't succeed as long as there are two standards and the perception amongst the public of a format war.

What arguments do you have to support this assertion?

1. If there are dual-format players, "publications" won't be advising anyone to wait.

2. Looking at any DVD or CD player, there are all kinds of marks all over the
front of them. They didn't exactly play "nice" and love each other. The hardware
stepped up and did the job.

3. HD disc players are way beyond the price the bulk of the public is willing to pay. It's
likely only a matter of time when the price point makes sense to the HD tv owners.
The bulk of the public is still likely hurting from tossing serious money at
an LCD or Plasma HD. A year or two down the road when the dual-players
drop in price, the two hurdles to broad acceptance will be removed, while the
demand (based upon # of HD TVs being sold) will be there. When players drop
in price, and the 18.9% interest Visa card that was used to buy the TV is
paid off, I can see the dual-format players in very high demand.

4. If you pay $1k to $2k on a TV, perhaps you're gaining back some of your
small room, looks cool on the wall, is larger than your previous TV, AND
has a substantial increase in picture resolution. When you buy a Blu or HD
disc player, it plays a disc just like the $30 DVD player. The consumer CAN
get HD with a new TV without a DVD player (broadcast, cable, satellite).
You CAN'T get HD TV by buying a Blu or HD disc player. Throw on top
the lack of titles, expensive to buy, and not at the local DVD rental store,
and there are not a lot of compelling reasons to buy the disc player yet.

I do not see any compelling arguments that there must be a winner for
there to be HD disc success.

The only reason their is a "war" is cause we think there is. I'll try to explain how I see it. With the new combo players... they defeat the whole idea of a war. IE: if there was ONLY combo players, and the HD and BR disks were packaged the same... we would buy players labled "HD player" buy the HD disks, pop them in and they would play. Niobody would be any the wiser.

This would have worked pre-web.

For me, I'm just waiting for the combo players to come down in $ and up in overal quality of use.

Only possible downside is if a side wins, you would be left with disks and nothing to play them on. Although, if I tried real hard I could find a LD player, so a format may never die.

The only reason their is a "war" is cause we think there is. I'll try to explain how I see it. With the new combo players... they defeat the whole idea of a war. IE: if there was ONLY combo players, and the HD and BR disks were packaged the same... we would buy players labled "HD player" buy the HD disks, pop them in and they would play. Niobody would be any the wiser.

This would have worked pre-web.

For me, I'm just waiting for the combo players to come down in $ and up in overal quality of use.

Only possible downside is if a side wins, you would be left with disks and nothing to play them on. Although, if I tried real hard I could find a LD player, so a format may never die.

Agreed. As I said in another thread, if everyone had combo players it'd be no different than when I believe it was Warner put DVD's in those cardboard cases instead of plastic. Studios would use either a blue or red case or both, and you would buy whatever and it would play.

My prediction is that a few years from now, multiple companies will have universal players and they'll start to be available for decent prices. Sure, Sony and Toshiba might only offer players that play their format, but who's going to care when they can go buy a Denon or similar universal player, or you can go to Best Buy and get a LG combo player for $300-$500.

It's just a matter of time in my opinion. I think the big picture shows this trend in the future.

Combo players at $150 to $300. And the HD format will take off if you can play both formats then you can just purchase the movies you like, either/or, no worries if the player can handle it. And better store demo's people who are not in this hobby do not purchase on hearsay they purchase on what they see in the stores with there own eyes.

What arguments do you have to support this assertion?

1. If there are dual-format players, "publications" won't be advising anyone to wait.

2. Looking at any DVD or CD player, there are all kinds of marks all over the
front of them. They didn't exactly play "nice" and love each other. The hardware
stepped up and did the job.

3. HD disc players are way beyond the price the bulk of the public is willing to pay. It's
likely only a matter of time when the price point makes sense to the HD tv owners.
The bulk of the public is still likely hurting from tossing serious money at
an LCD or Plasma HD. A year or two down the road when the dual-players
drop in price, the two hurdles to broad acceptance will be removed, while the
demand (based upon # of HD TVs being sold) will be there. When players drop
in price, and the 18.9% interest Visa card that was used to buy the TV is
paid off, I can see the dual-format players in very high demand.

4. If you pay $1k to $2k on a TV, perhaps you're gaining back some of your
small room, looks cool on the wall, is larger than your previous TV, AND
has a substantial increase in picture resolution. When you buy a Blu or HD
disc player, it plays a disc just like the $30 DVD player. The consumer CAN
get HD with a new TV without a DVD player (broadcast, cable, satellite).
You CAN'T get HD TV by buying a Blu or HD disc player. Throw on top
the lack of titles, expensive to buy, and not at the local DVD rental store,
and there are not a lot of compelling reasons to buy the disc player yet.

I do not see any compelling arguments that there must be a winner for
there to be HD disc success.
amen,no one really knows the outcome of all this. alot of people are trying to make a name for themselves,saying why blu-ray will win because of this and hd dvd will win because of that.i will say this i remember when sd dvd launched.the players were 700.00 and up and with in a year prices were not much lower,why because there was only one standard,they didnt have to drop prices.now look at hd and bd,with in a year prices have dropped,big time. credit goes to toshiba for dropping prices for hd dvd.so now blu-ray has to do the same.plus now were seeing 32in lcd hdtvs 1080p at 900.00 and even 720p tvs at 500. its great to be alive.so call this a war or not this is now a price war and thats good for everybody

This is just a small battle. The winner will move on to war it out with DVD which will be a tough one to win.

What year will Combo players go for $99 at Wal-Mart?

What year will Combo players go for $99 at Wal-Mart?
2011.

*Not a guarantee

This is just a small battle. The winner will move on to war it out with DVD which will be a tough one to win.

The only way it would be a war is if the public outright rejected hi-def, and I simply do not see that happening. Because of backward compatibility, there is no need to get rid of all your old DVD's. Upgrade them or keep them as long as you like and buy only new titles in hi-def. This will be a simple matter of the public moving to a hi-def player when ready, so I see nothing to win or lose re DVD's.

Doug

One problem, the studio's will only want to publish a single format HD movie. Why would they want to take on making two different copies, that will both work in a dual player? If this happens, then one format wins over the other. The winning format would not require an upgrade to a new dual player. It's a pipe dream, to believe that the studio's will continue to sell both disk formats if this happens.

With dual players, nobody will care what format the movies come in. The studios can do whatever they like.

I suppose eventually the market will favor one or the other, but it's too late for a single format to win outright considering all the discs printed and sold in both formats. The only solution now is dual-format. There are no losers with dual-format except the egos involved.

Doug

I don't see their logic in 2 formats. They (either side) must have realize they might be investing in a dead format.

"50% of something is better than 100% of nothing"

Tokyo Drift.

An early casualty of the war, largely unnoticed here, is HD-VHS, which is essentially dead.

That was pretty much dead from the get-go. Few ever embraced the make-do-til-blu ray-gets-here mentality. It was good, it is good, but who wanted to go back to tape after random access? Limited and crippled out of the starting gate.

With dual players, nobody will care what format the movies come in. The studios can do whatever they like.


Doug

It needs no bigger explanation. In the mean time two separate players is in the reach of most videophiles.

This is just a small battle. The winner will move on to war it out with DVD which will be a tough one to win.
i dont think so in 2009 all broadcast will move digital/hi def only,analogs gone in some way it will effent these 2 hd formats,i dont know how ,just a gut feeling

Its a War between
The HD Format
& killing the SD DVD
Same way the VHS format was handled;)
LOL
You got to go, you got to go:)

SD is not going anywhere. It will just be broadcast digitally, that's all.

This isn't a war like the VHS-Beta war because it's technologically trivial to produce a mechanical unit capable of reading both formats.That is probably true, but it isn't reflected in the prices of the dual format players, which are more expensive than the combined cost of buying a separate player of each format.

Apparently one side (probably Sony, given their history) is charging an extra-high license fee if the technology is to be used in a dual format player.

There isn't going to be a winner.... Any evangelist that thinks that one format is so significantly superior to the other that the consumer is going to back it is nuts. I'd bet a huge sum of money on this: No format wins out, Sony has enough content to keep BD afloat on their own. Look how long the propped up the MD format, and the "Memory Stick", and lets not even talk about PSP movies... HD DVD has a host of others trying to prop it up.

My guess is a dual format player at around $500 will make big inroads... and the first sub $200 dollar dual format player would end it.

I think we're going to see cheap dual format players faster than anyone expects. We live in the age of a $20 DVD player and a $300 PC.

Sony will continue to market it's over priced BD players that fail to correctly play even their own titles... and old school HD-DVD zealots will continue to swear that their First Gen Toshiba's still have the highest picture quality... while everyone else in the world enjoys HD video in both formats at a reasonable price.

What year will Combo players go for $99 at Wal-Mart?

It's going to be a long time my friend, some dvd players are still more than that, depending on which on eyou buy

One problem, the studio's will only want to publish a single format HD movie. Why would they want to take on making two different copies, that will both work in a dual player? If this happens, then one format wins over the other. The winning format would not require an upgrade to a new dual player. It's a pipe dream, to believe that the studio's will continue to sell both disk formats if this happens.

Best point of the whole thread. The studios would go exclusive of their preferred format if combo players were all cheap. However, is that any different from one format winning and all the studios going that particular format.

It's interesting that some would jump at the $500 combo player, yet don't buy now because single format players are $500. If cost is an issue now only because the HD format is divided, then if there is a clear winner, the general public will pay the cost to jump in also. Stands to reason that confusion and division is holding back the average consumer!

Player prices of both formats are dropping like stones.

Prices of dual format players must surely do the same.

The only thing that can prevent a dual-format future is if Universal go neutral very soon.

Even then, HD DVD won't 'die' overnight. There are enough people out there with players to keep the format going right through next year, even if BD were to 'win' at the start of '08.

What then?

Well, if you can put out a BD player for $250 in late '08, it'll maybe only be an extra $49-$99 extra by that point to add HD DVD.

Who wouldn't? Even in a BD-only future, there'll be a sizeable number of people with lots of HD DVDs, and 1st/2nd generation players. Wouldn't a dual format 4th gen player appeal to them?

Steve W

Even in a BD-only future, there'll be a sizeable number of people with lots of HD DVDs, and 1st/2nd generation players. Wouldn't a dual format 4th gen player appeal to them?

Steve W
Yes, but only them. Small and stagnant market vs fast growing market with pretty much unlimited potential. As a manufacturer where does your R & D money then go?

That is probably true, but it isn't reflected in the prices of the dual format players, which are more expensive than the combined cost of buying a separate player of each format.

Apparently one side (probably Sony, given their history) is charging an extra-high license fee if the technology is to be used in a dual format player.

I don't think it's the licensing fee that makes the price that high.

Right now they are new units with lots of R&D being spent to produce a combo player, there is very little competition and low volume. This is an obvious chance for the companies to charge a premium for their product. As there is more competition from more combo players being released and the R&D becomes more a sunk cost the cost of combo players will drop.

I expect by the time we see bluray players in the sub 250$ market that a combo player will be 50$ more at most.

Much like +r and -r Combo players where originally more expensive but now it's standard and you can't find any new drive that doesn't do both.

I expect that bluray/hd dvd combo players will become the norm and studios will release on the different formats based on their affiliation and needs for that title. Shorter flicks with little extras might be on a 15gb hd dvd cause it's the cheapest to produce while a longer flick with more extras might be on dual layer bluray for the 50gb space etc.

Much like +r and -r Combo players where originally more expensive but now it's standard and you can't find any new drive that doesn't do both.


The combo players for this format war might be a little different though in that I don't believe much extra hardware was required (I.E. a seperate diode for the blue laser) to make plus and minus discs work correctly... someone correct me if I'm wrong. ^_^

I expect by the time we see bluray players in the sub 250$ market that a combo player will be 50$ more at most.

Much like +r and -r Combo players where originally more expensive but now it's standard and you can't find any new drive that doesn't do both.

I expect that bluray/hd dvd combo players will become the norm and studios will release on the different formats based on their affiliation and needs for that title.

Problem - there isn't a rush to put out, let alone announce the combo players. This lack of excitement for an obvious end to the war makes me think the industry is waiting for a win/lose outcome.

This forum is eerily quiet, not a good sign.

Problem - there isn't a rush to put out, let alone announce the combo players. This lack of excitement for an obvious end to the war makes me think the industry is waiting for a win/lose outcome.

This forum is eerily quiet, not a good sign.

Agree.

This is my first visit to this forum section. My gut feeling is the masses aren't demanding a combo player. I belive they are waiting for the winner. My prediction is in 12 months you can safely decide if you need a combo player or go Blu or Red.

It took 20+ years to get people to start to let go of VHS. DVDs have been around for 10. At that rate there will a new format to blow both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray out of the water in 2011. Can't wait to see what the summer of 2013 will bring.

So which recording of Blue-Ray or HD-DVD is better--VHS or Beta?

People are still afraid to answer the VHS versus Beta question?!

They probably won't answer HD-DVD versus Blue-Ray either.

I think the eventual cheap combo player could end the so-called war and stabilize the market, as long as the producers don't get too greedy and stick with their all-or-nothing mentality. Fat chance, perhaps.

My ideal scenario would go like this:

1. Cheap combo players enter the market.
2. Single-format players become obsolete. All player manufacturers turn to releasing combo-players.
3. Sony continues to release Blu-ray discs. Universal continues to release HD DVD discs. Warner and Paramount pick one or the other. Since the discs, codecs and specs are practically the same, nobody notices the difference. They simply become HiDef discs (Blu-HD?). Disc packaging ceases to become colour-coded.
6. Consumer confidence is restored.
7. DVD purchasing switfly shifts to HD. Disc prices drop.
8. There is much rejoicing. Yaaaah.

This, of course, does not take into account the possibility of mutual nuclear annihilation.

You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.

^^ John Lennon :)

Actually, the concept of dual format BR/HD players isn't really like DVD+/-R.

For one thing, the software and hardware requirements on both sides is radically different. Blu-ray uses a different aperture laser diode which is somewhat (though not hugely) more expensive than the one commonly used by HD DVD.

What's really the killer is the software support, though. Providing a firmware environment where both iHD from HD DVD and BD-J from Blu-ray can co-exist would be very difficult to engineer and maintain via firmware updates.

These aren't insurmountable problems, but they add to the cost and complexity of the necessary hardware and add extra maintenance on the part of the manufacturer.

Actually, the concept of dual format BR/HD players isn't really like DVD+/-R.



On the consumer end it is.

On the consumer end it is.
Not if the manufacturers steer clear because it's way too much of a hassle to maintain firmware that is both iHD and BD-J-compliant.

We may eventually see this sort of thing worked out, but it will be quite some time. Blu-ray Profile 1.1 still isn't in effect yet, and that's going to delay any serious attempts at dual format players for at least a few more months.

I think the eventual cheap combo player could end the so-called war and stabilize the market, as long as the producers don't get too greedy and stick with their all-or-nothing mentality. Fat chance, perhaps.

My ideal scenario would go like this:

1. Cheap combo players enter the market.
2. Single-format players become obsolete. All player manufacturers turn to releasing combo-players.
3. Sony continues to release Blu-ray discs. Universal continues to release HD DVD discs. Warner and Paramount pick one or the other. Since the discs, codecs and specs are practically the same, nobody notices the difference. They simply become HiDef discs (Blu-HD?). Disc packaging ceases to become colour-coded.
6. Consumer confidence is restored.
7. DVD purchasing switfly shifts to HD. Disc prices drop.
8. There is much rejoicing. Yaaaah.

This, of course, does not take into account the possibility of mutual nuclear annihilation.

You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.

Agreed! In this scenario, consumers become the winners and the vested studios for both formats become the losers. Companies like Warner and Paramount could easily initiate bidding wars for the cheapest royalty fees, author at a cheaper price, and sell at a cheaper MSRP.

Agreed! In this scenario, consumers become the winners and the vested studios for both formats become the losers. Companies like Warner and Paramount could easily initiate bidding wars for the cheapest royalty fees, author at a cheaper price, and still charge the same MSRP to make more money.
Fixed your post or you. Studios don't pass the savings on to the consumer, as a rule. ;)

For what it's worth, eventually the media will standardize on one format or the other. Unless you'd care to argue that PC drives can also incorporate the same technology for a minimal increase in cost. Speaking of which, even in the unlikely situation of dual format units proliferating, that leaves the deciding vote on the media to the HTPC market, where Blu-ray is a full generation ahead in development. Whichever format burns better discs (let's not kid ourselves about DRM, AACS, BD+ etc.) is going to come out swinging from that sector and push the market in that direction.

I have no doubt we'll see a number of dual format players released. I just don't agree that there's any point of stable equilibrium where both formats can co-exist in this fashion indefinitely.