Doc, dead bang sure. That is not to state that all claims of all chiropractors would withstand scrutiny. But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Indeed, rest assured, I could post hundreds, if not thousands, of anecdotes from my personal injury practice concerning the claims of MDs that would make your hair curl.

The fact of the matter is that there is a ton of evidence to support chiropractic, and studies are routinely undertaken and published to verify its benefits.

<snip>
Frantz, the amps that sounded poorly also measured poorly provided people actually made measurements. Now, if you can find some hard evidence...something in print or that you've scanned, it'd be wonderful to look at.

Chu

No! Several SS amps of the time did measure extremely well, yet for many audiophiles did not sound right.

These SS Amps all had:
Infinitesimal THD, usually 0.01% THD.
They had infinitesimal IM
Ruler-Flat frequency response.

We are talking about the 70's.

Now Michael Grant

I would be pleased if you could show me where TIM (or TID) was (were) mentioned before 1973 and would stand corrected. To my knowledge there is NO mention of this type of distortion in the Audio literature, be it consumer of scientific before Otala’s paper in 1973. His research came from the claim made by numerous audiophiles that Tube amplifiers sounded "better" than their solid state counterparts.. Dr Otala coined the term TIM in his papers (1973).
The audio press of the time, predictably, scoffed at this notion of SS not being better than tubes, since .. of course.. SS measured so well and so nice … However some people, Dr Otala being the better known, set themselves to find WHY did some people find these amps not good-sounding, not as perfect as the, then current, set of measurements would suggest..

The orthodoxy of 1970s SS design, indeed what was perceived as Scientific, was to reduce by all means THD and IM , the 2 forms of distortion considered of importance and the only measured then. The best way to achieve these spectacular measurements at the time was through generous amount of feedback.
Otala found a correlation between the amount of feedback and the “bad” sound of many amps that would measure incredibly well and yet did not please the audiophiles of the time. Again in his paper he proposed a protocol to measure what was from then called TIM or TID.

Are you sure? Many chiropractors do make a lot of scientifically unsupported claims about their practice. Not that Wikipedia is a trusted resource, but if we are to believe it, or at least one of its cited sources (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic#_note-mcdonald), "In 2003, 90% of chiropractors believed the vertebral subluxation complex played a significant role in all or most diseases." In other words, 90% subscribe to the truly "alternative" theories of chiropractic care. It does, in fact, sound like a worthy tangent to this thread... There are quite a few interesting links from internal and external critics of chiropractic medicine, such as this article (PDF file) (http://jmmtonline.com/documents/HomolaV14N2E.pdf) from a DC.


Here is yet another great link with tons of 'evidence' against Chiro :D

http://www.chirobase.org/

Frantz, go back and read my original post. I'm not saying that TIM or TID was a well-understood concept back then. Rather, I was refuting your claim that no measurement method existed to reveal the distortion. This is, of course, false, because one very important method did exist: controlled listening tests.

I'm not surprised that the audio press would scoff at Otala's work. After all, I think most of them are on the wrong side of the cable issue, too. On the other hand, engineers did eventually come around to his ideas---and corrected some of his errors, as well (http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=3155). If there is some heretofore unknown distortion caused by speaker cables, I am certain that engineers will ultimately discover it. I'm just not holding my breath.

(Note: that 1980 paper I linked to, which Otala co-authored, is actually older than that. The same work was published in AES, for example, in 1978. Delays of that length in peer-reviewed journals are common. For example, Otala's original work didn't make it into the same journal until 1977, I believe.)

The fact of the matter is that there is a ton of evidence to support chiropractic, and studies are routinely undertaken and published to verify its benefits.

Do you have a link to this database? If you already posted it, I missed it.

Frantz, go back and read my original post. I'm not saying that TIM or TID was a well-understood concept back then. Rather, I was refuting your claim that no measurement method existed to reveal the distortion. This is, of course, false, because one very important method did exist: controlled listening tests.

I'm not surprised that the audio press would scoff at Otala's work. After all, I think most of them are on the wrong side of the cable issue, too. On the other hand, engineers did eventually come around to his ideas---and corrected some of his errors, as well.

I wonder why Doug Self places no great importance on TIM, unless I missed it:

http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/ampins/dipa/dipa.htm

No! Several SS amps of the time did measure extremely well, yet for many audiophiles did not sound right.
.


Perhaps these audiophiles were biased? Used unreliable tools to arrive at their observations?
And, 'sounding right' is so subjective when one is used to the sound of tubes from day one.

I wonder why Doug Self places no great importance on TIM, unless I missed it:Hmm, maybe because modern components and/or designs are less prone to it? This is a guess; I really don't know---but I do know that TID is related to slew rate limitations.

Do you have a link to this database? If you already posted it, I missed it.
I've taken this thread on a tangent far beyond where it needs to go. If you want to read up on it, I'm quite confident you can find plenty of information on the internet, let alone in various medical journals. I'm quite sure the U.S. Supreme Court approved a permanent injunction against the AMA in order to support a medical field that has little to no basis in science. :eek: What a joke.

I've taken this thread on a tangent far beyond where it needs to go. If you want to read up on it, I'm quite confident you can find plenty of information on the internet, let alone in various medical journals. I'm quite sure the U.S. Supreme Court approved a permanent injunction against the AMA in order to support a medical field that has little to no basis in science. :eek: What a joke.

It's an anti-trust case. It has nothing to do with science. :p

I've taken this thread on a tangent far beyond where it needs to go. If you want to read up on it, I'm quite confident you can find plenty of information on the internet, let alone in various medical journals. Just one reliable link, please?

In fact, the U.S. District judge who ruled for the plaintiffs on the case said this:The plaintiffs clearly want more from the court. They want a judicial pronouncement that chiropractic is a valid, efficacious, even scientific health care service. I believe that the answer to that question can only be provided by a well designed, controlled, scientific study such as the one urged by the United States Congress' Office of Technology Assessment in its review of the New Zealand Report. In 1980, the AMA House of Delegates urged that such a study be done. No such study has ever been done. In the absence of such a study, the court is left to decide the issue on the basis of largely anecdotal evidence. I decline to pronounce chiropractic valid or invalid on anecdotal evidence.As well she should have. More scientific has been done since then, however, and I think that it is generally believed that spinal manipulation can be effective for lower back pain, some tension headaches, and similar ailments. But that's a far, far shorter list than was claimed for decades---and even by a large fraction of DC's today.

Doc, you're right, but I'm not sure it is for the reasons you may think. I think it was a jurisdictional issue. But if I remember correctly you can read the decision and you will find the judge noted evidence in support of chiropractic was intentionally withheld by the AMA.

Kal, the New Zealand Report cited in Michael's excerpt of the decision was, if I remember correctly, an almost 400 page report to the House of Reps concerning a 2 or 3 year comprehensive independent study in not only New Zealand but also the US & UK of the commonly held notion (then and obviously still now) that chiropractic was an unscientific cult which paled in comparison to conventional medical care. The authors of the report were virtually unanimous in their conclusion in support of chiropractic care for certain musculoskeletal symptoms such as back pain.

Honestly, anyone can do a google search and find a ton of evidence, both pro and con, regarding chiropractic. For the second and last time, however, I will repeat that this subject is too far off topic and, as such, my apologies to those tuning in to read about "high priced cable fanatics".

For the second and last time, however, I will repeat that this subject is too far off topic and, as such, my apologies to those tuning in to read about "high priced cable fanatics".

Ahh . . . but they are! ;)

Kal, the New Zealand Report cited in Michael's excerpt of the decision was, if I remember correctly, an almost 400 page report to the House of Reps concerning a 2 or 3 year comprehensive independent study in not only New Zealand but also the US & UK of the commonly held notion (then and obviously still now) that chiropractic was an unscientific cult which paled in comparison to conventional medical care. The authors of the report were virtually unanimous in their conclusion in support of chiropractic care for certain musculoskeletal symptoms such as back pain.Thanks. I was hoping for a scientific reference, not a review.

chiropractors are idiots. they are a self propagating breed, not unlike borg.

I can attest to the validity of chiropractic treatment. My last treatment resulted in the best hump I have ever thrown. Now in the interests of fairness, it could have been the silicon effect, as the chiropractor I threw the hump at had just received a major endowment and she was pretty exciting.

Edit: sorry, I meant placebo effect, my mind was elsewhere.

Honestly, anyone can do a google search and find a ton of evidence, both pro and con, regarding chiropractic. .


In respected Journals, or the ones that are from the Chiro organizations, similar to the Frontier Science Journal where they review zero point and free energy stuff.
Just because there may be some so called 'evidence' out there for it, how good is it?

chiropractors are idiots. they are a self propagating breed, not unlike borg.

why don't you tell us what you really think

Man I go away to Las Vegas for four days and this thread is like the Duracell bunny

Now we are onto chiropractors etc. Leave it to QQQ. I want to ask him if she was really a bone breaker?

As an aside and FWIW I am giving a 5 star review and two thumbs way up for the Beatles "Love" Cirque de Soleil show at the Mirage. Without question it was one of the best shows that I have ever seen. Only "O" IMO was better but only by a small margin. For Beatles fans and even not the show was simply breath taking. The nostalgia was everywhere and the ending superb. It will undoubtedly bring goose bumps and choke you up. To think what the world is missing now without a songwriter such as Lennon leaves only emptiness. For those planning to go, there isn't a bad seat in the theater but the best seats are in Section 205 row K.

Any how I thought that this thread is almost like a Seinfeld episode so I thought I would interject with the above.

In respected Journals, or the ones that are from the Chiro organizations, similar to the Frontier Science Journal where they review zero point and free energy stuff.
Just because there may be some so called 'evidence' out there for it, how good is it?
CharlesJ...I am surprised by your recent posts as everyone here has felt that you are a chiropractor by profession. What gives?

chiropractors are idiots. they are a self propagating breed, not unlike borg.

Wow,pretty bold statement.

Right now im going through a hell on earth with my back,went to emergency room,had x rays,diagnosis was strained hip & pinched nerves,was told to rest & it would go away.

After being in utter agony i go to see my doctor,visit after visit i keep getting stronger & stronger pain killers but no real help,i ask my doc about going to a chiropractor,he flipped out & said i would be injured worse by the chiropractor.

Visit after visit to my doc & countless x rays still no relief,now im completely off my feet with extreme back,leg & hip pain,my prescription from my doctor is to lay flat as much as possible & take the OXYCONTIN for pain, im taking the pain killers as prescribed & all they do is get me stoned on my a$$ & make me feel sick but i still could barely walk & was only sleeping an hour or two a night,i think i was passed out from the painkillers more than real sleep.

In desperation i go to see a highly reccomended chiropractor,he asked me to walk across the room,then moved my legs around & pushed all over my back,he told me that more likely than not i had atleast one herniated disc,he then put me in traction & pulled my back apart with a machine,instantly 100% of the pain was gone & i could walk without a limp,he then put electrodes on my back & shocked it with electricity for a half hour,i felt better than i had in a month.

The chiropractor asked my if i had an MRI yet,i said no,he couldnt believe my doc had not sent me for an MRI,i made an appointment to see my doc & told him what happened at the chiropractors office with the traction & electro shock,after he told me how lucky i was that the electro shock & traction didnt rip me apart he then ordered an MRI.

When the results of the MRI came in the Chiropractor was right,i had 2 bulging discs & 3 herniated discs in my back,my doctor ordered me to take physical therapy 3 times a week,when i get to the physical therepy office they diagnose a treatment plan for me & guess what it is,full body traction & spinal electro stimulation 3 times a week,they even gave me my own EMPI electro stimulator to use at home & ordered me a home traction unit.

An emergency room doctor who was an orthopedic doctor couldnt diagnose my problem or give me any real help,my family doc was no help( 6 visits) except to keep me stoned, the chiropractor which is lowest of all doctors was the only one who helped me at all & Properly diagnosed my problem without even looking at an x ray.

All the nonssense my doc spewed out of his mouth about chiroprators bieng voodoo was 100% wrong,i made sure to tell him that the Chiropractor made a proper diagnosis on the very first visit & that every treatment that he condemed is exactly what the physical therapist is doing to me,and its working.

If im under some kind of placebo spell that the Chiropractor put on me with the power of suggestion its a he!! of a good spell because i dont have to take the painkillers anymore.

In respected Journals, or the ones that are from the Chiro organizations, similar to the Frontier Science Journal where they review zero point and free energy stuff.
Just because there may be some so called 'evidence' out there for it, how good is it?
What part of
Honestly, anyone can do a google search and find a ton of evidence, both pro and con, regarding chiropractic. For the second and last time, however, I will repeat that this subject is too far off topic and, as such, my apologies to those tuning in to read about "high priced cable fanatics".
don't you understand?

panhead, I could give you numerous examples of similar scenarios. I'm glad you learned the correct diagnosis before further serious injury and/or exacerbation developed.

Understand, however, I also give you numerous examples of chiropractors providing manipulations in situations where it was unwarranted, caused otherwise avoidable serious injury, and was actionable for professional negligence.

Bottom line is that there are bad apples, be it from ignorance, lack of skill, overly liberal or conservative interpretation of the standard of care, profit motivation, or any number of other reasons, in all walks of life, including health care and high priced audio cables.

Wow,pretty bold statement.

Right now im going through a hell on earth with my back,went to emergency room,had x rays,diagnosis was strained hip & pinched nerves,was told to rest & it would go away.

After being in utter agony i go to see my doctor,visit after visit i keep getting stronger & stronger pain killers but no real help,i ask my doc about going to a chiropractor,he flipped out & said i would be injured worse by the chiropractor.

Visit after visit to my doc & countless x rays still no relief,now im completely off my feet with extreme back,leg & hip pain,my prescription from my doctor is to lay flat as much as possible & take the OXYCONTIN for pain, im taking the pain killers as prescribed & all they do is get me stoned on my a$$ & make me feel sick but i still could barely walk & was only sleeping an hour or two a night,i think i was passed out from the painkillers more than real sleep.

In desperation i go to see a highly reccomended chiropractor,he asked me to walk across the room,then moved my legs around & pushed all over my back,he told me that more likely than not i had atleast one herniated disc,he then put me in traction & pulled my back apart with a machine,instantly 100% of the pain was gone & i could walk without a limp,he then put electrodes on my back & shocked it with electricity for a half hour,i felt better than i had in a month.

The chiropractor asked my if i had an MRI yet,i said no,he couldnt believe my doc had not sent me for an MRI,i made an appointment to see my doc & told him what happened at the chiropractors office with the traction & electro shock,after he told me how lucky i was that the electro shock & traction didnt rip me apart he then ordered an MRI.

When the results of the MRI came in the Chiropractor was right,i had 2 bulging discs & 3 herniated discs in my back,my doctor ordered me to take physical therapy 3 times a week,when i get to the physical therepy office they diagnose a treatment plan for me & guess what it is,full body traction & spinal electro stimulation 3 times a week,they even gave me my own EMPI electro stimulator to use at home & ordered me a home traction unit.

An emergency room doctor who was an orthopedic doctor couldnt diagnose my problem or give me any real help,my family doc was no help( 6 visits) except to keep me stoned, the chiropractor which is lowest of all doctors was the only one who helped me at all & Properly diagnosed my problem without even looking at an x ray.

All the nonssense my doc spewed out of his mouth about chiroprators bieng voodoo was 100% wrong,i made sure to tell him that the Chiropractor made a proper diagnosis on the very first visit & that every treatment that he condemed is exactly what the physical therapist is doing to me,and its working.

If im under some kind of placebo spell that the Chiropractor put on me with the power of suggestion its a he!! of a good spell because i dont have to take the painkillers anymore.

I am stunned that an ER doc who is also an orthopod misssed your diagnosis.This is "back pain 101" You need to get in touch with Ron Party and file suit immediately.

In desperation i go to see a highly reccomended chiropractor,he asked me to walk across the room,then moved my legs around & pushed all over my back,he told me that more likely than not i had atleast one herniated disc,he then put me in traction & pulled my back apart with a machine....
OK, I'm not a medical doctor, but for those who are. wast the above action potentially dangerous considering that the ultimate diagnosis here was 2 bulging discs & 3 herniated discs.

Also, the fact that the original doctor missed it just sounds like an incompetent doctor. I'm not sure how an incompetent doctor proves the competency of the chiropractor, even if the chiropractor diagnosed you correctly. Hell, based on your description I could have guessed you might have a herniated disc.

Well

I would be the last to defend a chiroprctor BUT I am amazed that the ER Doc (orthopod) did NOT do an MRI on someone with back pain.
Truly an incompetent MD

well, maybe because his chain of events doesnt make sense...unless the othro was a resident, why was he in the ER? Those guys only go to ER's when there is a chance of wearing there fancy spacesuits for a compound......this would have been a simple outpatient referral from ER, and probably to a family doc.....

something smells.


I am stunned that an ER doc who is also an orthopod misssed your diagnosis.This is "back pain 101" You need to get in touch with Ron Party and file suit immediately.

i went through a situation where i had a massive neck spasm a few years ago and all the doc sould do was give me muscle relaxants. They were not really doing anything so i went to chiro and accupuncture and in a week i felt much better. On top of that i continued going to the chiro for a few months and also following his reccomendations on workout and such to strengthen my back and back pain went away for a few years.

Of course none of this means much when talking about cables.

I am just happy that my medical plan covers chiropractic.

well, maybe because his chain of events doesnt make sense...unless the othro was a resident, why was he in the ER? Those guys only go to ER's when there is a chance of wearing there fancy spacesuits for a compound......this would have been a simple outpatient referral from ER, and probably to a family doc.....

something smells.

Man,your freakin out,what smells?

My account is accurtate,why didnt an ER doc order an MRI i dont know but i have had 3 MRI's before the last one & not one was given at the hospital or even ordered by the hospital,could it be that by refering me to another doc for follow up they were simply keeping the system going, IE banging the customer out?

The reason an orthopedic doctor was dealing with me in the ER was that my x rays showed my left leg to be longer than the right & the ER doc wanted a SPECIALIST to determine what was up,and before anybody says that one leg being longer is normal the ER doc told me that but he was worried that it was an abnormal length.

And i was not refered to a specialist,i was refered to a community clinic or my family doc for follow up.

If anybody thinks that im alone in being misdiagnosed then feel free to google up a few forums that deal with workmans comp & back injuries & see how many others have not been diagnosed properly until they went to see doctors a whole bunch of times & been refered all over the place,and no im not on workers comp.

Man, I can't believe I opened this can of audio cables, er worms. I'm truly sorry for deraililng this thead, if only temporarily. I guess if panhead, the OP, joined in the tangent, well...

Anyway,

I would be the last to defend a chiroprctor BUT I am amazed that the ER Doc (orthopod) did NOT do an MRI on someone with back pain.
Truly an incompetent MD
Sad but not uncommon. In fact, rarely do I see ER docs order MRIs for patients with back pain until several months have passed. About the only local exception I've seen is at UC Davis Medical Center, which if I'm not mistaken is one of the few level 3 trauma centers around.

I just finished a case involving at 73 year old who was driving through an intersection when another motorist ran a red light and T-boned her vehicle, causing her vehicle to flip. She was pinned upside down for over 1/2 an hour until rescue personnel used the "jaws" to get her out. She was taken by ambulance to the nearest ER with complaints of severe low back, hip, groin and abdominal pain. While at the hospital, no xrays were taken and she was discharged with a prescription for Ibuprofen 800 mg and told to rest.

A short time later, she reported to Kaiser with ongoing symptomatology. This time xrays were taken which demonstrated acute fractures of the superior and inferior pubic rami (and a fracture of the 12th rib.) Studies have shown that pubic rami fractures in elderly people commonly result from strong T-bone impacts and it also is well known that rest for such an injury is not the proper course of care.

i went through a situation where i had a massive neck spasm a few years ago and all the doc sould do was give me muscle relaxants. They were not really doing anything so i went to chiro and accupuncture and in a week i felt much better. On top of that i continued going to the chiro for a few months and also following his reccomendations on workout and such to strengthen my back and back pain went away for a few years.
It's an oversimplification, but MDs do not "treat" neck spasm or strain cases. They will often times prescribe antiinflammatories and rest and instruct the patient to return prn. I've got 50 files in my office with precisely that prescription. Less often, they also will prescribe Vicodin or some other mild pain killer. Less often, they will prescribe physical therapy. Even less often they will prescribe chiropractic care. Some respond favorably to PT, some don't. Some respond favorably to chiropractic care, some don't. I've seen a heck of a lot of situations where, going back to panhead's situation, an MRI was not ordered until at least one or two courses of PT were completed, several Vicodin or Flexeril prescriptions were filled/refilled, but the patient continued to complain.

i was not suggesting that they do. it is just that it seems that for many of the daily average aches and pains, a regular MD does not seem to have the tools. Chiro and some alternative medicine does. massage therapy, kicking your ass telling you to work out to strengthen so you dont pull stuff, etc.

Nobody has the cure all and what is good (or works if you will) for one is not for the other. SO whether it is going to a chiro for (not real) medical help or buying some cable that does not clearly make sense... it is about what works for each of us.

Just do not quote pseudo science please :D

(i think i closed the loop)

i went through a situation where i had a massive neck spasm a few years ago and all the doc sould do was give me muscle relaxants. They were not really doing anything so i went to chiro and accupuncture and in a week i felt much better. On top of that i continued going to the chiro for a few months and also following his reccomendations on workout and such to strengthen my back and back pain went away for a few years.

Of course none of this means much when talking about cables.

I am just happy that my medical plan covers chiropractic.

I found out that the best treatment for back pain was a rowing machine, not a chiropractor, one with two oars, like a Kettler, same as the rowing machines of old in clubs, not the new ones with a chain. It streches your back and legs. I use it every day.

www.rowingmachines.com/catalog/shopping/Kettler_Kadett_Rowing_Machine

Man, I can't believe I opened this can of audio cables, er worms. I'm truly sorry for deraililng this thead, if only temporarily. I guess if panhead, the OP, joined in the tangent, well...

how can one derail a cable thread here?

it's impossible.......they never get on rails to begin with.

whenever i peak into a cable thread here i know that it could be talking about any d*mn thing under the sun.....like a top spinning out of control.

Good one, Mike. :) So true.

CharlesJ...I am surprised by your recent posts as everyone here has felt that you are a chiropractor by profession. What gives?


Some chiros know their limitations, others see no end to it. That is where the problem is, isn't it. But, hey, that would apply to some MDs as well.

What part of

don't you understand?


Ah, so you want me to do your work? You claimed, time to show. You weed through the garbage.

that is true, i had no back issues when i rowed in high school. Of course i was 20 odd years younger...

In any case, strength training is one of the best preventative measures for many ailments

I remember reading a peer reviewed study about a decade ago that found chiropractic treatment was more successful at dealing with some forms of lower back pains than surgery. However, I don't remember ever reading any other study supporting their findings, nor do I know how present data would support it. Furthermore, the study found nothing else where CM were of greater equal or greater benefit than treatment accepted medical practices (in fact some CM are down right dangerous if not done carefully, but the same can be said of most health practices).

PS I would not be surprised if another subsequent study came out and suggested that Physio was the best course of action for lower back pain.

PPS Regarding doctor's incompetence, recent data shows that in about 3% of the cases in the states doctors have worsen the condition of the patient by a negligent action, in Canada about 6%, and in Europe and Oceania it reaches double digits. Please note that worsen merely means they aggravated the patient's condition (i.e. the level of aggravation was not necessarily life threatening or potentially incapacitating).

R

Now Michael Grant

I would be pleased if you could show me where TIM (or TID) was (were) mentioned before 1973 and would stand corrected. To my knowledge there is NO mention of this type of distortion in the Audio literature, be it consumer of scientific before Otala’s paper in 1973.

To further add to Michael's comments, Otala authored, "Transient Distortion in Transistorized Audio Power Amplifiers," IEEE Trans. Audio Electroacoustics, vol. AU-18, no. 3 pp. 234-239 1970 Sept. The work dealt largely with what happens when you attempt to get large bandwidth out of small bandwidth systems. As to what the audio press and magazines knew, it was, as usual, years late. Tests as he described were already being talked about in the '60's and George Philbrick was talking about it in the '50's. That, BTW, was using vacuum tube amplifiers. So, while his work was a restatement, it was hardly anything new nor was its utility limited to just solid state. People have and will continue to create and market junk regardless of whether its valves or silicon.

I apologize for mentioning chiropracters. My soon, I think, to be brother-in-law has been going to one for over 20 years for pain in his back. I'm a big fan of the Tera Patrick technique with happy ending. Apparently, so was he, since that is why it looks like he'll be my soon-to-be brother in law.

Ah, so you want me to do your work? You claimed, time to show. You weed through the garbage.
Do the work. Or don't do the work. I don't give a rat's a$$. I could care less about you, let alone whether you believe me or not. So why the he$$ would I do any work for you? You are one of the trolls to which panhead makes implicit reference in this thread.

I go to trial, I've got a board certified orthopedic surgeon who also is the head of the orthopedic surgery department at the most prestigious local hospital on the stand, and evidence is introduced to the satisfaction of the judge and jury, about the science behind chiropractic, and the jury concludes in favor of its validity. This is a regular occurrence. The least of my worries is whether I can convince some internet troll of anything I post.

Otala termed that specific Transient distortion TIM only in 1973 in his AES papers.. This said and one point that should not be lost is the fact that an observation from some people, admittedly a few people was duly noted and studies were conducted which led to an identifiable parameter.

More to the point... I refer people to the original post from Panhead...

He gave it a name but it was known before that and not restricted to solid state.

I apologize for mentioning chiropracters. My soon, I think, to be brother-in-law has been going to one for over 20 years for pain in his back. I'm a big fan of the Tera Patrick technique with happy ending. Apparently, so was he, since that is why it looks like he'll be my soon-to-be brother in law.
:D

The least of my worries is whether I can convince some internet troll of anything I post.

Wow Ron I have never seen you so energized. Truth be told however the facts speak for themselves and I concur with your candor.

Ron:

If x-rays show no fractures and there are no ominous signs/sx of spinal cord involvement (foot drop/bladder/bowel).....then MRI's are really not ever done until several months out. The standard of care is NSAIDS and rest x 6 mos. So i do agree with most of what you say (docs who just write vicoden/lortab/etc = bad) but the general public (lawyers included) think an MRI shows something special or does something special and is needed for treatment, thats just not true. In fact, doing an MRI as a baseline test would likely lead to an INCREASE in the rate of MISSED spinal fractures!! X-ray and CT are the gold standard for bone, if those structures are stable, then you treat for several months and THEN MRI if indicated to rule surgery in/out.

An MRI in the ER is a waste of money, the resolution is so high that withing 4 or 5 days the picture can look dramatically different from the decrease in swelling.....

(and to panhead, I was referring to your ER care, not YOU when I said something smells, ie, someone was not following standard protocol/appropriate refferals)..

X-ray and CT are the gold standard for bone

I agree.

Here in California however the liability concern is so high that I would venture to say that most back injuries seen in the ER are all investigated with X-ray and CT to avoid missing something that would otherwise come back to haunt the MD with Ron Party's name as the attorney for the plaintif

Ok, i tried to close the loop. :D

Boy, just think of the name you'd make for yourself if you went after some of the cable companies and their claims Ron...I might even vote for you if you ran for office!

If x-rays show no fractures and there are no ominous signs/sx of spinal cord involvement (foot drop/bladder/bowel).....then MRI's are really not ever done until several months out. The standard of care is NSAIDS and rest x 6 mos. So i do agree with most of what you say (docs who just write vicoden/lortab/etc = bad) but the general public (lawyers included) think an MRI shows something special or does something special and is needed for treatment, thats just not true. In fact, doing an MRI as a baseline test would likely lead to an INCREASE in the rate of MISSED spinal fractures!! X-ray and CT are the gold standard for bone, if those structures are stable, then you treat for several months and THEN MRI if indicated to rule surgery in/out.

An MRI in the ER is a waste of money, the resolution is so high that withing 4 or 5 days the picture can look dramatically different from the decrease in swelling.....
Longtime, are you an ER physician?

By the way, the standard of care for what is nsaids + rest? I know a lot of MDs believe that is the proper way to treat, e.g., a cervical, thoracic or lumbosacral strain, but I strongly disagree.

And what about my elderly client, who presented to the ER and the ER physician did not even order xrays? This case, while anecdotal, is even worse than panhead's - at least he had xrays taken. I can post numerous examples of ER physicians who probably should be just put out to pasture.

Re MRIs, I generally agree with what you stated. MRIs don't always reveal the truth. And, of course, just because an MRI does reveal, e.g., a bulge, does not always mean surgery is indicated.

I would like to see an increase in the usage of weight bearing MRIs.

Here in California however the liability concern is so high that I would venture to say that most back injuries seen in the ER are all investigated with X-ray and CT to avoid missing something that would otherwise come back to haunt the MD with Ron Party's name as the attorney for the plaintif
My experience is that CT's are almost as uncommon as MRIs in the ERs for those presenting with back injuries.

And, OB, I don't take health care professional negligence cases. I'd much rather spend my time with the likes of Warren Haynes. ;)

My experience is that CT's are almost as uncommon as MRIs in the ERs for those presenting with back injuries.

And, OB, I don't take health care professional negligence cases. I'd much rather spend my time with the likes of Warren Haynes. ;)Ron, you know Warren Haynes!!!! He is one of my absolute favorite performers. Seen him many times-the best was in a small Kansas bar after a blues festival when he sat in with Little Milton (before his death). It was a great time had by all. I am in awe of you.

Boy, just think of the name you'd make for yourself if you went after some of the cable companies and their claims Ron...I might even vote for you if you ran for office!
Hey Chu, if I ever decide to run for office, I'd expect more from you than just your vote. I honestly appreciate your intelligence, wit, and the occasional almost poetic style of your writing here at AVS, and for that I'd insist you being on my election committee.

when he sat in with Little Milton (before his death). It was a great time had by all.
Sweet!

I'd give you more than my vote Ron if'n you ever went after them!

And, OB, I don't take health care professional negligence cases. I'd much rather spend my time with the likes of Warren Haynes.

Ron, the Warren Haynes album that you brought to a BAAS meeting and I subsequently bought is one of my all time favorites.

The last one you just sent me BTW is outstanding. Did you get my message that I left you last week at the office?

Aww, is the love back now? :)

The last one you just sent me BTW is outstanding. Did you get my message that I left you last week at the office?
Yes. Glad you're enjoying it. It is a difficult to come by import. Given the incredible midrange presentation in your room, I'm sure it sounds outstanding.

Understand, however, I also give you numerous examples of chiropractors providing manipulations in situations where it was unwarranted, caused otherwise avoidable serious injury, and was actionable for professional negligence.I'm sure you can also come up with a long list of doctors who have done the same thing (wrong diagnosis or treatment).

I'm sure you can also come up with a long list of doctors who have done the same thing (wrong diagnosis or treatment).
Yes.

I can post numerous examples of ER physicians who probably should be just put out to pasture.

Boy this is the truth! My girlfriend's an ER doc young enough to be board certified in Emergency Medicine. A lot of the older docs are not. She has real horror stories every few months. People die. It's really something to hear the inside story.

(and to panhead, I was referring to your ER care, not YOU when I said something smells, ie, someone was not following standard protocol/appropriate refferals)..

Sorry, i thought i was being attacked over my chiro testimony. :o

This back deal ive been going through has been a real b!tc# for me.

Well, let's put it this way. I definitely think that chiropractic has made great strides at cleaning up its practices in the last 20 years or so. Not perfect by any means but getting better. It helps that there has been some serious criticism leveled from within the industry itself, directed for example towards charlatans who claim they can cure psoriasis or the common cold or something like that. That and those street fair spinal exams that always seem to result in a recommendation for treatment. But again, some strong voices within the profession decry such practices.

If only the high-end cable industry had made similar progress in these last 20 years, we might very well not have this thread. For every Audioquest battery-polarized dialectric we would have, say, a Nordost standing up and crying foul.

I applaud physicians (and the nurses that put up with them), teachers (and the support people that put up with them), and all the rest of the unsung heroes of society, but my most support goes to teachers. They are today's unsung heroes as they are expected not only to teach but also to be parents, mentors and everything else and oh yeah they get paid so much for their efforts that they come to me asking what HTIB they should buy-shameful.

<snip>
If only the high-end cable industry had made similar progress in these last 20 years, we might very well not have this thread. For every Audioquest battery-polarized dialectric we would have, say, a Nordost standing up and crying foul.

I must say that Nordost rationale for the superiority of their cables although far from perfect or consistent, satisfies the engineer in me... OTOH I am very annoyed by Audioquest literature and marketing material. The perfect example of utter Bovine Manure aka BS. Not too far behind are Cardas golden Strand cables.
As a whole I do not like the pricing structure in the High End and particularly in cables where it is outrageous e.g the very famous Tranparent Opus Cable costing a cool $30,000... Not that my beloved Valhalla would ever be confused with a bargain but ... Man!!!

Objectivity is just a cultural construct.

:D :p

Close. Reality is a cultural construct. :)

Close. Reality is cultural construct. :)
Hey, man... you the same KBK over at the M5forum?? Cool!

I think we could go a long way to cooling off the high-end cable hysteria if we simply prosecuted companies that peddle fradulent, pseudoscientific twaddle to explain why their cables or other tweaks do what they do. We could proactively require that scientific explanations and measurements can be offered only if their audible effects have been documented in at least one article in a reputable peer-reviewed journal. (This doesn't mean the effects can't be in dispute, just that they are being subjected to standard review.)

I wonder how many of those companies would still be alive if all they could legally say was, "well, we really don't know why our cables sound better, you should just try them and see." Well, that perhaps and a few key impedance measurements.

Some companies are better in this regard than others, mind you, indeed, super-high-ender Nordost seems to be one of the least egregious vioators (though they aren't perfect).

Hello Michael. It's good to see a new picture of you and your daughter.

No one in the audio business should be expected to share their methods and reasons if they don't want to. You don't ask Honda, for example, how they eck the best performance out of their engines. You are not going to get an answer. You don't ask that of a speaker manufacturer, either.

These companies are small potatoes in the world of commercial enterprise. As well, keeping track of them and posting the minutae of their enterprise is not in the spirit of business and general conduct (both legal and ethical) on this continent.

That does not preclude independent labs from contributing. The capabilities of such a lab is reasonable in terms of financing as well. The party involved would have to be coming form a personal interest (specifically, knowledge, love of audio-obviously centered and ethincal) angle, but be benign, and open to it as a fundamental question - not one of initial bias.

This leaves few avenues but that of an audio magazine, a personal interest group, or the like - that wants to step up to the plate. But then again, why would they? It would be the same as dissecting any given audio product, in public, to the bone. I'm not sure any manufacturer would enjoy that.

Even then, basic testing is certainly doable. As with anything else.

I'll answer why I jump into cable threads with a vengeance, and I can probably answer for a few others here.
:)


Mechanical (microphonic), dielectric (temporal smear), skin effect regions (diameter/physical construction, stranding and coatings)-thus complex field, crystal junctions, termination, alloys (molecular junctive), cryogenic (lattice), termination (junctive/reflective), etc.

Other considerations.

Resistance and basic impedance being the least important.

Good to hear from you, K.No one in the audio business should be expected to share their methods and reasons if they don't want to. You don't ask Honda, for example, how they eck the best performance out of their engines. You are not going to get an answer. You don't ask that of a speaker manufacturer, either.That's great! I'm all for them keeping their cards close to their chest. I'm not saying cable manufacturers must offer full explanations for the superiority of their products. It's just that if they do, they can't feed us a load of bull. If they can't say anything verifiable---and I dare say most of them can't---they should say nothing. Instead, we get crap like Audioquest's "dialectric bias system" and the nonsensical explanations thereof.

They can do a voodoo dance around each cable for all I care, just don't try to claim in advertising that it actually does anything until the proper tests are in.Mechanical (microphonic), dielectric (temporal smear), skin effect regions (diameter/physical construction, stranding and coatings)-thus complex field, crystal junctions, termination, alloys (molecular junctive), cryogenic (lattice), termination (junctive/reflective), etc.Well... based on my criteria above, I'll take the first and the last of these and toss the rest out the window. And I'm being real generous with the first. That moves impedance a bit further up the list...

Mechanical (microphonic), dielectric (temporal smear), skin effect regions (diameter/physical construction, stranding and coatings)-thus complex field, crystal junctions, termination, alloys (molecular junctive), cryogenic (lattice), termination (junctive/reflective), etc.

Other considerations.

Resistance and basic impedance being the least important.
If speaker interconnects are so important and flawed, why spend $10k or so to fix them when you could do away with them entirely for FAR less money and have many other more important advantages as well? Powered loudspeakers have been around forever and do, indeed, in general, sound better. But it is not because of the elimination of speaker interconnects. It's because of the elimination of the dreaded passive crossover.

The disadvantages of the passive crossover are real and include insertion loss, phase problems and imperfect frequency shaping.

active or digital crossovers are not perfect too

seems best alternative is to solder cables directly to the boards and get rid of rca, xlr, speaker posts etc

active or digital crossovers are not perfect too


Agreed. But they do have far more options for correction. And they certainly don't have insertion loss.

my most support goes to teachers. They are today's unsung heroes as they are expected not only to teach but also to be parents, mentors and everything else and oh yeah they get paid so much for their efforts that they come to me asking what HTIB they should buy-shameful.
Sad, but so very true.

Well, let's put it this way. I definitely think that chiropractic has made great strides at cleaning up its practices in the last 20 years or so. Not perfect by any means but getting better. It helps that there has been some serious criticism leveled from within the industry itself, directed for example towards charlatans who claim they can cure psoriasis or the common cold or something like that. That and those street fair spinal exams that always seem to result in a recommendation for treatment. But again, some strong voices within the profession decry such practices.
I agree. I just wish there were strides made toward cleaning up the medical profession from the whores who have sold their licenses to the insurance companies.

I represented a guy who was a cable TV installer. He was sitting in his truck at a complete stop at an intersection at the bottom of one of those steep S.F. roads. He had his foot on the brake pedal. He was looking at his map, trying to find the location of his next install. Another driver comes screaming down the hill, smashes into his truck, pushing the truck about 100 feet across the intersection before it comes to rest. My guy suffered a fractured ankle, which was casted. Over a year later, during the course of the litigation, the insurance company had my guy examined by an MD, who under penalty of perjury testified my guy could have returned to work one week following the collision. In other words, with his ankle cast he could climb telephone poles! Upon hearing that "expert" opinion people literally were laughing out loud. That physician continues to practice medicine in S.F. to this day.

Good to hear from you, K.That's great! I'm all for them keeping their cards close to their chest. I'm not saying cable manufacturers must offer full explanations for the superiority of their products. It's just that if they do, they can't feed us a load of bull. If they can't say anything verifiable---and I dare say most of them can't---they should say nothing. Instead, we get crap like Audioquest's "dialectric bias system" and the nonsensical explanations thereof.

I'm all for distraction, misdirection, and misconception by inventive business...to the public or professionals (academic or industry). My personal tactic, which is is utilized by many companies (to maintain and secure their technological futures) is to create enough bovinefecal smoke and mirrors to load a dump truck. At the same time, that pile of dung has enough technology to hang a hat on. But it still tells NOTHING to the competition.

It's always best to have a multi-layered response that disallows competition to 'follow' where you may be going, but..still be able to put the given customer in front of an audio system... listening to the cables..with that all important piece of (white) paper in their clutches. It's hard to sell, for example, a given set of $10k mono-block amplifiers without a bit of glossy sheets of paper for the potential buyer to clutch.

If the cable is found to sound good by the given consumer, that's enough for me. I rationalize their response via the system used and that gives me a decent hint of what the given cable may or may not be doing.

If you cannot personally buy or understand the product without every single aspect being spelled out for you, then don't buy it, or don't support it.

But the manufacturer of such owes you .....NOTHING. There is no reason whatsoever to trash them for this situation.

Some are honestly trying to keep their intellectual enterprise out of the hands of others, so they can capitalize on their own understandings... in their business endeavors of the future....instead of their competition doing it for them.

Some are outright idiots pretending that they know, or fallaciously believe that they know something. The task of differentiating these differing groups is not as simple as it may seem. Nor is it good etiquette (on any level) to start trying to label them in public.

This would be similar to attempting to label each and every individual in one's current immediate home neighborhood and have them wear shirts or makers on their lawn..which state their ethical and moral considerations..as perceived..by you. Now, who or what, pray tell, covers the issue of one's personal limitations and capacities???? hhhmmmm???? And one's personal capacity to create a point of 'judgement' and pass that upon others, and make it stick for the viewpoint of everyone else?

This sort of thing can emerge from and derives from a very dangerous point in some individuals personal makeup. Part of it is the desire to have everything in the world perfectly labeled and ordered. Internal security issues and the like. Ordered realities, etc. Humanity is as random and disordered as any other part of this chaotic universe.

Deal with it. Learn to surf. Or drown. :)

Again, K, I'm all for trade secrets. It's trade bullsh!t I detest :) My criteria stated above are simple and verifiable. No need to drag a bunch of postmodern nonsense into it, which is what you're trying to do. All I'm saying is: say only what you're willing to back up, and keep the rest quiet.

Once again, that counts for nothing. Companies and people can do what they want, within whatever given point/limit/range of reason the reactive group may limit the situation with or by.

What seems like bull to you... may merely be distraction. Or simply outside your particular capacity to understand. I've not read this stuff, myself.

What is more telling than anything, is your lack of desire to let it go.

Once again, no need to give anyone any hints or maps to or for anything. Business can get ugly. Best to keep those cards close. If that irritates some, as it seems to be doing to you..then so be it. Such is life.

Too bad for you. :)

Too bad for you.
No... too bad for the guy who wastes his money on a pill some company claims will enable his M5 to get 25% to 40% better fuel mileage because he views the laws of thermodynamics as mere "guidelines".

Yes. Too bad for him as well. Individuals, in the end, are responsible for their own ass. Ignorance is no excuse. You will be hoisted by your own ass, at the end of the given lesson. How high you are lifted, is a matter of personal ability, intelligence, awareness, etc.

In case you guys are wondering what he is talking about, let's take a cursory look:

http://mlmblog.typepad.com/bioperformance/

This, from the article:

Further evidence of a pyramid scheme was provided by Romero, the company's Vice President and Co-Founder, who admitted to selling BioPerformance for as much as $50 a bottle, despite its comparatively low $4 manufacturing cost. The defendants' dramatic markup on their worthless product, coupled with their downline marketing strategy, indicate they were organizing an elaborate, illegal, and unsustainable pyramid scheme.

By that criteria, the entire US pharmaceutical industry is an insane pyramid scheme and should have been decimated to hell.....a long time ago.

In case you guys are wondering what he is talking about, let's take a cursory look:

http://mlmblog.typepad.com/bioperformance/

Thanks for the link. I knew they had been busted but didn't have the details.

Again someone explain how a pasive AC cable "cleans" the AC? As one of the "hi" end companies claim.

That right there is the biggest pile of crap, and I would be the first to help put an end to the lies these people spread.

What seems like bull to you... may merely be distraction. Or simply outside your particular capacity to understand.Ken, that's your tiringly typical response to this kind of thing. But it's just dumb. Yes, there is certainly a bleeding edge here, a gray area there, where I have to step back and say I don't know what's going on. But it is simply indisputable that there is a wealth of pure, unadulterated, unqualified, unambiguous BULLSH!T being peddled in high-end audio. I am certain at least some of the peddlers are well aware that's what they're selling, too. The others are just deluded beyond belief.

speco2003, there's no use in explaining, it's outside of your capacity to understand.

speco2003, there's no use in explaining, it's outside of your capacity to understand.

I see they got you too. :D

I'm all for distraction, misdirection, and misconception by inventive business...to the public or professionals (academic or industry). My personal tactic, which is is utilized by many companies (to maintain and secure their technological futures) is to create enough bovinefecal smoke and mirrors to load a dump truck. At the same time, that pile of dung has enough technology to hang a hat on. But it still tells NOTHING to the competition.

It's always best to have a multi-layered response that disallows competition to 'follow' where you may be going, but..still be able to put the given customer in front of an audio system... listening to the cables..with that all important piece of (white) paper in their clutches. It's hard to sell, for example, a given set of $10k mono-block amplifiers without a bit of glossy sheets of paper for the potential buyer to clutch.

If the cable is found to sound good by the given consumer, that's enough for me. I rationalize their response via the system used and that gives me a decent hint of what the given cable may or may not be doing.

If you cannot personally buy or understand the product without every single aspect being spelled out for you, then don't buy it, or don't support it.

But the manufacturer of such owes you .....NOTHING. There is no reason whatsoever to trash them for this situation.

Some are honestly trying to keep their intellectual enterprise out of the hands of others, so they can capitalize on their own understandings... in their business endeavors of the future....instead of their competition doing it for them.

Some are outright idiots pretending that they know, or fallaciously believe that they know something. The task of differentiating these differing groups is not as simple as it may seem. Nor is it good etiquette (on any level) to start trying to label them in public.

This would be similar to attempting to label each and every individual in one's current immediate home neighborhood and have them wear shirts or makers on their lawn..which state their ethical and moral considerations..as perceived..by you. Now, who or what, pray tell, covers the issue of one's personal limitations and capacities???? hhhmmmm???? And one's personal capacity to create a point of 'judgement' and pass that upon others, and make it stick for the viewpoint of everyone else?

This sort of thing can emerge from and derives from a very dangerous point in some individuals personal makeup. Part of it is the desire to have everything in the world perfectly labeled and ordered. Internal security issues and the like. Ordered realities, etc. Humanity is as random and disordered as any other part of this chaotic universe.

Deal with it. Learn to surf. Or drown. :)

Would anyone want to live in a world where this type of thinking was ascendent? Perhaps we already do and I am too naive to see it. Let me see if I can summarize...

1) It is ok to sell a product with BS.
2) It is a breach of etiquette (on any level) to criticize the BS used to sell said product because the BS may or may not serve a legitimate purpose.
3) Those who criticize BS have a dangerous personality flaw.
4) Consumers should live with the consequences of falling prey to BS and have nobody to blame but themselves for not distinguishing between real BS from BS used as competitive subterfuge.

In summation... Put a bunch of meaningless words in front of the consumer. After reading the complicated yet colorful brochure, if they think they hear something different, wonderful. If not, next...

Yup. i think that you have it

panhead

I agree 100% with your post.

The problem in my opinion stems from the exuberant self-importance of so many, not just in audio circles but in all walks of life (e.ga., Environmentalists owning private jets, Gun-Control Celebrities encircled by their 9mm toting body-guards.)

In all places there are people who think their opinions/beliefs/knowledge/understanding is somehow more important, more "correct" than others.

I can tell you from personal experience (I've spent most of my life in biotech) that knowledge and understanding evolve, even in the face of well designed randomized, placebo controlled double-blinded trials. To think otherwise is not scientific but egocentric blindness. Vioxx, estrogen replacement therapy, Evista, Natrecor, ad nauseum...

Nobody in their right mind denies facts (e.g., 2+2=4), however wether an audio cable sounds better is hardly confined to the realm of science/fact. If somebody "really" wanted to figure this out they would simply blindfold a person, hook them up to a brain magnetometer or PET scan and watch their neuronal activity when listening to two different cables under identical conditions. If the scans of their auditory centers are different -- they are -- in fact -- hearing a difference. All the rest of this is pseudo-scientific verbal masturbation.

Dead horses anyone?
Great information. My experience in the field of Experimental Psychology has produced similiar observations. Read through the entire thread only because I enjoyed your post. Not interested in the debate however.

Thanks.

Bulldogger's comments about experimental testing are one reason I have sharpened my arguments about these high-end audio charlatans. Bulldogger's thesis, if I remember correctly, is basically that the whole double-blind testing methodology is flawed and imperfect, and as such is not a reasonable basis for establishing the truth or falsity of audibility claims. In particular, (and if I'm wrong I apologize) the tests mask differences that might genuinely be heard in less intimidating testing environments.

I'm not sure I accept the argument, but it doesn't alter my main point one bit. As I've said above, it's one thing to say "our cable/tweak/crystal does this... just listen and see for yourself." And it's another thing altogether to offer up some nonsensical pseudoscientific reason why it does that. Did anyone even try to read the article How the Intelligent Chip Works---The Definitive Explanation" (http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina64.htm) I posted awhile back? What a load! Here's the summary for you:The IC works quantum mechanically, via coherent quantum superposition and quantum entanglement. Two coherent light sources (the CD player laser and the Q-dots in the IC) interact strongly with the atoms in the CD's polycarbonate layer to produce long-lasting, superior optical transparency, thus better optical signal to noise ratio (OSNR) during the laser-reading process for better sound.

CD laser light escapes the player through a number of small holes, unused input/output jacks and narrow gaps in the player case. The emitted light from the quantum dot arrays in the IC combines with the CD laser light that is everywhere in the room and inside the player; the commingled light interacts with the CD's polycarbonate material, improving its optical characteristics (transparency). The new Intelligent Box - the next generation Intelligent Chip, so to speak - with quantum material and light source inside the box, lends credence to the essential points of this Definitive Explanation of How the Intelligent Chip Works.Let's be clear here. High-powered minds across the world are looking into the use of quantum dots for a variety of applications, from everything to visual displays to efficient lighting to tumor detection. Let me repeat, they are looking into these applications; as far as I know none of them have yet matured. It is utterly laughable for these frauds to claim that they're harnessing quantum dots in such a precise and well-defined way to improve the optical properties of a CD. Not only that, but they have matured this quantum dot technology to such a degree that they offer you two different strengths---one to upgrade 10 CDs, the other to upgrade 30!

Sure, our knowlewdge and understanding "evolves". But some high-end audio companies just pull crap out of thin air.

Michale

As much as I am in the other camp (subjectivists) I have to agree with you ... This is utter BS.. Man! What bothers me the most is the prevalence of such BS products in the High-End Audio world : "Dialectric" from Audioquest , Tice Clocks, Harmonix dots, Mpingo Blocks, Shakti Stone..

In my book the Tice Clock reigned supreme amongst the greatest BS/Crap in Audio but it looks like the people at Machinadynamica have matched it...

In my book the Tice Clock reigned supreme amongst the greatest BS/Crap in Audio but it looks like the people at Machinadynamica have matched it...

Yup,machina dynamica takes the cake,kinda like buying a pet rock.

Anybody who buys crap like that wants to be fooled or tricked,how can an outlet cover change the sound from a system,this is why i believe its best to leave those who believe in that kinda tweeky crap alone,if a guy buys an outlet cover to improve his system does anybody really think they can talk some sense to them?

Why not let them have their fun with their gizmos>

My animus is not directed at those who believe the fraud, panhead; rather those that peddle it. I'm sorry, I just don't think it's OK to just let them keep ripping people off. Having said that your reasoning is why I am trying to be more careful with my arguments moving forward, to focus less on listening tests and more on deceptive marketing and peddling of pseudoscience. Because the former targets the buyers, the listeners, the hobbyists, who are reasonably innocent here; and the latter targets the manufacturers who are the real problem.

how can an outlet cover change the sound from a system

you rang?

actually; i'm not sure the degree of effect from the outlet cover compared to the duplex outlet.....but the combination of the two was/is amazing.

BTW, who cares why?

when i purchased these i did not really care too much how they worked. i just allowed my friend to install them with the agreement that if i did not like them he would remove them and not charge me. i was quite skeptical.....but he was the one that had to sit on the floor for 90 minutes to install 5 of them.

that was a month ago. i've had 5 visitors since then that i've done the A/B for with the other outlets along side (the same dedicated lines with different outlets and covers). they all asked 'how could those make that much difference?'........and then boiught some for themselves.

yesterday i had my friend install 6 more for me for the multi-channel i am installing.

i'm not interested in discussing whether what i am hearing is possible. i just don't care about viewpoints from non listeners......and i wish they did not feel the need to force their 'dogma' on me (which i realize is exactly the idea behind your starting this thread).

if someone listens then i would enjoy hearing their opinion. i know that is not too likely around here.

Anybody who buys crap like that wants to be fooled or tricked,how can an outlet cover change the sound from a system

i do agree with the objectivists on the idea that some explainations are outlandish sounding. or maybe the manufacturer has created a legitimate product thru trial, error, and experience......without the technical background to understand and properly interpret the science. that manufacturer might explain how it seems to work......and that explaination may be wrong......although the product might be very good.

as a result i siimply don't pay much attention to the why. if it makes sense and is based on sound scrience but it sounds like sh*t.......i am not interested. if the manufacturer is an idiot but it sounds great i'm all over it.

the thing is the performance. not the explaination.

ye gotta listen.....then talk. you know.....2 ears, 1 mouth.

regarding the outlet covers and duplex outlets......i could take a stab at why it works. but as a non-techie the buzzards will then decend to pick apart my feeble reasonings.

what the heck.....

what this product does is;

1. the duplex outlets 'grip' the plug at least 5 times as tightly as a normal quality duplex outlet. i have to really shove the plug hard to get it to click into the outlet.

2. the metal parts are beryllium coated.

3. the outlet covers are two part. there is an aluminum base that screws very firmly to the wall box. the base plate is about 1/2" thick and non resonate. the duplex outlet is then attached to this plate (they fit together perfectly) so effectively the mass of the duplex outlet is tripled.......which makes the whole assembly very non resonate. there is then a carbon fibre cover over the aluminum base plate which fits perfectly into a recess in the plate. the whole thing is one piece.

it appears it is all a matter of mechanical grounding and better connectivity.

i expected a slight improvement.......but it was huge.

i don't care whether my un-scientific explaination is valid.......but it is just how it appears to work to me.

And I am sure you did a great double blind on your test subjects.

Oh well there is one born every second now days it seems.

I like the way you make 3 points that have no validity on the impact of sound, but a fool and his money are soon parted.

......i could take a stab at why it works. but as a non-techie the buzzards will then decend to pick apart my feeble reasonings.

what the heck.....

what this product does is;

1. the duplex outlets 'grip' the plug at least 5 times as tightly as a normal quality duplex outlet. i have to really shove the plug hard to get it to click into the outlet.

2. the metal parts are beryllium coated.

3. the outlet covers are two part. there is an aluminum base that screws very firmly to the wall box. the base plate is about 1/2" thick and non resonate. the duplex outlet is then attached to this plate (they fit together perfectly) so effectively the mass of the duplex outlet is tripled.......which makes the whole assembly very non resonate. there is then a carbon fibre cover over the aluminum base plate which fits perfectly into a recess in the plate. the whole thing is one piece.

it appears it is all a matter of mechanical grounding and better connectivity.


Insertion force is certainly a factor in the contact resistance. Your thinking that it is a matter of better electrical grounding is a good guess. That is certainly a plausible entryway for affecting the sound.

Beryllium coated? Do you perhaps mean beryllium/copper? That is an alloy typically used to help contacts remain springy.

The outlet covers, I don't buy the resonance goop. Vibration of the wall plates is many orders of magnitude below anything needed to alter the electricity in any way.

Cheers, John

Insertion force is certainly a factor in the contact resistance. Your thinking that it is a matter of better electrical grounding is a good guess. That is certainly a plausible entryway for affecting the sound.

Beryllium coated? Do you perhaps mean beryllium/copper? That is an alloy typically used to help contacts remain springy.

The outlet covers, I don't buy the resonance goop. Vibration of the wall plates is many orders of magnitude below anything needed to alter the electricity in any way.

Cheers, John

from the box;

*polished beryllium copper.
*pladium on plating contact.
*heavy-duty triple wipe contacts.
*body made of PBT with glass filler.
*24k gold-plated brass band.

"resonance goop"? you could be correct......although my experience suggests that resonance reduction typically has positive effects. i would need to A/B without the plate covers to comment more. as i said i don't know the degree of improvement from the plate covers.

from the box;

*polished beryllium copper.
*pladium on plating contact.
*heavy-duty triple wipe contacts.
*body made of PBT with glass filler.
*24k gold-plated brass band.

"resonance goop"? you could be correct......although my experience suggests that resonance reduction typically has positive effects. i would need to A/B without the plate covers to comment more. as i said i don't know the degree of improvement from the plate covers.
Is that a typo or is that the way they actually spelled "palladium"??

from the box;

*polished beryllium copper.
*pladium on plating contact.
*heavy-duty triple wipe contacts.
*body made of PBT with glass filler.
*24k gold-plated brass band.

"resonance goop"? you could be correct......although my experience suggests that resonance reduction typically has positive effects. i would need to A/B without the plate covers to comment more. as i said i don't know the degree of improvement from the plate covers.

Thanks.

Not sure what pladium is, perhaps they meant palladium. I assume that is supposed to lower the contact resistance or help the wear characteristics.

Resonance reduction certainly is a valid technique, but only where resonance is actually a problem. The outlet plate explanation kinda reeks. If it indeed resonates, the vibration amplitude would be what, microinches at best? That kind of movement of a wall plate cannot affect the electricity going through a line cord.

A/B'ng the plate covers is kinda unrealistic. First confounding influence is the need to pull and re-insert the plugs. If you have a ground loop based problem (ground loop issues are not just hum problems), anything you do to A/B a wall plate will alter that physical loop as well as the contact resistances.

Then of course, the confounder of knowing which plate is being tried, and the other confounder of the test apparatus...a human..

If you are happy with your purchases, who am I to argue??

Cheers, John

My animus is not directed at those who believe the fraud, panhead; rather those that peddle it. I'm sorry, I just don't think it's OK to just let them keep ripping people off. Having said that your reasoning is why I am trying to be more careful with my arguments moving forward, to focus less on listening tests and more on deceptive marketing and peddling of pseudoscience. Because the former targets the buyers, the listeners, the hobbyists, who are reasonably innocent here; and the latter targets the manufacturers who are the real problem.

Michael,
I applaud your taking the high road ,since it seems that it goes nowhere otherwise, but it's like blaming the growers in Nicaragua rather than the teenager buying the bag of weed. Both have responsibilty IMO.

Art

Thanks.

Not sure what pladium is, perhaps they meant palladium.
Yup.

If you are happy with your purchases, who am I to argue??

Cheers, John

exactly.

that is the best comment in this thread so far and should be in the title of every cable thread.

Is that a typo or is that the way they actually spelled "palladium"??

i am a terrible typist that also needs to use my glasses at appropriate moments...sorry.

in any case; the box actually reads 'Paradium'.....which i then butchered in my own way. sorry.

Oh... Paradium. THat is a whole different story all together.

:)

Oh... Paradium. THat is a whole different story all together.

:D
:D :D :D :D OMG... I almost split a gut.

Careful gents---paradium seems to be an alternative spelling for palladium (Pd). Interestingly this spelling tends to be used by the Japanese :) (And no, that's not a joke---but it's funny!) EDIT: But I see both "Palladium" and "Paradium" in the same article, seemingly referring to two different forms of the element, so there might be more going on here. EDIT^2: Well, the more I look at it the more it seems to be just a transcription from the Japanese. It seems to be used interchangeably.

Careful gents---paradium seems to be an alternative spelling for palladium (Pd). Interestingly this spelling tends to be used by the Japanese :) (And no, that's not a joke---but it's funny!)
Well... it's STILL pretty funny. And, I don't think it takes away from Dizzman's rather pointed point. (Going Japanese, I think I'm going Japanese, I really think so...")

Actually the Japanese high-end audio tweaker community is pretty vibrant, so I'm not surprised to see it trickle back here.

I thought these errors in spelling would've been corrected since the recent Japanese erections.

Vibration of the wall plates is many orders of magnitude below anything needed to alter the electricity in any way.What about the noise of the actual wall plate vibrating? My subwoofer has been known to rattle some of the plates loose (but I solved it with a dab of non-permanent LocTite on the screws).

I want to point out that i googled Paradium and found nothing of note, so my joke was not meant to infer an asian accent with the smaily i chose. I merely used the laughing one.

I am now changing it to smiley.

:)

regarding the outlet covers and duplex outlets......i could take a stab at why it works. but as a non-techie the buzzards will then decend to pick apart my feeble reasonings.

what the heck.....

what this product does is;

1. the duplex outlets 'grip' the plug at least 5 times as tightly as a normal quality duplex outlet. i have to really shove the plug hard to get it to click into the outlet.

2. the metal parts are beryllium coated.

3. the outlet covers are two part. there is an aluminum base that screws very firmly to the wall box. the base plate is about 1/2" thick and non resonate. the duplex outlet is then attached to this plate (they fit together perfectly) so effectively the mass of the duplex outlet is tripled.......which makes the whole assembly very non resonate. there is then a carbon fibre cover over the aluminum base plate which fits perfectly into a recess in the plate. the whole thing is one piece.

So, it all comes down to a reduction in source impedance in the power chain. Granted, having a solid electro-mechanical connection is a good thing in ANY electrical circuit, but resistance only goes to zero, and there is always the impedance of the cable, in-wall wiring, breaker, breaker stabs, panel bus, utility meter, etc.

1) I'd be very interested to see some Ductor (low-resistance Ohmmeter) measurements of the plug/socket interface; a comparison of 'normal' vs. 'tweak' outlets might be enlightening.

2) I'd also be interested in seeing values for the source impedance of the power line, and the load impedance (at 60 Hz) for the power supply of the device(s) in question.

3) Even more interesting would be some current and voltage traces for the power input to the device(s), as well as voltage/current traces of the resulting DC output from the power supplie(s). These would have to be sampled at at least 1 kHz or so to be able to see anything of value.

Reducing source impedance can potentially have a positive impact on the slew rate of a linear amp with a linear power supply. However, the impact is very dependent on the design and various impedance levels in the chain. Also, the use of sufficient (or excessive) filter capacitance on the DC output of the supply can mask most (if not all) of the ill effects of 'soft' AC line power.

That said, the source impedance is extremely unlikely to have any impact on the performance of a switching power supply, beyond being functional or non-functional.

Has any actual data been collected to investigate these claims?

THe fun part of all of this is in taking a "tweak" and trying to get to the bottom of whether it actually does anything, and if so... what.

Hi

I am talking about myself here.. While I believe that cables can make a subtle difference in some systems, I am hard pressed to believe that an outlet cover would make a "huge" or ANY difference whatsoever....

A really bad outlet can have a suboptimal connection, moving the plug in the outlet can actually producea "scratching" sound through the speakers.. easily verified... Using good outlet make a lot of sense. Good outlets such as the "Hospital Grade" from Hubbell, my favorite or Leviton give you a good contact and there is no arcing under loads which can happen with substandard oulet and plugs, once one passes this threshold there is no more contribution from the outlet, even less its cover, I am bothered by the $30.00 price tag but one could say that anyone who can shell $30 for an outlet COVER does NOT need your pity or your "help" ... especially if he or she is satisfied with the purchase and that is the whole point from panhead.. :Leave the person alone!!! If he/she needs advice from similar folks let it be... I admit that the Bovine Manure by some manufacturers deserve on a strict moralistic point of view to be pointed out... on this I have to let it out : MachinaDynamica stands alone at the top of this (expensive) pile of manure...

Peter and May Belt are pretty whacky people and it's hard to say whether they, or MachinaDynamica, would prevail in a 7 game series. The outlet...well that's nothing more than a nice plated outlet befitting of a Trump residence.

interesting how no one even considers to maybe.....possibly.......at some point.....listen to see what you might hear. all that interests you is why and why not.

i guess there is just a disconnect from my perspective to what is found here. i might be in the wrong place. which i respect.

why do i even bother to post here?

i want to share what i hear.........

you want to explain why i don't 'really' hear it.

one of us does not fit into this program.

Hi

I just read from this web site..
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2005/Sep05/Snark.htm

because this is beyond laughable... I have been in this hobby for more than 40 years... it started before I was a teenager... way before.. I have made sure of staying away from extremes in Audio, always concentrating on the music and enjoying it to this day.. This is as extreme as it is humanly possible...

Fit the First. Choose two photographs of yourself, a current one and another taken when you were much younger, place them in separate sealed plain polythene bags and store them inside the freezer compartment of your domestic fridge. Listen to your audio system playing (the source of the music doesn’t matter) and decide if the sound has improved. If unsure whether this is the case, remove the photographs and their containers from the fridge and you will hear the sound deteriorate markedly. And so will anyone else present at the time.
There is much more in this article...

The bold emphasis is mine....
Chu Gai I agree with you for once.. MachinaDynamica, Shakti stones and harmoix combats can't hold a candle and the Tice Clock has been trounced :eek: The new king of Audio BS has to be this... My world has been shattered... :(

THe fun part of all of this is in taking a "tweak" and trying to get to the bottom of whether it actually does anything, and if so... what.

actually; the fun part is having the music sound better.

but maybe that's just me.

when i find something that improves my system performance every one of my 3000+ digital discs and 6000+ Lp's sound better. all my favorite music sounds new.

now that is fun.

but maybe not for most participants here.

Im still waiting for a good answer why there have never been even ONE dbt that have proven all this? This stuff have been up for over 20 years and during that time none have proven it yet. None!!

I like this quote:
"The displacement of the idea that facts and evidence matter by the idea that everything boils down to subjective interests and perspectives is -- second only to American political campaigns -- the most prominent and pernicious manifestation of anti-intellectualism in our time."
-- Larry Laudan, Science and Relativism, 1990

if someone listens then i would enjoy hearing their opinion. i know that is not too likely around here.

Your right,i make it a point not to comment on gear or tweaks i have not tried first hand or atleast heard in a system,im not a big tweeker but my friend & neighbor is with his system,i have heard his system with the Brilliant Pebbles in the room & with the Clever Clock but i have not heard his system with the "Covers" in the room.

I should have kept my comments to gear i have heard or owned,i firmly believe that comments based on first hand experience are the most helpfull,no matter what is being discussed.

actually; the fun part is having the music sound better.

but maybe that's just me.

when i find something that improves my system performance every one of my 3000+ digital discs and 6000+ Lp's sound better. all my favorite music sounds new.

now that is fun.

but maybe not for most participants here.

I totally agree with every word,im not a user of hi performance cables but i do try to keep an open mind on things that im not experienced in,i also try not to focus on a spec sheet,to me what makes something worthy or not all depends on how it sounds in my system in my room,i could care less how good/poorly it sounds at a dealer's room its what happens in my room that counts.

Another thing about "having fun" with our hobby,part of the fun is the excitement of trying new things & hearing if there is a difference or improvement in any area of the system.

This is why i believe that its not necessary to have a debate in every last cable thread,having fun should be first & foremost.

Michael,
I applaud your taking the high road ,since it seems that it goes nowhere otherwise, but it's like blaming the growers in Nicaragua rather than the teenager buying the bag of weed. Both have responsibilty IMO.

Art

Well I'm sure glad you left us Canadians out of the growing part. We don't grow any of that.....







wait a minute, what were we talking about?

I'm so high right now... :eek: :p

Canadians use their own. no need to import from central america

(hey, this thread has gone in lots of other directions)

will you buy some fake valhalla cables made in china?

if they perform the same as the original ones then why not?

i dont think you can google an answer
I was going to rewire my apartment with Nordost Valhalla in a couple of weeks, but then I saw your post, where can I buy the fake Valhalla cables?

hey valhallapc

it was just a hypothetical question to test the logics for discussion purpose.

i have no knowledge where to get some. most probably they are available in some shops in china. i was told there were more pro ac and b&w fake speakers than import from the uk and fake audioquest cables.

mike, I'm sure there are scenarios that could be designed to determine the reason why you're hearing what you do. I doubt though that really finding out is important to you as it seems you're willing to accept that what you hear is indeed due to some special property of the outlets and not to things like concious and unconcious biases, poor auditory memory, or selective auditory focussing. At some level, I'd hope you find this phenomenon puzzling. After all, taking an outlet and polishing and plating the inside contacts is neither difficult nor expensive although I'd suspect it doesn't meet any UL certifications. Perhaps there are other psychological reasons why you perceive an audible difference. For example, maybe you have some form of OBCD that manifests itself in a neuroses with your audio system. Kind of like always washing dishes or polishing silverware, you're always concerned about the 'quality' of your AC or worried about some other aspects of your system. Or maybe you're insecure at some level about the components you've chosen and are looking for some combination of 'ingredients' that are unique and will make others stand up quietly in awe. Maybe you feel out of control in your life and rail against a fast moving technological world and want to exert some kind of personal control over a tiny space that's not subject to this.

There are ways to find out though if what you're hearing is real or not and then act accordingly. But the ball is in your court.

Well I'm sure glad you left us Canadians out of the growing part. We don't grow any of that.....







wait a minute, what were we talking about?

I'm so high right now... :eek: :p

Just an analogy, perhaps not the best one. :o Now, back to our regularly scheduled bong. :D

Art

mike, I'm sure there are scenarios that could be designed to determine the reason why you're hearing what you do. I doubt though that really finding out is important to you as it seems you're willing to accept that what you hear is indeed due to some special property of the outlets and not to things like concious and unconcious biases, poor auditory memory, or selective auditory focussing. At some level, I'd hope you find this phenomenon puzzling. After all, taking an outlet and polishing and plating the inside contacts is neither difficult nor expensive although I'd suspect it doesn't meet any UL certifications. Perhaps there are other psychological reasons why you perceive an audible difference. For example, maybe you have some form of OBCD that manifests itself in a neuroses with your audio system. Kind of like always washing dishes or polishing silverware, you're always concerned about the 'quality' of your AC or worried about some other aspects of your system. Or maybe you're insecure at some level about the components you've chosen and are looking for some combination of 'ingredients' that are unique and will make others stand up quietly in awe. Maybe you feel out of control in your life and rail against a fast moving technological world and want to exert some kind of personal control over a tiny space that's not subject to this.

There are ways to find out though if what you're hearing is real or not and then act accordingly. But the ball is in your court.

amazing.

do you ever actually listen to music?

goodby.

never thought of it?

yes.

ta ta.

amazing.

do you ever actually listen to music?

goodby.


Amazing your the one making the claim but cant back it up. Do you live in the real world?

who's goodby?

Gumby's cousin.

Prediction:

One -two days before this one is closed by the Mods

Prediction:

One -two days before this one is closed by the Mods
But it's been fun!

I was going to rewire my apartment with Nordost Valhalla in a couple of weeks, but then I saw your post, where can I buy the fake Valhalla cables?

Don't do that!
The chinese valhalla cables don't come with the sonic placebo the originals have.

Chinese placebos *suck*. It's like they're made out of sugar or something. Totally ineffective.......

too much msg

Check this (http://www.goldensound.com/productlist/next-generation-audio-accessories
) out, fellas.

There are lots of fun products on that page but I want to draw your attention to the "Mini Magic Ring":
http://www.goldensound.com/img/products/mini_magicring.jpg
Look familiar, anyone? Yes, that's right! You too can have the privilege of paying $130 for a pair of snap-on ferrite beads! That's only about, oh, $126 more than you can buy them for anywhere else. Then again, maybe they're made out of paradium.

Three of these, not the cans, under an amp are said to firm up one's bottom end and lend gravitas to any presentation.

http://www.the-px.com/images/DJ0901-01.jpg

Prediction:

One -two days before this one is closed by the Mods


Nooo! This is too much fun.. Please Mr Rubin (not the respectful tone) do let this one go on.. sooooo entertaining...

Three of these, not the cans, under an amp are said to firm up one's bottom end and lend gravitas to any presentation.

http://www.the-px.com/images/DJ0901-01.jpg


i don't think anyone here can deny that having something "sitting" on those cones will not "firm up" the bottom end. if it does not, then something is wrong, imo. :D


btw, i can't believe this thread has gone on for so long. seriously, it is a waste of bandwith.

Yeah, I don't need listening tests to believe that one. Reminds me of that night in Vegas...

There are lots of fun products on that page but I want to draw your attention to the "Mini Magic Ring":
.

I bought a ring once, but it wasn't from an audio company website. I had to get the maxi size though, the mini wouldn't fit and restricted flow to the woofer. :D

....
btw, i can't believe this thread has gone on for so long. seriously, it is a waste of bandwith.

Why do you people need to spoil the fun??!! :( ...Let it live..

that is all folks