I dont get all the fighting on this site about cables,ive never seen anything like it,every thread on this site that dares ask about any cable is instantly hijacked & turned into a mess,most of the time by the same people with the same google links.

Why do you guys hijack cable threads ? Do you really think your helping anybody by hijacking all the cable threads on every site?

Do any of you guys really think anybody on the internet has not read all the google links,heard about all the dbt & dbx results,read the 10,000 other threads about cable voodo,heard the same catch phrases over & over like voodo,snake oil,irrelevant,golden eared audiophile ect ect ect.

I could care less about cables,i dont believe in them but i am utterly confused as to why soooo many people feel compeled to hijack every cable thread in sight,give it a rest guys,its to the point your like Hari Krishners following passengers around at the airports.

will you buy some fake valhalla cables made in china?

if they perform the same as the original ones then why not?

i dont think you can google an answer

CPU8088

I do not think you got his point which to me should be well taken ... I like his position .. He does not care about cable but does not feel compelled to hijack thread with his position, drowning the recommendations with a see of wikipedia and Google links about how unscientific and unsubstantiated the OP asking for recommendation thread is. Let us take the last example of the fellow who asked about cables to go with his MAXX2... That is a clear, concise and self-explanatory request.... What Cable would you recommend ME to use with my MAXX2? Simple...
It can be a simple answer like ANY 12 Gau cable... but should it be the sneers, attacks and ridicules we see on a consistent basis on ALL cable threads?

Hi

Another tendency I have on this forum is the non-answers. e.g

Original Poster Question: What PJ do you think I should use with my EXTREMA Screen....?

Non_Answer: You will get too many answers form this people . Go audition and make your own mind...

I am sure the OP usually KNOWS that. He/she is asking for recommendations by a group of enthusiasts some of them experts. He/she is deferring to your judgments to allow him/her to engage in his/her quest.. Where I live I can not audition PJs.. I have to rely on what I read from people I have come to trust. I went toward the Ruby because of tryg passion about it, it could be said that his thread on various screens is a required reading for people who want to understand the contribution of screens to the HT experience...
These days I would not mind getting an RS-1 sight unseen.once I find a taker for my Ruby.. . when Art, Peter or Alan find a PJ very good to me it is a sign of "run , grab one and enjoy"....
Sorry about the OT.. maybe I am in a rant mood...

It starts with AVS.... :cool:
there is no CABLE chapter in the AUDIO AREA sector...
there is only a CABLE, DIGITAL CABLE chapter in the VIDEO COMPONENTS sector.

By the way,

why isn't it interesting to talk/learn about fiber optic interconnects from
Harmonic Technology, "CyberLight",

or about active shielding from Synergistic Research's "Tesla" series... a.s.o.

Hey, and if through cables you think you can hear an improvement in your system and enjoy that,
doesn't that come close to so many people who think they are happily married en enjoy that, true or not :rolleyes:

panhead

I agree 100% with your post.

The problem in my opinion stems from the exuberant self-importance of so many, not just in audio circles but in all walks of life (e.ga., Environmentalists owning private jets, Gun-Control Celebrities encircled by their 9mm toting body-guards.)

In all places there are people who think their opinions/beliefs/knowledge/understanding is somehow more important, more "correct" than others.

I can tell you from personal experience (I've spent most of my life in biotech) that knowledge and understanding evolve, even in the face of well designed randomized, placebo controlled double-blinded trials. To think otherwise is not scientific but egocentric blindness. Vioxx, estrogen replacement therapy, Evista, Natrecor, ad nauseum...

Nobody in their right mind denies facts (e.g., 2+2=4), however wether an audio cable sounds better is hardly confined to the realm of science/fact. If somebody "really" wanted to figure this out they would simply blindfold a person, hook them up to a brain magnetometer or PET scan and watch their neuronal activity when listening to two different cables under identical conditions. If the scans of their auditory centers are different -- they are -- in fact -- hearing a difference. All the rest of this is pseudo-scientific verbal masturbation.

Dead horses anyone?

frantz

thanks.

just like to look at it from another angle so that newcomers to this hobby aware this unsolved mystery.

as has been pointed out to me many times here.....this is AVS.....Audio Video SCIENCE......SCIENCE.

the emphasis is on the SCIENCE.......which will always flavor the viewpoint here. i like this forum and AVS in general because of the sense of community here.....i like the people. but if you are looking for a viewpoint of sonic performance and listening as opposed to the need for scientific justification then go to www.audioasylum.com or www.audiogon.com ........and for cable discussions and particularly for less contentious discussions of cable PERFORMANCE (as opposed to cable debunking) go to the cable forum on audioasylum. they do not allow any discussion of DBT or similar issues there. if you are curious you can also read why they don't allow DBT discussions (or just read cable threads here for the same answer).

cable discussions here are just an excuse for getting together and talking about stuff. we should just open one once a month just cuz......they are our own form of 'chat room'.

What does it mean when the PET scans are different when listening to the same cable?

Mike:

First of all... this forum was named after a business (AVS) which existed long before.

Science - "Systematized knowledge derived from observation, study, and experimentation carried on in order to determine the nature or principles of what is being studied."

To state that an audio cable's value needs to proven "scientifically" is a nonsensical statement. Clearly changing cables does change some people's perception (i.e., observation) of the performance of their system.

Outside of strictly controlled laboratory environments, there are no phenomenon which are 100% predictable 100% of the time. Zip/Zero. As a neuroscientist I can assure you that there are NEVER, even in a strictly controlled laboratory environment, any sensory integration repsonses (e.g., hearing) that are predictable -- even within study subjects.

The slightest elevation/declination of one of hundreds of (known) neurotransmitters will skew the cochlear nerves integration into the cerebral cortex. These neurotransmitters are in constant flux and with rare exception (some very skilled Yogis) cannot be self-modulated. This is why I laugh when electrical engineers and physicists -- bright as they may be -- making such sweeping generalizations about something we (neuroscientists/biophysicists) know so little about -- namely the human brain and sensory perception. The very fact that a test subject knows they are involved in a test changes their neurotransmitter profiles and therefore skews the results. Ironically enough -- this very phenomenon was first observed in the world of physics: Heisenberg's uncertainty principle.

A not-so-perfect example of this involves another similarly integrated sense -- vision. In controlled laboratory environments, interhuman and intrahuman central nervous system reactions to colors flashed before them vary wildly. Some artistic savants have smells and tastes they palpably sense when confronted with various colors. We know that the monitors used to flash the color are not emitting any chemicals to stimulate their olfactory centers. So how can this be?

Similarly, many math savants claim to be able to hear, taste, smell, feel an equation.

Formal science has no explanation for this phenomenon -- so are these people crazy? Are they deluding themselves?

None of this even scratches the surface on the the questions regarding the sensitivity of our current test equipment and the ever-evolving understanding of quantum physics.Science is constantly changing, growing, evolving. The instinct to protect the new-uninititiated-gullable consumer from snake-oil is honorable but ultimately doomed. To say that we can know ANYTHING regarding another human's ability to perceive something is arrogant and ignorant.

Chu

It simply means that the organ of perception (the brain) is reacting differently -- therefore the perception is different.

I want to also agree with Mike that I have enjoyed my years as an active memebr of AVS. The quality of the information and, in general, the tone of the discussions is top-notch relative to most of my other on-line haunts. I appreciate you all!

To say that we can know ANYTHING regarding another human's ability to perceive something is arrogant and ignorant.
People involved in marketing can readily point to studies that rather refute the ANYTHING comment.

Chu

Perhaps that was a bit of an overstatment on a superficial level -- e.g., most humans feel sad when they see cruelty -- but at the physiological level I stand by this apparent hyperbole.

Wow

as Michael Grant always says..."can you feel the love?"

I dont get all the fighting on this site about cables,ive never seen anything like it,every thread on this site that dares ask about any cable is instantly hijacked & turned into a mess,most of the time by the same people with the same google links.

Why do you guys hijack cable threads ? Do you really think your helping anybody by hijacking all the cable threads on every site?

Do any of you guys really think anybody on the internet has not read all the google links,heard about all the dbt & dbx results,read the 10,000 other threads about cable voodo,heard the same catch phrases over & over like voodo,snake oil,irrelevant,golden eared audiophile ect ect ect.

I could care less about cables,i dont believe in them but i am utterly confused as to why soooo many people feel compeled to hijack every cable thread in sight,give it a rest guys,its to the point your like Hari Krishners following passengers around at the airports.

I pass by a local church on the way to work. Presently, they have a sign that says "there are some questions you can't answer with a Google search". I think the whole thing applies here.

Art

Funny Art.

At the practical level that translates to sales and market share that has nothing to do with whether something actually tastes different, sounds different, etc. I stand next to Mr. Franklin.

At the practical level that translates to sales and market share that has nothing to do with whether something actually tastes different, sounds different, etc. I stand next to Mr. Franklin.

No, at the practical level it means that everybody has differing perceptions -- generally predictable (ie.., tastes good/bad) but specifically immeasurable.

I'm not trying to be an ass, but honestly to think otherwise is simplistic and sensorycentric, sorry.

I don't know if anyone noticed but there is disagreement about many things on this forum, not just cables. Even Bose has their defenders. Pretty much all you have to say is my (you name it) is great and I haven't heard/seen anything better and there will be those that agree and disagree, sometimes vehemently.

I don't know if anyone noticed but there is disagreement about many things on this forum, not just cables. Even Bose has their defenders. Pretty much all you have to say is my (you name it) is great and I haven't heard/seen anything better and there will be those that agree and disagree, sometimes vehemently.


And that is my point exactly.

Every-body's perceptions are unique, specifically unpredictable, crudely measurable, widely variable and mostly misunderstood by both society and science.

So we come to forums like this to read others opinions and share our own. To say another's opinion -- as it regards to matters of taste, smell, sight, sound and touch -- is wrong/bologna/perfect is fool-fodder and verbal masturbation. It makes the person saying it feel better but in the end accomplishes nothing for anybody else except for those who are already 'FER SHER' that their preferences are in alignment with the one doing the tongue-wagging (or finger tapping in our case.)

No, at the practical level it means that everybody has differing perceptions -- generally predictable (ie.., tastes good/bad) but specifically immeasurable.

I'm not trying to be an ass, but honestly to think otherwise is simplistic and sensorycentric, sorry.
And what I'm getting at, is that perceptions regarding taste or hearing can be influenced when nothing regarding the presentation has changed (you're tasting the same thing...listening to the same thing). Change the color slightly of the 7-UP can and people will think there's more lime or lemon. Put the cable in a different sheathing and perceptions change. Couple that with leading comments and it's no wonder people go on a life long quest for the cable that's just right.

What I find fascinating is that overpriced, over-hyped cables are routinely dismissed (though not without a flamewar here and there), yet overpriced, over-hyped amplification devices are often not...

And what I'm getting at, is that perceptions regarding taste or hearing can be influenced when nothing regarding the presentation has changed (you're tasting the same thing...listening to the same thing). Change the color slightly of the 7-UP can and people will think there's more lime or lemon. Put the cable in a different sheathing and perceptions change. Couple that with leading comments and it's no wonder people go on a life long quest for the cable that's just right.

Bingo!

So to say that there is no way Cable A sounds different than Cable B is in fact FALSE!

They do sound different, but MAYBE not for the reasons you'd like. But that is not the point is it? The point of this hobby for many is to appraoch the Absolute Sound. If cable A gets a particular hobbyist closer to that goal -- for whatever reason -- then whaddyacare?

We are complex organisms - I believe spiritual and material. While comforting for some -- the idea that we can reduce a particular human experience (hearing) to an equation (Ohm's Law) is laughable and sad. Oh well, that is why there is both Harvard AND MIT...

Hi

I can feel the love... The body of knowledge here is substantial. I have learned more about video in this very part of the AVS Forum, than all my years of visiting dealers, atending shows and even semnars. I assembled my best video system from recommendation on this >20K forum...

I do however object not to the disagreements, they are part of any discussions, but to hijacking and often pompous attitudes of some people that do not "believe" in cables. They simply drown any discussions with their views... It is consistent, deterministic. Do start a thread on cable, 5 posts later a plethora of posts that do not advance the discussion by one iota but states how naive people are and how it has not be proven by a given protocol that cables make any difference.... as if they feel it is a duty to "prove" their views however extraneous it could be to the discussions at hand.

I must however say that this attitude provokes some , IMHO, excellent posts on the nature of knowledge. ElMitz posts above are examples .. so I guess the naysayers, however rude they may be sometimes have a purpose.

I too love it here...

So long as you're doing sighted listening or tasting, sure. If you want to trust your ears, close your eyes. To make people aware of what can influence perception is hardly ignoble. As to the point, consider that many of the people who seem to trust the perceptions of others and the claims of the cable mongers are loathe to trust anything a politician says. What you say is a hobby is a business to others and the more you know about the business, any business, maybe you'll be a more educated consumer.

as has been pointed out to me many times here.....this is AVS.....Audio Video SCIENCE......SCIENCE.

the emphasis is on the SCIENCE.......which will always flavor the viewpoint here. i like this forum and AVS in general because of the sense of community here.....i like the people. but if you are looking for a viewpoint of sonic performance and listening as opposed to the need for scientific justification then go to www.audioasylum.com or www.audiogon.com ........and for cable discussions and particularly for less contentious discussions of cable PERFORMANCE (as opposed to cable debunking) go to the cable forum on audioasylum. they do not allow any discussion of DBT or similar issues there. if you are curious you can also read why they don't allow DBT discussions (or just read cable threads here for the same answer).

Im aware of Audiogons forums ( a joke) & im also aware of Audio asylum's forums & all the others like Audio Karma & Audioholics,my whole question revolves around one word,WHY?

Take the Maxx 2 cable recomendation thread for example,that guy got no information that he was after & just stepped back out of his own thread & let everybody have at it,common sense would tell anybody that a guy who own's these speakers is not a newbie,what is it that drives the same people over & over to take over threads like the Maxx 2 thread,after the thread was hijacked it quit being usefull to the OP & turned into yet another platform for the same old cable arguements to begin again.

This debate is unsolveable,the EE's in the forums all believe it's voodo :mad: ,then you get the super brainy guys like Morbius or Jneutron who are all over the place with equasition's that are light years over the EE's understanding of cable's as a science :confused: :confused: ,then we have the believers who ask questions like which cable will give me the best bass response :rolleyes: .
Now we have the google link guys,dbt this & irrelevant that,Floyd Toole this & nobody has ever passed the $25,000 dbt challenge that :p .

For all the cable" naysayers",have you EVER changed one high end cable user's belief's on the subject?

For the cable "believers",have you EVER proved your point to any of the naysayers?

Arguing about the relevance of cables within a sound system has turned into a hobby in itself that has nothing to do with the questions being asked in the hijacked threads,people want recomendations from other guys who believe in cables,the same people dont want their thread hijacked & turned into another cable debate/fight.

For the record im a total cable "naysayer",i have a very modest & cost efective HT system but i also have a very expensive high end rig,ive tried a bunch of expensive cables & either heard no difference or the difference was so small it became clear i didnt need to travel down that road any more,ive been told on Audiogon before the Mod's killed that forum that my gear isnt "resolving" enough to hear differences in cables,at a cost of about $60K it should be.

My whole point to everybody who constantly argues over cables is why not start your own area to argue daily & stop hijacking threads,it is hijacking,if starting your own area is not an option then why not simply give it a rest,everybody on both sides of the fence on this issue is to blame for the hijackings & it amounts to no more than trolling for an arguement that cant be won.

So long as you're doing sighted listening or tasting, sure. If you want to trust your ears, close your eyes. To make people aware of what can influence perception is hardly ignoble. As to the point, consider that many of the people who seem to trust the perceptions of others and the claims of the cable mongers are loathe to trust anything a politician says. What you say is a hobby is a business to others and the more you know about the business, any business, maybe you'll be a more educated consumer.


One of the beautiful things about this hobby is that all one needs to become an educated consumer is their eyes/ears (videophile/audiophile). Wether or not YOU hear a difference is irreleavent to me if I DO hear a difference -- regardless of the origin of the difference.

And lets face it, this forum in particular caters to those who suffer from Audiophilia Nervosum -- a state of dis-ease characterized by the unnerving feeling that something out there would make our systems sound "better".

I appreciate your well worded responses.

Bingo!

So to say that there is no way Cable A sounds different than Cable B is in fact FALSE!

They do sound different, but MAYBE not for the reasons you'd like. But that is not the point is it? The point of this hobby for many is to appraoch the Absolute Sound. If cable A gets a particular hobbyist closer to that goal -- for whatever reason -- then whaddyacare?

We are complex organisms - I believe spiritual and material. While comforting for some -- the idea that we can reduce a particular human experience (hearing) to an equation (Ohm's Law) is laughable and sad. Oh well, that is why there is both Harvard AND MIT...But it generally is not "I like this and I wanted to share what I like"; usually, the person's position is one of advocacy for a cable, amp, speaker, what have you.

But it generally is not "I like this and I wanted to share what I like"; usually, the person's position is one of advocacy for a cable, amp, speaker, what have you.


Agreed. There are way too many pi$$ing matches.

One of the beautiful things about this hobby is that all one needs to become an educated consumer is their eyes/ears (videophile/audiophile). Wether or not YOU hear a difference is irreleavent to me if I DO hear a difference -- regardless of the origin of the difference.
Your argument misrepresents the objectivist's stance that basis its argument on science. The very notion that said objectivists argue based on concepts of paradigms and placebos demonstrates they clearly understand what you seem to deny them; i.e. that the experiential world is affected by all forms of information the individual is processing when listening. Their argument is not that the individual listening is not experiencing cables differently, but rather the source of their differing experieces is unrelated to the pseudo scientific reasons provided by the cable manufacturers.

That is, the reasons the manufacturers provide can affect an individual's experience, but not because the electromagnetic properties of the cables have been sufficiently affected that they are now perceptible to human hearing, but rather they are perceptible because the brain is now acting like a filter affected by the pseudo science that is now guiding the beliefs of how sound should have changed. The purpose of science and DBT in this context is twofold: (a) track down the source of difference; (b) for those studying psychoacoustics, to determine the factors that affect the hearing experience, and how this takes place.

Another example of this is the phenomenon of people experiencing sound as being different when they place a photo of their sound system in the freezer (yes, they are believers of this practice). Does the freezer somehow affect the audio system by freezing the captured soul of the sound system? Unlikely. However, they individual in question has enaged in a ritual that has placed him/her in a particular state of mind that will affect their perception, thus why he/she perceives the sound as being different.

What I find fascinating is that overpriced, over-hyped cables are routinely dismissed (though not without a flamewar here and there), yet overpriced, over-hyped amplification devices are often not...

No no no,amplifiers are not forgotten they are constantly ripped to shreads just mostly on another site, which i see no need to name,i think if the truth be told there really isnt that many people on these forums who argue over amplifiers,cables,room treatments ect,the usernames change depending on the site but the posting's are the same.

One member who has thousands of posts under his belt on another site (and this site) always recomends room treatments,90% of the time no matter the question his answer is room treatments,because room treatments are what worked for him.

Another member with several thousand posts will join a thread asking weather to buy a Krell or a Levinson,he has no hands on experience with either but will fly off into the same ole "all amps sound the same" speech,because he has never heard a difference & DR Toole's research shows there is no difference.

What i dont understand is what drives these same small groups of people to argue the same old crap over & over again,site after site,just look at alot of members descriptions of their beliefs at the bottom of their posts,these guys are "HUNTERS" scouring the forums for any thread that they can hijack & take over,they know from experience that nothing will be solved yet they are compelled to hijack yet another thread,both sides of the fence have amased massive collections of bookmarked data,white papers,google links ect for instant insertion into another arguement that they fuel.it was'nt an arguement until they joined the thread.

I say who cares, if you dont believe in cables,amps or whatever thats great,you have saved yourself a ton of money,just dont ruin the hobby for the people who do believe in or care about these things,if you cant answer the OP's question without hijacking the thread then move on.

I saw a news program some time back where a reporter managed to get some face time with a woman who makes her money selling books that espouse the health benefits of various vitamins, herbal products, teas and what not. The reporter specifically said to the woman that various claims she'd made have since been disproven scientifically. Her reply was that her recommendations didn't hurt anyone. While that may well be true, as well as the choice of a Synergistic cable, the simple fact remains that there are people who are making a living out of the ignorance of others and spout claims about performance without a shred of remorse or compunction to back them up let alone testimonials from people who may not even exist.

For all the cable" naysayers",have you EVER changed one high end cable user's belief's on the subject?Personally, yes. Some people are very uncomfortable though that their senses have betrayed them and simply go back. There is a comfort in one's beliefs especially when they can find other like-minded souls.
For the cable "believers",have you EVER proved your point to any of the naysayers?Jason Serinus attempted to do so with a test of $10,000 worth of cables vs. stock cables. He failed abysmally but categorically states that removed from the confines of having the identity of the cables hidden, he has since regained his discriminatory ability.

I say who cares, if you dont believe in cables,amps or whatever thats great,you have saved yourself a ton of money,just dont ruin the hobby for the people who do believe in or care about these things,if you cant answer the OP's question without hijacking the thread then move on.I agree with that to an extent when the discussion is among people who believe cables make a difference (in which case, I still think the tweaks forum is the place to go), but I disagree when someone posts "do speaker cables make a difference" or should I purchase speaker Cable A over speaker Cable B". Those people may care but to exclude an objectvist who believe competent cables don't sound different means a pretty one sided discussion.

Frankly, I think it all depends on what you spend on your system. I can't think of anyone who would buy Radio Shack interconnects, if they spent over $400K on their audio system. On the other hand, there's no point in using $16K Tara Labs interconncets on a Onkyo "Home Theater in a Box".

It's all relative.

Sure. I often draw the analogy that as one's discretionary income goes up, they buy better clothes, furniture, vacations, dishes, and all that other good stuff.

Frankly, I think it all depends on what you spend on your system. I can't think of anyone who would buy Radio Shack interconnects, if they spent over $400K on their audio system.
How about custom made Belden cables? They are substantially less than your boutique cables...
That being said, all things being equal, there is also an argument for audio jewlery, the question I guess is one be concerned about the cost ratio (considering it from the perspective of jewlery, my guess is no).

I agree with that to an extent when the discussion is among people who believe cables make a difference (in which case, I still think the tweaks forum is the place to go), but I disagree when someone posts "do speaker cables make a difference" or should I purchase speaker Cable A over speaker Cable B". Those people may care but to exclude an objectvist who believe competent cables don't sound different means a pretty one sided discussion.

I agree but only to a point, its not a discussion when a guy asks for info regarding Cable A vs Cable B, that is exatly what he should get,no need for anybody who dont have hands on experience with the 2 cables in question to even post a response,if they have direct info regarding the performance of the 2 cable's in question fine but to post in all the cable threads under the assumption that they are somehow educating the uneducated buyer is hijacking.

When someone posts "do cables make a difference" is a far cry from Cable A vs Cable B.

Another example of this is the phenomenon of people experiencing sound as being different when they place a photo of their sound system in the freezer (yes, they are believers of this practice). Does the freezer somehow affect the audio system by freezing the captured soul of the sound system? Unlikely. However, they individual in question has enaged in a ritual that has placed him/her in a particular state of mind that will affect their perception, thus why he/she perceives the sound as being different.

THAT is the most bizare story I have ever heard ! Wow ... ha ha ... I've accused people of such idiocy but never knew there was any solid proof anybody actually did that ! wow.


My whole impression of the mystical world of cables is that it is composed of 'actual' and 'emotional' components.

The emotional side of things allows a person to have a good feeling of solid comfort and personal pride. When I install work for customers, most of them didn't need to spend as much as they did on their cables to get the effect they wanted but there is certainly no harm in them paying more if it makes them feel better and more confident with their purchases.

The actual side of things - well a cable is a cable really .... the quality of the connections are important and the type of cable used is important. That's about the extent of it. In my experience, having studied some electronics - I feel as though no noticeable difference can be seen/heard with such short lengths of cable commonly used in home theater applications. A lot of people study meaningless specifications that don't even factor into the noticeable result. Most of the specifications relating to signal loss are for many many feet of cable ... not 4feet or 8feet lengths. BUT....if that gives them the warm fuzzy feeling ....
Yet I even find myself partial to a brand called "Neotech" ... I understand that I could make my own cables and get the same result and it would cost far less. For example, a component video lead will cost me under $10 to make but I feel better getting a pre-made Neotech cable for $75.
So I think the answer to "The Best Cable" question is the cable that gives you the best result is the best cable. The result you see/feel will depend on you being emotionally satisfied with the purchase. My $75 dollar cable makes me feel better about the result so therefore it is a better cable than the supplied ones or the ones I can make myself.
I suggest this to my customers when offering cables to them - "if you feel the more expensive one will suit you best, get that one"

Their argument is not that the individual listening is not experiencing cables differently, but rather the source of their differing experieces is unrelated to the pseudo scientific reasons provided by the cable manufacturers.

And exactly how do the objectivists KNOW that the "differing experieces [are] unrelated to the pseudo scientific reasons provided by the cable manufacturers"? I know about 3,000 Neuroscientists who would love to hear the methodology that would conclusively prove this to be true.

That is, the reasons the manufacturers provide can affect an individual's experience, but not because the electromagnetic properties of the cables have been sufficiently affected that they are now perceptible to human hearing, but rather they are perceptible because the brain is now acting like a filter affected by the pseudo science that is now guiding the beliefs of how sound should have changed. The purpose of science and DBT in this context is twofold: (a) track down the source of difference; (b) for those studying psychoacoustics, to determine the factors that affect the hearing experience, and how this takes place.

Again, as somebody that has actually DONE neuroscientific research, you cannot do double blind trials in this setting, it is impossible. The closest thing to this would be an ABX methodology. The very act of testing somebody's hearing has been demonstrated to reduce hearing accuity due to the sympathetic nervous system's reaction to being observed.

Another example of this is the phenomenon of people experiencing sound as being different when they place a photo of their sound system in the freezer (yes, they are believers of this practice). Does the freezer somehow affect the audio system by freezing the captured soul of the sound system? Unlikely. However, they individual in question has enaged in a ritual that has placed him/her in a particular state of mind that will affect their perception, thus why
he/she perceives the sound as being different.

I think we both understand that this sort of behavior is out of the norm. It is not out of the norm, however, for some people to perceive a difference when swapping out cables.

it also in many cases is not the objection to the boutique cable, but the manner in which said objection is presented.

"WHat, you use ___ cables... you much be a friggin idiot wioth more money than brains!"
(which when you think about it is an enviable position. I mean personally i would LOVE to have more money than brains.)

Jason Serinus attempted to do so with a test of $10,000 worth of cables vs. stock cables. He failed abysmally but categorically states that removed from the confines of having the identity of the cables hidden, he has since regained his discriminatory ability.

I dont believe in cables,ive stated that,were not talking about proving anything.

Lets look at the Maxx 2 thread,what was acomplished there,this guy isnt a newbie by a long shot,nobody steps up to the plate & buys an expensive speaker like that without being around the block more than a few times.

Can one person who participated in the arguement in the Maxx 2 thread point me to what was acomplished at the end of the day,the bulk of the posts in that thread have nothing to do with the question asked?

When someone posts "do cables make a difference" is a far cry from Cable A vs Cable B.
But an objectivist may have heard cable a and cable b and found no difference. It may have come in a DBT, too so he is to be excluded? Why? Or the person posting may not have heard either and he is being presented a choice by a dealer somewhere. I have seen several posts here where someone at a Best Buy (or a specialty store) is being told that Cable A (call it zip cord) isn't near as good as Cable B (call it Monster) and he comes to AVS and posts. Objectivists are prevented from posting on a thread like that? I am not talking about a cable lovers thead where someone who obviously thinks cables sound different and is asking which is better, I am talking about someone who is being asked to make a decision who does not know what he believes yet.

I didn't participate in the Max 2 thread, but I do think it was entertaining. I think there was more going on there than meets the eye and I don't think it really had that much to do with cables per se. Maybe the cable discussions should be limited to comparing cables that only retail over 20k :eek:

I mean personally i would LOVE to have more money than brains.)I don't believe you mean that. It didn't do Anna Nicole much good.

Are replies considered constructive, when the people replying don't have the same equipment?

The very act of testing somebody's hearing has been demonstrated to reduce hearing accuity due to the sympathetic nervous system's reaction to being observed.
Perhaps the reason is because their ability is not grounded in reality and their skills are more imagined than not. Besides, one doesn't need to tell people they're being tested or that a cable has been changed. It can be done without their knowing and so long as they don't know, they labor under different beliefs. Consider too that world records are only set under the rigors of competition. If your accuity is reduced, it might just be because it wasn't all that to begin with.

As far as what was accomplished in the Maxx thread, the poster said he'd try a Belden and report back. He already had his recommendations and course set out. As to what he found, maybe one day he'll post back.

Perhaps the reason is because their ability is not grounded in reality and their skills are more imagined than not.
Correct, as I have often pointed out Michael Jordan's ability didn't magically disappear just because he had to perform in front of a crowd. Yet evidently audiophiles skills only exist when tests aren't being done. Likewise evidently a five year old can really become invisible when they imagine it...but only when no one is looking.

Perhaps the reason is because their ability is not grounded in reality and their skills are more imagined than not. Besides, one doesn't need to tell people they're being tested or that a cable has been changed. It can be done without their knowing and so long as they don't know, they labor under different beliefs. Consider too that world records are only set under the rigors of competition. If your accuity is reduced, it might just be because it wasn't all that to begin with.

Firstly, this research was done in an internal medicine population in the setting of general auditory competency, not within and audiophile setting. I can only imagine that this "white coat syndrome" (which is the same phenomenon that raises blood pressure) may be worse in the audiophile setting.

Our auditory response to autonomic nervous system stimulation is almost a polar opposite of our musculoskeletal system's response to the same stimulation. This is why people scream like mad at hockey games and are mannerly at chess matches.

I appreciate the fact the latest issue of Widescreen Review starts a series on display devices by covering the physiology of vision. I wonder how many people will actually read and absorb this information which may actually provide some insight into why certain technologies appear they way they do.

Beyond vision, hearing is our next most complex sensory device. A baby's cry can cause a new mother to lactate. The sounf of a glass breaking will cause an increase in heart rate almost instantly. on and on and on...

This debate is analagous to using a sledgehammer to drive a tack into a plaster wall. The wide-strokes and clumsy pseudo-science are not going to solve the debate. The only solution, now, is for a consumer to listen and buy what they like.

I think that in reality the whole hi-end audio debate is is nothing more than thinly veiled class warfare not a an altrtruistic exercise.

And exactly how do the objectivists KNOW that the "differing experieces [are] unrelated to the pseudo scientific reasons provided by the cable manufacturers"? I know about 3,000 Neuroscientists who would love to hear the methodology that would conclusively prove this to be true...Again, as somebody that has actually DONE neuroscientific research, you cannot do double blind trials in this setting, it is impossible. The closest thing to this would be an ABX methodology. The very act of testing somebody's hearing has been demonstrated to reduce hearing accuity due to the sympathetic nervous system's reaction to being observed.
There is a boatload of research on this subject in psychoacoustics. When many people are referring to DBTs in audio, they are usually assuming an ABX type of methodology. Now as to the threshold of perception, again, research in the field of psychoacoustics has shown that humans can perceive a difference of .2 dB in DBT using ABX, that is a fairly small change in sound. Comparatively, when people describe cable differences, the changes described are dramatically greater than .2 dB.

BTW, can you provide any citations to refereed journals in which Neuroscientists have debunked the findings in psychoacoustics and human threshold of experience (especially as it pertains to cables, from your description it is fairly well established in the field) If you can, it would be appreciated.

I think we both understand that this sort of behavior is out of the norm. It is not out of the norm, however, for some people to perceive a difference when swapping out cables.
You are missing the point. We can al refer to times in the past when larger numbers of individuals believed in certain perceptions, yet this perceptions were later better explained by other theories, rather than the actual existence of said phenomenon. The popularity of an experience can speak as much about a peoples' discourse/paradigms as it can about the phenomenon's reality or lack-there-of. Just because the behaviour is less of a norm does not deny its experience by its praciticioners. Conversely, just because the other is more common does not inherently embed it with greater credibility when it performs in the same manner under psychoacoustic scrutiny.

NOTE, I'm not arguing the in-existence of the experience in question, and for that matter objectivists do not deny the phenomenological experience. The question at hand is which IV better explains the experience. Again, studies in psychoacoustics accounting for different IVs have shown in cable comparisons that the perception of a cable having being changed introduces a phenomenological change, even when the cable remained unchanged.
Conversely, changing the aesthetics of a cable while maintaining the same internal properties (or the reverse) also introduces effects into an individual's phenomenological experience. Again, what is the IV that is introducing the experiential change (as opposed to an actual acoustic change)? As you know, the Hawthorne effect is fairly well understood, and one can address that in their analysis, also it is possible to generally discriminate between IVs, DVs and CVs.
The psychoacoustics of expectation are fairly well understood in regards to cables, and have been shown time and time again to be more related to expectation than cable properties (assuming cables are operating within acceptable parameters). Again, your point of reduced acuity not withstanding, people in tests have been able to discriminate changes in .2 dB, and the claims generally made about cables are substantially more significant than a .2 dB change in sound.

Beyond vision, hearing is our next most complex sensory device. A baby's cry can cause a new mother to lactate. The sounf of a glass breaking will cause an increase in heart rate almost instantly. on and on and on...

This debate is analagous to using a sledgehammer to drive a tack into a plaster wall. The wide-strokes and clumsy pseudo-science are not going to solve the debate. The only solution, now, is for a consumer to listen and buy what they like.

I think that in reality the whole hi-end audio debate is is nothing more than thinly veiled class warfare not a an altrtruistic exercise.
And I believe that you engage in a lot of doublespeak and obfuscation that's not remotely relevant. Not only can the sound of a baby cause a mother to lactate, the sound of my voice can cause women's nipples to stand erect, ergo...speaker cables must sound different?

Guys like you can write 10 pages debating if poop really smells bad.

Apart from talent, developing accuity requires practice. Practice means taking the effort to learn what it is that you're trying to hone. If it's the sounds of distortion, then you need to work at hearing large amounts and gradually work your way down. If it's something else, then it's something else. Simply having spent a life listening without practicing can give one an over inflated sense of their capabilities. After all Roy Hobb's father told him that he had talent but it wasn't enough.

I think it's just a good idea for people not to tell other people what they can or can't hear based on what *they* can or cannot hear. One thing that makes me wonder - speakers have about 1000 times the distortion of other components. If we can get that down to a far lower level, do all the ancillaries suddenly become much more noticeable? Right now, it's hard to believe we can hear anything on the other side of a speaker when you see the distortion figures.

Well no need of A/C with QQQ around! Here's a picture to prove his statement.

http://www.theonion.com/content/files/images/onion_imagearticle2782.article.jpg

I'd like to read the study. Can you forward me a copy or provide a link?

You might want to check the work of Earl Geddes regarding distortion in speakers for some food for thought. Used to be up there on his website.

I think it's just a good idea for people not to tell other people what they can or can't hear based on what *they* can or cannot hear.
I don't think any intelligent skeptic bases their opinion on that any more than the fact that I can't bench press 300 lbs makes me think no one else can. On the other hand the guy that can bench 300 lbs doesn't seem to only be able to do it when no one else is observing.

Beyond vision, hearing is our next most complex sensory device. A baby's cry can cause a new mother to lactate. The sounf of a glass breaking will cause an increase in heart rate almost instantly. on and on and on...
Has little to do with the point in question. Those are merely examples of S-R.
This debate is analagous to using a sledgehammer to drive a tack into a plaster wall. The wide-strokes and clumsy pseudo-science are not going to solve the debate.
Your arguments have yet to establish this. In fact, ironically, you are now engaging in the same type of hyperbole that cable enthusiasts frequently seem to engage. You suggest that hearing acuity drops under test, and from that you suggest a pseudo scientific, sledgehammer methodology permeates psychoacoustic study. Yet you based this on what evidence? How about providing some facts that support the dramatic language your are using.

Do all people lose acuity? There is also evidence that people's experiential acuity increases under stress and it has been suggested it relates to our survival instincts, how does this relate to the findings you suggest? Assuming (the drop in acuity applies to all people (and if not, then it dismisses your claims of impossiblity), could you please state the refereed journal articles (and supporting further studies) that would suggest that it applies to all people. Moreover, could you state the level of acuity change? To demonstrate demonstrate your claim the drop of acuity suggested would have to be sufficiently significant to obscure whatever differences in sound some people are able to "hear". Again, problemeticing your claim is the descriptors used by the cable proponents are generally easily perceptible. Yet in psychoacoustic studies, people are able to discern a change in .2 dB in sound, yet the cable proponents can never identify cable changes better than chance in ABX studies (again, assuming cables are operating within parameters).

Beyond vision, hearing is our next most complex sensory device.

This statement IMO reflects a limited appreciation of how the chemosensory system affects mammalian behavior. Olfactory and gustatory stimuli routinely have profound effects on the recipient.

I agree with the OP, but this isn't just for cables in this area, it applies throughout any forum community.

I've gotten trapped into various hijacks and am ashamed of doing so. Why can't an individual state that I 'like/don't like/recommend/don't recommend X because of Y and Z' and leave it at that? If the OP wants you to expand upon your point, they will ask you to do so.

It is arrogance to drive your fact, belief, or opinion to the point of trying to convince everyone else that your way is the only way. State your preference, suggestion, or recommendation without attacks and move on. We must all be humble to everyone else.

In a different forum on this site, I've been stating, ad nauseum to some I'm sure, that people who believe, know, or feel, that there are profound differences in CD players, at least owe it to themselves to level match the players before making their personal evaluations. Those that have, even with a tool as crude as a RS SPL meter, have found that when they do so, the differences which once loomed as signficant, now became much less so. For some it's become quite subtle suggesting that if better level matching was done, they might become more subtle. If they then chose to do the evaluations unsighted, and that's a big if, they may come to other conclusions that may or may not be that the players are identical. At the very least, there are some now who realize quite clearly, that output levels of CD player differ signficantly and armed with that information, are perhaps better able to make informed purchacing decisions.

There is also evidence that people's experiential acuity increases under stress and it has been suggested it relates to our survival instincts, how does this relate to the findings you suggest?This is also dependent upon what the level of the stress is and how it relates to one's heart rate. There is a comfort zone for individuals where the senses sharpen quite well and decision making is enhanced. If you go past it, bizarre things start to happen. Maybe my next evaluations, if'n I get around to it, will include heart rate monitors. It'd be fun for me at least. I doubt my friends would enjoy it.

I don't think any intelligent skeptic bases their opinion on that any more than the fact that I can't bench press 300 lbs makes me think no one else can. On the other hand the guy that can bench 300 lbs doesn't seem to only be able to do it when no one else is observing.

Dude, I can easily bench 300 lbs. Hey, look at that dead bird! Hey, did you see me? That was awesome, well show's over :)

Sorry for opening up a can of worms. Life is too short or this stuff...

Sometimes I need a reminder why I should just lurk...

Sorry again!

I agree with the OP, but this isn't just for cables in this area, it applies throughout any forum community.

It is arrogance to drive your fact, belief, or opinion to the point of trying to convince everyone else that your way is the only way. State your preference, suggestion, or recommendation without attacks and move on. We must all be humble to everyone else.

Bingo,thats exactly what im talking about :) ,im totally stumped as to what would drive a person to spend so much time & effort to try convince everybody of "their beliefs" weather backed by science or personal observation & listening.

I dont buy into the whole cable deal or smart chips,bobo pebbles,magic dots,isolation racks for digital gear or any of that type stuff but i surely dont want to detract from the enjoyment the "believers" recieve from playing with these things.

My whole point is that if the bulk of anybodies posts in the forums are trying to show somebody "the light" who didnt ask then it becomes more trolling than enjoying the hobby with other like minded people,or even trying to help newbies.

there are two sides to the debate.

1. THings that are "night and Day" We definitely know enough about hearing and testing to be able to measure something that causes a night and day difference (insert "it sounded broken before" if you like) So when a statement like that is made, it must be discounted as far as the facts go because it has never been proven. Again... i am talking about the huge difference.

2. THings that add or remove gentle nuances. When we are talking about these areas, we are firmly in the perception area and debate is useless and silly.

And my previous comment about more money than brains assumed that my current massive amounts of brain power stay intact :D

Does this apply to all hobbies or interests?
What about the person who is a DIY'er into home improvement and is looking for something to soften the water and is talked into a device that goes around the water pipe and is said to change the chemical composition of the water and its elements?

What about the person who isn't feeling well and goes to a nutritionist cum naturopath who prescribes a particular vitamin and food regimen or that diagnoses them by reading their eyes, face, or cards?

What if your kid told you someone sold him a special bracelet that'd help him do better on all his tests and become a great student?

What about when Manny Alou and Jorge Posada tell you the reason they're great hitters is because they piss on their hands?

What about when the Health Ministers of countries such as South Africa, Zimbabwe, or Iran say aids can be cured with herbal supplements?

At what point must the whole world accomodate every crack pot theory so that snake charmers and men of reason become so politically correct that all take an equal place at the table and all truths become equal?

And I believe that you engage in a lot of doublespeak and obfuscation that's not remotely relevant. Not only can the sound of a baby cause a mother to lactate, the sound of my voice can cause women's nipples to stand erect, ergo...speaker cables must sound different?

Guys like you can write 10 pages debating if poop really smells bad.


QQQ

That is one of the few times I have seen you resort to ad hominem attacks... and you know your conclusions are not logical... I will leave at that but the points to me are well taken. In the other thread Greg also pointed in a different way that the findings of some DBT are far from definite all that they prove is that the subjects in question could not reliably, UNDER THESE CONDITIONS, reliably hear the differences; not that there are none or that no one would perceive them.

Heheheh, I'd give him a pass on pure entertainment value :)

But an objectivist may have heard cable a and cable b and found no difference. It may have come in a DBT, too so he is to be excluded? Why?

I didn't participate in the Max 2 thread, but I do think it was entertaining. I think there was more going on there than meets the eye and I don't think it really had that much to do with cables per se. Maybe the cable discussions should be limited to comparing cables that only retail over 20k :eek:

No,im not thinking of or recomending censorship this is about self control on the part of the obvious hijackers.

That Maxx 2 thread is the typical type of thread hijacking that im talking about,i followed that thread too, the thread made it all the way to a whopping 26 posts before it was derailed,then as usual both sides start with little digs at each other,then before you know it the OP had flew the coupe & it was an all out arguement by people who constantly argue the same thing on many different forums.

I thought the forums were supposed to be above all fun, for everybody,constant arguements & fighting might be some sort of twisted fun for some but for most people its a big bummer.

Bingo,thats exactly what im talking about :) <snip>
....
My whole point is that if the bulk of anybodies posts in the forums are trying to show somebody "the light" who didnt ask then it becomes more trolling than enjoying the hobby with other like minded people,or even trying to help newbies.

I agree

Does this apply to all hobbies or interests?
What about the person who is a DIY'er into home improvement and is looking for something to soften the water and is talked into a device that goes around the water pipe and is said to change the chemical composition of the water and its elements?

What about the person who isn't feeling well and goes to a nutritionist cum naturopath who prescribes a particular vitamin and food regimen or that diagnoses them by reading their eyes, face, or cards?

What if your kid told you someone sold him a special bracelet that'd help him do better on all his tests and become a great student?

What about when Manny Alou and Jorge Posada tell you the reason they're great hitters is because they piss on their hands?

What about when the Health Ministers of countries such as South Africa, Zimbabwe, or Iran say aids can be cured with herbal supplements?

At what point must the whole world accomodate every crack pot theory so that snake charmers and men of reason become so politically correct that all take an equal place at the table and all truths become equal?

C'mon now :rolleyes: ,all thats great but were not talking about vitimans,South Africa,Iran or aids or even piss, were talking about the intentional hijacking of threads by a few people who cant seem to understand that other people want what they want,enjoy what they enjoy & will buy what they want.

How many anti cable posts are enough to save the uneducated?

At what point does it stop being helpfull to newbies & become trolling for another fight?

Besides, if we took *that* attitude, all of high-end would simply collapse in upon itself........

QQQ

That is one of the few times I have seen you resort to ad hominem attacks...
I'm sorry Frantz, but there are just times that it gets too deep around here. This is not a complex issue. If I claim I can read the bottom line on an eye chart, it's pretty easy for the doctor to pull the eye chart out and determine if I can. If I can't there's no need to introduce Mother's lactating at the sound of a babies cry, psycho visual phenomenon, or the decline of the Roman empire into the discussion.

It's the decline of the Romulan empire that worries me.......

the sound of my voice can cause women's nipples to stand erect, .I will pay good money for that instructional video.

And my previous comment about more money than brains assumed that my current massive amounts of brain power stay intact :D
oh, ok :D

nobody steps up to the plate & buys an expensive speaker like that without being around the block more than a few times.I strongly disagree with this statement. Yes, the vast majority of people on this forum have taken the time to analyze and listen to every purchase. However, I know quite a few people with very expensive systems who simply walked into the dealer, wrote out a check for $XXXk and said "I want a high end system". It was purchased in the same manner as a piece of artwork or furniture... the owner bought based on visual appeal and name recognition (Robb Report or other high end publications). Note that I'm not talking about the OP... just in general.

Many science-oriented posters will steer clear of posts requesting cable recommendations. However, there are a few who feel the need to share their "knowledge" with the entire community on a continual basis. The exact same behavior can be found in the speakers forum by people who just got their <$1k speaker system (often narrowly avoiding a Bose purchase). These people will then proceed to bash anyone who owns Bose, secure in the knowledge that their decision is the right one and everyone else's opinion is not valid.

These types of thought patterns are prevalent around the world (politics, religion, etc., etc.). Humans want to believe in _something_... unfortunately a strong belief on a subject typically leads to a strong belief that the other side is wrong.

there are two sides to the debate.


2. THings that add or remove gentle nuances. When we are talking about these areas, we are firmly in the perception area and debate is useless and silly.

This is absolutely the crux of all of this and is valid. It would end there if that was all that was claimed or inferred from the claim but it is not. The claims are more like that there"is" a difference and the difference "is" due to the cable not that "I hear a difference myself so this is how I want to spend my money".

If I said my fuzzy dice made me feel safer in my car who are you to argue ? If I say my fuzzy dice makes cars safer, science comes and should.

Art

Bingo,thats exactly what im talking about ,im totally stumped as to what would drive a person to spend so much time & effort to try convince everybody of "their beliefs" weather backed by science or personal observation & listening.
From this sentence panhead, it seems that you're saying that anyone who makes repeated posts on either side of the divide to the general of 'what cable do you recommend' is a troll. Right? I presume that segues are also considered trolling? So, let's look at the maxx2 post where the reader asked for recommendations from other maxx2 owners.

By post #18, sportsdoc had indicated what his approach would be. oneobgyn, mikesyxthsense, and crna59 who actually have those specific speakers made their recommendations prior to #18. Technically, they fulfilled the request of sportsdoc, the OP although they were not using his amplification. Several others made recommendations based on what they currently use and listed what they have used in the past. By your criteria, those are trolls too. A few others told about demos they'd been to and again, since they don't own those particular speakers, those are also troll posts.

Since the question had been answered satisfactorily to the OP on the first page (he didn't post anymore and indicated that it'd be about a month before he conducted his own individual evaluations), the thread took a number of turns. You probably consider them as troll posts since they ranged from talk about kids, psychology, Maxwell's equations, wine, a few digs from either side, etc. With all due respect, according to your thoughts on this panhead, what was the point of anyone whatsoever posting after #18? You consider them trolling. Myself, I just consider it as relatively friendly conversational postings much as you might get in a bar when a few friends get together. If it ventured into not topic related postings, so what? Sportsdoc already said on #18 what his plan was, right? It didn't seem to me like he was scared away. He got his info, thanked everyone, and went off.

Adding to a discussion by saying "i have heard these, i know a guy who used these" is a contribution. You are providing feedback related to the original question.

Saying that "i have had the chance to audition high end cables against zip cord and i heard no difference, so i suggest that you try both with an open mind and in some sort of blind comparison" is also a contribution as you are providing feedback to the original question.

Saying that "you are a friggin idiot if you do anything other than use zip cord since we know everything there ever is to know about cables amps and speakers and there is no way that cables can make a difference" Is a troll and adds nothing to the discourse.

To play devil's advocate Dizzman, if one is a strong proponent that cables make an audible difference, then one generally ascribes to the position that it's a matter of matching and finding the right combination for a particular setup. I haven't reread the maxx2 thread in its entirety but it seems to me that that segues occurred once sportsdoc had indicated his course of action. I don't recall a preponderance of posts that struck the tone of "you are a friggin idiot if you do anything other than use zip cord since we know everything there ever is to know about cables amps and speakers and there is no way that cables can make a difference".

Saying that "you are a friggin idiot if you do anything other than use zip cord since we know everything there ever is to know about cables amps and speakers and there is no way that cables can make a difference" Is a troll and adds nothing to the discourse.

Not in so many words , I agree, but when the position is taken to just say fucck science the effects are real, then there is an equal lack of contribution to reasonable discourse IMO.

Art

Agreed. But that is usually once the conversation goes off the rails.
When the original post asks for recomendations, usually the one i mentioned come up far before the one you mentioned comes up.

THis of course could be almost any subject. Hijacking is not alone here.

If you think about it, it's kind of like going into a church and yelling "there is no God and you can't prove there is!". Even if you could argue a case either way, it's just bad form. Of course, with something as interesting/subjective/placebically different as cables, it almost doesn't make sense to take anybody's opinion but your own.

I have to admit that I like reading threads like the cable recommendation thread. I don't post there unless I fell strongly that I would have something to add because I know my opinions are not founded in fact and I can't prove that I can hear a difference. I am also of the belief that there is no equipment that can duplicate or test the the ability of the human audio system to resolve information (which I got flamed in the past for muttering).

What makes forums like this so much fun is that audio visual experiences are so subjective. If science could tell us what to buy, everyone would have the same equipment given a price point and to be honest, this hobby would become boring.

A better suggestion would be to keep it from getting personal. I don't like personal attacks and lose respect for posters who stoop to these tactics.

Otherwise, let's keep the discussions lively!

I agree with Dizz and John. The objectivist vs. subjectivst debate always devolves into two sides talking past, and not to, one another. It is akin to one side trying to force their faith upon another and inevitably the adjectives come into play. Read that Maxx2 cable thread. While no one used the exact language "friggin idiot" that Dizz suggested, there are several posts attacking someone for not having a "clue." Almost inevitably, such a thread continues to spiral downward, the thread becomes nothing more than wasted bandwidth, and the mods come in and shut it down.

Hi

You would all agree that the issue of Cables Threads Hijacking occurs too often; to an extent that many are very worrisome of asking any cable recommendations here... Go into any cable thread and you will find the very first reply will contain a warning expecting the thread to quickly deteriorate... I could research a few cable threads in the archives and this would be consistent: not in 2 out of 3 but rather a 99.99%...
I have not seen it in my 4 years on this forum, the so-called subjectivist AKA cable-believers deluging an anti-cable thread with their posts.

Alimentall

People sometimes need a starting point and that is what a recommendation is... Not an oder to comply. Be it cable , PJ or a screen (e.g Trg's screen thread). It is very difficult for some of us to audition a lot of equipment. In my travels I take the opportunity to audition sound systems but most of my States-side friends are audiophiles not videophiles. I get to listen to superlative audio systems but not so in video systems. I rely on this very forum for most things video, acquiring them often sight unseen... Ruby, Fujitsu Plasma, Lumagen Processor (coming), Toshiba A1, Sony BD Player, etc.. So it does make sense to take somebody's opinion, sometimes...

From this sentence panhead, it seems that you're saying that anyone who makes repeated posts on either side of the divide to the general of 'what cable do you recommend' is a troll. Right? I presume that segues are also considered trolling? So, let's look at the maxx2 post where the reader asked for recommendations from other maxx2 owners.

By post #18, sportsdoc had indicated what his approach would be. oneobgyn, mikesyxthsense, and crna59 who actually have those specific speakers made their recommendations prior to #18. Technically, they fulfilled the request of sportsdoc, the OP although they were not using his amplification. Several others made recommendations based on what they currently use and listed what they have used in the past. By your criteria, those are trolls too. A few others told about demos they'd been to and again, since they don't own those particular speakers, those are also troll posts.


More segues, You have been around the block a few times so im sure you know the difference between constructive posting & trolling for a fight,and yes,ANYBODY who is constantly on the look out for another cable thread to jump into just for the sake of yet another arguement is a troll,believe me im on the side of science on the whole issue of cables but others are not,why not let them enjoy THEIR HOBBY,why is it so important that every thread that mentions cables must be taken over and yes the Maxx 2 thread was taken over,over 300 posts in that thread & most were not directed to the OP's question.

Just so we are perfectly clear on what im talking about,a cable troll is a person who has zero personal experience with said cable/speaker/amp/preamp or any one single component asked about in the thread but has to jump in & repeat what they read somewhere or repreat what they have said in hundreds, if not thousands of other cable threads.

What i dont understand & never will is the sheer glee that others get from taking away the fun from those who believe in cables,science has nothing to do with that,its a self serving issue not science.

You have yet to answer the questions i asked you but instead responded with more questions to me.

1 How many anti/pro cable posts are enough to educate the uneducated .

2 At what point does it stop being helpfull to newbies & become trolling for another fight?

While the thread in question had 300+ posts, the OP got what he was looking for and bowed out after #18.

1) How many, I don't know. Even people who seemed to be pro repeated themselves or simply reitterated what someone else said earlier. When one is talking about the scientific aspects, a comprehensive reply might deal with R, C, L and indicate the amount of FR perturbation to be expected and contrast that with things like studies of Just Noticeable Differences. Further, it might also indicate studies where audible differences were found and under what conditions. Might also include aspects of the lossiness of human hearing and how simple changes in auditory focus lead to different presentations being heard. Might also include references to concious and subconcious biases. Might also include the story of how the president of Transparent publically stated he could tell the difference between his cables and zip cord then bailed when someone actually took him up on his challenge. How many paragraphs does that take? To me, it'll take a hell of a lot longer and appear to sound more confrontational than the person who says he heard the cables and had particular thoughts about how the music sounded.

2) Difficult to say although I don't think the OP was a newbie. It depends upon how thorough a person wants to be in their response. Myself, I don't generally prepare canned responses to questions.

I think people should be able to express their views. It is pretty hard then to keep emotions out of it. Frankly, that is why there are moderators on a privately owned board. It is their job, IMO, to keep it from getting out of hand. I don't think it is the participants jobs to stay out of expressing their views. Of course, everyone should be cordial but we are not in Utopia here and people hold strong views and to say that only objectivists hold strong views is denial in my opinion. Everyone knows here there also are some strong subjectivists on this forum who can get down and dirty with the best of them. I find it a little disconcerting that what some seem to be saying is subjectivists=nice and objectivist=mean. I find a dimissive attitude on both sides of this issue by some.

Chu

I am certain you got Panhead's point... YOU UNDERSTAND but are arguing for the sake of it. So be it ...

http://www.theonion.com/content/files/images/onionmagazine_1020.article.jpg

http://www.theonion.com/content/files/images/onionmagazine_1020.article.jpg
Yea, I think that was from either a Dover PA woman or a woman in KS :)

QQQ

That is so much out of Left field.... but you are forgiven...Man!! That is a fine looking woman.

Yeah, but don't ignore the headline in fine print at the bottom of that publication's cover. The self-proclaimed know-it-alls, with their smug, condescending attitudes, would benefit from being tied down and having someone pour some upside-down humility-argaritas down their throats. What would you think ought to happen to an elementary school teacher who repeatedly tries to educate his/her students by telling them they have no "clue"? (And, please, don't tell me that we're not dealing with 1st graders but rather with adults.)

QQQ

That is so much out of Left field.... but you are forgiven...Man!! That is a fine looking woman.

Just trying to lighten things up. These arguments do get tiring (even if I am sometimes guilty), don't they :)?

http://www.theonion.com/content/files/images/onionmagazine_archive_48a.jpg

http://www.theonion.com/content/files/images/onionmagazine_archive_47a.jpg

http://www.theonion.com/content/files/images/magazine_030606.article.jpg

http://www.theonion.com/content/files/images/onion_magazine_full.article.jpg

That's hilarious... :D :D :D :D But you see .. that is what I call trolling.. whenever it's a cable thread, you people find a way to derail it!! This was really sneaky :D :D
ROTFLMAO

OK, Q^3 & Frantz, we could play:
http://www.moderndrunkardmagazine.com/images/you-know-logo.jpg
I'll even go first:

... you honestly believe there will be a resolution in one of these threads to the on-going, ad nauseum, debate between the objectivists & subjectivists.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q100/curtpalme/wtfbp7.jpg

I think that I am going to throw up

Enough is enough

I am going to have a glass of Opus One which you subjectivists say tastes no different than E&J Gallo swill while this thread continues to take on a life of itself.

I am in the camp of the OP who started this one

I think that I am going to throw up

Enough is enough

I am going to have a glass of Opus One which you subjectivists say tastes no different than E&J Gallo swill while this thread continues to take on a life of itself.

I am in the camp of the OP who started this one


QQQ made my day with his Onion posting.. the lst series being a true gem.. What a riot I Laugh my a88 off and whenver I get back to his post .. Man!

OB

Anyhow I must tell you that you are wrong The objectivists claim that the earth is flat not the subjectivists...

There is alot of discussion coming at this topic from grossly different directions.

It seems odd to me, from the perspective of a psychoacoutician, that so much weight would be put on amplitude resolution when comparing two cable types. Unless someone has evidence to support that the defining difference between two cable types is a difference in amplitude replication, I would hesitate to treat this as such a simple relationship.

A little info on human amplitude resolution. As intensity increases, the difference in level required for discrimination decreases. At 20dB SPL our ability to distinguish level is about 1.3 dB. When level reaches 80 dB SPL, our ability improves and drops to .5 dB, largely independent of frequency. If such differences were present across cables we could simply look at transmission across the cable and draw conclusions.

We do tons of work looking at individual's preference of sound. To throw preference out the window in this arena is a huge mistake. So what if knowledge alters state? This is a fact that must be considered, because it is a statistically significant effect.

Even if we do see differences between two cables, who is going to make the judgement of preference? Are we going to draw the assumption that the more expensive cable is better? This makes me think of wine. If you prefer a $9 bottle, why are you spending $50 on a bottle that you don't enjoy as much?

To investigate this relationship, we could setup a task that uses a paired comparisons paradigm and evaluate both the preference and ability to judge difference within a mass of listeners. This would give us information for the average person, but we still have not judged your own preference. Who's to say where the answer is? I would just urge people not to simplify the relationship by trying to associate preference with finite measures of difference.

Finally, there was some mention of using neurologic measures to judge the differences discussed. At this point there are not any non-invasive methods of measuring a response that would be sensitive enough to identify such small differences in acoustic perception. There is some work being done in the area of Event Related Potentals (ERP) that may at some point be sensitive to more cognitive differences in perception such as these.

I Feel Love!
http://www.donna-tribute.com/pics/scavullo/ouatinside.jpg

Forget High priced cables... check out this insanity!!!!!
http://www.trumpsteaks.com/

Forget High priced cables... check out this insanity!!!!!
http://www.trumpsteaks.com/
Christ, what a Ho he is! :p

Forget High priced cables... check out this insanity!!!!!
http://www.trumpsteaks.com/

Gold Label Prime grade Angus Prime Rib (a rib eye is a boneless prime rib) is around $9 per pound wholesale......you do the math.

I think Maxim this month debunked the 'Kobe steak' burger. Any quality is taken out of the burger as soon as the meat is minced. Any marbling is removed which is what provides the flavor, etc.

So that $100 'Kobe steak' burger isn't really any better than a good old $8.00 burger elsewhere.

well, i do not totally agree curt. the kobe is maybe equivalant to a 15$ burger.

I think Maxim this month debunked the 'Kobe steak' burger. Any quality is taken out of the burger as soon as the meat is minced. Any marbling is removed which is what provides the flavor, etc.

So that $100 'Kobe steak' burger isn't really any better than a good old $8.00 burger elsewhere.

Well, there are different kinds of Kobe beef (like Angus). One comes from Japan, one from Australia and now one is produced in America. The American is way down in quality from the others but like Angus beef restaurants can now claim they have Kobe.
Grinding Kobe doesn't lose the marbling but what's the point? Kobe is known for being super tender, grinding any meat makes it tender. That's why they grind it. Duh

Why am I discussing meat on an audio forum?

They've named a burger after Kobe Bryant? That's going to bother Donald.

I ahve no idea what this thread is about anymore - but I thought this pic might add to it.

http://www.fototime.com/B8E0945EC3FD2FF/standard.jpg

Well, what about Kobe beef franks?

I personally have never tried one. Could never bring myself to order one at a steak house and have it use up valuable gastronomic real estate. Though I will still occasionally ignore all this is prudent and grab a NYC street vendor hotdog.

Mr Rubin

This would be the first time you would have to close a thread because of .... well you know ...irrelevance to the topic at hand....

What was the topic ?

Mr Rubin

This would be the first time you would have to close a thread because of .... well you know ...irrelevance to the topic at hand....

What was the topic ?
I think that this thread's devolution from the inital topic is a strong statement from AVS members who view any outrageously expensive pie-in-the-sky AV claims with a strong dose of skepticism (and humor). :p

We are willing to spend major coin to achieve nirvana.
We are not idiots.

IMO, arguing about cables is a big waste of time when there are clearly more important factors in audio to worry about such as room acoustics and speakers. Of course, hooking up a new pair of speaker cables is a lot easier than dealing with these other issues. It's nice to think that one could achieve better bass or imaging by simply swapping out some cables, but IMO that's a fantasy. When an expensive cable is substituted for a modest one, I think that the biggest change that occurs is not in the sound itself, but in the listener's perception of the sound.

Arguing about cables is *really* a big waste of time when you consider what a crossover does to the sound compared to even a couple thousand feet of wire.

IMO, arguing about cables is a big waste of time when there are clearly more important factors in audio to worry about such as room acoustics and speakers. Of course, hooking up a new pair of speaker cables is a lot easier than dealing with these other issues. It's nice to think that one could achieve better bass or imaging by simply swapping out some cables, but IMO that's a fantasy. When an expensive cable is substituted for a modest one, I think that the biggest change that occurs is not in the sound itself, but in the listener's perception of the sound.
I would say the biggest change is to the owners lighter wallet and the perp's fatter bottom line. :p

John Dunlavy used to screw with people that way, pretending to change cables and such and watching as people went on and on about the sound quality improvements. Funny that people rarely say "wow, that just got really worse". On the other hand, MITs can really make an audiblie difference, but that's hardly normal stuff considering it's got extra components.

FWIW my lab's 64 speaker array is run through 22 gauge wire. We ran replication tests and found that everything was within our tolerances. It's not ideal but we were limited by the width of our conduit.

http://www.galster.net/images/anechoic_small.jpg

I'm content with my Kimber at home. It's not outrageously expensive but it keeps me happy. While I will continue to upgrade components I have not been convinced that upgrading my cable would be worth the investment.

FWIW my lab's 64 speaker array is run through 22 gauge wire. We ran replication tests and found that everything was within our tolerances. It's not ideal but we were limited by the width of our conduit.

http://www.galster.net/images/anechoic_small.jpg

I'm content with my Kimber at home. It's not outrageously expensive but it keeps me happy. While I will continue to upgrade components I have not been convinced that upgrading my cable would be worth the investment.Who funds your research? Who are the primary users of the research?

IMO, arguing about cables is a big waste of time when there are clearly more important factors in audio to worry about such as room acoustics and speakers. Of course, hooking up a new pair of speaker cables is a lot easier than dealing with these other issues. It's nice to think that one could achieve better bass or imaging by simply swapping out some cables, but IMO that's a fantasy. When an expensive cable is substituted for a modest one, I think that the biggest change that occurs is not in the sound itself, but in the listener's perception of the sound.

I agree 100% about why people think they hear differences in cables,i like to measure the response from everything before i commit to buying it,ive spent enough time measuring responses from different amplifiers & cables that im convinced that cables are the least important link in the chain & not worth my time or money.

What gets my goat is how a few guys act so selfish over the whole issue,just because they know cables are hype they intend to post in every cable thread that they can find, on as many sites as possible,back & forth from site to site, searching for any mention of differences heard in cables,all in the name of science,its not science or anything resembling science,its self serving ideals being pushed in massive quantities by a few who get their jollies from the arguements, like a kid gloating over being right. :rolleyes:

All one needs to look at to see the pattern is any cable thread,the OP asks a question,a few guys respond with recomendations, then it starts,the same way every time, somebody (intentionaly) posts a subtle comment that leaves a window open for the cable trolls, then the banter starts, from the usual people, slowly building steam until the OP abandons the thread then its a free for all,this bait & hook process is repeated time & time again in every cable thread,all in the name of science.

I dont care what the topic is,if a person intentionaly looks for threads to join strictly in the hopes to expound on their veiws, at all costs, its not being scientific,its trolling. :eek:

FWIW my lab's 64 speaker array is run through 22 gauge wire. We ran replication tests and found that everything was within our tolerances. It's not ideal but we were limited by the width of our conduit.

http://www.galster.net/images/anechoic_small.jpg



That guy in the middle of the chamber looks like he is in major pain. I wouldn't trust his opinion - I don't see how he can be in a proper relaxed state of mind for serious listening with a metal stake sticking into his stomach that way.

Who funds your research? Who are the primary users of the research?

Our work is funded through grants from a wide range of institutions, including the NIH, Dept of Education, and private industry.

We maintain the rights to all of our data. I can't say specifically who uses it, we publish in refereed journals and present at conferences. Eventually the knowledge trickles down for clinical and consumer use.


That guy in the middle of the chamber looks like he is in major pain. I wouldn't trust his opinion - I don't see how he can be in a proper relaxed state of mind for serious listening with a metal stake sticking into his stomach that way.

Yeah, poor KEMAR really gets the "short end" of the stick on alot of our projects. ;)

Our work is funded through grants from a wide range of institutions, including the NIH, Dept of Education, and private industry.

We maintain the rights to all of our data. I can't say specifically who uses it, we publish in refereed journals and present at conferences. Eventually the knowledge trickles down for clinical and consumer use.

Thanks. Very interesting lab.

Just out of curiosity, are those 64 speakers in series/parallel, run 70 volt, or do they have a dedicated amp channel for all 64 speakers?

well, i do not totally agree curt. the kobe is maybe equivalant to a 15$ burger.


I haven't seen a $15 hamburger, but I have seen a 15lb hamburger:

http://www.dennysbeerbarrelpub.com/IMAGES/50POUNDER_000.JPG

A little info on human amplitude resolution. As intensity increases, the difference in level required for discrimination decreases. At 20dB SPL our ability to distinguish level is about 1.3 dB. When level reaches 80 dB SPL, our ability improves and drops to .5 dB, largely independent of frequency. If such differences were present across cables we could simply look at transmission across the cable and draw conclusions.
.


Frequency does alter JND levels according to this research paper, peer reviewed:

Florentine, Mary, et al 'Level Discrimination as a Function of Level for Tones from .25 to 16kHz. Journal of Acoustic Society of America, 81(5) May 1987, pg 1528-1541.


16kHz is way up there, 3 dB spl average.

But then, the bandwidth of the variation has an effect as well, 1/3 octave, 1 octave or wider:

http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_crit.htm

This is also from a Journal paper. It also supports the JASA paper as to frequency.

The type of signal will also affect JND: speech, simple tones, complex music, etc.

I dont care what the topic is,if a person intentionaly looks for threads to join strictly in the hopes to expound on their veiws, at all costs, its not being scientific,its trolling. :eek:

Precisely. The same clowns destroy every thread about cables, CDP and even amps. They are arrogant enough to think that somehow they know better and that everyone must conform to their beliefs. It's sad and a detriment to the boards.

Frequency does alter JND levels according to this research paper, peer reviewed:

Florentine, Mary, et al 'Level Discrimination as a Function of Level for Tones from .25 to 16kHz. Journal of Acoustic Society of America, 81(5) May 1987, pg 1528-1541.
16kHz is way up there, 3 dB spl average.

But then, the bandwidth of the variation has an effect as well, 1/3 octave, 1 octave or wider:

This is also from a Journal paper. It also supports the JASA paper as to frequency.
The type of signal will also affect JND: speech, simple tones, complex music, etc.

In reference to the Florentine article I stand corrected. I was referring to an earlier JASA pub, Jesteadt and colleagues (1977) Intensity discrimination as a function of frequency and sensation level.

I'm the first to admit that I over-focus on the speech spectrum and many of my opinions will reflect that.

It should be fully expected that intensity discrimination varies as a function of signal bandwidth and length of presentation. I can try to be more accurate in future posts, for the sake of brevity it can be easier to generalize. In consideration of these forums there would be more interest in the effects of broadband stimuli than pure tones.

Just out of curiosity, are those 64 speakers in series/parallel, run 70 volt, or do they have a dedicated amp channel for all 64 speakers?

The speaker array is managed by a Tucker-Davis Technologies multiplexer.

We have a script that automates signal presentation. Each speaker is run off an independent amp channel, we use Crown amps in this lab. At this point in time we have not had a study that requires more than 4 speakers to be run at a single time so we are able manage with two amps.

While the Anechoic chamber is visually impressive, our reverberation chamber is more acoustically interesting imho.

The objectivist have been waiting for ONE dbt that can show difference between cables that cannot easily be explained with easy measurement, and it have NEVER happen. Randi´can give 1 million dollar, but it looks like the sum is too low for all audiophiles ;)

So one can only draw one conclusion and that is there is only placebo in works. :cool:

The objectivist have been waiting for ONE dbt that can show difference between cables that cannot easily be explained with easy measurement, and it have NEVER happen. Randi´can give 1 million dollar, but it looks like the sum is too low for all audiophiles ;)

So one can only draw one conclusion and that is there is only placebo in works. :cool:

Ok...

....Randi´can give 1 million dollar, but it looks like the sum is too low for all audiophiles ;)



And psychics are not interested in financial rewards :D and, are not interested in proving anything.

Precisely. The same clowns destroy every thread about cables, CDP and even amps. They are arrogant enough to think that somehow they know better and that everyone must conform to their beliefs. .


And the snake oil sellers can confirm things? Please let one of these sellers explain how they beat physics. They didnt and they cant.

I will post in these threads because I hate to see hardworking people get taken. Its crap these cable seller know it and still dont care.

in view of your righteousness and desire to protect the innocent public, why dont you initiate action and take the so called 'fraudulent" cable makers to a court in america thru class action?

One thing that haunts me in these threads is the fact that the true believers often are engineers,physicians and others for whom trusting science and the scientific method is integral to their work yet they are so quick to throw it out the window or are even become defensive when science is mentioned as a means of testing the concepts to see if they might be applicable to the rest of us.

Art

What gets my goat is how a few guys act so selfish over the whole issue,just because they know cables are hype they intend to post in every cable thread that they can find, on as many sites as possible,back & forth from site to site, searching for any mention of differences heard in cables,all in the name of science,its not science or anything resembling science,its self serving ideals being pushed in massive quantities by a few who get their jollies from the arguements, like a kid gloating over being right. :rolleyes:

All one needs to look at to see the pattern is any cable thread,the OP asks a question,a few guys respond with recomendations, then it starts,the same way every time, somebody (intentionaly) posts a subtle comment that leaves a window open for the cable trolls, then the banter starts, from the usual people, slowly building steam until the OP abandons the thread then its a free for all,this bait & hook process is repeated time & time again in every cable thread,all in the name of science.

I dont care what the topic is,if a person intentionaly looks for threads to join strictly in the hopes to expound on their veiws, at all costs, its not being scientific,its trolling. :eek:
panhead, look at the recent posts. You did not start this thread to debate whether the objectivist or subjectivst position (or both) is correct. However, even your thread has been overtaken by trolls.

You did not start this thread to debate whether the objectivist or subjectivst position (or both) is correct.No, but he didn't exactly intend to start a big hug-fest, either. I mean just look at the title.

Hey Doc, I agree w/ you about the title. By the way, how's life in your new digs? And how's Dr. Demento treating you?

Arguing about cables is *really* a big waste of time when you consider what a crossover does to the sound compared to even a couple thousand feet of wire.
AGREE! I've been a tri-amp fan for years. Get those damned passive xovers out of the way! THEN start fiddling with the minutia.

I even bought 3 7-channel amps and the active xovers to go with them for my home theater with another amp for the subs.

No, but he didn't exactly intend to start a big hug-fest, either. I mean just look at the title.

A hug fest :D

You are correct though.

My whole intent right from the start (including the title) was to point out the obvious,and that is that these FEW GUYS are trolls,even though they hide behind science their postings & thread take over methods fit the description of an internet troll to a tee.

i agree with oneobgyn's quote of michael grant, in "feel the love"!!!!!!!

i've been involved in this wonderful world of sound, and now home theater for many, many years, and i have a very workable statement for me when it comes to commenting on cable preferences>

"WHATEVER FLOATS YOUR BOAT" AND MAKES YOU HAPPY IS FINE WITH ME

Hey Doc, I agree w/ you about the title. By the way, how's life in your new digs? And how's Dr. Demento treating you?The new digs are fine, though they're temporary until the real house gets built. As such my best listening environment is, sadly, my new car. Don't know what cables they used there :) Not that I need perfect sound to enjoy the musical stylings of Dr. Demento and his buddies...

One thing that haunts me in these threads is the fact that the true believers often are engineers,physicians and others for whom trusting science and the scientific method is integral to their work yet they are so quick to throw it out the window or are even become defensive when science is mentioned as a means of testing the concepts to see if they might be applicable to the rest of us.

Art

You're just a naive reactionary. I'll bet you still believe in gravity too. Get with it man, we're post-physics, didn't you know that? Objectivity is just a cultural construct.

:D :p

Besides, if we took *that* attitude, all of high-end would simply collapse in upon itself........

That would be a solution, albeit perhaps a temporary one until something else expen$ive is sold in the name of fidelity. Questionable products are IMO a plague in the high end. It happens in other industries (motor oil additives, dietary supplements) and I don't single out high end audio; I wish everyone would clean up but sales are sales and money is money.

...Romulan...

I have a great deal of hope for the Romulans, as it seems there is a small but persistent movement to move toward a reconciliation with the Vulcans.

as someone in the fields you mentioned, i completely agree....it actually turns my stomach. Actually, i dont care how they spend their money, I waste mine on radio controlled helicopters and deal with people saying "neat toy" all the time....what kills me is that they donate their money to these companies who's own advertisements are simply poorly written fiction....at least if they didnt use a random collection of words used in electronics/EE/science they would be marginally bearable (my favorite of all time is the notion that cables need to be broken in). Excuse me while i cotton swab the vomit out of my mouth.


One thing that haunts me in these threads is the fact that the true believers often are engineers,physicians and others for whom trusting science and the scientific method is integral to their work yet they are so quick to throw it out the window or are even become defensive when science is mentioned as a means of testing the concepts to see if they might be applicable to the rest of us.

Art

Exactly why do the haters believe that all people fall for advertising hype as opposed to actually listening and determining for oneself? Keep your worthless opinions about cables to yourselves unless someone asks. You do not know better than the person purchasing the gear. Get over yourselves.

Exactly why do the haters believe that all people fall for advertising hype as opposed to actually listening and determining for oneself? Keep your worthless opinions about cables to yourselves unless someone asks. You do not know better than the person purchasing the gear. Get over yourselves.
I'm not a hater, my opinions aren't worthless, people do ask, a double-blind study knows it all and I'll NEVER get over myself. :D

so why do i keep coming back to these 'train-wrecks' of threads and even read them?

i know they are beyond a waste of my time. and yet i'm here again 'lurking'.

what do i expect to see?......some sort of 'group hug' or pact or truce. i know better.

what does it matter what i hear? not a darn thing around here for sure. 'they' know better even though they have never taken the time to listen. i guess that makes perfect sense.

ok.......i feel better now.....thankyouverymuch. haveanicedayeveryone. movealong.

so why do i keep coming back to these 'train-wrecks' of threads and even read them?
Entertainment!

Exactly why do the haters believe that all people fall for advertising hype as opposed to actually listening and determining for oneself? Keep your worthless opinions about cables to yourselves unless someone asks. You do not know better than the person purchasing the gear. Get over yourselves.
Not all people do but there's enough to make it a business. You really don't think companies advertise and spend money on marketing without any expectation of return do you? Besides, if one's ears are so good, why do they need their eyes?

I don't want to fuel the fire but.......

Please explain to this physicican how anyone could design a proper large scale double blind study for cables? I'm certain I could find fault with almost any proposal. Besides, who really cares. It won't change anything no matter what the results show. If someone were to sneak into my house and change out my speaker cables, would I hear the difference? I doubt it but I still have expensive cables. I don't care what you think about that. It's like if you had two cups of coffee and one was a little sweeter than the other. When both cups are available to taste, you could tell which one was sweeter. If on the next day, I only gave you one of the cups, would you be able to tell me whether it was the sweeter one or not? I don't think so.

As a physician, how do you feel about what's gratuitously referred to as 'alternative medicine'?

I think we could go a long way to cooling off the high-end cable hysteria if we simply prosecuted companies that peddle fradulent, pseudoscientific twaddle to explain why their cables or other tweaks do what they do. We could proactively require that scientific explanations and measurements can be offered only if their audible effects have been documented in at least one article in a reputable peer-reviewed journal. (This doesn't mean the effects can't be in dispute, just that they are being subjected to standard review.)

I wonder how many of those companies would still be alive if all they could legally say was, "well, we really don't know why our cables sound better, you should just try them and see." Well, that perhaps and a few key impedance measurements.

Some companies are better in this regard than others, mind you, indeed, super-high-ender Nordost seems to be one of the least egregious vioators (though they aren't perfect).

Not all people do but there's enough to make it a business. You really don't think companies advertise and spend money on marketing without any expectation of return do you? Besides, if one's ears are so good, why do they need their eyes?

With regard to advertising, your argument has no merit. It's like saying because In-n-out advertises heavily it's really not good and people buy their burgers even though they taste the same as McDonalds because the advertising has brainwashed them.

With regard to eyes and ears, what makes you think you know what someone hears. If someone hears a difference with their eyes open, closed, or underwater, what difference is it to you? What makes you so special that you can impose your belief system on others?

At the end of the day, the fact that you personally, or others cannot hear a difference is irrelevant to the person who is buying the product; the only thing that matters is what the purchaser hears and you are not in a position to determine that.

It's like saying because In-n-out advertises heavily...No. It's like saying In-n-out advertises heavily... that their burgers have the power to cure numerous diseases. "There is a lot about our body's immune system that the medical community doesn't understand. But if you try these burgers yourself you'll find that your skin is clearer, your hair is softer, and you will cease getting hangovers from red wine."

How long would that last?

No. It's like saying In-n-out advertises heavily... that their burgers have the power to cure numerous diseases. How long would that last?

Sorry, you fail logic. It's akin to In-n-out saying that their burgers taste better, which they do.

Nobody's saying that companies can't advertise simply that their cables are better than other people's. They just can't peddle fraudulent science to explain why they do.

But I admit that my analogy wasn't the best, because it went beyond explaining why the burgers taste better to positing other effects. So yeah, cable companies aren't claiming their products cure disease :)

Let's try this instead: "In-n-out burgers are better because of quantum mechanical interactions that our specially treatead meat has with your tongue. Furthermore, we cryogenically treat our mayonnaise, and the result is that the oil molecules exhibit better coherence and better lubricate the food as it travels from the front to the back of your mouth."

This is from the PSAudio description of a power cable they sell.

Quote"Cleans while it powers"

Now how exactly does a passive cable clean something? Have the cable lovers answer that before anything else.Its a simple question about a claim they make.

Or this from another power cable. Quote"Improves performance of anything connected"

Really? Even my blender?


Thats not anything I have to hear to believe, its stated as a fact from these clowns with nothing to back that claim up.

What I believe:

Blindfold someone, feed him samples of McDonald's and In-n-Out and have him guess which is which. I'll bet he'll get it almost 100% of the time. Do the same with high-end cables vs. regualr cables. He'll do no better than chance. If you want to get fancy, don't tell the person administering the test which sample he's presenting. If you want to get fancy and control for age, sex, high frequency loss, etc., you could. But I think the results would be so overwhelming statistically you wouldn't have to.

I've never heard of this being done. Why? See Chu Gai's excellent one-liner above about alternative medicine. Same reason alternative medicine proponents don't do this. It would break their product.

Science isn't a belief system Bar81. And as far as In-N-Out advertising...well they do it because they make more money in the end doing so which is all I said. You don't really fall for all those silly infomercials now, do you?

no... they make more money because their burgers kick ass!

In the objectivist camp, there are two areas. One says i do not care what you peddle, just do not fill us with BS. DO not claim anything that cannot be proven somewhere, anywhere, sometime. No psuedo science, no BS. Just be honest and say that your cable seems to work better.

Then there is the camp that wants anybody with something that seems bogus to be prosecuted and shut down and those that use the products to be flogged in public.

So lets be clear which objectivist section we are in.

I've never been to an In-N-Out burger. All this talk is making me think I should :D

Hopefully, they'll open one up next to this place...

http://www.redbeet.com/images/halifax/lick-a-chick.jpg

I think we could go a long way to cooling off the high-end cable hysteria if we simply prosecuted companies that peddle fradulent, pseudoscientific twaddle to explain why their cables or other tweaks do what they do. We could proactively require that scientific explanations and measurements can be offered only if their audible effects have been documented in at least one article in a reputable peer-reviewed journal.

The lack of data has not always been detrimental to sales. Consider the dietary supplement industry, the cosmetics industry, or the numerous industries based upon metaphysical or spiritual beliefs. They all have sales and some are doing tremendously well.

Besides, it's IMO a waste of effort to try and regulate an industry based on magic cables and such. It's not like they're feeding on the poor and gullible anyway. I'd bet most people buying overpriced cables can afford it, or at the very least are convinced they can (I don't know if everyone considers the numbers in the bankbook meaningful with respect to the financial experience, the essence of the financial performance -- there may be many financial subjectivists too, after all...).

I think we could go a long way to cooling off the high-end cable hysteria if we simply prosecuted companies that peddle fradulent, pseudoscientific twaddle to explain why their cables or other tweaks do what they do. We could proactively require that scientific explanations and measurements can be offered only if their audible effects have been documented in at least one article in a reputable peer-reviewed journal. (This doesn't mean the effects can't be in dispute, just that they are being subjected to standard review.)

I wonder how many of those companies would still be alive if all they could legally say was, "well, we really don't know why our cables sound better, you should just try them and see." Well, that perhaps and a few key impedance measurements.

Some companies are better in this regard than others, mind you, indeed, super-high-ender Nordost seems to be one of the least egregious vioators (though they aren't perfect).

What I want to know is that if there is no scientific proof or theorys to back all the so called cable claims and no way to measure any difference and nobody has passed a double blind test then where do all these "inventors" of cables get their designs? Are they all privy to some scientific knowledge that no one else on the planet has?

I'm not saying I'm on one side or the other but just asking questions. Unlike another poster I do want to know if there is a real difference.

no... they make more money because their burgers kick ass!

Well, maybe but they started out by getting a cult following - mostly teenagers and people in their early twenties. It was cheap and good but the rebellion against the Empire (McDonalds) was also a big factor.

As a newcomer to In and out (10 years) i can say because it tastes way better.

And with cables... again, no data is fine... as long as you do not claim that it cures cancer.

Do not neglect the fries and shakes at In & Out, they are also very competitive. One reason they are so strong IMO is that their menu is very focused. They do a few specific things but do them well. Sometimes the lines are unbelievable.

What I want to know is that if there is no scientific proof or theorys to back all the so called cable claims and no way to measure any difference and nobody has passed a double blind test then where do all these "inventors" of cables get their designs? Are they all privy to some scientific knowledge that no one else on the planet has?
A design Jeff is often just a design. A way of making something that's novel or different. The idea is to think of something that no one's yet thought of then focus your spiel just on that. Or a design can be intended to solve a problem that's not really a problem.

The things is, you've got to find a hook. Something that makes your products stand out from the rest. Like Nordost's interesting zig-zag copper traces. Or wire that's oval, hollow, rectangular, square, triangular, different sizes, patterned differently...something. Most of them don't and can't do this on their own. They go to places like New England Wire and Cable, overseas, or other sources to companies that can provide them what they want and often suggest things from their own design departments. These outfits often not only draw their own wire but also have the capability of putting a variety of insulations on, in different thickness, colors, textures, you name it. Then they've got the machines that'll combine the wires just the way you want into very large spools.

The main scientific knowledge they have is that it's supremely difficult to design a bad wire and that carefully placed reviews along with freebies and testimonials is enough to get the ball rolling.

I was in the Bay Area again for about 24 hours last week. My first stop was In'n'Out burger.What I want to know is that if there is no scientific proof or theorys to back all the so called cable claims and no way to measure any difference and nobody has passed a double blind test then where do all these "inventors" of cables get their designs? Are they all privy to some scientific knowledge that no one else on the planet has?There are a couple of things twisted together here.

First off, it is quite possible to measure and/or quantify differences between cables. Check out Nordost's sales literature, or Audioholics reviews, for example. In many ways we can measure differences that are far smaller than we could possibly be audible. That's part of the difficulty, in that many of the changes do make detectable electrical differences, but not necessarily audible ones (at least once levels are matched).

Also, this is a guess here, but I personally think that there has been a sort of compounding effect going on in cable marketing. That is, someone comes out with some physical cable feature, such as oxygen-free copper or stranded vs. solid cabling, and in many cases other companies decide they need to make the same claim. There might not even be any malice involved: cable X gets a good review or two, or maybe they buy a set and like it themselves, and decide that their cable Y had better adopt those principles. Nevermind that they didn't really verify that those principles actually improve the sound.

So no I don't think they're privy to any real science that other's don't have, but I do wonder if the pseudoscience has grown and evolved withn their echo chamber.

I can build my own burger and it would destroy In & Out's burgers. Anyone who buys their burgers from a restaurant is stupid... they should realize that they can cook better food at home.

;-)

No, I can't :) But I am willing to believe that you can :)

No, I can't :) But I am willing to believe that you can :)

It seems you have become a kinder, gentler Dr. Grant since moving to Texas.
The harshness of the Bay Area has worn off :)


As a newcomer to In and out (10 years) i can say because it tastes way better.

Yes, Dizz, you can say it taste way better. I was just pointing out that there are many, many factors that make a business successful besides that it taste better. Like how they treat their employees and give them a decent wage and the employee training program that actually creates an enthusiasm to work there (when was the last time you saw that?). Alone with the food and other factors the family has made a very successful business all the way around.

Suggestion: try the double double with no salt - there's plenty already in the bun, sauce and cheese. I think you'll find that the taste of the meat comes through better.

Anyone who buys their burgers from a restaurant is stupid... they should realize that they can cook better food at home.

;-)

Apparently you haven't tried one of my burgers..;) I call it the Colonblow Special (name stolen from an old SNL skit) :D

I did not know you could order one with no salt. Is that on the secret menu?

And every time i go there i comment on the workers. Proof positive that you can pay a decent wage and still be profitable.

OK, i think that everybody can agree that a bunch of guys are here that do not use high end cables or agree with their useage(including myself),atleast one guy wants to vomit when he thinks of them :rolleyes:

This thread has been all over the place,from goofy hairdoo's to pancake helmet wearing rabbits to hamburgers.Still the question of "WHY" beg's to be answered,it has not been answered,what is the drive behind people chasing every cable thread on the forums & taking them over.

Cmon,somebody has to be able to answer with a real response,a response from themselves,not a response that only asks more questions,or a response thats vague or with multiple scientific references,a real response that reflects personal reasons as to what drives a person to become so taken over by the issue of cables that their mission is to seek out & destroy all cable threads,thousands of times,on multiple forums.

Guys who post thousands of negative responses to cable threads & the exposure of anything snake oil obviously have personal reasons & are driven to do so,unless they are being paid,which i doubt,its personal & i'd love to get an honest answer from one person .

If nobody wants to give a real response, i'll bow out & the thread can go back to hamburgers & bunny rabbits but i would love to know what "REALLY" drives you to do this.

I think it's as simple as this: the nature of the forum format demands a more verbose response than a simple (COUGH) (********) (COUGH).

Guys who post thousands of negative responses to cable threads & the exposure of anything snake oil obviously have personal reasons & are driven to do so,unless they are being paid,which i doubt,its personal & i'd love to get an honest answer from one person .

I, for one, am a pathetic loser who must somehow elevate myself above others by proving them wrong and myself right. And, it's so easy to do. My intellect and scientific training are both vastly supirior to others. My critical thinking is beyond reproach. I have no job and no friends. No one can stand to be around me (I really can't figure that one out) so I hang out on forums for some vestige of human contact. My grlfriend fled to LA and my cat's my only friend, and she doesn't talk (much). So hating on forums is all I got in life (besides my cat).

Aren't you the fortunate one?

I wonder how much of that sarcasm actually contains at least a kernel of truth for those panhead has correctly identified as trolls? Smugness and condescension certainly do not eminate from genuine care and concern.

“A sarcastic person has a superiority complex that can be cured only by the honesty of humility.” Lawrence G Lovasik

I would say that thread hijackers in general are anything but humble, rather more like know-it-alls, hence their insipid and annoying reliance on sarcasm.

I wonder how much of that sarcasm actually contains at least a kernel of truth for those panhead has correctly identified as trolls? Smugness and condescension certainly do not eminate from genuine care and concern.
Seriously, I do have care and concern. If you really do want to hear my story:

A friend was taken for $600k by scamsters. "You can't cheat an honest man" so she bears responsibility for sure, but this experience really soured me on snake oil men. She was told this (ponzi) investment scheme worked because "a bank, any bank can lend out up to 32 times their deposits" and that's where the vast returns for the uber wealthy and royalty came from.

This is a very carefully crafted statement, designed to SOUND correct to the financially ignorant is patently false. In truth, they can lend up to 32 times their RESERVES (actual multiple depends on the current reserve rate, of course), quite a different proposition.

There is much, much more to their scheme, of course. They were busted in Florida a few years ago and she lost all her money. It was a ponzi scheme. She cried for a week.

Granted, cables don't cost $600k, but $1k per foot for speaker wire??? Getting the passive crossover out of the way with a tri-amped system makes a real difference you can hear and is far cheaper. You loose phase distortion and insertion losses. What do you loose with expensive cables? I've had a very experienced friend offer me $20k for my Dynaudio and Altec based tri-amped home built speakers. It's the best he ever heard. He's a wealthy guy and believed in $1k per foot speaker cables before. Now he doesn't because the six conductors to each of my speakers were non-descript Radio Shack type cables. I do care.

Tri-amping's not for everyone though. It takes a surprising amount of adjustment and if it's not done right it rips the soundstage apart instead of improving it.

I wonder if some (hopefully few) of the protests against those that point out the "expen$ive cable" phenomenon is irrational might originate from victims. It's difficult to admit mistakes, especially when substantial financial loss is involved and the admission involves dealing with the knowledge that a situation and/or business entity has been misjudged. This would explain the defensive posture and even some (rare, thankfully) outright attacks against anyone that does not hold cabling in the same high regard.

If nobody wants to give a real response, i'll bow out & the thread can go back to hamburgers & bunny rabbits but i would love to know what "REALLY" drives you to do this.

I'll answer why I jump into cable threads with a vengeance, and I can probably answer for a few others here. Let me start by asking you to check out some of the threads that talk about other high end interests.

Don't get me wrong, while I make a decent living, I am not in the calibre of income of many here that have spent upwards of $100K+ on audio or video equipment. While my surplus collection of CRT projectors probably was worth well over $1 mil originally when new, I paid a fraction of that as with my reasonably decent audio systems throughout the house.

Part of the problem I have with some of the high end posters here is the somewhat snooty attitude that they come across with. the way I look at it, if you have a high level of disposable income, enjoy it, but it doesn't make you a higher level or person than someone of lower income. I might enjoy Grey Poupon, but I lke it at the Wayne's World level, not the Rolls Royce level if you know what I mean. I've met some great down to earth rich people. I've also met some complete a$$holes who won't give you the time of day. Certain select ones here come across as snooty...a$$es. We were all born identically: naked and screaming.

Part two: I come from a pro audio video installation background, similar but not quite at the level that someone here like Speco2003 is. We do however share similar views. I've installed many sound systems worth thousands of dollars, and have toured large venues and recording studios, etc. While these places use GOOD quality cables such as Canare, Belden, etc and follow things like proper grounding techniques, I have yet to see a foot of Nordost/Valhalla/etc in any of those places. Recording studios CREATE the sound recordings that we listen to. Why then must an end user spend thousands of $$ on cables when the recording studio hasn't?

Ditto for things like Monster power conditioners, sticky cork dots, green felt rings, etc etc. I call things as they are. Don't BS me. I've walked out of sales meetings in the past (Bose), when the sales rep told me that their sound systems worked on 'magic'. Don't snow me. I want technical details. I rip things apart to find out how they work, usually before I install them. When things break, I want to find out why. I therefore question things like speaker cables. I've read white papers that were laughable when they tried to explain why their speaker cables sounded better than others. I like to think that I have a pretty damn good knowledge about electronics and how they work. Much less so about the feng shui that apparently works better on high end systems. :p

Part 3- In my travels in home and commercial installations, I've seen many a case of 'fools and their money...'. I've gone in at times and corrected fundamental flaws in large sound systems to have the customer say 'man, my system has never sounded better, why couldn't the original company make it sound like that?'. My work has never involved replacing interconnect cables. Actually, I lie. Once I went into a large nightclub where every foot of speaker cable had been replaced with oxygen free cable 6 months earlier. The smoky environment had started eating away at the pure copper, and green corrosion had travelled up the cable about 3' at each end. We yanked it all out and replaced it with $.25/ft PVC jacketed 14 gauge wire. Worked great.

Does that answer your question?

Oh, part 4- sometimes I just like arguing with the guys on the polar opposite end of my thinking spectrum. Ones that tell me that something makes a difference, but they can't tell me why.

And finally part 5. I like to use the pancake bunny whenever things get way off track..

:)

Seriously, I do have care and concern. If you really do want to hear my story:

A friend was taken for $600k by scamsters. "You can't cheat an honest man" so she bears responsibility for sure, but this experience really soured me on snake oil men. She was told this (ponzi) investment scheme worked because "a bank, any bank can lend out up to 32 times their deposits" and that's where the vast returns for the uber wealthy and royalty came from.

This is a very carefully crafted statement, designed to SOUND correct to the financially ignorant is patently false. In truth, they can lend up to 32 times their RESERVES (actual multiple depends on the current reserve rate, of course), quite a different proposition.

There is much, much more to their scheme, of course. They were busted in Florida a few years ago and she lost all her money. It was a ponzi scheme. She cried for a week.

Granted, cables don't cost $600k, but $1k per foot for speaker wire??? Getting the passive crossover out of the way with a tri-amped system makes a real difference you can hear and is far cheaper. You loose phase distortion and insertion losses. What do you loose with expensive cables? I've had a very experienced friend offer me $20k for my Dynaudio and Altec based tri-amped home built speakers. It's the best he ever heard. He's a wealthy guy and believed in $1k per foot speaker cables before. Now he doesn't because the six conductors to each of my speakers were non-descript Radio Shack type cables. I do care.

Tri-amping's not for everyone though. It takes a surprising amount of adjustment and if it's not done right it rips the soundstage apart instead of improving it.
You're preachin' to the choir. As an attorney who for the last 20 years has only represented individuals, I can assure you I could post hundreds of anecdotes far worse than that quoted above. So what?

As for your having care and concern, I suspect many of the objectivists do. Again, so what? How do you express that care and concern? Do you tell your audience they don't have clue?

These are rhetorical questions. This thread was not started by panhead to debate whether there is or is not a difference in cables. This thread was not started by panhead to debate the proper protocols by which the existence of any differences, if any, may be established.

I'll repeat a couple of earlier comments/questions posted earlier in this thread:
What i dont understand is what drives these same small groups of people to argue the same old crap over & over again,site after site,just look at alot of members descriptions of their beliefs at the bottom of their posts,these guys are "HUNTERS" scouring the forums for any thread that they can hijack & take over, they know from experience that nothing will be solved yet they are compelled to hijack yet another thread,both sides of the fence have amassed massive collections of bookmarked data,white papers,google links etc for instant insertion into another arguement that they fuel.it was'nt an arguement until they joined the thread.
How many anti cable posts are enough to save the uneducated?

At what point does it stop being helpfull to newbies & become trolling for another fight?
The self-proclaimed know-it-alls, with their smug, condescending attitudes, would benefit from being tied down and having someone pour some upside-down humility-argaritas down their throats. What would you think ought to happen to an elementary school teacher who repeatedly tries to educate his/her students by telling them they have no "clue"? (And, please, don't tell me that we're not dealing with 1st graders but rather with adults.)

And, finally but most telling:
I agree 100% about why people think they hear differences in cables,i like to measure the response from everything before i commit to buying it,ive spent enough time measuring responses from different amplifiers & cables that im convinced that cables are the least important link in the chain & not worth my time or money.

What gets my goat is how a few guys act so selfish over the whole issue,just because they know cables are hype they intend to post in every cable thread that they can find, on as many sites as possible,back & forth from site to site, searching for any mention of differences heard in cables,all in the name of science,its not science or anything resembling science,its self serving ideals being pushed in massive quantities by a few who get their jollies from the arguements, like a kid gloating over being right. :rolleyes:

All one needs to look at to see the pattern is any cable thread,the OP asks a question,a few guys respond with recomendations, then it starts,the same way every time, somebody (intentionaly) posts a subtle comment that leaves a window open for the cable trolls, then the banter starts, from the usual people, slowly building steam until the OP abandons the thread then its a free for all,this bait & hook process is repeated time & time again in every cable thread,all in the name of science.

I dont care what the topic is,if a person intentionaly looks for threads to join strictly in the hopes to expound on their veiws, at all costs, its not being scientific,its trolling. :eek:

Perhaps what drives some to post the truth about cable$ is that irrational thought has been repeated and pressed to the extent that in some circles it is now the status quo. There's no reason to support an industry that's responsible for that situation. Also consider how disruptive cable discussions are to a user group -- if people "congregate" online to discuss how to improve their AV systems, isn't it logical to expect that they'd appreciate concrete information and frown upon metaphysical beliefs (even setting aside the cost of those metaphysical beliefs in physical money).

If something cannot be demonstrated one possibility is that it is a philosophy, not a physical fact, and the philosophy of cables in particular can cost a pretty penny while clogging discussions in its quest to perpetrate itself (a quest ironically enough sometimes supported by its victims, those that have lost their money -- I could "see it" if cable "designers" and shills were posting away, but in many cases its their customers).

Spiritual beliefs have invaded the world of entertainment electronics. Although this in and of itself can constitute entertainment, it also gets old fast and I suspect to some it generates dismay. I think people want to reclaim AV fan forums, and even the AV marketplace itself.

I'll answer why I jump into cable threads with a vengeance, and I can probably answer for a few others here. Let me start by asking you to check out some of the threads that talk about other high end interests.

Don't get me wrong, while I make a decent living, I am not in the calibre of income of many here that have spent upwards of $100K+ on audio or video equipment. While my surplus collection of CRT projectors probably was worth well over $1 mil, I paid a fraction of that as with my reasonably decent audio systems throughout the house.

Part of the problem I have with some of the high end posters here is the somewhat snooty attitude that they come across with. the way I look at it, if you have a high level of disposable income, enjoy it, but it doesn't make you a higher level or person than someone of lower income. I might enjoy Grey Poupon, but I lke it at the Wayne's World level, not the Rolls Royce level if you know what I mean. I've met some great down to earth rich people. I've also met some complete a$$holes who won't give you the time of day. Certain select ones here come across as snooty...a$$es. We were all born naked and screaming.

Part two: I come from a pro audio video installation background, similar but not quite at the level that someone here like Speco2003 is. We do however share similar views. I've installed many sound systems worth thousands of dollars, and have toured large venues and recording studios, etc. While these places use GOOD quality cables such as Canare, Belden, etc and follow things like proper grounding techniques, I have yet to see a foot of Nordost/Vahlalla/etc in any of those places. Recording studios CREATE the sound recordings that we listen to. Why then must an end user spend thousands of $$ on cables when the recording studio hasn't?

Ditto for things like Monster power conditioners, sticky cork dots, green felt rings, etc etc. I call things as they are. Don't BS me. I've walked out of sales meetings in the past (Bose), when the sales rep told me that their sound systems worked on 'magic'. Don't snow me. I want technical details. I rip things apart to find out how they work, usually before I install them. When things break, I want to find out why. I therefore question things like speaker cables. I've read white papers that were laughable when they tried to explain why speaker cables sounded better. I like to think that I have a pretty damn good knowledge about electronics and how they work. Much less so about the feng shui that apparently works better on high end systems. :p

Part 3- In my travels in home and commercial installations, I've seen many a case of 'fools and their money...'. I've gone in at times and corrected fundamental flaws in large sound systems to have the customer say 'man, my system has never sounded better, why couldn't the original company make it sound like that?'. My work has never involved replacing interconnect cables. Actually, I lie. Once I went into a large nightclub where every foot of speaker cable had been replaced with oxygen free cable 6 months earlier. The smoky environment had started eating away at the pure copper, and green corrosion had travelled up the cable about 3' at each end. We yanked it all out and replaced it with $.25/ft PVC jacketed 14 gauge wire. Worked great.

Does that answer your question?

Oh, part 4- sometimes I just like arguing with the guys on the polar opposite end of my thinking spectrum. Ones that tell me that something makes a difference, but they can't tell me why.

And finally part 5. I like to use the pancake bunny whenever things get way off track..

:)

Answered my question perfectly & with a real response,thank you.

BTW the pancake bunny head was kinda cool :D

I wonder if some (hopefully few) of the protests against those that point out the "expen$ive cable" phenomenon is irrational might originate from victims. It's difficult to admit mistakes, especially when substantial financial loss is involved and the admission involves dealing with the knowledge that a situation and/or business entity has been misjudged. This would explain the defensive posture and even some (rare, thankfully) outright attacks against anyone that does not hold cabling in the same high regard.

Well you might be correct about some believers not wanting to admit they got hosed but i assure you that is not the case with me,sure........i briefly bought into the cable deal & bought several used pair,i was not astonished with their performance & quickly resold them,if i lost any money the amount was so small i just chalked it up as a lesson learned.

Im not asking a question with this but i want to point out my interst in all of this,people want to believe in cables & they hear differences,or they really dont hear squat but since they spent a big fat sweaty wad of cash on a blue cable they want it to sound better,either way their mind's are made up so whats the use of trying to convince the unconvincable.

I'll answer why I jump into cable threads with a vengeance, and I can probably answer for a few others here. Let me start by asking you to check out some of the threads that talk about other high end interests.

Don't get me wrong, while I make a decent living, I am not in the calibre of income of many here that have spent upwards of $100K+ on audio or video equipment. While my surplus collection of CRT projectors probably was worth well over $1 mil, I paid a fraction of that as with my reasonably decent audio systems throughout the house.

Part of the problem I have with some of the high end posters here is the somewhat snooty attitude that they come across with. the way I look at it, if you have a high level of disposable income, enjoy it, but it doesn't make you a higher level or person than someone of lower income. I might enjoy Grey Poupon, but I lke it at the Wayne's World level, not the Rolls Royce level if you know what I mean. I've met some great down to earth rich people. I've also met some complete a$$holes who won't give you the time of day. Certain select ones here come across as snooty...a$$es. We were all born naked and screaming.

Part two: I come from a pro audio video installation background, similar but not quite at the level that someone here like Speco2003 is. We do however share similar views. I've installed many sound systems worth thousands of dollars, and have toured large venues and recording studios, etc. While these places use GOOD quality cables such as Canare, Belden, etc and follow things like proper grounding techniques, I have yet to see a foot of Nordost/Vahlalla/etc in any of those places. Recording studios CREATE the sound recordings that we listen to. Why then must an end user spend thousands of $$ on cables when the recording studio hasn't?

Ditto for things like Monster power conditioners, sticky cork dots, green felt rings, etc etc. I call things as they are. Don't BS me. I've walked out of sales meetings in the past (Bose), when the sales rep told me that their sound systems worked on 'magic'. Don't snow me. I want technical details. I rip things apart to find out how they work, usually before I install them. When things break, I want to find out why. I therefore question things like speaker cables. I've read white papers that were laughable when they tried to explain why speaker cables sounded better. I like to think that I have a pretty damn good knowledge about electronics and how they work. Much less so about the feng shui that apparently works better on high end systems. :p

Part 3- In my travels in home and commercial installations, I've seen many a case of 'fools and their money...'. I've gone in at times and corrected fundamental flaws in large sound systems to have the customer say 'man, my system has never sounded better, why couldn't the original company make it sound like that?'. My work has never involved replacing interconnect cables. Actually, I lie. Once I went into a large nightclub where every foot of speaker cable had been replaced with oxygen free cable 6 months earlier. The smoky environment had started eating away at the pure copper, and green corrosion had travelled up the cable about 3' at each end. We yanked it all out and replaced it with $.25/ft PVC jacketed 14 gauge wire. Worked great.

Does that answer your question?

Oh, part 4- sometimes I just like arguing with the guys on the polar opposite end of my thinking spectrum. Ones that tell me that something makes a difference, but they can't tell me why.

And finally part 5. I like to use the pancake bunny whenever things get way off track..

:)

Great post and for what it is worth, Curt is one of the more valuable people on the board when it comes to helpful information. Has helped me more than once diagnose a CRT problem.

... I have yet to see a foot of Nordost/Vahlalla/etc in any of those places. Recording studios CREATE the sound recordings that we listen to. Why then must an end user spend thousands of $$ on cables when the recording studio hasn't?...

Apparently you have not toured Skywalker Sound.


http://www.mitcables.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=54

Thanks Randy, I'm sure I'm not quite as helpful in this forum area..;)

(I've edited my post slightly to correct spelling and add a couple of words that I missed when I posted last night so the sentences make more sense..)

Skywalker also is said to use Shunyata as well as miles of Belden cable. Many companies receive compensation for the rights to mention their name like free cables. However, try and get a direct response from Skywalker or try and speak to any of the people mentioned about the cables or anything else. Good luck. BTW, 4 out of 5 vets recommend IAMS and that's when it had melamine in it. Also, Daisy Fuentes uses Pilates.

Skywalker also is said to use Shunyata as well as miles of Belden cable. Many companies receive compensation for the rights to mention their name like free cables. However, try and get a direct response from Skywalker or try and speak to any of the people mentioned about the cables or anything else. Good luck. BTW, 4 out of 5 vets recommend IAMS and that's when it had melamine in it. Also, Daisy Fuentes uses Pilates.

I was involved in recordings at Skywalker Ranch in the mid 90's. I can attest there were no high priced cables in the signal path at that time. The producer was very anal about everything.

And... what's wrong with Pilates? It's excellent physical therapy/exercise based on body weight resistance. Do we need to open another thread on this? :D

Only if you post pictures of Daisy..;)

from curt's observation, is it now safe to conclude that corroded ofc speaker cables have audio differences from cheapo copper cables and easily pass any dbt?

I didn't hear any differences, but when I see green corroded cables, I replace them. Period.

:)

BTW, the replacement wire was tinned, so it wouldn't corrode.

The same guy that installed those OFC speaker cables also did the most horrendous job of supplying $8K of hand soldered interconnects of esoteric cables. Cold solder joints everywhere, tiny strands of wire everywhere. THose all got replaced as well.

As a final insult, he told the customer that every connection had to be crimped, not soldered on the OFC. That's not really an issue, as he supplied crimps, but then used standard pliers to squeeze the crimps shut. He then put lbs of electrical tape on the crimps. One crimp didn't hold and came loose under all of that tape, and he then told the club that one of the 18" woofers was blown, at a recone cost of $300. I pulled the splice point apart, crimped it properly and smiled at the club owner. The old tech got canned on the spot and I maintained the club system for the next 2 years until they shut down.

I do not understand the violently closed minds and arrogant sarcasm that exists in this world in general, but especially here, at a hobby forum, dedicated to the most human and subjective of creation's gifts - namely sight and hearing.

I appreciate the instinct to "protect," but I do not understand the arrogance. Why not just be open to the possibility that their may be SOME things that we currently cannot explain or measure away. I just do not understand the incessant, almost primate like desire to be "right." Why is it so important to be "right"?

Is it arrogance? Is it low self esteem?

Perhaps it is disdain for what some may view as dubious marketing practices. But if this were the case, why not focus their energy at industries whose eggregious marketing practices have been documented to cost lives -- not just a few bucks. (e.g., biopharma)

As a humorous aside, here is the proposed diagnostic criteria for the new disorder: Flamer Personality Disorder (FPD). Ask yourself -- do you suffer from FPD? I think I have seen several here over the last 10 years that qualify for sure.

FPD Symptoms:
1.Namecaller: This defines the flamer. "Flamer" means "namecaller"

2. Competitive/argumentative: flamers are fighters; verbal brawlers. We greatly enjoy arguments for their own sake, and will start flamewars intentionally.

3. Amoral: we think that our insults, verbal abuse, character attacks, and even death threats are perfectly acceptable behavior, once "justified".

4. Vengeful: flamers believe that once an insult has been received, it becomes perfectly acceptable to return the insult, or even to embark on a longrunning insult stream.

5. Deceitful: we see nothing wrong with deception and distortion as long as we're not caught.

6. Narcisstic: we have extreme vanity, taking the form of an exquisite sensitivity to anything which even SLIGHTLY resembles an insult.

7. Paranoid: we flamers constantly display secretive behavior, being careful to never freely discuss personal info about our schooling, experience, everyday lives.

8. No self-doubt. Perfect people never monitor themselves to avoid mistakes.

9. Self-blind: No insight into our own flaws and foibles.

10. Hypocritical: totally enmeshed in a self-serving bias: "when I do something, it's a pure and justified deed, but when you do exactly the same thing, it's a shameful and disgusting PLOY."

11. Self-important: we have a very low opinion of others, and an exalted (if dishonest) opinion of ourselves.

12. Denying/projecting: We cannot see reality honestly, but must constantly manipulate it by erasing some parts and distorting others.

13. Pervasive, long-standing, intense symptoms.

Many of these characteristics are shared with many personality disorders in general.

The objectivist v subjectivist debate has raged since the dawn of Western Civilization. I doubt that this debate will be solved here -- ever. So why not just leave it alone?

Very valid points ELM. Take a peek (maybe someone can link) on an old post from a year or two ago about doing a double blind test that could once and for all prove or disprove that cables make a difference. The flame war and arguments that ensued about HOW to do the test were ridiculous. The esoteric believers more or less said that any double blind test would be flawed due to the switching involved to instantaneously switch out cable lengths via a relay box which is what I would do in a test like this.

You end up having the guys that don't believe (like me) challenging the guys that do believe, and it just never results in anything happening.

Thanks Curt.

I'm familiar with the thread you reference. And yes it is nearly impossible to create a blinded trial to study cables. However, it is not impossible... just EXTREMELY difficult.

Robert Harley has an excellent treatment of this whole issue in his "Complete Guide to High End Audio" ("The Roll of Critical Listening", AES 1991).

You end up having the guys that don't believe (like me) challenging the guys that do believe, and it just never results in anything happening. [Emphasis added.]
Precisely.

http://www.moderndrunkardmagazine.com/images/you-know-logo.jpg
... you honestly believe there will be a resolution in one of these threads to the on-going, ad nauseum, debate between the objectivists & subjectivists.

Cuts both ways though doesn't it ELM?

Chu

I'm not sure what specifically you mean... but in general I agree that yes, most things do cut both ways.

Apparently you have not toured Skywalker Sound.


http://www.mitcables.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=54


Correct my friends Leslie and others in Skywalker have at one point used these cables. It was a complete case of being a free ride for the cables in exchange for advertising.I know that for a fact. And it happens with us all the time. We use one companies microphones on tour because they GIVE them to us in exchange for exposure of the product. The same thing happens with guitars,drums,etc....

[QUOTE=ELMitz]

I appreciate the instinct to "protect," but I do not understand the arrogance. Why not just be open to the possibility that their may be SOME things that we currently cannot explain or measure away.
QUOTE]


Because AUDIO is PHYSICS and not one snake oil salesman has changed that.

What I meant ELM was that the various points you listed are equally applicable whether you're a subjectivist or objectivist or whatever term you want to use.

Correct my friends Leslie and others in Skywalker have at one point used these cables. It was a complete case of being a free ride for the cables in exchange for advertising.I know that for a fact. And it happens with us all the time. We use one companies microphones on tour because they GIVE them to us in exchange for exposure of the product. The same thing happens with guitars,drums,etc....

I was responding to the posters supposition that
"I have yet to see a foot of Nordost/Vahlalla/etc in any of those places."

I was not commenting on the circumstances of their use, only that they are/were in fact there...

[QUOTE=ELMitz]

I appreciate the instinct to "protect," but I do not understand the arrogance. Why not just be open to the possibility that their may be SOME things that we currently cannot explain or measure away.
QUOTE]


Because AUDIO is PHYSICS and not one snake oil salesman has changed that.

I do not understand your point. Are you suggesting that we humans know EVERYTHING there is to know about physics?

We humans know a lot about how to manipulate perceptions and pass bull$hit off as something palatable.

I don't understand why objectivists are called "arrogant" when for the most part they are the first to admit human bias and that the senses can be "fooled".

I think the claim of arrogance is based on the fact that the objectivist position is prefaced on the their belief that only science can/should inform opinion.


It seems to me that if someone admits they make mistakes, it hardly can be called arrogant.

I agree, but what I see in general is a very suprior tone and sarcastic language to most of the objectivists posts. I do not see much humility, do you?

Contrast that with someone "who knows what they hear"-well I guess I am confused (easily in many cases).

I do not understand the logic of this statement. Are you saying that outside of the scientific method, nihilism reigns?

I do not understand the logic of this statement. Are you saying that outside of the scientific method, nihilism reigns?

Yes.




(just kidding, just trying to be a s-disturber) :D

However, I do usually want proof if a scientific method isn't used to determine an outcome. That's just my nature. Which I guess means I want scientific backup. So I guess my answer is yes. I think. Usually.

I think the claim of arrogance is based on the fact that the objectivist position is prefaced on the their belief that only science can/should inform opinion.
I'm not sure where you're going with this ELM with respect to the whole cable thing. Are you saying that all opinions carry equal weight or is it something else?

Chu,

Something else...

Just curious, why are you so persistent in combatively stringing along this hopelessly insolvable argument?

Probably the same reason I give my 'local' hospital a hard time when they have a Reiki practitioner in to give a seminar and coupons for services that can be performed on the hospital premises. Or urge successfully to have my local plumbing store remove the snake oil gadget that you place around the pipes to deal with hard water and scaling from the shelves. Or discuss with my sister-in-law, a teacher mind you, why she thinks there's signficance to the numbers 9 1 1. A bunch of stuff like that. Not that I mind expensive cables. Not at all. It's the claims and the invocation of gobble-di-gook scientific terms and just the lousy methodology. It's like what Houdini tried to do with all the psychics, of course they went to Congress to protest.

I do not understand the violently closed minds and arrogant sarcasm that exists in this world in general, but especially here, at a hobby forum, dedicated to the most human and subjective of creation's gifts - namely sight and hearing.

You say you don't understand the arrogant sarcasm, yet in your statement you use phrasing with... religious overtones that are by no means universally held human ideals.

If I were to start threads on this board regarding some semi-commonly held metaphysical beliefs (example: there's someone invisible up in the sky, I talk to him, and he does things for me, he can for you too, plus my organization gets tax-free status in the US -- but the only part of all that anyone can prove is that we're tax-free) I'd be called a spammer at the very least. (If in doubt, I invite anyone to go for it and see what happens to your account).

In contrast, if someone states a piece of wire has the power to alter the performance of an AV system but the properties cannot, should not, or could not be measured, this is somehow not metaphysical spam? What I actually find remarkable is the level of tolerance toward snake oil that people in the hobby do display. I guess there's so much around many have become desensitized. All this does is reduce signal:noise despite attempts to get reason involved again.

You know, I'm willing to accept the premise that there's some property that can't or isn't being measured. At that point, the power of this wire can be tested by any number of objective means for its subjective abilities.

I agree, but what I see in general is a very suprior tone and sarcastic language to most of the objectivists posts. I do not see much humility,

One of my big problems is the superior tone & i do believe its intentional because its too common place.

It was nice to finally hear somebody tell the truth & say they follow these threads just because they think cables are bs & not hide behind science with circle talk.

Here is what we come down to.

THe following quote is from the MIT website;
True story. 7-8 years ago we had a pair of speakers that we could not sell. The MIT rep stops by and say "try these out and tell me what you think". Well I put them on the speakers that were gathering dust and my god they sprung to life! Bass was lifelike, open mids, and the top was significantly smoother. The speakers and cables sold within one week. The next week we became a dealer. Great product. No snake oil, this stuff works.
Peter Freeman, Sales Manager, Audio Concepts, North Attleboro, MA

If a difference is this dramatic, we are either infusing the speakers with magic pixie dust to make it do things it could not do before... OR the signal reaching said speakers is now different.

Can anybody argue that statement? If the sound is RADICALLY different... we can measure that. You can argue subtle nuance all day long. I can even buy that there are aspects of the entire hearing and processing path that we either do not completely understand or have not yet figured out what to measure (please note i did not say cannot measure, i said have not figured out what to measure) But to have a radical difference, then guess what... we have that part nailed down.

So, all i ask is tell me what the cable did.

If I were to start threads on this board regarding some semi-commonly held metaphysical beliefs (example: there's someone invisible up in the sky, I talk to him, and he does things for me, he can for you too, plus my organization gets tax-free status in the US -- but the only part of all that anyone can prove is that we're tax-free) I'd be called a spammer at the very least. (If in doubt, I invite anyone to go for it and see what happens to your account).

Amen to mass psychosis!

Probably the same reason I give my 'local' hospital a hard time when they have a Reiki practitioner in to give a seminar and coupons for services that can be performed on the hospital premises. Or urge successfully to have my local plumbing store remove the snake oil gadget that you place around the pipes to deal with hard water and scaling from the shelves. Or discuss with my sister-in-law, a teacher mind you, why she thinks there's signficance to the numbers 9 1 1. A bunch of stuff like that. Not that I mind expensive cables. Not at all. It's the claims and the invocation of gobble-di-gook scientific terms and just the lousy methodology. It's like what Houdini tried to do with all the psychics, of course they went to Congress to protest.

I often have the same concerns as you regarding some of the aforementioned things, but I do not feel the "offenders" must be "set-straight." Opinions are like butt-holes...

Here is what we come down to.

THe following quote is from the MIT website... {SNIP}

Ever notice how almost anything prefaced with "True story" turns out to be very questionable?

Amen to mass psychosis!

"Amen" indeed. Crowds and repetition can be persuasive. One problem with cable$ is the leap of faith required; one way $alesmen have apparently gotten around it is brute force repetition and some sort of peer pressure.

You say you don't understand the arrogant sarcasm, yet in your statement you use phrasing with... religious overtones that are by no means universally held human ideals.

What does this mean?

If I were to start threads on this board regarding some semi-commonly held metaphysical beliefs (example: there's someone invisible up in the sky, I talk to him, and he does things for me, he can for you too, plus my organization gets tax-free status in the US -- but the only part of all that anyone can prove is that we're tax-free) I'd be called a spammer at the very least. (If in doubt, I invite anyone to go for it and see what happens to your account).

In contrast, if someone states a piece of wire has the power to alter the performance of an AV system but the properties cannot, should not, or could not be measured, this is somehow not metaphysical spam? What I actually find remarkable is the level of tolerance toward snake oil that people in the hobby do display. I guess there's so much around many have become desensitized. All this does is reduce signal:noise despite attempts to get reason involved again.

Wow...

ELM, I do not share the same willingness to be all-inclusive with respect to various matters as you do. For example, are you aware that in some European countries there is a movement to have homeopathic concoctions included in the national health care programs that are funded by the citizens?

Randi said the following...
I think that one of maladies of our age is this attitude, held by many otherwise intelligent people, that there are somehow "alternatives" to truth. There is an insidious concept that science is just "one way" of looking at things, and alternative schools of thinking some how should be granted equal validity, even though they are based on ideas and beliefs unfounded in reality and calling for an outdated and disproven model of how the universe works. Remind me, have we just entered the 21st or 11th Century?

[QUOTE=speco2003]

I do not understand your point. Are you suggesting that we humans know EVERYTHING there is to know about physics?


Again I will ask what have the snake oil sellers done to change the physics in the cables they sell versus any other?

Again answer how a passive power cable from PSAudio can "clean" the AC?

They make the claim not me.

Chu,

I agree with you in regards to healthcare but in regards to speaker cable... nahh.

When the government starts spending taxpayer dollars on ineffectual or unproven therapies, I will be right beside you.

But we are talking about Drs/JDs/CEOs spending discretionary dollars on cable, not a pensioner cashing in their 401(k) on crystal therapy for their colon cancer.

There are shades of grey not just black/white.

Opinions are like butt-holes...Imperforate anus :)

Well hell ELM, we already have Chiropracters under the umbrella. Again, I'm not railing against the spending of discretionary dollars on cables. It's the claims whether by the companies or their minion of reviewers coupled with bogus science. It's like spam. Erosion of critical thinking happens in lots of ways and I wouldn't mind seeing our youth schooled a bit more in this area.

[QUOTE=ELMitz]


Again I will ask what have the snake oil sellers done to change the physics in the cables they sell versus any other?

Again answer how a passive power cable from PSAudio can "clean" the AC?

They make the claim not me.

To more clearly answer your question, my response is that given the current understanding of physics and the current capabilities of measuring tools, the cables may not be doing one thing to the signal. I don't know or care.

For what I do know is that Music Direct offers a 30 day return policy on all of their cables, power conditioners, etc. which gives me ample time to listen to various products in my system. After 30 days of critical listening I KNOW if something sounds better/same/worse to me. And to me, that is all that matters.

What I do not understand is why my personal perceptions regarding my audio gear matters to you or anybody else?

So it appears Chu and others are trying to educate and you are saying, it is my money, opinion, so keep yours to yourself? The problem is this is a forum where people express their opinion/knowledge.

I doubt Chu and others care what your personal perceptions are, but how personal are they when they are posted on a forum?

[QUOTE=speco2003]

To more clearly answer your question, my response is that given the current understanding of physics and the current capabilities of measuring tools, the cables may not be doing one thing to the signal. I don't know or care.

For what I do know is that Music Direct offers a 30 day return policy on all of their cables, power conditioners, etc. which gives me ample time to listen to various products in my system. After 30 days of critical listening I KNOW if something sounds better/same/worse to me. And to me, that is all that matters.

What I do not understand is why my personal perceptions regarding my audio gear matters to you or anybody else?

Your personal perceptions only matter if someone on a public forum would ask for advice. Telling them that you heard a profound sound and that the snake oilers claims are true with nothing to back either claim is a problem. As long as you state it as opinion then fine but when people take up the flag of these bogus sellers then we have issues. When some noob comes looking for advice and answers he needs the truth not bogus claims.

And although you may very well hear something being different you also need to understand why you may hear something different. The mind plays alot of tricks on the ear and its been shown many times to be true.

Also once again you missed the point of the claims made ie the power cable. I notice not one person has been able to step up and back that claim in any way.

Well hell ELM, we already have Chiropracters under the umbrella.
I know it's a tangent but please do not tell me you are lumping chiropractic in the same category as crystal therapy. Honest science - not the kind supported by the AMA, for example - would not support such a proposition.

Honest science - not the kind supported by the AMA, for example - would not support such a proposition.I am not sure I understand this sentence. Are you saying the AMA does not support honest science or something else?

I find more value in my chiropracter and in Acupuncture when i have sore neck/back issues than another preseciption for $%*&$ Vicodin.

The comparison though is more similar than many realize.

While doctors may not always teach it, the human body has AMAZING abilities to heal itself. Are these flukes, power of positive thinking, cleansing ourself of free radicals... etc? WHo knows. all we know is that in some cases alternative medicine can work wonders. IN SOME CASES.

And just like has been beaten to death... knowing that a speaker is in SLIGHTLY the wrong place can colour the listening experience. So it could be moved an imperceptible amount and to the listener, it sounds worlds better.

And guess what, he is right. So saying;
Telling them that you heard a profound sound and that the snake oilers claims are true with nothing to back either claim is a problem.

Is not an issue. All you are doing is saying that you had the same experience. And there is nothing wrong with that.

Where this argument goes off the rails is seperating Mike L. Saying that he finds a difference with his new widgets, and the manufacturer stating that it modifies the Space-Time continuum by inserting dilithium crystals into the power cord.

One is opinion, and to say anything other than "i have all the same gear and my experience was very different" is silly. It is experience and his alone.

And as everybody points out... most of these darn things have pretty good return policies. So if you do not like it, return it.

THe other side is when the pseudo science gets pulled out, or the "we cannot measure an audio signal precisely enough" crap gets run up the flagpole.

Once that happens... FAIR GAME DUDE!

I often ask myself why it is I get sucked into these black-hole unsolvable debates at all. I guess it is becuase I have a glimmer of hope that the un-scientifically-washed masses would understand what all the great scientists throughout history have -- that science is nothing without intuition and vice versa.

However, it dawned on me that my desire to enlighten/broaden others in this forum finds its root in the same sarcastic caustic arrogance that so many others spew here as well.

I hate to admit defeat, but I guess Arthur C Clark was correct when he said:

"It is really quite amazing by what margins competent but conservative
scientists and engineers can miss the mark, when they start with the
preconceived idea that what they are investigating is impossible. When
this happens, the most well-informed men become blinded by their
prejudices and are unable to see what lies directly ahead of them."

I am not sure I understand this sentence. Are you saying the AMA does not support honest science or something else?

Read "The Serpent and The Staff" for an interesting look inside the AMA...

While doctors may not always teach it, the human body has AMAZING abilities to heal itself. Are these flukes, power of positive thinking, cleansing ourself of free radicals... etc? WHo knows. all we know is that in some cases alternative medicine can work wonders. IN SOME CASES.

!I was kind with you till the end there. My opinion is that the body does have amazing abilities (but then again we could start an evolution debate here :eek: ). My pediatrician friend admits that in most cases the kids brought to see him would get well by themselves without even seeing a doctor. BUT getting well without medicine or doctors, to me, is not alternative medicine at all. In fact, that is why IMO, alternative medicine seems to work, the body is just doing what it does in most cases anyway. I am not of the opionion that alternative medicine works wonders (unless it is routed in science in which case I am not sure I call it alternative medicine) As far as overprescribing medicine, I think that is what the public wants. That being said, I religiously take my Crestor :)

I don't have a problem with chiropractic per se other than two times I went to one, I got no immediate improvement and since I got over the neck pain anyway, how can I ascribe it to my "alignment".

Chi

I am somewhat repeating a previous post here:

I know you DO understand the OP and Elmitz points. The elliptic analyses on health Care and the likes have nothing to do with an individual who has enough discretionary income to invest in an expensive cable... That his/her choice...

Panhead point was to just leave the persons inquiring about cable alone, not to saturate his/her threads with your beliefs... that they be based on science or not, YOU chose to believe.... Some other people may have made a different choice and by the way they are not necessarily stupid or need to be schooled by you or others. These persons are not asking to be saved.

I often cite the example of the TID (Transient Inter-modulation Distortion) where some people did pay attention to the fact that the SS amps of the day (1970-eras) did not sound as good as Tube amplifiers of yesteryear. If one was to only trust measurements the old SS were "better" by all measured (not necessarily all measurable) parameters... Someone noted the difference and did try to assign a scientific explanation to it. They did not refute the existence of the phenomenon simply based on the fact that their current set of measurements did not substantiate such differences. The scientific response was to acknowledge that there might be something to investigate not to just throw it out of the window. As non-existent having written this I am bowing out...

Read "The Serpent and The Staff" for an interesting look inside the AMA...Is it unbiased? :)

Elmitz: It is really quite amazing by what margins competent but conservative
scientists and engineers can miss the mark... (blah blah blah)Bring out the violins! What a load of melodrama that has absolutely nothing to do with this debate. I'd put money down that Arthur C. Clake wouldn't sign onto high-end cable nonsense. It is no accident that he co-authored, with James Randi, "An Encyclopedia of Claims, Frauds, and Hoaxes of the Occult and Supernatural".

There is no mystery here, ELMitz. It is objective fact that many of these cable companies use bogus science, whether intentionally or otherwise, to market their products. It is also an objective fact that many of the claims made by these manufacturers magically disappear when studied under actual controlled conditions; and others are readily explained by bulk impedance differences.

When audio companies stop putting out utter crap like this (http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina64.htm), the trolls will pretty much dry up. They can still sell the exact same cables, just stop trying to justify their impact with pseudoscientific nonsense.

Frantz:They did not refute the existence of the phenomenon simply based on the fact that their current set of measurements did not substantiate such differences. The scientific response was to acknowledge that there might be something to investigate not to just throw it out of the window.FrantzM, it's simply not true that their current set of measurements didn't substantiate the differences. One very important set of measurements did: controlled listening tests (http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?tp=&arnumber=1163343). This link is to a paper published in 1980 in a peer-reviewed journal; here's the abstract:The threshold of audibility of TIM distortion was determined for 68 subjects representing all categories of listeners, from musicians and sound engineers to the average man on the street. Three different music samples were used, and controlled amounts of distortion were produced with a digital stereophonic TIM generator. Two basic experimental methods were used to obtain the approximate threshold, after which the reliability of the detection of the distorted passages was verified with a time localization test. The results show that the audibility varies very much depending on the music sample, listening media, and person. The most sensitive group of listeners could reliably perceive 0.5 percent of momentary TIM. Low values of TIM were generally perceived only as slight changes in the tonal character of the sound, and not as distortion. In a number of cases, a preference was found for the slightly distorted sound.That's just one example, I am sure there were others... I saw a link to a 1976 technical report from Finland, for example.

Bring out the violins! What a load of melodrama that has absolutely nothing to do with this debate. I'd put money down that Arthur C. Clake wouldn't sign onto high-end cable nonsense. It is no accident that he co-authored, with James Randi, "An Encyclopedia of Claims, Frauds, and Hoaxes of the Occult and Supernatural".

There is no mystery here, ELMitz. It is objective fact that many of these cable companies use bogus science, whether intentionally or otherwise, to market their products. It is also an objective fact that many of the claims made by these manufacturers magically disappear when studied under actual controlled conditions; and others are readily explained by bulk impedance differences.

When audio companies stop putting out utter crap like this (http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina64.htm), the trolls will pretty much dry up. They can still sell the exact same cables, just stop trying to justify their impact with pseudoscientific nonsense.Well said. And frankly, some of the high end cables are really cool looking and cool looking is worth some money and that value is relative. I have paid more money than normal for speaker cable not because I thought it had one wit of better performance, but because I thought it made my system look better. If anyone asks, I say I bought it for just that reason.

Of course, there's something to be said for build quality and connection quality! That's why the good folks at Audioholics tend to recommend cables a cut or two above stock.

Is it unbiased? :)

I thought it was a reasonably well done piece of ivestigative reporting.

pilfered from Amazon.com

Chicago Sun Times reporters Wolinsky and Brune argue that what is good for the American Medical Association (AMA) is not necessarily good for the public or its health. Since the AMA is a doctors' organization, few readers will be surprised by the authors' revelations of conflicts of professional vs. public interests. The authors provide an overview of the AMA, discussing its organization and membership and how it works; its political "wheeling and dealing"; and some of its less altruistic actions regarding alternative (i.e., nonallopathic) medicines, Medicare, and the tobacco and drug industries and its ethical waverings on health issues such as abortion and AIDS. They write that "the AMA is a cheerleader for just enough reform to avoid a major overhaul" of the U.S. healthcare system. Recommended for healthcare and public policy collections.
James Swanton, Albert Einstein Coll. of Medicine, New York
Copyright 1994 Reed Business Information, Inc. --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.

From Booklist
Chicago newsmen Wolinsky and Brune document well the major political activities of what they call the "American Doctors Association" in support of its own financial and organizational health. The AMA, they claim, is more interested in doctors' salaries and privileges than in the care of patients. Doctors' ownership or interests in laboratories, diagnostic facilities, pharmacies, and other health-related work have drawn them away from their profession and into business. Battles against other medical groups, such as those for homeopathy and chiropractic, also have been carried on for financial reasons rather than for the improvement of care. Besides presenting their case, Wolinsky and Brune etch good characterizations of the major AMA spokespersons over the years. The product of many interviews, thorough grounding in the literature, and knowledge of important, leaked internal reports, their book is a contribution to both health-care history and the current health-care reform debate. William Beatty --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.

What I do not understand is why my personal perceptions regarding my audio gear matters to you or anybody else?You personal perceptions regarding your audio gear matter not one iota to me and I don't think that was ever an issue that I can recall. Further, I could care less what you own and how you select your gear for yourself. Given what you do and what you're aware of, I'd be a bit surprised if you did things like sighted cable evaluations.
Regarding a 30 day evaluation period, I take it you're aware that a grace period is a legal requirement in many areas of the country. Even if not, many places offer it, including outright frauds, simply to remain competitive and to create the aura of legitimacy and integrity.

One of my big problems is the superior tone & i do believe its intentional because its too common place.Having worked with scientists and engineers I can tell you that many of us have a hard time keeping our mouths shut when we hear something that we 'know' to be false. Having said that, I'd like to think that most of us behave ourselves (either by not responding or by responding in a nice manner). Most of the bashing can be attributed to 2-3 people. However, if someone asks "does cable matter" then you bet that the science / engineering crowd will give their opinion.

So, all i ask is tell me what the cable did.Dizzman, the MIT story is likely true. These cables have drastically different measurements (vs zip cord)... primarily because there is a large passive filter (aka 'network box') on each end. This audibly and measurably alters the signal.

I am not sure I understand this sentence. Are you saying the AMA does not support honest science or something else?
Randy, it is well known that the AMA, in the case of chiropractors, was not in the least bit interested in honest science. Prior to the filing of a lawsuit against, amongst others, the AMA in 1976 for violations of the Sherman Antitrust Act, the AMA had been operating under a written goal to "contain and eliminate" the chiropractic profession, essentially for the sole reason that it viewed the chiropractic profession as a competitor. In fact, in the early 1960s, the AMA changed their cannon of ethics to make it unethical for any MD to associate with any DC in any way (e.g., no referrals to a DC and no acceptance of referrals from a DC). The AMA essentially held this position until 1983 and viewed chiropractic as an "unscientific cult".

The AMA specifically set out to destroy the credibility of chiropractic by telling MDs and medical students that chiropractors were like "killers and rabid dogs".

To support their boycott of chiropractors the AMA solicited the help of the JCAH (Joint Commission on Accreditation of Hospitals) to adopt the same eithical restraint of affiliating with chiropractors.

Mike Wallace did a 60 minutes piece on chiropractic in 1979, 1 year before the 1976 lawsuit went to trial, and he was unable to find a single MD to discuss the anti-chiropractic position.

The case eventually went up on appeal before the 7th Circuit Court of Appeal in Illinois. On appeal, the Court held the AMA was guilty and issued a permanent injunction against the AMA. The decision was essentially affirmed by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1990.

It was not until 1992 that the AMA formally revised their ethical canons to permit a MD to associate professionally with a DC

However, it dawned on me that my desire to enlighten/broaden others in this forum finds its root in the same sarcastic caustic arrogance that so many others spew here as well.
Of course, the above is not sarcastic caustic arrogance? As to how you've enlightened anyone regarding cable evaluations, I haven't read anything yet regarding your methodology. Did I miss something? BTW, ever been to that museum of Questionable Medical Devices up in Minnesota?

Frantz, the amps that sounded poorly also measured poorly provided people actually made measurements. Now, if you can find some hard evidence...something in print or that you've scanned, it'd be wonderful to look at.

Of course, there's something to be said for build quality and connection quality! That's why the good folks at Audioholics tend to recommend cables a cut or two above stock.
And that's why I recommend an annual visit to Hooters!

THe issue is that while that MIT does do somethign since it has all sorts of magic smoke in the box, they do not seem to be able to explain it in any real scientific terms.

Randy, it is well known that the AMA, in the case of chiropractors, was not in the least bit interested in honest science. Prior to the filing of a lawsuit against, amongst others, the AMA in 1976 for violations of the Sherman Antitrust Act, the AMA had been operating under a written goal to "contain and eliminate" the chiropractic profession, essentially for the sole reason that it viewed the chiropractic profession as a competitor. In fact, in the early 1960s, the AMA changed their cannon of ethics to make it unethical for any MD to associate with any DC in any way (e.g., no referrals to a DC and no acceptance of referrals from a DC). The AMA essentially held this position until 1983 and viewed chiropractic as an "unscientific cult".

The AMA specifically set out to destroy the credibility of chiropractic by telling MDs and medical students that chiropractors were like "killers and rabid dogs".

To support their boycott of chiropractors the AMA solicited the help of the JCAH (Joint Commission on Accreditation of Hospitals) to adopt the same eithical restraint of affiliating with chiropractors.

Mike Wallace did a 60 minutes piece on chiropractic in 1979, 1 year before the 1976 lawsuit went to trial, and he was unable to find a single MD to discuss the anti-chiropractic position.

The case eventually went up on appeal before the 7th Circuit Court of Appeal in Illinois. On appeal, the Court held the AMA was guilty and issued a permanent injunction against the AMA. The decision was essentially affirmed by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1990.

It was not until 1992 that the AMA formally revised their ethical canons to permit a MD to associate professionally with a DC
Interesting.

Randy, it is well known that the AMA, in the case of chiropractors, was not in the least bit interested in honest science. Prior to the filing of a lawsuit against, amongst others, the AMA in 1976 for violations of the Sherman Antitrust Act, the AMA had been operating under a written goal to "contain and eliminate" the chiropractic profession, essentially for the sole reason that it viewed the chiropractic profession as a competitor. In fact, in the early 1960s, the AMA changed their cannon of ethics to make it unethical for any MD to associate with any DC in any way (e.g., no referrals to a DC and no acceptance of referrals from a DC). The AMA essentially held this position until 1983 and viewed chiropractic as an "unscientific cult".

The AMA specifically set out to destroy the credibility of chiropractic by telling MDs and medical students that chiropractors were like "killers and rabid dogs".

To support their boycott of chiropractors the AMA solicited the help of the JCAH (Joint Commission on Accreditation of Hospitals) to adopt the same eithical restraint of affiliating with chiropractors.

Mike Wallace did a 60 minutes piece on chiropractic in 1979, 1 year before the 1976 lawsuit went to trial, and he was unable to find a single MD to discuss the anti-chiropractic position.

The case eventually went up on appeal before the 7th Circuit Court of Appeal in Illinois. On appeal, the Court held the AMA was guilty and issued a permanent injunction against the AMA. The decision was essentially affirmed by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1990.

It was not until 1992 that the AMA formally revised their ethical canons to permit a MD to associate professionally with a DC
This has almost nothing to do with science, but rather business and law. It clearly has nothing to do with audio cables. What point are you trying to make?

This has almost nothing to do with science, but rather business and law. It clearly has nothing to do with audio cables. What point are you trying to make?
The answer to your question is right there in the last two pages of this thread for you to read:

Chu made a comment about chiropractors. I asked Chu if he was lumping chiorpractors into the category of "alternative" medicine such as crystal therapy, because science would not support such a position. I prefaced my question to Chu by acknowledging: "I know it's a tangent". Randy asked me a follow up question and I responded to Randy, who posted his acknowledgment of my response.

Moreover, it has everything to do with "science", albeit not about the "science" of audio cables. It was proved, at least in the case of medical care, that science is in the eyes - er, pocketbooks - of the beholders. Science was being intentionally manipulated by the AMA, akin to the "science" behind audio cables in the marketing literature, and clear and concrete evidence of the science behind chiropractic care was intentionally withheld.

I asked Chu if he was lumping chiorpractors into the category of "alternative" medicine such as crystal therapy, because science would not support such a position.Are you sure? Many chiropractors do make a lot of scientifically unsupported claims about their practice. Not that Wikipedia is a trusted resource, but if we are to believe it, or at least one of its cited sources (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic#_note-mcdonald), "In 2003, 90% of chiropractors believed the vertebral subluxation complex played a significant role in all or most diseases." In other words, 90% subscribe to the truly "alternative" theories of chiropractic care. It does, in fact, sound like a worthy tangent to this thread... There are quite a few interesting links from internal and external critics of chiropractic medicine, such as this article (PDF file) (http://jmmtonline.com/documents/HomolaV14N2E.pdf) from a DC.

I was just about to post something like that Michael. In our small town, I've seen chiropracters claim to cure just about anything, including gallstones.